As I understand it, the Senate would have had an auto salvage deal IF the UAW had agreed to a provision reducing total labor compensation (including pensions and health care paid to employees no longer working) for the Detroit 3 to the same levels as those of the major transplants - Toyota, Honda and Nissan.
And the UAW rejected the deal and so nothing passed and GM may have to declare bankruptcy if the TARP funds aren't utilized.
Now if the account above is true, doesn't that tell you that any attempt at bailing out the Detroit 3 would have failed because the companies never could have stuck to the cost reduction plan(s) and so they'd be back time after time to the tune of $100-$150 billion instead of the $9-17 billion or so that they supposedly need to stave off illiquidity-driven bankruptcy?
t.k.foster(Unrated) writes: Off topic, but Dana Perino is kind of cute. \t So was Eva Braun, but I wouldn't sleep with here either (even if she was still alive, and not like 90).
Keep bailing everything out with money we don't have AND keep the market going in wild gyrations to make big money off the wild ride. Anyone here think that fortunes were not made on the "oh-noes, the car companies will fail / nevermind, we'll just TARP them!" whipsaw?
This is what Crony Capitalism is all about - keep everything in chaos and make a fortune on the instabilities.
Why isn't there any provision that management has to cit their salaries to match the US divisions of NIssan, Toyota, etc.?? Why is it just the union workers? Maybe they could be more accepting if everybody was taking the hit??
The most telling thing to me is that the Republicans in the Senate refused to kick the can down the road to the point that the ultimate failure would occur on a Democrat's watch.
So what the fuck was the whole Senate dog-and-pony show all about? Seriously? The WH can get boned by Congress and just turn around and give 'em the money anyways?
"Suppliers, also cash-strapped, may start demanding payment in advance before shipping parts. If enough suppliers get nervous and start demanding cash, the companies could run short. "Then you have this game of musical chairs where everyone wants to make sure they're not the one left without a chair," she said. "That very process can bring the whole structure down. Right now the suppliers have been incredibly disciplined and not saying, 'Hey, pay us first,'" she said."http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081212/D95154BG0.html Hmmm, where have I heard this before???
Elgraccho, according to CNBC, Bush met with the Republicans and told them he would bail out the auto companies with TARP, so they would have political cover to be "principled."
Not that I believe CNBC, but that sounds really plausible to me.
BTW, I was amused at the latest iteration of "bottom" on the part of Business As Usual Network "a multi-month base-building process."
Anyone see that clip of the trader claiming the PPT is real, that the gov't stepped in and bought in the markets on 2 Fridays when the news was so bad all week that it seemed nothing good was going to happen?
Imagine schoolteachers trying to teach U.S. Govt or civics or whatever it's called to kids today. *
"This is how the legislative and executive branches work." And then every day watching this stuff go down and realize that your lesson plan is wildly anachronistic.
I mean in good schools, like the private schools or catholic ones. Not those grimy public schools where they've absolutely given up on the concepts of teaching/learning and it's just poorly supervised daycare for future American dopes.
if they get tarp they are going to be as greedy as aig.
if they dont get something before 1/20/09 its bushs'baby and forever it will be that he killed the great,good execellent auto makers(sarcasm off)
he only has to get them to 1/20/09 and he is clear. at least for history
What is the process at work here? Why blame just the workers?
What about the big wealth holders & owners/players? And what about monetary (money system) control? And control of interest rates.
This is a globalization process run by ________ and the U.S. has to go. Too expensive. Workers here will have to work for less or be depopulated or something? That is the process underway. Globalization. And now the social safety net will have to be defaulted on.
It's all in the name of Global Progress in the New Century. Plus the Endless War. That will be America's purpose
Read the Old Testament for another added perspective not covered here.
the guest | 12.12.08 - 2:30 am | #
Yes unions have overstepped and become self serving.
However: They have served a great service to the USA. All would be working for $ .75 an hour had not they broke the backs of the financial barons of the past.
All snark aside, I think there was at least a figleaf of a notion that the upper muckity mucks would lose out too. Whether that would have happened in reality, who knows?
I just bought 150 December $6 call contracts on UYG (very cheap). If you're looking to hedge some shorts/Dec puts against an Opex rally....looks like a good option to me.
Comment du jour, I want to see any of those "good" Catholic or private schools who receive public money - or vouchers - charged with enrolling any and all students in their areas. No choice in their student body - they take the same student base as the publics.
I'm still out. Staying out for a while. However, thinking if we get to mid 7s might hop in with the thought there would be an O rally for a few months before it dawns on all that down is gonna be the general direction for a long time, and hop out just before that point.
Whose side are you on.
Let's cut the Wall Street bonuses and CEO salaries first.
The UAW is trying to save the American worker and middle class.
The Republicans are just continuing their destruction of America and giving all the money to the top 2%
Farking bernanke and paulson took 2 trillion from us and won't even say where it's goin.
They won't loan to Americans, Americans can't buy cars, Big 3 suffer a cash flow crisis and can't meet obligations, and fucking congress blames the Unions..
Why is it that EVERYBODY agrees that transparency is a critically important idea and that it should be applied to every single segment of the market place EXCEPT FOR the tiny sliver that their organization inhabits?
Ah, okay I was trolling a little bit. I'll ease back on the throttle next time. But I can't imagine teaching poly sci, civics, or economics in an era where there are very few rules left, and the ones that exist are more flexible than a Chinese gymnast. Economic policy is made up on the fly now, and changes hour to hour as we've seen from CR posts.
Because everybody cheats a little. Venial sin, since Catholic schools were mentions. The really bad cheat a lot and don't make up for it in other ways. Morties.
And in my childhood Catholic school all Catholic kids in the parish could go until they got kicked out. No tuition. Taught by nuns. Contributions by parishioners. Also, I don't remember any kid who actually got thrown out, tho the threat was there.
It really doesn't matter what the heck happens. Whether D-traitors get bailed out or not is less significant when compared to a revolution. Anything short of an OK Xmas for peoples portfolio and I bet what just happened in Greece will feel like a drop in the ocean. The prostitutes in CONgress can be made to step down if the people so decide. CEO's can be made to step down if the people so decide. People as a collective block can make anything happen.
Money that comes from the TARP can't have the same strings--no breaking union contracts, no car czar, because there's no legislation for it. Much more of a free giveaway. Good jobs, all.
Institutional buying: 10:00-10:20 (market goes up) Margin liquidation: 1:30-2:30 (market goes down) Buying on weakness: 2:30-3:00 (market goes up) Total chaos and who the F knows: 3:00-4:00 (who knows)
Hanky: War's over, man. You dropped the big one.
Benny: Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
Bush: Germans?
Cheney: Forget it, he's rolling.
Benny: And it ain't over now. 'Cause when the goin' gets tough...
[thinks hard]
Benny: the tough get goin'! Who's with me? Let's go!
[runs out, alone; then returns]
Benny: What the f%&@ happened to the U.S.A I used to know? Where's the spirit? Where's the guts, huh? This could be the greatest night of our lives, but you're gonna let it be the worst. "Ooh, we're afraid to go with you Benny, we might get in trouble." Well just kiss my a$% from now on! Not me! I'm not gonna take this. Waggoner, he's a dead man! Mullaly, dead! Nardelli...
Cheney: Dead! Benny's right. Psychotic, but absolutely right. We gotta take these bastards. Now we could do it with conventional weapons that could take years and cost millions of lives. No, I think we have to go all out. I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part.
Benny: We're just the guys to do it.
Hanky: Let's do it.
Benny: Lets do it!
From Citizen King
Fed funds traded at zero late last night. We have screamed for months
that the official or 'target' Fed Funds rate was irrelevant because the
effective funds rate was much lower, and near zero. Now funds are
trading at zero.
Yet there will be pundits and experts that will assert that the Fed
might cut its target funds rate this week to 50bps or even 25bps - even
though the cut in the target rate is meaningless.
Now that the Fed is paying interest to banks, why did the Fed allow
funds to trade at zero? Yep, they are terrified by something.
Posted by Anonymous Monetarist at 6:47 AM
If the WH was just going to bail out the little 3 with TARP money if congress didn't come up with the bailout money, why did they even bother to hold any hearings to begin with?
It seems like a lot of wasted time and effort for nothing. Was it done to give us the impression that we live in some kind of representative democracy?
Lawyerliz, those days in Catholic schools are long gone. Nuns are outnumbered by secular teachers. And, public schools have to take all students, not ones raised with religious upbringing.
Although, all the Catholic school graduates I know complained endlessly about the nuns - and I mean serious complaints. None were inspiring, none were educationally adventurous, many were mean and spiteful. I never believed half of it - I thought they were exaggerating to conform with the theme of "going to Catholic school," but, thinking about it, I never heard anyone really praise their teachers in Catholic school, while I had two different Latin teachers, of all things, in public schools who really inspired me.
But all this was 30 and 40 years ago, so what do I know!
Must save unions, must save christmas, must stimulate economy. Will drop stimulus money from helicopters into UAW paychecks and prop market despite redemptions. Money alone creates prosperity and manufactures.
which would be worse for unions bk or bo(bailout) gabyjan | 12.12.08 - 10:00 am | #
Both, so they chose bu (Bush).
The bailout as structured forced a real pay cut. UAW knows full well that the president can't let the industry go down, and that $17B is chump change today. So kicking it to obama before allowing real concessions was in their best interest. Of course, they aren't expecting a massive meltdown in the economy before march, which would make the future concessions even more nasty.
A factory job in America was the only place someone without a lot of education could make a decent living.
Nowdays. to me, it seems like one has to purchase the right to have a good job. Purchasing it by going into debt, or having someone else pay, the entry fee or licensing fee. That is a college degree.
For those who can not afford college, a lot of doors that were formerly open; have closed. Is the person who builds things less than a hedge fund manager? No. I think industrialization has destroyed craftsmenship.
Union leadership does not represent the union rank and file. I was on a school board for a few years and we were in contract negotiation with the teachers union regarding the next year's contract. We had limited funds (as always) so we proposed two options to the union. We said you could all have a 1% raise and we would lay no one off, or we could give everyone a 1.25% raise and lay 100 people off. They chose the 1.25% raise and laying people off. To this day I hate unions. They stabbed their own people in the back.
I just feel sorry for the rank and file people who will lose their jobs because the UAW couldn't come to terms with comparable pay for their workers. They chose no jobs over jobs with smaller pay checks. Congratulations Gettlefinger, you f***ed your own people over, again.
If the WH was just going to bail out the little 3 with TARP money if congress didn't come up with the bailout money, why did they even bother to hold any hearings to begin with?
The WH was bluffing, to have 15 billion more for its banker buds and to try to mess up the "green car" program.
Maybe Pelosi just learned that the way to get ahead is to be tough and not give the president everything he asks for. A little late, since Bush is almost gone. But maybe somebody will notice the next time a similar situation comes up.
Yeah, Sue, those days are gone. And yeah, Sue, I'm one of the complainers. But Sue, I got a really good education.
Some of my high school teachers were moderately adventurous.
I'm just sayin' that circumstances can exist where average kids can learn to read and write, without creaming off the top, at a not absurdly expensive price.
I just feel sorry for the rank and file people who will lose their jobs because the UAW couldn't come to terms with comparable pay for their workers. They chose no jobs over jobs with smaller pay checks.
This is not the unions' problem. Their problem is that they utterly failed to include all workers into a unified workers' movement. They stopped too soon. They got selfish. They left other workers out in the cold. Not only that, but they mucked up other workers' chances to organize themselves.
The UAW is guilty of this big time. I say this as someone who came from a UAW family.
You cannot get in bed with management. If you're going to have a union movement, have a movement. Not "I've got mine."
SKF is a buy under 95, not here. SRS under 70 is a buy. QID under 61 is a buy. They will succumb to gravity. Remember the next shoe to fall will come in Feb. And till then long and strong.
It's all political posturing. The Republicans get to say they were against the bailout while the Republican President turns around and gives the auto's our money. Shocker!
NakedCap..."General Motors and Chrysler, for example, owe their suppliers a total of roughly $10 billion for parts that have been delivered. G.M. has held off paying them for weeks, and Chrysler is paying in small increments. But the cash shortages at G.M. and Chrysler are getting more severe, according to their top executives and other officials....Many of their suppliers are teetering on the verge of bankruptcy themselves, and do not have the luxury of extending credit much longer."
So GM and Chrysler have been stalling payment to suppliers; all this bailout number might do is make them current with the suppliers once...Big 3 are looking for bailout while shafting their suppliers...hmmm.
what good is it to keep auto manu. alive if banks wont lend me the money to buy a "new fuel efficient car" that is not yet for sale? and why would i buy a car, any car, when im unemployed?
The UAW is trying to save the American worker and middle class.
Horsefeathers. They're trying to save their own cushy butts.
JP
Then why do the UAW workers have higher income/benefits than non-union workers in southern states? It would seem that while saving "their own cushy butts" they are also gaining some income for their constituents.
Those suppliers had better start being tough. Maybe the bigger ones should get together and demand to be made whole directly from the congress. Without any syphoning off from the little 3.
Broward Horne(Unrated) writes: \tWall Street & DC are gigantic expensive job banks. Can we eliminate them first, please?
Agreed. But if you want the full list of things that fill me with moral outrage, you better lay in a good supply of chips and beer and get comfy, because it's going to take a while.
Rumor is that Met's owner Fred Wilpon had $900mm invested with Bernie Madoff.
Beisball ben berry berry good, to me.
Bernie ben berry berry bad, to Fred.
"Union leadership does not represent the union rank and file."
Unions fought for workers' rights...in the distant past. With union leadership in bed with management and politicians, there is now no protection for the average worker. And non-union workers often benefited after the fact from concessions won by unions.
The grinding down continues...
Even if they get the TARP money, how long will the big three remain solvent?
The US has capacity to produce ~17MM cars per year, and demand is dropping down to around the 10MM level.
In addition, many of the cars GM and the like produce are not affordable by average Americans without resorting to exotic financing (subsidized leases, 96 month loans etc etc). Said exotic financing is no longer available and 17MM cars per year may never return for demographic reasons anyhow. and will certainly not return in the near to intermediate term.
Median household income in the US is $50k. How many of those households can actually afford to have two new $40k SUVs in the driveway without voodoo financing? The whole industry was becoming unsustainable during the "good times" as both the industry and the heavily indebted consumer were unwilling to face reality.
