Yesterday the governor of Illinois ordered all business between the state and Bank of America halted until the labor problem in Chicago is settled. Today he's not just indicted but apparently taken into custody for corruption.

Coincidence?

Never invest in anything with "Sun" in its name. (This is an old rule; late 90s at least.)

Today he's not just indicted but apparently taken into custody for corruption

Same deal as Spitzer.

And there's still no official explanation for why the original birth certificate released on Obama's site was a composite of two different real certificates.

I suspect there's more to this game with Paulson and Treasury than appears on the surface.

And there's still no official explanation for why the original birth certificate released on Obama's site was a composite of two different real certificates.

Please be kidding

I suspect the ID stealer has struck again.

Didn't someone here have their checking account kicked out by Suntrust?
NorkaWest | 12.09.08 - 11:25 am | #

That was several days ago, but I can't recall the thread. I'm still wondering what was going on there (assuming they were not just pulling our leg).

He claimed to have a minimum of $10,000 in his checking account at any given time. I couldn't figure out why such an account would be closed by the bank.

Yesterday the governor of Illinois ordered all business between the state and Bank of America halted until the labor problem in Chicago is settled. Today he's not just indicted but apparently taken into custody for corruption.

Coincidence?

Volker the Viking | 12.09.08 - 11:22 am | #

Yes, coincidence. The complaint was sworn out on Sunday.

Is there some kind of bug in haloscan? People have been complaining about Jas Jain spamming for the last couple of days and I haven't seen a single post by him during that time. His posts are totally invisible.

"GRAND JURY SUBPOENAS ISSUED ON REZKO/OBAMA LAND DEAL"

Breaking on Drudge - GRAND JURY SUBPOENAS ISSUED ON REZKO/OBAMA LAND DEAL

Interesting. It all runs on lies and slander now and some of it is purposeful manipulation of the Internet.

Corruption is higher than most Americans believe. My estimate is that at least 30% of the population is involved in some sort of illegal activities like kickbacks, conspiracies, etc.

That's the nature of debt bubbles.

"Dishonest money breeds dishonest people"

I should go play some pool now.

Ken Cooper is a God.

"while i enjoyed the insight of the article....Fisher is the putz that claimed in 1929 that stocks had reached a permanently high plateau.
the man from nantucket | 12.09.08 - 11:32 am | # "

He also proceeded to blow his fortune and then his wife's sister's fortune:....

Bernanke's Playbook by Gary North

"There will be plenty of opportunities for the FED to inflate its way out of this. Why must it do this? Because Prof. Irving Fisher said to.

Irving Fisher (1933) was perhaps the first economist to emphasize the potential connections between violent financial crises, which lead to "fire sales" of assets and falling asset prices, with general declines in aggregate demand and the price level. A healthy, well capitalized banking system and smoothly functioning capital markets are an important line of defense against deflationary shocks. The Fed should and does use its regulatory and supervisory powers to ensure that the financial system will remain resilient if financial conditions change rapidly.

Fisher was the first modern macroeconomist. He was the inventor of today's definitions of inflation and deflation.

By 1933, he was bankrupt, having run through his own fortune – he had invented the Rolodex – and his wife's sister's fortune. He had announced in September 1929 that the stock market was not going to fall. He was wrong.

Irving Fisher is the patron saint of central bank policy in the same way that John Maynard Keynes is the patron saint of modern deficit fiscal policy. Fisher was wrong in 1911, wrong in 1933, and wrong today. "

Money Man:

Let me guess.

You're from Virginia.

"decidely bleaker"....evokes memories of Dickens Christmas Carol....may I buy a lump of coal please? As Tiny Tim would say "God Bless us every one!"

Gary:

Who is B.H.?

Though there have been a number of good ones, "Decidedly Bleaker" is the best band name to come out of the current crisis.

