Can we squeeze some more old/middle-aged (fat/chubby) white guys in that photo? I think it would add to the appropriateness as it is archived into the annuls of history.
Ponyless in NJ writes:
there is something in me that strongly wants to see some of these 'regulators' to be in prison.
Ponyless in NJ | 12.22.08 - 8:39 pm |
He probably won't even be fired. He was "removed from his current duties."
Note that Dochow was the same guy who ran interferrence for Charles Keating back in the 1980s, right up to the time Lincoln Savings went bust. Supposedly, the people at the OTS felt he had "rehabilitated" himself.
I know it's hard to resist the one line snarkfest a post like this evokes but could we hold off until there's either some analysis or additions in the comments first?
This information would have been most useful at a holiday party last Saturday sipping Syrah with a newly minted upper echelon former Countrywide employee. He was generally defensive of CFCs actions as being perfectly legal. I was polite in asserting that there are laws covering fidicuiary duty to which he had no answer. But what really floored me was his explanation of AAA tranching. He said that they knowingly put weaker loans in AAA slices and only felt that it was necessary that the total package perform as if it were AAA.
1 on the list of OTS of gifts to the crime families:
ruling that OTS supervision made state bank regulation unlawful through federal 'preemption', and then ruling that the US rules didn't need strengthening the way the states had found was needed to preserve solvency of the banks.
Apparently, many of you haven't been reading Mish Shedlock closely. He loves Ron Paul, thinks Krugman is a socialist, and has a very simple solution to the current crisis.
The root cause of all of the financial market problems are:
Government Regulation
Fractional Reserve Lending
The Fed
Eliminate all three and we win!!!!!
Give Mish his Nobel!
Regarding the part about feeling it was ok, as long as the securities performed as AAA.....if that in fact had happened, wouldn't we not be quite as bad off as we are?
Regarding the part about feeling it was ok, as long as the securities performed as AAA.....if that in fact had happened, wouldn't we not be quite as bad off as we are? poster formerly known as nitpi | 12.22.08 - 9:01 pm | #
In my house we call that a s**t sandwich with honey on top.
Can you imagine what would have happened had any regulator said No, seriously No, to easy loan underwriting, easy mortgage lender capital rules, easy....
Angelo Mozilo, Barney Frank and Chris Dodd would have made a few calls. You don't want those calls.
Meanwhile China, reeling underneath at least a 30% drop in exports, nascent civil unrest, and severe rashs in unexplainable places, decides to kick the US in the shins.
GENEVA, Dec. 22 (Xinhua) -- China on Monday asked the World Trade Organization (WTO) to establish an expert panel to investigate U.S. anti-dumping and countervailing duties on Chinese products which may violate WTO trade rules
He was generally defensive of CFCs actions as being perfectly legal
Rob Dawg,
I was at a party last Saturday night and a crowd of wall streeters were unanimously blaming the housing crisis on consumers.
I spoke up and said the bankers clearly were responsible for most if not all of the blame. I explained that Bankers are paid to be gatekeepers, stewards of other peoples' money, to vet loans. Bankers tossed their responsibilities aside for yearly bonuses.
As you can imagine, my opinion went over like a fart in church. Screw um.
how many banks should have been closed already, that have not yet happened RayOnTheFarm | 12.22.08 - 9:13 pm | #
It won't happen. Paulson said the major financial institutions are stabilized. He meant it. Solvent or not, no more major banks in the US will fail. You just won't know how they manage to stay around.
GENEVA, Dec. 22 (Xinhua) -- China on Monday asked the World Trade Organization (WTO) to establish an expert panel to investigate U.S. anti-dumping and countervailing duties on Chinese products which may violate WTO trade rules
nova
The first shot of the protectionist trade war has been fired.
Yep, another roach popped out. How many deals were done farther down? The entire agency, just my guess, is rotten all the way through. How it usually works.
CR you have a banner ad from E-Trade. (I use E-Trade and like their platform) Can we rely on your 100% neutrality to present news relating to them? Even if in your excellent mind you are determined to be objective?
But what really floored me was his explanation of AAA tranching. He said that they knowingly put weaker loans in AAA slices and only felt that it was necessary that the total package perform as if it were AAA.
When you say "total package," it's ambiguous. Do you mean the slice that is rated AAA, should overall perform as if it were AAA, even if some of bits within it are not AAA? Because that doesn't sound that crazy to me...
RayOnTheFarm writes:
If OTS was cutting these kind of 'perks' for various banks... how many banks should have been closed already, that have not yet happened ?
RayOnTheFarm | 12.22.08 - 9:13 pm | #
At least nine. Although the ones I'm thinking of aren't regulated by OTS.
Dawg, Regarding the part about feeling it was ok, as long as the securities performed as AAA.....if that in fact had happened, wouldn't we not be quite as bad off as we are? Just wondering.. poster formerly known as nitpi | 12.22.08 - 9:01 pm | # The problem has always been their models. They got so disconnected from reality that it became impossible to stress test them. This comment just floored me. I always assumed that to anything in a AAA had to be discretely AAA but he was quite plain that a little melanimine in the baby formula was no big deal as long as it tested properly.
It is all part of the philosophy that claims that nothing good can come from the government. Therefore, the focus was on reducing the influence of the government in every possible area of social life - financial regulation, health care, Social Security, utilities, military. To every problem, whether it is budget surplus or budget deficit, the answer was always the same: "Reduce taxes and get the government out of the market's way"
Somehow the virtue of taking everything in moderation was lost on these people.
I don't read Mish, but does he really both say that we shouldn't have regulation AND that we shouldn't have fractional reserve banking? How do you prevent the latter without a heavy helping of the former?
Yogi,
I don't think CR gets to pick what adds show up on his page. He can kick them off but I think Google does the add picking. CR may clear this up.
I hate anything on the screen that blinks. I had a young airforce officer that worked for me that got booted out of training to be a BUF(B52) radar officer because the screens induced "flicker epilipsy". Nice kid. We had a lot of fun on the job.