Given the insane amount of forward sales the last few years, and the worsening economic picture, the Big 3 need to make massive capacity cuts and shed legacy costs if they want to continue as going concerns. Pre-pack BK seems to be the only plausible solution, while handing them $15B with few strings attached will end up being as big a debacle as AIG. Just need some kind of slow unwind, as a sudden collapse of the big three and their suppliers would be absolutely devastating and could be the final trigger for the D word.
It would seem that while saving "their own cushy butts" they are also gaining some income for their constituents. Saddlebag | Homepage | 12.12.08 - 10:12 am | #
The fact that their incentives are sometimes aligned with their constituents is coincidental.
By the way, don't get me wrong: I think the best long-term solution for the business landscape would be bankruptcy. However, I do not believe that next monday is the correct day for this to happen. It would be better for the social order if many more smaller bankruptcies took place first, so that governors get their heads together about which gov't services are truly important (I'm looking at you california).
Stalling payment to suppliers is one of the first tactics in the cash-strapped business playbook. But you can only promise pymt Tues for hamburger today only so many times before suppliers get wise and cut you off or demand cash up front.
If the US helps auto, the US needs to be prepared to buy the vehicles produced also. Joe Consumer is in his backyard fixing his old car with chewing gum and chicken wire.
Whoever mentioned upthread that Corker wanted workers salaries to match those paid by Honda/Toyota made a great point...no mention that management should take the same haircut...
It is incredible that people in various parts of the government think they have the free hand of a dictator to take money, allocate, spend as they please.
This really is a breakdown of government very much like the breakdown of the financial system.
It is unordered chaos.
"A precipitous collapse of this industry would have a severe impact on our economy, and it would be irresponsible to further weaken and destabilize our economy AT THIS TIME"
Question: Is there another time that the gov would purposely destabilize the economy?? This is a conspiracy.
I didn't get to attend the Catholic school, instead I had to endur 12 yrs. of Catechism. My stories are way better. I have nothing but fond nun memories. They were so concerned for my soul, I would get special private invites to their kitchen for round table discussions over cocoa-colas. Alas, their attempts were all in vain, as I'm a "confirmed" atheist now, lol.
"A factory job in America was the only place someone without a lot of education could make a decent living."
Education no longer gives the dollar return that all those old charts used to show... and that is because of the escalated cost for the degree and the flooded markets for grads.
I think a good salesperson and a skilled-trade construction worker can both easily beat the average lifetime earning of a college grad once you put the studen-loan debt burden in the equation. Hands-down.
"Most of us dont want the southern standard of living or way of life."
I suspect Detroit will be wishing they had the "southern standard of living" in the immediate future.
"Senate Republicans dramatic revolt against a White House-backed auto industry rescue plan is fraught with political risk.
While the high-stakes gambit places them squarely within the mainstream of anti-bailout public sentiment, at the same time it exposes the party to potentially devastating criticism that its failure to compromise doomed the Big Three automakers and deepened the economic recession.
Republicans argue that their rejection Thursday evening of a $14 billion loan package came in response to the concerns of angry taxpayers who are unwilling to pay for an auto industry bailout on the heels of Octobers $700-billion financial bailout package."
People don't have a problem with collective bargaining...they have a problem with guys getting 90% of full time salary to do nothing. I've worked with steelworkers, diesel mechanics, machinists, and truckers in my career.
You're right. They should be building houses. No, commercial real estate. No, cars. No, wait, what should they being doing again? - s0mebody
Rebuilding infrastructure and agitating for political reforms... wait for it... in their native lands.
Obviously the US can longer bear the costs of being a social and political safety valve for our neighbors to the south. There's also an aspect of morality. It is unfair for the US to continually decant the best and most ambitious and productive people from lands that desperately need their efforts at home.
This is topical if you analogize all the other cases of supporting the unproductive on the backs of contributors.
Yeah, I've heard that nuns were much nicer to those in Catechism class. Interesting about the tendency to be taught theology carefully and rationally resulted in the the exact opposite than that intended.
Unions, strong unions, are necessary--read Galbraith on countervailing powers. We got out of equalibrium, we allowed states to have different organizing rules, we disrupted intrastate commerce with state incentives to build auto plants, we screwed the system, and some here, want to blame the first group screwed.
When a stated administration goal is to make college available and affordable for everybody, then the natural consequence is that a college education becomes both simultaneously overpriced and devalued. And the market is flooded with "college graduates," although as one might expect, when it comes to how well education a person is, dependent upon degree/school, YMMV.
Darn it, I woke up early hoping to witness a circuit-breaker day. It turns out to be nothingburger so far. I want the circuit breaker Conjure promised... please.. as xmas present.
"It is incredible that people in various parts of the government think they have the free hand of a dictator to take money, allocate, spend as they please."
Education no longer gives the dollar return that all those old charts used to show... and that is because of the escalated cost for the degree and the flooded markets for grads.
I can't believe nobody saw this coming. Hoocoodanode.
My parents saw it coming in the '80s. My mom slaved in an office job at a good private university so her kids could get remitted tuition. They knew the loans were going to be killers. It wasn't anything like now, but it wasn't good then either.
Their foresight was probably a main reason why I have savings now and not debt.
Is the market like a "single issues voter"? The only issue right now isn't the "Big 3". There are numerous economic explosions and timebombs and landmines set left and right. Retail is holding up just fine, right? If we bailout out the Big 3 that means people will buy from them, right? California is in great economic shape! Housing is in great shape! Unemployment is pretty low and stable.
I wouldn't really call it a stick-save; I'd say they are trying to blow out the fuze of a very big bomb... so far it's not working, and since Congress recessed the UAW is telling Bush, "Blow harder!".
Solidarity forever
Stop shopping for anything but essentials
End 401k contributions.
Until the southern party stops union busting.
Most of us dont want the southern standard of living or way of life.
And also sick of paying them federal welfare from our tax dollars in the Northeast
Has anyone bothered to read the TARP law to see if providing loans to failing car-makers is in there? I'm not sure I remember reading that part. Can taxpayers sue if the TARP is used in such a manner? I'm guessing not.
I guess the actual wording is... "Congress can buy troubled assets in order to save the economy." So what exactly are we buying?
Cheap wages are not a good thing. Unions are sometimes necessary. Pendulum of needing unions swings back and forth, since union corruption exists too.
Mexico is close to being a failed state due to our appetite for illegal drugs. The cartels are pretty close to being more powerful than the govt if they aren't there already. Seems be me the USA is responsible for this by making those drugs illegal. Apparently they are close to outright war in Juarez, between 2 powerful cartels. This is not something we want on our borders.
I think the promise of DIP financing by the gov't is the best solution.
Husband's company furnishes autos to many of their employees. Large company fleet of US made product. New policy of cars in service for 5 years instead of 3. US car industry must make huge adjustments.
Last comment from me today, and I'll bow out .... my goal is for people to have some kind of middle class life. Maybe that's impossible, but I prefer to think that it isn't. I'm open to how that is achieved - I think national health care would help a lot - would allow for lower wages for many - but right now, unions seem to help that goal.
What I absolutely don't want is to watch the MAJORITY of Americans slide into poverty and sickness - which is what happens with $8/hr and minimal health benefits, while a few ascend to obscene wealth that will be perpetuated in an oligarchy.
Believe it or not, many people are not motivated by the desire for huge wealth. They want security, a modest living, and the time to concentrate on things other than making money. Is this so bad?
yaf writes:
Solidarity forever
Stop shopping for anything but essentials
End 401k contributions.
Until the southern party stops union busting.
Most of us dont want the southern standard of living or way of life.
yaf | 12.12.08 - 10:20 am | #
You are more full of shit than a Christmas Turkey comes to mind. The NEW VW Plant in Chattanooga is gonna be sweet, but who in their right mind would want to leave such a desirable location as Detroit? LOL!
Solidarity forever
Stop shopping for anything but essentials
End 401k contributions.
Until the southern party stops union busting.
Most of us dont want the southern standard of living or way of life.
And also sick of paying them federal welfare from our tax dollars in the Northeast.
The fact that their incentives are sometimes aligned with their constituents is coincidental.
JP
That can be said for CEO's, Hedge Fund Mgrs, Market Makers, Governors, Senators, Contractors building a new home with shoddy materials, Retailers selling obvious crap from China(my pet), etc. Seems systemic and unworthy of singling out one group for villification unless you have an ax to grind with that group for personal reasons. I don't see the excess of fault in the UAW that others see. I see the same custom as is elsewhere in this society. Burn the bridge, I'm across.
"IF the UAW had agreed to a provision reducing total labor compensation (including pensions and health care paid to employees no longer working) for the Detroit 3 to the same levels as those of the major transplants - Toyota, Honda and Nissan."
Which are non-union, no? If so, then what would be the inducement to join the union after that?
It cant come out of the second part unless congress lets it go, you think they will knowing thats what they want to use it for when they voted it down.
General Motors average revenue per vehicle was only $20,659 while Toyota was $26,514 per vehicle. Compounding matters, Japanese profits per vehicle were significantly higher than GM, with a per car profit of $1,433 at Toyota , $1,250 at Honda , and $1,603 for Nissan. Ford had the highest figure among the Big Three, at $620, while GM lost $2,311 per vehicle in 2004.
GM lost 2,311 per vehicle last year! I know I dropped out of my economics PhD program without earning a degree, but I am relatively sure that this is not a sustainable long-run strategy to increase shareholder wealth.
In the meantime Chairman Wagoner earned a salary of $2,200,000 and a BONUS of $2,460,000 last year. How do you get a bonus of any kind when you lead a for-profit organization into returns on investment like that?
Apparently Chairman Wagoner has his head in the sand. He doesn't see any of the above as the main reason GM is doing so poorly. First he uses the reliable canard of health-care costs.
Even a person with the most basic math skills can calculate that this is not one of the fundamental reasons for GMs poor performance. GM loses $2,311 per vehicle. If we were able to waive a magic wand and eliminate all health-care costs from GMs liability sheet, they would still be losing $786 per vehicle.
To illuminate this falsehood in another way; If GM sold its average car for the same price as Toyota (an addition of $5,855 per car) they would eliminate their marginal operating loss and make a profit of $3,544. This would more than cover the large executive bonuses and employee health-care liabilities
Let me give you a little advice Mr. Wagoner. If you want to do a good deed for your employees, shareholders, and society, operate a profitable car manufacturing company that fulfills promises made, and doesnt make promises it cant possibly keep. In short, do what you say you are going to do, and dont lose sight that a for-profit organization benefits society best when it makes a profit. GM didnt enter in these union contracts to do a good deed, they made a business decision that the costs was justifiable and possible to cover.
Mr. Wagoner continues his excuse making by blaming lawsuit abuse and unfair trading practices for GMs woes. As if lawsuit abuse in America doesnt effect Japanese companies producing vehicles in the US.
With all due respect Chairman Wagoner, you need to get your head in the real world. Few domestic buyers would buy an American car at the same price as a similar Japanese car. American cars are not seen as attractive, as reliable, and as economical as the Japanese automobile. If you make a good looking car, with state of the-art technology (no that does not mean On-Star as Chairman Wagoner touted in his op-ed), at a reasonable price, that is reliable up to and over 100,000 miles, and do that year after year. The US auto industry will continue to be viable. This means that you have to constantly innovate. Chairman Wagoner was proud to say GM will be rolling out Hybrid cars in the next few years. He doesnt realize that unveiling five year old technology that your competitor has had a major advantage in for years will not score you points in the consumers mind. Innovate, create new technologies before you competition, or you will be, at best, mediocre in your field. Innovate or die. Simple but true
Which of the union-hating m*$%#kers here want to counter that. Come on.
Why is anyone else listening to the wisdom of Ron Gettlefinger? Uh Ron, how much did the UAW throw into the pot last night? ZERO? Thats what I thought.
I would love to subscribe to your newsletter on quantum mechanics.
Why because I do not subscribe to your tripe that unions are good...tuff shit, I had a union job paid my dews, and when the shit hit the fan I was standing there all alone with my hand in the air wondering where the help was.
It never came...but they made sure to take my dues out as I was handed my last check on the way out the door......
"Lets not fight the Civil War all over again. Or is this implosion of the US economy leading up to that?"
It's exposing a lot of disunity and rage. I think we're going to find out what we're made of, and a good long look in the mirror the morning after a bender is never pleasant.
"Who was the minority in the senate representing?"
"We can't find out who their contributors are"
Um, this is wrong on so many levels. Hopefully the TAXPAYER? Though probably not. His point was valid. The wheels of our political system run on the grease of money.
Non union. I hired a concrete foreman that had recently left the union after being cited twice for pace setting
The unions had their time and place. (Phelps Dodge and the Bisbee deportation) Now they hobble good workers and businesses. I have union friends that agree with me.
Oh.. and we need to abolish Davis-Bacon. ASAP!
Management and capitalist greed drive the US economy into the ground and management quislings come out of the woodwork to union bash. What else is new.
The generalizations and toxic one-liners here at CR is pretty slimey. Certainly a scab, screw-the-secretary, mentality.
If your instincts are so keen, then why have you and your crapitalist masters brought the US economy to the edge of the abyss.
Oh yeah--it is workers' rights that are at fault.
Parasitism has become a way of life for the lazy, do-nothing, corrupt capitalist class and their little management dreebs.
Maybe the working class should start just kicking your worthless asses. You can commiserate with your equally worthless degenerates among the anti-union, in-bred South.
Sorry folks, but the knee-jerk anti-union smack--while the 'in-the-know', semi-educated parasites kick out one-liners is simply slimey. Just as slimy as when you degenerates clapped your hands as the US carpet bombed kids in Iraq.
Worthless, lazy, lying slobs, the whole lot of you.
Do you think by denying these pigs the bailout and asking them to restructure is bad? I like the model where failed institutions have to either go out of biz or restructure. Congress and senate don't screw this one up. Call the markets bluff.
Bigger news has no one talking. The ex-head of Nasdaq referring to his ponzi scheme. What ponzi stuff are the current heads of Nasdaq and NYSE thinking is my fearful question. And you Cox, what is on your mind for the future.
While we are all watching the shiny did anyone post on the inventory declines?
Businesses cut inventories by most in 5 years
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Businesses facing a record drop in sales reduced their inventories in October by the largest amount in five years, another sign the recession likely will force further cuts in production.
The Commerce Department reported Friday that businesses slashed the inventories they were holding on shelves and back lots by 0.6 percent in October, three times the 0.2 percent decline economists expected. It was the biggest cut in inventories since August 2003.
The reduction in inventories came as business sales fell by a record 3.5 percent during the month, even larger than the 2.4 percent drop in September sales, which had been the previous record. Expired
Dan, which part of FL are you talking about? The northern part where people have brains, or the south and middle which are from the NE and have screwed up everything they touch?
