We make the jokes about how it's all priced in or how this will now increase EPS, but to be honest I don't understand how the market can't be in a free fall. Who is buying in this market. How many "greater fools" are there?
[Seriously, WTF? Who is going to voluntarily give up their job in this economy?]
Happens all the time. "We are offering X months severence and if you retire now you will retain your pension plan in its current state before we make structural changes..."
Then, the next offer is "We're offering X/2 severence..."
Rev. Elmer Gantry writes:
Consolidate a Starbucks, a grocery store, a Blockbuster Video, and a bank into one store - now that would be efficient.
Rev. Elmer Gantry | 12.11.08 - 5:00 pm | #
Naturally the supermarket I speak of has a Starbucks and a video rental... oh, and a little medical clinic.
Looks like good enough news for a major rally on wall street to me. Not.
In my business as a doctor, I am just starting to see the real job losses as patients are coming in this month, in particular, stating they will be out of their job at the end of the month. The snow ball is growing rapidly here. For those that think the worst is over, brace yourselves for reality. Job losses will mounting this next year.
"Seriously, WTF? Who is going to voluntarily give up their job in this economy?"
I would. My company gives great severance. And with my wife's company going kaput most likely in March I want to go from beinged called DINKs to NINKs.
The problem with voluntary layoffs though is that the good people always take the money and run. You're left with all the chaffe.
Great...they get taxpayer bailout to pay excessive dividends, excesssive compensation and we get stuck paying for unemployment insurance...taxypers bend over
Eventually, this depression will end, and we'll be stuck with 6 or 7 national banks and, at most, one auto company. The future looks bleaker than the past.
OK am I cycnical to think these may be CDO's they wrote CDS on? And if they are paying above market rates by virtue of a lower spread with Fed loans, are they establishing an inflated mark to market?
JPMorgan Seeks $780 Million of CDOs of Buyout Loans (Update2)
By Pierre Paulden, Jody Shenn and Neil Unmack
Dec. 11 (Bloomberg) -- JPMorgan Chase & Co., the largest U.S. bank, is seeking to buy as much as $780 million of AAA rated portions of collateralized loan obligations, according to a list of securities the company circulated to traders and investors.
The bank is asking for offers tomorrow from holders of the debt backed by high-yield, high-risk corporate loans, said five traders who declined to be identified because the request isnt public.
New York-based JPMorgan, which has received capital from the government and has obtained loans from the Federal Reserve, told traders it may be willing to accept yields of about 4 percentage points more than the three-month London interbank offered rate for dollars, three of the people said. Thats less than the spread of 5 percentage points that the securities typically trade at, according to JPMorgans research department.
Tough time to be an auto dealer in paradise : 750 auto dealership jobs cut over the last year, about 15% of the workforce. I guess they can go to work in the hotel/tourism industry. Also great comments at the end of the article. I see the people in the islands still haven't gotten past the "stupid haoles," stuff that went on when I lived there in the late 70s. Stuck in time I guess...,
How can there be redundancy with BofA and Merril after I was assured by C&C that the merger wouldn't happen and was given no end of crap for saying it would.
Consolidate a Starbucks, a grocery store, a Blockbuster Video, and a bank into one store - now that would be efficient.
Rev. Elmer Gantry | 12.11.08 - 5:00 pm | #
I drove by a place in Indiana where they'd consolidated a tavern and a gun shop. THAT's efficiency.
Everything is still OK in America. How do I know this? Haven't seen many nail salons closing up have you?. When they start then you'll know Armegeddon is upon us.
BTW, Catholic Girl, TARP is being punished in the pricipal's office having been sent there by Sister Mary Perpetual Help.
What a despicable company BAC is. I don't think it will be long before they're lined up for a Citi type deal of their own.
This is one company that deserves to die given how contemptuously they treat their customers. Pity about the employees' families that will be affected, though.
Rescued from prior thread:
"Clients know that Bernard Madoff has a personal interest in maintaining the unblemished record of value, fair-dealing, and high ethical standards that has ..."
" Rev. Elmer Gantry writes:
Consolidate a Starbucks, a grocery store, a Blockbuster Video, and a bank into one store - now that would be efficient.
Rev. Elmer Gantry | 12.11.08 - 5:00 pm | # "
Consolidating banks and pizza parlors would be efficient.
You not only posted a rumor, you defended it and gave out a ration of crap to me for deigning to suggest that history has shown Ken Lewis does what he says he will do and therefore the ML merger will go through.
i think CR and this site are great, but unfortunately, visiting this (or any other) site on daily basis seems to promote narrow-mindedness and bigotry.
here is an excerpt from an article on how islamic youth in the west gets radicalized via internet forums and blogs. sounds like a lot of people here:
"websites are far less relevant than blogs and chat rooms, in which echo chambers help to radicalize people online. the new forums have the same influence that these radical mosques played in the previous generation of terrorists. Conspiracy theories, fueling outrage, are spread in rapid fashion, as individuals seek and select the rooms most compatible with their views and abandon the ones they disagree with. In a sense, the followers vote with their mice and select the views they like.
offline, those who might believe that they are isolated in their anger and fear, or in their incipient convictions, might be tempted to start thinking something else. But they can easily find one another through the internet, and they become more extreme in their beliefs, simple because so many people seem to agree with them. Lets assume that a very few people in the world share the same strange belief, say that the moon is made of green cheese. Through a process of self-selection, they find each other on the same forum. Soon they will assume that everyone shares this conviction because only the true believers air their views and the rest stay silent. through this process, strange and potentially dangerous beliefs, which would otherwise fall of their own weight, can be hardened as a result of the internet."
this site has a lot of potential, but as a forum, it is potentially dangerous to one's mental health, in my humble opinion.
Greek protesters broaden demands to focus on jobs
By MENELAOS HADJICOSTIS and DEREK GATOPOULOS 1 hour ago
ATHENS, Greece (AP) Students pelted police stations with rocks and pledged to stay on the streets Thursday as protesters turned their rage over the police killing of a teenager into a wider rebellion against economic hardship.
Demonstrators also overturned cars and blocked streets in central Athens, but the country was largely spared the extreme violence that has characterized the five days since police shot and killed 15-year-old Alexandros Grigoropoulos. In Athens, demonstrators vowed to dig in, planning more rallies to vent anger over economic hardship exacerbated by the global financial crisis.
"What started as an outburst of rage over Alexandros' killing is now becoming a more organized form of protest," said Petros Constantinou, an organizer with the Socialist Workers Party.
Protesters began handing out fliers listing their demands, which include having riot police pulled from the streets and the reversal of public spending cuts that have heightened insecurity over jobs. The article requested is no longer available.
Pilgrim, so "haole" refers to white people in general or just white people from the mainland? Is it only used by native [ethnic] Hawaiians? Sorry. I realize this is OT, but am just curious...
Anoddamoose writes: \tSometimes that happens when the patient has no more blood pressure. \t Anoddamoose | \t\t\t\t12.11.08 - 5:11 pm --- Like everything else in life, the Devil is in the details.
I would love to be optimistic about severance. My assumptions are that even as little as six months salary is a pretty decent package and that many of these folks would be looking for work for much longer than six months. Frankly, I would like to be wrong about that...
OT-Watching Santa Claus is Coming to Town last night with the little one, and they refer to the lady that raises young Kris Kringle as "Tanta" Kringle....they said it 3 or 4 times. Never caught it before. Tanta_Vive!
"this site has a lot of potential, but as a forum, it is potentially dangerous to one's mental health, in my humble opinion.
jackk | 12.11.08 - 5:16 pm | # "
Nah. I found my way here because this a few a other places were the only places where a negative view of the economy could be found. Everybody else was happyhappyhappy, nows a great time to buy, etc. etc. I came here because of all the people who drank the other koolaid.
Anyway, why do you assume that none of us go elsewhere?
Thank you calculated risk. Because of your discussion and comments section, I just went toe to toe in a discussion about FDIC bond guarantees and the fed issuing its own bonds with some of the top guys in my firm from new york, and, to the astonishment of my entire office, knew as much about these esoteric topics as they did. Looked like a real supergenius (am not) and its all thanks to you guys. I love you guys.
Mindless agreement, HERE?! You must be blogging into a different CR my friend - ask c&c or Rob Dawg about our identical thinking with respect to long term liquid hydrocarbon production rates...LMAO - in fact, the best part about this place is the conflicting and sometimes reasoned discourse.
That's why I come here, that plus Rob Dawg is good for the occasional killer one liner.
Here's a great reason why a lot of thinking people end up at CR: the ten worst predictions of 2008, by our friends at Foreign Policy magazine. This is what the gov't and MSM had to offer:
I have a friend who's started going long in the market. He used to be shorting like me and we would talk almost every day about the market.
I have a friend who has been listening to me rant about the market for a year. He finally asked me what he should do. I told him to buy SRS. He started watching it and bought at $80. I'm thinking he may have to weed my garden next year.
How does 2 and 20 apply to weeding? I'm thinking he may have to mulch as well.
It took me two days to find out why the Greeks were protesting to begin with - all the articles said that the rioting started after they burned a police car and the police shot a kid. No mention why they were initially protesting.
They were protesting "rampant discontent over the conservative government's economic policies".