GENEVA, Dec 22 (Reuters) - The United States blocked the creation of a panel at the World Trade Organisation (WTO) on Monday to resolve a dispute launched by China over U.S. measures against imports of certain steel pipes, tyres and woven sacks. Under WTO rules the creation of a panel can be blocked only once, so China will have another opportunity to create the panel at the next meeting of the body on Jan. 20.
This information would have been most useful at a holiday party last Saturday sipping Syrah with a newly minted upper echelon former Countrywide employee. He was generally defensive of CFCs actions as being perfectly legal. I was polite in asserting that there are laws covering fidicuiary duty to which he had no answer. But what really floored me was his explanation of AAA tranching. He said that they knowingly put weaker loans in AAA slices and only felt that it was necessary that the total package perform as if it were AAA.
Rob Dawg | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 8:57 pm | #
I always knew that the loan monkeys at CFC couldn't spell or define fiduciary, it's only mildly surprising that the execs are the same way.
Converting to the OTS charter made standards even more lax. It was scary at how duct tape and bailing wire the whole outfit was run.
China will never see their profits realized in the form of principal repayments on all those bonds. That's what happens when you poison your customers, their children, and their pets with lead and melamine; they tend to walk out on the bill.
I agree the fault was in the models, but is the "salesman" to blame for selling a new "product" that R&D and quality control swear is up to snuff? poster formerly known as nitpi | 12.22.08 - 9:23 pm | #
There's enough blame to go around. The sales side had a different problem. The compensation structure self selected for the least competent.
"Paulson said the major financial institutions are stabilized."
He means, of course, that they have been given the appearance of stability by the substitution of Federal guarantees for bank guarantees. The next administration can try to figure out how to unwind that issue. And the administration after that, probably. There is no exit strategy.
The problem has always been their models. They got so disconnected from reality that it became impossible to stress test them.
I actually think the reality was less cynical. Their models were tested on the last 5-10 years of actual data and performed well. When the nationwide prices never declined for any long period of time, how would you stress test your assumptions? One would have to go beyond statistical analyses and into more mainstream economics, which would have to look at income-to-price, rent-to-price and other ratios. This approach, however, is more subjective and suffers from the century old problem of "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
Your comment doesn't doesn't make any sense. Neither AAA nor BB "slices" have any particular mortgages in them. The mortgages are in a pool (the assets) and the rated bonds (the liabilities) have a claim on the cash flows from that pool (in different orders of priority hence the difference in rating), but not on any particular loan or group of loans from the pool. Moreover, individual mortgages are not rated on the Moody's or S&P scale. Did this guy really know what he was talking about?
MrM writes:
The problem has always been their models. They got so disconnected from reality that it became impossible to stress test them.
I actually think the reality was less cynical.
They knew exactly what was happening, all of them knew. AIG, CFC, all of them. That was their money on the line. What wealthy individual or better yet what wealthy group of individuals within the same industry do you know that has no idea what is going on with their finances? They knew.
But if they stopped it own their own their losses would of been huge but, if they mashed the gas pedal to the floor and flooded the world markets with even more worthless paper they would all then become " too big to fail"
ova, still working on it. I want to use this years tax returns, they need two and the year before last I only worked three months as I was a fulltime caregiver for my Mother after her stroke. That is also the reason my mortgage terms at persent are so awful. No mortgage or rent history for a year and no work for a year after Mom died. I'm walking a tight rope on timing this thing but I work well under pressure. If we get it, we're set, if not we lose the house. I guess I can deal with that...
My wife's nephew's girlfriend has been working as a waitress at Ruby Tuesday's in Altoona, Pa. She went to the staff Christmas party, and when she arrived the bosses were having their own meeting. After a while they emerged from the meeting and told the staff to finish their Christmas party in the parking lot, as the doors were closing immediately. End of job, end of restaurant.
My wife says R. T. might be a little high-end for Altoona, but not by that much.
I think that the FDIC has delayed the closing of banks, I think that the $2 trillion that Paulson refuses to tell about will be found to be T bills. That our country is in default. I expect a collapse of the dollar
I was relating CR's "weird regulatory structure" comment to the weird journalism structure we have, where the press competes for business from those it monitors, like the OTS. I clerked for a judge for a number of years and have struggled with extremely difficult problems of objectivity. I certainly trust CR's motives but constant vigilance is required.
Their models were tested on the last 5-10 years of actual data and performed well. When the nationwide prices never declined for any long period of time, how would you stress test your assumptions? MrM | 12.22.08 - 9:31 pm | # I actually wrote those exact same sentences but trimmed them for brevity. You are correct. The thing is I make "models." If my models fail a few people die maybe a few dozen worst case. For some reason I could see that thir models had unreliable boundary conditions but they had physicists who got As in advanced math classes where I only got Bs. It was massively irresponsible to not design these systems to "fail elegantly" in extreme situations.
Brian - A possible explanation could be that CFC was cherry-picking weaker mortgages into securitized pools and was keeping better mortgages on its books. I am not saying that was what they did, but that could explain those comments.
"Apparently, many of you haven't been reading Mish Shedlock closely."
Whether you agree with Mish or not, he certainly laid it out today and he is dead right on some key points. First, both Keynsians and monetarists were clueless about the credit bubble forming, and second, all their prescribed 'fixes' have been complete failures and third, they proudly and blindly continue to do further damage while insisting they are correct in spite of damning evidence.
We'll see thirty or forty years of books written after all this is over and the face of mainstream economics will have changed. It has to; the current failure is too large and too evident.
Yep, these asshats were drinking up bigtime through summer, going by the dogtags on necks and hips, and I was lunching at the sportsbar with them on G St, indulging in naughty pursuits like sandwiches and soda with lime. Swear to dog, it looked like pitcher after pitcher arrived.
