The most significant causes of the credit crisis were innovation in mortgage securitization coupled with almost no regulatory oversight (because of ideologues who opposed oversight and regulation).
I believe something about interest rates and leverage might have been involved, too...
The most significant causes of the credit crisis were innovation in mortgage securitization coupled with almost no regulatory oversight (because of ideologues who opposed oversight and regulation).
I believe something about interest rates and leverage might have been involved, too... \t Nemo Nemo | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 4:53 pm | #
Thats a poor excuse, do they not have the internet at the whitehouse. I seen it coming via a few websites and I'm no global economic mastermind....maybe they thought this was the bubble that didn't burst
The most significant causes of the credit crisis were innovation in mortgage securitization coupled with almost no regulatory oversight (because of ideologues who opposed oversight and regulation).
Ask any first time buyer in the UK, they haven't been able to afford a house on a 3.5 multiple on an average salary since 2003...bet they saw it coming.
I can't stop thinking about this statement from an interview with President Bush published in this weekend's WSJ.
[President Bush] doesn't believe change requires an ideological shift, but rather "new faces, new voices, fresh energy" that take "the same basic philosophy -- lower taxes, strong national defense, a belief in a responsibility era."
Now, the WH is saying that the current mess was caused by the flow of foreign funds into the US. Is that the kind of responsibility he was talking about?
It makes everybody feel better when you say that "nobody could have known." It removes ugliness like blame, fault and malicious incompetence and pushes it into the ether of the Universe. We are all just helpless humans, and certainly nobody would try to game the system for millions/billions. Honestly !
Other phraseology like this:
There was nothing anybody could have done.
These things happen.
It was out of anybody's control.
Nobody could have know it would come to this.
Some things are just unknowable.
Physicians say these things all the time, and it's a purposeful effort to lend gravitas and wisdow at a time when they really mean, "I don't have the first clue what I"m doing"
Even if it were true that cheap money from abroad was the root of the problem, the White House still has no excuse. It's not like that is news either.
If they thought cheap money from abroad was the problem, why did they wait over 7 years to do something about it?
Just a transparent attempt to muddy the waters. It may work to help keep the administration officials on wingnut welfare, because the right-wing echo chamber is eager to spout their excuses even when they're nonsense (e.g., blame Fannie and Freddie) and a lot of people will listen to them to deny reality.
They would rather be thought of as idiots than liars or crooks.
A year ago while looking into buying US Savings Bonds for a relative I noticed that the maximum amount an individual could purchase in one year went from $35,000 to $5000.
Seems like "somebody" in the US Department of Treasury wanted to turn a fire exit in the crowded theater into a keyhole.
wasn't there something in the seventies about petrodollars being cycled into risky foreign loans that somehow makes the "cheap money" flows precedented? this time risky domestic loans were made
So they didn't see it coming, but that's alright because no one else did. Except for those that did. But at any rate, none of their policies contributed to the problem, and they were under no obligation to see it coming or prepare for the eventuality.
Can I get a great big group Hoocoodanode! The answer is, of course, anyone that didn't have their head firmly inserted in their asses, which discounts most of our elected officials and apparently all of WallStreet.
With all due respect to the wisened minds here, the bubble could not have inflated without people actually buying those unregulated, securitized mortgages. There is no question that once domestic demand was met, foreign capital was used to inflate the bubble to even larger proportions than was possible using only domestic funding.
Bush isn't telling the whole story, but neither is the NYT.
I could never figure out how Greenspin and the other assorted clowns could keep straight faces whilst chatting about this "influx of excessive foreign savings" and damn near in the next sentence selling to the gullible CNBC types how the next lowering of interest rates was going to help the economy.
If there was money flooding into the country then why would you need to lower the prime? Nobody ever asked.
"For example, the President highlighted a factor that economists agree on: that the most significant factor leading to the housing crisis was cheap money flowing into the U.S. from the rest of the world..."
Those damn dirty Commies trying to destroy Capitalism by sending us all their money! Wait, what...?
To use your brilliant locution, CR, "uh, no." The problem wasn't creative securitizations; the problem was the bad debt that was securitized. And that was called into being by left-liberal ideologues.
You place blame on the second-order cause. You should be placing blame on the first-order cause: the Dems' Community Reinvestment Act and its many cousins.
Lefties divvying up government favors in order to "do good" while -- not coincidentally -- helping their donors. That was the cause.
without people actually buying those unregulated, securitized mortgages.
Well they were kindof screwed in the biggest bubble zones: that's where the jobs mostly were, so they got stuck bidding against their co-workers. Hell most of the job expansion of the entire Bush era seemed to be in Washington DC and No. Va.
" Nude writes:
With all due respect to the wisened minds here, the bubble could not have inflated without people actually buying those unregulated, securitized mortgages. There is no question that once domestic demand was met, foreign capital was used to inflate the bubble to even larger proportions than was possible using only domestic funding.
Bush isn't telling the whole story, but neither is the NYT.
Nude | 12.22.08 - 5:08 pm | # "
The real story is greed. Unrestrained, unregulated greed, to the point where money managers' own greed trumped their duty as stewards to the people who'd entrusted them with funds.
If the NYT isn't telling the whole story, it's because -- as somebody said above -- it's too corporate. Doesn't want to get the other guys at the country club angry.
They just didn't see it blowing up on their watch.
Obama is going to be saying the same thing when he has to tell the boomer's to forget SS and Medicare.
Speculation was definitely the case here in San Diego region. In my little coastal town it was flippers from Florida who thought they could do quick fix-ups and flip again. Then they discovered building codes (does Fla not have any?) and how small the actual market was unless they sold to yet another flipper.
Ah, here you are.
Was doing some read up and to my shock and horror fond this :
Pavel Chichikov writes:
From yesterday's thread, sorry, I owe Werner an apology for losing my temper.
Pavel
Pavel Chichikov | 12.21.08 - 8:30 am | #
Pavel, I have neither the slightest idea, nor can I imagine in any way that you have reason for an apology!
Even if you would say something negative, I would rather listen up and try to examine myselfs than be offended.
(Teutonic stubborness is not so easily offended : the other day someone here called me an " Fucking Idiot ". Well, a little bit harsh, but he had a perfecty good point why he said this, and so I was not offended. And you would never say such a thing, would you ?)
So, peace. And don't worry.
Why couldn't he have just said, We now have a Plutocracy, most of us can't find our ass, but we can find our way to Billions from the Arabs just as soon as I get the hell out of here. Pa taught Clinton, HeHeHe, and old slick taught me.
You should be placing blame on the first-order cause: the Dems' Community Reinvestment Act and its many cousins.
You're simply uniformed to the point of what has to be a deliberate level of total ignorance. I suggest you leave now because you shortly are going to find out in great detail from the commenters here how far you head is up your but.
And believe me, much of the shredding is going to come from people that are far from "lefty-liberals".
I had lunch with a cute banker yesterday. She mentioned that they're seeing all kinds of refinancing activity right now. I asked her "what happens when inevitably interest rates rise? Aren't you worried that you're going to be stuck with all of these mortgages locked in at artificially low rates?"
Well, apparently this isn't a problem. Banks like Wells Fargo aren't stupid. All of this paper is being immediately sold to Fannie and Freddie so taxpayers can bear the risk.
When interest rates rise, the government is going to get screwed, but the banksters are going to profit nicely, risk free, in the meantime.
I hear Russia's building a new missle called the PPT 300...never fails on delivery plus it packs multiple warheads...one for the investor up, one for the investor down and of course the one for the investor who sells to early...
yes, Nude. You are so right. Those people who bought those unregulated, securitized loans should fire their incompetent risk assessment managers IMMEDIATELY!
Jas and Marilyn both agree - We're all stars now / in the Dope Show.
Fundamentally, capitalism presumes ethical dealings based on a sound moral compass.
Since we are all human, the capitalistic model is an ideal to be strived for. We'll never get there though since we are all human and prone to errors and temptation and 'ethical lapses'.
It's a race to the bottom! First, the tabloids took the lead, but the NYT pulls ahead!
What a waste of trees.
Hysterian | 12.22.08 - 5:08 pm | #
The NYT article was not that bad, to much emphisis on FNM/FRE, not enough on the mortgage brokers but overall I have seen far worse articles on the subject.
"You should be placing blame on the first-order cause: the Dems' Community Reinvestment Act and its many cousins."
The CRA was just another ineffective unnecessary policy until the demand for MBS went through the roof, I don't see a causal arrow there. Greed and fraud have no political affiliatio
Sports Guy Lafleur writes:
It makes everybody feel better when you say that "nobody could have known." It removes ugliness like blame, fault and malicious incompetence and pushes it into the ether of the Universe.
Oh, come on. You're just paying the "blame game", which is something only the Little People care about --and no one listens to them. Stop your whining so the People Who Matter can get back to lavishly rewarding themselves and looting your children's future.
well, sure, Elliot Spitzer saw it, but we shut down his regulatory efforts, and then, when he ratted us out in the Post and we brought to bear the full power of our multibillion-dollar NSA technical sources and methods and caught him with a bignosed Jersey whore, after that nobody saw anything coming. So any of you pissants notice anything strange?
Lefties divvying up government favors in order to "do good" while -- not coincidentally -- helping their donors. That was the cause.
Joe Malchow | 12.22.08 - 5:14 pm | #
Asschow is more like it. Never let facts ruin a good Rush Limbaugh monologue!
I blame, in order, the following people:
Alan Greenspan
George W. Bush
jg and bearly (tie)
Kidding, I was kidding . . . but not about Asschow.
Well, since we are discussing causes, we have to ask: "which came first, the chicken or the egg?"
Historically low interest rates cause money to reach for yield. And there is a saying on Wall Street about feeding the ducks when they quack. So does it make sense to argue that the massive expansion of high yielding synthetic instruments was the cause of cheap money? Or could cheap money have caused the pressure to create massive quantities of bogus debt instruments? And that the necessary raw material to create those instruments was obtained by essentially eliminating lending standards?
I suppose a faithful analysis is dependent upon the meaning of ' hypocritical rat-bastard nancy capitalists that thought they could inflate their way out of the business cycle and now are redistirbuting your children's welath to bailout rich folks' speculative bets in a caligula-like flame out of the bankrupt ideology of the rich'.
"Nude wrote:
With all due respect to the wisened minds here, the bubble could not have inflated without people actually buying those unregulated, securitized mortgages. There is no question that once domestic demand was met, foreign capital was used to inflate the bubble to even larger proportions than was possible using only domestic funding."
With all due respect - this is blaming the fraud victims and bagholders for being pulled over the table. Foreigners were buyers becaused they saved and because the knew less.
"W" said something like, "I've never been anything more than a pit bull tugging on the pant leg of opportunity." He's surprisingly candid at times, like, "This sucker could go down," and "The market's a house of cards," and "Wall Street got drunk."
was in downtown san francisco, westfield-union sq. midday Sunday...crowded but only stores with lines were the one with heavy discounts
all the smart men shoppers seemed to at Victorias Secret...
My 09 prediction..Divorce rates will go down...partner up now or be left holding the bag...new theme for wedding planners...marriage never goes down...
Presidio Golf Course October 2002. Golf with a new aquantence(mortgage broker)
tells about i/o's. I said , but those are pro loans, not for every day people.
"This won't end well" said that day.
The world was awash in liquidity. That was the impetus for the credit expansion.
Greenspan's easy money policies combined with ever-present greed drove this bubble.
The mortgage innovations predated the bubble. The use of these innovative products grew during the 90s and into the latest bubble. The products were no so new. But the insatiable demand for a few bps of additional yield removed all care and diligence. Greed!
The most significant factor in this crissi was greenspan rate policy coupled with Rubin strong dollar policy. Everything else was derivative. Root and branch.
while it is easy and handy to blame the runaway mortgage market on "ideologues who opposed oversight and regulation" the real truth is all interested parties were doing what they should based on their 'interests'. The Senate banking commitee (controlled by Democrats) refused to allow limits on FNMA out for a vote. Disasters like this happen when all parties are headed down the same highway and over the cliff - it is called Collusion = big business, big govt and big Labor (homeowners).
Nov. 25 (Bloomberg) -- James Grant, the vigilant editor of Grants Interest Rate Observer, is nothing if not prescient.
The CDO machine, he writes, resembles some giant monetary snowblower, scattering dollar bills into the open hands of underwriters, investment banks, investment managers and rating agencies.
What are CDOs, you ask? Stacks of debts, Grant says in his martini-dry voice. Debts on the asset side of the balance sheet, debts on the liabilities side. They resemble banks without walls -- or depositors or regulators.
And who, by the way, buys asset-backed securities? Yield pigs, Grant replies.
Posted by Anonymous Monetarist
gw writes:
"Nude wrote:
With all due respect to the wisened minds here, the bubble could not have inflated without people actually buying those unregulated, securitized mortgages. There is no question that once domestic demand was met, foreign capital was used to inflate the bubble to even larger proportions than was possible using only domestic funding."
With all due respect - this is blaming the fraud victims and bagholders for being pulled over the table. Foreigners were buyers becaused they saved and because the knew less.
gw | 12.22.08 - 5:28 pm | #
That leadership we can believe in! Blame the messenger. Our country has been run by clueless morons for 8 years, and they refuse to be accountable for any of their blunders...
Easy money - everyone wanted in on it.
So they bought homes to flip. Mortgage brokers brokered the money from lenders, who sold it out the back door to investors, who were so anxious for a few extra bps of yield that they ignored/underestimated the risk. Eventually, like all bubbles, it fell from its own weight.
Lots of mistakes were made by borrowers, lenders, regulators etc. But, none of this could have happened without excessive liquidity.
Thank you Alan Greenspan.
Perhaps a better approach is for the Administration is to take ownership for their part in the disaster.
In this age, the buck always stops somewhere else. Well rounded debate seems impossible with everyone pitching themselves in the most positive light while ignoring reasonable concerns.
To you CR -
I have commented on numerous occasions that the buyers of this crap paper are the real culprits. We live in a caveat emptor society! The thought of having to protect a highly compensated buyer from Wall Street scam artists pushing an attractively packaged scam is ridiculous. Scam artists exist, in whatever form, as long as an available mark is around to fall for the scam.
BTW - All those idiot buyers had to do was read this blog to discover the scam and their incompetence. I wonder how many buyers knew they were buying a scam.
You should be placing blame on the first-order cause: the Dems' Community Reinvestment Act and its many cousins.
Except for the minor detail that banks loaning under CRA had better default rates than other banks. And Fannie and Freddie had one-seventh the default rate of other lenders.
But you can blame Bush for blocking numerous state investigations of the criminal lending that was a big part of the mess.
crispy&cole writes:
Karl Rove spin tactics don't work in the age of the internet...sorry Bush your legacy is shit!
crispy&cole | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 5:21 pm | #
A decade of a steadily increasing trade deficit sent dollars abroad--dollars that had traditionally been invested primarily in treasurys.
Then treasurys went to ~1%, and MBS's provided the ability to invest in residential US real estate at greater than 5% became available. US real estate never goes down, so why not?
Surely there were failures in regulation and ethics that fanned the flames, but without the growing trade deficit the fuel wouldn't have been there in the first place.
Well, what do you expect from Bush?
Remorse? Guilt? A last minute injection of brain cells?
People have been selling and securitizing loans for a long time. It led to an immediate drop in quality when I observed the change from holding to selling in the mid-80s. But there was still value there.
The most amazing thing was the 100% loans divided into 80-20, to avoid mtg insurance. When I heard that lenders were offering this, I was amazed.
Seems to me that the purchases of securitized 2nd loans had no brains whatsoever, and I refuse to regard them as victims. The 80% purchasers who are losing their shirts, I can dredge up some sympathy for.
Krugman got the Nobel Prize in economics and Mish is currently aiming for the same honor in biology. Please head over to his site and check out the groundbreaking contribution on Fiscal Insanity Virus (FIV). He finally found the root cause.
The Senate banking commitee (controlled by Democrats) refused to allow limits on FNMA out for a vote.
And a good thing they did, too. As I mentioned above, Fannie and Freddie have 1/7 the default rate of the rest of the mortgage business. If everything had gone through the GSEs we would never have gotten nearly as deep.
When the assessment and pricing of risk is performed by someone who's only stake in the outcome is a % commission on the gross value of the transaction, one should expect faulty implementation of the underwriting standards.
Only a fool would expect otherwise.
And many fools did.
Here is someone who knew. Read the date, then the words, then the date again.
THE RICHEBÄCHER LETTER
NOVEMBER 2002
In the face of slumping stock prices, the new consumer borrowing and spending binge received its most
recent impetus from the coincidence of three events: (1) a surge in house prices, (2) a sharp fall in mortgage
rates, and (3) very aggressive lending activity by the mortgage system. It delivered another temporary boost to
GDP growth, but this boost was definitely not qualified to sow the seeds for sustained, self-reinforcing recovery.
Was it another bubble? Of course it was. On closer look, it resulted from a sequence of three bubbles
first, the Treasury bond bubble; second, the house bubble; and third, the consumer borrowing and spending
bubble...
In his Jackson Hole, Wyo., speech, Mr. Greenspan reiterated his familiar viewpoint that it is difficult to
definitely identify a bubble until after the fact that is, when its bursting confirms its existence. Rubbish. The
bubble was as apparent to everybody as the emperor without clothes.
