Hank Satanson. Say it ain't so.

It is a crock. Cerberus is sitting on cash yet they won't invest another nickel in Chrysler.

If Cerberus won't pony up cash, why should the taxpayer?

What a sham..

Nice to know I woke up in France this morning.
Tom Servo | 12.19.08 - 10:52 am | #
Here's a croissant, a cafe au lait and endemic 12% unemployment.

Nice to see that when Bush was given one more chance to do something (anything) competently, he wet the bed.

"leaves many of the big decisions for the incoming Obama administration."

I think the decision is easy. Repeal the Patriot Act.

Tom Servo writes:
Nice to know I woke up in France this morning.
Tom Servo | 12.19.08 - 10:52 am | #

No, in France, their socialism actually trickles down to the masses. Ours? Not so much.

--
"If Cerberus won't pony up cash, why should the taxpayer? What a sham..."

Angry Saver,

American "taxpayers" are born-and-bred American dopes and the biggest suckkers (easy to be suckered).

There is no sham in Gangstan.

Jas

Give all the money to the president and let him spend it, what a great way to do things.

We need to re-industrialize using green technology to have a productive economy, but our economic problems are only getting addressed as crisises, there is no forward thinking, so the roots of the crisis are never addressed. Just more kicking it down the road. That will only work so long.

Still I am less opposed to this bailout since we need industry, we dont need wallstreet banks. Wall street banks have become gambling houses that do not push capital to productive enterprises.

Also I am a big supporter of unions. This whole we used to need unions is crap, if there was no threat of the UAW, toyota et al would pay thier american worker shit. And there would be no counter to the corporate influence in DC.

If you oppose pensions and retirement healthcare for working people, you are less likely to get it yourself. And you are an ass for hoping someone who works a brutal job for years will have nothing to show for it.

There is no sham in Gangstan.

Jas Jain | Homepage | 12.19.08 - 11:01 am | #

I think that's supposed to be 'shame'... there is plenty of 'sham'.

I'm sorry, but there must be a typo. Surely there is a zero missing, and the bailout fund is 170 billion.

17 billion just doesn't go as far as it used to. 17 billion is just a waste of Paulson's time. Petty cash, friends, petty cash.

Even Alexander Hamilton would blanche at this turn.  Can someone hang some black crepe on the Jefferson Memorial?  Perhaps we should just erase this panel:

"I am certainly not an advocate for frequent and untried changes in laws and constitutions. I think moderate imperfections had better be borne with; because, when once known, we accommodate ourselves to them, and find practical means of correcting their ill effects. But I know also, that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the same coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors." \t\t\t\t
-- to Samuel Kercheval, July 12, 1810

Must be a huge relief to GWB though - one more problem off his desk and thoroughly dumped on Obama. Now George can focus on the holiday spirits & packing up the U-Haul.

A little OT, but there is some bright news out there this morning.

I noticed on the sidebar this headline at HousingWire.com:

"Credit Crisis Spurs ‘Unprecedented’ Litigation Volume, Firm Says"

So at least the lawyers are doing well.

Plenty of work for laid off auto workers in the paralegal/transcriptionist field.

"If Cerberus won't pony up cash, why should the taxpayer?"

Connections and crony capitalism.

Hedge funds and private equity should pound sand.

" Tom Servo writes:
Nice to know I woke up in France this morning.
Tom Servo | 12.19.08 - 10:52 am | # "

WSJ: "leaves many of the big decisions for the incoming Obama administration."

Bush: "Apres moi, le deluge."

Bush: "Apres moi, le deluge."
Not One Cent | Homepage | 12.19.08 - 11:08 am | #

LOL. That's exactly what they would say in France.

"Elvis, you are an asshole.
will"

You always know when somebody cannot support their argument. They immediately start calling names. Will, after recess, let's meet behind the school, so we can fight.

What's the big deal. It's not even half a Madoff.

Elvis - let me know when you go outside.. so that I can tell everyone that you've left the building...

Big Foot writes:
What idiots are buying GM today? the stock is worthless. Funny. When you exchange debt for equity there aint nothing left over for the equity....

unless you use Madoff accounting principles...

Ok elvis AKA "let them eat cake,you think people should not get pension or healthcare when they retire, therefore you are not a nice person.

