The labor unions were great back in the sweat shop days, but over the past half century they have destroyed the US economy basically through blackmail -- give us more than what we deserve or we shut you down. Now they've blown up GM and probably Chrysler and Ford.
I guess the GOP isn't satisfied with losing the Presidency, loads of House members, and almost enough Senators to give the Dems a filibuster-proof margin. They're going to shoot for the moon in 2010 and see is they kill Lincoln's party completely.
RIP, US Auto Industry
Good Riddance: The Republican Party.
any thoughts on why there have been hardly any failures by national banks, with the exception of Wachovia. Surely, there's got to be an NA in Skokie or some place? It seems the only banks failing are state-chartered ones. Only thing I can think is that the OCC is kicking the can...
What all you naysayer's dont understand is that these "high wages" you are all talking about were won in contract negotiations. The union members might have given up other demands to receive these benefits.
If I were GM - I'd do it tonight - go to court. W/out gov't backstop & refereeing any BK will be hostile as hell... Zero chance of a prepack in this credit environment. Take it before the judge and let him sort it out. And do it FAST.
Some of those southern GOPer Senators would poo bricks if the Dems actually called their bluff. They might not have the HQs in their states but there are a ton of supplier plants down there. They'll take a helluva hit. Might end up with more job loss than Michigan & Ohio - in aggregate. My guess is they don't even know they are there - they'll know about them soon enough.
I don't understand why some people think this is bad for the GOP...isn't this a good thing that they just stopped the government from handing out a first payment to the auto industry of $15 billion?
Aren't they doing the right thing by opposing this?
Now for the dollar devaluation to crush Americans hoarding cash. Moving to final phase of the destruction of America. War expansion should just about do it. It's going down fast now and is about to capsize. Life rafts will be destroyed also. All of this due to simple ineptitude according to consensus and common sense. Incredible.
I admit to not understanding the exact disastrous consequences of LEH going under way back in ancient history last September; I will not underestimate this (GM $40 billion in debt; $1 trillion written against in CDS; some financial institutions will go under)
aClem(Unrated) writes: \tDancing in the aisles at Chambers of Commerce all over the nation. For now, at least. \t aClem | \t \t \t \t12.11.08 - 11:05 pm | #Their members selling parts into auto won't be dancing - neither will the dealers.
Alex T writes: I don't understand why some people think this is bad for the GOP...isn't this a good thing that they just stopped the government from handing out a first payment to the auto industry of $15 billion?
Aren't they doing the right thing by opposing this?
Depends on your perspective.
But it is a body blow to the US economy ON EVERY LEVEL.
"What all you naysayer's dont understand is that these "high wages" you are all talking about were won in contract negotiations. The union members might have given up other demands to receive these benefits."
What you don't understand is that it does not matter what was won, demanded or given up. It is unaffordable. Try to squeeze blood from a rock.
Conceptually, yes since nobody here is philosophically in favor of a bailout.
But since we've bent over big-time for the banks and let them rape the taxpayer, there's some angst at watching the Congress let companies that employ a lot of Americans die. You can blame the execs, but this is bread/butter employment we're talking here with huge hits across the country.
No way does Hank or Ben let the market open tomorrow without funding in place. Either that, or I'm going to be kicking myself for not buying SKF earlier this week...
Alex, concur, Jim I am a federal fiscal conservative... I think the republicans that are left are actually getting it.
they never had union support so nothing lost there, and quite frankly, some 60-70% ? of americans dont want to bail these guys out...most intelligent arguement seems to be prepack BK..
I wish they would have let at least one bank fail and see the what would happen ..the question that cashand carry was asked at his hearing...
what is the worst that would happen...
he had no answer, like he could not tell where the money is going..
this haqs turned into BS..
I want to know , roughly, how much each family household could have had so far if all this 4-7 btrillion spent so far had been given to us?
Americans are now to fat and unmuscled to throw a revolution. They'd have to sit down and take a breather walking from the bus to the pitchfork line. But they do make juicy targets for the miniguns.
Brian, gimme a break. Millions won't be 'out of work'. Millions are going to be working in the same plants, but they'll be getting a paycheck from Toyota or Honda, etc. post-bankruptcy.
This is a huge set up by the Democrats and a deadly mistake by the Republicans. Dumb ass politics. The GOP is going to just plain disappear. They deserve it after bailing out the banks. We will have political chaos.
I see, I guess that makes sense. But even if GM and Chrysler were to go under, wouldn't the other car companies have to hire a lot of those employees to ramp up production...since they would have to fill the void of cars available?
Do you really think they've got one last pump in them? I'm thinking we visit the 7s and end at 8200. Hardly a disaster but I cannot imagine Madoff hasn't spooked the masses.
Reid said no bailout will pass this year (he screamed like in <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Paa2jCqD1k0>this scene in Godfather II "It was an ABORTION!")
Shnaps writes:
Brian, gimme a break. Millions won't be 'out of work'. Millions are going to be working in the same plants, but they'll be getting a paycheck from Toyota or Honda, etc. post-bankruptcy.
Shnaps | Homepage | 12.11.08 - 11:18 pm | #
except toyota will shun these employees... no reason to infect your workers with unionitist
What if the bushie white house gave the money to the autos from the remaining 15B or so of 350B TARP funds? Just to send the markets into reverse tailsping tomorrow.
"They deserve it after bailing out the banks. "
Um, look at who actually voted for bailing out the banks. Republicans were the ones who were more against it than dems.
Alex T - have you taken a look at how many vehicles were produced in recent months that were not sold and are now hanging around at docks, etc, depreciating superfast? We need more auto production now almost as much as we need more homes built. Hehe.
"The labor unions were great back in the sweat shop days, but over the past half century they have destroyed the US economy basically through blackmail -- give us more than what we deserve or we shut you down."
One segment of society is to blame? Everyone else blameless? Too selfless perhaps?
Aren't they doing the right thing by opposing this? \t Alex T | \t \t \t \t12.11.08 - 11:12 pm
Yes and No - they are right to demand a better deal but were out maneuvered POLITICALLY again. GOP lovers bankers and hates workers - that is how it will read in the morning.
I'll be blunt - if I were GOPer leadership I'd let the dems have the vote (allow cloture) then vote no on the actual bill - that would put pressure on the dems to pass it if they love it so much & take the pressure off the GOP. I'm not sure the GOP leadership is smart enough for this game - it is getting really rough.
I'm just worried that this bk of gm and c will be a major tipping point to get the real ugly stuff rolling. LEHs bk and subsequent cds unwind was nasty... but $1 trillion? That may shake the tree more than any of us really want it to be shaken.
the phrase of the waning days of 2008 may well be 'unintended consequences'.
$50 billion lost in ponzi headge fund scheme, 2+ trillion lost in housing scheme, and we cannot take +15 billion and use it to make cars or provide continued support to the workers for those companies?
Wild west free market capitalism supported at the cost of trillions. Payment of money to enterprises that have made agreements with workers is somehow wrong?
Massive unemployment and less wages for many. There are a lot more retired autoworkers looking for greeting jobs at the local big box retailer now.
Conceptually, yes since nobody here is philosophically in favor of a bailout.
But since we've bent over big-time for the banks and let them rape the taxpayer, there's some angst at watching the Congress let companies that employ a lot of Americans die. You can blame the execs, but this is bread/butter employment we're talking here with huge hits across the country.
Wasn't it the GOP administration that let Lehman fail and put 30,000 out of work? They let a bank fail and everyone got mad. Now they want to let auto companies fail and everyone is getting mad again.
People making too much out of this. Let the markets open lower and then buy like crazy. Once people realize the sky isn't falling if an automaker declares BK, the markets will rally. Calm down. A bankrupt business going official about it isn't all that worth getting too worked up about.
Stupid GOP had it set to blow up on Obama and the Democrats just like the last bailout they were in such a hurry to pass. What the hell is wrong with these clowns. Rise a little hell, get some half ass concessions, and a load of pork favors and let'er blow next year. But NO.
Real Vapid Bimbos of OC(Unrated) writes: \tWelcome to the new America.
You won't like it.
You'll have to actually work... \t Real Vapid Bimbos of OC | \t \t \t \t12.11.08 - 11:17 pm | And hard - for a lot less money (measured in PPP). But that was coming w/ or w/out the bailout.
CNN is reporting that the White House will come up with the $15B; they don't want GM to die during the last days of their watch. I suspect they'll announce something before the market opens in the morning. Meanwhile, Japan & Hong Kong are toast tonight.
"0 for american blue collar workers.
Ticker Tape of Doom"
I know. Too bad that they won't pick up their burning cigarette they dropped, because that is not part of their job description. Being in the UAW is like admitting you are lazy and overpaid. Or just overpaid and part of a group that is lazy.