That can be said for CEO's, Hedge Fund Mgrs, Market Makers, Governors, Senators, Contractors building a new home with shoddy materials, Retailers selling obvious crap from China(my pet), etc. Seems systemic and unworthy of singling out one group for villification unless you have an ax to grind with that group for personal reasons. Saddlebag | Homepage | 12.12.08 - 10:35 am | #
You are confusing me with a partisan. I would be happy to villify each and every one of those in your list. However, today I villify only the UAW, republicans, democrats, bush, and hank paulson, because those are the idiots that are currently in play.
Trust me, if you stick around this blog, I will be happy to villify all of them eventually. But you need to show some patience, because my villification powers are not infinite.
I have an officially-produced map of California from 1938 which extols the wonderments of the state as a tourist attraction but advises against coming there in search of work.
Lets not fight the Civil War all over again. Or is this implosion of the US economy leading up to that?
Of course not
But the truth needs to be told.
I am damn sick of the snake handlers running the country.
If they want to be poor and stupid OK
But dont need it spread to the rest of the country
It's exposing a lot of disunity and rage. I think we're going to find out what we're made of, and a good long look in the mirror the morning after a bender is never pleasant.
Pavel Chichikov | 12.12.08 - 10:41 am | #
Slave Revolt, come on down because we have Toyota, Honda, BMW and now VW which we are loving down here. Of course we don't have the lovely weather of the rust belt or NE to offer. LOL!
When I was a kid in the late 50s early 60s, it was considered a prosperous time. People were being more and more productive and what was talked about was not just having Saturdays off too, but more leisure time than that and what we were gonna do with it. Since we were all so productive, we didn't need to work so hard.
My granddade left to work at 9--short distance away, and got back at 5 sharp, and was considered a hard worker. 3rd grade education, very smart, got to be a manager, before he couldn't do it anymore due to heart problems.
We let ourselves be convinced we needed plastic toys, and big tvs instead of leisure.
I think things were slightly more egalitarian then, but few owned stock (we did) and the pension my granddad's job paid was pitiful.
We were also bombarded with threats of a new ice age (!), and we were rightly terrified about nuclear war.
The reason the Big 3 are dying is because their cars sell for less.
The reason their cars sell for less is because of poor design, taste and mfg.
Those are all management choices. Decisions made by management.
Even a person with the most basic math skills can calculate that this is not one of the fundamental reasons for GMs poor performance. GM loses $2,311 per vehicle. If we were able to waive a magic wand and eliminate all health-care costs from GMs liability sheet, they would still be losing $786 per vehicle.
To illuminate this falsehood in another way; If GM sold its average car for the same price as Toyota (an addition of $5,855 per car) they would eliminate their marginal operating loss and make a profit of $3,544. This would more than cover the large executive bonuses and employee health-care liabilities
Toyotas CEO makes $1 million, and Wagoner $5 million.
And this Wagoner is the same idiot that made all these choices, ridiculed CAFE, pooh-poohed hybrids.
Yeah, the great management team that made all this crappy decisions had nothing to do with it. It is all UAW's fault.
Yeah, And I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
moqui writes:
Non union. I hired a concrete foreman that had recently left the union after being cited twice for pace setting
The unions had their time and place. (Phelps Dodge and the Bisbee deportation) Now they hobble good workers and businesses. I have union friends that agree with me.
Agree somewhat. My youngest son is an Ironworker and for the last year, the foremen are ONLY keeping guys on jobs that hustle big time. They realize that they have to come in on budget or they're screwed. The old school cruisers are finished. He's saying if they don't really move, they do not get called back to the job.
This is why the whole Obama Revolution - as imagined by dewy-eyed college students and other latte drinkers - was a silly notion from the get go. Toy armchair progressivism that assumed that vague kumbaya ideas could be bankrolled with America's continuing great "wealth." Anyone with half a brain could have seen that the lifestyle and livelihoods of the latte drinkers was going to fall apart, leaving the "Obama Coalition" deeply divided into have-nots and have-lesses.
The whole message of this crowd was 'It's Our Turn!' -- ie, "our turn" to spend money that wasn't even there.
And Obama thinking he can just bat his eyelashes at whatever remains of the true left in this country... equally silly.
The grubby little people are dangerously close to beginning to articulate a leftist political consciousness again... and our political class has no effing idea. I already hear it in the grumblings and mutterings of people around here who have just been laid off. New sentiments are being expressed and some of the bolder ones don't seem to be afraid of using the s-word (as in "system" or even "socialism") in their casual conversations about what's happening today.
Obama's candidacy was a trailing indicator of the economy of the last decade.
Had a similar but short conversation with my own teenage daughter this morning.
She commented taht I looked like crap and told her that online when the Senate failed to pass the automaker bill.
Her comment: "So it's all going to China, huh?"
She then asked whether there would be food shortages and will we be alright?
We've already discussed supply dislocations and I told her I'm happy to live where we live. We're going to be fine...
...actually Spector....NY'ers populate the eastern coast and MidWstnr's usually inhabit the western coast. The north is unknown. I think it's an I-95 vs. I-75 thing..
The truth is unions get sweetheart deals that us regular folks have no shot at. Look at the govt. employee unions. Why is it that they don't participate in the SS system? Free healthcare for your entire life? Sure why the Hell not. Pathetic!
In the NY area, union members ready to retire pull double shifts, but one of those shifts is spent sleeping because they calculate your retirement on your last year of wages. SCUMBAGS!!!!
I've some acquaintanceship with unions, and it's true that the smell coming from some locals is not clean. That goes back a long way. There are problems, including over-restrictive work rules. But the stench of class-warfare emanates from both sides of the negotiating table. This is not an angels and devils scenario. It's a national, social, maybe even anthropological problem.
I remember hearing a story from an anthropologist years ago. He and his colleagues asked some indigenous people in South America the name of the tribe that lived across the river. They were given a name, and when they crossed the river they greeted these people with it, and received an extremely surly welcome.
It turns out that the answer to the question was: "Oh, those guys. We call them the shit-heads."
--
I am quite sure that every born-and-bred American dope thinks that the democracy, as it exists NOW, is better form of govt than monarchy. One can't be a genuine dope unless he, or she, was bred with all kinds of prejudices.
Dopes are fed with, or bred with, a distorted version of history. Propaganda requires it. Nazis learned propaganda from Americans! They were amateurs in that department.
The truth is unions get sweetheart deals that us regular folks have no shot at. Look at the govt. employee unions. Why is it that they don't participate in the SS system? Free healthcare for your entire life? Sure why the Hell not. Pathetic!
Bullshit. All federal government workers are in the SS system since 1982 and pay both SS and the medicare deduction.
It is not free even while you are working.
Dumb cracker
Although, all the Catholic school graduates I know complained endlessly about the nuns - and I mean serious complaints. None were inspiring, none were educationally adventurous, many were mean and spiteful. I never believed half of it - I thought they were exaggerating to conform with the theme of "going to Catholic school," but, thinking about it, I never heard anyone really praise their teachers in Catholic school, while I had two different Latin teachers, of all things, in public schools who really inspired me.
I went to Catholic school all but three years of elementary. In three different states, in the 70s through the early-mid-80s. Most of my teachers, nuns and lay, were good to excellent teachers. My high school was all-girls Catholic, and the nuns were badasses. They were feminists, creative, encouraging, concerned with social justice, funny, overly concerned with PDA at school dances, etc. They taught me how to write well; I went on to get a PhD at one of the top public universities in the country and am a tenured professor in the social sciences. I do think they are partly responsible for molding me, in a good way. Hmm, I guess I should donate to the alumni fund.
Black Star, northern FL residents decided against sticking their heads up their asses unlike the middle and southern sections. I'm a native FL, and I have seen it first hand. The corruption and graft in the middle and south is a NE redux. They screw up everything they touch.
It turns out that the answer to the question was: "Oh, those guys. We call them the shit-heads."
You don't have to go to South America for that. Why do you think American Indians all seem to want to be called something else other than they were called for years? It's because the common name is almost always an enemy's derogatory name for them. That's why the Iroquois don't like being called that; they prefer Haudenosaunee ("People Building a Long House") to Iroquois ("Snakes in the grass").
I suspect "Yankee" was originally an insult as well.
You know guys, if we ladies spent the same time you do commenting on the hunkiness of various media performers, actors, beefcake posers, and well, hunks, we would be firmly told that we were using up the valuable resources of a high minded blog, and we should take our sighs and giggles to a lady's form.
The reason the Big 3 are dying is because their cars sell for less.
The reason their cars sell for less is because of poor design, taste and mfg.
Those are all management choices. Decisions made by management.
Even a person with the most basic math skills can calculate that this is not one of the fundamental reasons for GMs poor performance. GM loses $2,311 per vehicle. If we were able to waive a magic wand and eliminate all health-care costs from GMs liability sheet, they would still be losing $786 per vehicle.
To illuminate this falsehood in another way; If GM sold its average car for the same price as Toyota (an addition of $5,855 per car) they would eliminate their marginal operating loss and make a profit of $3,544. This would more than cover the large executive bonuses and employee health-care liabilities
Toyotas CEO makes $1 million, and Wagoner $5 million.
And this Wagoner is the same idiot that made all these choices, ridiculed CAFE, pooh-poohed hybrids.
Yeah, the great management team that made all this crappy decisions had nothing to do with it. It is all UAW's fault.
Yeah, And I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
yaf, this is from 1998, and you call me a cracker. LOL!
The Basics
The Thrift Savings Plan (TSP) is a voluntary defined contribution retirement savings and investment plan designed to allow Federal Employee Retirement System (FERS) participants to supplement their basic annuity. Civil Service Retirement System (CSRS) employees may also contribute but different rules apply.
FERS employees are automatically a part of the TSP.1 Their employing agencies are required, by law, to contribute an amount equal to 1 percent of each individual's salary to the plan. Employees may contribute up to 10 percent of their salaries each pay period2 on a tax-deferred basis and they receive agency matching contributions on the first 5 percent.3 CSRS employees may contribute up to 5 percent of their basic pay, but there is no government match. The maximum amount an individual (CSRS or FERS) can contribute to a TSP account in 1998 is $10,000.
Participants in the TSP may contribute to any or all of the three investment funds. They may move their money among the funds, apply for loans based upon their accounts, and at separation, receive a distribution from their accounts.
As of April 1998, there were approximately 2.3 million participants in the plan and investments of $66.6 billion.
"The Treasury Department said Friday that it would step in and lend funds to the Big Three auto makers until Congress has time to consider a long-term rescue package next year.
Talks on a rescue package broke down in the Senate late Thursday night, making action on a bailout impossible until 2009.
"Because Congress failed to act, we will stand ready to prevent an imminent failure until Congress reconvenes and acts to address the long-term viability of the industry," Treasury spokeswoman Brooklyn McLaughlin said in a statement. "
i like you!
my wife makes the same complaint. at least she did until we watched boogie nights- she then agreed: wieners on tv are not the same as boobs. impossible to quantify perhaps, but true.
I suspect "Yankee" was originally an insult as well.
mal | 12.12.08 - 10:57 am | #
It still is, in the South. As a transplanted Westerner I dodged most of that nonsense - though after a dating breakup, one of my native Houstonian friend's most cutting observation was, "You could tell she was a Yankee."
As of April 1998, there were approximately 2.3 million participants in the plan and investments of $66.6 billion.
The TSP is in addition to the SS and medicare deduction for federal employees. Similar to a 401K contribution except there is no tax advantage.
Also Federal employees pay a lot more for their Health benefits than the average american worker.
The hub has both a fed pension and ss--but only half ss payment. They urged him, when he rejoined the gov't to waive the pension, but they insisted so much that I said, let's not do that, we didn't and it was a wise decision.
You know guys, if we ladies spent the same time you do commenting on the hunkiness of various media performers, actors, beefcake posers, and well, hunks, we would be firmly told that we were using up the valuable resources of a high minded blog, and we should take our sighs and giggles to a lady's form. lawyerliz | 12.12.08 - 10:57 am | #
Please do not trouble my male ego with your little inconsistencies.
Social Security covers about 96
percent of all U.S. workers; the vast
majority of the rest are state, local,
and federal government employees.
While these noncovered workers
do not pay Social Security taxes on
their government earnings, they
may still be eligible for Social
Security benefits. This poses
difficult issues of fairness, and
Social Security has provisions that
attempt to address those issues,
but critics contend these provisions
are themselves often unfair. The
Subcommittee asked GAO to
discuss Social Security's effects on
public employees as well as the
implications of reform proposals.
What GAO Recommends
GAO has previously recommended
that the Congress consider giving
the Internal Revenue Service (IRS)
the authority to collect the
information that the Social Security
Administration (SSA) needs on
government pension income, which
could perhaps be accomplished
through a simple modification to a
single form. GAO continues to
believe that this important issue
warrants further consideration by
the Congress.
to all you union haters out there I'd put the work ethic of any one UAW member against the entire republican party membership. Whiney ass white collar trash.
And we should stop bailing out all the Gulf states when hurricanes hit. These people have yet to come up with a plan to stop the destruction, and we keep bailing them out. Can we get Shelby and Vitter to sponsor a bill in the house and senate to stop payments and FEMA assistance until they get their heads out of their a$$.
Raise your hand if you would like to get a seperate pension and social security benefits although you never paid a penny into the SS System. Frigging scam artists!
All I know is that I hope the UAW jackasses keep living in La-La Land because all these shiny new plants in the south are SWEET! You call us crackers? We are loving those wages you entitlement whores are too stupid to take. Here's the GAO Report link for the short bus riders:
Raise your hand if you would like to get a seperate pension and social security benefits although you never paid a penny into the SS System. Frigging scam artists!
SPECTRE of Deflation | 12.12.08 - 11:29 am | #
Mikey, you think NO and Galveston were bailed out? Obviously you haven't visited either place. I do want to thank you for those formaldehyde Trailers you sent us though.
Our problem in the south is that you will move south and screw everything up because your corruption is absolute. It's just like a disease!The guy that was trampled to death was trying to protect a mother and child so that you stupid jackasses could buy a TV. You are pros at man's unhumanity to man!!
Federal, State and Local Employees are being paid SS without putting a dime in the system. So says our own govt.!
Cant you even read cracker
It is talking about spousal benefits and time worked when paying social security. It is very possible to have the 10 years of SS coverage and also have time for prior to 1983 in retirement.