If autoworker get paid like MLB players I agree then they wont need pensions and the UAW has too much power.

I bet you are right we dont need industry, the country was doing great before the industrial revolutions esp. that slavery.

Are there any societies that are not filled with b&b dopes led by self-interested clans of thugs? Why limit the critique to America (or why make "dopes" uniquely Ammerican)?

Yeah... I don't think you can make the case that this is uniquely an American problem.

I think it has more to do with the progression of society where special interests take over the government and the political system. Entrenched interests begin to suppress freedom and merit to prevent competition for their accumulated power. Political and economic structures are gradually co-opted for this purpose due to widespread complacency and a sense of entitlement.

It's not a phenomenon unique to the US.

Also I am a big supporter of unions

Are you a member of a union, too?

MLM you are right union supports are the same as anti-Semitic crazies.

I bet JAS is a union president.

I think CR has been particularly eloquent today on this topic.

Momma always told me : "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."

Sorry for the repost, but I'm still interested in your thoughts:
OT- I have a question. How is it that reselling a 1962 ranch house is calculated as being part of the GDP? No one does any significant work, and nothing is produced.
Is it only part of the GDP when it (or its mortgage) is divided up and turned into a derivative, or does just the fact that its resold at a new, higher price make it part of the GDP. If the later turns out to be true, does reselling a house at a lower value "subtract" from the GDP? This is a serious question.

I don't think anyone is suggesting we don't need industry, we just don't need workers IN industry making wages that are out of whack with the rest of the system. If a UAW worker is making 25% or 35% more than a non-unionized worker.. who is doing the same job who has the same protections under govt labor laws, then how is that company going to be competitive?

Quick answer: its not.

will writes:
Ok elvis AKA "let them eat cake,you think people should not get pension or healthcare when they retire, therefore you are not a nice person.

I think retirees should get pension and healthcare benefits. And I can't wait for Santa Clause to come down the chimney and bring me some toys! Oh, and save the whales! That is all.

I watched the video that LAM posted a link to on the previous 'I never thought it would die' thread. it was of the Ford plant in Brazil.

Amazing video. Industrial age mass production employing 100's of thousands of people is over in America. It will never come back. If it does, then it will never be what it was for the working class.

There will need to be major cultural reprogramming done soon. It is politically and socially unaceptable to have mass unemployment; yet I can't see anything that will employ people in the numbers needed.

The auto industry in America, and what happens to it, is really a discussion about post industrial Americas future.

so we should drive clay cars, or what?

Apparently, tin foil hatters not so crazy:

A Shock to the System

This is from Michael Panzner's Financial Armageddon site, which I have found to be fairly even-keeled.

"In a column by Steve Watson & Paul Watson at Alex Jones' Infowars.net, "Army 'Strategic Shock' Report Says Troops May Be Needed To Quell U.S. Civil Unrest," we find that that even those who are not ordinarily prone to hyperbole and hysteria are contemplating scenarios that might once have been dismissed as the ravings of lunatics and conspiracy theorists. "Purposeful domestic resistance" would require military to "rapidly determine the parameters defining the legitimate use of military force inside the United States."

A recent report produced by the U.S. Army War College’s Strategic Institute warns that the United States may experience massive civil unrest in the wake of a series of crises which it has termed "strategic shock."...

The increasing militarization of America is part of a long term agenda to abolish Constitutional rule and establish a "military form of government," following a large scale terror attack or similar disaster, as Tommy Franks, the former commander of the military’s Central Command, alluded to in a November 2003 Cigar Aficionado piece.

Franks outlined the scenario by which martial law would be put in place, saying, "It means the potential of a weapon of mass destruction and a terrorist, massive, casualty-producing event somewhere in the Western world – it may be in the United States of America – that causes our population to question our own Constitution and to begin to militarize our country in order to avoid a repeat of another mass, casualty-producing event. Which in fact, then begins to unravel the fabric of our Constitution. Two steps, very, very important."

The fact that General Franks is considering this was disturbing to me. I don't know what the probability of such a turn of events might be, but it's greater than zero.

"There is no sham in Gangstan.

Jas
Jas Jain | Homepage | 12.19.08 - 11:01 am | # "

Actually, everywhere I look I see shams!?

What about this don't the union busters get?
noblejoanie

Let them drive Model-Ts!