This is just the very beginning of big business bankruptcies to come. This will be a Deeeeepression.
Bail out. Don't count on a bailout. Just walk this way. Or run to the exits and yell FIRE.
I blame the GOP for TARP because it was Paulson etc. and they did get enough Republican votes to pass it. They could have stopped it and were afraid to take the chance. Now they stick it to the workers. The headlines will not be kind.
im with c&c. every time I think rationally about what SHOULD happen, one of them administration folks comes into the room and pulls the rug out from under me. Im counting on it happening again tomorrow.
I know. Too bad that they won't pick up their burning cigarette they dropped, because that is not part of their job description. Being in the UAW is like admitting you are lazy and overpaid. Or just overpaid and part of a group that is lazy.
Elvis writes:
"0 for american blue collar workers.
Ticker Tape of Doom"
I know. Too bad that they won't pick up their burning cigarette they dropped, because that is not part of their job description. Being in the UAW is like admitting you are lazy and overpaid. Or just overpaid and part of a group that is lazy.
Elvis | 12.11.08 - 11:27 pm | #
Relax. Those worthless, lying, thieving criminal pieces of shit bastards some refer to as Senators are crafty. They have wiped their hands off this responsibility, Big 3 fail or not. It's in Bush's lap now. He either gives them a bridge loan via TARP or he rolls the dice they don't go under before Jan. 21st. This all about Bush now.
any thoughts on why there have been hardly any failures by national banks, with the exception of Wachovia. Surely, there's got to be an NA in Skokie or some place? It seems the only banks failing are state-chartered ones. Only thing I can think is that the OCC is kicking the can...
Basel Too | 12.11.08 - 11:10 pm | #
Understaffed, overwhelmed and legal issues related to bank peer size plus wanting to move it into 2009 after DC celebrates whatever. Got to party like it's 2005 you know. Those travel vouchers, OT and per diem are still good for immediate deposit.
I know, only $50m but if some Apple trades hang up or don't settle or get lost the confidence gets broken and the retail investors move to the sidelines and wait. There's also the theory of the single cockroach at work here.
The banks have caved to one act of heroism. One. They ignore congress and threaten the country. They steal at will and harness us with the debt. One group stood up and won. A small battle but meaningful in many aspects.
I believe the Hispanic workers at Republic Window and Door using peaceful pressure and the knowledge they were seeking justice will represent a template going forward. Seize assets and represent yourself as the wronged party. Count on local support and be steadfast in the face of violence but do not react with violence.
All local law enforcement belongs to a union. Law enforcement is also VERY blue collar and have a rugged sense of right and wrong. Law enforcement will do their job and will react if if you threaten their authority. They also will react out of a larger sense of duty to country and community if they see labor's side of the dispute.
Should this come down to protest remember these words. Make a difference because we might only get one shot at righting the ship of liberty. Stand up for your rights and the rights of your fellow citizens. There are enough good uncorrupted people in this country. Stand with them.
I have a question, GMAC is now a bank holding company. Why can't TARP money be given to GMAC with the understanding they will lend to GM, Ford, and Chrysler.
hanging, this is the senates GOPers way of throwing the finger at Bush... one last time for following him and his experts (paulsen)... instead of forcing the dems vote they put it squarly on Bush's lap, trust me they didnt give cheney the time of day yesterday...not any respect what so ever..trust me
"I have a question, GMAC is now a bank holding company. Why can't TARP money be given to GMAC with the understanding they will lend to GM, Ford, and Chrysler."
GMAC applied to become a bank holding company. They need to restructure their bonds to successfully convert. Most bond-holders are refusing to convert.
The Big Three fail will hold. They won't dare pull another TARP-like, two day later re-vote. They have lost 95% of their legitimacy already. An overnight fast-fix smacks of desperation, disdain for the rule of law, and mutinous panic for the markets. Must maintain shred of dignity! Might actually induce greater panic and exit making.
Hindsight = 20/20. The UAW cleverly rejected concessions because they know Bush will step up to the plate for the sake of his own legacy. Politics, bedfellows...
sales are down for all auto companies. But sales and profitability are two different things. GM has neither. Giving them a wheelbarrow of cash solves none of thier problems.
JS(Unrated) writes: \tMaybe Pelosi will have to get on her hands and knees and beg Paulson now. Funny how what goes around comes around. \t JS | \t \t \t \t12.11.08 - 11:24 pm | # I bet she is okay with this - give them (Dems) something to whip GOP w/ over the next two years. More 'their fault' - Dems gonna need a lot of that or 2010 is real bad. Plus how many auto plants in her district? GOP needed a fig leaf more than Dems & they didn't get it. I'm really surprised they didn't get the bridge loan into January & then let them fail on O's watch.
Dryfly has this figured out. The GOP should have given them just enough money to get past the inaugeration and let Barak figure it out. No strategic thinking.
If GM goes under, does that mean they can finally stop paying healthcare and pensions to anyone related to any past employee of the company for the last 50 years?
Or are union contracts like student loans, and you can't even shake them in bankruptcy?
Bush admin. changed their tune earlier today. Commerce Sec,. Perino the Ice Queen both talked about the importance of this loan, not allowing GM to fail and take 1 million jobs with them. Said economy couldn't take the shock. That admin. is now very nervous. Tomorrow will be interesting.
Lover of Ham writes:
wow.. political suicide for the democrats given the union support.. its going to be interesting given the 2 or 3 TRILLION they gave Wall Street...
ya sure ya betcha them union-ers be all comin to the republican party dontcha NO
I remember 6 years ago, listening to a presentation from a GM executive... when asked why GM doesn't make small efficient cars his response was that "We don't have to, GM leads the auto industry, we dictate what gets made and everyone follows"...your telling me that this line of thinking did not have anything to do with GM's downfall????
kevin, depends on ch 7 or 11. A ch7 liquidation and then all the stuff gets thrown to the mercy of the Pension Benefit (semi)Guarantee Corp. In it's current crisis, which is quickly getting worse, it will get a major restructure. Some money will be paid, by you and me through taxes, but that's about it. In a ch 11, they can have it restructured in a bankruptcy court, and see if any kind of viable company is left. Things are so f-ed up at the current sales rate that there is no way the current system would make it through intact.
Everyone - please correct me if Ive screwed this up. Im exhausted..
Couldn't GM raise some last minute cash by offering all of these new cars sitting on lots for half price?
It would mean selling them at a loss, but that seems to be the norm for them lately anyway.
Terry
That will never happen in Amerika. It would be like telling someone to sell their house for a reasonable price of say $200,000, when the seller still believes it's worth $300,000.
What kind of fucking idiots BLAME the unions for this? What the fuck you stupid economists actually do? Are you really worth your salary?
First you wall street fuckers collect billions in some friggin "just imagine our winnings are X" level 3 bonuses and now you blame some welder or assembly line worker for this mess? Well, FUCK AND YOU!
"Anonymous writes:
What kind of fucking idiots BLAME the unions for this? What the fuck you stupid economists actually do? Are you really worth your salary?"
What kind of fucking idiots BLAME the unions for this? What the fuck you stupid economists actually do? Are you really worth your salary?
First you wall street fuckers collect billions in some friggin "just imagine our winnings are X" level 3 bonuses and now you blame some welder or assembly line worker for this mess? Well, FUCK AND YOU!
That's the spirit!
Anonymous writes:
What kind of fucking idiots BLAME the unions for this? What the fuck you stupid economists actually do? Are you really worth your salary?
First you wall street fuckers collect billions in some friggin "just imagine our winnings are X" level 3 bonuses and now you blame some welder or assembly line worker for this mess? Well, FUCK AND YOU!
Anonymous | 12.11.08 - 11:41 pm | #
Anonymous writes:
What kind of fucking idiots BLAME the unions for this? What the fuck you stupid economists actually do? Are you really worth your salary?
First you wall street fuckers collect billions in some friggin "just imagine our winnings are X" level 3 bonuses and now you blame some welder or assembly line worker for this mess? Well, FUCK AND YOU!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just remember, you are talking about $75/hour welders and line workers.
Some wall street fuckers might not have made that in bad commission years.
serf - you naughty, but thanks for the Bjork reminder.
C&C - the riots start in the midwest when a utility company, probably power goes tango uniform and shuts off service, justifiably or not. I would be looking real dang close at corporate performance and risk. Hints: debt, bonds, managerial conflict political interest, leaks, operational problems.
Why is bankruptcy and option for 3 auto manufacturers that employ millions, but not an option for AIG, which employs thousands? AIG just asked for another $10 billion. I suppose that the $78k that I owe them on my defaulted second mortgage isn't helping. Apparently, they owned the CDO on it. Too bad they will never get a dime due to the purchase money mortgage rule in CA.