How many days to Friday? The FDIC has been spending a lot of time around Altanta. Have they decided alphabetical was as good a strategy as any? Boston next? No, I don't think they'll go back north of the Mason-Dixon line until spring. Maybe a few surprise Houston banks caught commercial lending to the oil industry on their way to Phoenix, Vegas and LA.
Rob Dawg | Homepage | 12.09.08 - 11:39 am | #

One reason Atlanta is active IMO is due to FDIC's existing office there which is staffed and growing. It closed many offices (Denver, Chicago, Boston, Irvine, Houston, etc.)in the 90s or left only an examiner staff which does not handle bank closings once the bank fails. New England is in pretty good shape relatively speaking at the moment. A new law firm authored FOIA may shed a tiny light on what brand(s) of shampoo Sheila uses in GA and nationwide...I'm expecting at least 2 Friday pizza parties and perhaps 3 or 4...

FFDIC writes:

One reason Atlanta is active IMO is due to FDIC's existing office there which is staffed and growing. It closed many offices (Denver, Chicago, Boston, Irvine, Houston, etc.)in the 90s or left only an examiner staff which does not handle bank closings once the bank fails. New England is in pretty good shape relatively speaking at the moment. A new law firm authored FOIA may shed a tiny light on what brand(s) of shampoo Sheila uses in GA and nationwide...I'm expecting at least 2 Friday pizza parties and perhaps 3 or 4...
FFDIC | 12.09.08 - 11:51 am | #

I've been under the assumption that the pizza party machine won't get cranked up to its climax until about a year from now.

citizen energyecon writes:
no hoopajoops - he was referring to Broward Horne

Oh, crap, I just realized Gary was making that comment. I got discombobulated and thought Broward Horne had imported some new freeper habit of calling B.O. B.H. and cutting off his last name or something.

SORRY GARY!

I've been under the assumption that the pizza party machine won't get cranked up to its climax until about a year from now.
Hoopajoops LTD | 12.09.08 - 11:53 am | #

Correct. By then Irvine office will be up and running full steam, more new hires in place, much needed training done. One recent GA closing had 97 FDIC related people attend which is very large for small bank. Many were marked (T) on the org chart which stands for trainee who shadow the old timers and generally get in the way...It's a freaking mad house.

Correct. By then Irvine office will be up and running full steam,

Are you sure they leased enough space?

Go long Marriot Suites.

One reason Atlanta is active IMO is due to FDIC's existing office there which is staffed and growing.

Another reason is that the Atlanta suburbs were fertile ground for mortgage fraud rings. Gwinnett County was especially rife, as I recall....

"Banks will be lodging under assumed names in the cash-for-rent basements of russian immigrants, waiting, waiting for the day that they can prove their innocence."

Offering no-down loans to innocent children on playgrounds?

Are you sure they leased enough space?

Go long Marriot Suites.
Rob Dawg | Homepage | 12.09.08 - 11:59 am | #

They NEVER lease more space than is cost justified and in the alternative move into buildings large enough to lease more space as needed or it will move to a bigger, cheaper building. We moved constantly in Dallas. 12 times in a decade as I recall from different floors, different buildings, from suburb to downtown.

SunTrust's statements are a joke.

Wasn't it about a year ago their earnings dropped like 99.8%? Oh but at least they weren't in the red! LOL

homedad43 writes:
Money Man:

Let me guess.

You're from Virginia.
homedad43 | Homepage | 12.09.08 - 11:43 am | #

Nope...I am a born and bred Atlanta, Ga native. Now will all the damn crooked carpet bagging Yankees....Go HOME!....Snark

NYC = Chinese takout for a much needed respite from cold pizza.
FFDIC

Problem is a half hour later and you want to close another bank. [ducks]

Some FDIC Atlanta thread music:

YouTube - Little Feat - WLIR, Hempstead, L.I., NY 1974-09-19

Loved these guys.

Did anybody notice that our boy Sam Zell was trying to get $100 million in tax breaks out of Blogojevich?

He would be the "Tribune Owner" right? Via Duncan's blog:

Eschaton

Problem is a half hour later and you want to close another bank. [ducks]
Rob Dawg | Homepage | 12.09.08 - 12:12 pm | #
That is when they get the FDIC Facilities mgr key to open up all the bank's vending machines in the coffee bar. Free junk food and coffee all day and night. The guards who sit around scratching their nuts go wild!