I have commented on numerous occasions that the buyers of this crap paper are the real culprits. We live in a caveat emptor society! The thought of having to protect a highly compensated buyer from Wall Street scam artists pushing an attractively packaged scam is ridiculous. Scam artists exist, in whatever form, as long as an available mark is around to fall for the scam. Allen C | 12.22.08 - 5:37 pm | #
The real culprit are the people who will not force the buyers to take the loss. Namely the FED and the Treasury. Deregulation doesn't work if people don't take a loss on their investments.
But given that the Chinese/Japanese/Russians/middle-east were the biggest buyers of the crap we peddled we don't want to piss them off.
As always it comes down to "there is no free lunch" Now we get to pay as a society for living beyond our means for the last 30 years.
Our financial system falls apart fast if we force foreign debt buyers to take a haircut. Or our financial system falls apart slow if we bail them out.
"" Anonymous writes:
They just didn't see it blowing up on their watch.
Obama is going to be saying the same thing when he has to tell the boomer's to forget SS and Medicare.
Anonymous | 12.22.08 - 5:15 pm | # "
That will never happen. Never. Neither will America devolve into Road Warrior Nation, nor mass starvation rule the land, nor any other dire apocalyptic scenario.
Because -- we are a nation of vast resources. And whatever rules or understandings stand in the way of deploying those resources to stop mass poverty among the middle classes will be put aside or suspended. To do anything else would destabilize society.
You might or might not like the nation that comes out the other side of this process. But that's another story.
Hysterian writes: What a waste of trees. Hysterian | 12.22.08 - 5:08 pm | # --- Agreed. Isn't/Wasn't there an editor who read this story and said, "It is utter crap. I'd rather track down Madoff's old Pre-K teacher and quiz her if she foresaw his future betray. If she was dead, then interview a psychic who claims to be able to channel her.
Seriously, I don't want to hear/read any of Dubya's dribble any longer. I don't want to hear from the WH PR staff any longer. No, you really are that irrelevant. buh-bye now. Excuse us as we try to put our society back together again...
If I borrow $10,000 from the bank and cant pay it back...that's my problem and I will have to deal with it. If the bank lends me 1,000,000 and I cant pay it back....that's their problem, and now the banking system is having to deal with it.
Ya, it was the community reinvestment act and that bill that Clinton passed that made the banks loan to everyone that came through the door. Yea thats it. It's the leftys fault. Those bleeding hearts.
If the banks have to loan to everyone, why aren't they making loans?
Carter left office knowing he was a loser.... comrade swan | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 5:46 pm | #
I was always under the impression that Carter proved that you can't govern the US and tell people the truth. Americans have an incessant need to be told that sunshine reigns supreme, oil will last forever and living within your means is for losers.
My vote for the underlying cause - An insolvent USA. With a chronic budget & trade deficit, negative wage gains & negative personal savings rate the only way to rig the system to make it look prosperous is cheating.
" lawyerliz writes:
......
People have been selling and securitizing loans for a long time. It led to an immediate drop in quality when I observed the change from holding to selling in the mid-80s. But there was still value there.
The most amazing thing was the 100% loans divided into 80-20, to avoid mtg insurance. When I heard that lenders were offering this, I was amazed.
Seems to me that the purchases of securitized 2nd loans had no brains whatsoever, and I refuse to regard them as victims. The 80% purchasers who are losing their shirts, I can dredge up some sympathy for.
lawyerliz | 12.22.08 - 5:41 pm | # "
Dear LawyerLiz,
Why can't the gubmint go after these folks on the RICO statutes? It seems as though some of these goings on must be able to trigger RICO. Your thoughts?
"Why would anyone give the statements by Dana Perino or her boss any more credience than one gives to the babblings of a bag lady?"
There's an outside chance the bag lady may have something useful or truthful to say...bush and his talking parrakeet Perino are neither useful nor honest.
worst president and most fraudulent admin in American history...beating Warren G. Harding to the bottom.
"
I was always under the impression that Carter proved that you can't govern the US and tell people the truth. Americans have an incessant need to be told that sunshine reigns supreme, oil will last forever and living within your means is for losers.
Pissed Off In California | 12.22.08 - 5:49 pm | # "
You can argue whether or not America was ready to hear but. But in truth, Carter was a lousy salesman. He couldn't even control his Democratic congress that well.
Knowing the truth and knowing what to do with it -- two different matters.
Our moronic President didn't see much of anything in time, including the disaster in Iraq, the stupidity of Afghanistan, etc., etc., etc., etc. ad infinitum. Oh and he didn't see the Katrina disaster either. Not even when they flew him down to see it.
If I borrow $10,000 from the bank and cant pay it back...that's my problem and I will have to deal with it. If the bank lends me 1,000,000 and I cant pay it back....that's their problem, and now the banking system is having to deal with it.
C'mon Louie, how did the bank know you wanted $1,000,000?
Deadbeat borrowers walked into banks and asked for money, promised to pay it back, and now are failing to follow up on their agreements.
Pissed Off in Cali, you got that right. I'm in the middle of being told on another forum that I'm a doom and gloomer and I'm bringing all things bad on myself by not seeing all the good things we have. The usual, we're number one, rah rah, pom pom BS. They can't seem to process the information I provide and realize "Hey, maybe it would be a good idea to stock up on some supplies and cash"...Instead they play shoot the messenger...
How old are you? Do you remember the Carter years?
xxxxx | 12.22.08 - 5:42 pm | #
I'm 50, and Bush has Carter beat by a mile, not old enough to judge vs. Jimmy Buchanan, but suspect he is the only real compitition. I am a bit of a history buff, and while other presidents mess up in a single dimension, Bush screwed up in so many ways that you need string theory to get to all the dimensions
tyler, if your my neighbor and want to borrow my hammer, you better give it back when your done....if instead I say here are the keys to my house...it's my fault to have done that by being stupid!
Pissed Off in Cali, you got that right. I'm in the middle of being told on another forum that I'm a doom and gloomer and I'm bringing all things bad on myself by not seeing all the good things we have. The usual, we're number one, rah rah, pom pom BS. They can't seem to process the information I provide and realize "Hey, maybe it would be a good idea to stock up on some supplies and cash"...Instead they play shoot the messenger... Comrade Kristina | 12.22.08 - 5:52 pm | #
Funny isn't it how attempting to see the truth seems to create a smaller group of acquaintances no matter the situation. Man I'm lucky my wife is open to seeing the truth else I'd REALLY be screwed.
At work I don't even say anything anymore since everything I've laid out has come to pass. Unfortunately you can't force people to see reality and prepare for it. Denial seems to be a very strong coping strategy.
Pissed, yep, my social circle is more like a small arc now. My customers at the bar remark occassionally about how I've been right about everything so far BUT, surely it won't get as bad as I'm saying it will...go figure...
The Treasury's inspector general has opened up a formal probe of the Office of Thrift Supervision in connection with a backdated capital infusion into IndyMac Bancorp weeks before its collapse in July.
And the hits keep coming. I smell a conjure clock update...,
I'm 50, and Bush has Carter beat by a mile, ......
Dirk van Dijk | 12.22.08 - 5:53 pm | # "
Wrong! Carter managed to bungle up most of our foreign policy, giving away the Panama Canal, the Iran Hostage Crisis, etc. Despite what you liberals and your minions in the MSM say, the beginnings of the S&L crisis occurred under Carter, and were a direct results of the policies pursued by his administration. If you can't see and appreciate how bad he was, I really just don't know what to say. Every time that clown gets on TV or radio and starts talking about how bad Bush is, I get the urge to ring his scrawny neck, and I know that's the same way a lot (I'd venture to guess most) veterans like myself feel.
There aren't enough jail cells to hold everybody, unless you let the dopers out, which you should.
Seriously, this kind of fraud is extremely difficult to prove.
I couldn't get the locals to prosecute in a case of clear fraud on a deed.
They are prosecuting a few in Miami-Dade, I still have contacts in the econmic crimes dept; but it is a drop in the ocean of fraud, and Florida is cutting money for the Courts, prosecutors and public defenders--crazy, no?
Plantagenet writes: And if they steal another $350B in the next 4 weeks? Venal, yes, but hardly irrelevant. Plantagenet | 12.22.08 - 5:50 pm | # --- And if they don't? In my personal finances, I've already "priced in" the last run(s) on the tax payers' dime, and I've already "priced in" how little/nothing is going to be done about it. Until Huncle Sam is sending all of us 50+k checks to buy stuff, I don't really see the velocity of money picking up between now and Jan. 20, 2009. Heck, I don't see it moving any faster before March 31, 2009. By then, Dubya will be gone, and the Financial Crater left in his wake will make the crater left by the axe of Paul Banyan look tame.
Seriously, Dubya's words mean nothing to me just like Kash-n-Karry's testimony means nothing to me. We have foxes in the hen house, and sans some kind of all-reaching clawback punishment ala Pinochet playing out, he is good as gone. Most everything written for TV or Paper Media is utter garbage if it is quoting politicos in the Heat of a Political Firestorm--if we aren't still in the pre-warming phase.
Why aren't there any criminal investigations of the deadbeat borrowers?
Because it's pointless. Each borrower borrowed once to a few times. Each brokerage company sold thousands of loans. Plus, no matter how many borrowers you prosecuted, the brokerage company would always find marks (most borrowers did not understand what was going). Stop the brokers, stop the fraud.
Oh, and even this psychotically prison-crazy country couldn't lock them all up. You want to lock up 30% of the population of San Diego county?
When somebody runs a credit card scam setting up credit cards for homeless people who do you prosecute? The street people? The clue express is in the station; get aboard.
Wrong! Carter managed to bungle up most of our foreign policy, giving away the Panama Canal, the Iran Hostage Crisis, xxxxx | 12.22.08 - 6:01 pm | #
By Iran Contra Crisis, do you mean the one that had that little related illegal arms deal that delayed releasing the hostages until after Carter left office?
Carter may have sucked as a president. But I admire greatly what he has tried to do with his life and legacy after he left office. Unfortunately I have a strong feeling Bush will suck in office and out of office legacy wise.
To all the "veterans" out there talking about liberal media this, liberal media that, let's look at the facts: the only other year that the market got cut in half was 1931. That's right, there was only one other year in history when the market took as big a loss than in 2008. Yes, Carter was a complete nimrod. But Bush has got him beat. Only President in history to serve during two recessions--let that sink in a bit. Liberal and Conservative alike we've had our share of complete idiots over the past 75 years, but Bush and this Congress takes the cake.
Caterpillar Inc. announced plans Monday for a raft of pay cuts as growth has weakened in emerging markets that had helped double revenues over the past five years.
The U.S.-based heavy-equipment maker said it will cut executive compensation by as much as 50% and offer voluntary buyouts to 25,000 "management and support" employees, who also face more-modest pay cuts.
You're simply uniformed to the point of what has to be a deliberate level of total ignorance.<
I would go so far as to such willful misinformation and propaganda. In other words, traitorous partisan behavior that would rather score points by blaming the other side than disseminating the truth.
Every time that clown gets on TV or radio and starts talking about how bad Bush is, I get the urge to ring his scrawny neck, and I know that's the same way a lot (I'd venture to guess most) veterans like myself feel.
xxxxx | 12.22.08 - 6:01 pm | #
Ah yes.
It's really about the draft dodger pardon isn't it?
By Binyamin Appelbaum Washington Post Staff Writer Monday, December 22, 2008; 3:24 PM
A senior federal banking regulator has been removed from his job after government investigators concluded that he knowingly permitted IndyMac Bancorp to present a misleading picture of its financial health in a federal filing only months before the California thrift was seized by regulators.
The Office of Thrift Supervision removed Darrel Dochow as director of its western region, where he was responsible for regulating several of the largest banks that failed or were sold in the past year, including Washington Mutual, Countrywide Financial, IndyMac and Downey Savings and Loan.
Dochow allowed IndyMac to count money it got in May in a report describing its financial condition at the end of March, according to an investigation by the Treasury Department's inspector general, Eric Thorson, which was described in a letter from Thorson.
Thorson wrote that OTS, one of four federal agencies that regulates banks, allowed other companies that it oversees to perform a similar legerdemain, though he did not name those companies. ad_icon
Dochow did not immediately respond to requests for comments.
An OTS spokesman did not immediately return a call or an e-mail. In a letter to the inspector general, the head of OTS, John Reich, described Dochow's actions as a "relatively small factor in the events leading to the failure of IndyMac." Reich said he had assigned Dochow to work on "special projects and administrative issues" while Thorson completes his investigation.
XXXX
How many of the hostages died? How many U.S. soldiers have died in Iraq? Panama canal is still operating, and overall our relationship with Latin America has been pretty good since (although Bush has certianly screwed it up a bit). Not saying he belongs on Rushmore, but relative to W he is Abe friggin Lincoln.
S&L crisis, seems to me the jump in FDIC insurance to $100K happened unde RR, the lax oversight of the S&L's happened under RR and GHWB, big streatch to blame that on Carter.
NoVaWatcher writes:
""You're simply uniformed to the point of what has to be a deliberate level of total ignorance.""
"I would go so far as to such willful misinformation and propaganda. In other words, traitorous partisan behavior that would rather score points by blaming the other side than disseminating the truth."
Quoted because it is the truth. Divide and conquer, all over again.
" lawyerliz writes:
There aren't enough jail cells to hold everybody, unless you let the dopers out, which you should.
Seriously, this kind of fraud is extremely difficult to prove.
....
They are prosecuting a few in Miami-Dade, ...crazy, no?
lawyerliz | 12.22.08 - 6:03 pm | # "
From Wikipedia:
Under the law, racketeering activity means:
* Any violation of state statutes against gambling,
* Any act of bribery, counterfeiting, theft, embezzlement, fraud, dealing in obscene matter, obstruction of justice, slavery, racketeering, gambling, money laundering, commission of murder-for-hire, and several other offenses covered under the Federal criminal code (Title 18);
* Embezzlement of union funds;
* Bankruptcy or securities fraud;
* Drug trafficking;
* Money laundering and related offenses;
* Bringing in, aiding or assisting aliens in illegally entering the country (if the action was for financial gain);
* Acts of terrorism.
It seems that for some of these, particularly Bankruptcy or securities fraud, it should be possible to indict, and once that's done, all assets could be frozen (again, according to Wikipedia). We're not talking about everyone who's failed to make a payment; it's likely that defaulting homeowners have only violated one of the above mentioned, and would not qualify for RICO, but I'd think that AIG manages that took +400k of Govt. funds for spa's, etc., probably violated one other of the above, and could be indicted. Once indicted, ALL of their assets could be frozen and made unavailable to them, and they wouldn't be able to mount extravagant defenses.
Carter's tenure was a failed presidency in many ways. As an individual he is impressive, is due respect, and has conducted himself with dignity and aplomb.
If George wasn't born on third base he would be a mid-level manager snapping towels at the waitresses in Applebee's every evening.
FUN FACT : His secret service handle when daddy was ambassador? TUMBLER
There is so much blame to go around, I don't lay all the blame on securitization and oversight. I would add: excessive leaverage, rating agencies, the agency problem, an effective monopoly of private mortgage insurance by a couple of giant companies, speculation, credit default swaps (I still don't understand the purpose of these), mindless institutional buyers, lazy attorneys, greedy stock option driven wall street types, and governmental regulations and special interest groups that pressured lenders to make sub prime loans to sub prime people. They can all share some of the blame. The solution: reduce leverage, prosecute fraud, lending guidelines based primarily upon equity postion, break up the big dysfunctional national lenders and PMI companies into much smaller entiites.
As a fellow airchair student of history, as well as, an avid reader of presidential bios, and graduating with a BA in history, I have to say that this president is the bottom three of all time.
Before, anyone goes political on me, keep in mind I voted for Bush I, Clinton, Nader, P. Buchanan, and Bush 2 (twice, my bad, I know, I thought lesser of two evils), so I am all over the map, and yes, I am independent.
Despite all the tin foil cospiracy surrounding Buch II, I think the real problem is that he intellectually and emotionally isn't fit for the job.
Look at how he acts. Always cavalier and like a cowboy.
"My way or the door is there for you." He is a president, not a dictator. Also, the secrecy of this administration is beyond words. I wouldn't trust this admin to watch my roll of pennies for an hour.
"Why aren't there any criminal investigations of the deadbeat borrowers?
They walked out of banks with money they agreed to pay back, and now they aren't making good on their agreement.
Tyler"
You're in over your head. They agreed to make the loan payments or the bank would take the house back. That was the deal and that is what is happening now.
Tanta is letting out a heavenly 'tsk tsk' on this one: Regulator Let IndyMac Backdate Capital, Watchdog Says (Update1) - Bloomberg.com
Regulator Let IndyMac Backdate Capital, Treasury Says
IndyMac Banks U.S. regulator allowed the lender to backdate a capital infusion from its holding company to let the mortgage lender maintain well-capitalized status and escape regulatory sanctions, the Treasury Departments watchdog arm said today.