My bet is the BB at the Fed pulls some weird arse scheme out that equates to a bail of GM. That dude will buy anything and GMs gotta have something that will put a glimmer in his eye.
What kind of fucking idiots BLAME the unions for this? What the fuck you stupid economists actually do? Are you really worth your salary?
The kind that I will enjoy seeing lose their, jobs, houses and families when this massacre reaches them as they have enjoyed seeing the same fate happen to others. I hope to see them in hell
Take a minute to read c-n-c's link on suppliers DO SO! It tells about HALF of the hell about to break loose. The other half will be the CDS - I can't speak for that.
I remember 6 years ago, listening to a presentation from a GM executive... when asked why GM doesn't make small efficient cars his response was that "We don't have to, GM leads the auto industry, we dictate what gets made and everyone follows"...your telling me that this line of thinking did not have anything to do with GM's downfall????
steve jobs likes to say that apple doesn't ask consumers want they want, apple tells consumers what they will want.
"Corker brought in the UAW to discuss a proposal that would reduce the wages and benefits of the Big Three automakers to bring them in line with those paid by Japanese carmakers Nissan, Toyota and Honda..."
what is the wage and benefit reduction the uaw was asked to take...dollars per hour and benefits reduced??
anonymous, put down the bagged 40 and understand, no one blames the union worker...f' we would all trake 3-4 times what we were worth in a heartbeat tomorrow...
as Elvis states.. its the f'd up union suits that negotiate your jobs into oblivion..
you do know the story behind stanley the company that makes tape measurers dont you?
DK3DK writes:
Why is bankruptcy and option for 3 auto manufacturers that employ millions, but not an option for AIG, which employs thousands? AIG just asked for another $10 billion....
Because AIG is the whole industry when it comes to the CDS market. If they go under, no one takes up the slack.
Unfortunately for the big three, once they go under, the Japanese big three will take up the slack.
"Couldn't figure why the outgoing GOP'ers didn't just vote yea tonight..."
anyone catch Toe-Tappin' Sen. Craig's outgoing speech on C-span last month? surreal. for some reason he felt compelled to one final shill session for the energy biz.
Mark writes:
"The labor unions were great back in the sweat shop days, but over the past half century they have destroyed the US economy basically through blackmail -- give us more than what we deserve or we shut you down. Now they've blown up GM and probably Chrysler and Ford."
Mark | 12.11.08 - 11:08 pm | #
Yes. The autoworkers engaged in (illegal) work stoppages in the 1930s in the midst of the Depression because they weren't making enough (according to them).
C&C - the riots start in the midwest when a utility company, probably power goes tango uniform and shuts off service, justifiably or not. I would be looking real dang close at corporate performance and risk. Hints: debt, bonds, managerial conflict political interest, leaks, operational problems.
Gonna be a hard winter.
C
Counterpointer | 12.11.08 - 11:44 pm | #
are we back in the first riot prediction pool? i think mine was 8/09.
"$50 an hour will soon mean about $5 purchase power."
at least commodities are weak overnight. there's another chance to buy against that concept if you really believe it (aside from the tax burden implied, which nothing can be done about).
I'm really surprised they didn't get the bridge loan into January & then let them fail on O's watch.
Wow.
dryfly | 12.11.08 - 11:35 pm | #
The GOP leadership should stop listening to Rush, according to Colin Powell. It does seem what 'leadership' they have is very short sighted and prone to serious mistakes. They just nudged the unemployment rate to double digits. Layoffs were coming anyway, but people will point to this specific incident which tipped the boat upside down.
I am shocked and appalled by many of the comments here that are so quick to criticize the autoworkers and grossly misplace the blame that is due. Many of you appear to think you are somehow immune from what it going on in the economy at large. Guess what geniuses? If the U.S. auto industry goes down, the hard times will get much harder and you WILL be affected. You can bank on it.
So many of the comments here make me ashamed to be an American. Is that clear?
FDIC braces for tough banking climate in 2009 - Dec. 11, 2008
'Wanted: Bank failure specialist'
The FDIC is looking to hire about 125 new workers in order to cope with more bank turmoil in 2009. Starting salary? $156,000 per year.
Such positions typically last for two years or more, and come with a salary of as much as $156,000, according to postings on the FDIC Web site. A "resolution and closings manager" is eligible for of annual salary of nearly $178,000.
(I reached $80k after 19 years. Times have definitely changed.)
Persecuted Comrade Anonymouse writes:
I admit to not understanding the exact disastrous consequences of LEH going under way back in ancient history last September; I will not underestimate this (GM $40 billion in debt; $1 trillion written against in CDS; some financial institutions will go under)
Persecuted Comrade Anonymouse | Homepage | 12.11.08 - 11:15 pm | #
--
I think the key here is that we have not even experienced the full blow from LEH going down yet.
Some aspects of this unwind move quicker then others. And that is not convenient.
Joe writes:
If you are getting almost $34 bucks an hour to do manual labor, there had better be a happy ending involved. Just sayin.
Joe | 12.11.08 - 11:48 pm | #
hehe cute, But how many of you can honestly say that they are certified to weld(6010, 7018), can machine anything within 1,000 tolerance, NFPA pneumatic and hydraulic specialist and technician, fluent with AB and toyopuc PLC's ....I suppose if can't find a job like I got now I could go back to my old job...radiological technician and mechanical operator for nuclear power plants....
"No, I blame the union that gives the welder $50 an hour plus benefits to do a $15 an hour job."
I blame the people who shuffle bits of paper around without producing anything of value other than other bits of paper, for much more than $50 an hour...
Comrade Lurker writes:
"No, I blame the union that gives the welder $50 an hour plus benefits to do a $15 an hour job."
I blame the people who shuffle bits of paper around without producing anything of value other than other bits of paper, for much more than $50 an hour...
Comrade Lurker | 12.11.08 - 11:54 pm | #
Well - euro is finally finding its footing again. Greece collapsing was a downer... but now Michigan and California are going down in a stunning double act.
question? Why is it most on here say we should have let all the banks, ins companies be set free and allowed to die, that TARP and bail out just extends the national crisis making it worse, but yet when it comes to IMBY my company, we say oh we cant fail...
we cant baiolout everything, mayors, newspapers, etc....
think, people, many of us have been here for years and have been well aware of this coming down the pike and profitably prepped for it. it still totally sucks and even though we tried to prevent it, we failed. we know that it will have an effect on us and those that did not heed and it SUCKS.
i don't know any of the old guard or the majority of the new rockstars who blame the workers. contribute or go away.
Bush will give them the money
Time to take out the ugly stik and go fishin.
Chaos and Opportunity.
...but mostly Chaos.
wow.. political suicide for the democrats given the union support.. its going to be interesting given the 2 or 3 TRILLION they gave Wall Street...
Best of the born and bred!
What is the lung industry collapsed? That would be breathtaking.
Ugh. Time to start packing the car up. Heading way south for the winter. As an FYI - never try to take weapons into Mexico.
Well, this should make for an interesting trading day tomorrow, huh?
Hang Seng down 6.5%
Dancing in the aisles at Chambers of Commerce all over the nation. For now, at least.
Do the UAW members even read the headlines of the newspapers while they are sitting and doing nothing at the "jobs bank"?
The company that pays them these overly generous wages has almost NO money left. To say they will accept a pay cut in TWO YEARS is insanity.
If they all lose their jobs, they'll get what they deserve.
re: what nude said.
Everyone's thoughts on the complications/impediments/moral hazards of Bush coming to the rescue w/TARP?
Thanks.
Union support is like support from the 90+ yr old voters. It doesn't last much longer.
47 yes!
32 no!
crispy...cspan link pls ?
Futures crashing
down 330
cspan.org
Game. Fucking. Over.
{repost from last thread}
The vote is going to fail?
They had plenty of time to pork it up...
Seems so weird that the GOP is going to block this, yet went along with the Banksters getting the pie.
I understand their reasoning, but this is like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Anyway, vote fails, conjure's clock ticks forward
...........all asian markets are down 5-7%.............
"crispy&cole writes:
Futures crashing"
Are you sure that isn't Christmas Party drivers?
The labor unions were great back in the sweat shop days, but over the past half century they have destroyed the US economy basically through blackmail -- give us more than what we deserve or we shut you down. Now they've blown up GM and probably Chrysler and Ford.
I hope somebody is taking notes...
But Ford wasnt asking for $money. I think they thought they could be the big winner if the others lost. Me not so sure now.
Holy Mother of Glod.
Strap in everybody. This sucker is going down.
wow, i knew the republicans were whackjobs, but they're going to put millions more out of work to break a union?