"scratching their nutz".....LOL...I tried to hold in the laugh but ended up spitting on myself.

Problem is a half hour later and you want to close another bank. [ducks]
Rob Dawg | Homepage | 12.09.08 - 12:12 pm | #

Bravo.

The real reason though is to test out the cash only and barter systems the Treasury is working on. Fine tune it there and then ...
Hazard | 12.09.08 - 12:24 pm | #
Whatever, I'm sorta out of the official loop now...

Sounds like a good job. Kind of like being a Viking. Seize and plunder
Anonymous | 12.09.08 - 12:25 pm | #

Raping taxpayers is next...

"half hour later you wanna close another bank".

Rob Dawg wins.

In response to a request from an earlier post for the CDS effected by the Tribune:
Tuesday, December 9, 2008
Zell's Bells

From Markit.com

Indices Affected by Tribune Company Credit Event

CDX.NA.HY.9-V4
CDX.NA.HY.10-V2
CDX.NA.HY.11-V2
CDX.NA.HY.B.9-V3
CDX.NA.HY.HB.9-V4
CDX.NA.HY.HB.10-V2
CDX.NA.HY.HB.11-V2
CDX.NA.IG.6-V4
CDX.NA.IG.HVOL.6-V2
CDX.NA.IG.TMT.6-V2
CDX.NA.XO.7-V3
CDX.NA.XO.8-V2
Posted by Anonymous Monetarist

A: When S&P 500 is 500

Outside writes:
Calculated Risk,

You managed to correct predict an recession, warning us of what would happen as early as 2006. Good Job.

But now it is all about predicting when things will get better. It is not hard to post articles about how bad our economy is.

The hard thing is to say: Look, its bad now but from here on it will only get better. Do you think we are there yet?

When is the time to start investing again? We who saved at the bank have already "lost" 25 % on the rise of the Dow Jones.

Sorry RE...I don't watch Cramer. Boo-Hoo-Yah! Thats a Canadian eupahmisim for were just like you. I truly believe we are heading for a global bailout of a one currency, one governmental orginization, one set of financial rules system. The world is pissed and is pointing their crooked index fingers squarely at us.

Atlanta guy here . My atty has $600 of my mine in an escrow acct at Suntrusyt, Are there any safe banks in ATL ?

This global cluster 'f" is easier to watch when eating popcorn and consuming massive amounts of distilled spirits.....I don't drink...so that leaves me directly in path of this F-5.

CR has been great at identifying the problems in our economy. He has a poor record of predicting the magnitude of the consequences.

I think most people that read CR don't read it for CR's predictions, but for his wonderful reporting, open atmosphere and nice charts.

I haven't seen CR update his predictions for a long time and I am somewhat curious. He must be starting to capitulate on his no severe recession(unemployment > 8%) call.

Good recap by Stiglitz on how we got here. Picture of Kate Winslett on pg. 2 is a must see

Stiglitz provides a good background, but he draws the wrong conclusion, writing the "mistake" this "boils down" to is the "belief that markets are self-adjusting and that the role of government should be minimal."

Free markets most certainly are self-adjusting, and minimal doesn't mean non-existant.

Winslett expands and contracts more than Oprah. But at the moment...DAMN!

Anyone see this absurd statement by Bernake?

“Congress is best suited” to determine the viability of the car companies, Bernanke said in a Dec. 5 letter to Senate Banking Committee Chairman Christopher Dodd, obtained by Bloomberg News today. It’s “unclear” whether the companies have strong enough collateral for the Fed to lend to them, he also said.

Yes, and all that level 3 crap which he happily took as collateral from the banks is strong enough?

In passing, SunTrust may be the largest bank not regulated by the OCC. BoNY/Mellon and they are state chartered, I think.

Anyone know for sure?

I have to say that the fact that Obama will have a real stimulus program does provide some hope. It will take a while to kick in, so 2009 should be a washout, but we could have some decent economic growth in 2010. With depression type statistics comming through, it is good to see that we will do some of the things that did help back in the 1930's

Stiglitz provides a good background, but he draws the wrong conclusion, writing the "mistake" this "boils down" to is the "belief that markets are self-adjusting and that the role of government should be minimal."