It is unclear what information OTS had at the time and what its basis was for allowing the capital infusion to be recorded for the quarter ending March 31, 2008, Thorson wrote to Grassley in a letter dated today. A separate inquiry as to a motive for approving and recording this transaction in the manner it was recorded is still ongoing.
comrade swan writes:
Carter's tenure was a failed presidency in many ways. As an individual he is impressive, is due respect, and has conducted himself with dignity and aplomb.
If George wasn't born on third base he would be a mid-level manager snapping towels at the waitresses in Applebee's every evening.
Comrade Swan you made my point. This guy shouldn't be doing more than changing the cooking oil at Burger Thing, er, I mean, King!
I was driving back from my Xmas shopping today and realized I've almost completely disconnnected myself from "normal" people. By "normal" I mean, those that still think things will get back to normal once the little recession thingy is over with. I almost look at them with pity now, realizing they have no idea what is about to hit them nor do they want to know...It's a pretty loney place to be...
Hoocoodanode! The answer is, of course, anyone that didn't have their head firmly inserted in their asses, which discounts most of our elected officials and apparently all of WallStreet. Comrade Kristina | 12.22.08 - 5:05 pm | #
I agree with CR 100%. Just look at Fannie and Freddie (they have more than 100 years of regulations between them) how well they are doing.
P.S. I would like to take a moment to thank those who listened to Tanta, CR, etc, and bought F&F shares. You helped me more than you will ever know. May God bless you for you are going to need it!
P.S. I would like to take a moment to thank those who listened to Tanta, CR, etc, and bought F&F shares. You helped me more than you will ever know. May God bless you for you are going to need it! Broker | 12.22.08 - 6:21 pm | #
Wow, where did CR or Tanta ever encourage anyone to buy any stock in anything? Link please.
"Only President in history to serve during two recessions--let that sink in a bit."
Actually not true, Ike had 2 as well, but they were pretty breif affairs, and the economy back then was much more prone to swings due to inventory cycles.
Ya' know, I'd forgotten all about that. One more reason I can't stand that clown.
xxxxx | 12.22.08 - 6:17 pm | #
I thought incorrectly that would have been salient in your thoughts about Carter. For other veterans I have talked to, it generates white hot hate. It clouds the overall perspective.
Carter tried and failed. Bush has actively and consciously (this is the awful thing) undermined the things I care about most about my country.
" Dirk van Dijk writes:
XXXX
How many of the hostages died? How many U.S. soldiers have died in Iraq? Panama canal is still operating, and overall our relationship with Latin America has been pretty good since (although Bush has certianly screwed it up a bit). Not saying he belongs on Rushmore, but relative to W he is Abe friggin Lincoln.
S&L crisis, seems to me the jump in FDIC insurance to $100K happened unde RR, the lax oversight of the S&L's happened under RR and GHWB, big streatch to blame that on Carter.
Dirk van Dijk | 12.22.08 - 6:11 pm | # "
You obviously weren't paying much attention in 1977-80 (or you're simply lying). S&Ls were going out business left and right during that time frame. RR boosted the deposit insurance of the FSLIC (not the FDIC) to boost confidence and avoid bank runs, and relaxed regulation to allow the S&Ls to "grow" out of their predicament that resulted from 4 years of Jimmy Carter. Again, I realize that the MSM and you liberals have been lying about this since the re-emergence of this crisis under GHWB, but what I've said here is the truth.
As for the Panama canal, didn't one of Carter's successors have to send troops into Panama to straighten the situation out down there? Rhetorical question; the answer is yes, yet another example of Carter's incompetence.
As for dead soldiers, wouldn't that criteria make Lincoln or FDR our worst President? Rhetorical question; the answer is no, and neither does it make GWB a terrible President.
Your arguments are fallacious and specious.
P.S. I would like to take a moment to thank those who listened to Tanta, CR, etc, and bought F&F shares. You helped me more than you will ever know. May God bless you for you are going to need it!
Broker | 12.22.08 - 6:21 pm | #
Wow, where did CR or Tanta ever encourage anyone to buy any stock in anything? Link please.
Max | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 6:23 pm | #
Yeah esp FNM or FRE. Saying that they were not the primary culprits in this whole mess is far from a buy rec. Also I dont think anyone here claims that the GSE's were angels, yet on the scale of depravity in this whole thing, they were far from the worst, yet since they are the only thing that the GOP can plausably attach to the democrats (along with the CRA) there is a huge cottage industry being developed to pin 95% of the blame on them.
As I mentioned above, Fannie and Freddie have 1/7 the default rate of the rest of the mortgage business. If everything had gone through the GSEs we would never have gotten nearly as deep.
Fair Economist | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 5:42 pm | #
I was with you up to here, but it seems to me if everything had gone through the GSEs they wouldn't have had such low default rates.
I was with you up to here, but it seems to me if everything had gone through the GSEs they wouldn't have had such low default rates.
Yalt | 12.22.08 - 6:30 pm | #
Or the loans would not have been made and the bubble would not have gotten so big.
And of course those "unprecedented" inflows of funds from outside were entirely precedented - cheap lending from overseas to U.S. speculators was one of the fuels for the big market bonfire in 1929, too. And thoroughly documented in the literature of the time and since.
The WH obviously didn't speak with any former FDIC examiners and investigators fired by Chairman Don Powell while Powell often proudly proclaimed "we are in a golden age of banking" during 2004 & 2005.
And to think that greed was a US phenomenon is laughable. The EU allowed so much leverage that it is indeed what kept the bubble going beyond 2002. Then the US freaked out about the so-called powerful European banks that allowing more leverage by US banks was a bipartisan effort; that kept the bubble going beyond 2004 - we forget how much jealousy there was seeing US banks being outsized by European and Asian banks and we didn't want to see more US banks swallowed up by foreigners. The ideology in that case is better-known as "penis envy".
lawyerliz writes:
People are starting to call me "prescient". Not that does me much good. I wish I knew where the high ground is.
It is that point of ground where the water no longer seeps into your shoes.
Relax everybody. They're all poor presidents. Just remember, there's no need for emotion. The winners write the history. (And yes I do remember the Carter years. I also remember the Eisenhower and Kennedy and Johnson and Ford and Nixon years. Sorry, you no more than myself.)
The quote was that "almost no one saw" which is in effect true if you consider the group statistically with their sample set as the entire US populatios.
" Red Pill writes:
Ya' know, I'd forgotten all about that. One more reason I can't stand that clown.
xxxxx | 12.22.08 - 6:17 pm | #
I thought incorrectly that would have been salient in your thoughts about Carter. For other veterans I have talked to, it generates white hot hate. It clouds the overall perspective.
...
Red Pill | 12.22.08 - 6:25 pm | # "
I'm a vet, but not a Vietnam vet, so it doesn't sting quite as badly. I was a vet during the last 2 Carter years, and the first 2 Reagan years. I was there (at West Point) the day that the hostages came back, and I saw RR address the Class of 81 the following Spring.
I know what socialized medicine is like have been to hospitals in the Army and VA, and remember Staff Sergeants having to work extra jobs just to feed their families while Carter was President, and younger soldiers married having to live in the barracks in order to get by and as a result, I will NEVER, EVER, EVER vote for any democrat for as long as I live.
I have interacted very closely with addicts and alcholics due to some projects I work on.
George Bush has a well documented history of substance abuse and shows all the signs of being what's known as being a "dry" drunk. Ie. not using anything physically but not changing the thought processes that go on behind the addictive cycle. He continually displays an ability to deny reality, a refusal to change his thoughts/actions in spite of overwhelming evidence that another path, an unwillingness to take counsel from those who know more than he does, lack of humility, lack of inner reflection, lack of empathy for those around him.
I believe that a lot of the worst decisions Bush has made can be directly related to the character flaws above that he displays.
For those of you who think I'm a ringer or a shill, I'm not, but I do have a job as a industrial designer for a privately held electronics company; at least for now.
I know what socialized medicine is like have been to hospitals in the Army and VA, and remember Staff Sergeants having to work extra jobs just to feed their families while Carter was President, and younger soldiers married having to live in the barracks in order to get by and as a result, I will NEVER, EVER, EVER vote for any democrat for as long as I live.
xxxxx | 12.22.08 - 6:38 pm | #
I remember topping off every vehicle in the Battalion (I was Support platoon Leader), scrounging for toilet paper so we could wipe our ass, breaking up a rip-off at our Brigade Fuel Point at gun point (I was Asst. S-4 and saved my Brigade Commander's ass from several of his oversights.), I remember having to steal batteries from Division Issue so that our mine sweepers worked and we could therefore pass readiness, I remember lots of other esoteric things but it doesn't matter.
Some day, and that day may never come, you will vote for a democrat, just as I have, and think--this guy's different.
I've seen that theory advanced before and it certainly does explain the disconnection from reality suggested by his 'exit interviews' (including Sunday's in the Wall Street Journal)
Pissed Off In California writes:
I have interacted very closely with addicts and alcholics due to some projects I work on.
George Bush has a well documented history of substance abuse and shows all the signs of being what's known as being a "dry" drunk. Ie. not using anything physically but not changing the thought processes that go on behind the addictive cycle. He continually displays an ability to deny reality, a refusal to change his thoughts/actions in spite of overwhelming evidence that another path, an unwillingness to take counsel from those who know more than he does, lack of humility, lack of inner reflection, lack of empathy for those around him.
I believe that a lot of the worst decisions Bush has made can be directly related to the character flaws above that he displays.
Pissed Off In California | 12.22.08 - 6:39 pm
undamentally, capitalism presumes ethical dealings based on a sound moral compass.
Since we are all human, the capitalistic model is an ideal to be strived for. We'll never get there though since we are all human and prone to errors and temptation and 'ethical lapses'.
Same can be said for "democracy", "socialism", "regulation", "civilization", etc.
That's why the "ideologue" angle is so lame. You wanna call the Bush Administration incompetent crooks? Fine, I'm right there with you. If you want to call them that because of their specific ideology, then you're just plain wrong. It isn't a specific ideology, it's EVERY ideology.
"As someone else pointed out, Ike had 2 recessions, and since you've obviously been out of circulation for the last 18 months, we're winning in Iraq."
We intended to set up a Shia-dominated government in Baghdad with strong ties to Iran, while diverting our main forces from other global theaters of interest?
We intended to permit a third-rate power like Iran to gain so much influence?
If it weren't for Gen. Petraeus, who realized that the victory of the Shia opened up an avenue for the cooptation of the Sunni, we'd be in worse trouble.
Maybe we've won in Iraq, and maybe we've just squeezed the air in the balloon into a different corner.
I've seen that theory advanced before and it certainly does explain the disconnection from reality suggested by his 'exit interviews' (including Sunday's in the Wall Street Journal)
comrade swan | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 6:43 pm | #
Actually if you look at the interaction between Bush and the people he surrounds himself with in the WhiteHouse it is a classic example of the co-dependent relationship that is so common in social groups that interact with alcholics.
" Anonymous writes:
you've obviously been out of circulation for the last 18 months, we're winning in Iraq.
xxxxx
HA!...HA!...HA! Winning the "war" in Iraq. Evidently you've been out of circulation for the last 18 months. Define win?
Anonymous | 12.22.08 - 6:35 pm | # "
If you got your news someplace reputable, and not from the DailyKOS, you'd know better. Even your Obamessiah realizes that we're winning, though he's loathe to admit it.
Bush's Legacy ... Bush has no legacy. A legacy is that which you leave behind and he hasn't even left yet. It will take years and millions of revisionist contributions. Think about Hoover's legacy. He inheirited the "Roaring 20s" with policies set in motion with Wilson. He went forward with many of the stimulus programs credited to his successor. We judge him very poorly. Wilson? Not so much. FDR? The savior for being there when a war did what his policies could not.
an ability to deny reality, a refusal to change his thoughts/actions in spite of overwhelming evidence that another path, an unwillingness to take counsel from those who know more than he does, lack of humility, lack of inner reflection
"Why aren't there any criminal investigations of the deadbeat borrowers?"
Because there is little if any recovery available. Most of the defaulting borrowers cannot pay.
Zephyr | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 5:58 pm | #
A rather more fundamental reason is that not being able to pay back a loan is not a crime.
(I don't mean to give any credence to the initial, false, statement that there have been no criminal investigations of borrowers...just pointing out that there needs to be an allegation of crime to trigger an investigation.)
Although its been addressed by other commentators, criticizing the CRA is just plain dumb.
All the CRA did was attempt to stop the practice of banks making zero loans in "bad" postal codes. The idea being that even bad neighborhoods have some credit-worthy people trying to make a go of it - price the risk accurately instead of just saying "forget it". The CRA's contribution to the credit run-up was close to nil.
At least Kennedy was a confident son of a gun that ignored the right letter in defiance of the generals (From Khrushchev)
If McCain dies before 2012, realize how close we came to the abyss.....
Pissed Off In California writes:
I've seen that theory advanced before and it certainly does explain the disconnection from reality suggested by his 'exit interviews' (including Sunday's in the Wall Street Journal)
comrade swan | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 6:43 pm | #
Actually if you look at the interaction between Bush and the people he surrounds himself with in the WhiteHouse it is a classic example of the co-dependent relationship that is so common in social groups that interact with alcholics.
Pissed Off In California | 12.22.08 - 6:45 pm | #
How about this from Ed Rollins (Republican) on CNN
ROLLINS: I think there's no question if you're going to try to save this industry, which is an industry in real problems, you are going to have a lot more money that is going to be thrown at him. I think that's a lot of the objections of the Republicans.
I think the problem the president made here is he let it go to Congress. The Congress, his own party, basically, didn't want it. There's a few weeks before the new president comes in and this president is trying to be relevant. He doesn't want to be Herbert Hoover, he is going to be Herbert Hoover. I don't care what he says, or what Dick Cheney says, this president has damaged this economy and is going to go out with a tarnished record. I think the critical thing here is let the new Congress take charge and let the new president take charge and move it forward. Unfortunately, it is on their watch and it is a mess.
"I know what socialized medicine is like have been to hospitals in the Army and VA, and remember Staff Sergeants having to work extra jobs just to feed their families while Carter was President, and younger soldiers married having to live in the barracks in order to get by and as a result, I will NEVER, EVER, EVER vote for any democrat for as long as I live.
xxxxx"
I was in the army during Nixon/Ford/Carter/Reagan. Carter inheirited the mess from the Nixon/Ford administration. Military pay and living conditions were fucked at that time also.
Does that mean that I should never vote for a Republican again?
xxxxx writes:
For those of you who think I'm a ringer or a shill, I'm not, but I do have a job as a industrial designer for a privately held electronics company; at least for now.
Ford was Pres. when I went in and you are correct, sir. It was unilateralist disarmament from them and exacerbated by Carter and SALT II.
Funny, ain't it? How some people can come here full of emotion and not know it's not necessary to be so. We are in charge. We don't have to get emotional. Emotional people get excluded.
I don't have any worries that the history will be accurately written. I'm writing one for the period and you're all in it.
"Please explain your reasoning.
I am very curious as to your reasons for continuing to support Bush.
Ticker Tape of Doom | 12.22.08 - 6:50 pm | # "
Actually, I'm not that fond of him. He's led my party astray. We (well, most of us Republicans) didn't want all of this spending we got with GWB and Tom DeLay. My Dad refused to vote for President this year because he was so disgusted with the last 8 years.
Unlike, believe it or not, my democrat friends here in the PR of Massachusetts, I was against the Iraq war because I thought we had no business opening up another front while the outcome in Afghanistan was still up in the air. In other words, for purely strategic reasons. However, once we were there, I felt like we should support our troop's efforts AND mission.
I never liked his father, who like GWB, is a liberal in Republican clothing. I think they're calling them neocons now.
However, the original question was whether or not Bush was the worst President ever, and I contend that that "honor" goes to Jimmy Carter.
"They are getting paid to resurrect Bush's Legacy ...
mmckinl "
True. The White House has even resurrected Karen Hughes to try to manage Bush's "legacy". Your tax dollars at work.
People like xxxx get paid to post on blogs like this...
I drove to the Third Street Promenade this afternoon to buy a couple of presents that I can't get on line, and see if I could pick up a deal at the Circuit City BK sale.
All parking lots were full with cars backed up a block behind the entrances, waiting for spaces to open up. More cars orbiting looking for open lots. I can't tell how much people were actually buying, but did see some people carrying multiple bags as they hiked into the adjacent neighborhoods; towards their cars, I guess. Large mobs crossing the streets, very hard to make turns at intersections.
I gave up without parking and came home. Consumerism is apparently still healthy around here, anyway.
CVV, you brought to mind a question. Do you think history will be much more difficult to manipulate now that we have are in the "information age", where everybody has access to huge piles of information at their finger tips? My fear we will see more revisionist history in our textbooks of the future, similiar to the revisionist history they spoon fed me like so much pablum as a child in the 70's.
Re: Bush and addiction. I should also point out that Bush became a born-again Christian and "claimed" that it helped him over-come his addiction. As I stated previously I have dealt with many addicts and alchohics and in that time have only met a single person who succesfully dealt with addiction through religion. I have met many though who succesfuly transplanted their addictive tendencies and beliefs from a physical substance to a meta-physical substance via blind adherence to a religion without ever succesfully dealing with the underlying issues driving the addiction. Sadly many of them fail following this method (as many rumors of drinking by Bush again would indicate).
Not that religion is good or bad, just no replacement for dealing with issues truthfully when it comes to addiction.