But if they stopped it own their own their losses would of been huge but, if they mashed the gas pedal to the floor and flooded the world markets with even more worthless paper they would all then become " too big to fail"
They believed in their models. You could watch the shift from cocky, arrogant SOB behavior in early 2007, to outright panic in early 2008.
Anyone else notice that the bigger problems began when math geeks determined they could 'model' outcomes with accuracy?
Personal relationships and common sense were shelved in favor of FICO scores and probability analysis.
Taleb's Black Swan isn't isolated to finance. Icons in every field will be smashed. Tobacco is a wonder drug just waiting to be discovered. Global warming is a myth. Democracy is a cruel joke.
My little countrified bank has assets of $500 mil, return on equity of 22%, overcapitalized and risk averse.
Establish a personal relationship with a good banker and there are no problems. FDIC insurance socialized banking and dumbed down due diligence by bankers and customers alike.
Sorry to say but the guy on the street has been mis-educated. Jains would say purposely so. Perhaps.
The quiet Americans should be asking questions and getting reasonable answers. CR's blog should prosper for decades...
He means, of course, that they have been given the appearance of stability by the substitution of Federal guarantees for bank guarantees. The next administration can try to figure out how to unwind that issue. And the administration after that, probably. There is no exit strategy. wally | 12.22.08 - 9:29 pm | #
MrM: "I actually think the reality was less cynical.... One would have to go beyond statistical analyses and into more mainstream economics, which would have to look at income-to-price, rent-to-price and other ratios. "
MrM, that is true for the lower level bankers, but should not be true for the people nearer the top at the bigger institutions. They understood a lot. I've worked with people in the financial services, and the top ones with finance backgrounds are fully capable of seeing all that we're talking knowing all about here. It just wasn't convenient, and there was just enough subjective uncertainty to justify going along. Recall Chuck Prince's "as long as the music is playing you have to keep dancing"?
I think Rob Dawg's point about the models is crystal clear. If you model something and it tests AAA, you cannot then dilute it down and assume the aggregate will also be AAA. The reason is obvious: there is some assumed failure rate already built into AAA; you have to deny the viability of your own model to claim AAA plus trash will also be AAA.
Thanks nitpi and nova, I'll be ok one way or the other. I have my husband and my health and no kids to worry over other than my fur babies. I do get upset thinking about what will happen if I lose the house and my animals have to be let go. I also care for my 77 year old Uncle, he'll be homeless but he's empoverished enough that he should be able to get into a home of some sort. I try not to think about it and hope for the best...Bless you guys for your kind thoughts.
Anyone else notice that the bigger problems began when math geeks determined they could 'model' outcomes with accuracy?
Ross
I would slightly modify this - math models are pretty good at estimating the lower risk boundary but not really good at estimating the upper risk boundary.
Brian - A possible explanation could be that CFC was cherry-picking weaker mortgages into securitized pools and was keeping better mortgages on its books. I am not saying that was what they did, but that could explain those comments.
MrM | 12.22.08 - 9:40 pm | #
The loans CW Bank was cherry picking were California Option ARMS. But, they had they were they best of the best, gold standard, loans with a minimum FICO of 700, IIRC. No need to worry.
I do believe that the lying will stop.. Maybe I am wrong , but I think it should be obvious the present administration knows a lot about lying Crewman | 12.22.08 - 9:49 pm | #
OK, FE.
The current administration knows a lot about lying. I think the truth is so bad, the new administration will maintain the status quo. I have no doubt about that. There is too much money in this lie. :-/
"Exactly - and this is why proper regulation is essential. Choosing creativity at the expense of stability does backfire.
MrM | 12.22.08 - 9:44 pm | #"
MrM, for more regulation to result in system that would fail elegantly under extreme stress, the people making the regulations have to be extremely competent at economics and finance, and must be motivated only by the greater good. Now take a look at those committees in Congress that are the ones who actually make the rules we all have to live under.
Was it Churchill who said that democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others? I am thinking that maybe free enterprise is the worst form of economic organization, except.... Not a popular thought here, right now, but it may be correct.
Every complex culture you've ever heard of has perished from its own pride, corruption, exhaustion and recklessness. It's wired into us. Homo sapiens is the wise guy. The only way to cut short this process is to imitate the social insects, who have evolved some of the only long-lived societies. I think the critical question of the coming century will be whether or not we want to remain human.
Thanks all, so many of you have been so helpful in so many ways. I've made some wonderful aquaintences here with some very intelligent, thoughtful people. I've learned much and hope that at least my anecdotal commentary is helpful. I can also make a mean drink
Hey SAG members : keep this mind before you authorize vote to strike. You might not get much public support. Ah, what am I talking about..., don't worry, the Governator is on the case ! Which one is he? The botoxed Austrian riding inthe Humvee that runs on cooking oil.
surprised not to see anyone point any fingers at the other banking agencies. does one really think the ots was a acting in isolation? start turning over the rocks at the other banking agencies -- it will be interesting to see what crawls out.
where was the fdic? it has a very serious role in its prevention businesses (supervision and insurance divisions). no one has questioned bailout bair about why the insurer was not taking any actions to curb the excessive risk of insured institutions. the fdic's insurance division, formed after the last crisi, is supossed to issue analyses on the state of the industry. where are those analyses (they stopped publishing the semi-annual industry analysis in 2006). where were the front-line fdic supervision examiners? what type of exams and ratings were they issuing? has bailout bair done anything to improve the fdic's front-line supervision program. have they hired experienced examniers or greatly expand the budget to perform exams? unfortunately, we all know the answers to these questions.
MrM, You certainly pointed out that little self-interest problem. My only contribution was an opinion that the lower level bankers were mostly guilty of ignorance, whereas the top guys were much more likely to be cynics.
"I've spent my life trying to be an ant, but I can't figure it out. I think it is the two leg thing."