Dont worry the government screws those people and does not give them something for nothing
1)Automakers want in on TARP money.
2)Treasury says "Can't be done."
3)Automakers go to Congress asking for 25B.
4)Congress says "No way you corporate jet flying pigs. Drive back and ask nicely."
5)Automakers drive back and ask for 34B.
6)Dems say "Okay, that's better. We'll give you 14B from TARP."
7)White House says "No way. It has to come from green initiative money" (with a wink to Big Oil buddies).
8)Dems say "Oh all right."
9)Republicans from states with foreign auto manufacturers say "No way."
10)White House says "Okay, we'll give you some TARP money without going through Congress."
Seems like steps 2-9 were really an unnecessary nuisance.
Not sure if this has been posted. Dick Cheney went up to the hill to argue for passage of the automaker bailout:
"Administration officials have been warning for weeks that failure to pass the bill could lead to an even deeper recession.
That was the message Vice President Dick Cheney brought to a closed-door Senate GOP lunch Wednesday, reportedly warning that itll be Herbert Hoover time if aid to the industry was rejected, according to a senator familiar with the remarks. A Cheney spokeswoman would neither confirm nor deny the vice presidents remarks."
I'd like to know why Congress went through that sham of a vote if the government was going to overrule it if it didn't like the end result. Does the government really have the power to overrule the will of the people (supposed)?
The whole matter is a non issue to many if there is no market for product.
Now only wonderful Memories of my '67 Chevy; a '68 GTO on the autobahn trouncing Mercedes and BMW.
A decade latter a GEO on the back roads of New Mexico; engine (Toyota) and all with bravery except for the body built in Detroit.
Now Sarte's no exit in a 2002 Blazer bought only because of hip replacement required no low slung vehicle. Everyday a meditation on the shoddy workmanship of American auto workers: all functions (except the drive train) particularly electrical windows. Better said that part of the car not made by robots. This made worse by dealership repairs.
GM product non existing created by GM finance, GM marketing's field of dreams, both which service GM's third dysfuntion: its repair business. No product is there.
In the great depression coming to be traded in for a KIA 100,000 and 10 year warranty. KIA has a better chance of survival than GM.
Senate Republicans were invited, repeatedly, to participate in more than a week of negotiations with a Republican White House.
They declined.
They were asked to provide an alternative bill.
____They refused.____
Finally, one of their members - Senator Corker of Tennessee - participated in a day-long negotiation with Senate Democrats, the UAW, and bondholders. Everyone made major concessions. Democrats gave up efficiency and emissions standards. UAW accepted major benefit cuts and agreed to reduce workers' wages. Bondholders signed off on a serious haircut.
_____But when Senator Corker took the deal back to the Republican Conference, they argued for two hours and ultimately rejected it.___
Why? Because they wanted the federal government to forcibly reduce the wages of American workers within the next 12 months.
Heard this morning that President Bush may still use TARP money to rescue the automakers. He reportedly doesn't want to end up as the next Hoover.
Most of us dont want the southern standard of living or way of life.
yaf | 12.12.08 - 10:20 am | #
You mean currently obese and nurturing their future diabetes as they continually rank as the most unhealthy states in the country, while watching Fox News and listening to Rush as the car sits on blocks in the front yard, and the kids are playing in the old refrigerator in the backyard? That kind of lifestyle?
mal writes:
This is why the whole Obama Revolution ... was a silly notion from the get go.
Wow mal, so many straw men, so little time. Bush, neocons, Wall Street, GOP, faux-Democrats, Greenspan, tax cuts -- are/were the problems. Obama isn't even President yet. Get over it & assume responsibiity as the enabler you no doubt were/are.
Hired before 1982 -- you get CSRS (and pay into it an amount = SS tax)
Hired after 1982 -- you get FERS + TSP (TSP = 401k) + SS (which you pay just like everyone. In theory, FERS + TSP @ 10% + SS = CSRS.
Hired before 1982 and retire -- you get CSRS but no social security. However, if you worked the statutory minimum number of quarters (I think it's 10 quarters) and pay SS, then you are eligible for SS. So you could work 10Q's before, during, or after your Federal employment.
No "free" heathcare -- but admittedly a large choice of plans.
That's how you can not pay SS on your GOVERNMENT earnings but still be eligible for SS.
I live not to far from an auto auction. This past weekend I passed by the area they paved a decade ago to make overflow lots. Those overflow lots are full.
I am confused on what restrictions the Treasury has on this money. Could they spend it on anything they want? Could they bail out my recent losses from shorting the 10-yr Treasury? Is there anyone the Treasury could not simply hand money to?
The Republicans had a chance to really win something by getting the Dems to agree to Corker's plan, but now TARP will have to be used as a stopgap until the new Congress and President take office. They'll come up with a very Democratic plan and be close to having the votes to push it through. At that point there will be at least a few more Republican senators who will recognize the potential risk of political suicide in taking the hard line against Middle America.
yaf writes:
"Whose side are you on.
Let's cut the Wall Street bonuses and CEO salaries first.
The UAW is trying to save the American worker and middle class.
The Republicans are just continuing their destruction of America and giving all the money to the top 2%"
yaf | 12.12.08 - 9:54 am | #
The UAW is only interested in saving its members' a$$es. $75/hour = can't compete. You must be part of UAW
the TARP funds have been abused as it is. It was a huge wasted first effort. I think the administration was hoodwinked, strongarmed or complicit in its usage and subsequent waste.
There is no way that free money could have been given out to the financial firms, where the benefit is for the concentrated few, when the biggest manufacturing giants in America had to bring detailed proposals and lost their jobs because of it--Wagoner of GM was asked to resign.
Great, let's just bail out the laziest, most incompetent, and overpaid workers in America. $144K in salary and benefits for the average UAW worker, and thousands of them still do crossword puzzles all day. Union bosses get paid way more.
These people have been riding America for decades, the same way poison farmers in tobacco country did. You'd save billions paying these people unemployment and forcing them to get a job than to paying them to do crossword puzzles.
Of course they do. Wait. I've heard this story before.
As if this was unexpected... Can't bust the unions, it's a sweet life.
What's next, a declaration that TARP will be used to fund a pension supplement for the President because of dire economic conditins??
"it would be irresponsible"
Irresponsible is as irresponsible does.
Does this administration ever do anything without first floating a trial balloon in from of the NYSE?
By the way, that was a pig-free first. I feel all tingly.
orderly decline instead of precipitous collapse?
And to quote King Theoden of Rohan:
"So it begins."
As I understand it, the Senate would have had an auto salvage deal IF the UAW had agreed to a provision reducing total labor compensation (including pensions and health care paid to employees no longer working) for the Detroit 3 to the same levels as those of the major transplants - Toyota, Honda and Nissan.
And the UAW rejected the deal and so nothing passed and GM may have to declare bankruptcy if the TARP funds aren't utilized.
Now if the account above is true, doesn't that tell you that any attempt at bailing out the Detroit 3 would have failed because the companies never could have stuck to the cost reduction plan(s) and so they'd be back time after time to the tune of $100-$150 billion instead of the $9-17 billion or so that they supposedly need to stave off illiquidity-driven bankruptcy?
GM Bank N.A. It has a nice ring to it.
Off topic, but Dana Perino is kind of cute.
t.k.foster(Unrated) writes:
Off topic, but Dana Perino is kind of cute.
\t
So was Eva Braun, but I wouldn't sleep with here either (even if she was still alive, and not like 90).
Naturally!
Keep bailing everything out with money we don't have AND keep the market going in wild gyrations to make big money off the wild ride. Anyone here think that fortunes were not made on the "oh-noes, the car companies will fail / nevermind, we'll just TARP them!" whipsaw?
This is what Crony Capitalism is all about - keep everything in chaos and make a fortune on the instabilities.
This just in:
TARP funds will be tapped to save the bankrupt TARP.
GM,Chrylser and Ford talked about a collapse of the economy if they dident get the money.
Today Dow Jones is down 2.5 %
Talk about lyeing to congress and the media.
Why isn't there any provision that management has to cit their salaries to match the US divisions of NIssan, Toyota, etc.?? Why is it just the union workers? Maybe they could be more accepting if everybody was taking the hit??
We want taxpayer money !
Come back with a real plan !
We want taxpayer money !
Okay, we'll vote on it. No
We want taxpayer money !
You'll have to ask the president!
etc.
Pardners,
TARP= Terrible Automakers Receive Prayers
The horses are laughing really hard right now!
GIddyup!
Bettie Page > Eva Braun > Dana Perino
r.i.p. Bettie.
GMA down 95% at the open, yes Elizabeth that was an explosion.
There ain't no way in hell they don't bail these clowns out. 14b is chump change.
Assume Crash Positions!(Unrated) writes:
And to quote King Theoden of Rohan:
"So it begins."
Quoted for truth.
For more Lord of the Rings quotes:
Gandalf: "The board is set, and the pieces are moving..."
The most telling thing to me is that the Republicans in the Senate refused to kick the can down the road to the point that the ultimate failure would occur on a Democrat's watch.
What were they thinking?
So what the fuck was the whole Senate dog-and-pony show all about? Seriously? The WH can get boned by Congress and just turn around and give 'em the money anyways?
Fucking a.....
covering 50% of my shorts in here.
SRS now trading below where I closed my position yesterday. God bless America.
tarp = talk about retarded plans!
The WH can get boned by Congress and just turn around and give 'em the money anyways?
Doofus | 12.12.08 - 9:41 am | #
I've got a few pennies I can give GM.
--
White House to the rescue of automakers! Drama continues.
Where is a monarch, or a dictator, when we need one?
Jas
"Suppliers, also cash-strapped, may start demanding payment in advance before shipping parts. If enough suppliers get nervous and start demanding cash, the companies could run short. "Then you have this game of musical chairs where everyone wants to make sure they're not the one left without a chair," she said. "That very process can bring the whole structure down. Right now the suppliers have been incredibly disciplined and not saying, 'Hey, pay us first,'" she said."http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081212/D95154BG0.html
Hmmm, where have I heard this before???
For more Lord of the Rings quotes:
Or another from Theoden: "Ride now!... Ride now!... Ride! Ride to ruin and the world's ending!"
Elgraccho, according to CNBC, Bush met with the Republicans and told them he would bail out the auto companies with TARP, so they would have political cover to be "principled."
Not that I believe CNBC, but that sounds really plausible to me.
BTW, I was amused at the latest iteration of "bottom" on the part of Business As Usual Network "a multi-month base-building process."
Anyone see that clip of the trader claiming the PPT is real, that the gov't stepped in and bought in the markets on 2 Fridays when the news was so bad all week that it seemed nothing good was going to happen?
Today seems like one of those days.
OT:
Derivatives Top 1000 Reference Entities Net notional: 1, 519, 927,233, 826
1.5 what ?
Derivatives Top 1000 Reference Entities
Where would the PPT hide that?
Maybe that's why the Fed's being so secretive about the "recipients" of their $2 trillion loans program?
Doesn't matter if there's a bailout, the South Party Senators just needed to promise they love Toyota and Honda long time, fi dolla.
Imagine schoolteachers trying to teach U.S. Govt or civics or whatever it's called to kids today. *
"This is how the legislative and executive branches work." And then every day watching this stuff go down and realize that your lesson plan is wildly anachronistic.
if they get tarp they are going to be as greedy as aig.
if they dont get something before 1/20/09 its bushs'baby and forever it will be that he killed the great,good execellent auto makers(sarcasm off)
he only has to get them to 1/20/09 and he is clear. at least for history
What is the process at work here? Why blame just the workers?
What about the big wealth holders & owners/players? And what about monetary (money system) control? And control of interest rates.
This is a globalization process run by ________ and the U.S. has to go. Too expensive. Workers here will have to work for less or be depopulated or something? That is the process underway. Globalization. And now the social safety net will have to be defaulted on.
It's all in the name of Global Progress in the New Century. Plus the Endless War. That will be America's purpose
Read the Old Testament for another added perspective not covered here.
the guest | 12.12.08 - 2:30 am | #
Guess what the Guest thinks, CR.
Sue
Thanx. Shrubby doesn't have anything to lose at this point, so that all makes perfect sense (cents?).
My crystal ball says 10:20AM will be a good time to buy back in to SRS.
But Rob Dawg said the MSM was utterly unfair to hang the auto bailout plan on Bush's neck!
Yes unions have overstepped and become self serving.
However: They have served a great service to the USA. All would be working for $ .75 an hour had not they broke the backs of the financial barons of the past.
Every man is worth their hire.
All snark aside, I think there was at least a figleaf of a notion that the upper muckity mucks would lose out too. Whether that would have happened in reality, who knows?
Eric writes:
covering 50% of my shorts in here.
I've only covered about 10% of my shorts...
That little strip in the middle.
CAR(P) = Crappy Automobile Relief Program
I just bought 150 December $6 call contracts on UYG (very cheap). If you're looking to hedge some shorts/Dec puts against an Opex rally....looks like a good option to me.
Trading at $.20
Comment du jour, I want to see any of those "good" Catholic or private schools who receive public money - or vouchers - charged with enrolling any and all students in their areas. No choice in their student body - they take the same student base as the publics.
None of this would be happening if we had a Car Czar.
"Notwithstanding calls for enhanced transparency, the Board must protect against the substantial, multiple harms that might result from disclosure,â
Jennifer J. Johnson, the secretary for the Fedâs Board of Governors http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=apx7XNLnZZlc&refer=home
Hey, just because it's our money .....
I'm still out. Staying out for a while. However, thinking if we get to mid 7s might hop in with the thought there would be an O rally for a few months before it dawns on all that down is gonna be the general direction for a long time, and hop out just before that point.
But I prolly won't have enough nerve to do that.
Whose side are you on.
Let's cut the Wall Street bonuses and CEO salaries first.
The UAW is trying to save the American worker and middle class.
The Republicans are just continuing their destruction of America and giving all the money to the top 2%
Yah, dufus has it in that link to Bloomberg..
Farking bernanke and paulson took 2 trillion from us and won't even say where it's goin.
They won't loan to Americans, Americans can't buy cars, Big 3 suffer a cash flow crisis and can't meet obligations, and fucking congress blames the Unions..
A 700+ FICO score, just to buy a car.
We're fucked.
Make that 11% of my shorts.
Why is it that EVERYBODY agrees that transparency is a critically important idea and that it should be applied to every single segment of the market place EXCEPT FOR the tiny sliver that their organization inhabits?
WHY oh Why is that?