It's an ironic statement. Anybody who's been in these markets for the past few years knows that the Federal Reserve is the dominant player and that role of the "free market" is a far second to the money pumpers at the Fed.

The economics profession has been corrupted and rendered useless (and more likely outright destructive) by attempts to justify and pursue at all costs a sort of "economic presidency" - a throne at the Federal Reserves for great economists to sit atop and manage the economy while the rest of us grovel at their feet.

The rest of us are paying a terrible price for their dreams of power.

--
"If anything CR was a bit early and he is definitely not a follower."

"A bit early," isn't that playing safe? Some forecasted the Housing-driven collapse lot sooner and with lot more accuracy as to how it would end (in a depression).

ANYWAY, THE TOPIC WAS THE DEGREE OF THE RECESSION. AND CR STILL IS NOT FORECASTING A SEVERE RECESSION WHEN DEPRESSION LOOKS ALMOST CERTAIN.

You guys here don't get it and I don't expect most here to get it. I will keep exposing CR's failures, e.g., housing demand was 1.7M/year, CRE was not as overbuilt as RRE, recession would not be severe, etc., etc. Can't handle your guru being wrong? Blind faith is very common. Mortgage Pig Wear, in late 2008, is a project conceived by dopes and for dopes (it would have been not a bad idea in 2005 or even in 2006).

Dopes cannot handle criticism well. They immediately attack the critics. Shooting the messenger comes naturally. It is all part of the success America has had in breeding dopes.

Jas

"The Great Bleakening"

I see nothing preventing further economic decline. At times I conclude this depression will be worse than the GD. The govi had to step in early to prevent collapse. Extrapolating the economic declines paints a gloomy picture. I predict massive, uncontested insolvency across the banking system.

I haven't seen CR update his predictions for a long time and I am somewhat curious. He must be starting to capitulate on his no severe recession(unemployment > 8%) call.
CashOnlyHousing | 12.09.08 - 12:53 pm | #

Just a friendly reminder that Bill is in a period of mourning not only for our beloved Tanta but also for the nation. I know you understand and will give him some time to get back up to speed with those who constantly press for perfection. Tanta came close enough for blogger work. Ease up my friends and go focus on cleaning out your own closets for a couple more weeks or months...

With a big enough stimulus package the economy will get moving again. It will be very rough on the gov't bond market with all that supply flooding in, but we did have some very good market returns durring FDR's first term. This was because the ceconomy was posting very robust economic growth as it climbed out of a very steep and deep valley. I think it is still early, and expect the market to pull back again to levels near the last low. However, there is a good chance that the Obama plan will work.

It's not your message, it is you, Babu.

Not to mention that the Babu's user interface is so flawed that it's difficult to see whether or not the CPU is stuck in an infinite loop.

Anybody who's been in these markets for the past few years knows that the Federal Reserve is the dominant player and that role of the "free market" is a far second to the money pumpers at the Fed.

AC,

Our debt money system requires credit growth. We either have credit growth or we have economic implosion. Stiglitz and others always ignore this inconvenient truth.

If the system is to survive, even fraudulent credit growth is better than no credit growth. It buys time until the productive part of the economy can produce real output. In short, the productive economy cannot always supply credit growth in a continual and steady fashion.

Sadly, the scammers are always ready to fill the void. And the fed is obliged and happy to assist them.

It's all a sham.

Wrong bgagtes wrong.
In response to President elect Obama’s plan for a massive stimulus package, which many have seen as “New Deal 2.0” there have been many talking heads claiming that in reality the New Deal was a failure. That it did not cure the Great Depression, it took WWII to do that. Well the fact that someone appears on Financial TV, or works for a “Think Tank” like the Heritage Foundation or the American Enterprise Institute, is no guarantee that the person knows what they are talking about. (Indeed, most of the people who show up on these shows have been dead wrong about the direction of the economy and the impact of the credit crisis over the last few years). What we are seeing is a conscious effort to re-write history under the theory that: “He who controls the past, controls the future”. Josef Stalin understood this quite well, that is why he had school children cut out the pictures of Trotsky and other prominent revolutionaries, from the school books.