The Federal gov't is about to discover that by destroying its job base and home ownership that it now possess a population which is very difficult to tax and can only be controlled by immeidate local application of force, i.e. Mexico.
I doubt if turning the US into Mexico will be a net benefit.
It's the same on all blogging threads. The occasional inflammatory commentary is not a threat, it's just the friction generated by an exchange of ideas. Sure, sometimes it's just venting, but that's usually a healthy thing.
By and large, the people who regularly comment here have a lot to contribute to each discussion and are courteous to one another. You need to develop a thicker skin.
Because of the procedural hurdles, Mr. Reid could not force a vote on the auto measures on Thursday. If the Republicans refuse to allow immediate votes, he has laid the groundwork for a vote Friday morning that would end the discussion if Republicans refused to support the bill.
The Dems and southern Repubs in the Senate are playing a giant game of chicken. The House adjourned after passing the bill worked out with Team Shrub and Pelosi says she's not bringing them back.
Tomorrow looks like a potential circuit breaker day. Direction yet to be determined.
fried writes:
I miss Evil Henry Paulson...I wish he would return.
fried | 12.11.08 - 5:27 pm | #
I second that, and if he's posting under a different name I wish someone would clue me in. I haven't had the time lately to read all the comments, and may very well be skipping his just because he uses a different handle now.
I don't know one person who has a job and wants to attrit right now.
do you?
Me. But I'm definitely in a different mindset than most of the people even here on CR. I wrote my expectations of the future off a couple of years ago. I was pretty sure there'd be another washout of the IT industry and it would become even more contentious and unpleasant.
SRS has been very good to me this last year. If you had patience the old buy low and sell when people are stupid has worked well. This next year should be buy low and sell when people realize the REITs are done. There should be a large profit opportunity when the collective stupidity has a slight decline and no one wants to own those REITs. Sadly for them i won't take my winnings and spend them at some failing mall that they own.
SRS at $200 by Easter is all but guaranteed. That sort of return buys a lot of fake green plastic grass for your easter basket. Resist that.
To anon re: Tanta, in Dutch/Flemish, "tante" means "aunt." That is what you heard in "Santa Claus is Coming to Town." "Santa Claus" comes from the Dutch "Sinterklaas."
According to BB TV Dodd and Corker(?) are trying to hammer out a compromise but it was my understanding that Pelosi would brook no changes to the original bill passed in the House and if the House has adjourned indefinitely well I don't see how a new compromised bill would pass.
I doubt if turning the US into Mexico will be a net benefit.
It's going to be a wakeup call.
Broward Horne | Homepage | 12.11.08 - 5:31 pm | #
The Reagan and Bush policies were always about turning the US into Mexico. Extremely concentrated wealth surrounded by millions of peasants. A society of two distinct classes and to hell with the middle class.
Hoopajoops LTD writes:
"Bills are never DOA in the senate. The GOP's resistance is just so it can get stuff slathered on. This is no new news."
Hoopajoops LTD | Homepage | 12.11.08 - 5:41 pm | #
Ordinarily I would agree. But when the Minority Leader takes the floor to make a major speech, that does have a ring of finality to it that the yapping of lesser Senators does not.
Given what's going on, would anyone here short Obama's first term? And he wanted the job.
Given what's going on, would anyone here short Obama's first term? And he wanted the job.
JohnR(VA) | 12.11.08 - 5:45 pm | #
Black Man Given Nation's Worst Job
WASHINGTONAfrican-American man Barack Obama, 47, was given the least-desirable job in the entire country Tuesday when he was elected president of the United States of America. In his new high-stress, low-reward position, Obama will be charged with such tasks as completely overhauling the nation's broken-down economy, repairing the crumbling infrastructure, and generally having to please more than 300 million Americans and cater to their every whim on a daily basis. As part of his duties, the black man will have to spend four to eight years cleaning up the messes other people left behind. The job comes with such intense scrutiny and so certain a guarantee of failure that only one other person even bothered applying for it. Said scholar and activist Mark L. Denton, "It just goes to show you that, in this country, a black man still can't catch a break."
"Given what's going on, would anyone here short Obama's first term? And he wanted the job.
JohnR(VA) | 12.11.08 - 5:45 pm | # "
The more desperate things get before his watch begins, the more power and leeway he has to do what he wants. All he has to do is describe an upward arc from where the last guy is leaving things. Doesn't even have to be really steep as long as it's steady. No guarantee on that, of course.
In a speech on the Senate floor, Mr. McConnell said he and other Republicans had drawn a clear distinction between the Treasurys $700 billion economic stabilization, which they helped pass in October, and the proposal to aid the American automakers, which he said raised questions about which industries or individuals deserve help.
And the "clear distinction" would be...what? That the bankers had the foresight to F-up by at least an order of magnitude more (in dollar terms) than the car makers? Or that the little 3 have the misfortune of being based in largely blue states and having strong union traditions? Fucking cynical bastards.
I say it will go forward. To much to lose (apparently). More pork has to be added. I'd say 500 - 700M sprinkled on top. And, you dont mess with an upcoming Admin because tit - for - tat will be important when 1T is rolled out for government programs.
I don't know one person who has a job and wants to attrit right now.
I've been thinking about leaving my programming job.
Because of re-orginizations, oppertunities for advancement have been drying up. I have too much ambition to stay in what could be a stable but dead end job.
I have wondered if soldiers were being sent overseas, especially national guard, to make the job numbers look better since 2002. it makes a sick kind of sense only a twisted twit like Bush could love.
"I say it will go forward. To much to lose (apparently). More pork has to be added. I'd say 500 - 700M sprinkled on top. And, you dont mess with an upcoming Admin because tit - for - tat will be important when 1T is rolled out for government programs."
Or, in the alternative, Paulson trots out tomorrow after the senate no vote to announce that the Treasury is making a no-strings attached "loan" to GM and Chrysler out of the remaining TARP funds.
The House adjourned - not impossible to call back in, but unlikely - so no conference committee, no extra pork, no changes period if anything is to pass tomorrow.
Nancy put her political "stones" on the line here, so it seems unlikely that she will call the House back in. Then we have the blame game between the D's and the R's on who left the floater in the Christmas punch bowl...
General Motors Corp. said Thursday that a member of its board of directors and the president of DuPont, Ellen J. Kullman, has resigned to focus on her responsibilities at the chemical company
Then we have the blame game between the D's and the R's on who left the floater in the Christmas punch bowl...
citizen energyecon | Homepage | 12.11.08 - 5:55 pm | #
The bitter almonds almost mask the taste of the floater.
lawyerliz writes:
I hope the GOP is dead permanently and a new party is formed.
Yup, they'll reform as the National Captialist Patriot Party and keep promoting an even harder-right agenda.
Mitch McChinless R-KY showed his true colors by demanding that the UAW reduce their pay packages in line to the Japanese(non-Union) Car makers that line the pockets of many Confederate Senators.
No. But maybe now Thomas Friedman can stick his half baked opinions up his ass because him and his wife will be broke.
Ticker Tape of Doom | 12.11.08 - 6:06 pm | #
The auto bailout is a done deal, but it will have to wait for the new Senate to pass. The Democrats desperately wanted to have political cover to pass this (it isn't very popular), but are going to be denied. GM and Chrysler will both survive until next month
And it isn't a paltry sum- the $15 billion is nothing more than a downpayment. Once started, they will eat through $50 billion per year.
One good thing to do is to set up a local neighborhood watch, and a phone tree.
We did just such a thing in my neighborhood. A few of us keep watch for the sheriff approaching to throw any of our foreclosed families out onto the street. We then activate the phone treee and give the homeowner ample warning.
U$D/JPY tracks with the DJI but on today's 91.38 low, below the Oct low, may be the downside leading indicator. Traders are round number believers and that 90.00 number just 1.38 away looks irresistible. Guess I can't say bombs away huh?
Americans have had a love affairs with their cars for a very long time, to think that we cant make mandatory outside auto manufactors to build, hire, and buy supplies here ins USA...only the largest auto market in the world would be naive.....of course we can and the employees of the big 3 can and will survive.
Republicrats have cover on this - the people suffer from bailout fallout and are tired of it all. Let them fail and restructure. We should have done the same thing with the banks. Protect deposits, haircut bond, perferreds and cut the dividend.
We could have started 7 $100BB banks to lend and instead we lowered leverage ratios from stratosphere levels to absurdly joke levels.
We need to clear the decks and the bad debts.
I am amazed the republicrats are finding their fiscal spine - I do believe Hank and Bush give TARP funds sunday evening and kill the shorts yet again.
Fun times in our intervention market.
They never taught this in corporate finance class - intervention risk. Learn it well.
"Anybody who thinks big business is anymore functional or efficient than a typical gov't bureaucracy is living in a state of denial.
Cynical Dude | 12.11.08 - 6:10 pm | # "
If gov would stop bailing out the broken ones and let the leaner meaner biz to take their place then that could change. I am not hopeful however.
"Why are you guys getting on the Republican's case about this auto bailout?
I would think most readers of this site would commend politicians that voting "NO" when it comes to spending more taxpayer money.
Thomas | 12.11.08 - 6:23 pm | # "
Because they bailed out the largely Republican donor i-banks, but balk at the largely Democratic donor Autos?
Should have been all or nothing with a strong bias for nothing.