Sue Capital S:
Ah, okay I was trolling a little bit. I'll ease back on the throttle next time. But I can't imagine teaching poly sci, civics, or economics in an era where there are very few rules left, and the ones that exist are more flexible than a Chinese gymnast. Economic policy is made up on the fly now, and changes hour to hour as we've seen from CR posts.
Oh, and full disclosure : I went to public school
However, thinking if we get to mid 7s might hop in
lawyerliz | 12.12.08 - 9:53 am | #
You meant mid 17s, right? We're rallying now....
\tWhose side are you on.
The side of providing for my own family.
Let's cut the Wall Street bonuses and CEO salaries first.
Nonsense. Cut them all, everybody at once.
The UAW is trying to save the American worker and middle class.
Horsefeathers. They're trying to save their own cushy butts.
The Republicans are just continuing their destruction of America and giving all the money to the top 2%
No. They are shaking down the UAW for insufficient donations. (Rove op-ed in today's wsj claims 3-1 for donations to Democrats.)
We wants it, we needs it. Must have the precious. They stole it from us. Sneaky little hobbitses.
Because everybody cheats a little. Venial sin, since Catholic schools were mentions. The really bad cheat a lot and don't make up for it in other ways. Morties.
And in my childhood Catholic school all Catholic kids in the parish could go until they got kicked out. No tuition. Taught by nuns. Contributions by parishioners. Also, I don't remember any kid who actually got thrown out, tho the threat was there.
Like I said, let the Xmas rally begin.
It really doesn't matter what the heck happens. Whether D-traitors get bailed out or not is less significant when compared to a revolution. Anything short of an OK Xmas for peoples portfolio and I bet what just happened in Greece will feel like a drop in the ocean. The prostitutes in CONgress can be made to step down if the people so decide. CEO's can be made to step down if the people so decide. People as a collective block can make anything happen.
Market seems to like whatever bullshit our dumbass prez is selling today....
Wasn't that what the Dems wanted to begin with? Idiot Rebooblicans could have saved everyone this whole charade.
We wants it, we needs it. Must have the precious. They stole it from us. Sneaky little hobbitses.
1134 | 12.12.08 - 9:57 am | #
LOL. Most appropos LOTR quote yet.
We are all Gollum now.
Money that comes from the TARP can't have the same strings--no breaking union contracts, no car czar, because there's no legislation for it. Much more of a free giveaway. Good jobs, all.
sorry disagree the uaw is trying to save itself. unions are for unions in mho. which would be worse for unions bk or bo(bailout)?
Today's agenda:
Institutional buying: 10:00-10:20 (market goes up)
Margin liquidation: 1:30-2:30 (market goes down)
Buying on weakness: 2:30-3:00 (market goes up)
Total chaos and who the F knows: 3:00-4:00 (who knows)
Yes, We need a Car Czar, look what the Drug Czar accomplished.
Drugs are the #1 Cash Crop in my town.
Take your meds and hush up.
We will all be driving GM's soon.
Friday, December 12, 2008
Ben S. Blutarsky
Hanky: War's over, man. You dropped the big one.
Benny: Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
Bush: Germans?
Cheney: Forget it, he's rolling.
Benny: And it ain't over now. 'Cause when the goin' gets tough...
[thinks hard]
Benny: the tough get goin'! Who's with me? Let's go!
[runs out, alone; then returns]
Benny: What the f%&@ happened to the U.S.A I used to know? Where's the spirit? Where's the guts, huh? This could be the greatest night of our lives, but you're gonna let it be the worst. "Ooh, we're afraid to go with you Benny, we might get in trouble." Well just kiss my a$% from now on! Not me! I'm not gonna take this. Waggoner, he's a dead man! Mullaly, dead! Nardelli...
Cheney: Dead! Benny's right. Psychotic, but absolutely right. We gotta take these bastards. Now we could do it with conventional weapons that could take years and cost millions of lives. No, I think we have to go all out. I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part.
Benny: We're just the guys to do it.
Hanky: Let's do it.
Benny: Lets do it!
From Citizen King
Fed funds traded at zero late last night. We have screamed for months
that the official or 'target' Fed Funds rate was irrelevant because the
effective funds rate was much lower, and near zero. Now funds are
trading at zero.
Yet there will be pundits and experts that will assert that the Fed
might cut its target funds rate this week to 50bps or even 25bps - even
though the cut in the target rate is meaningless.
Now that the Fed is paying interest to banks, why did the Fed allow
funds to trade at zero? Yep, they are terrified by something.
Posted by Anonymous Monetarist at 6:47 AM
If the WH was just going to bail out the little 3 with TARP money if congress didn't come up with the bailout money, why did they even bother to hold any hearings to begin with?
It seems like a lot of wasted time and effort for nothing. Was it done to give us the impression that we live in some kind of representative democracy?
Lawyerliz, those days in Catholic schools are long gone. Nuns are outnumbered by secular teachers. And, public schools have to take all students, not ones raised with religious upbringing.
Although, all the Catholic school graduates I know complained endlessly about the nuns - and I mean serious complaints. None were inspiring, none were educationally adventurous, many were mean and spiteful. I never believed half of it - I thought they were exaggerating to conform with the theme of "going to Catholic school," but, thinking about it, I never heard anyone really praise their teachers in Catholic school, while I had two different Latin teachers, of all things, in public schools who really inspired me.
But all this was 30 and 40 years ago, so what do I know!
Must save unions, must save christmas, must stimulate economy. Will drop stimulus money from helicopters into UAW paychecks and prop market despite redemptions. Money alone creates prosperity and manufactures.
Bored In Kenya writes:
Time to rally. Xmas rally is on.
Bored In Kenya | 12.12.08 - 6:43 am |
It was kinda strange that every post yesterday was negative after the failed bailout. Man do I like my URE buy at market open today.
which would be worse for unions bk or bo(bailout)
gabyjan | 12.12.08 - 10:00 am | #
Both, so they chose bu (Bush).
The bailout as structured forced a real pay cut. UAW knows full well that the president can't let the industry go down, and that $17B is chump change today. So kicking it to obama before allowing real concessions was in their best interest. Of course, they aren't expecting a massive meltdown in the economy before march, which would make the future concessions even more nasty.
I don't care if we rally here today - skf's and sds's are in place.. you simply can't ignore (economic) gravity forever.
On factory jobs...
A factory job in America was the only place someone without a lot of education could make a decent living.
Nowdays. to me, it seems like one has to purchase the right to have a good job. Purchasing it by going into debt, or having someone else pay, the entry fee or licensing fee. That is a college degree.
For those who can not afford college, a lot of doors that were formerly open; have closed. Is the person who builds things less than a hedge fund manager? No. I think industrialization has destroyed craftsmenship.
Union leadership does not represent the union rank and file. I was on a school board for a few years and we were in contract negotiation with the teachers union regarding the next year's contract. We had limited funds (as always) so we proposed two options to the union. We said you could all have a 1% raise and we would lay no one off, or we could give everyone a 1.25% raise and lay 100 people off. They chose the 1.25% raise and laying people off. To this day I hate unions. They stabbed their own people in the back.
I just feel sorry for the rank and file people who will lose their jobs because the UAW couldn't come to terms with comparable pay for their workers. They chose no jobs over jobs with smaller pay checks. Congratulations Gettlefinger, you f***ed your own people over, again.
"I don't care if we rally here today - skf's and sds's are in place.. you simply can't ignore (economic) gravity forever."
1970-1980-1990-2000-2010
Every play kick the can?
Regarding TARP
I'm torn between two one liners:
"If you give a mouse a cookie.."
or
"When all you have is a hammer..."
I hope everyone has learned a valuable if expensive lesson about giving governments money.
What's with all the hostility towards unions here?
If the WH was just going to bail out the little 3 with TARP money if congress didn't come up with the bailout money, why did they even bother to hold any hearings to begin with?
The WH was bluffing, to have 15 billion more for its banker buds and to try to mess up the "green car" program.
Maybe Pelosi just learned that the way to get ahead is to be tough and not give the president everything he asks for. A little late, since Bush is almost gone. But maybe somebody will notice the next time a similar situation comes up.
doug r(Unrated) writes:
\tWhat's with all the hostility towards unions here?
\t
Speaking only for myself, the jobs bank fills me with moral outrage.
What's with all the hostility towards unions here?
---Unions suck plain and simple....they had their day, that time has passed.
Yeah, Sue, those days are gone. And yeah, Sue, I'm one of the complainers. But Sue, I got a really good education.
Some of my high school teachers were moderately adventurous.
I'm just sayin' that circumstances can exist where average kids can learn to read and write, without creaming off the top, at a not absurdly expensive price.
doug, it comes from never doing real manual labor. Too many day traders here who suffer from hangnails.
We will all be driving GM's soon
Holy Moly. I knew The Crash would be bad but I never dreamed it would come to this.
I just feel sorry for the rank and file people who will lose their jobs because the UAW couldn't come to terms with comparable pay for their workers. They chose no jobs over jobs with smaller pay checks.
This is not the unions' problem. Their problem is that they utterly failed to include all workers into a unified workers' movement. They stopped too soon. They got selfish. They left other workers out in the cold. Not only that, but they mucked up other workers' chances to organize themselves.
The UAW is guilty of this big time. I say this as someone who came from a UAW family.
You cannot get in bed with management. If you're going to have a union movement, have a movement. Not "I've got mine."
Johnny Lee:
SKF is a buy under 95, not here. SRS under 70 is a buy. QID under 61 is a buy. They will succumb to gravity. Remember the next shoe to fall will come in Feb. And till then long and strong.
and BFATZ, read about the Lattimer Mine Massacre, ordered by management.
Unions can become bloated, but it sure beats having management shoot 500 people in the back.
It's all political posturing. The Republicans get to say they were against the bailout while the Republican President turns around and gives the auto's our money. Shocker!
The Pump-n-Dump is green. Closing more shorts. The fix is in.
Rob Dawg writes:
Regarding TARP
I'm torn between two one liners:
"If you give a mouse a cookie.."
or
"When all you have is a hammer..."
Right on!
Everybody expecting a substantial tax rebate come April 15th had better make room in their driveway.
Assume Crash Positions! writes:
The Pump-n-Dump is green. Closing more shorts. The fix is in.
I may actually need to change mine soon.
Speaking only for myself, the jobs bank fills me with moral outrage
Wall Street & DC are gigantic expensive job banks.
Can we eliminate them first, please?
NakedCap..."General Motors and Chrysler, for example, owe their suppliers a total of roughly $10 billion for parts that have been delivered. G.M. has held off paying them for weeks, and Chrysler is paying in small increments. But the cash shortages at G.M. and Chrysler are getting more severe, according to their top executives and other officials....Many of their suppliers are teetering on the verge of bankruptcy themselves, and do not have the luxury of extending credit much longer."
So GM and Chrysler have been stalling payment to suppliers; all this bailout number might do is make them current with the suppliers once...Big 3 are looking for bailout while shafting their suppliers...hmmm.
I hope everyone has learned a valuable if expensive lesson about giving governments money.
Rob Dawg | Homepage | 12.12.08 - 10:06 am | #
I certainly have. If you're gonna ask for a bailout, be the first to ask for a bailout. Must be a corollary to the "panic first" maxim.
NASDAQ green LOL
simplistic, i know, but:
what good is it to keep auto manu. alive if banks wont lend me the money to buy a "new fuel efficient car" that is not yet for sale? and why would i buy a car, any car, when im unemployed?
/shakes head
The UAW is trying to save the American worker and middle class.
Horsefeathers. They're trying to save their own cushy butts.
JP
Then why do the UAW workers have higher income/benefits than non-union workers in southern states? It would seem that while saving "their own cushy butts" they are also gaining some income for their constituents.
Those suppliers had better start being tough. Maybe the bigger ones should get together and demand to be made whole directly from the congress. Without any syphoning off from the little 3.
Everybody expecting a substantial tax rebate come April 15th had better make room in their driveway
God damn it. I didn't not calculate maintanence costs of a GM into my ad hoc retirement plan.
"What a pre-dicky-ment"
Broward Horne(Unrated) writes:
\tWall Street & DC are gigantic expensive job banks.
Can we eliminate them first, please?
Agreed. But if you want the full list of things that fill me with moral outrage, you better lay in a good supply of chips and beer and get comfy, because it's going to take a while.
UAW action plan...have job banked union guys troll econ blogs proclaiming the benefits of a bailout that will accomplish nothing...
Rumor is that Met's owner Fred Wilpon had $900mm invested with Bernie Madoff.
Beisball ben berry berry good, to me.
Bernie ben berry berry bad, to Fred.
How does Hank feel about using the TARP to help the big three?
"Union leadership does not represent the union rank and file."
Unions fought for workers' rights...in the distant past. With union leadership in bed with management and politicians, there is now no protection for the average worker. And non-union workers often benefited after the fact from concessions won by unions.
The grinding down continues...
Even if they get the TARP money, how long will the big three remain solvent?
The US has capacity to produce ~17MM cars per year, and demand is dropping down to around the 10MM level.
In addition, many of the cars GM and the like produce are not affordable by average Americans without resorting to exotic financing (subsidized leases, 96 month loans etc etc). Said exotic financing is no longer available and 17MM cars per year may never return for demographic reasons anyhow. and will certainly not return in the near to intermediate term.
Median household income in the US is $50k. How many of those households can actually afford to have two new $40k SUVs in the driveway without voodoo financing? The whole industry was becoming unsustainable during the "good times" as both the industry and the heavily indebted consumer were unwilling to face reality.
Given the insane amount of forward sales the last few years, and the worsening economic picture, the Big 3 need to make massive capacity cuts and shed legacy costs if they want to continue as going concerns. Pre-pack BK seems to be the only plausible solution, while handing them $15B with few strings attached will end up being as big a debacle as AIG. Just need some kind of slow unwind, as a sudden collapse of the big three and their suppliers would be absolutely devastating and could be the final trigger for the D word.
Getting uglier by the day
We need more Tarp-bell!
I don't think anybody here is against unions. However most are against any bailout.
Why should i pay for your retirement when my own retirement plan when down the drain? Would you do the same?
doug, it comes from never doing real manual labor. Too many day traders here who suffer from hangnails.
--Dan-in-PA
You're right. They should be building houses. No, commercial real estate. No, cars. No, wait, what should they being doing again?
$15 billion to auto = $1500 billin wanted by everyone else with economic "standing"
I worked for a union company. It was the worst. They protect the lazy, the stupid and the thieves.
I hated knowing a day in advance who was going to be "sick". I could look around at all the extra work I would have to do the next day.