Unfortunately, most of the economic statistics we have do not go back before WWII, and those that we do have tend to be annual, rather than quarterly or monthly. You can look at the numbers yourself at St. Louis Fed: Gross Domestic Product (GDP) and Components. However, the table below shows the year by year growth for three of the most important statistics during the 1930’s. These are: real GDP growth (RGDP), Real Private Investment (RPI), and Real Personal Consumption Expenditures (RPCE). What they show is that FDR’s first term was one of the best periods of economic growth this country has ever seen. It was only when FDR pulled back on his New Deal programs in response to budget concerns in 1937 that the economy once again faltered. The problem was that the devastation from 1930 through 1932 was so great that there were still lots of poor people even on the eve of the War. However, those that claim that the New Deal didn’t help are simply not giving the true picture.

R-GDP R-PI R-PCE

1930 (6.4) (37.3) (3.1)
1931 (13.(70. (8.9)
1932 (1.3) 47.8 (2.2)
1933 10.8 80.5 7.1
1934 8.9 85.3 6.1
1935 13.0 28.1 10.1
1936 5.1 25.0 3.7
1937 (3.4) (33.4) (1.6)
1938 8.1 28.6 5.6
1939 8.8 39.4 5.2

The numbers clearly show that government spending was not crowding out private investment, and that the New Deal did cause consumers to loosen up their wallets. With the exception of during WWII, the economy has never since matched the sort of economic growth that it posted during FDR’s first term. If history really does rhyme, then there is a very good chance that the Obama stimulus package will succeed. While 2009 will not be pretty, we could possibly have very robust economic growth in 2010. Among the firms that will benefit the most from the economic stimulus package are the Engineering and Construction firms like Fluor (FLR) and Jacobs Engineering (JEC).

Serious fear in the treasuries market.

We need to form OPCE the organization of oil consuming economies. Whenever the price gets too high we all cut consumption. Will it work? What, cheating? What, reserves? Why then should the OPEC plan succeed? Let's move on. Pickens is talking his book again. And while we are at it Zell is talking his. He doesn't want to sell the profitable LA Times but would love to unload the LA Times property in downtown worth 1/3rd what he paid.

AC,

Our debt money system requires credit growth. We either have credit growth or we have economic implosion. Stiglitz and others always ignore this inconvenient truth.

Really what's happened is far simpler than that -

Money has been transformed from an instrument for representing wealth to an instrument for exercising power.

The problem is the economy needs an instrument to accurately represent wealth in order to function efficiently.

Having lost such a mechanism the economy is now getting mired in illusions and manipulation.

In our attempts to direct the economy via the money supply and financial assets we have in effect destroyed their underlying utility to commerce and economic activity.

Our prosperity is sacrificed so people like Stiglitz can aspire to prominent roles in a scheme of centralized economic management.

The good of the many is being sacrificed for the ambitions of the few.

crazyvermonter writes:
just curious- isn't one big difference between the depression and current markets the existence of deposit insurance? Other than a minor bank on Indy Mac the one thing absent in this crisis is a traditional bank run. The only people feeling a "bank run" are the big money center banks and that too only in the inter bank market.

I agree that the FDIC limits will stop the total loss of deposits phenomenon that was so horrible during GD I. For instance, if the three banks in a small town went under, everyone in the entire town lost a significant amount of cash in the long run, and ALL of their cash int he short run, while the unwinding processed. These failures also fomented distrust and anger in the financial system, because frequently bank board members, large industrial depositors, and other connected people would walk away with largely all of their money before the bank failed, and the small depositors, those who could least take a financial wipeout, would be left holding the bag.