Tomorrow's agency bond monetization looks like it will be big. This must be where all the Countrywide mortgages are winding up. The risk takers paid off with fresh-printed money and the New York Fed will own any collateral (houses) recovered.
"You already are on the hook for unsustainable pension and health care plans-it's called THE GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE
Private Sector | 12.11.08 - 6:36 pm | #"
I'm fine with that. It was part of the deal when they signed up. FBI DoD and pencil pushers can factor that in when bidding for jobs.
But BK autos? Not part of the deal. Workers took some risk in exchange for the reward. Thier reward now is that they own a BK auto co instead of a pension.
Cramer claiming Panera bread has all the ingredients to be a big winner here. Who buys overpriced speciality bread when they are broke or worried about a job loss? There is a new Panera a mile away. We never go there. Every day Cramer crams more false information into his show. Where is the teevee police? This is not an infomercial. Somebody plug in a $500 Dyson and suck Cramer off the air.
This is one company that deserves to die given how contemptuously they treat their customers. Pity about the employees' families that will be affected, though.
CathyG | 12.11.08 - 5:14 pm | #
"Because they bailed out the largely Republican donor i-banks, but balk at the largely Democratic donor Autos?
Should have been all or nothing with a strong bias for nothing.
Blackhalo | 12.11.08 - 6:34 pm | # "
Autos aren't as integral to the economy as credit is. If the banks failed (even the investment banks), they'd take autos, etc. down with them. The Big 3 may take some suppliers down with them, but those are probably ones that can't survive without an inefficient GM around anyway.
PSgirl writes:
Wow--B of A has been great to me.
PSgirl | 12.11.08 - 6:49 pm |
BofA has been great to me too until this year.
I called them to ask why they had changed my existing card number went they sent the renewal card and that fool never did answer my question, but he insisted that I needed a HELOC and that I needed to let him transfer me to a specialist. He finally hung up on me.
I hope that call was monitored. This was after they had acquired CW but before the merger closed, he insisted that it was a done deal two months before the deal actually closed...and yes, that was a CW "specialist" he wanted to transfer me to!
That's when I started moving all but minimal savings out of BofA and into my credit union. It makes me nervous to have most of my cash in one place but I haven't found another bank I trust not to be involved in this mess!
"Autos aren't as integral to the economy as credit is. If the banks failed (even the investment banks), they'd take autos, etc. down with them. The Big 3 may take some suppliers down with them
xxxxx | 12.11.08 - 6:50 pm | #"
I've heard this line a lot, and believe it less each time. The bad autos and and the bad banks are all walking dead anyway. There are too many autos for demand and too many suppliers, if they can not make a living off of the remaining autos.
Just received more marketing junk from BofA with a pre-paid stamped return envelope. Filled it full of the local supermarket ads and sent it back. Lifes little pleasures.
Dont blame Jas. He is from the class that supported the Soviet Union till the last breathe of its expiry. Fair to say he is not here in the land of dopes (which have back bone) by lottery but by intelligence (brain seperated from back bone) or simply family wealth or connections. It is a benign tumor of the commonwealth of nations.
Usually having brain without backbone they are happy to drivel at lower orifices.
Not personal Jas. Know you in a hundreds of wayfarers lost in the real world
CR sorry for the words as per Jas. Seen and learned much from this site in the last two years. The vinegar in the wine has been Jas. I believe it would be better for him, given his opinionation, to return to the Ur Knowledge if he can still find it.
The financial industry is scrambling to survive the record losses resulting from laissez-faire irrational exuberance. In the process, the controls that are supposed to protect sensitive data and systems are being compromised - data is literally walking out the door:
I worked for them (First Magnus), and on August 16th 2007 they sent out an e-mail and 6,000 employees lost their jobs. There was no warning and none of the management knew before we did. We all left the same day within hours of receiving the e-mail.
We left our branch in Houston with thousands of loan documents piled from floor to ceiling - we were told a few months prior to retain every document - they took away the shredders and the secure shred bins that we would typically use, and we were drowning in confidential documents like duplicate credit reports, bank statements, duplicate loan applications - every bit of personal information imaginable. Not the normal way to disband a financial company.
Our computers were also left behind. 300 (First Magnus) offices across the country were similarly abandoned.
More about the Financial Costs of Data In-Security:
mmckinl, they got 2 years of a depression where they are the minority party. They should be able to come back in 2010 and attack Obama on not being able to pull the country out of the depression. you think Obama is happy he won that election?
When the banks were wobbling, actually first started wobbling, Bush was on the TV multiple times asking for calm. How many news programs has he been in asking for help for the workers in the auto sector?
Barley:
"When the banks were wobbling, actually first started wobbling, Bush was on the TV multiple times asking for calm. How many news programs has he been in asking for help for the workers in the auto sector?"
You can have runs on the bank, you can't have runs on the car dealership. There is a difference.
"the House voted last night to approve an increased oversight role for the Government Accountability Office (GAO), requiring them to report on how much new lending financial institutions have made since implementation of the Troubled Asset Relief Program. That program was authorized as part of the $700 billion financial industry bailout bill, approved by Congress earlier this year. Lawmakers want to monitor whether banks and other institutions are using the relief funds to increase liquidity."
"I've been thinking about leaving my programming job.
Because of re-orginizations, oppertunities for advancement have been drying up. I have too much ambition to stay in what could be a stable but dead end job.
No worries. Like a cat, I'll land on my feet.
BondsOfSteel | 12.11.08 - 5:51 pm | # "
There is a WHOLE lot of talk about that at my place of employment, as after the voluntary comes the involuntary, and that is no fun for either those who get let go or those who have to do more work with less help.
Jerry writes: We make the jokes about how it's all priced in or how this will now increase EPS, but to be honest I don't understand how the market can't be in a free fall. Who is buying in this market. How many "greater fools" are there?
No problem. Imagine you're in the circus working the high wire, with a net. The FR/TR net.
mmckinl, they got 2 years of a depression where they are the minority party. They should be able to come back in 2010 and attack Obama on not being able to pull the country out of the depression.
this site has a lot of potential, but as a forum, it is potentially dangerous to one's mental health
Jackk,
One of the things that bugs me about the trend in comments here is that the ratio of snarky remarks to open, honest discussion is going higher and higher by the day.
We all enjoy a good sarcastic Nemoism now and then. However, I think people are tending to put a snarky spin on just about everything they say, whether they're serious or not. That way, if their prediction turns out to be wrong, they can always say they were just being sarcastic. If it turns out to be right, they can claim they were serious. I think it's a fear of saying something "different" and a fear of being ridiculed.
Like all parasitic infestations the unproductive "funney-money" and Govt. sectors have killed the host that fed them.
The "funny-money & Govt" sectors need to be reduced by 60% to allow the productive sector to get on with the job at hand. Those who have fed on the body will just have to drop off, they have had it too good for too long.
regards
DeMint(R-SC) warns of riots if Detroit bailout is passed.
Were going to have riots. There are already people rioting because theyre losing their jobs when somebody else is being bailed out. The fairness of it becomes more and more evident as we go along. Because the auto companies may be hurting there are very few companies that arent hurting and are gonna hurt. We dont have enough money to bail everyone out.
A lot of the issue seems to be "what's next?" Some of the world finally seems to have capitulated to the fact that was a real estate bubble...but now what?
nevket240 writes:
Like all parasitic infestations the unproductive "funney-money" and Govt. sectors have killed the host that fed them.
The "funny-money & Govt" sectors need to be reduced by 60% to allow the productive sector to get on with the job at hand. Those who have fed on the body will just have to drop off, they have had it too good for too long.
regards
My hope is either that it gets much much worse or much much better. If it gets much much better, true value will be rewarded in our economy once again. If it gets much much worse, money will take on a role much like it had in the USSR; sort of a fake token in an economy where real value came from your connections, your local pull, and the black market.
After the TARP bailout was resisted predominantly by Republicans, the their credit, I gained newfound respect for them. But 15 billion is a paltry sum in comparision to save a significant industry.
People are going to voluntarily attrit in this economy? I don't think so.
I did. Startup was bought 18 months ago - part of my deal was a pretty decent severance - had to slog out 16 months in the inefficient pointless bullshit that is American Corporatism - first chance I had to "attrit" I jumped.
Didn't even have to think about it.
Anybody who thinks big business is anymore functional or efficient than a typical gov't bureaucracy is living in a state of denial.
Sadly, I have no faith in our elected officials to even understand the problem, let alone do something proactive about it.
All I can hope is that in their attempts to do something, they don't make an already tough situation into something far graver. Sadly, I think the Fed is already taking us down that path. I cannot imagine the convulsions the market and economy would take if the Fed were to attempt to remove any of its alphabet facilities.
Mr. Beach writes:
Sadly, I have no faith in our elected officials to even understand the problem, let alone do something proactive about it.
Forget this illusion that they can do anything for you, or that they're there to help you at all. Do your best to ignore them, and hope that they ignore you. Wait until they fade into irrelevancy. Invest your efforts not in writing letters to someone who won't read them, this is no better than shouting into a bag. Instead, work on local connections, get invested in your neighbors, share tools, etc. One good thing to do is to set up a local neighborhood watch, and a phone tree.
wow first?
Temporary pullback, setting up for sustained future growth.
I'm thinking my mini B of A in my Seattle supermarket, barely a block from an actual branch, might be a little redundant.