Oh, and then I got laid off and no one from the union showed up to support the closure of the entire company.
I'm sure my union dues went somewhere special.
It would seem that while saving "their own cushy butts" they are also gaining some income for their constituents.
Saddlebag | Homepage | 12.12.08 - 10:12 am | #
The fact that their incentives are sometimes aligned with their constituents is coincidental.
By the way, don't get me wrong: I think the best long-term solution for the business landscape would be bankruptcy. However, I do not believe that next monday is the correct day for this to happen. It would be better for the social order if many more smaller bankruptcies took place first, so that governors get their heads together about which gov't services are truly important (I'm looking at you california).
May have been said but, stick save?
Stalling payment to suppliers is one of the first tactics in the cash-strapped business playbook. But you can only promise pymt Tues for hamburger today only so many times before suppliers get wise and cut you off or demand cash up front.
If the US helps auto, the US needs to be prepared to buy the vehicles produced also. Joe Consumer is in his backyard fixing his old car with chewing gum and chicken wire.
No, wait, what should they being doing again?
Defending the Fatherland, obviously. Wait for it...
amazing how many people here buy into the walmart spin on unions.
How many of those households can actually afford to have two new $40k SUVs
There's only one solution to this...
Adjustable Rate Mobile Loans (ARML!)
"Yes. We Can!"
Whoever mentioned upthread that Corker wanted workers salaries to match those paid by Honda/Toyota made a great point...no mention that management should take the same haircut...
It is incredible that people in various parts of the government think they have the free hand of a dictator to take money, allocate, spend as they please.
This really is a breakdown of government very much like the breakdown of the financial system.
It is unordered chaos.
The GOP's next proposal will be support for the bailout if Big 3 management would promise to first fire all the workers.
"A precipitous collapse of this industry would have a severe impact on our economy, and it would be irresponsible to further weaken and destabilize our economy AT THIS TIME"
Question: Is there another time that the gov would purposely destabilize the economy?? This is a conspiracy.
I didn't get to attend the Catholic school, instead I had to endur 12 yrs. of Catechism. My stories are way better. I have nothing but fond nun memories. They were so concerned for my soul, I would get special private invites to their kitchen for round table discussions over cocoa-colas. Alas, their attempts were all in vain, as I'm a "confirmed" atheist now, lol.
Solidarity forever
Stop shopping for anything but essentials
End 401k contributions.
Until the southern party stops union busting.
Most of us dont want the southern standard of living or way of life.
FLL Renter
It's pretty plain that a BK with the gov providing DIP financing is the only rational solution at this point (I'll demur on the prepack part).
But none of TPTB seem to be looking that way.
So, who's FOS?
"A factory job in America was the only place someone without a lot of education could make a decent living."
Education no longer gives the dollar return that all those old charts used to show... and that is because of the escalated cost for the degree and the flooded markets for grads.
I think a good salesperson and a skilled-trade construction worker can both easily beat the average lifetime earning of a college grad once you put the studen-loan debt burden in the equation. Hands-down.
Anyone smell a global revolution brewing. Hmmm... maybe the people are not dumb afterall.
Bail out Madoff! Save the economy! We can't let guys like that go down; they are the foundation of our economic system.
"Most of us dont want the southern standard of living or way of life."
I suspect Detroit will be wishing they had the "southern standard of living" in the immediate future.
The US has capacity to produce ~17MM cars per year, and demand is dropping down to around the 10MM level.
And Senator Shelby wants all of those to be built in Alabama by Toyota, Honda, Hyundai and Mercedes-Benz.
"Senate Republicans dramatic revolt against a White House-backed auto industry rescue plan is fraught with political risk.
While the high-stakes gambit places them squarely within the mainstream of anti-bailout public sentiment, at the same time it exposes the party to potentially devastating criticism that its failure to compromise doomed the Big Three automakers and deepened the economic recession.
Republicans argue that their rejection Thursday evening of a $14 billion loan package came in response to the concerns of angry taxpayers who are unwilling to pay for an auto industry bailout on the heels of Octobers $700-billion financial bailout package."
People don't have a problem with collective bargaining...they have a problem with guys getting 90% of full time salary to do nothing. I've worked with steelworkers, diesel mechanics, machinists, and truckers in my career.
Lets look on the bright side... Americans become prefered share holders, auto coupons for everyone!
You're right. They should be building houses. No, commercial real estate. No, cars. No, wait, what should they being doing again? - s0mebody
Rebuilding infrastructure and agitating for political reforms... wait for it... in their native lands.
Obviously the US can longer bear the costs of being a social and political safety valve for our neighbors to the south. There's also an aspect of morality. It is unfair for the US to continually decant the best and most ambitious and productive people from lands that desperately need their efforts at home.
This is topical if you analogize all the other cases of supporting the unproductive on the backs of contributors.
lol--sol.
Yeah, I've heard that nuns were much nicer to those in Catechism class. Interesting about the tendency to be taught theology carefully and rationally resulted in the the exact opposite than that intended.
Unions, strong unions, are necessary--read Galbraith on countervailing powers. We got out of equalibrium, we allowed states to have different organizing rules, we disrupted intrastate commerce with state incentives to build auto plants, we screwed the system, and some here, want to blame the first group screwed.
Wally,
When a stated administration goal is to make college available and affordable for everybody, then the natural consequence is that a college education becomes both simultaneously overpriced and devalued. And the market is flooded with "college graduates," although as one might expect, when it comes to how well education a person is, dependent upon degree/school, YMMV.
Darn it, I woke up early hoping to witness a circuit-breaker day. It turns out to be nothingburger so far. I want the circuit breaker Conjure promised... please.. as xmas present.
"It is incredible that people in various parts of the government think they have the free hand of a dictator to take money, allocate, spend as they please."
Where have you been the last 8 years?
"And Senator Shelby wants all of those to be built in Alabama by Toyota, Honda, Hyundai and Mercedes-Benz."
Final assembly may happen in one spot, but cars are 'built' all over America by subcontractors.
Does ron have a 3rd grade speech writer?
"Where have you been the last 8 years?"
I know, I know... but it still amazes me.
Education no longer gives the dollar return that all those old charts used to show... and that is because of the escalated cost for the degree and the flooded markets for grads.
I can't believe nobody saw this coming. Hoocoodanode.
My parents saw it coming in the '80s. My mom slaved in an office job at a good private university so her kids could get remitted tuition. They knew the loans were going to be killers. It wasn't anything like now, but it wasn't good then either.
Their foresight was probably a main reason why I have savings now and not debt.
Oooh, I irked some...
Good!
Profit, as a sole motive for business, has proven to be horribly expensive and damaging to the economy.
I want my 2 trillion dollars back.
UAW calls on Fed, Treasury to save auto industry
Is the market like a "single issues voter"? The only issue right now isn't the "Big 3". There are numerous economic explosions and timebombs and landmines set left and right. Retail is holding up just fine, right? If we bailout out the Big 3 that means people will buy from them, right? California is in great economic shape! Housing is in great shape! Unemployment is pretty low and stable.
I wouldn't really call it a stick-save; I'd say they are trying to blow out the fuze of a very big bomb... so far it's not working, and since Congress recessed the UAW is telling Bush, "Blow harder!".
Go Gettlefinger
Save the UAW
Solidarity forever
Stop shopping for anything but essentials
End 401k contributions.
Until the southern party stops union busting.
Most of us dont want the southern standard of living or way of life.
And also sick of paying them federal welfare from our tax dollars in the Northeast
"A precipitous collapse of [the auto] industry"
Has this guy been asleep since the 1960's???
Final assembly may happen in one spot, but cars are 'built' all over America by subcontractors.
No. it's "all over the world," not "all over America."
Biggest full moon for years enhanced by shooting stars
Tonight.
Treasury ready to prevent collapse.
Expired
Just let me in the game coach!
Are there any circuit breakers if the market goes up 10% or more? Santa, ohh you came late, but you came. Now how high do we go? 950 on S&P?
The Republicans are just continuing their destruction of America and giving all the money to the top 2%
No. They are shaking down the UAW for insufficient donations. (Rove op-ed in today's wsj claims 3-1 for donations to Democrats.)
JP | 12.12.08 - 9:56 am | #
JP, you are a fool.
Galbraith: Short History of Financial Euphoria (1990).
Read it.
Has anyone bothered to read the TARP law to see if providing loans to failing car-makers is in there? I'm not sure I remember reading that part. Can taxpayers sue if the TARP is used in such a manner? I'm guessing not.
I guess the actual wording is... "Congress can buy troubled assets in order to save the economy." So what exactly are we buying?
the reason we subsidize co.'s like Vw to compete in america is because we want(are begging) for a better product. You guys took FOREVER to deliver.
...the very first post on the previous auto topic (1st of 1013 comments):
Nude writes:
Bush will give them the money
Nude | 12.11.08 - 11:03 pm | #
...Congrats......Bush is furthering his reputation of "Worst President in US History"......
Cheap wages are not a good thing. Unions are sometimes necessary. Pendulum of needing unions swings back and forth, since union corruption exists too.
Mexico is close to being a failed state due to our appetite for illegal drugs. The cartels are pretty close to being more powerful than the govt if they aren't there already. Seems be me the USA is responsible for this by making those drugs illegal. Apparently they are close to outright war in Juarez, between 2 powerful cartels. This is not something we want on our borders.
I think the promise of DIP financing by the gov't is the best solution.
Gollum Hummer picture:
Gollum Hummer Pictures - Strange Gollum Hummer Pics
Husband's company furnishes autos to many of their employees. Large company fleet of US made product. New policy of cars in service for 5 years instead of 3. US car industry must make huge adjustments.
Last comment from me today, and I'll bow out .... my goal is for people to have some kind of middle class life. Maybe that's impossible, but I prefer to think that it isn't. I'm open to how that is achieved - I think national health care would help a lot - would allow for lower wages for many - but right now, unions seem to help that goal.
What I absolutely don't want is to watch the MAJORITY of Americans slide into poverty and sickness - which is what happens with $8/hr and minimal health benefits, while a few ascend to obscene wealth that will be perpetuated in an oligarchy.
Believe it or not, many people are not motivated by the desire for huge wealth. They want security, a modest living, and the time to concentrate on things other than making money. Is this so bad?
OK, sorry, done!
yaf writes:
Solidarity forever
Stop shopping for anything but essentials
End 401k contributions.
Until the southern party stops union busting.
Most of us dont want the southern standard of living or way of life.
yaf | 12.12.08 - 10:20 am | #
You are more full of shit than a Christmas Turkey comes to mind. The NEW VW Plant in Chattanooga is gonna be sweet, but who in their right mind would want to leave such a desirable location as Detroit? LOL!
Crispy & Cole called this last night.
Obvious in retrospect, really.
Go Gettlefinger
Save the UAW
Solidarity forever
Stop shopping for anything but essentials
End 401k contributions.
Until the southern party stops union busting.
Most of us dont want the southern standard of living or way of life.
And also sick of paying them federal welfare from our tax dollars in the Northeast.
---Unions suck plain and simple....they had their day, that time has passed.
bfatz | 12.12.08 - 10:08 am | #
What stunning intellectual rigor .
I would love to subscribe to your newsletter on quantum mechanics.
"If we were to work for nothing, it wouldn't help them limp into January".
Ain't that the truth?
So naturally the solution is for us not to work for free, and have taxpayers foot the bill.
The fact that their incentives are sometimes aligned with their constituents is coincidental.
JP
That can be said for CEO's, Hedge Fund Mgrs, Market Makers, Governors, Senators, Contractors building a new home with shoddy materials, Retailers selling obvious crap from China(my pet), etc. Seems systemic and unworthy of singling out one group for villification unless you have an ax to grind with that group for personal reasons. I don't see the excess of fault in the UAW that others see. I see the same custom as is elsewhere in this society. Burn the bridge, I'm across.
More BS from yaf! We have a great life in the south. For one, we don't trample each other for a fucking TV!
I love the free market, as long as it's controlled though. You can't have people losing money or jobs.
Aaah, but Spectre, Florida is the ONLY state to have it's own FARK tag.
'nuff said
Is gettlefinger on live?
Link?
thx
There is one established reorganization process in the US. All the nonsense occurring now is clear evidence that an alternative process is impossible.
When did GM become financial institution?
"IF the UAW had agreed to a provision reducing total labor compensation (including pensions and health care paid to employees no longer working) for the Detroit 3 to the same levels as those of the major transplants - Toyota, Honda and Nissan."
Which are non-union, no? If so, then what would be the inducement to join the union after that?
Umm.. Someone correct me if Im wrong
It cant come out of the second part unless congress lets it go, you think they will knowing thats what they want to use it for when they voted it down.
I thought the first part was all gone too.
Gettlefinger on live-
CNBC Live Video: Watch the Latest Market Reporting and Analysis - CNBC.com
they tried.....couldn't come up with the "buy-in"...
My lesson for today..
NEVER try to trade anything when assuming that the parties involved will act logically.
Whipsaw wounds stinging now.
Since the lies are being recycled again, I will repost this.
MANAGEMENT KILLED THE BIG THREE
Detour » The Greatest Obstacle to Your Success Is Probably You
General Motors average revenue per vehicle was only $20,659 while Toyota was $26,514 per vehicle. Compounding matters, Japanese profits per vehicle were significantly higher than GM, with a per car profit of $1,433 at Toyota , $1,250 at Honda , and $1,603 for Nissan. Ford had the highest figure among the Big Three, at $620, while GM lost $2,311 per vehicle in 2004.
GM lost 2,311 per vehicle last year! I know I dropped out of my economics PhD program without earning a degree, but I am relatively sure that this is not a sustainable long-run strategy to increase shareholder wealth.
In the meantime Chairman Wagoner earned a salary of $2,200,000 and a BONUS of $2,460,000 last year. How do you get a bonus of any kind when you lead a for-profit organization into returns on investment like that?
Apparently Chairman Wagoner has his head in the sand. He doesn't see any of the above as the main reason GM is doing so poorly. First he uses the reliable canard of health-care costs.
Even a person with the most basic math skills can calculate that this is not one of the fundamental reasons for GMs poor performance. GM loses $2,311 per vehicle. If we were able to waive a magic wand and eliminate all health-care costs from GMs liability sheet, they would still be losing $786 per vehicle.