Hang Seng getting beat like a red-headed stepson. Up, down, up, down. Prime pump, draw down water. Repeat. Gettin' boring.
53 yes
36 no
appropriate?
YouTube - ROY ORBISON- falling
"baby" is the bottom?
Crap...I'm screwed
Blame the unions? How about blaming a 25 million dollar a year CEO of a company that is losing money? Hmmmm?
I guess the GOP isn't satisfied with losing the Presidency, loads of House members, and almost enough Senators to give the Dems a filibuster-proof margin. They're going to shoot for the moon in 2010 and see is they kill Lincoln's party completely.
RIP, US Auto Industry
Good Riddance: The Republican Party.
FFDIC:
any thoughts on why there have been hardly any failures by national banks, with the exception of Wachovia. Surely, there's got to be an NA in Skokie or some place? It seems the only banks failing are state-chartered ones. Only thing I can think is that the OCC is kicking the can...
What all you naysayer's dont understand is that these "high wages" you are all talking about were won in contract negotiations. The union members might have given up other demands to receive these benefits.
ow's a great time to buy or sell a bailout!
Simply un-effin'-believable.
I've held off on Proshares DXD (ultrashort the DJIA) since the wall's hanging in around 8K.
I'm wondering whether to bite that right now...
We're killing off the manufacturers and saving the effin' bankers.
Shoot me now. Just shoot me.
Call the UAW's bluff. Put the automakers in bankruptcy and rehire at new wages and benefits.
dollar/yen 90.48...The Great Unwinding continues
Reality.
Gotta show the auto deal is necessary. Damit. Crush the dollar and futures and show the folks what no deal means.
From prior thread:
Dow futures are mad-off the closing numbers.
Rob Dawg
Posturing beyond belief. Not you Dawg. Its friends of the bailout.
My gut says to buy like heck at the open.
yen 90.47
If I were GM - I'd do it tonight - go to court. W/out gov't backstop & refereeing any BK will be hostile as hell... Zero chance of a prepack in this credit environment. Take it before the judge and let him sort it out. And do it FAST.
Some of those southern GOPer Senators would poo bricks if the Dems actually called their bluff. They might not have the HQs in their states but there are a ton of supplier plants down there. They'll take a helluva hit. Might end up with more job loss than Michigan & Ohio - in aggregate. My guess is they don't even know they are there - they'll know about them soon enough.
actually... for all the folks in gangstaria
YouTube - ROY ORBISON- running scared
Oh yeah, and take back the money distributed to the banks.
yen 90.47
Anonymous
Go baby go~
USD-YEN now down to 90.55. Wow! That is just a historic 24 hour move.
I don't understand why some people think this is bad for the GOP...isn't this a good thing that they just stopped the government from handing out a first payment to the auto industry of $15 billion?
Aren't they doing the right thing by opposing this?
if yen breaks 90...i think we hedgefunds in asia will throw stocks to kitchen sink for sure.
Read your mind Barley, posted late.
SPX futes at 833. damn where is my xmas rally?
"aClem writes:
Blame the unions?"
I don't blame anubody except myself....and the unions.
I've held off on Proshares DXD
Sell at the open. Clean house!
52 to 35...FAIL!
Totally OT but kinda on from earlier...
greatfallstribune.com | Great Falls | Great Falls Tribune
1.5% of all North American flatbed railcars in the US are parked in Montana courtesy of BNSF and not enough freight.
Now for the dollar devaluation to crush Americans hoarding cash. Moving to final phase of the destruction of America. War expansion should just about do it. It's going down fast now and is about to capsize. Life rafts will be destroyed also. All of this due to simple ineptitude according to consensus and common sense. Incredible.
Watchout for Ben's free pony give aways in the AM.
In the past 3 months I've heard 2 of my econ professors tell of impending revolution...perhaps they might be right?/
I admit to not understanding the exact disastrous consequences of LEH going under way back in ancient history last September; I will not underestimate this (GM $40 billion in debt; $1 trillion written against in CDS; some financial institutions will go under)
aClem(Unrated) writes:
\tDancing in the aisles at Chambers of Commerce all over the nation. For now, at least.
\t aClem | \t \t \t \t12.11.08 - 11:05 pm | #Their members selling parts into auto won't be dancing - neither will the dealers.
Alex T writes:
I don't understand why some people think this is bad for the GOP...isn't this a good thing that they just stopped the government from handing out a first payment to the auto industry of $15 billion?
Aren't they doing the right thing by opposing this?
Depends on your perspective.
But it is a body blow to the US economy ON EVERY LEVEL.
"What all you naysayer's dont understand is that these "high wages" you are all talking about were won in contract negotiations. The union members might have given up other demands to receive these benefits."
What you don't understand is that it does not matter what was won, demanded or given up. It is unaffordable. Try to squeeze blood from a rock.
Alex T:
Conceptually, yes since nobody here is philosophically in favor of a bailout.
But since we've bent over big-time for the banks and let them rape the taxpayer, there's some angst at watching the Congress let companies that employ a lot of Americans die. You can blame the execs, but this is bread/butter employment we're talking here with huge hits across the country.
I'm going to buy a shuttered car plant to grow illegal drugs and hide bank executives on the run. I see lots of profits.
I'm wodering why the sentiment of the blog was no for the TARP, but seems to be yes on this bailout.
long bond overnight futures are sub 3% ytm levels. I'm fubarred.
Sounds like Ried is hoping these guys reconsider tommorow morning...
Paulson will use Tarp to bailout GM... Just watch.
All US savers in cash time to rush for the exits.
unions? please they are wage earners... the last ones to benefit from the inflation price spiral...
I must say this is awesome...kinda like a wet dream night.
Cant believe the moves.
No way does Hank or Ben let the market open tomorrow without funding in place.
Either that, or I'm going to be kicking myself for not buying SKF earlier this week...
Confirmed... 52 to 35 ..FAIL!
I think Hankie will panky.
Alex, concur, Jim I am a federal fiscal conservative... I think the republicans that are left are actually getting it.
they never had union support so nothing lost there, and quite frankly, some 60-70% ? of americans dont want to bail these guys out...most intelligent arguement seems to be prepack BK..
I wish they would have let at least one bank fail and see the what would happen ..the question that cashand carry was asked at his hearing...
what is the worst that would happen...
he had no answer, like he could not tell where the money is going..
this haqs turned into BS..
I want to know , roughly, how much each family household could have had so far if all this 4-7 btrillion spent so far had been given to us?
Welcome to the new America.
You won't like it.
You'll have to actually work...
Americans are now to fat and unmuscled to throw a revolution. They'd have to sit down and take a breather walking from the bus to the pitchfork line. But they do make juicy targets for the miniguns.
Welcome to the new America.
You won't like it.
You'll have to actually work...
You mean... AMERICAN WET DREAM IS OVER ?
Brian, gimme a break. Millions won't be 'out of work'. Millions are going to be working in the same plants, but they'll be getting a paycheck from Toyota or Honda, etc. post-bankruptcy.
a scumepeterian destruction is just what the doctor ordered. This is great news.
onwards to massive shrinkage in financial/auto & building sector.
Get efficient and be viable.
It's America's turn to be toast to the Credit Crashing and firesale liquidation.
This is a huge set up by the Democrats and a deadly mistake by the Republicans. Dumb ass politics. The GOP is going to just plain disappear. They deserve it after bailing out the banks. We will have political chaos.
Elvis, I had no idea you were and auto industry exec. Hope you saved some of your multi millions.
Hard to imagine someone in the govi not providing a bailout before EY. After all, AIG is at $165 and counting...
I see, I guess that makes sense. But even if GM and Chrysler were to go under, wouldn't the other car companies have to hire a lot of those employees to ramp up production...since they would have to fill the void of cars available?
Barley:
Do you live for extreme sports?
Yowza.
Barley:
Do you live for extreme sports?
Yowza.
homedad43 | Homepage | 12.11.08 - 11:16 pm
Agreed
"Barley writes:
I must say this is awesome...kinda like a wet dream night."
Sorry. My wet dreams are real and they are much better because they involve a hot, horny female. And they are not dreams.
but they'll be getting a paycheck from Toyota or Honda, etc. post-bankruptcy.
Right. Like the world economy tanking does not effect Honda and Toyota.
Nikkei 225\t8,282.18\t-438.37\t-5.03%
Cant....keep.....up......ugh.
Too many threads....comments keep coming...madness.... Im....sinking...errrrrrggghhhh...
Is Bush playing a fiddle somewhere?
Schnaps,
Toyota sales are down more than Ford.
My gut says to buy like heck at the open.