CVV, you brought to mind a question. Do you think history will be much more difficult to manipulate now that we have are in the "information age", where everybody has access to huge piles of information at their finger tips? My fear we will see more revisionist history in our textbooks of the future, similiar to the revisionist history they spoon fed me like so much pablum as a child in the 70's.
Comrade Kristina | 12.22.08 - 7:03 pm | #
Yes, and most of the revisions will come from nobodies like me and you. Start writing, don't worry about whether anybody reads it, just report, and leave it at that--reporting.
"True. The White House has even resurrected Karen Hughes to try to manage Bush's "legacy". Your tax dollars at work.
People like xxxx get paid to post on blogs like this...
fried | 12.22.08 - 7:02 pm | # "
Only an ostrich could fail to see this coming. The financial sirens (not referring specifically to Tanta) were wailing back in 2005, not to mention Volkers Washington Post editorial. Oh the humanity!
Thanks for your response. I really appreciate it - your reasoning is sound.
The topic at hand though is not really who is the worst president in history.
It is Bush's response to our current situation. Which basically amounts to - I couldn't have node.
Therefore absolving himself of any responsibility.
You have to excuse me, but this response sounds like the reaction of a petulant teenager.
I am a card carrying social liberal / fiscal conservative who agreed with you up and until it was made brutally obvious that George Bush thinks he will be considered a successful president ... that pushed him past Carter.
Laughable hubris trumps lusting hearts
xxxxx writes:
"Please explain your reasoning.
I am very curious as to your reasons for continuing to support Bush.
Ticker Tape of Doom | 12.22.08 - 6:50 pm | # "
Actually, I'm not that fond of him. He's led my party astray. We (well, most of us Republicans) didn't want all of this spending we got with GWB and Tom DeLay. My Dad refused to vote for President this year because he was so disgusted with the last 8 years.
Unlike, believe it or not, my democrat friends here in the PR of Massachusetts, I was against the Iraq war because I thought we had no business opening up another front while the outcome in Afghanistan was still up in the air. In other words, for purely strategic reasons. However, once we were there, I felt like we should support our troop's efforts AND mission.
I never liked his father, who like GWB, is a liberal in Republican clothing. I think they're calling them neocons now.
However, the original question was whether or not Bush was the worst President ever, and I contend that that "honor" goes to Jimmy Carter.
xxxxx | 12.22.08 - 7:01 pm | #
However, the original question was whether or not Bush was the worst President ever, and I contend that that "honor" goes to Jimmy Carter.
Carter was a great president compared to Bush.
Bush has already lost the war in Iraq. Secret Iran won everything there.
The Taliban is winning in Afghanistan and we will get out soon if we dont want to end up like Russia in 1990.
The Military Industrial complex and Neocons have destroyed this once great country.
I gave up without parking and came home. Consumerism is apparently still healthy around here, anyway. \t sm_landlord | \t \t \tHomepage | \t12.22.08 - 7:02 pm | #
Where teardowns near the water still sell for a million five? I'd be surprised if it weren't.
"I was in the army during Nixon/Ford/Carter/Reagan. Carter inheirited the mess from the Nixon/Ford administration. Military pay and living conditions were fucked at that time also.
Does that mean that I should never vote for a Republican again?
.....
Speed Racer | 12.22.08 - 6:54 pm | # "
The mess you describe was from the democrats in congress after Watergate. The Republicans only had 20 or so senators at the time, and had little say in policy.
As long as there was no misrepresentation in obtaining the loan. Aye, there's the rub.
Rob Dawg | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 6:51 pm | #
Not everyone that's in default misrepresented. Among those that did, law enforcement resources are going to be concentrated on:
(1) fraud for profit, as opposed to fraud for housing
(2) larger-scale operations
(3) rings with one or more operatives inside the industry (title agent, appraiser, broker)
There's plenty of that to keep the law busy; I don't see any reason to waste a lot of resources chasing down everybody who left a blank space next to their income for the broker to fill in.
Bush profited from the subprime industry...his donor and pal Bob Arnall, of Ameriquest and Argent mortgages, donated 12 million to Bush's campaign and inaugural...Arnall was appointed Ambassador to the Netherlands on the same day he agreed to pay 325 million to 49 states' attorney generals for his company's business practices.
Nothing about the scummy tactics of subprime lenders was a surprise to Bush.
" Comrade Kristina writes:
Ha Gary, can't be ipodius, he hasn't insulted me personally yet.
Comrade Kristina | 12.22.08 - 7:04 pm | # "
Actually, I haven't insulted anyone, though I've been insulted a lot (apparently, I'm a moron, though I did somehow manage to be appointed to the U.S. Military Academy, a.k.a. West Point). I suspect that this is because these kids have run out of coherent arguments.
" fried writes:
Bush profited from the subprime industry...his donor and pal Bob Arnall, of Ameriquest and Argent mortgages, donated 12 million to Bush's campaign and inaugural...Arnall was appointed Ambassador to the Netherlands on the same day he agreed to pay 325 million to 49 states' attorney generals for his company's business practices.
Nothing about the scummy tactics of subprime lenders was a surprise to Bush.
fried | 12.22.08 - 7:10 pm | # "
"Where teardowns near the water still sell for a million five? I'd be surprised if it weren't."
--Bob Dobbs
Based on the last few months of sales numbers, this is where teardowns near the water don't sell any more. The local housing market has been frozen up since last summer, because the stuck speculators won't lower their prices. Also there are hundreds of houses and condos either in pre-foreclosure or with tax liens.
I had actually expected to see a slowdown, and catch a break on parking this year. Oh Well.
Based on the last few months of sales numbers, this is where teardowns near the water don't sell any more. The local housing market has been frozen up since last summer, because the stuck speculators won't lower their prices. Also there are hundreds of houses and condos either in pre-foreclosure or with tax liens.
sm_landlord | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 7:19 pm | #
If only Prop 8 had failed you could have expected a blizzard of newly married couples buying every available teardown north of Montana.
It's actually not a Republican or Democrat thing. It's just that the media and various partsan wingnuts are painting that way. The bad policy was mostly bipartisan, and not new to the last decade.
The real issue is the irresponsible Federal Reserve policy that created this financial crisis.
As long as we are more intent on proving that the other party's idiots were more to blame than our own party's idiots we will never see the real problems - and never learn from our mistakes.
" Crewman writes:
xxxxx, for the last time Shaun Hannity is calling, he has more BS for you
Crewman | 12.22.08 - 7:18 pm | # "
Why is it that there is no room here for intelligent discussion? I haven't insulted anyone, except for Jimmy Carter, and I make no apologies for that.
I've simply pointed out some facts that as best I can tell, are true, and used them to explain why I think Jimmy Carter is the worst President of my lifetime. For that, I've been berated, and it looks as though it's killing the thread. Remember, I didn't bring up the issue of worst President. I've just contributed to the discussion. However, it appears that some folks don't want discussion; They just want to spout bile and have everyone agree with them.
More revisionist history from the liberal media.
Nemo knows, just tell em!
CIT Wins Approval to Become Bank in Quest for Funds
CIT Wins Approval to Become Bank in Quest for Funds (Update2) - Bloomberg.com
Obligatory "Bin Laden determined to attack inside the U.S." memo reference.
But this statement from the White House gives you crystal clear insight as to their frame of mind. Deny Accountability is a front line objective.
By implication, if you saw the problem coming, then you are "almost no one".
I suspect an NFL game without referees would be a rather ugly affair. Or perhaps no one could see that coming too...
GW didn't see it coming. He was too busy watching Lassie reruns.
It's ALL Barack Obama's fault.
The most significant causes of the credit crisis were innovation in mortgage securitization coupled with almost no regulatory oversight (because of ideologues who opposed oversight and regulation).
I believe something about interest rates and leverage might have been involved, too...
The most significant causes of the credit crisis were innovation in mortgage securitization coupled with almost no regulatory oversight (because of ideologues who opposed oversight and regulation).
I believe something about interest rates and leverage might have been involved, too...
\t Nemo
Nemo | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 4:53 pm | #
----------
All factors influenced by regulators, no?
aside from CR's wisdom, the economist was ragging about world house prices since 2002
Thats a poor excuse, do they not have the internet at the whitehouse. I seen it coming via a few websites and I'm no global economic mastermind....maybe they thought this was the bubble that didn't burst
At least Winston Smith is fully employed. So much history to revise. So little time.
~e
What the hell is this thing biting me in the ass... I don't recognize it.
The most significant causes of the credit crisis were innovation in mortgage securitization coupled with almost no regulatory oversight (because of ideologues who opposed oversight and regulation).
"innovation" is that doublespeak for fraud?
Ask any first time buyer in the UK, they haven't been able to afford a house on a 3.5 multiple on an average salary since 2003...bet they saw it coming.
Before January 20, 2009.
It's ALL Barack Obama's fault.
No, no, no. What has happened so far is Bill Clinton's fault.
What happens next is Obama's fault.
history is catching up to W a little faster than he thought it would
Conjure says, "I don't give a hooting hell who caused it, but the Bush administration failed to see it coming."
"In my world, you give up your nuts when you fail."
I can't stop thinking about this statement from an interview with President Bush published in this weekend's WSJ.
[President Bush] doesn't believe change requires an ideological shift, but rather "new faces, new voices, fresh energy" that take "the same basic philosophy -- lower taxes, strong national defense, a belief in a responsibility era."
Now, the WH is saying that the current mess was caused by the flow of foreign funds into the US. Is that the kind of responsibility he was talking about?
"..."innovation" is that doublespeak for fraud?"
Fraud can be innovatory. Imagine being the inventor of a new scam. Amaze the Pharaoh. Astound Solomon.
It makes everybody feel better when you say that "nobody could have known." It removes ugliness like blame, fault and malicious incompetence and pushes it into the ether of the Universe. We are all just helpless humans, and certainly nobody would try to game the system for millions/billions. Honestly !
Other phraseology like this:
There was nothing anybody could have done.
These things happen.
It was out of anybody's control.
Nobody could have know it would come to this.
Some things are just unknowable.
Physicians say these things all the time, and it's a purposeful effort to lend gravitas and wisdow at a time when they really mean, "I don't have the first clue what I"m doing"
etc.
Oh the glorious foreign savings glut, the cause of all our ruin.
Would that it were so.
No, no, no. What has happened so far is Bill Clinton's fault.
What happens next is Obama's fault.
Nemo
You're right. Regardless, in no way could it possibly be Reagan's fault, with his trickle down(piss on lower class) theory. After all, he's dead.
Right, right. Always blame the foreign money. That global pool of money thing. They led us astray. Us, honest, hard-working, prudent Amerikaans.
Even if it were true that cheap money from abroad was the root of the problem, the White House still has no excuse. It's not like that is news either.
If they thought cheap money from abroad was the problem, why did they wait over 7 years to do something about it?
Just a transparent attempt to muddy the waters. It may work to help keep the administration officials on wingnut welfare, because the right-wing echo chamber is eager to spout their excuses even when they're nonsense (e.g., blame Fannie and Freddie) and a lot of people will listen to them to deny reality.
They would rather be thought of as idiots than liars or crooks.
A year ago while looking into buying US Savings Bonds for a relative I noticed that the maximum amount an individual could purchase in one year went from $35,000 to $5000.
Seems like "somebody" in the US Department of Treasury wanted to turn a fire exit in the crowded theater into a keyhole.
wasn't there something in the seventies about petrodollars being cycled into risky foreign loans that somehow makes the "cheap money" flows precedented? this time risky domestic loans were made
So they didn't see it coming, but that's alright because no one else did. Except for those that did. But at any rate, none of their policies contributed to the problem, and they were under no obligation to see it coming or prepare for the eventuality.
Mistakes were made, but not by me.
Awful. Just awful.
Can I get a great big group Hoocoodanode! The answer is, of course, anyone that didn't have their head firmly inserted in their asses, which discounts most of our elected officials and apparently all of WallStreet.
Blinded by greed.
Uh, no.
Cheap money flowing from the US Federal Reserve was the root cause.
Too much money to lend, and not enough qualified borrowers.
W's reputation besmirched by the tranchemeisters
It's a race to the bottom! First, the tabloids took the lead, but the NYT pulls ahead!
What a waste of trees.
With all due respect to the wisened minds here, the bubble could not have inflated without people actually buying those unregulated, securitized mortgages. There is no question that once domestic demand was met, foreign capital was used to inflate the bubble to even larger proportions than was possible using only domestic funding.
Bush isn't telling the whole story, but neither is the NYT.
Worst EVER!!!!
I could never figure out how Greenspin and the other assorted clowns could keep straight faces whilst chatting about this "influx of excessive foreign savings" and damn near in the next sentence selling to the gullible CNBC types how the next lowering of interest rates was going to help the economy.
If there was money flooding into the country then why would you need to lower the prime? Nobody ever asked.
What, no "hoocoodanode" tag?!?
Bush = worst leader ever
Yet Kudlow spews that same stupidity day after day...along with that half-wit Hannity
TXT late Monday lowered its adjusted fourth-quarter earnings outlook and said it will trim about 5% of its worldwide workforce...
Textron lowers outlook, to cut about 5% of workforce - MarketWatch
Nemo writes:
More revisionist history from the liberal media.
~~~~~
It isn't liberal media ...
It isn't right wing media ...
It's Corporate Media
Get that straight !
"For example, the President highlighted a factor that economists agree on: that the most significant factor leading to the housing crisis was cheap money flowing into the U.S. from the rest of the world..."
Those damn dirty Commies trying to destroy Capitalism by sending us all their money! Wait, what...?
crispy&cole writes:
Yet Kudlow spews that same stupidity day after day...along with that half-wit Hannity
My only hope is if it gets as bad as it could, these two assholes are last in line for food stamps
"economists agree on"
Which ones? The ones who work for him!
To use your brilliant locution, CR, "uh, no." The problem wasn't creative securitizations; the problem was the bad debt that was securitized. And that was called into being by left-liberal ideologues.
You place blame on the second-order cause. You should be placing blame on the first-order cause: the Dems' Community Reinvestment Act and its many cousins.
Lefties divvying up government favors in order to "do good" while -- not coincidentally -- helping their donors. That was the cause.
Well they were kindof screwed in the biggest bubble zones: that's where the jobs mostly were, so they got stuck bidding against their co-workers. Hell most of the job expansion of the entire Bush era seemed to be in Washington DC and No. Va.
Why would anyone give the statements by Dana Perino or her boss any more credience than one gives to the babblings of a bag lady?
" Nude writes:
With all due respect to the wisened minds here, the bubble could not have inflated without people actually buying those unregulated, securitized mortgages. There is no question that once domestic demand was met, foreign capital was used to inflate the bubble to even larger proportions than was possible using only domestic funding.
Bush isn't telling the whole story, but neither is the NYT.
Nude | 12.22.08 - 5:08 pm | # "
The real story is greed. Unrestrained, unregulated greed, to the point where money managers' own greed trumped their duty as stewards to the people who'd entrusted them with funds.
If the NYT isn't telling the whole story, it's because -- as somebody said above -- it's too corporate. Doesn't want to get the other guys at the country club angry.
Bush admin kleptocracy + massive US financial ponzi scheme is one helluva screw job to 98 or 99% of Americans for next ? years.
It's the libs fault because blablablabla
No its's the rights fault because blablablabla
No, it's the PPT's fault because blablabla
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
I think it will be easier for the US to wean itself off cheap imported crap than for the ROW to stop sending it here.
They just didn't see it blowing up on their watch.
Obama is going to be saying the same thing when he has to tell the boomer's to forget SS and Medicare.
ot-
US warns Russia on missiles to Iran...
Yahoo! 404 - Page Not Found 20081...s_russia_iran_2
my comment on Sat. centered around this article......
Asia times
All roads lead out of Afghanistan
Object Not Found JL20Df01.html
we are brewing some bad coffee in sw asia, this is Obama's foreign policy crisis Biden was touching on....
i think there is a commie under my bed
Andrew:
The witty tags were mostly a Tanta feature of the blog.
I agree it could use a whocoodanode tag though.
Speculation was definitely the case here in San Diego region. In my little coastal town it was flippers from Florida who thought they could do quick fix-ups and flip again. Then they discovered building codes (does Fla not have any?) and how small the actual market was unless they sold to yet another flipper.
Ah, here you are.
Was doing some read up and to my shock and horror fond this :
Pavel Chichikov writes:
From yesterday's thread, sorry, I owe Werner an apology for losing my temper.
Pavel
Pavel Chichikov | 12.21.08 - 8:30 am | #
Pavel, I have neither the slightest idea, nor can I imagine in any way that you have reason for an apology!
Even if you would say something negative, I would rather listen up and try to examine myselfs than be offended.
(Teutonic stubborness is not so easily offended : the other day someone here called me an " Fucking Idiot ". Well, a little bit harsh, but he had a perfecty good point why he said this, and so I was not offended. And you would never say such a thing, would you ?)
So, peace. And don't worry.
Why couldn't he have just said, We now have a Plutocracy, most of us can't find our ass, but we can find our way to Billions from the Arabs just as soon as I get the hell out of here. Pa taught Clinton, HeHeHe, and old slick taught me.