As far as this current crisis being dissimilar from the GDI because of the existence of an FDIC fund, I am not so sure. To begin with, our very currency is being thrown in front of this freight train. The FED is going to see just how far it can go, how many levers it can push, before it totally loses all power and the handles break off w/r/t the integrity of the dollar. Additionally, I think that the safety measures we've put in place won't prevent disaster, but will isntead transform the disaster into some form which we cannot anticipate. It's kind of like taking a stick of TNT and sewing it in a bag and making sure the bag has no holes; the pressure will come out somewhere and the damage will be done somehow, but because you've eliminated all the fault lines, there's no telling where or how it is going to shake out.

There was significant govi stimulus from '29-'32. I conclude a controlled liquidation is preferable to the massive bailouts. I'm afraid, and I really mean afraid, that the Keynesian type approach is wrong for this situation. Attempting to reflate with our current aggregate debt, deficits, and trade imbalances is very troubling.

I'm going to go out on a limb and predict a circuit breaker triggering crash in the next month. It may not be until January, though it could certainly be sooner.

Current market rally is a speculative fervor, driven by short covering, MSM optimism, Fed/Treasury manipulations, bailouts, stimulus, etc.

Given all of these bullish factors, there is very little belief that things will improve. Traders have rushed in, made a killing by pumping garbage stocks, and when the momentum swings, it will happen in a heartbeat. Very few are holding long term. Most are in hoping to make a quick buck and exit before the herd.

Mark my words. When this turns, it will be a disaster. The question is when.

I'm now almost fully hedged. But I have a hair trigger on my long position, and I can go 100% short in a moment's notice.

Good luck all. We'll need it.

Serious fear in the treasuries market.
PeakVT

okay - what do you see?

Dirk,
thanks.

The drop in real GDP during 1932 was only 1.3% after having dropped 20+% in the previous years.

1] Would we have had positive GDP in 1933 without the New Deal?

2] Are we going to enter a recession again after New Deal 2.0 resources are exhausted?

"Serious fear in the treasuries market."

0% and the Yen broke 92. Not good...

When I was young the TV promised me a rocket pack.
Instead all we got were rollershoes.

dreadlord76 writes:
Comrade Swan:

The time to start invest is when you see a clear path for US economy to pay it's debts, and grow and thrive.

It can come with the next great tech discovery. For example, if someone can invent a Zero Point energy source, and we can warm our houses and power our cars for nearly no cost, then that will be a game changer. Something like this is not really predictable.

Another way is for the citizens to learn to save, conserve, invest and work in actually productive industries. Don't think we are there yet.
dreadlord76 | 12.09.08 - 1:06 pm | #

bleak 1 (blēk) Pronunciation Key
adj. bleak·er, bleak·est

1.
1. Gloomy and somber: "Life in the Aran Islands has always been bleak and difficult" (John Millington Synge).
2. Providing no encouragement; depressing: a bleak prospect.
2. Cold and cutting; raw: bleak winds of the North Atlantic.
3. Exposed to the elements; unsheltered and barren: the bleak, treeless regions of the high Andes.

Thanks - I already have way over FDIC limits at BBT but feel pretty safe . I can't put the $600K there for too long .

"Anonymous writes:
Regions Bank--Rated C
Sun Trust Bank--Rated C-
BB&T--Rated B-

Source:

Sorry, the page you requested could not be found tab=3
Anonymous | 12.09.08 - 1:28 pm | # "

Bleakest is also a work.

i'm now totally sickened by what i read on a daily basis in the business section.

revelations such as these about suntrust bank only spur the notion that if you want to get ahead of people who aren't playing by the rules, then you are forced to resort to the same unscrupulous actions or suffer failure.

Just thought I'd let you know, from :

"It May Be Time To Think About Buying A House"

I mean, when you start out with a sentence like this :

"Five or 10 years from now, when the financial crisis has ended and housing prices are up smartly once more..."

there's no place else to go but straight into the trash.

YOUR MONEY; Maybe It's Time to Buy That First House - NY Times 

Who puts these folks up to writing this stuff? I mean, dear GLOD, will the nonsense ever end???

"It’s worth noting, however, that these predictions (on big price declines) came before the government made its most recent move to reduce borrowing costs."

OHHHHHHHHHH 5.5 to 4.5% that changes EVERYTHING!