I don't think retirees of bankrupt companies should eat from the taxpayer trough. Not without a massive haircut.

Could you please clarify.
So are you saying that you don't think retirees should get pensions?

I think what he's saying is that the wealth isn't there to provide pensions. That a country which consumes more than it produces effectively has no savings. Promises of retirement and pensions in this kind of environment are basically fraudulent.

--
"It's not a phenomenon unique to the US."

ac,

TRUE. American doping is on fire and has spread to most parts of the globe. But the leaders can't blame "everyone." Where does the BUCK stop?

I know how born-and-bred American dopes defend criticism. They are bred with the propaganda tools for the defense of the system!

Sorry,

Jas

PS: Presently, Americans ARE uniquely doped. WE ARE #1!

ac writes:
Could you please clarify.
So are you saying that you don't think retirees should get pensions?

Precisely

"And then if all the union haters want to support GM and Chrysler by buying their vehicles as a response, they'll be getting exactly what they deserve.
Comrade Clueless Dufus"

By the way, I am not a union hater. I just believe that most unions presently are too greedy given the current economic conditions, and they take common sense out of job descriptions.

" Now is a Great time to..... writes:
HARARE (AFP)--Zimbabwe's central bank introduced a new 10 billion Zimbabwean dollar note Friday, as the inflation-battered country battles chronic cash shortages.

We just need larger denominations! Man, it's all so simple.
Now is a Great time to..... | 12.19.08 - 11:30 am | # "

Between WWI and WWII, didn't Hungary have a note with an exponent of 23?

i still dont see how this will help me buy one of them GM cars.

or convince me that i want one

Neural training set -
If policy input is 'orderly', maximize weight on 'bailout'.

30% unemployment sounds a bit much.

Anonymous writes:
one_timmy writes:
This isn't Greater Depression.

Research the panic of 1873. Much more prevelant
Anonymous | 12.19.08 - 11:36 am |

Research the panic of 1873. Much more prevelant
Anonymous | 12.19.08 - 11:36 am

Very interesting from a quick scan. Also, totally unknown to me. Thanks.

Gubbmint Cheese writes:
samdog - I hear the adobe is an amazing car

What's really amazing is that you found a link about a clay car...even if it's a JOKE.

I nominate Gubbmint for the derivative-of-the-day!

It never used to be my nature to wish ill will on others. I can't say that now.

Here's an example. I view Bernie Madoff as a hero in a twisted sort of way. He scammed the scammers and exposed hedge funds and the something for nothing crowd for what hey are - leaches. He poo pooed the wealth without work concept in a big way.

For some reason, I get such a laugh out of seeing shammers get shammed.

Madoff has done far less damage than the government/wall street sponsored shams too. And long term, I think Madoff did this country a service.

oblejoanie: "That's greed."

Perhaps, but it's the American Way (tm)

Sebastian writes:
comrade swan said: "...As horrible as this will feel, in hindsight something wonderful is about to happen...."

Wonderful things are happening now, they just get short shrift here.

I couldn't agree more. Why I'm still driving my 1974 Pinto and I get GREAT gas mi--KABOOM!

"noblejoanie writes:
Not to be disrespectful here, but it beggars belief to hear UAW members described as greedy at a time when we read about outrageous multibillion dollar Wall St bonuses"

Police officer "Lady, I understand you got robbed and beaten. Lots of people get robbed and beaten everyday. However, people are getting murdered out there. Since what happened to you wasn't murder, we are not going to pursue it."

"So what you are saying is that you don't believe getting robbed and beaten is a crime?"

"Well, it is not murder."

--
"Nice to know I woke up in France this morning."

Tom Servo,

Born-and-bred French are lucky. Unlike born-and-bred Americans they are more honest about their socialism. French work to live and most Americans live to work and feed Gangistan. People simply don't understand how thoroughly dopes born-and-bred Americans really are.

Jas

ERISA requires defined benefits pension to be currently funded in a trust. The trust are backed by the PGBC, which is not funded with tax payer $$$$'s, it is like the FDIC, funded by the pension plans. 401ks and other defined contribution pensions are also currently funded and kept in an individual account. Unless the PGBC fails there can’t be a government bailout of pensions.

The problem is retirement healthcare, which is not covered by ERISA and often not currently funded. The government is not likely to make good on broken promises of retirement healthcare.