You're simply uniformed to the point of what has to be a deliberate level of total ignorance. I suggest you leave now because you shortly are going to find out in great detail from the commenters here how far you head is up your but.
And believe me, much of the shredding is going to come from people that are far from "lefty-liberals".
It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his NOT understanding it.
Upton Sinclair
I had lunch with a cute banker yesterday. She mentioned that they're seeing all kinds of refinancing activity right now. I asked her "what happens when inevitably interest rates rise? Aren't you worried that you're going to be stuck with all of these mortgages locked in at artificially low rates?"
Well, apparently this isn't a problem. Banks like Wells Fargo aren't stupid. All of this paper is being immediately sold to Fannie and Freddie so taxpayers can bear the risk.
When interest rates rise, the government is going to get screwed, but the banksters are going to profit nicely, risk free, in the meantime.
Ain't capitalism grand? The perfect scam...
Whenever they are successful they take full credit ...
When they screw the pooch ... it's we ...
Pissed-
I hear Russia's building a new missle called the PPT 300...never fails on delivery plus it packs multiple warheads...one for the investor up, one for the investor down and of course the one for the investor who sells to early...
"the Dems' Community Reinvestment aCT and its many cousins."
Hey genius..what does that have to do with prime loans? Or CRE? Or CDS? or etc...wake up and open your eyes!
yes, Nude. You are so right. Those people who bought those unregulated, securitized loans should fire their incompetent risk assessment managers IMMEDIATELY!
Jas and Marilyn both agree - We're all stars now / in the Dope Show.
@nude
you are just politely rehashing jas jai
I really hope this becomes known as the Bush Depression.
i think there is a commie under my bed
irreverent | 12.22.08 - 5:16 pm | #
Well given that my wife is Chinese I guess that need to rewrite the above statement as "there's a commie in my bed" haha
Nobody could know that the loans Fannie and Freddie are making now are going to come back and bite taxpayers in the ass....
"There was nothing anybody could have done.
These things happen.
It was out of anybody's control.
Nobody could have know it would come to this.
Some things are just unknowable. "
Whenever they are successful they take full credit ...
When they screw the pooch ... it's we ...
that was me, mmckinl
Fundamentally, capitalism presumes ethical dealings based on a sound moral compass.
Since we are all human, the capitalistic model is an ideal to be strived for. We'll never get there though since we are all human and prone to errors and temptation and 'ethical lapses'.
It's a race to the bottom! First, the tabloids took the lead, but the NYT pulls ahead!
What a waste of trees.
Hysterian | 12.22.08 - 5:08 pm | #
The NYT article was not that bad, to much emphisis on FNM/FRE, not enough on the mortgage brokers but overall I have seen far worse articles on the subject.
Well, with answers like the one above from The White House, no wonder that we are where we are right now.
Classic example of AMERICAN DENIALISM!
They expect "the rest of us" to see the world the way the see it. Too bad for them that not everybody is as idiotic as they were, and seem to be yet!
Hanging in the sky, in exactly the same way that bricks DONT.
"Fundamentally, capitalism presumes ethical dealings based on a sound moral compass."
Wasn't that the fly in Greenspans whole theory?
This was me as well :
Nemo writes:
More revisionist history from the liberal media.
~~~~~
It isn't liberal media ...
It isn't right wing media ...
It's Corporate Media
Get that straight !
cd,
good one.
Response to purple squirrel story on previous thread.
That squirrel mixed it up with some dye. No natural critter is that color, except parrots.
I never saw a purple squirrel.
I never hope to see one. . .
With appologies to cows.
Mall across the street report:
Actually busy.
You heard it: BUSY!!!!!
We are all hoocoodanode
Karl Rove spin tactics don't work in the age of the internet...sorry Bush your legacy is shit!
"You should be placing blame on the first-order cause: the Dems' Community Reinvestment Act and its many cousins."
The CRA was just another ineffective unnecessary policy until the demand for MBS went through the roof, I don't see a causal arrow there. Greed and fraud have no political affiliatio
Sports Guy Lafleur writes:
It makes everybody feel better when you say that "nobody could have known." It removes ugliness like blame, fault and malicious incompetence and pushes it into the ether of the Universe.
Oh, come on. You're just paying the "blame game", which is something only the Little People care about --and no one listens to them. Stop your whining so the People Who Matter can get back to lavishly rewarding themselves and looting your children's future.
OK. I didn't think so.
i think once W gets his library set up, maybe he should go into banking
Lefties divvying up government favors in order to "do good" while -- not coincidentally -- helping their donors. That was the cause.
Joe Malchow | 12.22.08 - 5:14 pm | #
Asschow is more like it. Never let facts ruin a good Rush Limbaugh monologue!
I blame, in order, the following people:
Alan Greenspan
George W. Bush
jg and bearly (tie)
Kidding, I was kidding . . . but not about Asschow.
Just like "no one could have foreseen" anyone crashing planes into a building when that had been part of a novel's plot, earlier.
Hoocoodanode?
Well, since we are discussing causes, we have to ask: "which came first, the chicken or the egg?"
Historically low interest rates cause money to reach for yield. And there is a saying on Wall Street about feeding the ducks when they quack. So does it make sense to argue that the massive expansion of high yielding synthetic instruments was the cause of cheap money? Or could cheap money have caused the pressure to create massive quantities of bogus debt instruments? And that the necessary raw material to create those instruments was obtained by essentially eliminating lending standards?
C'mon, girls.
Us Republicans have already turned on Bush for his lousy policing and socialist bailout mentality. We admit he did a terrible job.
I expect nothing different from Obama, though. How could you, given his putting Geithner in at Treasury?
Four more years of welfare for Wall Street.
Until the tax receipts dry up and the Treasury bond inflows dry up.
Happening in '09 and '10.
Federal government collapse thereafter.
Obama, change course now. Or, have the Federal government collapse on your watch.
Well to get the securitizing done, risk had to be mispriced.
So in my book that is cheap money.
Has Obama announced the members of his own President's Working Group yet ?
I suppose a faithful analysis is dependent upon the meaning of ' hypocritical rat-bastard nancy capitalists that thought they could inflate their way out of the business cycle and now are redistirbuting your children's welath to bailout rich folks' speculative bets in a caligula-like flame out of the bankrupt ideology of the rich'.
Ha, ha, b-!
i think once W gets his library set up, maybe he should go into banking
irreverent | 12.22.08 - 5:24 pm | #
Just like Grandpa, unfortunately his best customer shot himself in a bunker in '45, along with his dogs and new bride
"Nude wrote:
With all due respect to the wisened minds here, the bubble could not have inflated without people actually buying those unregulated, securitized mortgages. There is no question that once domestic demand was met, foreign capital was used to inflate the bubble to even larger proportions than was possible using only domestic funding."
With all due respect - this is blaming the fraud victims and bagholders for being pulled over the table. Foreigners were buyers becaused they saved and because the knew less.
"W" said something like, "I've never been anything more than a pit bull tugging on the pant leg of opportunity." He's surprisingly candid at times, like, "This sucker could go down," and "The market's a house of cards," and "Wall Street got drunk."
bearly--hear blago's on the inside track
Sinomania.
Yes, we have building codes in Florida.
South Fla has the strongest building codes in the nation, thanks to Hurricane Andrew.
I'm flattered, G-.
Me, with my retirement on Jan. 31, I intend to work to overthrow the Fed.
We have a terrible, corrupt financial system that has poisoned this country.
Liz,
was in downtown san francisco, westfield-union sq. midday Sunday...crowded but only stores with lines were the one with heavy discounts
all the smart men shoppers seemed to at Victorias Secret...
My 09 prediction..Divorce rates will go down...partner up now or be left holding the bag...new theme for wedding planners...marriage never goes down...
He's surprisingly candid at times, like, "This sucker could go down," and "The market's a house of cards," and "Wall Street got drunk."
Is that a feature or a bug?
comrade swan, A++.
Presidio Golf Course October 2002. Golf with a new aquantence(mortgage broker)
tells about i/o's. I said , but those are pro loans, not for every day people.
"This won't end well" said that day.
To be a devil's advocate contra both CR and the WH:
How the heck would we go about estimating what the 'most significant factor' was?
I expect that kind of sweeping unverifiable statement from my politicians, but from you, CR, I expect better.
cd:
was in downtown san francisco...
all the smart men shoppers seemed to (be) at Victorias Secret...
I couldn't read this statement without intense confusion.
The world was awash in liquidity. That was the impetus for the credit expansion.
Greenspan's easy money policies combined with ever-present greed drove this bubble.
The mortgage innovations predated the bubble. The use of these innovative products grew during the 90s and into the latest bubble. The products were no so new. But the insatiable demand for a few bps of additional yield removed all care and diligence. Greed!
CR
The most significant factor in this crissi was greenspan rate policy coupled with Rubin strong dollar policy. Everything else was derivative. Root and branch.
Pundit-you bastard how did you get a t time on presidio? live a cple miles from it so interest in your answer is great....
We have a terrible, corrupt financial system that has poisoned this country.
Comrade-Dope jg (jg) | 12.22.08 - 5:29 pm | #
We have 100% agreement on that, jg.
while it is easy and handy to blame the runaway mortgage market on "ideologues who opposed oversight and regulation" the real truth is all interested parties were doing what they should based on their 'interests'. The Senate banking commitee (controlled by Democrats) refused to allow limits on FNMA out for a vote. Disasters like this happen when all parties are headed down the same highway and over the cliff - it is called Collusion = big business, big govt and big Labor (homeowners).
Yield pigs led to slaughter
(Citizen Grant nailed it a long time ago. - AM)
Nov. 25 (Bloomberg) -- James Grant, the vigilant editor of Grants Interest Rate Observer, is nothing if not prescient.
The CDO machine, he writes, resembles some giant monetary snowblower, scattering dollar bills into the open hands of underwriters, investment banks, investment managers and rating agencies.
What are CDOs, you ask? Stacks of debts, Grant says in his martini-dry voice. Debts on the asset side of the balance sheet, debts on the liabilities side. They resemble banks without walls -- or depositors or regulators.
And who, by the way, buys asset-backed securities? Yield pigs, Grant replies.
Posted by Anonymous Monetarist
gw writes:
"Nude wrote:
With all due respect to the wisened minds here, the bubble could not have inflated without people actually buying those unregulated, securitized mortgages. There is no question that once domestic demand was met, foreign capital was used to inflate the bubble to even larger proportions than was possible using only domestic funding."
With all due respect - this is blaming the fraud victims and bagholders for being pulled over the table. Foreigners were buyers becaused they saved and because the knew less.
gw | 12.22.08 - 5:28 pm | #
That leadership we can believe in! Blame the messenger. Our country has been run by clueless morons for 8 years, and they refuse to be accountable for any of their blunders...
We have two scenarios going on here ...
The first the mortgage bubble based on derivatives ...
The second ... a 50 trillion dollar debt bubble that the mortgage collapse has popped ...
much synthetic money has gone to synthetic money heave
Easy money - everyone wanted in on it.
So they bought homes to flip. Mortgage brokers brokered the money from lenders, who sold it out the back door to investors, who were so anxious for a few extra bps of yield that they ignored/underestimated the risk. Eventually, like all bubbles, it fell from its own weight.
Lots of mistakes were made by borrowers, lenders, regulators etc. But, none of this could have happened without excessive liquidity.
Thank you Alan Greenspan.
Perhaps a better approach is for the Administration is to take ownership for their part in the disaster.
In this age, the buck always stops somewhere else. Well rounded debate seems impossible with everyone pitching themselves in the most positive light while ignoring reasonable concerns.
To you CR -
I have commented on numerous occasions that the buyers of this crap paper are the real culprits. We live in a caveat emptor society! The thought of having to protect a highly compensated buyer from Wall Street scam artists pushing an attractively packaged scam is ridiculous. Scam artists exist, in whatever form, as long as an available mark is around to fall for the scam.
BTW - All those idiot buyers had to do was read this blog to discover the scam and their incompetence. I wonder how many buyers knew they were buying a scam.
You should be placing blame on the first-order cause: the Dems' Community Reinvestment Act and its many cousins.
Except for the minor detail that banks loaning under CRA had better default rates than other banks. And Fannie and Freddie had one-seventh the default rate of other lenders.
But you can blame Bush for blocking numerous state investigations of the criminal lending that was a big part of the mess.
TurdBlossom Shrub.....
The Manufacture of Contempt.
coming to a history book near you
crispy&cole writes:
Karl Rove spin tactics don't work in the age of the internet...sorry Bush your legacy is shit!
crispy&cole | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 5:21 pm | #
A decade of a steadily increasing trade deficit sent dollars abroad--dollars that had traditionally been invested primarily in treasurys.
Then treasurys went to ~1%, and MBS's provided the ability to invest in residential US real estate at greater than 5% became available. US real estate never goes down, so why not?
Surely there were failures in regulation and ethics that fanned the flames, but without the growing trade deficit the fuel wouldn't have been there in the first place.
Well, what do you expect from Bush?
Remorse? Guilt? A last minute injection of brain cells?
People have been selling and securitizing loans for a long time. It led to an immediate drop in quality when I observed the change from holding to selling in the mid-80s. But there was still value there.
The most amazing thing was the 100% loans divided into 80-20, to avoid mtg insurance. When I heard that lenders were offering this, I was amazed.
Seems to me that the purchases of securitized 2nd loans had no brains whatsoever, and I refuse to regard them as victims. The 80% purchasers who are losing their shirts, I can dredge up some sympathy for.
Krugman got the Nobel Prize in economics and Mish is currently aiming for the same honor in biology. Please head over to his site and check out the groundbreaking contribution on Fiscal Insanity Virus (FIV). He finally found the root cause.
Hilarious and worth reading!
" crispy&cole writes:
Bush = worst leader ever
crispy&cole | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 5:10 pm | # "
How old are you? Do you remember the Carter years?
The Senate banking commitee (controlled by Democrats) refused to allow limits on FNMA out for a vote.
And a good thing they did, too. As I mentioned above, Fannie and Freddie have 1/7 the default rate of the rest of the mortgage business. If everything had gone through the GSEs we would never have gotten nearly as deep.
When the assessment and pricing of risk is performed by someone who's only stake in the outcome is a % commission on the gross value of the transaction, one should expect faulty implementation of the underwriting standards.
Only a fool would expect otherwise.
And many fools did.
A fool and his money are soon parted.
.
the winners get to write the history
Here is someone who knew. Read the date, then the words, then the date again.
THE RICHEBÄCHER LETTER
NOVEMBER 2002
In the face of slumping stock prices, the new consumer borrowing and spending binge received its most
recent impetus from the coincidence of three events: (1) a surge in house prices, (2) a sharp fall in mortgage
rates, and (3) very aggressive lending activity by the mortgage system. It delivered another temporary boost to
GDP growth, but this boost was definitely not qualified to sow the seeds for sustained, self-reinforcing recovery.
Was it another bubble? Of course it was. On closer look, it resulted from a sequence of three bubbles
first, the Treasury bond bubble; second, the house bubble; and third, the consumer borrowing and spending
bubble...
In his Jackson Hole, Wyo., speech, Mr. Greenspan reiterated his familiar viewpoint that it is difficult to
definitely identify a bubble until after the fact that is, when its bursting confirms its existence. Rubbish. The
bubble was as apparent to everybody as the emperor without clothes.
The most significant cause of the credit crisis was that deadbeat borrowers refused to pay back money they promised to pay back.
If they would just send in their mortgage checks like they agreed to, none of this would have happened!
I have commented on numerous occasions that the buyers of this crap paper are the real culprits. We live in a caveat emptor society! The thought of having to protect a highly compensated buyer from Wall Street scam artists pushing an attractively packaged scam is ridiculous. Scam artists exist, in whatever form, as long as an available mark is around to fall for the scam.
Allen C | 12.22.08 - 5:37 pm | #
The real culprit are the people who will not force the buyers to take the loss. Namely the FED and the Treasury. Deregulation doesn't work if people don't take a loss on their investments.
But given that the Chinese/Japanese/Russians/middle-east were the biggest buyers of the crap we peddled we don't want to piss them off.
As always it comes down to "there is no free lunch" Now we get to pay as a society for living beyond our means for the last 30 years.
Our financial system falls apart fast if we force foreign debt buyers to take a haircut.
Or our financial system falls apart slow if we bail them out.
Same result, just different paths to get there.
"" Anonymous writes:
They just didn't see it blowing up on their watch.
Obama is going to be saying the same thing when he has to tell the boomer's to forget SS and Medicare.
Anonymous | 12.22.08 - 5:15 pm | # "
That will never happen. Never. Neither will America devolve into Road Warrior Nation, nor mass starvation rule the land, nor any other dire apocalyptic scenario.
Because -- we are a nation of vast resources. And whatever rules or understandings stand in the way of deploying those resources to stop mass poverty among the middle classes will be put aside or suspended. To do anything else would destabilize society.
You might or might not like the nation that comes out the other side of this process. But that's another story.
Agreed, with one important distinction.
Carter left office knowing he was a loser....
xxxxx writes:
" crispy&cole writes:
Bush = worst leader ever
crispy&cole | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 5:10 pm | # "
How old are you? Do you remember the Carter years?
xxxxx | 12.22.08 - 5:42 pm | #
Hysterian writes:
What a waste of trees.