"The fact is, in many parts of the country there are few if any attractive rentals for people looking to put down roots and enjoy the sort of amenities they may spot on cable television home improvement shows."

Absolutely NOT a fact. Everywhere Ive ever gone the first thing Ive looked for is the homes that are for rent and they are a huge bargain now vs the mortgage. Plus you gain 5% guaranteed on your savings (not tied up in a downpayment that is disappearing as your home price falls.) Does anyone really think you're going to get 4-5% annual guaranteed appreciation on your home?

It's really hard keeping my cereal down right now. GRRRR~!!!!

HAHA
http://buffalobeast.com/133/bigthree.jpg

I'm going to go out on a limb and predict a circuit breaker triggering crash in the next month. It may not be until January, though it could certainly be sooner.

Anyone here know how quickly they adjust the circuit breakers?

If INDU closes on 12/31 at 8,500, will the first breaker be 850 on Jan 2nd, or does it take a week or so to get set?

I don't think we hit a breaker-tripping day until after they reset.

Although I'm more than willing to be wrong.

Conjure promised Liz a circuit breaker. I'm still waiting.

With all the terrible news today, you'd think the Dow would be over 9k.

2] Are we going to enter a recession again after New Deal 2.0 resources are exhausted?

The real horror story occurs if we borrow and spend trillions of dollars and it doesn't generate the growth expect. Something that's not unthinkable given the hostile debt environment.

When you're doing massive borrowing and spending and that spending is not generating growth to service the new debt you are nearing the point where ponzi finance collapses (just as it did with housing).

If we borrow and spend and it doesn't work, we could be looking at a situation far worse than the Great Depression.

i'm still getting rapid fire ads or CR popups

on IE

anyone else with same problem?

monta's ankle writes:
i'm still getting rapid fire ads or CR popups

anyone else with same problem?

I'm on IE 6.0 due to work computer policy restraints and I'm fairly sure that that fucking pen popup on this site infected me with spyware.

--
"Bernanke understands this all too well. Hence the TARP and all the alphabet soup lending facilities."

Angry Saver,

And he is doing one hell of a Job? Chair-moron Burn-ass-ke is impotent to fight deflation that is here already. Ask the good-man UST long bond. Can't keep a good man down! And can't stop the real good-man deflation!!

Jas

Seattle Times joins its brethren...

Seattle Times puts some new land up for collateral

Seattle Times puts some new land up for collateral
The block in front of Times' headquarters is now included as part of security for the company's $91 million debt to banks. Meanwhile, the paper is scaling back features, and sale of its Maine papers may slip a key deadline.

at 137

Angry Saver pointed out that historically jubilees were peacefull and goes on to recommend...

Angry Saver, i agree...and

yes a jubilee of sorts

i have argued previously that the CDS market is a gross mis allocation of capital

we should close out, or somehow cancel out this market (unwinds it in short order)

in a back and forth, Bearly and i argued this idea was nonsense and would crash the balance sheet of many many companies

but i wonder...recognizing i am no better than an apprentice when it comes to these matters

heres how the argument went:

mock turtle writes:
up thread i questioned whether or not CDSs could be canceled by government fiat...if there was a solution along these lines, in response to comrade swans post about GM and CDSs at 743 pm...

Bearly wrote

They are a hedging vehicle to many participants with balance sheet implications and they would immediately go insolvent on a cancel... nonsense

follow up question

is there a way to satisfy balance sheet requirements in substitution for the CDSs

or, again, what is the alternative

or is this hopeless
mock turtle | 11.30.08 - 9:33 pm | #

but here is a more knowledgeable discourse on the proposal from the financial times

FT.com / Companies / Automobiles - Put the credit default swaps market out of its misery

FRED writes:
IF you belive otherwsie it stretches imagination to unbderstand why the central banks are halting production of coins in coordinated fashion. a devaluation is coming and it is going to be brutal.