Catholic girl, you win! Your prize is a Telefunken U47. With leather.
As many reductions as possible will be made through attrition, the lender said.
Seriously, WTF? Who is going to voluntarily give up their job in this economy?
The entire city of Seattle is redundant
That might hurt their stellar customer service.
I am so excited...
We make the jokes about how it's all priced in or how this will now increase EPS, but to be honest I don't understand how the market can't be in a free fall. Who is buying in this market. How many "greater fools" are there?
People are going to voluntarily attrit in this economy? I don't think so.
I don't know one person who has a job and wants to attrit right now.
Do you?
They'll have to hire some attrition enforcers.
I'm thinking my mini B of A in my Seattle supermarket, barely a block from an actual branch, might be a little redundant.
~~~~
The branch or the supermarket location ?
the PPT is buying where do you think the TARP $ is hiding?
Consolidate a Starbucks, a grocery store, a Blockbuster Video, and a bank into one store - now that would be efficient.
Meanwhile BofA says bailout wil trigger CDS
I have a friend who's started going long in the market. He used to be shorting like me and we would talk almost every day about the market.
Now when the market takes a crap he doesn't call me anymore. I can't figure out why.
And what do they mean, third largest bank?
In terms of assets, BofA is easily #1 you count the Merrill acquisition. Unless I added wrong.
[Seriously, WTF? Who is going to voluntarily give up their job in this economy?]
Happens all the time. "We are offering X months severence and if you retire now you will retain your pension plan in its current state before we make structural changes..."
Then, the next offer is "We're offering X/2 severence..."
Who is buying in this market.
~~~~
The PPT ( Plunge Protection Team). They hoped to keep it together until XMas ... The Santa Claus rally is over ...
Rev. Elmer Gantry writes:
Consolidate a Starbucks, a grocery store, a Blockbuster Video, and a bank into one store - now that would be efficient.
Rev. Elmer Gantry | 12.11.08 - 5:00 pm | #
Naturally the supermarket I speak of has a Starbucks and a video rental... oh, and a little medical clinic.
"where do you think the TARP $ is hiding?"
--Catholic girl
Best theory I've heard is that the TARP $$ are hiding in Treasuries. But what do I know?
Gosh, I thought we bailed out Wall Street to save Main Street. I hope I wasn't being lied to by those nice gentlemen.
Attrition is going to become much more of action verb...
They'll have to hire some attrition enforcers.
rich | 12.11.08 - 4:59 pm | #
Dear god, I hope they haven't been buying life insurance on their employees . . . I do still have some friends at ML and BAC.
Looks like good enough news for a major rally on wall street to me. Not.
In my business as a doctor, I am just starting to see the real job losses as patients are coming in this month, in particular, stating they will be out of their job at the end of the month. The snow ball is growing rapidly here. For those that think the worst is over, brace yourselves for reality. Job losses will mounting this next year.
"Seriously, WTF? Who is going to voluntarily give up their job in this economy?"
I would. My company gives great severance. And with my wife's company going kaput most likely in March I want to go from beinged called DINKs to NINKs.
The problem with voluntary layoffs though is that the good people always take the money and run. You're left with all the chaffe.
Renewed sellin AH. What gives?
Great...they get taxpayer bailout to pay excessive dividends, excesssive compensation and we get stuck paying for unemployment insurance...taxypers bend over
Eventually, this depression will end, and we'll be stuck with 6 or 7 national banks and, at most, one auto company. The future looks bleaker than the past.
I wonder if the analysts are going to figure to set the expectations for weekly layoffs to be higher next week...
[Nutter writes:
In my business as a doctor]
Really? Do you know Jas?
Eventually, this depression will end
Optimist!
OK am I cycnical to think these may be CDO's they wrote CDS on? And if they are paying above market rates by virtue of a lower spread with Fed loans, are they establishing an inflated mark to market?
JPMorgan Seeks $780 Million of CDOs of Buyout Loans (Update2)
By Pierre Paulden, Jody Shenn and Neil Unmack
Dec. 11 (Bloomberg) -- JPMorgan Chase & Co., the largest U.S. bank, is seeking to buy as much as $780 million of AAA rated portions of collateralized loan obligations, according to a list of securities the company circulated to traders and investors.
The bank is asking for offers tomorrow from holders of the debt backed by high-yield, high-risk corporate loans, said five traders who declined to be identified because the request isnt public.
New York-based JPMorgan, which has received capital from the government and has obtained loans from the Federal Reserve, told traders it may be willing to accept yields of about 4 percentage points more than the three-month London interbank offered rate for dollars, three of the people said. Thats less than the spread of 5 percentage points that the securities typically trade at, according to JPMorgans research department.
They may be saying, Weve got this advantageous funding, so lets own the market, said David Castillo, a senior trader of structured-finance bonds at Further Lane Securities in San Francisco.
JPMorgan Seeks $780 Million of CDOs of Buyout Loans (Update2) - Bloomberg.com
Tough time to be an auto dealer in paradise : 750 auto dealership jobs cut over the last year, about 15% of the workforce. I guess they can go to work in the hotel/tourism industry. Also great comments at the end of the article. I see the people in the islands still haven't gotten past the "stupid haoles," stuff that went on when I lived there in the late 70s. Stuck in time I guess...,
honoluluadvertiser.com | Honolulu | The Honolulu Advertiser
How can there be redundancy with BofA and Merril after I was assured by C&C that the merger wouldn't happen and was given no end of crap for saying it would.
Ken Lewis doesn't throw many curve balls.
energyecon, I wondered the same thing - where's the swindle?
whats a haole?
Consolidate a Starbucks, a grocery store, a Blockbuster Video, and a bank into one store - now that would be efficient.
Rev. Elmer Gantry | 12.11.08 - 5:00 pm | #
I drove by a place in Indiana where they'd consolidated a tavern and a gun shop. THAT's efficiency.
Yalt | 12.11.08 - 5:08 pm | #
All you need to make that complete is the undertaker!
lol yalt
To Nutter :
As a doctor, then you understand the following really well :
Depressions are like bleeding. Eventually it stops.
Everything is still OK in America. How do I know this? Haven't seen many nail salons closing up have you?. When they start then you'll know Armegeddon is upon us.
BTW, Catholic Girl, TARP is being punished in the pricipal's office having been sent there by Sister Mary Perpetual Help.
"I drove by a place in Indiana where they'd consolidated a tavern and a gun shop. THAT's efficiency."
Tough place to get into a bar fight.
All you need to make that complete is the undertaker!
Crematorium ....
Fries with that ?
I believe "Haole" means foreigner in Hawaiian and may specifically refer to whites.
From a couple threads back on eating delights in Berkeley.
Is their still a "Top Dog" standup only still operating at Telegraph and Shadick? How about "Kips upstairs" a 1/2 block away?
Eat at these places during my undergrad days...
Also, how about "Giant Burger", across from Top dog. I remember the mid night runs for the munchies...
"I was assured by C&C that the merger wouldn't happen"
I didn't assure anything...I posted a rumor. Ugh!
® - you work for B of A don't you???
"Depressions are like bleeding. Eventually it stops."
Sometimes that happens when the patient has no more blood pressure.
Crematorium / Pizza Parlor ?
TARP money is all in Treasuries until year end.
I hear there might be openings for pizza deliverers.
Crematorium / Pizza Parlor ?
Pizza Parlor by day ...
ask for the thick crust ... ummmm
® writes:
"I drove by a place in Indiana where they'd consolidated a tavern and a gun shop. THAT's efficiency."
Did it have a drive thru window?
What a despicable company BAC is. I don't think it will be long before they're lined up for a Citi type deal of their own.
This is one company that deserves to die given how contemptuously they treat their customers. Pity about the employees' families that will be affected, though.
Rescued from prior thread:
"Clients know that Bernard Madoff has a personal interest in maintaining the unblemished record of value, fair-dealing, and high ethical standards that has ..."
LOL!
Any word from the Senate??
Did it have a drive thru window?
Aren't those only in Texas?
" Rev. Elmer Gantry writes:
Consolidate a Starbucks, a grocery store, a Blockbuster Video, and a bank into one store - now that would be efficient.
Rev. Elmer Gantry | 12.11.08 - 5:00 pm | # "
Consolidating banks and pizza parlors would be efficient.
crispy&cole,
You not only posted a rumor, you defended it and gave out a ration of crap to me for deigning to suggest that history has shown Ken Lewis does what he says he will do and therefore the ML merger will go through.
I was not incorrect in my assessment.
Any word from the Senate??
~~~~~
"F them yankees ..."
sorry , way, way, way off topic
i think CR and this site are great, but unfortunately, visiting this (or any other) site on daily basis seems to promote narrow-mindedness and bigotry.
here is an excerpt from an article on how islamic youth in the west gets radicalized via internet forums and blogs. sounds like a lot of people here:
"websites are far less relevant than blogs and chat rooms, in which echo chambers help to radicalize people online. the new forums have the same influence that these radical mosques played in the previous generation of terrorists. Conspiracy theories, fueling outrage, are spread in rapid fashion, as individuals seek and select the rooms most compatible with their views and abandon the ones they disagree with. In a sense, the followers vote with their mice and select the views they like.
offline, those who might believe that they are isolated in their anger and fear, or in their incipient convictions, might be tempted to start thinking something else. But they can easily find one another through the internet, and they become more extreme in their beliefs, simple because so many people seem to agree with them. Lets assume that a very few people in the world share the same strange belief, say that the moon is made of green cheese. Through a process of self-selection, they find each other on the same forum. Soon they will assume that everyone shares this conviction because only the true believers air their views and the rest stay silent. through this process, strange and potentially dangerous beliefs, which would otherwise fall of their own weight, can be hardened as a result of the internet."
this site has a lot of potential, but as a forum, it is potentially dangerous to one's mental health, in my humble opinion.
whats a haole?