It's two late for you Elvis. And for me. But antennae and six legs are not necessary. Only the loss of personal freedom and the desire for it are necessary. The rest is a matter of technology.
patientrenter: for more regulation to result in system that would fail elegantly under extreme stress, the people making the regulations have to be extremely competent at economics and finance, and must be motivated only by the greater good. Now take a look at those committees in Congress that are the ones who actually make the rules we all have to live under.
Somehow the regulation works reasonably well in construction and aviation. However, those industries do not have massive lobbies, like finance or pharma do.
"Thanks all, so many of you have been so helpful in so many ways. I've made some wonderful aquaintences here with some very intelligent, thoughtful people. I've learned much and hope that at least my anecdotal commentary is helpful. I can also make a mean drink
Comrade Kristina"
Just Wait, the icing on the cake with be the Banker funded parties attended by the OTS officials with the high end-escorts and free booze. World economy brought down by free blowjobs.
Ants will form suicidal ant bridges to allow the colony to cross streams, but the Mormon Locust will turn to cannibalism when protein is scarce. (Tip to TG or TJ). Our DNA is dying to replicate, but some humans will starve themsleves to death to make a point, in service to the collective survival of the DNA of the species.
Nah Elvis, I'm a CR addict, I'm not going anywhere unless he starts charging to post, I can barely afford groceries at this point...I'll still lurk even if I can't post though.
"Superhuman through gene modifcation. Of course, only certain individuals will qualify."
Superhuman in what way? In charity, hope and faith? Or in cruelty, selfishness and pride? If the latter, then there won't be much room on the planet for more than a few super-people. Maybe only one lonely,crazy superman.
Well "tippers" are preferred of course! I can't complain though, I work in a small lounge with an older clientel. Many are retired military, I regularly make 30-50% of my ring in tips, or should I say did before the "crisis". Now it's more like 25-35%
yogi: "Our DNA is dying to replicate, but some humans will starve themsleves to death to make a point, in service to the collective survival of the DNA of the species."
I think you just said it twice in one sentence, first short and sweet, then long and labored. Pavel is raising our standards here, yogi.
"Many are retired military, I regularly make 30-50% of my ring in tips, or should I say did before the "crisis". Now it's more like 25-35%
Comrade Kristina "
Those guys have pensions that aren't being reduced. It should still be 30-50%. Remind them of that.
Well the retirees only make up about 40% of my clientel. I'm regularly getting a handful of nickels, dimes, pennies and pocket lint from others now that used to tip well. I'm also getting the "I'll catch you next time, it's kind of tight this week" regularly as well...signs of the times from across the bar...
"Comrade Kristina writes:
Well the retirees only make up about 40% of my clientel. I'm regularly getting a handful of nickels, dimes, pennies and pocket lint from others now that used to tip well."
That is kind of crappy, but, if you save enough pocket lint, you can knit a sweater.
The first of the Iraqi contractor scams are just starting to make it to the courts. Those cases are about fraud, and personal benefit in the millions.
What is coming, in my opinion, is going to make those look small. None of these assholes will have the sense of honor that will have them blowing their brains out tho.
Just Wait, the icing on the cake with be the Banker funded parties attended by the OTS officials with the high end-escorts and free booze. World economy brought down by free blowjobs.
sue | 12.22.08 - 10:01 pm | #
I thought that was Interior . . . OTS getting in on that action too?
(I have no doubt they did - and recall also that interior employees were getting free blow as well as bjs)
"Pavel, I love your comments. Who else could have come up with that ant thing?"
Thanks, patientrenter. Aldous Huxley and many others came way before me. The outer party of 1984 were on their way to anthood.
I don't mean that people will literally choose to be insects, like the Fly. I mean they might exchange human freedom for a society in which most 'people' live the stereotypical behavior of instinct driven creatures, except perhaps, as Nova suggests, for an 'elite.'
It's one way out of the dilemma of creatures who find freedom to be a burden, and who can't manage to live without exploiting one another. The exploitation will remain, but it will be transformed through strict social control via genetics, perhaps, and other forms of manipulation.
I'm not saying at all that it's desirable, or that people will choose that path. But it will be tempting.
A group of investors that includes conservative talk show host Sean Hannity is suing the partners of an Atlanta real estate investment partnership, saying they reneged on repaying a loan for a failed townhouse project.
The lawsuit names Fortis Capital Partners LLC and partners Corey Fuller of Mableton and Charles E. Johnson of Chicago. It was filed Dec. 10 in Cobb County Superior Court
Sean HannityRecent headlines:
Fox's Hannity among group suing Atlanta developers
Cobb County news Kennesaw attorney Christopher Reeves said Hannity was one of the investors who on Nov. 1, 2007 loaned Fortis Capital $638,000 to develop the site of an old grocery store at 362 Ralph David Abernathy Blvd. in Atlantas Mechanicsville neighborhood into townhomes.
Fortis Capital was to pay monthly interest payments for a year, and repay the loan principal in full by Nov. 1, 2008.
The suit says Fortis Capital, Fuller and Johnson owe $44,098.23 in interest and late payments, in addition to the original loan principal.
Reeves said the townhouses were never built. Fuller and Johnson did not make interest payments from August through October, Reeves said.
ova, I am sure you just made an erudite allusion with that thar' cornfield. My knuckles scrape on the ground when I walk. What does your reference mean?
"Cobb County news Kennesaw attorney Christopher Reeves said Hannity was one of the investors who on Nov. 1, 2007 loaned Fortis Capital $638,000 to develop the site of an old grocery store at 362 Ralph David Abernathy Blvd. in Atlantas Mechanicsville neighborhood into townhomes."
If you loaned money on Nov. 1, 2007 to develop anything, you deserve to lose your money. Sucker.
Pavel Chichikov: I mean they might exchange human freedom for a society in which most 'people' live the stereotypical behavior of instinct driven creatures, except perhaps, as Nova suggests, for an 'elite.'
Those stereotypical "people" may not realize they lost their freedom. They will be happily slaving away for what they think is their dream: bigger houses, bigger cars, never-ending shopping.
patientrenter,
I think it means when society has crumbled, we will gather in a farmhouse in the middle of Iowa and create a new, better society. That or he is kinky.