I used to lose sleep over the fiat currency collapsing around the world until I put it in perspective. Argentinia, during its huge collapse where people were scrounging around for cardboard, children starving, and the entire economic system going into the toilet, only suffered a 2/3 devaluation of its currency. If a total collapse in a much smaller economy with much more corruption only resulted in a 2/3 devaluation, it can't be as bad here. I suspect it wouldn't be as bad here even so, because argentinia had the problem of people fleeing to the dollar driving down its currency; there's no dollar to flee to here, nothing to trade your dollars for which would push down their value. Even if it is as bad here as it was in argentinia, I think many people can deal with a 2/3 devaluation of their dollars.

"the possible repudiation of printed dollars"

Look at it this way. At the right price, money will flow. Ben concludes he can stop the collapse monetarily. He apparently fails to realize that private money isn't buying at the current risk/reward ratio. As the nonsense continues, the constant dollar, economic (i.e. real) prices continue to decline.

New SBIT is out right now: NFIB | Small Business Association

AllenC writes:
Ben concludes he can stop the collapse monetarily.

The tail wags the dog. The circular wanking of the financial sector can single-handedly create value and prop up the rest of the economy.

Isn't this just taking the philosophy that got us into this mess into such an extreme that something has to break?

"Fitch cuts General Growth as 'default imminent'"

BOOOOYAAAAA

Fitch cuts General Growth as 'default imminent'
| Reuters

Dawg - 'bout a month ago I asked what if interest rates go negative...

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Nice to see a full pack of attack dogs in action. That is one of the things that dopes (group think) like to do. They also like to emulate. One dog starts to bark...

Dopeland is never a dull place. And neither is Gangistan (lot of action in the gangs).

Jas

the possible repudiation of printed dollars

Not there yet. Gold would be soaring. So would treasury yields.

It does show the extreme distrust of private credit though. This is what happens when all asset classes become overvalued and over-leveraged.

Greenspan is an idiot. So is Bernanke. Fools. Wall street puppets.

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"Greenspan is an idiot. So is Bernanke. Fools. Wall street puppets."

Greenspan was a manipulator/liar/crook and Bernanke is a moron. But both are evildoers and so is Bush.

Evil occurs in many forms.

Jas

Treasuries rose, pushing yields on the three-month bill to minus 0.01 percent, as U.S. stocks declined amid concern that the recession will deepen.

I'm not a mad max type, but this can't be a good thing.

Would the IOC be stupid enough to get involve with Corruption City?

Bribery, corruption and pay-to-play are all cornerstones of the IOC's awarding process.

I'd like to filter out Jas. Can't take it anymore. Unfortunately, I think that filter is just a way for the gov't to find out who you are. Oh, well. C'mon CR, just give him the boot.

Elvis - while I appreciate your sentiment about certian commenters, I dont think CR should.

Do what I do and scroll right through bs postings.

Did anyone with itchy finger load up on SRS yesterday? Look at that one go.

In other words, Sun has failed.

Not under the new rules.

Besides, with the increased FDIC limits and alphabet soup lending facilities it would all fall on the taxpayer anyway.

Next Sun Trust will be paying 5% on CDs.

What a sham(e).

Cubs were spicifically kept out of the filling
Dirk van Dijk

Cant understand this one! One reason folks ponied up money was because the Cubs were part of the pkg.

This week’s result is down from the 5 basis point interest rate paid last week."
Allen C | 12.09.08 - 2:31 pm | #

This is good, right?
(end snark)

It will manifest this time not in closed banks or depositors without money, but in some terrible way we cannot foresee, because we've already covered and safeguarded all foreseeable manifestations of this pressure
Hoopajoops LTD | 12.09.08 - 2:15 pm | #

It seems straighforward to foresee; it will manifest itself in a debased currency.

cd

New post...

Can anyone tell me what effect this has on the trust funds they administer? I know someone likely to be named as heir to a trust fund held by Suntrust. What happens to the trust funds if these jerks go tits up?

"the world of CDS will destroy us if we dont cancel it out"

They need to move faster in forcing ALL CDS on to an exchange with appropriate clearing. Non-qualified positions require liquidation.

OK Jas.
What do you plan to do when treasury rates go under 2%? Are you still going to hold on to dollars?