Hysterian | 12.22.08 - 5:08 pm | #
---
Agreed. Isn't/Wasn't there an editor who read this story and said, "It is utter crap. I'd rather track down Madoff's old Pre-K teacher and quiz her if she foresaw his future betray. If she was dead, then interview a psychic who claims to be able to channel her.
Seriously, I don't want to hear/read any of Dubya's dribble any longer. I don't want to hear from the WH PR staff any longer. No, you really are that irrelevant. buh-bye now. Excuse us as we try to put our society back together again...
If I borrow $10,000 from the bank and cant pay it back...that's my problem and I will have to deal with it. If the bank lends me 1,000,000 and I cant pay it back....that's their problem, and now the banking system is having to deal with it.
Ya, it was the community reinvestment act and that bill that Clinton passed that made the banks loan to everyone that came through the door. Yea thats it. It's the leftys fault. Those bleeding hearts.
If the banks have to loan to everyone, why aren't they making loans?
Agreed, with one important distinction.
Carter left office knowing he was a loser....
comrade swan | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 5:46 pm | #
I was always under the impression that Carter proved that you can't govern the US and tell people the truth. Americans have an incessant need to be told that sunshine reigns supreme, oil will last forever and living within your means is for losers.
No, you really are that irrelevant. buh-bye now.
yagij | 12.22.08 - 5:47 pm | #
And if they steal another $350B in the next 4 weeks? Venal, yes, but hardly irrelevant.
My vote for the underlying cause - An insolvent USA. With a chronic budget & trade deficit, negative wage gains & negative personal savings rate the only way to rig the system to make it look prosperous is cheating.
" lawyerliz writes:
......
People have been selling and securitizing loans for a long time. It led to an immediate drop in quality when I observed the change from holding to selling in the mid-80s. But there was still value there.
The most amazing thing was the 100% loans divided into 80-20, to avoid mtg insurance. When I heard that lenders were offering this, I was amazed.
Seems to me that the purchases of securitized 2nd loans had no brains whatsoever, and I refuse to regard them as victims. The 80% purchasers who are losing their shirts, I can dredge up some sympathy for.
lawyerliz | 12.22.08 - 5:41 pm | # "
Dear LawyerLiz,
Why can't the gubmint go after these folks on the RICO statutes? It seems as though some of these goings on must be able to trigger RICO. Your thoughts?
"Why would anyone give the statements by Dana Perino or her boss any more credience than one gives to the babblings of a bag lady?"
There's an outside chance the bag lady may have something useful or truthful to say...bush and his talking parrakeet Perino are neither useful nor honest.
worst president and most fraudulent admin in American history...beating Warren G. Harding to the bottom.
It's just a fantasy
It's not the real thing
It's just a fantasy
It's not the real thing
Sometimes a fantasy
Is all you need!
"
I was always under the impression that Carter proved that you can't govern the US and tell people the truth. Americans have an incessant need to be told that sunshine reigns supreme, oil will last forever and living within your means is for losers.
Pissed Off In California | 12.22.08 - 5:49 pm | # "
You can argue whether or not America was ready to hear but. But in truth, Carter was a lousy salesman. He couldn't even control his Democratic congress that well.
Knowing the truth and knowing what to do with it -- two different matters.
was nothing to walk in and signup.
Our moronic President didn't see much of anything in time, including the disaster in Iraq, the stupidity of Afghanistan, etc., etc., etc., etc. ad infinitum. Oh and he didn't see the Katrina disaster either. Not even when they flew him down to see it.
Louie Sez writes:
If I borrow $10,000 from the bank and cant pay it back...that's my problem and I will have to deal with it. If the bank lends me 1,000,000 and I cant pay it back....that's their problem, and now the banking system is having to deal with it.
C'mon Louie, how did the bank know you wanted $1,000,000?
Deadbeat borrowers walked into banks and asked for money, promised to pay it back, and now are failing to follow up on their agreements.
Why can't the gubmint go after these folks on the RICO statutes?
xxxxx | 12.22.08 - 5:51 pm | #
For all practical purposes, the gubmint IS these folks. Don't look for any RICO prosecutions.
Pissed Off in Cali, you got that right. I'm in the middle of being told on another forum that I'm a doom and gloomer and I'm bringing all things bad on myself by not seeing all the good things we have. The usual, we're number one, rah rah, pom pom BS. They can't seem to process the information I provide and realize "Hey, maybe it would be a good idea to stock up on some supplies and cash"...Instead they play shoot the messenger...
xxxxx writes:
" crispy&cole writes:
Bush = worst leader ever
crispy&cole | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 5:10 pm | # "
How old are you? Do you remember the Carter years?
xxxxx | 12.22.08 - 5:42 pm | #
I'm 50, and Bush has Carter beat by a mile, not old enough to judge vs. Jimmy Buchanan, but suspect he is the only real compitition. I am a bit of a history buff, and while other presidents mess up in a single dimension, Bush screwed up in so many ways that you need string theory to get to all the dimensions
tyler, if your my neighbor and want to borrow my hammer, you better give it back when your done....if instead I say here are the keys to my house...it's my fault to have done that by being stupid!
Carter was not a mass murderer. Bush is.
Pissed Off in Cali, you got that right. I'm in the middle of being told on another forum that I'm a doom and gloomer and I'm bringing all things bad on myself by not seeing all the good things we have. The usual, we're number one, rah rah, pom pom BS. They can't seem to process the information I provide and realize "Hey, maybe it would be a good idea to stock up on some supplies and cash"...Instead they play shoot the messenger...
Comrade Kristina | 12.22.08 - 5:52 pm | #
Funny isn't it how attempting to see the truth seems to create a smaller group of acquaintances no matter the situation. Man I'm lucky my wife is open to seeing the truth else I'd REALLY be screwed.
At work I don't even say anything anymore since everything I've laid out has come to pass. Unfortunately you can't force people to see reality and prepare for it. Denial seems to be a very strong coping strategy.
Dirk,
I agree about Bush vs Carter. Carter was a brilliant man, but a terrible president. Bush is just a terrible president.
Fair Economist writes:
But you can blame Bush for blocking numerous state investigations of the criminal lending that was a big part of the mess.
Why aren't there any criminal investigations of the deadbeat borrowers?
They walked out of banks with money they agreed to pay back, and now they aren't making good on their agreement.
remember Bush didn't even know his daughter was a problem drinker...
that being said he can't say he was drunk on the watch as he was really drinking watered down scotch and vodka..
He forgot where he placed the line on the bottles label too...
kids are tricky like that...
"Why aren't there any criminal investigations of the deadbeat borrowers?"
Because there is little if any recovery available. Most of the defaulting borrowers cannot pay.
Pissed, yep, my social circle is more like a small arc now. My customers at the bar remark occassionally about how I've been right about everything so far BUT, surely it won't get as bad as I'm saying it will...go figure...
I miss Tanta.
She really kept the idealogues in line.
Mortgage Pig Ombudsman needed!
this comment thread has jumped the shark
Breaking news off WSJ:
The Treasury's inspector general has opened up a formal probe of the Office of Thrift Supervision in connection with a backdated capital infusion into IndyMac Bancorp weeks before its collapse in July.
And the hits keep coming. I smell a conjure clock update...,
" Dirk van Dijk writes:
......
I'm 50, and Bush has Carter beat by a mile, ......
Dirk van Dijk | 12.22.08 - 5:53 pm | # "
Wrong! Carter managed to bungle up most of our foreign policy, giving away the Panama Canal, the Iran Hostage Crisis, etc. Despite what you liberals and your minions in the MSM say, the beginnings of the S&L crisis occurred under Carter, and were a direct results of the policies pursued by his administration. If you can't see and appreciate how bad he was, I really just don't know what to say. Every time that clown gets on TV or radio and starts talking about how bad Bush is, I get the urge to ring his scrawny neck, and I know that's the same way a lot (I'd venture to guess most) veterans like myself feel.
There aren't enough jail cells to hold everybody, unless you let the dopers out, which you should.
Seriously, this kind of fraud is extremely difficult to prove.
I couldn't get the locals to prosecute in a case of clear fraud on a deed.
They are prosecuting a few in Miami-Dade, I still have contacts in the econmic crimes dept; but it is a drop in the ocean of fraud, and Florida is cutting money for the Courts, prosecutors and public defenders--crazy, no?
link from WP:
Regulator Let IndyMac Bank Falsify Report - washingtonpost.com
Plantagenet writes:
And if they steal another $350B in the next 4 weeks? Venal, yes, but hardly irrelevant.
Plantagenet | 12.22.08 - 5:50 pm | #
---
And if they don't? In my personal finances, I've already "priced in" the last run(s) on the tax payers' dime, and I've already "priced in" how little/nothing is going to be done about it. Until Huncle Sam is sending all of us 50+k checks to buy stuff, I don't really see the velocity of money picking up between now and Jan. 20, 2009. Heck, I don't see it moving any faster before March 31, 2009. By then, Dubya will be gone, and the Financial Crater left in his wake will make the crater left by the axe of Paul Banyan look tame.
Seriously, Dubya's words mean nothing to me just like Kash-n-Karry's testimony means nothing to me. We have foxes in the hen house, and sans some kind of all-reaching clawback punishment ala Pinochet playing out, he is good as gone. Most everything written for TV or Paper Media is utter garbage if it is quoting politicos in the Heat of a Political Firestorm--if we aren't still in the pre-warming phase.
CR: Yes.
mp/Conjure: Helluva Yes.
Dubya: No.
This is all a huge shock to the producers of "Flip That House," and "My House is Worth What?"
"no on saw coming"???
Any other opinion didn't matter and would have been marginalized and as labeled "UnAmerican".
The invincible propaganda/spin machine lives on.
All these financial geniuses and nobody put forth a convincing picture of the truth?
Makes one completely doubt that complex financial and related political systems can be controlled by their creators.
Carter lived in his own little ivory tower of good intentions. He had no real grasp of world realpolitic.
Bush just has no grasp.
Why aren't there any criminal investigations of the deadbeat borrowers?
Because it's pointless. Each borrower borrowed once to a few times. Each brokerage company sold thousands of loans. Plus, no matter how many borrowers you prosecuted, the brokerage company would always find marks (most borrowers did not understand what was going). Stop the brokers, stop the fraud.
Oh, and even this psychotically prison-crazy country couldn't lock them all up. You want to lock up 30% of the population of San Diego county?
When somebody runs a credit card scam setting up credit cards for homeless people who do you prosecute? The street people? The clue express is in the station; get aboard.
Wrong! Carter managed to bungle up most of our foreign policy, giving away the Panama Canal, the Iran Hostage Crisis,
xxxxx | 12.22.08 - 6:01 pm | #
By Iran Contra Crisis, do you mean the one that had that little related illegal arms deal that delayed releasing the hostages until after Carter left office?
Carter may have sucked as a president. But I admire greatly what he has tried to do with his life and legacy after he left office. Unfortunately I have a strong feeling Bush will suck in office and out of office legacy wise.
To all the "veterans" out there talking about liberal media this, liberal media that, let's look at the facts: the only other year that the market got cut in half was 1931. That's right, there was only one other year in history when the market took as big a loss than in 2008. Yes, Carter was a complete nimrod. But Bush has got him beat. Only President in history to serve during two recessions--let that sink in a bit. Liberal and Conservative alike we've had our share of complete idiots over the past 75 years, but Bush and this Congress takes the cake.
Hello, deflationary spiral.
Caterpillar Inc. announced plans Monday for a raft of pay cuts as growth has weakened in emerging markets that had helped double revenues over the past five years.
The U.S.-based heavy-equipment maker said it will cut executive compensation by as much as 50% and offer voluntary buyouts to 25,000 "management and support" employees, who also face more-modest pay cuts.
I would go so far as to such willful misinformation and propaganda. In other words, traitorous partisan behavior that would rather score points by blaming the other side than disseminating the truth.
Every time that clown gets on TV or radio and starts talking about how bad Bush is, I get the urge to ring his scrawny neck, and I know that's the same way a lot (I'd venture to guess most) veterans like myself feel.
xxxxx | 12.22.08 - 6:01 pm | #
Ah yes.
It's really about the draft dodger pardon isn't it?
"You want to lock up 30% of the population of San Diego county?"
Maybe...Would that mean their pretty little trophy wives would be alone, lonely, and looking for physical contact from other men?
Bush did know: he said of the U.S. housing boom in early 2006: "If houses get too expensive, people will stop buying them... Economies should cycle."
Elvis, right on "all you can eat baby"
They can't seem to process the information I provide
That's the nature of people.
Existing ideas & behavior have very high impedance.
Predator society.
Bush is a flipping joke.
Obama will follow suit.
Don't be afraid
To say the words that will move me.
Any time you want
To tell them to me!
It's just a fantasy
Uh-oh-oh-oh
It's not the Real Thing.
I'm sure he acted alone:
Senior Federal Banking Regulator Removed
By Binyamin Appelbaum
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, December 22, 2008; 3:24 PM
A senior federal banking regulator has been removed from his job after government investigators concluded that he knowingly permitted IndyMac Bancorp to present a misleading picture of its financial health in a federal filing only months before the California thrift was seized by regulators.
The Office of Thrift Supervision removed Darrel Dochow as director of its western region, where he was responsible for regulating several of the largest banks that failed or were sold in the past year, including Washington Mutual, Countrywide Financial, IndyMac and Downey Savings and Loan.
Dochow allowed IndyMac to count money it got in May in a report describing its financial condition at the end of March, according to an investigation by the Treasury Department's inspector general, Eric Thorson, which was described in a letter from Thorson.
Thorson wrote that OTS, one of four federal agencies that regulates banks, allowed other companies that it oversees to perform a similar legerdemain, though he did not name those companies.
ad_icon
Dochow did not immediately respond to requests for comments.
An OTS spokesman did not immediately return a call or an e-mail. In a letter to the inspector general, the head of OTS, John Reich, described Dochow's actions as a "relatively small factor in the events leading to the failure of IndyMac." Reich said he had assigned Dochow to work on "special projects and administrative issues" while Thorson completes his investigation.
XXXX
How many of the hostages died? How many U.S. soldiers have died in Iraq? Panama canal is still operating, and overall our relationship with Latin America has been pretty good since (although Bush has certianly screwed it up a bit). Not saying he belongs on Rushmore, but relative to W he is Abe friggin Lincoln.
S&L crisis, seems to me the jump in FDIC insurance to $100K happened unde RR, the lax oversight of the S&L's happened under RR and GHWB, big streatch to blame that on Carter.
--
"... but the idea that "no one saw" the problem coming is nonsense."
See, what I mean, just nonsense not an outright lie and immoral conduct?
The problem with America is that the same liars and Crooks would continue to exercise more power than before.
Jas
NoVaWatcher writes:
""You're simply uniformed to the point of what has to be a deliberate level of total ignorance.""
"I would go so far as to such willful misinformation and propaganda. In other words, traitorous partisan behavior that would rather score points by blaming the other side than disseminating the truth."
Quoted because it is the truth. Divide and conquer, all over again.
"Only President in history to serve during two recessions--let that sink in a bit."
But you forget that the first one started just as he took office, on the heels of the stock market crash at the end of Clinton's term.
It takes several years to build the problems for a recession.
maybe we should apppint the "warren commision" to look into it.
" lawyerliz writes:
There aren't enough jail cells to hold everybody, unless you let the dopers out, which you should.
Seriously, this kind of fraud is extremely difficult to prove.
....
They are prosecuting a few in Miami-Dade, ...crazy, no?
lawyerliz | 12.22.08 - 6:03 pm | # "
From Wikipedia:
Under the law, racketeering activity means:
* Any violation of state statutes against gambling,
* Any act of bribery, counterfeiting, theft, embezzlement, fraud, dealing in obscene matter, obstruction of justice, slavery, racketeering, gambling, money laundering, commission of murder-for-hire, and several other offenses covered under the Federal criminal code (Title 18);
* Embezzlement of union funds;
* Bankruptcy or securities fraud;
* Drug trafficking;
* Money laundering and related offenses;
* Bringing in, aiding or assisting aliens in illegally entering the country (if the action was for financial gain);
* Acts of terrorism.
It seems that for some of these, particularly Bankruptcy or securities fraud, it should be possible to indict, and once that's done, all assets could be frozen (again, according to Wikipedia). We're not talking about everyone who's failed to make a payment; it's likely that defaulting homeowners have only violated one of the above mentioned, and would not qualify for RICO, but I'd think that AIG manages that took +400k of Govt. funds for spa's, etc., probably violated one other of the above, and could be indicted. Once indicted, ALL of their assets could be frozen and made unavailable to them, and they wouldn't be able to mount extravagant defenses.
Bush's Legacy ...
Worst President in history ...
Now we get all the paid shills tellin' us it ain't so ...
I smell Karl Rove all over these nimrods ...
Better late than never.
Thread theme -
YouTube -
"Just A Fantasy"
I'm working on my Defcon submission (pun intended).
Blogger: Blog not found
Unsophisticated so far but the Arabs are figuring it out. They need a better feedback loop and then automated it with AI bots.
See, what I mean, just nonsense not an outright lie and immoral conduct?
~~~~
You nailed it Jas ... the corporate media trying to scrub the facts from consciousness.