Speaking of Yeager, I wonder if manned space exploration is canceled for the foreseeable future, because it will become too expensive for tight budgets.
Who is going to stop the bailout of the CRE speculators?
I thought not.
They are asking for $200 billion of your money. Where is the outrage? Or did that end a few threads ago, when most posters got into name-calling and personal attacks?
"Suicide is painless, it brings on many changes" But it's the cowards way out.
Story about a guy who ate his .32 in 1932. He was worth $18 mil in 29 and only had $1.2 mil left. He figured he was a failure even though he had gazillions by todays standards. It's all relative, I suppose but money is only a way to keep score in a game. Money is an illusion.
Maybe the 'elite' will come to the point at which they wonder why they should continue to exploit other people so as to amass wealth, when they can have the wealth without going to the trouble of exploitation.
But Tolkien said that there will be many defeats before the final victory.
MrM, thank you. You expressed what I was thinking in response to Pavel. Pavel, I think the chance of human society morphing into an ant colony-like social structure is greatly increased as human population increases. As we cover the globe more and more, we have to be ever more economical in what we use, and ever better at living in close quarters with each other. That, and the nearly unlimited capacity we have to grow enough food and avoid premature death, devalues individuals and puts a premium on the ant's emphasis of the good of the colony before the good of the individual ant.
I don't know. I thought it might have been something he said to the Inklings at the pub they used to gather at. Or something he wrote in a letter.
I heard it quoted by a friend who wrote a book about Tolkien, Joe Pearce.
I wish there were a good pub nearby. In far northwest DC, all you hear at night after nine is the sound of gears scraping as they reel in the sidewalks.
Whether or not "miseducation" is "planned" is worth exploring. I used to mistrust all the robber barons. But the more I encounter them the more I realize how many are merely trying to provide a safe environment for their family (individual DNA) and genuinely want to improve the general well-being (Madoff excluded, for now). Certainly any academic economist who presents a theory which justifies or aids his own status or that of his class is suspect, but more often it's a subconscious influence. The regulator from the OTS at issue may have thought he was doing the right thing for society as a whole.
It's no coincidence that the Lindbergh baby kidnapping caught the public's imagination in 1932. If you become worth a billion dollars, would you not hire armed guards and buy a castle to protect your babies in the coming times?
I wonder if manned space exploration is canceled for the foreseeable future, because it will become too expensive for tight budgets.
Canceled, no. Trimmed, maybe. NASA has done a good job of distributing manned space flight projects to enough populous states (CA, TX, FL, AL, OH, CO, Connnecticut(sp?), Maryland) to ensure significant political support. If Obama's economic game plan is Keynesian fiscal stimulus, manned space should be able to competently compete for some of that money. Hard to predict what exactly will happen though.
"In the southern climes where the weather is sultry, the favorite pastime is commiting adultry." Lord Byron commenting on Greece.
The world population will top out around 2156 per Herman Kahn. Spengler also noticed this phenom.
Uncle Ben Franklin mentioned a key to success for a young man was to marry a widow with many children. Back then, children were assets. They are now liabilities.
'Man' is a better economist than the intellects will ever admit.
"If Obama's economic game plan is Keynesian fiscal stimulus, manned space should be able to competently compete for some of that money. Hard to predict what exactly will happen though."
I'm all for it if at all affordable. It also might turn out to be more important than we can know now.
You said "year before last" That would be '06, no? They should be able to take '07 returns, plus '08 YTD- apply same percentage of write offs-if any; and average for 24 months. If that gets the DTI where it needs to be then that should work.
Best of luck! And my drinks are easy, Johnnie Walker Black, neat. And I tip and I love the Florida Panhandle.
The so-called 'natural' restraints on human growth are war, revolutions, abortion, ethnic genocide, cyclical global (credit) Depressions that cause famine, etc. But are these 'natural' or man-made or some of both?
I go back and forth, Kristina. But I did spend years mediating civil cases. There are some charitable landlords. Our revered Tanta was a money changer, no?
Can we squeeze some more old/middle-aged (fat/chubby) white guys in that photo? I think it would add to the appropriateness as it is archived into the annuls of history.
The strong performance of CRE CDOs issued
between 1999 and 2003 is likely due to the combination
of strong real estate performance over the past ten years
and the conservative approach taken by the rating
agencies when they assigned subordination levels to
CMBS deals issued between 1995 and 2000. As a result,
many CMBS bonds issued during that time have
experienced numerous upgrades, and at the lower rating
levels (single-B and below), bond ratings have actually
been upgraded or have remained more stable than
comparably rated bonds in the RMBS and ABS sectors
(see Chart 5).
Every complex culture you've ever heard of has perished from its own pride, corruption, exhaustion and recklessness. It's wired into us. Homo sapiens is the wise guy. The only way to cut short this process is to imitate the social insects, who have evolved some of the only long-lived societies. I think the critical question of the coming century will be whether or not we want to remain human.
Pavel Chichikov | 12.22.08 - 9:52 pm | #
I dig your style Pavel. I take great joy that a being such as myself an d my fellow Homo sapiens should evolve as a natural result of the workings of the Universe. We, a bit of this Universe that becomes conscious and curious about its own workings. I will take the pain of self awareness as well as the other follies of humanity any day over the life relinquished. Ni insect colony for me. If we destroy ourselves,. . . well hell, it was a great run wasn't it?
I am a scientist who came from a ranching family. I might have to return to the roots. . .
They are asking for $200 billion of your money. Where is the outrage?
I've pondered this many times since the bailout vote. Personally, I still find it hard to believe the predictable is actually unfolding. I'm becoming uncomfortably numb.
The so-called 'natural' restraints on human growth are war, revolutions, abortion, ethnic genocide, cyclical global (credit) Depressions that cause famine, etc. But are these 'natural' or man-made or some of both?
the guest | 12.22.08 - 10:49 pm | #
manned space should be able to competently compete for some of that money.