Barley
Do you really think they've got one last pump in them? I'm thinking we visit the 7s and end at 8200. Hardly a disaster but I cannot imagine Madoff hasn't spooked the masses.
honda down 10%
Toyota down 8%
Reid said no bailout will pass this year (he screamed like in <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Paa2jCqD1k0>this scene in Godfather II "It was an ABORTION!")
Nikkei -531
Do you live for extreme sports?
No.
But I love to be right 1% of the time. Now is one of those times.
Seems so weird that the GOP is going to block this, yet went along with the Banksters getting the pie.
Huh? In the final TARP House vote, the majority of GOP voted against, the (vast) majority of Dems voted for.
Shnaps writes:
Brian, gimme a break. Millions won't be 'out of work'. Millions are going to be working in the same plants, but they'll be getting a paycheck from Toyota or Honda, etc. post-bankruptcy.
Shnaps | Homepage | 12.11.08 - 11:18 pm | #
except toyota will shun these employees... no reason to infect your workers with unionitist
Elvis, fat bottomed hippos don't count. Oops, did I let out that your a zookeeper?
What if the bushie white house gave the money to the autos from the remaining 15B or so of 350B TARP funds? Just to send the markets into reverse tailsping tomorrow.
"They deserve it after bailing out the banks. "
Um, look at who actually voted for bailing out the banks. Republicans were the ones who were more against it than dems.
Alex T - have you taken a look at how many vehicles were produced in recent months that were not sold and are now hanging around at docks, etc, depreciating superfast? We need more auto production now almost as much as we need more homes built. Hehe.
Elvis needs to get laid.
wow
INO Futures and Commodities - Indexes - S&P 500 INDEX (E-MINI) Dec 2009 (E) (CME:ES.Z09.E) Price Chart and Quote
wonder if we'll hit the e-brake on the nyse tomorrow
Not to be cold:
"Madoff hasn't spooked the masses.
Rob Dawg"
A footnote. Who cares.
What if the bushie white house gave the money to the autos from the remaining 15B or so of 350B TARP funds?
Can't do it. TARP was only for financial institutions.
Barbara Boxer is now chewing out Republicans and she is now begging Paulson to bail them out....
Did Boxer just say that Hank Paulson saved jobs on Wall St? Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of ex-bankers.
"The labor unions were great back in the sweat shop days, but over the past half century they have destroyed the US economy basically through blackmail -- give us more than what we deserve or we shut you down."
One segment of society is to blame? Everyone else blameless? Too selfless perhaps?
"Ben Frank'll Tank Bernanke writes:
Elvis, fat bottomed hippos don't count"
Fat girls are fun. I just prefer hot girls.
hanging by...
you realize that the reason the GOP lost seats was the fact that they bailed out banks?
They got the message, i wish they would ask for remaining tarp funds until transparency and Bloomberg and Fox FOIA requests are granted
Aren't they doing the right thing by opposing this?
\t Alex T | \t \t \t \t12.11.08 - 11:12 pm
Yes and No - they are right to demand a better deal but were out maneuvered POLITICALLY again. GOP lovers bankers and hates workers - that is how it will read in the morning.
I'll be blunt - if I were GOPer leadership I'd let the dems have the vote (allow cloture) then vote no on the actual bill - that would put pressure on the dems to pass it if they love it so much & take the pressure off the GOP. I'm not sure the GOP leadership is smart enough for this game - it is getting really rough.
"Do you live for extreme sports?"
Well I'm married, so I guess I do (:
Billions in bonuses to banking execs.
0 for american blue collar workers.
I'm just worried that this bk of gm and c will be a major tipping point to get the real ugly stuff rolling. LEHs bk and subsequent cds unwind was nasty... but $1 trillion? That may shake the tree more than any of us really want it to be shaken.
the phrase of the waning days of 2008 may well be 'unintended consequences'.
Is GMs bk the smoot hawley of 2008?
$50 billion lost in ponzi headge fund scheme, 2+ trillion lost in housing scheme, and we cannot take +15 billion and use it to make cars or provide continued support to the workers for those companies?
Wild west free market capitalism supported at the cost of trillions. Payment of money to enterprises that have made agreements with workers is somehow wrong?
Massive unemployment and less wages for many. There are a lot more retired autoworkers looking for greeting jobs at the local big box retailer now.
CONJURE'S GLOBAL DEPRESSION CLOCK
The time is now--
11:59:48
B2 says:
Can't do it. TARP was only for financial institutions.
But the WH gang and Paulson could still do it? To prevent a major down just before old Jeebus's b'day
Okay...
I think that the Santa rally is officially over.
Now for plan B.
Glad that I sold F when I did...
Maybe Pelosi will have to get on her hands and knees and beg Paulson now. Funny how what goes around comes around.
homedad43 writes:
Conceptually, yes since nobody here is philosophically in favor of a bailout.
But since we've bent over big-time for the banks and let them rape the taxpayer, there's some angst at watching the Congress let companies that employ a lot of Americans die. You can blame the execs, but this is bread/butter employment we're talking here with huge hits across the country.
Wasn't it the GOP administration that let Lehman fail and put 30,000 out of work? They let a bank fail and everyone got mad. Now they want to let auto companies fail and everyone is getting mad again.
People making too much out of this. Let the markets open lower and then buy like crazy. Once people realize the sky isn't falling if an automaker declares BK, the markets will rally. Calm down. A bankrupt business going official about it isn't all that worth getting too worked up about.
Stupid GOP had it set to blow up on Obama and the Democrats just like the last bailout they were in such a hurry to pass. What the hell is wrong with these clowns. Rise a little hell, get some half ass concessions, and a load of pork favors and let'er blow next year. But NO.
CRVIX is dilating.
Citigroup has a 20 Billion dollar bonus pool for 2008.. Read it in bloomberg a few weeks back
mp, my IBS erupts every time you post the clock. Yer hurtin me man.
Compliments of CNBC thread music:
YouTube - Young Jeezy - Crazy World
Young Jeezy - Crazy World
Everybody freaked about Lehmen too.
In the end, the market moved on.
Real Vapid Bimbos of OC(Unrated) writes:
\tWelcome to the new America.
You won't like it.
You'll have to actually work...
\t Real Vapid Bimbos of OC | \t \t \t \t12.11.08 - 11:17 pm |
And hard - for a lot less money (measured in PPP). But that was coming w/ or w/out the bailout.
CNN is reporting that the White House will come up with the $15B; they don't want GM to die during the last days of their watch. I suspect they'll announce something before the market opens in the morning. Meanwhile, Japan & Hong Kong are toast tonight.
dryfly... great blunt point... tip tip
"0 for american blue collar workers.
Ticker Tape of Doom"
I know. Too bad that they won't pick up their burning cigarette they dropped, because that is not part of their job description. Being in the UAW is like admitting you are lazy and overpaid. Or just overpaid and part of a group that is lazy.
This is just the very beginning of big business bankruptcies to come. This will be a Deeeeepression.
Bail out. Don't count on a bailout. Just walk this way. Or run to the exits and yell FIRE.
I agree...I think the Fed/Treasury will give them the money 5 minutes before the markets open...BOOK IT!
I blame the GOP for TARP because it was Paulson etc. and they did get enough Republican votes to pass it. They could have stopped it and were afraid to take the chance. Now they stick it to the workers. The headlines will not be kind.
Barney:
My recollection of that distant time was that many were scared of the ramifications of LEH going under, especially in lieu of BS earlier in the year.
Note to the thread: Am I right in this? So much has happened that I'm mentally corkscrewing into the ground.
"I agree...I think the Fed/Treasury will give them the money 5 minutes before the markets open...BOOK IT!"
Thank God for pre-market to sell my SRS.
im with c&c. every time I think rationally about what SHOULD happen, one of them administration folks comes into the room and pulls the rug out from under me. Im counting on it happening again tomorrow.
I know. Too bad that they won't pick up their burning cigarette they dropped, because that is not part of their job description. Being in the UAW is like admitting you are lazy and overpaid. Or just overpaid and part of a group that is lazy.
You think this is just about the UAW?
Elvis writes:
"0 for american blue collar workers.
Ticker Tape of Doom"
I know. Too bad that they won't pick up their burning cigarette they dropped, because that is not part of their job description. Being in the UAW is like admitting you are lazy and overpaid. Or just overpaid and part of a group that is lazy.
Elvis | 12.11.08 - 11:27 pm | #
Are you in a union? if not then don't stereotype
gotta go...booked some serious coin.
I'll be open to buy at open unless this Bushie thing gets ahead of me.
"People making too much out of this."
I don't think so.
Relax. Those worthless, lying, thieving criminal pieces of shit bastards some refer to as Senators are crafty. They have wiped their hands off this responsibility, Big 3 fail or not. It's in Bush's lap now. He either gives them a bridge loan via TARP or he rolls the dice they don't go under before Jan. 21st. This all about Bush now.