The lack of universal healthcare is a drag on US industry in general, as US industry is competing against countries were employer do not pay for employee healthcare.

Assume Crash Positions! writes:
"Long Depression II or Greater Depression are so lame

How about "Longer AND Greater Depression"?

"nova,
I toured a factory that produces ALL the product they sell at Lowes and Home Depot with less than a dozen mfg workers on the floor. Most are repair guys for the machinery.

There were more front office people than mfg/warehouse people. "

I was watching one of those endless History Channel documentaries about how stuff works, and they showed a completely automated pasta factory. A huge thing; flour in one end, packaged pasta out the other. All the few people did was wander around and monitor the machines.

The thing is, almost all manufacturing can head in this direction, if we let it. It would require a different kind of society, of course. Is that necessarily a bad thing?

"Jas Jain writes:

Gangistan of America is filled with assholes, Crooks and evildoers. If you are not one you are thrown out into Dopeland of America."

And why are you still here?

Wes:

it helps if you put a little Scotch in that piss...just my opinion.

A trip down the memory lane (in a forum where Sebastian and I participated)…
-x-x-x-x-x-x-
December 2006

[another poster]: Like everyone else here - I guess - am learning a lot from Seb.

You guess, eh? Ignorance, like misery, loves company.

Have a GREAT 2007, my man;-).

You will need all the best wishes, Seb, so here you have mine too –

Best wishes for being able to discern Propaganda from facts. When you are in overwhelming agreement with promoters who crowd CNBC you should know what the truth is likely to be.

Enlightenment to all!

Jas

cd said: "I know you like these bailouts and have since they started..."

Not at all, but when the water's coming over the top of the levees the options are almost non-existent and sitting idly by and doing nothing isn't among them. The majority of the comments here are jeering at and making crude jokes about the people who are filling the sandbags and trying to stop the flood, which is actually pretty offensive considering what's happening.

Sebastia

It would require a different kind of society, of course. Is that necessarily a bad thing?
Bob Dobbs | Homepage | 12.19.08 - 11:53 am

Yes, what do the rest of the people do? Stand outside the pasta factory and hope one of the workers inside dies?

"Elvis, you should think about organizing a union where you work, then you could stop being so envious of union workers. Seriously you owe it to yourself and your family.
will"

"Daddy, why don't you have job anymore."

"The car company was losing money hand over fist."

"So what did you do to help?"

"We demand higher wages and made them hire more people to pick up our cigarette butts and other trash, because the union negotiated cleaning up after ourselves out of our job descriptions."

"Daddy, management sucks."

"I know, honey."

I think I am just going to hang out on CR all day and whine and gripe about everything.

Wesley Gripes | 12.19.08 - 11:40 am

Hey wesley, the IRS said they want their back taxes ...now.

I don't think retirees of bankrupt companies should eat from the taxpayer trough. Not without a massive haircut.
Gavshire Hathaway | 12.19.08 - 11:27 am | #
It serves those retirees right for choosing a bad company to work for!!

We have been looted already

Do we let the looting to continue?

Elvis,

Consider.

Bankers don't need a union. One, they are a cartel. Two, they have the Fed, Treasury and CONgress as their advocates.

If you want to maintain the peace, you have to share the wealth. Spread some cheer. Somehow, CEOs and wall street lost sight of this fact.

Alternatively, we can let them eat cake.

Elvis | 12.19.08 - 12:03 pm | #

Elvis, you apparently haven't been paying attention to what e.g., Ford has been saying.

You are way off base.

Hoop, ROFL! So true!

Good point. They should have worked for an incompetent bank that knows how to get a proper bailout.
Angry Saver | 12.19.08 - 12:10 pm | #

Plus why wait for pensions when you can get a big bonus today? Treasury ♥s bankers.

bgates | 12.19.08 - 12:18 pm

The quote was from the movie Platoon.

It's working for me. In many ways.
Angry Saver | 12.19.08 - 12:20 pm | #

I'm guessing I'm going to be doing a lot more fishing next year myself. What's the point in working for somebody else's bonus or pension?

Never underestimate the power of hate and anger to get things done.

Elvis,

I'm against the auto bailouts too. But after the looting by the banks, I do sympathize with the plight of those that are struggling.