To illuminate this falsehood in another way; If GM sold its average car for the same price as Toyota (an addition of $5,855 per car) they would eliminate their marginal operating loss and make a profit of $3,544. This would more than cover the large executive bonuses and employee health-care liabilities
Let me give you a little advice Mr. Wagoner. If you want to do a good deed for your employees, shareholders, and society, operate a profitable car manufacturing company that fulfills promises made, and doesnt make promises it cant possibly keep. In short, do what you say you are going to do, and dont lose sight that a for-profit organization benefits society best when it makes a profit. GM didnt enter in these union contracts to do a good deed, they made a business decision that the costs was justifiable and possible to cover.
Mr. Wagoner continues his excuse making by blaming lawsuit abuse and unfair trading practices for GMs woes. As if lawsuit abuse in America doesnt effect Japanese companies producing vehicles in the US.
With all due respect Chairman Wagoner, you need to get your head in the real world. Few domestic buyers would buy an American car at the same price as a similar Japanese car. American cars are not seen as attractive, as reliable, and as economical as the Japanese automobile. If you make a good looking car, with state of the-art technology (no that does not mean On-Star as Chairman Wagoner touted in his op-ed), at a reasonable price, that is reliable up to and over 100,000 miles, and do that year after year. The US auto industry will continue to be viable. This means that you have to constantly innovate. Chairman Wagoner was proud to say GM will be rolling out Hybrid cars in the next few years. He doesnt realize that unveiling five year old technology that your competitor has had a major advantage in for years will not score you points in the consumers mind. Innovate, create new technologies before you competition, or you will be, at best, mediocre in your field. Innovate or die. Simple but true
Which of the union-hating m*$%#kers here want to counter that. Come on.
Why is anyone else listening to the wisdom of Ron Gettlefinger? Uh Ron, how much did the UAW throw into the pot last night? ZERO? Thats what I thought.
We have a great life in the south.
SPECTRE of Deflation | 12.12.08 - 10:35 am | #
Not according to life expectancy, literacy and other key parameters of a modern industrial society.
New KIA plan in GA . We are happy to have them .
Lets not fight the Civil War all over again. Or is this implosion of the US economy leading up to that?
What stunning intellectual rigor .
I would love to subscribe to your newsletter on quantum mechanics.
Why because I do not subscribe to your tripe that unions are good...tuff shit, I had a union job paid my dews, and when the shit hit the fan I was standing there all alone with my hand in the air wondering where the help was.
It never came...but they made sure to take my dues out as I was handed my last check on the way out the door......
don't like the truth tuff shit.
"Lets not fight the Civil War all over again. Or is this implosion of the US economy leading up to that?"
It's exposing a lot of disunity and rage. I think we're going to find out what we're made of, and a good long look in the mirror the morning after a bender is never pleasant.
That is "Dues" excuse my punctuation.
"Who was the minority in the senate representing?"
"We can't find out who their contributors are"
Um, this is wrong on so many levels. Hopefully the TAXPAYER? Though probably not. His point was valid. The wheels of our political system run on the grease of money.
A sad day.
yaf writes:
Go Gettlefinger
Save the UAW
Solidarity forever
Stop shopping for anything but essentials
yaf | 12.12.08 - 10:27 am
Thanks for the idea. I've bought my last car!
UAW
Send organizers to the south.
They should be greeted as freedom fighters.
Non union. I hired a concrete foreman that had recently left the union after being cited twice for pace setting
The unions had their time and place. (Phelps Dodge and the Bisbee deportation) Now they hobble good workers and businesses. I have union friends that agree with me.
Oh.. and we need to abolish Davis-Bacon. ASAP!
Management and capitalist greed drive the US economy into the ground and management quislings come out of the woodwork to union bash. What else is new.
The generalizations and toxic one-liners here at CR is pretty slimey. Certainly a scab, screw-the-secretary, mentality.
If your instincts are so keen, then why have you and your crapitalist masters brought the US economy to the edge of the abyss.
Oh yeah--it is workers' rights that are at fault.
Parasitism has become a way of life for the lazy, do-nothing, corrupt capitalist class and their little management dreebs.
Maybe the working class should start just kicking your worthless asses. You can commiserate with your equally worthless degenerates among the anti-union, in-bred South.
Sorry folks, but the knee-jerk anti-union smack--while the 'in-the-know', semi-educated parasites kick out one-liners is simply slimey. Just as slimy as when you degenerates clapped your hands as the US carpet bombed kids in Iraq.
Worthless, lazy, lying slobs, the whole lot of you.
Do you think by denying these pigs the bailout and asking them to restructure is bad? I like the model where failed institutions have to either go out of biz or restructure. Congress and senate don't screw this one up. Call the markets bluff.
Bigger news has no one talking. The ex-head of Nasdaq referring to his ponzi scheme. What ponzi stuff are the current heads of Nasdaq and NYSE thinking is my fearful question. And you Cox, what is on your mind for the future.
While we are all watching the shiny did anyone post on the inventory declines?
Businesses cut inventories by most in 5 years
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Businesses facing a record drop in sales reduced their inventories in October by the largest amount in five years, another sign the recession likely will force further cuts in production.
The Commerce Department reported Friday that businesses slashed the inventories they were holding on shelves and back lots by 0.6 percent in October, three times the 0.2 percent decline economists expected. It was the biggest cut in inventories since August 2003.
The reduction in inventories came as business sales fell by a record 3.5 percent during the month, even larger than the 2.4 percent drop in September sales, which had been the previous record.
Expired
Dan, which part of FL are you talking about? The northern part where people have brains, or the south and middle which are from the NE and have screwed up everything they touch?
That can be said for CEO's, Hedge Fund Mgrs, Market Makers, Governors, Senators, Contractors building a new home with shoddy materials, Retailers selling obvious crap from China(my pet), etc. Seems systemic and unworthy of singling out one group for villification unless you have an ax to grind with that group for personal reasons.
Saddlebag | Homepage | 12.12.08 - 10:35 am | #
You are confusing me with a partisan. I would be happy to villify each and every one of those in your list. However, today I villify only the UAW, republicans, democrats, bush, and hank paulson, because those are the idiots that are currently in play.
Trust me, if you stick around this blog, I will be happy to villify all of them eventually. But you need to show some patience, because my villification powers are not infinite.
umm, interesting to read the regional spats here.
I have an officially-produced map of California from 1938 which extols the wonderments of the state as a tourist attraction but advises against coming there in search of work.
What goes around comes around.
Lets not fight the Civil War all over again. Or is this implosion of the US economy leading up to that?
Of course not
But the truth needs to be told.
I am damn sick of the snake handlers running the country.
If they want to be poor and stupid OK
But dont need it spread to the rest of the country
my goal is for people to have some kind of middle class life.
So does the rest of the world. That's the pickle we're in...
It's exposing a lot of disunity and rage. I think we're going to find out what we're made of, and a good long look in the mirror the morning after a bender is never pleasant.
Pavel Chichikov | 12.12.08 - 10:41 am | #
Well said, Pavel.
Slave Revolt, come on down because we have Toyota, Honda, BMW and now VW which we are loving down here. Of course we don't have the lovely weather of the rust belt or NE to offer. LOL!
When I was a kid in the late 50s early 60s, it was considered a prosperous time. People were being more and more productive and what was talked about was not just having Saturdays off too, but more leisure time than that and what we were gonna do with it. Since we were all so productive, we didn't need to work so hard.
My granddade left to work at 9--short distance away, and got back at 5 sharp, and was considered a hard worker. 3rd grade education, very smart, got to be a manager, before he couldn't do it anymore due to heart problems.
We let ourselves be convinced we needed plastic toys, and big tvs instead of leisure.
I think things were slightly more egalitarian then, but few owned stock (we did) and the pension my granddad's job paid was pitiful.
We were also bombarded with threats of a new ice age (!), and we were rightly terrified about nuclear war.
But where did the leisure/prosperity thing go?
Thanks for the truth
Slave revolt
Numbers dont lie.
The reason the Big 3 are dying is because their cars sell for less.
The reason their cars sell for less is because of poor design, taste and mfg.
Those are all management choices. Decisions made by management.
Even a person with the most basic math skills can calculate that this is not one of the fundamental reasons for GMs poor performance. GM loses $2,311 per vehicle. If we were able to waive a magic wand and eliminate all health-care costs from GMs liability sheet, they would still be losing $786 per vehicle.
To illuminate this falsehood in another way; If GM sold its average car for the same price as Toyota (an addition of $5,855 per car) they would eliminate their marginal operating loss and make a profit of $3,544. This would more than cover the large executive bonuses and employee health-care liabilities
Toyotas CEO makes $1 million, and Wagoner $5 million.
And this Wagoner is the same idiot that made all these choices, ridiculed CAFE, pooh-poohed hybrids.
Yeah, the great management team that made all this crappy decisions had nothing to do with it. It is all UAW's fault.
Yeah, And I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
moqui writes:
Non union. I hired a concrete foreman that had recently left the union after being cited twice for pace setting
The unions had their time and place. (Phelps Dodge and the Bisbee deportation) Now they hobble good workers and businesses. I have union friends that agree with me.
Agree somewhat. My youngest son is an Ironworker and for the last year, the foremen are ONLY keeping guys on jobs that hustle big time. They realize that they have to come in on budget or they're screwed. The old school cruisers are finished. He's saying if they don't really move, they do not get called back to the job.
For the record, I'm against all the Bailouts and think every single one of the banksters should have their asses in jail already.
This is why the whole Obama Revolution - as imagined by dewy-eyed college students and other latte drinkers - was a silly notion from the get go. Toy armchair progressivism that assumed that vague kumbaya ideas could be bankrolled with America's continuing great "wealth." Anyone with half a brain could have seen that the lifestyle and livelihoods of the latte drinkers was going to fall apart, leaving the "Obama Coalition" deeply divided into have-nots and have-lesses.
The whole message of this crowd was 'It's Our Turn!' -- ie, "our turn" to spend money that wasn't even there.
And Obama thinking he can just bat his eyelashes at whatever remains of the true left in this country... equally silly.
The grubby little people are dangerously close to beginning to articulate a leftist political consciousness again... and our political class has no effing idea. I already hear it in the grumblings and mutterings of people around here who have just been laid off. New sentiments are being expressed and some of the bolder ones don't seem to be afraid of using the s-word (as in "system" or even "socialism") in their casual conversations about what's happening today.
Obama's candidacy was a trailing indicator of the economy of the last decade.
Nova (from last thread):
Had a similar but short conversation with my own teenage daughter this morning.
She commented taht I looked like crap and told her that online when the Senate failed to pass the automaker bill.
Her comment: "So it's all going to China, huh?"
She then asked whether there would be food shortages and will we be alright?
We've already discussed supply dislocations and I told her I'm happy to live where we live. We're going to be fine...
Others? Not so much...
Kristina:
Hope that all is okay with the refi.
Good luck.
...actually Spector....NY'ers populate the eastern coast and MidWstnr's usually inhabit the western coast. The north is unknown. I think it's an I-95 vs. I-75 thing..
The truth is unions get sweetheart deals that us regular folks have no shot at. Look at the govt. employee unions. Why is it that they don't participate in the SS system? Free healthcare for your entire life? Sure why the Hell not. Pathetic!
In the NY area, union members ready to retire pull double shifts, but one of those shifts is spent sleeping because they calculate your retirement on your last year of wages. SCUMBAGS!!!!
I've some acquaintanceship with unions, and it's true that the smell coming from some locals is not clean. That goes back a long way. There are problems, including over-restrictive work rules. But the stench of class-warfare emanates from both sides of the negotiating table. This is not an angels and devils scenario. It's a national, social, maybe even anthropological problem.
I remember hearing a story from an anthropologist years ago. He and his colleagues asked some indigenous people in South America the name of the tribe that lived across the river. They were given a name, and when they crossed the river they greeted these people with it, and received an extremely surly welcome.
It turns out that the answer to the question was: "Oh, those guys. We call them the shit-heads."
ratings schemata writes:
Bettie Page > Eva Braun > Dana Perino
r.i.p. Bettie.
Scary, but you nailed it, ratings.
--
I am quite sure that every born-and-bred American dope thinks that the democracy, as it exists NOW, is better form of govt than monarchy. One can't be a genuine dope unless he, or she, was bred with all kinds of prejudices.
Dopes are fed with, or bred with, a distorted version of history. Propaganda requires it. Nazis learned propaganda from Americans! They were amateurs in that department.
Jas
The truth is unions get sweetheart deals that us regular folks have no shot at. Look at the govt. employee unions. Why is it that they don't participate in the SS system? Free healthcare for your entire life? Sure why the Hell not. Pathetic!
Bullshit. All federal government workers are in the SS system since 1982 and pay both SS and the medicare deduction.
It is not free even while you are working.
Dumb cracker
Way off topic, though not off thread:
Although, all the Catholic school graduates I know complained endlessly about the nuns - and I mean serious complaints. None were inspiring, none were educationally adventurous, many were mean and spiteful. I never believed half of it - I thought they were exaggerating to conform with the theme of "going to Catholic school," but, thinking about it, I never heard anyone really praise their teachers in Catholic school, while I had two different Latin teachers, of all things, in public schools who really inspired me.
I went to Catholic school all but three years of elementary. In three different states, in the 70s through the early-mid-80s. Most of my teachers, nuns and lay, were good to excellent teachers. My high school was all-girls Catholic, and the nuns were badasses. They were feminists, creative, encouraging, concerned with social justice, funny, overly concerned with PDA at school dances, etc. They taught me how to write well; I went on to get a PhD at one of the top public universities in the country and am a tenured professor in the social sciences. I do think they are partly responsible for molding me, in a good way. Hmm, I guess I should donate to the alumni fund.
spectre
The gov vs. private union thing is a non-starter.
In BK, the unions usually get theirs handed to them. For a long time now, private companies have been going BK and abrogating contracts.
The next leg down is when govs do the same, which is coming soon to a channel near you.
And just wait until they do the same thing with federal pensions, especially military.
Got ordnance?
But you need to show some patience, because my villification powers are not infinite.
JP
LOL
Black Star, northern FL residents decided against sticking their heads up their asses unlike the middle and southern sections. I'm a native FL, and I have seen it first hand. The corruption and graft in the middle and south is a NE redux. They screw up everything they touch.
It turns out that the answer to the question was: "Oh, those guys. We call them the shit-heads."
You don't have to go to South America for that. Why do you think American Indians all seem to want to be called something else other than they were called for years? It's because the common name is almost always an enemy's derogatory name for them. That's why the Iroquois don't like being called that; they prefer Haudenosaunee ("People Building a Long House") to Iroquois ("Snakes in the grass").
I suspect "Yankee" was originally an insult as well.