I'd rather see investment directed to more directly terrestrial applications, like robotic exploration.
Not that I don't want to see a team of brave explorers on Mars, but I think we need to make smarter, value-add intermediate-term investments right now.
As the demand for commercial real estate assets grew,
competition among Wall Street originators increased as
each needed to maintain a pipeline of loans they could
securitize.2 The combination of an increasingly
competitive lending environment and the lowest interest
rates weve experienced in over 40 years resulted in a
market that was awash in liquidity, which allowed
borrowers to demandand get concessions from lenders
in return for their business. These concessions include less
non-recourse carve-outs, fewer reserves, more IO loans,
lower DSCRs (debt service coverage ratios) and higher
leverage, as evidenced by the increased use of subordinate
debt. In fact, as of 2Q 2006, almost half of all securitized
CRE loans contain, or allow for, additional debt.
The West is living in a post industrial society. The transition from quantity to quality will take a couple of generations, no more.
"Freedom from want" is increasing very fast for the majority of the world's population. Within a generation, refridgeration and distribution logistics will probably ensure that few starve.
Red Pill,
Ethnic genocide is a choice made by killers. Saying this is natural is a sad statement on the human evolution of the human predators among us...
The Chinese have "chosen" a centrally planned method of controlling growth. It has pros and cons. The gold and ammo crowd have been watching too many Hollywood fantasies about a few heroes holding off the hordes. Expect to see more rag-tag bunch of misfits cooperate to beat the powerful bosses.
hey Comrade Kristina one of my buddies bartends here in las vegas at a locals gaming bar. obviously tips make up most of his pay but he still makes whatever the minimum is per hour. the owner is now 3 weeks behind on pay for the bartenders. the cooks are still getting paid. the bud guy came in to take the empty kegs and took a couple of full ones too because "you guys are behind on the bill." this on top of tips being way down.
this is (was?) a relatively successful business that spawned two other bars.
Pavel laid out (tongue in cheek?) the hypothesis that human society might be evolving toward the ant colony model. I guess the reason this caught my attention is that, even in my own lifetime, it feels right.
When I was young, kids would run around on their own with no adult supervision for hours every day. It was normal for people to run much higher risks one hundred years ago than they run today. I spent a few hours in Salem, MA this summer and read about how, at one point in the early 1800's, a very large portion of the male population had ventured extensively around the globe at a young age.
Are there fundamental drivers behind this change? I am wondering if it's related to the dramatic increase in human population and the capability to support it. In an environment where humans are scarce and kids are hard to raise through to productive adulthood, individuals are simply more valuable to society.
In an environment where humans are plentiful, and a complicated social structure support lots of complicated systems to keep increasing their number, the tables are turned and society is more valuable to individuals. Each must do whatever society at large requires of him or her. Hence, the ant colony.
reptillian wrote: Less regulation is good for business is analogous to fewer laws are good for criminals.
Huh? Fewer laws are good for everyone but the criminals. Criminals don't care about the laws: only the law-abiding citizens do. When there are less restrictions, there are less laws that criminals can take advantage of.
Take for example with conceal permit for handguns. Criminals will carry handguns regardless of what the law says. If guns were free for all, how many criminals will risk getting shot at? A lot less than they would be today where in most states, you can be almost 100% sure that the (law-abiding) victim won't be armed because it's against the law (or is non-trivial to get permission)!
Laws only help restrict the law-abiders and maybe even give a false sense of security to the law-abiders, but do nothing to stop criminals. The fact is, (most) crimes can only be punished after the fact -- although we seem to go more and more down the path of "pre-crime" prosecution (e.g., "terroristic" threats).
yogi,
Speaking of Hollwood, ever notice in the horror/gore films, pretty Americans are stupid as hell and always trust the cannibal killers and have minimal levels of suspicion when danger is close until they are being eaten or slashed. Sound familiar to reality?
Pavel Chichikov writes: \tIt's one way out of the dilemma of creatures who find freedom to be a burden, and who can't manage to live without exploiting one another. The exploitation will remain, but it will be transformed through strict social control via genetics, perhaps, and other forms of manipulation. Pavel Chichikov | 12.22.08 - 10:16 pm | # --- I love your writings, Pavel, and I look forward to reading your thoughts on this American Experiment as they play out. However, the Japanese called, and they wanted me to tell you that "strict social control" isn't working out too well for them. Since they cannot change their world due to the legacy of their caste system placed upon 'em hundreds of years ago, they are collectively chosing their only option: To not pass it on through low birth rates.
When a society's women would prefer to be old spinsters instead of listening to their biological impulses, you know something is wonky is going on...
but I think we need to make smarter, value-add intermediate-term investments right now.
The eternal civil space program debate post Apollo is manned versus unmanned space exploration. While I've worked in the manned space program for 18 years, I too want to see unmanned space programs properly funded. The engineers at JPL and Goddard do some remarkable work - some of the best out there.
I disagree. ....auto union bailouts were the first shots. \t RockyR | \t \t \t \t12.22.08 - 9:16 pm |
Another Hannity quoting idiot. How does a loan that gets the car companies thru the 1st quarter count as a bailout? How come a loan to companies that may account for as many 3 million real jobs for real people is a bad bailout, but a gift of 50TIMES AS MUCH to the banksters that caused all this is OK?
Ethnic genocide is a choice made by killers. Saying this is natural is a sad statement on the human evolution of the human predators among us...
the guest | 12.22.08 - 10:59 pm | #
Yes, yes. One of the greatest negative side effects of monotheistic religion is the belief that we (humans) are separate somehow from nature. In fact, everything we do is "natural."
The fact that we have naturally evolved some traits that are damaging in a modern society says nothing of their morality. We are not helpless. It is our choice to make moral judgments independent of our evolutionary legacy and we should do do. That is also natural. The evolutionary legacy is no excuse for the actions you cite.