USD-JPY: 89.91
"Hanging by a thread writes:
I blame the GOP for TARP "
I blame Mother Theresa. If she hadn't died, none of this nonesense would have happened.
Even with the $15 billion, bankruptcy looms with the credit freeze.
USD-JPY: 89.91
MaurS
aint that just sugar on the icing on the cake??
MaurS - where are you getting your FX quotes?
FFDIC:
any thoughts on why there have been hardly any failures by national banks, with the exception of Wachovia. Surely, there's got to be an NA in Skokie or some place? It seems the only banks failing are state-chartered ones. Only thing I can think is that the OCC is kicking the can...
Basel Too | 12.11.08 - 11:10 pm | #
Understaffed, overwhelmed and legal issues related to bank peer size plus wanting to move it into 2009 after DC celebrates whatever. Got to party like it's 2005 you know. Those travel vouchers, OT and per diem are still good for immediate deposit.
Remember when we couldn't put any restrictions whatsoever on the TARP money because if we did the banks wouldn't participate?
I suppose that's because there wasn't any risk that the money might be shared with the working class....
"Madoff hasn't spooked the masses.
Rob Dawg"
A footnote. Who cares.
Barley
I know, only $50m but if some Apple trades hang up or don't settle or get lost the confidence gets broken and the retail investors move to the sidelines and wait. There's also the theory of the single cockroach at work here.
Per Dick Durbin this thing collapsed over UAW wages...
Couldn't GM raise some last minute cash by offering all of these new cars sitting on lots for half price?
It would mean selling them at a loss, but that seems to be the norm for them lately anyway.
}Are you in a union? if not then don't stereotype
toyotaJoe"
No, but I know union job descriptions. "Dude, that is not my job and you cannot ask me to do that. Read the union contract."
"I blame Mother Theresa. If she hadn't died, none of this nonesense would have happened."
I've met her nuns. No happier people in the world. They have no money.
The banks have caved to one act of heroism. One. They ignore congress and threaten the country. They steal at will and harness us with the debt. One group stood up and won. A small battle but meaningful in many aspects.
I believe the Hispanic workers at Republic Window and Door using peaceful pressure and the knowledge they were seeking justice will represent a template going forward. Seize assets and represent yourself as the wronged party. Count on local support and be steadfast in the face of violence but do not react with violence.
All local law enforcement belongs to a union. Law enforcement is also VERY blue collar and have a rugged sense of right and wrong. Law enforcement will do their job and will react if if you threaten their authority. They also will react out of a larger sense of duty to country and community if they see labor's side of the dispute.
Should this come down to protest remember these words. Make a difference because we might only get one shot at righting the ship of liberty. Stand up for your rights and the rights of your fellow citizens. There are enough good uncorrupted people in this country. Stand with them.
People have a lot to say about Bush if they weren't gag ordered.
I have a question, GMAC is now a bank holding company. Why can't TARP money be given to GMAC with the understanding they will lend to GM, Ford, and Chrysler.
This is like one of those cheesy SF Channel Saturday night specials. Detroit dies as head of Nasdaq is caught in $50 Billion fraud.
Starring Lucy Lawless and Lou Diamond Phillips trying to escape Upper East Side before the riots begin.
There's also the theory of the single cockroach at work here.
Rob Dawg
Stuff to dream about Dawg!
hanging, this is the senates GOPers way of throwing the finger at Bush... one last time for following him and his experts (paulsen)... instead of forcing the dems vote they put it squarly on Bush's lap, trust me they didnt give cheney the time of day yesterday...not any respect what so ever..trust me
MaurS - where are you getting your FX quotes?
dk | 12.11.08 - 11:30 pm | #
Bloomberg website
SOMALI PIRATE CHIEF: CAPITALISM AND SOCIALISM CANNOT COEXIST.
Parts suppliers ready to collapse...
Auto Suppliers Share Anxiety Over Bailout for Big Three - NY Times
"Welcome to the new America."
Much like the old, pre-supply-side america, minus the manufacturing jobs.
I thought I heard GMAC was turned down to become a bank.
GMAC didnt yet get the BHC status, im pretty sure.
my understanding is that not enough GMAC shareholders wanted to be considered a bank holding company so they aren't officially
"I have a question, GMAC is now a bank holding company. Why can't TARP money be given to GMAC with the understanding they will lend to GM, Ford, and Chrysler."
GMAC applied to become a bank holding company. They need to restructure their bonds to successfully convert. Most bond-holders are refusing to convert.
thread music, motor crash!
YouTube - Sugarcubes - Motorcrash
Elvis,
I hear that sometimes, but honestly I bust my ass.
The Big Three fail will hold. They won't dare pull another TARP-like, two day later re-vote. They have lost 95% of their legitimacy already. An overnight fast-fix smacks of desperation, disdain for the rule of law, and mutinous panic for the markets. Must maintain shred of dignity! Might actually induce greater panic and exit making.
Hindsight = 20/20. The UAW cleverly rejected concessions because they know Bush will step up to the plate for the sake of his own legacy. Politics, bedfellows...
On the bright side of this-
Fox News is going to take a major hit to their ad budget.
Unions are great. Except when they destroy companies and your job.
GMAC is not now a bank holding company, nor will it become one.
When do the riots starts???
the guest-
sales are down for all auto companies. But sales and profitability are two different things. GM has neither. Giving them a wheelbarrow of cash solves none of thier problems.
looks like it is waaaaay too early for TBT, right? Can we see -1% yield soon? 30 yr at 2%?
who needs interest rates anyway. Bring on the permanent global ZIRP!
JS(Unrated) writes:
\tMaybe Pelosi will have to get on her hands and knees and beg Paulson now. Funny how what goes around comes around.
\t JS | \t \t \t \t12.11.08 - 11:24 pm | #
I bet she is okay with this - give them (Dems) something to whip GOP w/ over the next two years. More 'their fault' - Dems gonna need a lot of that or 2010 is real bad. Plus how many auto plants in her district? GOP needed a fig leaf more than Dems & they didn't get it. I'm really surprised they didn't get the bridge loan into January & then let them fail on O's watch.
Wow.
"and have a rugged sense of right and wrong."
gimme a break
Let's just name Madoff as CEO of GM/Ford and let him cook the books.
Trade chart pr0n - images 30-34: Picasa Web Albums - PeakVT
"looks like it is waaaaay too early for TBT, right"
it has been too early to short treasuries for about 27 years now... what's another few weeks?
88.09!! do i hear 87.00?
Cerebrus dead yet ?
toyo joe..
are you a 45 and hour sweeper or a 45 an hour fascia bumber wiper guy? Just kiddingman..
thought you guys would be tickled to see these twice the number needed and 25% higher paid morons actually have to consider getting your wages
Geoff:
Yeah, I'm taking a hit on my TBT at the moment.
This is like an Olympic Limbo competition.
"Unions are great. Except when they destroy companies and your job."
The unions didn't destroy the automobile industry. The Big 3 destroyed themselves, with the unions' help.
I'm long Spice Islands crushed red pepper for pizza topping and worried. Get me off this thread.
Dryfly has this figured out. The GOP should have given them just enough money to get past the inaugeration and let Barak figure it out. No strategic thinking.
I own TBT and I will until it goes down to zero. Then, I won't own it anymore.
So dumb question - GMAC bonds.. now officially zilch? any payback? May be an interesting trade on a 1 or 2 month to maturity.. just for a flyer.
If GM goes under, does that mean they can finally stop paying healthcare and pensions to anyone related to any past employee of the company for the last 50 years?
Or are union contracts like student loans, and you can't even shake them in bankruptcy?
USD-YEN about to break through 89.
Bloomberg
GOP needed a fig leaf more than Dem
Couldn't figure why the outgoing GOP'ers didn't just vote yea tonight...
"Let's just name Madoff as CEO of GM/Ford and let him cook the books."
Which ones?
Smells like the politicians got a close up experience with why these clowns - management + unions - got these companies into such a mess.
cnbc is updating currencies faster:
Currencies, Currency Markets, News and Rates on International Currency - CNBC.com
"The unions didn't destroy the automobile industry. The Big 3 destroyed themselves, with the unions' help.
mp"
Right, and the arsonist didn't destroy the building. It was the fire.
OMG, JPY to USD is at 89.00
Who the fuck cares about GM really when the entire system is going down? Focus people focus.
Or are union contracts like student loans, and you can't even shake them in bankruptcy?
Union contracts are executory; DIP can accept or reject at his/her option.
This is just going to devastate Sony. And PS3 had dismal November US sales in the NPD numbers.