Ponyless in NJ
a person without a soul
® - Do you work for B of a?
JPM and BAC will both need a C like bailout... Accept it now, it will make it easier in the future.
Greek protesters broaden demands to focus on jobs
By MENELAOS HADJICOSTIS and DEREK GATOPOULOS 1 hour ago
ATHENS, Greece (AP) Students pelted police stations with rocks and pledged to stay on the streets Thursday as protesters turned their rage over the police killing of a teenager into a wider rebellion against economic hardship.
Demonstrators also overturned cars and blocked streets in central Athens, but the country was largely spared the extreme violence that has characterized the five days since police shot and killed 15-year-old Alexandros Grigoropoulos. In Athens, demonstrators vowed to dig in, planning more rallies to vent anger over economic hardship exacerbated by the global financial crisis.
"What started as an outburst of rage over Alexandros' killing is now becoming a more organized form of protest," said Petros Constantinou, an organizer with the Socialist Workers Party.
Protesters began handing out fliers listing their demands, which include having riot police pulled from the streets and the reversal of public spending cuts that have heightened insecurity over jobs.
The article requested is no longer available.
Pilgrim, so "haole" refers to white people in general or just white people from the mainland? Is it only used by native [ethnic] Hawaiians? Sorry. I realize this is OT, but am just curious...
Anoddamoose writes:
\tSometimes that happens when the patient has no more blood pressure.
\t Anoddamoose | \t\t\t\t12.11.08 - 5:11 pm
---
Like everything else in life, the Devil is in the details.
He didn't say how it stops...
I would love to be optimistic about severance. My assumptions are that even as little as six months salary is a pretty decent package and that many of these folks would be looking for work for much longer than six months. Frankly, I would like to be wrong about that...
"whats a haole?
Ponyless in NJ"
I thought that was polite version of ahole.
saddlebag, great. thanks for the explanation..
Sure don't. But why would it matter if I did?
OT-Watching Santa Claus is Coming to Town last night with the little one, and they refer to the lady that raises young Kris Kringle as "Tanta" Kringle....they said it 3 or 4 times. Never caught it before. Tanta_Vive!
jackk, so.. what kind of narrow-mindedness and bigotry gets promoted in the CR forums? The hatred of corruption and hipocrisy?
"this site has a lot of potential, but as a forum, it is potentially dangerous to one's mental health, in my humble opinion.
jackk | 12.11.08 - 5:16 pm | # "
Nah. I found my way here because this a few a other places were the only places where a negative view of the economy could be found. Everybody else was happyhappyhappy, nows a great time to buy, etc. etc. I came here because of all the people who drank the other koolaid.
Anyway, why do you assume that none of us go elsewhere?
Seriously, WTF? Who is going to voluntarily give up their job in this economy?
j marston
People who've made a fortune shorting the U.S. economy?
landlord-
great zappa reference...one of my favorite albums.
What % of the total amount is the cut?
Anyone??
Ciao
MS
Hatred of Crooks and Scamsters!
Sorry if I'm getting annoying, but i am tickled by my own JJ impression.
What? I've been reading CR daily for nearly two years. Hatred of idiocy and lazy thinking is about the only hatred I see here!
Only 35K? Out of how many worldwide & where (mostly US I assume but mostly NC or NYC or what)? The Bloomie link doesn't say. Anyone know?
Thank you calculated risk. Because of your discussion and comments section, I just went toe to toe in a discussion about FDIC bond guarantees and the fed issuing its own bonds with some of the top guys in my firm from new york, and, to the astonishment of my entire office, knew as much about these esoteric topics as they did. Looked like a real supergenius (am not) and its all thanks to you guys. I love you guys.
jackk:
Then...don't come here.
Besides, we always have Jas and PCA with their political and investing views.
Take what's written with grain of salt and do your own due diligence.
Not to mention that you missed the Great Canadian Flame War that took down EHP and several others.
If...jackk is your real name...
Eh?
Reposting mp's update:
---
mp writes:
CONJURE'S GLOBAL DEPRESSION CLOCK
The time is--
11:59:48
mp | 12.11.08 - 3:21 pm
---
Only 12 more "seconds" to go! Time to get my 18th century style hussle ready!
You don't know jack, jackk...
Mindless agreement, HERE?! You must be blogging into a different CR my friend - ask c&c or Rob Dawg about our identical thinking with respect to long term liquid hydrocarbon production rates...LMAO - in fact, the best part about this place is the conflicting and sometimes reasoned discourse.
That's why I come here, that plus Rob Dawg is good for the occasional killer one liner.
Hoopajoops:
You go girl!
Uh - huh!
Here's a great reason why a lot of thinking people end up at CR: the ten worst predictions of 2008, by our friends at Foreign Policy magazine. This is what the gov't and MSM had to offer:
Foreign Policy: The 10 Worst Predictions for 2008
I miss Evil Henry Paulson...I wish he would return.
I have a friend who's started going long in the market. He used to be shorting like me and we would talk almost every day about the market.
I have a friend who has been listening to me rant about the market for a year. He finally asked me what he should do. I told him to buy SRS. He started watching it and bought at $80. I'm thinking he may have to weed my garden next year.
How does 2 and 20 apply to weeding? I'm thinking he may have to mulch as well.
Hatred of idiocy and lazy thinking is about the only hatred I see here!
Amen.
I propose the formation of a CR distressed asset investment fund managed by the more
pragmatic types ( including yours truly).
Cheers,
Kilgore Trout
I miss Evil Henry Paulson...I wish he would return.
~~~~
No ....... you don't ...
Evil Henry Paulson was a great poster. I know he's reading me right now. Please come back..
And CSC you too.
It took me two days to find out why the Greeks were protesting to begin with - all the articles said that the rioting started after they burned a police car and the police shot a kid. No mention why they were initially protesting.
They were protesting "rampant discontent over the conservative government's economic policies".
A fun definition of Haole
Haole - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
looks like it might be about 10%...hard to tell if all the MER jobs get thrown into to total amount or are we just talking about BAC.
I guess 30k-35K sounds better then 10% although I don't understand why. The real number is more likely to be higher.
Ciao
MS
--
"idiocy and lazy thinking" are results of life-long doping.
Jas
The Federal gov't is about to discover that by destroying its job base and home ownership that it now possess a population which is very difficult to tax and can only be controlled by immeidate local application of force, i.e. Mexico.
I doubt if turning the US into Mexico will be a net benefit.
It's going to be a wakeup call.
Jackk:
It's the same on all blogging threads. The occasional inflammatory commentary is not a threat, it's just the friction generated by an exchange of ideas. Sure, sometimes it's just venting, but that's usually a healthy thing.
By and large, the people who regularly comment here have a lot to contribute to each discussion and are courteous to one another. You need to develop a thicker skin.
Hoopajoops LTD
Thought you meant THE Henry Paulson ...
soory ...
I told him to buy SRS. He started watching it and bought at $80. I'm thinking he may have to weed my garden next year.
Sounds to me like he found a great entry point.
I'm willing to pray for the CR fund to do well, we can all lend our abilities...
"Renewed sellin AH. What gives?"
"Any word from the Senate??"
Because of the procedural hurdles, Mr. Reid could not force a vote on the auto measures on Thursday. If the Republicans refuse to allow immediate votes, he has laid the groundwork for a vote Friday morning that would end the discussion if Republicans refused to support the bill.
G.M., Teetering on Bankruptcy, Pleads for a Federal Bailout - NY Times
The Dems and southern Repubs in the Senate are playing a giant game of chicken. The House adjourned after passing the bill worked out with Team Shrub and Pelosi says she's not bringing them back.
Tomorrow looks like a potential circuit breaker day. Direction yet to be determined.
Kilgore
Step away from your latest novel and propose a CR investment fund.
Put the right people on the board and i'd buy in.
thanks
They were protesting "rampant discontent over the conservative government's economic policies".
Speed
~~~~~
Your post has been noted
~ Homeland Security
12th percentile, i think in a couple of weeks you'll get a present from your friend for SRS at $80... or so i hope for purely selfish reasons.
fried writes:
I miss Evil Henry Paulson...I wish he would return.
fried | 12.11.08 - 5:27 pm | #
I second that, and if he's posting under a different name I wish someone would clue me in. I haven't had the time lately to read all the comments, and may very well be skipping his just because he uses a different handle now.
jerry, don't think he is posting. he had a pretty distinctive writing voice. kind of preppy and conceited, but in a knowledgeable and informative way.
Over the next 3 years? Who cares? The world will be a different place in three years.
How many are you going to layoff this month???
Nancy adjourned sine die, hmm? That does set up a grand roll of the dice with all of us holding bets...
"Any word from the Senate??"