We should not blind ourselves to the negative human traits. It is just naivete and willful ignorance. We should shape our culture to ameliorate these "evil" behaviors. And, well, some people are just nuts.
There is no "sad" or "happy" statement on human evolution; it just is.
However, the choices we make going forward will have happy or sad consequences. We will know because we will be happy or sad.
"When a society's women would prefer to be old spinsters instead of listening to their biological impulses, you know something is wonky is going on...
yagij"
Other poeple's kids are the best form of birth control.
2 outcast young male lions join forces to kill the alpha male. They immediately kill all the cubs. The females then immediately go into heat. Time is short. Other mammals share food and nursing duties in a seemingly socialist way. Monkees sneak off and copulate out of view of the Alpha male. We have no hard-wired strategies. The urge to replicate your own DNA, your clan's, and your species' all compete with one another. But consciousness is king.
China will never see their profits realized in the form of principal repayments on all those bonds. That's what happens when you poison your customers, their children, and their pets with lead and melamine; they tend to walk out on the bill. soxx | 12.22.08 - 9:27 pm | #
Really? What do you think the de-facto nationalization of FNM/FRE was all about? And the Treasurie's plan to buy up 600B in MBS to increase mortgage "affordability"?
Notice how the Treasury purchase of MBS goes up as China's MBS holdings drop?
China gave the walking orders to Paulson months ago. And he's been doing exactly what they ordered in the guise of "saving" American housing.
bobn, don't know if the car companies are worthy of a bailout or not, but giving cash money to a bankrupt business, or a nearly bankrupt one, feels like a bailout. Not worth fighting over the label, though.
I wonder what we will have when this burst of pump priming is seen by the public as, at best, another ponzi scheme. What if we are left with on going unemployment,a slide in the standard of living, and a bankrupt currency? The political fall out could go either way. A right wing dictatorship or a thread bare socialist society. Not a pleasent future.
MrM writes: \tOh, wait... MrM | 12.22.08 - 10:21 pm | # --- One of the axioms of human history is exactly that: It works until it doesn't.
I'm an amateur Chinese/Japanese history buff, and I must admit that the Chinese have had thousands of years to figure out a way to keep their "stereotypical people" freedomless and yet happy or content. As you probably know from the news coming out of China, they still haven't figured out how to make it work with Mother Nature's natural programming. In all honesty, I think it is what made our species the Top Dawg of the planet: It isn't ever good enough for us collectively. It is one of the reasons that I don't foreseen a permenant future that is "1984". Eventually--just like this blog--a group of people will see the Wizard of Oz for what he is, and it is there that everything starts to crumble.
And as soon as one group rests on its laurels, another group is ready to pounce on it. We are some kind of odd combination of Mormon Locusts, Canines, and Chimps. God was a Blessing Creator indeed!
Yogi, Your earlier comments touched on the "moral hazard" issue of those involved in this whole meltdown.
I've a few friends in the RE business on different levels:
1. Sr VP at CWC; intelligent, college drop out that was just greedy, in it for the easy money. He's retired at 49 and has a great financial legacy for his kids and new wife. Saw nothing wrong with making money, if he didn't do the job, somebody else would have. Morals have no place in his world.
2. RE appraiser; he was just a part of the machine, if there was a buyer and seller agreeing on a deal, who was he to stop it. Lots of pressure to do illegal things from the people that send you 99% of your regular business. Still barely working, hunkered down in a rental house.
3. Loan officer; in it only for the money. Met a lot of his clients at bars, talked them into refi, buy deals. He's moved on. Probably looking for the next big thing.
I agree with your sentiment, people want to look out for themselves, families, friends. Seldom do they want to think about the big picture, what is going on with society, or even their lives in the next year, that is someone else's job.
CR, in the upcoming Comment Reformation, could you consider adding open threads? I was going to make a comment or two about your post, but after 232 OT comments, I don't see the point.
Wow, what perfect scenery and props for the bloated, gloating corpora that befittingly represents our corporate-government mafia! Truly the best democracy that money can buy.
Red Pill,
And one of the greatest negative side affects of 'monothestic religion' as read in the Old Testament for example is that one tribe or 'race' or 'faith' is superior to another. The Old Testament has passages that elevate one people over another. So predatory behavior can be justified by faith in 'scared texts'. it is sad.
How does a loan that gets the car companies thru the 1st quarter count as a bailout? bobn | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 11:11 pm | #
It wouldn't. But it's not a loan if it doesn't have to be repayed. And since the terms do not have the force of law, it won't be. Therefore, it isn't a loan.
the old testament didn't say one race/faith is superior to another and it didn't elevate one people over another. the old testament saddled the jewish people with a responsibility, not a superiority. big difference.
Don't worry all the blogs are going through 'Comment Reformation'. It's called selective censorship or gatekeeping or keeping certain inquiries always 'off-topic' or taboo.
Another Hannity quoting idiot. How does a loan that gets the car companies thru the 1st quarter count as a bailout? How come a loan to companies that may account for as many 3 million real jobs for real people is a bad bailout, but a gift of 50TIMES AS MUCH to the banksters that caused all this is OK? bobn | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 11:11 pm | #
Yeah, I agree - Hannity is an idiot. OH, wait! That was directed at me. Chill out, man.
I don't really agree with any of the bail-outs because I don't think they'll work. But, agree with them or not, they are protectionist moves. Through the bail-out, you prop up your native industry. That is protectionism.
The so-called loan either a.) delays inevitable liquidation of the failed US auto makers or b.) punts the political hot potato to Obama to deal with. Either way, we'll be subsidizing the UAW for a long time to come.
Please go collect your toll elsewhere. Try to read the posts you flame before erupting next time.
The whole world of theology is a battle of Totems against Taboos. Taboos keep the King just and a river to his people.