Bush admin. changed their tune earlier today. Commerce Sec,. Perino the Ice Queen both talked about the importance of this loan, not allowing GM to fail and take 1 million jobs with them. Said economy couldn't take the shock. That admin. is now very nervous. Tomorrow will be interesting.
my homepage is live USD/JPY
Lover of Ham writes:
wow.. political suicide for the democrats given the union support.. its going to be interesting given the 2 or 3 TRILLION they gave Wall Street...
ya sure ya betcha them union-ers be all comin to the republican party dontcha NO
Well, Elvis.
At least I know where you stand.
Hot women and a short of the Treasuries.
You, my man, are now officially Darth Elvis.
FFDIC - that's why we're watching the Ye
more thread music:
YouTube - singing about trucks
I remember 6 years ago, listening to a presentation from a GM executive... when asked why GM doesn't make small efficient cars his response was that "We don't have to, GM leads the auto industry, we dictate what gets made and everyone follows"...your telling me that this line of thinking did not have anything to do with GM's downfall????
kevin, depends on ch 7 or 11. A ch7 liquidation and then all the stuff gets thrown to the mercy of the Pension Benefit (semi)Guarantee Corp. In it's current crisis, which is quickly getting worse, it will get a major restructure. Some money will be paid, by you and me through taxes, but that's about it. In a ch 11, they can have it restructured in a bankruptcy court, and see if any kind of viable company is left. Things are so f-ed up at the current sales rate that there is no way the current system would make it through intact.
Everyone - please correct me if Ive screwed this up. Im exhausted..
Dollar Yen is full crash mode...The Great Unwinding continues...
MARK MY WORDS...at 6:25 pst the Fed/Treasury will issue a press realease with $15 billion from the TARP
...............kayako is coming home......serious Yen carry trading..................
Couldn't GM raise some last minute cash by offering all of these new cars sitting on lots for half price?
It would mean selling them at a loss, but that seems to be the norm for them lately anyway.
Terry
That will never happen in Amerika. It would be like telling someone to sell their house for a reasonable price of say $200,000, when the seller still believes it's worth $300,000.
Who the fuck cares about GM really when the entire system is going down?
If you're hurtling towards the cliff's edge jamming a stick of dynamite in your ass doesn't really help.
Basel Too writes:
Union contracts are executory; DIP can accept or reject at his/her option.
I'll bet if there is any DIP, they might opt to reject the contract.
The Republicans can kiss the midwest swing states goodbye.
"short of the Treasuries."
It was a very small investment that I am willing to watch.
Kudos to MS for YCL heas-up.
Not that I actually got into any of it, but it was pleasant mental masturbation.
What kind of fucking idiots BLAME the unions for this? What the fuck you stupid economists actually do? Are you really worth your salary?
First you wall street fuckers collect billions in some friggin "just imagine our winnings are X" level 3 bonuses and now you blame some welder or assembly line worker for this mess? Well, FUCK AND YOU!
"Anonymous writes:
What kind of fucking idiots BLAME the unions for this? What the fuck you stupid economists actually do? Are you really worth your salary?"
Malt liquor is fun.
What kind of fucking idiots BLAME the unions for this? What the fuck you stupid economists actually do? Are you really worth your salary?
First you wall street fuckers collect billions in some friggin "just imagine our winnings are X" level 3 bonuses and now you blame some welder or assembly line worker for this mess? Well, FUCK AND YOU!
That's the spirit!
If you're hurtling towards the cliff's edge jamming a stick of dynamite in your ass doesn't really help.
PeakVT | 12.11.08 - 11:41 pm | #
Cute PVT.
Looks like I picked the wrong day to quit sniffing glue..
Anonymous writes:
What kind of fucking idiots BLAME the unions for this? What the fuck you stupid economists actually do? Are you really worth your salary?
First you wall street fuckers collect billions in some friggin "just imagine our winnings are X" level 3 bonuses and now you blame some welder or assembly line worker for this mess? Well, FUCK AND YOU!
Anonymous | 12.11.08 - 11:41 pm | #
I might see him at work tomarrow
Anonymous writes:
What kind of fucking idiots BLAME the unions for this? What the fuck you stupid economists actually do? Are you really worth your salary?
First you wall street fuckers collect billions in some friggin "just imagine our winnings are X" level 3 bonuses and now you blame some welder or assembly line worker for this mess? Well, FUCK AND YOU!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just remember, you are talking about $75/hour welders and line workers.
Some wall street fuckers might not have made that in bad commission years.
serf - you naughty, but thanks for the Bjork reminder.
C&C - the riots start in the midwest when a utility company, probably power goes tango uniform and shuts off service, justifiably or not. I would be looking real dang close at corporate performance and risk. Hints: debt, bonds, managerial conflict political interest, leaks, operational problems.
Gonna be a hard winter.
C
Why is bankruptcy and option for 3 auto manufacturers that employ millions, but not an option for AIG, which employs thousands? AIG just asked for another $10 billion. I suppose that the $78k that I owe them on my defaulted second mortgage isn't helping. Apparently, they owned the CDO on it. Too bad they will never get a dime due to the purchase money mortgage rule in CA.
"now you blame some welder or assembly line worker for this mess?"
No, I blame the union that gives the welder $50 an hour plus benefits to do a $15 an hour job.
Unintended consequence #43: Nationalized health care as the UAW medical obligations are suddenly a Federal responsibility.
it will be fascinating if they try to use TARP to bypass Congress. that will cause a righteous currency drop.
Eff the gOP
This seems to sum it all up quite nicely:
YouTube - "Handlebars" by the Flobots
CA debt downgraded...
FT.com / US / Economy & Fed - California’s debt downgraded amid budget crisis
Elvis,
Banks are great. Except when they destroy your company and your job.
My bet is the BB at the Fed pulls some weird arse scheme out that equates to a bail of GM. That dude will buy anything and GMs gotta have something that will put a glimmer in his eye.
And I think the robots do all of the welding nowadays.
The union members just slide the dashboards and sunroofs into place.
Look on the bright side, unlike our children, we'll all be able to say we remember when the U.S. had an auto industry.
33.97/ hr sorry you guys really need to findout the facts before you rant
What.
Are we so attuned to this stuff that Lawyerliz is awakening and scrambling to the PC 'cuz she's getting vibes?
And yeah, I can tell that I'm not gonna be worth a shit tomorrow.
503 this late at night is huge. Well done, but go to sleep people, the world will still be here in the morning.
"No, I blame the union that gives the welder $50 an hour plus benefits to do a $15 an hour job."
Conjure says, "BWAHAHAHA!"
What kind of fucking idiots BLAME the unions for this? What the fuck you stupid economists actually do? Are you really worth your salary?
The kind that I will enjoy seeing lose their, jobs, houses and families when this massacre reaches them as they have enjoyed seeing the same fate happen to others. I hope to see them in hell
@ crispy&cole | \t \t \tHomepage | \t12.11.08 - 11:32 pm |
Take a minute to read c-n-c's link on suppliers DO SO! It tells about HALF of the hell about to break loose. The other half will be the CDS - I can't speak for that.
crispy&cole writes:
CA debt downgraded...
I wonder if that has to do with budget talks breaking down, with no chance of a resolution in sight.
YouTube - Network - Mad as hell
CRVIX dilation at 511? I think I see the head.
503 this late at night is huge. Well done, but go to sleep people, the world will still be here in the morning.
Elvis
Hopefully you won't, elitist prick
If you are getting almost $34 bucks an hour to do manual labor, there had better be a happy ending involved. Just sayin.
CSC an C&C - it's about the just revised figure from $28 bil to $41.8 bil by 2010, for the deficit. And it will get worse than that IMO.
bublam!
Did GM's audit opinion last year mention anything about a going concern issue?
LOL...
I remember 6 years ago, listening to a presentation from a GM executive... when asked why GM doesn't make small efficient cars his response was that "We don't have to, GM leads the auto industry, we dictate what gets made and everyone follows"...your telling me that this line of thinking did not have anything to do with GM's downfall????
steve jobs likes to say that apple doesn't ask consumers want they want, apple tells consumers what they will want.
"I blame the union that gives the welder $50 an hour"
We're conditioned to think this way and ignore the $5,000/hr CEO.
Also, welfare for the poor is bad. Welfare for the rich, good.
Well - Sweden used to have two major car companies. Golden boys and girls all must; as chimney sweepers turn to dust.