Carter's tenure was a failed presidency in many ways. As an individual he is impressive, is due respect, and has conducted himself with dignity and aplomb.
If George wasn't born on third base he would be a mid-level manager snapping towels at the waitresses in Applebee's every evening.
FUN FACT : His secret service handle when daddy was ambassador? TUMBLER
There is so much blame to go around, I don't lay all the blame on securitization and oversight. I would add: excessive leaverage, rating agencies, the agency problem, an effective monopoly of private mortgage insurance by a couple of giant companies, speculation, credit default swaps (I still don't understand the purpose of these), mindless institutional buyers, lazy attorneys, greedy stock option driven wall street types, and governmental regulations and special interest groups that pressured lenders to make sub prime loans to sub prime people. They can all share some of the blame. The solution: reduce leverage, prosecute fraud, lending guidelines based primarily upon equity postion, break up the big dysfunctional national lenders and PMI companies into much smaller entiites.
" Red Pill writes:
......
Ah yes.
It's really about the draft dodger pardon isn't it?
Red Pill | 12.22.08 - 6:09 pm | # "
Ya' know, I'd forgotten all about that. One more reason I can't stand that clown.
Zephyr writes:
"Only President in history to serve during two recessions--let that sink in a bit."
and lose 2 wars. Iran would of made 3
That regulator guy did it in the late 80s and then did it again.
Hoocouldaknowd? Sorry, I'm not spelling that right/wrong.
As a fellow airchair student of history, as well as, an avid reader of presidential bios, and graduating with a BA in history, I have to say that this president is the bottom three of all time.
Before, anyone goes political on me, keep in mind I voted for Bush I, Clinton, Nader, P. Buchanan, and Bush 2 (twice, my bad, I know, I thought lesser of two evils), so I am all over the map, and yes, I am independent.
Despite all the tin foil cospiracy surrounding Buch II, I think the real problem is that he intellectually and emotionally isn't fit for the job.
Look at how he acts. Always cavalier and like a cowboy.
"My way or the door is there for you." He is a president, not a dictator. Also, the secrecy of this administration is beyond words. I wouldn't trust this admin to watch my roll of pennies for an hour.
That doesn't wash anymore.
We need serious people to lead this country.
Not cartoon characters.
"Why aren't there any criminal investigations of the deadbeat borrowers?
They walked out of banks with money they agreed to pay back, and now they aren't making good on their agreement.
Tyler"
You're in over your head. They agreed to make the loan payments or the bank would take the house back. That was the deal and that is what is happening now.
"Only President in history to serve during two recessions--let that sink in a bit."
Yes, he's a total failure. But be careful with timing related labels - BHO could very well preside over the worst depression in our history...
Tanta is letting out a heavenly 'tsk tsk' on this one:
Regulator Let IndyMac Backdate Capital, Watchdog Says (Update1) - Bloomberg.com
Regulator Let IndyMac Backdate Capital, Treasury Says
IndyMac Banks U.S. regulator allowed the lender to backdate a capital infusion from its holding company to let the mortgage lender maintain well-capitalized status and escape regulatory sanctions, the Treasury Departments watchdog arm said today.
It is unclear what information OTS had at the time and what its basis was for allowing the capital infusion to be recorded for the quarter ending March 31, 2008, Thorson wrote to Grassley in a letter dated today. A separate inquiry as to a motive for approving and recording this transaction in the manner it was recorded is still ongoing.
comrade swan writes:
Carter's tenure was a failed presidency in many ways. As an individual he is impressive, is due respect, and has conducted himself with dignity and aplomb.
If George wasn't born on third base he would be a mid-level manager snapping towels at the waitresses in Applebee's every evening.
Comrade Swan you made my point. This guy shouldn't be doing more than changing the cooking oil at Burger Thing, er, I mean, King!
I was driving back from my Xmas shopping today and realized I've almost completely disconnnected myself from "normal" people. By "normal" I mean, those that still think things will get back to normal once the little recession thingy is over with. I almost look at them with pity now, realizing they have no idea what is about to hit them nor do they want to know...It's a pretty loney place to be...
Hoocoodanode! The answer is, of course, anyone that didn't have their head firmly inserted in their asses, which discounts most of our elected officials and apparently all of WallStreet.
Comrade Kristina | 12.22.08 - 5:05 pm | #
I like your succinct style, Comrade K.
I agree with CR 100%. Just look at Fannie and Freddie (they have more than 100 years of regulations between them) how well they are doing.
P.S. I would like to take a moment to thank those who listened to Tanta, CR, etc, and bought F&F shares. You helped me more than you will ever know. May God bless you for you are going to need it!
Well, now that hell (Las Vegas) is freezing over, it only makes sense that Lereah is finally telling the truth...
New Jersey Real Estate Report » Realtor Chief Economist: “I spun”
It's just a fantasy
Uh-oh-oh-oh
It's not the Real Thing.
Broward Horne
I wonder if people know you are quoting Billy Joel lyrics?
P.S. I would like to take a moment to thank those who listened to Tanta, CR, etc, and bought F&F shares. You helped me more than you will ever know. May God bless you for you are going to need it!
Broker | 12.22.08 - 6:21 pm | #
Wow, where did CR or Tanta ever encourage anyone to buy any stock in anything? Link please.
"Only President in history to serve during two recessions--let that sink in a bit."
Actually not true, Ike had 2 as well, but they were pretty breif affairs, and the economy back then was much more prone to swings due to inventory cycles.
People are starting to call me "prescient". Not that does me much good. I wish I knew where the high ground is.
Haloscan is really slow and I think I will sign off soon, 'cause I can't deal with it anymore.
Ya' know, I'd forgotten all about that. One more reason I can't stand that clown.
xxxxx | 12.22.08 - 6:17 pm | #
I thought incorrectly that would have been salient in your thoughts about Carter. For other veterans I have talked to, it generates white hot hate. It clouds the overall perspective.
Carter tried and failed. Bush has actively and consciously (this is the awful thing) undermined the things I care about most about my country.
He deserves to be despised and he will be.
Is there any legitimate case to be made for "global savings glut" theory?
Also, is this belief a fig leaf for some underlying neocon precept of which I am ignorant?
" Dirk van Dijk writes:
XXXX
How many of the hostages died? How many U.S. soldiers have died in Iraq? Panama canal is still operating, and overall our relationship with Latin America has been pretty good since (although Bush has certianly screwed it up a bit). Not saying he belongs on Rushmore, but relative to W he is Abe friggin Lincoln.
S&L crisis, seems to me the jump in FDIC insurance to $100K happened unde RR, the lax oversight of the S&L's happened under RR and GHWB, big streatch to blame that on Carter.
Dirk van Dijk | 12.22.08 - 6:11 pm | # "
You obviously weren't paying much attention in 1977-80 (or you're simply lying). S&Ls were going out business left and right during that time frame. RR boosted the deposit insurance of the FSLIC (not the FDIC) to boost confidence and avoid bank runs, and relaxed regulation to allow the S&Ls to "grow" out of their predicament that resulted from 4 years of Jimmy Carter. Again, I realize that the MSM and you liberals have been lying about this since the re-emergence of this crisis under GHWB, but what I've said here is the truth.
As for the Panama canal, didn't one of Carter's successors have to send troops into Panama to straighten the situation out down there? Rhetorical question; the answer is yes, yet another example of Carter's incompetence.
As for dead soldiers, wouldn't that criteria make Lincoln or FDR our worst President? Rhetorical question; the answer is no, and neither does it make GWB a terrible President.
Your arguments are fallacious and specious.
As the fraud piles up (this from IndyMac)
Regulator Let IndyMac Backdate Infusion - WSJ.com
As the tip of the iceberg is slowly revealed....
P.S. I would like to take a moment to thank those who listened to Tanta, CR, etc, and bought F&F shares. You helped me more than you will ever know. May God bless you for you are going to need it!
Broker | 12.22.08 - 6:21 pm | #
Wow, where did CR or Tanta ever encourage anyone to buy any stock in anything? Link please.
Max | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 6:23 pm | #
Yeah esp FNM or FRE. Saying that they were not the primary culprits in this whole mess is far from a buy rec. Also I dont think anyone here claims that the GSE's were angels, yet on the scale of depravity in this whole thing, they were far from the worst, yet since they are the only thing that the GOP can plausably attach to the democrats (along with the CRA) there is a huge cottage industry being developed to pin 95% of the blame on them.
As I mentioned above, Fannie and Freddie have 1/7 the default rate of the rest of the mortgage business. If everything had gone through the GSEs we would never have gotten nearly as deep.
Fair Economist | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 5:42 pm | #
I was with you up to here, but it seems to me if everything had gone through the GSEs they wouldn't have had such low default rates.
" Anonymous writes:
Zephyr writes:
"Only President in history to serve during two recessions--let that sink in a bit."
and lose 2 wars. Iran would of made 3
Anonymous | 12.22.08 - 6:17 pm | # "
As someone else pointed out, Ike had 2 recessions, and since you've obviously been out of circulation for the last 18 months, we're winning in Iraq.
I was with you up to here, but it seems to me if everything had gone through the GSEs they wouldn't have had such low default rates.
Yalt | 12.22.08 - 6:30 pm | #
Or the loans would not have been made and the bubble would not have gotten so big.
Anyways, I'm out of here, time to go home.
Chiming in briefly -
And of course those "unprecedented" inflows of funds from outside were entirely precedented - cheap lending from overseas to U.S. speculators was one of the fuels for the big market bonfire in 1929, too. And thoroughly documented in the literature of the time and since.
-- and now back to winter vacations...
It's a pretty loney place to be
Tanin no kao (1966) - Memorable quotes
"Being free always involves being lonely"
The WH obviously didn't speak with any former FDIC examiners and investigators fired by Chairman Don Powell while Powell often proudly proclaimed "we are in a golden age of banking" during 2004 & 2005.
with almost no regulatory oversight (because of ideologues who opposed oversight and regulation)
CR finally gave me a WTF? moment. Talk about crappy analysis.
Try this on for size. A hell of a dispute for some lame "ideologue" conclusion.
History of Credit Derivatives
And to think that greed was a US phenomenon is laughable. The EU allowed so much leverage that it is indeed what kept the bubble going beyond 2002. Then the US freaked out about the so-called powerful European banks that allowing more leverage by US banks was a bipartisan effort; that kept the bubble going beyond 2004 - we forget how much jealousy there was seeing US banks being outsized by European and Asian banks and we didn't want to see more US banks swallowed up by foreigners. The ideology in that case is better-known as "penis envy".
lawyerliz writes:
People are starting to call me "prescient". Not that does me much good. I wish I knew where the high ground is.
It is that point of ground where the water no longer seeps into your shoes.
Relax everybody. They're all poor presidents. Just remember, there's no need for emotion. The winners write the history. (And yes I do remember the Carter years. I also remember the Eisenhower and Kennedy and Johnson and Ford and Nixon years. Sorry, you no more than myself.)
If the human race has a motto, it's this:
How was I supposed to know that?
you've obviously been out of circulation for the last 18 months, we're winning in Iraq.
xxxxx
HA!...HA!...HA! Winning the "war" in Iraq. Evidently you've been out of circulation for the last 18 months. Define win?
xxxxx,
Please head back to FOX news collect some more talking points and come back tomorrow
xxxxx | 12.22.08 - 6:27 pm
You sound just like Karl Rove ...
Is that you Karl ?
People are starting to call me "prescient"
Are you planning to run in 2012?
.
Wow, where did CR or Tanta ever encourage anyone to buy any stock in anything? Link please.
Max | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 6:23 pm | #
If they did I missed it. Somebody's sniffing their socks.
The quote was that "almost no one saw" which is in effect true if you consider the group statistically with their sample set as the entire US populatios.
" Red Pill writes:
Ya' know, I'd forgotten all about that. One more reason I can't stand that clown.
xxxxx | 12.22.08 - 6:17 pm | #
I thought incorrectly that would have been salient in your thoughts about Carter. For other veterans I have talked to, it generates white hot hate. It clouds the overall perspective.
...
Red Pill | 12.22.08 - 6:25 pm | # "
I'm a vet, but not a Vietnam vet, so it doesn't sting quite as badly. I was a vet during the last 2 Carter years, and the first 2 Reagan years. I was there (at West Point) the day that the hostages came back, and I saw RR address the Class of 81 the following Spring.
I know what socialized medicine is like have been to hospitals in the Army and VA, and remember Staff Sergeants having to work extra jobs just to feed their families while Carter was President, and younger soldiers married having to live in the barracks in order to get by and as a result, I will NEVER, EVER, EVER vote for any democrat for as long as I live.
Dirk said:
Bush screwed up in so many ways that you need string theory to get to all the dimensions
Dirk van Dijk | 12.22.08 - 5:53 pm
+5 bonus points!
In all the multiverse, we got the prize pony.
Comrade Volker the Viking
Bunch of freaked out die hard Bushies here today ...
They are getting paid to resurrect Bush's Legacy ...
Epitaph for the economy:
"Here, hold my beer and watch this!"
I have interacted very closely with addicts and alcholics due to some projects I work on.
George Bush has a well documented history of substance abuse and shows all the signs of being what's known as being a "dry" drunk. Ie. not using anything physically but not changing the thought processes that go on behind the addictive cycle. He continually displays an ability to deny reality, a refusal to change his thoughts/actions in spite of overwhelming evidence that another path, an unwillingness to take counsel from those who know more than he does, lack of humility, lack of inner reflection, lack of empathy for those around him.
I believe that a lot of the worst decisions Bush has made can be directly related to the character flaws above that he displays.
This just gives us a tiny little advanced peep into what will be in the Bush SMU library. More Christian values and little else...
Oh my god, does GW read the NYT?
For those of you who think I'm a ringer or a shill, I'm not, but I do have a job as a industrial designer for a privately held electronics company; at least for now.
I know what socialized medicine is like have been to hospitals in the Army and VA, and remember Staff Sergeants having to work extra jobs just to feed their families while Carter was President, and younger soldiers married having to live in the barracks in order to get by and as a result, I will NEVER, EVER, EVER vote for any democrat for as long as I live.
xxxxx | 12.22.08 - 6:38 pm | #
I remember topping off every vehicle in the Battalion (I was Support platoon Leader), scrounging for toilet paper so we could wipe our ass, breaking up a rip-off at our Brigade Fuel Point at gun point (I was Asst. S-4 and saved my Brigade Commander's ass from several of his oversights.), I remember having to steal batteries from Division Issue so that our mine sweepers worked and we could therefore pass readiness, I remember lots of other esoteric things but it doesn't matter.
Some day, and that day may never come, you will vote for a democrat, just as I have, and think--this guy's different.
xxxxx,
If you act like a shill ... you will be known as one
I've seen that theory advanced before and it certainly does explain the disconnection from reality suggested by his 'exit interviews' (including Sunday's in the Wall Street Journal)
Pissed Off In California writes:
I have interacted very closely with addicts and alcholics due to some projects I work on.
George Bush has a well documented history of substance abuse and shows all the signs of being what's known as being a "dry" drunk. Ie. not using anything physically but not changing the thought processes that go on behind the addictive cycle. He continually displays an ability to deny reality, a refusal to change his thoughts/actions in spite of overwhelming evidence that another path, an unwillingness to take counsel from those who know more than he does, lack of humility, lack of inner reflection, lack of empathy for those around him.
I believe that a lot of the worst decisions Bush has made can be directly related to the character flaws above that he displays.
Pissed Off In California | 12.22.08 - 6:39 pm
undamentally, capitalism presumes ethical dealings based on a sound moral compass.
Since we are all human, the capitalistic model is an ideal to be strived for. We'll never get there though since we are all human and prone to errors and temptation and 'ethical lapses'.
Same can be said for "democracy", "socialism", "regulation", "civilization", etc.
That's why the "ideologue" angle is so lame. You wanna call the Bush Administration incompetent crooks? Fine, I'm right there with you. If you want to call them that because of their specific ideology, then you're just plain wrong. It isn't a specific ideology, it's EVERY ideology.
"As someone else pointed out, Ike had 2 recessions, and since you've obviously been out of circulation for the last 18 months, we're winning in Iraq."
We intended to set up a Shia-dominated government in Baghdad with strong ties to Iran, while diverting our main forces from other global theaters of interest?
We intended to permit a third-rate power like Iran to gain so much influence?
If it weren't for Gen. Petraeus, who realized that the victory of the Shia opened up an avenue for the cooptation of the Sunni, we'd be in worse trouble.
Maybe we've won in Iraq, and maybe we've just squeezed the air in the balloon into a different corner.
Think globally.
mmckinl writes:
Comrade Volker the Viking
Bunch of freaked out die hard Bushies here today ...
Wah? What do you know, that I don't know?
I've seen that theory advanced before and it certainly does explain the disconnection from reality suggested by his 'exit interviews' (including Sunday's in the Wall Street Journal)
comrade swan | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 6:43 pm | #
Actually if you look at the interaction between Bush and the people he surrounds himself with in the WhiteHouse it is a classic example of the co-dependent relationship that is so common in social groups that interact with alcholics.
If nominated I will not run, if elected I will not serve.
Hehehehehe.
I'm sure someone reads it to him Jennifer. Or, someone told him it said a bad thing about him.
Now, bye, can't stand haloscan.