~~~~
Vitter the whoremonger said he would filibuster ...
"idiocy and lazy thinking" are results of life-long doping.
Life-long doping? I thought it was born-and-bred.
I don't know one person who has a job and wants to attrit right now.
do you?
Me. But I'm definitely in a different mindset than most of the people even here on CR. I wrote my expectations of the future off a couple of years ago. I was pretty sure there'd be another washout of the IT industry and it would become even more contentious and unpleasant.
That's why I sold my house in 2004.
.
BAILOUT IS DOA;
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/12/business/12auto.html?_r=1&hp
Sounds to me like he found a great entry point.
SRS has been very good to me this last year. If you had patience the old buy low and sell when people are stupid has worked well. This next year should be buy low and sell when people realize the REITs are done. There should be a large profit opportunity when the collective stupidity has a slight decline and no one wants to own those REITs. Sadly for them i won't take my winnings and spend them at some failing mall that they own.
SRS at $200 by Easter is all but guaranteed. That sort of return buys a lot of fake green plastic grass for your easter basket. Resist that.
To anon re: Tanta, in Dutch/Flemish, "tante" means "aunt." That is what you heard in "Santa Claus is Coming to Town." "Santa Claus" comes from the Dutch "Sinterklaas."
BAILOUT IS DOA;
BAILOUT IS DOA;
~~~~~
Welcome to GDII ... the official beginning ...
Merry Christmas !
Anyone near the courthouse steps in Detroit...look for a team of lawyers filling for bk...who is first? I say Chrysler..
If they somehow pull the Bailout out of their ass the market will have a heck of a rally, because the market is stupid like that.
Bills are never DOA in the senate. The GOP's resistance is just so it can get stuff slathered on. This is no new news.
Saw this one coming ...
liquidated today ... new lows very soon ...
BAILOUT IS DOA;
MaurS | 12.11.08 - 5:40 pm | #
Freakin' Helloscan
According to BB TV Dodd and Corker(?) are trying to hammer out a compromise but it was my understanding that Pelosi would brook no changes to the original bill passed in the House and if the House has adjourned indefinitely well I don't see how a new compromised bill would pass.
I doubt if turning the US into Mexico will be a net benefit.
It's going to be a wakeup call.
Broward Horne | Homepage | 12.11.08 - 5:31 pm | #
The Reagan and Bush policies were always about turning the US into Mexico. Extremely concentrated wealth surrounded by millions of peasants. A society of two distinct classes and to hell with the middle class.
Be careful what you wish for.
No problem. All those workers will just fall back on credit cards and savings to get by.......DOH!
Bailout DOA !
The South Rides Again !
YEEEEEEEEEEEHAAAAAAAAAA!
........
Time to dump the south, past time ...
Hoopajoops LTD writes:
"Bills are never DOA in the senate. The GOP's resistance is just so it can get stuff slathered on. This is no new news."
Hoopajoops LTD | Homepage | 12.11.08 - 5:41 pm | #
Ordinarily I would agree. But when the Minority Leader takes the floor to make a major speech, that does have a ring of finality to it that the yapping of lesser Senators does not.
Given what's going on, would anyone here short Obama's first term? And he wanted the job.
I for one will also add in that I miss EHP. Very smart. Very informative.
Yeah, auto workers can just take out a HELOC until this all blows over.
The Reagan and Bush policies were always about turning the US into Mexico
You should at least keep the record straight -
Today in History: NAFTA signed into law by President Bill Clinton. [12/08/93]
"NAFTA signed into law by President Bill Clinton. [12/08/93]"
There's a reason it reads as,
"The truth,
the whole truth
and nothing but the truth".
EvilHenryPaulson was being impersonated and said he would be back after a few weeks.
I repeat the request for registered names maintaining anonymity.
I tried to get the TARP money to hide at my place, but it wouldn't.
15 billion = 45 days in Iraq.
Discharged vets will find no jobs above minimum wage and no loan money for a college education.
I wonder what the social fallout from that will be?
Given what's going on, would anyone here short Obama's first term? And he wanted the job.
JohnR(VA) | 12.11.08 - 5:45 pm | #
Black Man Given Nation's Worst Job
WASHINGTONAfrican-American man Barack Obama, 47, was given the least-desirable job in the entire country Tuesday when he was elected president of the United States of America. In his new high-stress, low-reward position, Obama will be charged with such tasks as completely overhauling the nation's broken-down economy, repairing the crumbling infrastructure, and generally having to please more than 300 million Americans and cater to their every whim on a daily basis. As part of his duties, the black man will have to spend four to eight years cleaning up the messes other people left behind. The job comes with such intense scrutiny and so certain a guarantee of failure that only one other person even bothered applying for it. Said scholar and activist Mark L. Denton, "It just goes to show you that, in this country, a black man still can't catch a break."
"Given what's going on, would anyone here short Obama's first term? And he wanted the job.
JohnR(VA) | 12.11.08 - 5:45 pm | # "
The more desperate things get before his watch begins, the more power and leeway he has to do what he wants. All he has to do is describe an upward arc from where the last guy is leaving things. Doesn't even have to be really steep as long as it's steady. No guarantee on that, of course.
From the NY Times article on the DOA bailout:
In a speech on the Senate floor, Mr. McConnell said he and other Republicans had drawn a clear distinction between the Treasurys $700 billion economic stabilization, which they helped pass in October, and the proposal to aid the American automakers, which he said raised questions about which industries or individuals deserve help.
And the "clear distinction" would be...what? That the bankers had the foresight to F-up by at least an order of magnitude more (in dollar terms) than the car makers? Or that the little 3 have the misfortune of being based in largely blue states and having strong union traditions? Fucking cynical bastards.
Ticker Tape of Doom writes:
15 billion = 45 days in Iraq.
Discharged vets will find no jobs above minimum wage and no loan money for a college education.
I wonder what the social fallout from that will be?
Ticker Tape of Doom | 12.11.08 - 5:48 pm | #
Maybe that's why the troops will never be brought home?
I see KB Toys just filed Chapter 22--is there a Retail Implode-o-Meter where we can keep up with all this?
Yahoo! 404 - Page Not Found
"Discharged vets will find no jobs above minimum wage and no loan money for a college education.
I wonder what the social fallout from that will be?"
Ticker Tape of Doom | 12.11.08 - 5:48 pm | #
You can always re-up. See your sergeant.
crispy&cole writes:
BAILOUT IS DOA;
I say it will go forward. To much to lose (apparently). More pork has to be added. I'd say 500 - 700M sprinkled on top. And, you dont mess with an upcoming Admin because tit - for - tat will be important when 1T is rolled out for government programs.
I don't know one person who has a job and wants to attrit right now.
I've been thinking about leaving my programming job.
Because of re-orginizations, oppertunities for advancement have been drying up. I have too much ambition to stay in what could be a stable but dead end job.
No worries. Like a cat, I'll land on my feet.
Yalt, 22?
"i am tickled by my own JJ impression."
Yes it's DYNO-MITE!
Maybe that's why the troops will never be brought home?
You only have to serve for the time you sign up for.
I think the social cost will be immense.
I wonder what the social fallout from that will be?"
Ticker Tape of Doom | 12.11.08 - 5:48 pm
Back on the payroll for civil programs. (ie security)
BH i'm not talking NAFTA. I'm talking tax policy, crony capitalism and dismantling regulatory structures.
Of course, given your predilection for Freepers, I am not surprised you do not get it.
You can always re-up. See your sergeant.
True.
I have wondered if soldiers were being sent overseas, especially national guard, to make the job numbers look better since 2002. it makes a sick kind of sense only a twisted twit like Bush could love.
A second 11.
"I say it will go forward. To much to lose (apparently). More pork has to be added. I'd say 500 - 700M sprinkled on top. And, you dont mess with an upcoming Admin because tit - for - tat will be important when 1T is rolled out for government programs."
Or, in the alternative, Paulson trots out tomorrow after the senate no vote to announce that the Treasury is making a no-strings attached "loan" to GM and Chrysler out of the remaining TARP funds.
The House adjourned - not impossible to call back in, but unlikely - so no conference committee, no extra pork, no changes period if anything is to pass tomorrow.
Nancy put her political "stones" on the line here, so it seems unlikely that she will call the House back in. Then we have the blame game between the D's and the R's on who left the floater in the Christmas punch bowl...
....."the beatings will continue, until morale improves".
General Motors Corp. said Thursday that a member of its board of directors and the president of DuPont, Ellen J. Kullman, has resigned to focus on her responsibilities at the chemical company
--
SP Futures keep working down. Govt intervention driven rallies don't have legs. Dopes keep getting sucked in.
Jas
Of course, given your predilection for Freepers, I am not surprised you do not get it
When you reward lies, you get more lies.
Until you yourself become one.
Then we have the blame game between the D's and the R's on who left the floater in the Christmas punch bowl...
citizen energyecon | Homepage | 12.11.08 - 5:55 pm | #
The bitter almonds almost mask the taste of the floater.
Then we have the blame game between the D's and the R's on who left the floater in the Christmas punch bowl...
~~~~~~
Republicans will take a direct hit on this one.
Even Pat Buchanan says so ...
The Republican Party may be kaput ...