$50 an hour will soon mean about $5 purchase power.
from cbs ap story
"Corker brought in the UAW to discuss a proposal that would reduce the wages and benefits of the Big Three automakers to bring them in line with those paid by Japanese carmakers Nissan, Toyota and Honda..."
what is the wage and benefit reduction the uaw was asked to take...dollars per hour and benefits reduced??
anonymous, put down the bagged 40 and understand, no one blames the union worker...f' we would all trake 3-4 times what we were worth in a heartbeat tomorrow...
as Elvis states.. its the f'd up union suits that negotiate your jobs into oblivion..
you do know the story behind stanley the company that makes tape measurers dont you?
DK3DK writes:
Why is bankruptcy and option for 3 auto manufacturers that employ millions, but not an option for AIG, which employs thousands? AIG just asked for another $10 billion....
Because AIG is the whole industry when it comes to the CDS market. If they go under, no one takes up the slack.
Unfortunately for the big three, once they go under, the Japanese big three will take up the slack.
"Couldn't figure why the outgoing GOP'ers didn't just vote yea tonight..."
anyone catch Toe-Tappin' Sen. Craig's outgoing speech on C-span last month? surreal. for some reason he felt compelled to one final shill session for the energy biz.
Mark writes:
"The labor unions were great back in the sweat shop days, but over the past half century they have destroyed the US economy basically through blackmail -- give us more than what we deserve or we shut you down. Now they've blown up GM and probably Chrysler and Ford."
Mark | 12.11.08 - 11:08 pm | #
Yes. The autoworkers engaged in (illegal) work stoppages in the 1930s in the midst of the Depression because they weren't making enough (according to them).
C&C - the riots start in the midwest when a utility company, probably power goes tango uniform and shuts off service, justifiably or not. I would be looking real dang close at corporate performance and risk. Hints: debt, bonds, managerial conflict political interest, leaks, operational problems.
Gonna be a hard winter.
C
Counterpointer | 12.11.08 - 11:44 pm | #
are we back in the first riot prediction pool? i think mine was 8/09.
Autoworkers do not make $70 an hour or even $50+benefits. It is just a convenient lie.
I'm a vulture circling the Chevy lot waiting for the Corvette toe-tag sale.
main street wall street
unions financiers
millions thousands
billions trillions
democracy oligarchy
fat fat
Ben Frank'll Tank Bernanke writes:
USD-YEN about to break through 89.
Already did about 5 minutes ago:
Real-Time Forex Quotes
GM is the world's largest corporate issuer and there's a trillion notional in CDS written on them. this is beyond huge.
crispy & cole - "MARK MY WORDS...at 6:25 pst the Fed/Treasury will issue a press realease with $15 billion from the TARP"
Seems plausible ... I'm sure the 'insiders' will be positioned accordingly
Brock Sampson writes:
Autoworkers do not make $70 an hour or even $50+benefits. It is just a convenient lie.
And CEO's don't make millions a year either.
We all get it.
"$50 an hour will soon mean about $5 purchase power."
at least commodities are weak overnight. there's another chance to buy against that concept if you really believe it (aside from the tax burden implied, which nothing can be done about).
I'm really surprised they didn't get the bridge loan into January & then let them fail on O's watch.
Wow.
dryfly | 12.11.08 - 11:35 pm | #
The GOP leadership should stop listening to Rush, according to Colin Powell. It does seem what 'leadership' they have is very short sighted and prone to serious mistakes. They just nudged the unemployment rate to double digits. Layoffs were coming anyway, but people will point to this specific incident which tipped the boat upside down.
I am shocked and appalled by many of the comments here that are so quick to criticize the autoworkers and grossly misplace the blame that is due. Many of you appear to think you are somehow immune from what it going on in the economy at large. Guess what geniuses? If the U.S. auto industry goes down, the hard times will get much harder and you WILL be affected. You can bank on it.
So many of the comments here make me ashamed to be an American. Is that clear?
Class warfare looms based on the discusion here tonight. Probably inevitable given where we are now.
toyo joe... if the GM workers would have reduced their hourly to what toyota workers make the bill would have passed...
simple as that
The good news is, the likelihood of war might diminish since we're not going to have a manufacturing base to speak of.
As I think about it, we might wind up taking the old English approach of weak Army and really strong Navy.
Long shipbuilders?
What will most likely happen is Paulson will give them just enough money to last till the end of January from the Tarp. May even be on the cheap.
FDIC braces for tough banking climate in 2009 - Dec. 11, 2008
'Wanted: Bank failure specialist'
The FDIC is looking to hire about 125 new workers in order to cope with more bank turmoil in 2009. Starting salary? $156,000 per year.
Such positions typically last for two years or more, and come with a salary of as much as $156,000, according to postings on the FDIC Web site. A "resolution and closings manager" is eligible for of annual salary of nearly $178,000.
(I reached $80k after 19 years. Times have definitely changed.)
Well done, but go to sleep people, the world will still be here in the morning.
I want to see that Indian girl on CNBC cry.
"So many of the comments here make me ashamed to be an American. Is that clear?"
Yes, I agree with you completely.
They just nudged the unemployment rate to double digits.
My home state is looking at possible 14% by next summer.
$380M More Cut From State Budget - Greenville News Story - WYFF Greenville
Why is it that the democrats can never seem to grow a pair ...? The republicans have threatened to filibuster. Make them filibuster!
The dems are weak when they lose (sic) elections and weak when they win.
We need other alternatives...
Persecuted Comrade Anonymouse writes:
I admit to not understanding the exact disastrous consequences of LEH going under way back in ancient history last September; I will not underestimate this (GM $40 billion in debt; $1 trillion written against in CDS; some financial institutions will go under)
Persecuted Comrade Anonymouse | Homepage | 12.11.08 - 11:15 pm | #
--
I think the key here is that we have not even experienced the full blow from LEH going down yet.
Some aspects of this unwind move quicker then others. And that is not convenient.
I want to see that Indian girl on CNBC cry.
REBear | 12.11.08 - 11:52 pm | #
LMFAO!!!
Joe writes:
If you are getting almost $34 bucks an hour to do manual labor, there had better be a happy ending involved. Just sayin.
Joe | 12.11.08 - 11:48 pm | #
hehe cute, But how many of you can honestly say that they are certified to weld(6010, 7018), can machine anything within 1,000 tolerance, NFPA pneumatic and hydraulic specialist and technician, fluent with AB and toyopuc PLC's ....I suppose if can't find a job like I got now I could go back to my old job...radiological technician and mechanical operator for nuclear power plants....
33.97/ hr hell I'm UNDERPAID
I'm buying F tomorrow. Make another quick 45% off that pig
They are working on their "plan" to save the U.S. markets.
Expect an announcement by 9 AM EST.
Joe6pak will be Joe1can.
"No, I blame the union that gives the welder $50 an hour plus benefits to do a $15 an hour job."
I blame the people who shuffle bits of paper around without producing anything of value other than other bits of paper, for much more than $50 an hour...
What banks have the largest exposures to Chrysler and GM?
I'm coverin' my SPY puts and buyin' the calls. No way the shrub lets this melt all the way down on his watch...
Thats all folks...Senators are going home...tommorow will be ugly...
Maybe they can replace GM from the DOW to tonight to ease the pain?
Does anyone know if my extended warranty on my 06 Suburban will still be valid?
Thanks,
Sarcasm
Comrade Lurker writes:
"No, I blame the union that gives the welder $50 an hour plus benefits to do a $15 an hour job."
I blame the people who shuffle bits of paper around without producing anything of value other than other bits of paper, for much more than $50 an hour...
Comrade Lurker | 12.11.08 - 11:54 pm | #
Amen brother
Well - euro is finally finding its footing again. Greece collapsing was a downer... but now Michigan and California are going down in a stunning double act.
crispy&cole writes:
Thats all folks...Senators are going home...tommorow will be ugly...
Wouldn't want to cut into their vacation for something relatively minor like a meltdown of the U.S. auto industry.
question? Why is it most on here say we should have let all the banks, ins companies be set free and allowed to die, that TARP and bail out just extends the national crisis making it worse, but yet when it comes to IMBY my company, we say oh we cant fail...
we cant baiolout everything, mayors, newspapers, etc....
"So many of the comments here make me ashamed to be an American. Is that clear?"
Yes, I agree with you completely.
mp
I've been ashamed to be an American since bombed innocent Iraqis to their death based on lies and idealogies. Comments make you ashamed?
But how many of you can honestly say that they are certified to weld(6010, 7018), can machine anything within 1,000 tolerance
A friggn machine can do this! Lets build the machine and kiss off the labor. Inelastic sob.
think, people, many of us have been here for years and have been well aware of this coming down the pike and profitably prepped for it. it still totally sucks and even though we tried to prevent it, we failed. we know that it will have an effect on us and those that did not heed and it SUCKS.
i don't know any of the old guard or the majority of the new rockstars who blame the workers. contribute or go away.
'night.