You know guys, if we ladies spent the same time you do commenting on the hunkiness of various media performers, actors, beefcake posers, and well, hunks, we would be firmly told that we were using up the valuable resources of a high minded blog, and we should take our sighs and giggles to a lady's form.
--
"Obama's candidacy was a trailing indicator of the economy of the last decade."
mal,
And the leading indicator of the next two decades!
Jas
Numbers dont lie.
The reason the Big 3 are dying is because their cars sell for less.
The reason their cars sell for less is because of poor design, taste and mfg.
Those are all management choices. Decisions made by management.
Even a person with the most basic math skills can calculate that this is not one of the fundamental reasons for GMs poor performance. GM loses $2,311 per vehicle. If we were able to waive a magic wand and eliminate all health-care costs from GMs liability sheet, they would still be losing $786 per vehicle.
To illuminate this falsehood in another way; If GM sold its average car for the same price as Toyota (an addition of $5,855 per car) they would eliminate their marginal operating loss and make a profit of $3,544. This would more than cover the large executive bonuses and employee health-care liabilities
Toyotas CEO makes $1 million, and Wagoner $5 million.
And this Wagoner is the same idiot that made all these choices, ridiculed CAFE, pooh-poohed hybrids.
Yeah, the great management team that made all this crappy decisions had nothing to do with it. It is all UAW's fault.
Yeah, And I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
"But you need to show some patience, because my villification powers are not infinite."
This is one of the funniest comments I've ever read here.
Welcome to Carmegeddon.
yaf, this is from 1998, and you call me a cracker. LOL!
The Basics
The Thrift Savings Plan (TSP) is a voluntary defined contribution retirement savings and investment plan designed to allow Federal Employee Retirement System (FERS) participants to supplement their basic annuity. Civil Service Retirement System (CSRS) employees may also contribute but different rules apply.
FERS employees are automatically a part of the TSP.1 Their employing agencies are required, by law, to contribute an amount equal to 1 percent of each individual's salary to the plan. Employees may contribute up to 10 percent of their salaries each pay period2 on a tax-deferred basis and they receive agency matching contributions on the first 5 percent.3 CSRS employees may contribute up to 5 percent of their basic pay, but there is no government match. The maximum amount an individual (CSRS or FERS) can contribute to a TSP account in 1998 is $10,000.
Participants in the TSP may contribute to any or all of the three investment funds. They may move their money among the funds, apply for loans based upon their accounts, and at separation, receive a distribution from their accounts.
As of April 1998, there were approximately 2.3 million participants in the plan and investments of $66.6 billion.
"The Treasury Department said Friday that it would step in and lend funds to the Big Three auto makers until Congress has time to consider a long-term rescue package next year.
Talks on a rescue package broke down in the Senate late Thursday night, making action on a bailout impossible until 2009.
"Because Congress failed to act, we will stand ready to prevent an imminent failure until Congress reconvenes and acts to address the long-term viability of the industry," Treasury spokeswoman Brooklyn McLaughlin said in a statement. "
-- Market Watch
Gangster: Give us (banks) the peoples money.
Congress: NO.
Gangster: We'll kill their 401k then.
Detroit: Give us (Detroit) the peoples money.
Congress: NO.
Gangster: The peoples 401K is going to the moon.
lawyerliz:
i like you!
my wife makes the same complaint. at least she did until we watched boogie nights- she then agreed: wieners on tv are not the same as boobs. impossible to quantify perhaps, but true.
I love the free market, as long as it's controlled though. You can't have people losing money or jobs.
That rule hold good only for those connected!
I suspect "Yankee" was originally an insult as well.
mal | 12.12.08 - 10:57 am | #
It still is, in the South. As a transplanted Westerner I dodged most of that nonsense - though after a dating breakup, one of my native Houstonian friend's most cutting observation was, "You could tell she was a Yankee."
I love the free market, as long as it's controlled though. You can't have people losing money or jobs.
Me neither.
Screw you, Mr. President. You are destroying this country.
As of April 1998, there were approximately 2.3 million participants in the plan and investments of $66.6 billion.
The TSP is in addition to the SS and medicare deduction for federal employees. Similar to a 401K contribution except there is no tax advantage.
Also Federal employees pay a lot more for their Health benefits than the average american worker.
Look it up dumb cracker
yaf writes:
...
Dumb cracker
yaf | 12.12.08 - 10:55 am
This from the Solidarity Forever booster. Troll...
The hub has both a fed pension and ss--but only half ss payment. They urged him, when he rejoined the gov't to waive the pension, but they insisted so much that I said, let's not do that, we didn't and it was a wise decision.
I don't know the exact details.
Assuming we get anything at all of course.
"Dumb cracker"
yaf | 12.12.08 - 10:55 am
Thanks!!!
I work hard at it!!!
Chris
You know guys, if we ladies spent the same time you do commenting on the hunkiness of various media performers, actors, beefcake posers, and well, hunks, we would be firmly told that we were using up the valuable resources of a high minded blog, and we should take our sighs and giggles to a lady's form.
lawyerliz | 12.12.08 - 10:57 am | #
Please do not trouble my male ego with your little inconsistencies.
From a GAO Study in 2005
Social Security covers about 96
percent of all U.S. workers; the vast
majority of the rest are state, local,
and federal government employees.
While these noncovered workers
do not pay Social Security taxes on
their government earnings, they
may still be eligible for Social
Security benefits. This poses
difficult issues of fairness, and
Social Security has provisions that
attempt to address those issues,
but critics contend these provisions
are themselves often unfair. The
Subcommittee asked GAO to
discuss Social Security's effects on
public employees as well as the
implications of reform proposals.
What GAO Recommends
GAO has previously recommended
that the Congress consider giving
the Internal Revenue Service (IRS)
the authority to collect the
information that the Social Security
Administration (SSA) needs on
government pension income, which
could perhaps be accomplished
through a simple modification to a
single form. GAO continues to
believe that this important issue
warrants further consideration by
the Congress.
to all you union haters out there I'd put the work ethic of any one UAW member against the entire republican party membership. Whiney ass white collar trash.
These jokers are going to destroy this country. It needs to stop! Check out gloomboom.com
And we should stop bailing out all the Gulf states when hurricanes hit. These people have yet to come up with a plan to stop the destruction, and we keep bailing them out. Can we get Shelby and Vitter to sponsor a bill in the house and senate to stop payments and FEMA assistance until they get their heads out of their a$$.
Raise your hand if you would like to get a seperate pension and social security benefits although you never paid a penny into the SS System. Frigging scam artists!
All I know is that I hope the UAW jackasses keep living in La-La Land because all these shiny new plants in the south are SWEET! You call us crackers? We are loving those wages you entitlement whores are too stupid to take. Here's the GAO Report link for the short bus riders:
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05786t.pdf
Raise your hand if you would like to get a seperate pension and social security benefits although you never paid a penny into the SS System. Frigging scam artists!
SPECTRE of Deflation | 12.12.08 - 11:29 am | #
You really are ignorant.
Mikey, you think NO and Galveston were bailed out? Obviously you haven't visited either place. I do want to thank you for those formaldehyde Trailers you sent us though.
Gordon, talk to the hand, or argue with the GAO.
Spectre
FROM your own reference
Federal workers have been paying SS and medicare since 1983
Also
in 1983, amendments to the Social Security Act extended mandatory
coverage to newly hired federal workers and to all members of the
Congress.
Stop being a dumb cracker that does not know what he/she/it is talking about.
Those hired prior to 1983 had an option to switch or continue with the pension system and never receive SS.
Our problem in the south is that you will move south and screw everything up because your corruption is absolute. It's just like a disease!The guy that was trampled to death was trying to protect a mother and child so that you stupid jackasses could buy a TV. You are pros at man's unhumanity to man!!
yaf, go read the GD GAO Report because obviously reading it the first time failed to get through your thick skull.
Federal, State and Local Employees are being paid SS without putting a dime in the system. So says our own govt.!
Federal, State and Local Employees are being paid SS without putting a dime in the system. So says our own govt.!
Cant you even read cracker
It is talking about spousal benefits and time worked when paying social security. It is very possible to have the 10 years of SS coverage and also have time for prior to 1983 in retirement.
Dont worry the government screws those people and does not give them something for nothing
Rob Dawg also blames FDR for our problems today.
Possibly it is a family tradition, but that is just speculation.
A rough timeline:
1)Automakers want in on TARP money.
2)Treasury says "Can't be done."
3)Automakers go to Congress asking for 25B.
4)Congress says "No way you corporate jet flying pigs. Drive back and ask nicely."
5)Automakers drive back and ask for 34B.
6)Dems say "Okay, that's better. We'll give you 14B from TARP."
7)White House says "No way. It has to come from green initiative money" (with a wink to Big Oil buddies).
8)Dems say "Oh all right."
9)Republicans from states with foreign auto manufacturers say "No way."
10)White House says "Okay, we'll give you some TARP money without going through Congress."
Seems like steps 2-9 were really an unnecessary nuisance.
Not sure if this has been posted. Dick Cheney went up to the hill to argue for passage of the automaker bailout:
"Administration officials have been warning for weeks that failure to pass the bill could lead to an even deeper recession.
That was the message Vice President Dick Cheney brought to a closed-door Senate GOP lunch Wednesday, reportedly warning that itll be Herbert Hoover time if aid to the industry was rejected, according to a senator familiar with the remarks. A Cheney spokeswoman would neither confirm nor deny the vice presidents remarks."
Cheney: It's 'Herbert Hoover' time - Yahoo! News
I'd like to know why Congress went through that sham of a vote if the government was going to overrule it if it didn't like the end result. Does the government really have the power to overrule the will of the people (supposed)?
The whole matter is a non issue to many if there is no market for product.
Now only wonderful Memories of my '67 Chevy; a '68 GTO on the autobahn trouncing Mercedes and BMW.
A decade latter a GEO on the back roads of New Mexico; engine (Toyota) and all with bravery except for the body built in Detroit.
Now Sarte's no exit in a 2002 Blazer bought only because of hip replacement required no low slung vehicle. Everyday a meditation on the shoddy workmanship of American auto workers: all functions (except the drive train) particularly electrical windows. Better said that part of the car not made by robots. This made worse by dealership repairs.
GM product non existing created by GM finance, GM marketing's field of dreams, both which service GM's third dysfuntion: its repair business. No product is there.
In the great depression coming to be traded in for a KIA 100,000 and 10 year warranty. KIA has a better chance of survival than GM.
Talking Points Memo | What Happened
Senate Republicans were invited, repeatedly, to participate in more than a week of negotiations with a Republican White House.
They declined.
They were asked to provide an alternative bill.
____They refused.____
Finally, one of their members - Senator Corker of Tennessee - participated in a day-long negotiation with Senate Democrats, the UAW, and bondholders. Everyone made major concessions. Democrats gave up efficiency and emissions standards. UAW accepted major benefit cuts and agreed to reduce workers' wages. Bondholders signed off on a serious haircut.
_____But when Senator Corker took the deal back to the Republican Conference, they argued for two hours and ultimately rejected it.___
Why? Because they wanted the federal government to forcibly reduce the wages of American workers within the next 12 months.
Heard this morning that President Bush may still use TARP money to rescue the automakers. He reportedly doesn't want to end up as the next Hoover.
Most of us dont want the southern standard of living or way of life.
yaf | 12.12.08 - 10:20 am | #
You mean currently obese and nurturing their future diabetes as they continually rank as the most unhealthy states in the country, while watching Fox News and listening to Rush as the car sits on blocks in the front yard, and the kids are playing in the old refrigerator in the backyard? That kind of lifestyle?
He reportedly doesn't want to end up as the next Hoover.
Anonymous | 12.12.08 - 12:49 pm | #
Too late.
mal writes:
This is why the whole Obama Revolution ... was a silly notion from the get go.
Wow mal, so many straw men, so little time. Bush, neocons, Wall Street, GOP, faux-Democrats, Greenspan, tax cuts -- are/were the problems. Obama isn't even President yet. Get over it & assume responsibiity as the enabler you no doubt were/are.
SPECTRE of Deflation,
Here's the deal on federal retirement
Hired before 1982 -- you get CSRS (and pay into it an amount = SS tax)
Hired after 1982 -- you get FERS + TSP (TSP = 401k) + SS (which you pay just like everyone. In theory, FERS + TSP @ 10% + SS = CSRS.
Hired before 1982 and retire -- you get CSRS but no social security. However, if you worked the statutory minimum number of quarters (I think it's 10 quarters) and pay SS, then you are eligible for SS. So you could work 10Q's before, during, or after your Federal employment.
No "free" heathcare -- but admittedly a large choice of plans.
That's how you can not pay SS on your GOVERNMENT earnings but still be eligible for SS.
I live not to far from an auto auction. This past weekend I passed by the area they paved a decade ago to make overflow lots. Those overflow lots are full.
I am confused on what restrictions the Treasury has on this money. Could they spend it on anything they want? Could they bail out my recent losses from shorting the 10-yr Treasury? Is there anyone the Treasury could not simply hand money to?
The Republicans had a chance to really win something by getting the Dems to agree to Corker's plan, but now TARP will have to be used as a stopgap until the new Congress and President take office. They'll come up with a very Democratic plan and be close to having the votes to push it through. At that point there will be at least a few more Republican senators who will recognize the potential risk of political suicide in taking the hard line against Middle America.
The unions have to be very happy today.
Here's the auto bailout anthem
YouTube -
yaf writes:
"Whose side are you on.
Let's cut the Wall Street bonuses and CEO salaries first.
The UAW is trying to save the American worker and middle class.
The Republicans are just continuing their destruction of America and giving all the money to the top 2%"
yaf | 12.12.08 - 9:54 am | #
The UAW is only interested in saving its members' a$$es. $75/hour = can't compete. You must be part of UAW
one inspiring story from a catholic school:
"All the Good Things"
Hi all,
the TARP funds have been abused as it is. It was a huge wasted first effort. I think the administration was hoodwinked, strongarmed or complicit in its usage and subsequent waste.
There is no way that free money could have been given out to the financial firms, where the benefit is for the concentrated few, when the biggest manufacturing giants in America had to bring detailed proposals and lost their jobs because of it--Wagoner of GM was asked to resign.
Best,
Youri
Global View Today!
Great, let's just bail out the laziest, most incompetent, and overpaid workers in America. $144K in salary and benefits for the average UAW worker, and thousands of them still do crossword puzzles all day. Union bosses get paid way more.
These people have been riding America for decades, the same way poison farmers in tobacco country did. You'd save billions paying these people unemployment and forcing them to get a job than to paying them to do crossword puzzles.