"Eventually, this depression will end"
The dinosaurs lived for 160 million years and ended. I doubt a depression would last quite that long.
mmckinl,
The GOP is dead for a generation, and good f'ing riddance.
Can we talk about this Bernard Madoff case?
Madoff Charged in $50 Billion Fraud at Advisory Firm (Update3) - Bloomberg.com
This could be a huge, huge event. or a nothingburger. But i am intrigued. Thoughts?
lawyerliz writes:
I hope the GOP is dead permanently and a new party is formed.
Yup, they'll reform as the National Captialist Patriot Party and keep promoting an even harder-right agenda.
Mitch McChinless R-KY showed his true colors by demanding that the UAW reduce their pay packages in line to the Japanese(non-Union) Car makers that line the pockets of many Confederate Senators.
No. But maybe now Thomas Friedman can stick his half baked opinions up his ass because him and his wife will be broke.
Ticker Tape of Doom | 12.11.08 - 6:06 pm | #
Second that.
The auto bailout is a done deal, but it will have to wait for the new Senate to pass. The Democrats desperately wanted to have political cover to pass this (it isn't very popular), but are going to be denied. GM and Chrysler will both survive until next month
And it isn't a paltry sum- the $15 billion is nothing more than a downpayment. Once started, they will eat through $50 billion per year.
Hoopajoops LTD writes:
One good thing to do is to set up a local neighborhood watch, and a phone tree.
We did just such a thing in my neighborhood. A few of us keep watch for the sheriff approaching to throw any of our foreclosed families out onto the street. We then activate the phone treee and give the homeowner ample warning.
Eight families saved and going strong.
Well, so much for the Regan Democrats, Latinos and Blacks...
The Repubs are shrinking to new lows...
UAW seeks last redoubt in United States of TARPistan.
Defiant. Will not attrit.
C
U$D/JPY tracks with the DJI but on today's 91.38 low, below the Oct low, may be the downside leading indicator. Traders are round number believers and that 90.00 number just 1.38 away looks irresistible. Guess I can't say bombs away huh?
Why are you guys getting on the Republican's case about this auto bailout?
I would think most readers of this site would commend politicians that voting "NO" when it comes to spending more taxpayer money.
Broward Horne writes:
You should at least keep the record straight -
404 Not Found posts
freerepublic? Geez, just come out and say you're a ditto head and that you watch Fox News. How embarrassing.
BofA just tore down a perfectly good and realtively new gas station/store/car wash combo at 7515 Greenville Ave in Dallas replaced with a spiffy bank branch. In three years it will probably convert to a food pantry for the poor or a gas station selling 50 cent regular.
Map of Bank Of America, 7515 Greenville Ave, Dallas, TX 75231 on Dallas Citysearch
Bank of America to Close 59 Branches in Texas' Dallas, Tarrant Counties.
Bank of America to Close 59 Branches in Texas' Dallas, Tarrant Counties. | Knight Ridder/Tribune Business News | Find Articles at BNET
Americans have had a love affairs with their cars for a very long time, to think that we cant make mandatory outside auto manufactors to build, hire, and buy supplies here ins USA...only the largest auto market in the world would be naive.....of course we can and the employees of the big 3 can and will survive.
Republicrats have cover on this - the people suffer from bailout fallout and are tired of it all. Let them fail and restructure. We should have done the same thing with the banks. Protect deposits, haircut bond, perferreds and cut the dividend.
We could have started 7 $100BB banks to lend and instead we lowered leverage ratios from stratosphere levels to absurdly joke levels.
We need to clear the decks and the bad debts.
I am amazed the republicrats are finding their fiscal spine - I do believe Hank and Bush give TARP funds sunday evening and kill the shorts yet again.
Fun times in our intervention market.
They never taught this in corporate finance class - intervention risk. Learn it well.
"Anybody who thinks big business is anymore functional or efficient than a typical gov't bureaucracy is living in a state of denial.
Cynical Dude | 12.11.08 - 6:10 pm | # "
If gov would stop bailing out the broken ones and let the leaner meaner biz to take their place then that could change. I am not hopeful however.
I say that the gov buy out the big three at current valuations, cheaper than what they are asking for...
Reorganize them, trim them down and turn around and sell them to Americans/employees thru a stock purchase plan.
Bernard L. Madoff will go the way of David Foster Wallace
"I say that the gov buy out the big three at current valuations, cheaper than what they are asking for...
Reorganize them, trim them down and turn around and sell them to Americans/employees thru a stock purchase plan.
Anonymous | 12.11.08 - 6:30 pm | # "
Why should I be on the hook for an unsustainable pension and health care plan when I don't get one?
We're all redundant now.
or shell shocked!
"Why are you guys getting on the Republican's case about this auto bailout?
I would think most readers of this site would commend politicians that voting "NO" when it comes to spending more taxpayer money.
Thomas | 12.11.08 - 6:23 pm | # "
Because they bailed out the largely Republican donor i-banks, but balk at the largely Democratic donor Autos?
Should have been all or nothing with a strong bias for nothing.
" Gary writes:
mmckinl,
The GOP is dead for a generation, and good f'ing riddance.
Gary | 12.11.08 - 5:59 pm | # "
That was said of the Democrats in 2004
Why should I be on the hook for an unsustainable pension and health care plan when I don't get one?
Blackhalo | 12.11.08 - 6:31 pm | #
You already are on the hook for unsustainable pension and health care plans-it's called THE GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE
"Yep. and guess what cable network relies on auto advertising the most?
Ticker Tape of Doom | 12.11.08 - 6:11 pm | # "
ESPN?
Tomorrow's agency bond monetization looks like it will be big. This must be where all the Countrywide mortgages are winding up. The risk takers paid off with fresh-printed money and the New York Fed will own any collateral (houses) recovered.
"You already are on the hook for unsustainable pension and health care plans-it's called THE GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE
Private Sector | 12.11.08 - 6:36 pm | #"
I'm fine with that. It was part of the deal when they signed up. FBI DoD and pencil pushers can factor that in when bidding for jobs.
But BK autos? Not part of the deal. Workers took some risk in exchange for the reward. Thier reward now is that they own a BK auto co instead of a pension.
Cramer claiming Panera bread has all the ingredients to be a big winner here. Who buys overpriced speciality bread when they are broke or worried about a job loss? There is a new Panera a mile away. We never go there. Every day Cramer crams more false information into his show. Where is the teevee police? This is not an infomercial. Somebody plug in a $500 Dyson and suck Cramer off the air.
This is one company that deserves to die given how contemptuously they treat their customers. Pity about the employees' families that will be affected, though.
CathyG | 12.11.08 - 5:14 pm | #
Wow--B of A has been great to me.
"Because they bailed out the largely Republican donor i-banks, but balk at the largely Democratic donor Autos?
Should have been all or nothing with a strong bias for nothing.
Blackhalo | 12.11.08 - 6:34 pm | # "
Autos aren't as integral to the economy as credit is. If the banks failed (even the investment banks), they'd take autos, etc. down with them. The Big 3 may take some suppliers down with them, but those are probably ones that can't survive without an inefficient GM around anyway.
PSgirl writes:
Wow--B of A has been great to me.
PSgirl | 12.11.08 - 6:49 pm |
BofA has been great to me too until this year.
I called them to ask why they had changed my existing card number went they sent the renewal card and that fool never did answer my question, but he insisted that I needed a HELOC and that I needed to let him transfer me to a specialist. He finally hung up on me.
I hope that call was monitored. This was after they had acquired CW but before the merger closed, he insisted that it was a done deal two months before the deal actually closed...and yes, that was a CW "specialist" he wanted to transfer me to!
That's when I started moving all but minimal savings out of BofA and into my credit union. It makes me nervous to have most of my cash in one place but I haven't found another bank I trust not to be involved in this mess!
Catholic girl,
We ain't gonna squash it so you don't have to wash it.
"Autos aren't as integral to the economy as credit is. If the banks failed (even the investment banks), they'd take autos, etc. down with them. The Big 3 may take some suppliers down with them
xxxxx | 12.11.08 - 6:50 pm | #"
I've heard this line a lot, and believe it less each time. The bad autos and and the bad banks are all walking dead anyway. There are too many autos for demand and too many suppliers, if they can not make a living off of the remaining autos.
Just received more marketing junk from BofA with a pre-paid stamped return envelope. Filled it full of the local supermarket ads and sent it back. Lifes little pleasures.
Dont blame Jas. He is from the class that supported the Soviet Union till the last breathe of its expiry. Fair to say he is not here in the land of dopes (which have back bone) by lottery but by intelligence (brain seperated from back bone) or simply family wealth or connections. It is a benign tumor of the commonwealth of nations.
Usually having brain without backbone they are happy to drivel at lower orifices.
Not personal Jas. Know you in a hundreds of wayfarers lost in the real world
JohnR(VA) writes:
"Discharged vets will find no jobs above minimum wage and no loan money for a college education.
I wonder what the social fallout from that will be?"
Ticker Tape of Doom | 12.11.08 - 5:48 pm | #
think TIMOTHY MCVEIGH, who couldn't quite make the adjustment from lean, mean, killing machine to night shift at his old burger king job.
haole means "white" in hawaiian.
hapa-haole means "half-white"
hapa by itself would probably also apply to dakine next occupant of da white house, aka "braddah barry".