" Anonymous writes:
you've obviously been out of circulation for the last 18 months, we're winning in Iraq.
xxxxx
HA!...HA!...HA! Winning the "war" in Iraq. Evidently you've been out of circulation for the last 18 months. Define win?
Anonymous | 12.22.08 - 6:35 pm | # "
If you got your news someplace reputable, and not from the DailyKOS, you'd know better. Even your Obamessiah realizes that we're winning, though he's loathe to admit it.
Bush's Legacy ...
Bush has no legacy. A legacy is that which you leave behind and he hasn't even left yet. It will take years and millions of revisionist contributions. Think about Hoover's legacy. He inheirited the "Roaring 20s" with policies set in motion with Wilson. He went forward with many of the stimulus programs credited to his successor. We judge him very poorly. Wilson? Not so much. FDR? The savior for being there when a war did what his policies could not.
Wah? What do you know, that I don't know?
Comrade Volker the Viking
~~~~
All this , including the article is about Bush's attempt to rewrite history to put him in a more favorable light ...
It's well known ... PR for Bush's exit ...
an ability to deny reality, a refusal to change his thoughts/actions in spite of overwhelming evidence that another path, an unwillingness to take counsel from those who know more than he does, lack of humility, lack of inner reflection
Damn, man.
You just described America.
Sometimes a fantasy...
Is all you need.
.
Bushcoodanode
"Why aren't there any criminal investigations of the deadbeat borrowers?"
Because there is little if any recovery available. Most of the defaulting borrowers cannot pay.
Zephyr | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 5:58 pm | #
A rather more fundamental reason is that not being able to pay back a loan is not a crime.
(I don't mean to give any credence to the initial, false, statement that there have been no criminal investigations of borrowers...just pointing out that there needs to be an allegation of crime to trigger an investigation.)
the Dems' Community Reinvestment Act
Although its been addressed by other commentators, criticizing the CRA is just plain dumb.
All the CRA did was attempt to stop the practice of banks making zero loans in "bad" postal codes. The idea being that even bad neighborhoods have some credit-worthy people trying to make a go of it - price the risk accurately instead of just saying "forget it". The CRA's contribution to the credit run-up was close to nil.
ice. blame it on foreign hot money flows. set up the arguments for currency exchange controls in advance of the coming mass dollar exodus.
standard excuse all governments use before a devaluation,
Weak leaders result in 'groupthink'.
Nixon and Bush.
At least Kennedy was a confident son of a gun that ignored the right letter in defiance of the generals (From Khrushchev)
If McCain dies before 2012, realize how close we came to the abyss.....
Pissed Off In California writes:
I've seen that theory advanced before and it certainly does explain the disconnection from reality suggested by his 'exit interviews' (including Sunday's in the Wall Street Journal)
comrade swan | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 6:43 pm | #
Actually if you look at the interaction between Bush and the people he surrounds himself with in the WhiteHouse it is a classic example of the co-dependent relationship that is so common in social groups that interact with alcholics.
Pissed Off In California | 12.22.08 - 6:45 pm | #
xxxx,
You are fooling yourself thinking that something can be won in Iraq.
So am I the only one buying GM bonds down here?
There is one apologist for Bush on here:
his name is xxxxx
He is attempting to divert attention away from the failure of George W Bush and his administration and his lack of accountability.
Why?
Do you really believe in Bush that much xxxxx?
Please explain your reasoning.
I am very curious as to your reasons for continuing to support Bush.
A rather more fundamental reason is that not being able to pay back a loan is not a crime.
As long as there was no misrepresentation in obtaining the loan. Aye, there's the rub.
How about this from Ed Rollins (Republican) on CNN
ROLLINS: I think there's no question if you're going to try to save this industry, which is an industry in real problems, you are going to have a lot more money that is going to be thrown at him. I think that's a lot of the objections of the Republicans.
I think the problem the president made here is he let it go to Congress. The Congress, his own party, basically, didn't want it. There's a few weeks before the new president comes in and this president is trying to be relevant. He doesn't want to be Herbert Hoover, he is going to be Herbert Hoover. I don't care what he says, or what Dick Cheney says, this president has damaged this economy and is going to go out with a tarnished record. I think the critical thing here is let the new Congress take charge and let the new president take charge and move it forward. Unfortunately, it is on their watch and it is a mess.
"I know what socialized medicine is like have been to hospitals in the Army and VA, and remember Staff Sergeants having to work extra jobs just to feed their families while Carter was President, and younger soldiers married having to live in the barracks in order to get by and as a result, I will NEVER, EVER, EVER vote for any democrat for as long as I live.
xxxxx"
I was in the army during Nixon/Ford/Carter/Reagan. Carter inheirited the mess from the Nixon/Ford administration. Military pay and living conditions were fucked at that time also.
Does that mean that I should never vote for a Republican again?
You do come across like a shill!
xxxxx writes:
For those of you who think I'm a ringer or a shill, I'm not, but I do have a job as a industrial designer for a privately held electronics company; at least for now.
You are far worse than a ringer or shill.
You are a stupid moron.
Tanta! TAANNNNTAAAA!!
This White House statement calls out for a response from
TAANNNNTAAAAAAAAA
The ideology in that case is better-known as "penis envy".
Charles Kiting | 12.22.08 - 6:34 pm | #
Or, as I've come to think of it after reading this thread, "xxxxx envy".
heh.
I agree about Bush vs Carter. Carter was a brilliant man, but a terrible president. Bush is just a terrible president.
That amounts to "My false god is better than your false god."
Speed Racer | 12.22.08 - 6:54 pm | #
Ford was Pres. when I went in and you are correct, sir. It was unilateralist disarmament from them and exacerbated by Carter and SALT II.
Funny, ain't it? How some people can come here full of emotion and not know it's not necessary to be so. We are in charge. We don't have to get emotional. Emotional people get excluded.
I don't have any worries that the history will be accurately written. I'm writing one for the period and you're all in it.
You are a stupid moron.
Wow. You really told him.
I think Tanta may have thrown her shoes at the press secretary after this release
You are a stupid moron.
repukes_suck | 12.22.08 - 6:54 pm | #
Second that.
"Please explain your reasoning.
I am very curious as to your reasons for continuing to support Bush.
Ticker Tape of Doom | 12.22.08 - 6:50 pm | # "
Actually, I'm not that fond of him. He's led my party astray. We (well, most of us Republicans) didn't want all of this spending we got with GWB and Tom DeLay. My Dad refused to vote for President this year because he was so disgusted with the last 8 years.
Unlike, believe it or not, my democrat friends here in the PR of Massachusetts, I was against the Iraq war because I thought we had no business opening up another front while the outcome in Afghanistan was still up in the air. In other words, for purely strategic reasons. However, once we were there, I felt like we should support our troop's efforts AND mission.
I never liked his father, who like GWB, is a liberal in Republican clothing. I think they're calling them neocons now.
However, the original question was whether or not Bush was the worst President ever, and I contend that that "honor" goes to Jimmy Carter.
"They are getting paid to resurrect Bush's Legacy ...
mmckinl "
True. The White House has even resurrected Karen Hughes to try to manage Bush's "legacy". Your tax dollars at work.
People like xxxx get paid to post on blogs like this...
Mall Report from Santa Monica Promenade
I drove to the Third Street Promenade this afternoon to buy a couple of presents that I can't get on line, and see if I could pick up a deal at the Circuit City BK sale.
All parking lots were full with cars backed up a block behind the entrances, waiting for spaces to open up. More cars orbiting looking for open lots. I can't tell how much people were actually buying, but did see some people carrying multiple bags as they hiked into the adjacent neighborhoods; towards their cars, I guess. Large mobs crossing the streets, very hard to make turns at intersections.
I gave up without parking and came home. Consumerism is apparently still healthy around here, anyway.
deteriorating
thread
Think about Hoover's legacy. He inheirited the "Roaring 20s" with policies set in motion with Wilson.
Which conveniently waves away the two Republican presidents in between. Oh, and the 1918-1921 recession.
Do you actually belief the crap you spout?
Of topic but my Mortgage Pig shirt came today - got the polo - very nice quality!!
CVV, you brought to mind a question. Do you think history will be much more difficult to manipulate now that we have are in the "information age", where everybody has access to huge piles of information at their finger tips? My fear we will see more revisionist history in our textbooks of the future, similiar to the revisionist history they spoon fed me like so much pablum as a child in the 70's.
People are starting to call me "prescient". Not that does me much good. I wish I knew where the high ground is.
Hopefully you tell these people that all you are doing is math with available figures that anyone else can do.
holy crap, it's the return of ipodius!!!
I knew there was a certain douchiness about this xxxxx character that seemed awfully familiar.
Ha Gary, can't be ipodius, he hasn't insulted me personally yet.
give it time,k, give it time
Re: Bush and addiction. I should also point out that Bush became a born-again Christian and "claimed" that it helped him over-come his addiction. As I stated previously I have dealt with many addicts and alchohics and in that time have only met a single person who succesfully dealt with addiction through religion. I have met many though who succesfuly transplanted their addictive tendencies and beliefs from a physical substance to a meta-physical substance via blind adherence to a religion without ever succesfully dealing with the underlying issues driving the addiction. Sadly many of them fail following this method (as many rumors of drinking by Bush again would indicate).
Not that religion is good or bad, just no replacement for dealing with issues truthfully when it comes to addiction.
CVV, you brought to mind a question. Do you think history will be much more difficult to manipulate now that we have are in the "information age", where everybody has access to huge piles of information at their finger tips? My fear we will see more revisionist history in our textbooks of the future, similiar to the revisionist history they spoon fed me like so much pablum as a child in the 70's.
Comrade Kristina | 12.22.08 - 7:03 pm | #
Yes, and most of the revisions will come from nobodies like me and you. Start writing, don't worry about whether anybody reads it, just report, and leave it at that--reporting.
"True. The White House has even resurrected Karen Hughes to try to manage Bush's "legacy". Your tax dollars at work.
People like xxxx get paid to post on blogs like this...
fried | 12.22.08 - 7:02 pm | # "
You mean I could be paid for this!
Only an ostrich could fail to see this coming. The financial sirens (not referring specifically to Tanta) were wailing back in 2005, not to mention Volkers Washington Post editorial. Oh the humanity!
xxxxx,
Thanks for your response. I really appreciate it - your reasoning is sound.
The topic at hand though is not really who is the worst president in history.
It is Bush's response to our current situation. Which basically amounts to - I couldn't have node.
Therefore absolving himself of any responsibility.
You have to excuse me, but this response sounds like the reaction of a petulant teenager.
I am a card carrying social liberal / fiscal conservative who agreed with you up and until it was made brutally obvious that George Bush thinks he will be considered a successful president ... that pushed him past Carter.
Laughable hubris trumps lusting hearts
xxxxx writes:
"Please explain your reasoning.
I am very curious as to your reasons for continuing to support Bush.
Ticker Tape of Doom | 12.22.08 - 6:50 pm | # "
Actually, I'm not that fond of him. He's led my party astray. We (well, most of us Republicans) didn't want all of this spending we got with GWB and Tom DeLay. My Dad refused to vote for President this year because he was so disgusted with the last 8 years.
Unlike, believe it or not, my democrat friends here in the PR of Massachusetts, I was against the Iraq war because I thought we had no business opening up another front while the outcome in Afghanistan was still up in the air. In other words, for purely strategic reasons. However, once we were there, I felt like we should support our troop's efforts AND mission.
I never liked his father, who like GWB, is a liberal in Republican clothing. I think they're calling them neocons now.
However, the original question was whether or not Bush was the worst President ever, and I contend that that "honor" goes to Jimmy Carter.
xxxxx | 12.22.08 - 7:01 pm | #
However, the original question was whether or not Bush was the worst President ever, and I contend that that "honor" goes to Jimmy Carter.
Carter was a great president compared to Bush.
Bush has already lost the war in Iraq. Secret Iran won everything there.
The Taliban is winning in Afghanistan and we will get out soon if we dont want to end up like Russia in 1990.
The Military Industrial complex and Neocons have destroyed this once great country.
I gave up without parking and came home. Consumerism is apparently still healthy around here, anyway.
| \t12.22.08 - 7:02 pm | #
\t sm_landlord | \t \t \tHomepage
Where teardowns near the water still sell for a million five? I'd be surprised if it weren't.
You are a stupid moron.
Gary | 12.22.08 - 7:01 pm | #
And your nose is very ... big.
"If McCain dies before 2012, realize how close we came to the abyss....."
Too late. We are there.
"I was in the army during Nixon/Ford/Carter/Reagan. Carter inheirited the mess from the Nixon/Ford administration. Military pay and living conditions were fucked at that time also.
Does that mean that I should never vote for a Republican again?
.....
Speed Racer | 12.22.08 - 6:54 pm | # "
The mess you describe was from the democrats in congress after Watergate. The Republicans only had 20 or so senators at the time, and had little say in policy.
As long as there was no misrepresentation in obtaining the loan. Aye, there's the rub.
Rob Dawg | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 6:51 pm | #
Not everyone that's in default misrepresented. Among those that did, law enforcement resources are going to be concentrated on:
(1) fraud for profit, as opposed to fraud for housing
(2) larger-scale operations
(3) rings with one or more operatives inside the industry (title agent, appraiser, broker)
There's plenty of that to keep the law busy; I don't see any reason to waste a lot of resources chasing down everybody who left a blank space next to their income for the broker to fill in.
Bush profited from the subprime industry...his donor and pal Bob Arnall, of Ameriquest and Argent mortgages, donated 12 million to Bush's campaign and inaugural...Arnall was appointed Ambassador to the Netherlands on the same day he agreed to pay 325 million to 49 states' attorney generals for his company's business practices.
Nothing about the scummy tactics of subprime lenders was a surprise to Bush.
There's a lot to dislike about Ron Paul, but his existence in Congress the last 4 years certainly blows holes in the "hoocoodanode" excuse.
The entire cause of the recession is the Community Redevelopment Act which required prudent bankers to loan to poor people.
I know this is true because I heard Sean Hannity say so - no ifs,ands, or buts.
{/anger}
Jim
" Comrade Kristina writes:
Ha Gary, can't be ipodius, he hasn't insulted me personally yet.
Comrade Kristina | 12.22.08 - 7:04 pm | # "
Actually, I haven't insulted anyone, though I've been insulted a lot (apparently, I'm a moron, though I did somehow manage to be appointed to the U.S. Military Academy, a.k.a. West Point). I suspect that this is because these kids have run out of coherent arguments.
FFS, can the sophomoric political bullshit arguing from both sides please be moved to some other site?
If Mountain Mama heard the term 'cascading cross defaults' she would probably think it was describing the Castro Street Fair
Zephyr writes:
"If McCain dies before 2012, realize how close we came to the abyss....."
Too late. We are there.
Zephyr | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 7:08 pm
" fried writes:
Bush profited from the subprime industry...his donor and pal Bob Arnall, of Ameriquest and Argent mortgages, donated 12 million to Bush's campaign and inaugural...Arnall was appointed Ambassador to the Netherlands on the same day he agreed to pay 325 million to 49 states' attorney generals for his company's business practices.
Nothing about the scummy tactics of subprime lenders was a surprise to Bush.
fried | 12.22.08 - 7:10 pm | # "
If y'all want to know who was benefiting from the likes of Goldmnan Sachs, look here:
Goldman Sachs: Summary | OpenSecrets
Doesn't look like Republicans to me!
xxxxx, for the last time Shaun Hannity is calling, he has more BS for you
"Where teardowns near the water still sell for a million five? I'd be surprised if it weren't."
--Bob Dobbs
Based on the last few months of sales numbers, this is where teardowns near the water don't sell any more. The local housing market has been frozen up since last summer, because the stuck speculators won't lower their prices. Also there are hundreds of houses and condos either in pre-foreclosure or with tax liens.
I had actually expected to see a slowdown, and catch a break on parking this year. Oh Well.
Based on the last few months of sales numbers, this is where teardowns near the water don't sell any more. The local housing market has been frozen up since last summer, because the stuck speculators won't lower their prices. Also there are hundreds of houses and condos either in pre-foreclosure or with tax liens.
sm_landlord | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 7:19 pm | #
If only Prop 8 had failed you could have expected a blizzard of newly married couples buying every available teardown north of Montana.
It's actually not a Republican or Democrat thing. It's just that the media and various partsan wingnuts are painting that way. The bad policy was mostly bipartisan, and not new to the last decade.
The real issue is the irresponsible Federal Reserve policy that created this financial crisis.
As long as we are more intent on proving that the other party's idiots were more to blame than our own party's idiots we will never see the real problems - and never learn from our mistakes.
" Crewman writes:
xxxxx, for the last time Shaun Hannity is calling, he has more BS for you
Crewman | 12.22.08 - 7:18 pm | # "
Why is it that there is no room here for intelligent discussion? I haven't insulted anyone, except for Jimmy Carter, and I make no apologies for that.
I've simply pointed out some facts that as best I can tell, are true, and used them to explain why I think Jimmy Carter is the worst President of my lifetime. For that, I've been berated, and it looks as though it's killing the thread. Remember, I didn't bring up the issue of worst President. I've just contributed to the discussion. However, it appears that some folks don't want discussion; They just want to spout bile and have everyone agree with them.