Bailing out rich people at the expense of the middle class is a disgrace. I'm ashamed.

dryfly | 12.19.08 - 12:21 pm

It that really all that bad? For me heaven would be a small boat (16 ft), a rod, my dog, a cooler, and plenty of time.

If you were Honda or Toyota wouldn't you be thrilled to compete with the morons in DC?

I want me one of those cars built by retards that can't compete.

Thomas Jefferson Quotes:

To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson

In light of the present financial crisis, it's interesting to read what Thomas Jefferson said in 1802:
'I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.'

When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe.
Thomas Jefferson

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world.
Thomas Jefferson

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.
Thomas Jefferson

I am a big admirer of Thomas Jefferson and I think that Hamilton was and agent of the moneybags of London. Born-and-bred American dopes have ignored all warnings against bankers from their best leaders in the past (before 1913).

Jas

Apparatchik Zackattack, can you give us a breakdown on the cost per car of all the compensation and bonuses given out to the executives?

this has been a worse year than 1945 for their profitability.
bgates | 12.19.08 - 12:26 pm

that does not resonate here like I bet it does in Tokyo....

"But after the looting by the banks, I do sympathize with the plight of those that are struggling."

Understandable. But, now the bailouts are becoming a slippery slope argument for any additional bailout. "They got it, so we should." Sometimes you just have to go cold turkey. No way to stop a majority of people getting screwed, but we have to stop the bailouts.

What is going on with this market?

We just had a nice rally going on this morning!

This sucks.

Wesley,

Jas profits from his knowledge, as have some others on this site- Dopes just pay and pay and pay. And Dopes in America make up the vast majority of the people. Jas's up-front-attitude even occasionally gets under my American skin, but only a complete fool would not recognize that he is correct about our collective stupidity- something that is reinforced on a daily basis now considering the never ending stream of shit coming out of Washington.

--
"Yes, Thomas J. was the man ( that owned slaves)"

LUCKY SLAVES!

Today's born-and-bred American dopes don't admit to their economic slavery to BFNYC. Dopes in denial!

Jas

Thx. This is what I did with my time this morning while waiting for the rental car to arrive.

Apparatchik Zackattack | Homepage | 12.19.08 - 12:37 pm

Thanks from me too. Funny you said that about rental cars- isn't that one of the fundamental problems here? Rental car agencies used to be owned by the car mfgs, and send huge numbers of cars their way. Remember when Taurus and Camry were fighting out #1 car (in sales number) some years back and Ford just built and 'sold' a whole crapload of Tauruses to their rental car agency? No wonder the volume for the American mfgs is cut in half.

--
From last thread on Jefferson (one of my heroes) and slaves...

"Tell that to a 4th or 5th generation black person."

Wesley Gripes,

You tell them. To me, they (Jefferson's slaves' descendents) are the luckiest sons of bitches on the planet. Today, American blacks don’t have much to complain about. Complaining should come from white Christian men, who once were the masters of America and now have to lie down on their back and take it. Not very comfortable, I suppose.

Jas

The other is 'Ami' - which is either affectionate or derogatory,
rent_to_own | 12.19.08 - 12:55 pm | #

Interesting way of looking at it.  Originally was an endearing term adapted from the French "ami" after WWII.  However, as time went along and the U.S. started to be seen in a far less benevolent light, starting especially with Vietnam, the South American interferences and then later Iraq, the term got quite a bit more conflicted. 

So whatever happened to the auto bailout being illegal because the TARP legislation specifically says that only financial institutions are eligible?

Does legality just not matter anymore?

I think we are on to something... let the bankers work hard to pay off the deficits.
dryfly | 12.19.08 - 1:12 pm | #

I'm already on that track.  Retired this last summer and moved to a place where I can bike to some decent trout fishing, and within an hour's drive of some excellent places.   Doing my best to force Orvis to make good on that 25-year all-risk warranty on my rod.  Tie up a dozen or two new flies most days now that it's cold.

I stopped doing business with any bank that took bailout money.  And i will not be gracing a GM or Chrysler lot with my shadow, either.  They only get to rob me once.

cd

Can someone tell me why I'm getting:

"We're sorry...

... but your query looks similar to automated requests from a computer virus or spyware application. To protect our users, we can't process your request right now. "

when I try to go to any Blogspot site?