CR sorry for the words as per Jas. Seen and learned much from this site in the last two years. The vinegar in the wine has been Jas. I believe it would be better for him, given his opinionation, to return to the Ur Knowledge if he can still find it.
They should have formed the Bank Employees Union.
The financial industry is scrambling to survive the record losses resulting from laissez-faire irrational exuberance. In the process, the controls that are supposed to protect sensitive data and systems are being compromised - data is literally walking out the door:
I worked for them (First Magnus), and on August 16th 2007 they sent out an e-mail and 6,000 employees lost their jobs. There was no warning and none of the management knew before we did. We all left the same day within hours of receiving the e-mail.
We left our branch in Houston with thousands of loan documents piled from floor to ceiling - we were told a few months prior to retain every document - they took away the shredders and the secure shred bins that we would typically use, and we were drowning in confidential documents like duplicate credit reports, bank statements, duplicate loan applications - every bit of personal information imaginable. Not the normal way to disband a financial company.
Our computers were also left behind. 300 (First Magnus) offices across the country were similarly abandoned.
More about the Financial Costs of Data In-Security:
Another Hit to Shareholder Value : Information Security Resources
Well, I for one am happy the Republicans have turned down this automaker bailout bill.
This $15 billion would just be the first of many more requests. Their business model doesn't work in the current economic environment.
We shouldn't have saved the failing banks, we shouldn't save the failing borrowers and we shouldn't save the failing automakers.
mmckinl, they got 2 years of a depression where they are the minority party. They should be able to come back in 2010 and attack Obama on not being able to pull the country out of the depression. you think Obama is happy he won that election?
The GOP is dead for a generation, and good f'ing riddance.
~~~~
Ditto ... twice !
When the banks were wobbling, actually first started wobbling, Bush was on the TV multiple times asking for calm. How many news programs has he been in asking for help for the workers in the auto sector?
BK Toys
LOL!
Barley:
"When the banks were wobbling, actually first started wobbling, Bush was on the TV multiple times asking for calm. How many news programs has he been in asking for help for the workers in the auto sector?"
You can have runs on the bank, you can't have runs on the car dealership. There is a difference.
®, thats 277 more empty stores...
We shouldn't have saved the failing banks, we shouldn't save the failing borrowers and we shouldn't save the failing automakers.
Larry H.
~~~~
Spoken like a true believer ... Happy Unemployment to you and yours for the Holidays !
I hope the GOP is dead permanently and a new party is formed.
This $15 billion would just be the first of many more requests. Their business model doesn't work in the current economic environment.
So, Larry H. What business model works in the current economic environment?
Timidly: Is there a chance this could affect foreclosures in Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, and Wisconsin?
Here is a little tiddy:
"the House voted last night to approve an increased oversight role for the Government Accountability Office (GAO), requiring them to report on how much new lending financial institutions have made since implementation of the Troubled Asset Relief Program. That program was authorized as part of the $700 billion financial industry bailout bill, approved by Congress earlier this year. Lawmakers want to monitor whether banks and other institutions are using the relief funds to increase liquidity."
"I've been thinking about leaving my programming job.
Because of re-orginizations, oppertunities for advancement have been drying up. I have too much ambition to stay in what could be a stable but dead end job.
No worries. Like a cat, I'll land on my feet.
BondsOfSteel | 12.11.08 - 5:51 pm | # "
There is a WHOLE lot of talk about that at my place of employment, as after the voluntary comes the involuntary, and that is no fun for either those who get let go or those who have to do more work with less help.
Jerry writes:
We make the jokes about how it's all priced in or how this will now increase EPS, but to be honest I don't understand how the market can't be in a free fall. Who is buying in this market. How many "greater fools" are there?
No problem. Imagine you're in the circus working the high wire, with a net. The FR/TR net.
Did someone already comment that General Growth is going BK?
mmckinl, they got 2 years of a depression where they are the minority party. They should be able to come back in 2010 and attack Obama on not being able to pull the country out of the depression.
~~~~
Wrong, this will be hung around the Repubs necks.
FDR got how many terms ?
this site has a lot of potential, but as a forum, it is potentially dangerous to one's mental health
Jackk,
One of the things that bugs me about the trend in comments here is that the ratio of snarky remarks to open, honest discussion is going higher and higher by the day.
We all enjoy a good sarcastic Nemoism now and then. However, I think people are tending to put a snarky spin on just about everything they say, whether they're serious or not. That way, if their prediction turns out to be wrong, they can always say they were just being sarcastic. If it turns out to be right, they can claim they were serious. I think it's a fear of saying something "different" and a fear of being ridiculed.
Like all parasitic infestations the unproductive "funney-money" and Govt. sectors have killed the host that fed them.
The "funny-money & Govt" sectors need to be reduced by 60% to allow the productive sector to get on with the job at hand. Those who have fed on the body will just have to drop off, they have had it too good for too long.
regards
This only gets blamed on Republicans if the Democratic party can get its act together.
Do you really think Pelosi and Reid are up to the task?
Wow !
Look at those futures ...
DeMint(R-SC) warns of riots if Detroit bailout is passed.
Were going to have riots. There are already people rioting because theyre losing their jobs when somebody else is being bailed out. The fairness of it becomes more and more evident as we go along. Because the auto companies may be hurting there are very few companies that arent hurting and are gonna hurt. We dont have enough money to bail everyone out.
Republican fear mongering at its finest.
Valentino, maybe so.
A lot of the issue seems to be "what's next?" Some of the world finally seems to have capitulated to the fact that was a real estate bubble...but now what?
No Beachy, but that's why O chose Emmanuel; to go after Ds not Rs.
mmckinl writes:
Spoken like a true believer ... Happy Unemployment to you and yours for the Holidays !
Well, I have paid off my home and also have run my own accounting firm for the last 17 years.
I am not asking for a handout because I ran my business into the ground or borrowed against my house to buy SUV's, HDTV's, and other toys.
But yet now, I'm being asked to pay anyway.
Did someone already comment that General Growth is going BK?
No. But maybe now Thomas Friedman can stick his half baked opinions up his ass because him and his wife will be broke.
nevket240 writes:
Like all parasitic infestations the unproductive "funney-money" and Govt. sectors have killed the host that fed them.
The "funny-money & Govt" sectors need to be reduced by 60% to allow the productive sector to get on with the job at hand. Those who have fed on the body will just have to drop off, they have had it too good for too long.
regards
My hope is either that it gets much much worse or much much better. If it gets much much better, true value will be rewarded in our economy once again. If it gets much much worse, money will take on a role much like it had in the USSR; sort of a fake token in an economy where real value came from your connections, your local pull, and the black market.
"Do you really think Pelosi and Reid are up to the task?
Mr. Beach | 12.11.08 - 6:05 pm | # "
Do you really think it will be Pelosi and Reid?
After the TARP bailout was resisted predominantly by Republicans, the their credit, I gained newfound respect for them. But 15 billion is a paltry sum in comparision to save a significant industry.
Hey A-mouse,
Didja see the DX today? Impressions?
INO Equities Stocks Indexes - U.S $ INDEX (NYBOT:DX) Price Chart and Quote
Do you really think Pelosi and Reid are up to the task?
~~~~
Changes will fall in their lap. In 2 years the Dems will have their 60 in the Senate.
Autos go broke ... who pays for ads in the newspapers , on TV .... the media will roast the Repubs for a generation.
Look at those futures ...
mmckinl
Ah, the cleansing we are looking for!
After Hours: 24 Hour Stock Market and Forex Data from CNNMoney.com
Well, I have paid off my home and also have run my own accounting firm for the last 17 years.
~~~~
Expect a lot fewer clients ... and relatives that want to stay with you ...
People are going to voluntarily attrit in this economy? I don't think so.
I did. Startup was bought 18 months ago - part of my deal was a pretty decent severance - had to slog out 16 months in the inefficient pointless bullshit that is American Corporatism - first chance I had to "attrit" I jumped.
Didn't even have to think about it.
Anybody who thinks big business is anymore functional or efficient than a typical gov't bureaucracy is living in a state of denial.
Ok then: <a href="http://www.pbn.com/stories/36260.html>General Growth eyes bankruptcy as credit crunch squeezes cash flow
Barley, in light of recent market performance the futures are a barely an audible fart.
Sadly, I have no faith in our elected officials to even understand the problem, let alone do something proactive about it.
All I can hope is that in their attempts to do something, they don't make an already tough situation into something far graver. Sadly, I think the Fed is already taking us down that path. I cannot imagine the convulsions the market and economy would take if the Fed were to attempt to remove any of its alphabet facilities.
Our Dallas Merrill broker claimed he was safe from job cuts. Horrors!
Autos go broke ... who pays for ads in the newspapers , on TV .... the media will roast the Repubs for a generation.
Yep. and guess what cable network relies on auto advertising the most?
Mr. Beach writes:
Sadly, I have no faith in our elected officials to even understand the problem, let alone do something proactive about it.
Forget this illusion that they can do anything for you, or that they're there to help you at all. Do your best to ignore them, and hope that they ignore you. Wait until they fade into irrelevancy. Invest your efforts not in writing letters to someone who won't read them, this is no better than shouting into a bag. Instead, work on local connections, get invested in your neighbors, share tools, etc. One good thing to do is to set up a local neighborhood watch, and a phone tree.
ew thread !