Eat a cow, warship a cow, revile pork and eschew poligamy. Who the hell cares. Semetic peoples who share a common history but are divided between Catholics and Protestants. Jews and Moslems. Samo samo.
I disagree. ....auto union bailouts were the first shots.
RockyR | 12.22.08 - 9:16 pm |
Another Hannity quoting idiot. How does a loan that gets the car companies thru the 1st quarter count as a bailout? How come a loan to companies that may account for as many 3 million real jobs for real people is a bad bailout, but a gift of 50TIMES AS MUCH to the banksters that caused all this is OK?
bobn
Rocky beat me to it. My post that he responded to was about protectionism being displayed by China and he countered thay the Big 3 was prior and also protectionist. He was right. Look in the mirror bobn and say three times "I am an idiot for calling someone else who is obviously more intelligent than me an idiot"
TPTB have no idea how disgusted, furious, and perhaps, vindictive this whole situation makes the honest, hard working, rule-following people in our republic. i pay my fair share of taxes, i donate to charity, i study the issues and vote, i take very seriously the responsibility of citizenship. when i see such a high level of malfeasance, ignorance, abuse of power, and contempt of the public from our govt and its employees, it makes me want to see those MF'ers pay by serving prison time. have they no decency left?
Uffish Thought: Thanks for putting flesh and blood on the stereotypes we've been bantering about.
I think selfishness is omnipresent, and to be expected. It is from the very top of the food chain that we have a right to get a more farsighted and selfless view. That doesn't mean the top people must wear hairshirts. One the contrary, they must be allowed to be very prosperous and respected, as long as they remain farsighted and work diligently for the greater good.
I feel that I am chasing my tail... To get good decisions, we need good people as leaders. But we can only get good leaders if we choose them over the alternatives. It's back to us. Sigh... Time to say goodnight.
Ross,
I thought Arab terrorists were trying to kill us. We have been told and told and told we aren't safe in the Homeland.
Hey a currency depression will suck. Gotta keep buying perishables and energy. Will seashells and Kohl's clothing work?
Uffish, I don't doubt that all 3 have many redeeming charitable features. And they relied on time honored national myths created by authentic altruistic heros to justify their choices. When you're hungry, that's all consuming, and then you can never have too much cushion. I'm not saying the exec's who got the bonuses shouldn't be held accountable. There is value also in outright competition. Reforms can easily overshoot.
o, i meant the jews were saddled with a tremendous responsibility to their god. many rules, customs, rituals, etc, etc. when you look at Judaism closely, you realize the situation of being God's chosen people doesn't mean they are special, but means they are obligated with some very strict rules, customs, etc. that carry serious repercussions.
Craig,
Was the 'abuse of power' planned, allowed, or just a series of unintended mistakes? Assumptions or opinion here will determine how angry to get. Evidence is sketchy for now but coming.
Which genius thought it would be a good idea to let a billion-person country into the WTO without mandating a convertible currency? Cynical Dude | 12.22.08 - 11:38 pm | #
The same ones running the corporations that sold globalization as a salve for all of US problems?
abuse of power is mixed, some is malfeasance, some is unintended consequences. i'd venture to say (total SWAG) the mix is 70/30 in favor of malfeasance. that is what is so frustrating.
TPTB have no idea how disgusted, furious, and perhaps, vindictive this whole situation makes the honest, hard working, rule-following people in our republic. craig | 12.22.08 - 11:32 pm | #
The Powers That Be have no idea of the concept of social capital. If the burn through it, which they are, we will become just another Third World nation. In the Phillipines or Mexico, the rich have to high bodyguards to prevent their children from being kidnapped. In the US with our middleclass values, kidnapping is not a routine worry for most prosperous families, but this could change.
Yes and Christian rules carry serious 'consequences' for misbehavior as do most religions.
But dangerous deceptions leading to many deaths is still a problem in humanity and religious principles have failed to stop the insanity. If the insanity is organized, we are really screwed.
i really do see where you are coming from. i think about it often and realize it is a paradox of religion. however, I tend to focus on the balance of outcomes. religion causes humans to act good and bad, and IMHO it has caused far more good than bad in the course of human events.
if you offer more money, then the incentive to cheat to win is even greater, isn't it? doesn't that attract more dishonest actors? craig | 12.22.08 - 11:45 pm | #
I believe that Singapore's government made a conscious decision to pay government employee generously in order to keep the graft to a minimum. They also punish graft vigorously.
I know a whole lot of VERY bright folks, some on this blog that if pressed could not live on a congress critter's salary. Sure, demigods abound but today, one must have independent wealth or pruient money motives to run for high office. To my mind, both are suspect.
To my mind, governing should not be entrusted to the wealthy and wantabe wealthy that sell out for future benies.
Clearly all we need is more regulation.
That's really not that much red tape on those documents. Chainsaw is a bit of overkill isn't it?
Turd?
And here I thought the OTC, if not one of the "good guys", was at least not a "bad guy"...oh well...
OTS, I mean..
I actually like those huge scissors better.
there is something in me that strongly wants to see some of these 'regulators' to be in prison.
Ponyless...wouldn't hold my breath..
In answer to Nemo's snark, what we need is regulators who appreciate that their job is to regulate.
Under Bushco, the job has been to thwart enforcement at every turn.
Truly a sight to behold...
Gary,
But its clearly more "profitable" to NOT regulate, than to be a spoilsport and yank away the punch bowl!
Reporter error:
representatives of three banker trade associations:
Should be:
representatives of three banker crime families.
Can we squeeze some more old/middle-aged (fat/chubby) white guys in that photo? I think it would add to the appropriateness as it is archived into the annuls of history.
I think we now know why the commies called them 'capitalist pigs'.
mmmmm baco
When regulators compete, everybody wins.
Ponyless in NJ writes:
there is something in me that strongly wants to see some of these 'regulators' to be in prison.
Ponyless in NJ | 12.22.08 - 8:39 pm |
He probably won't even be fired. He was "removed from his current duties."
The OTC now looks more like the OTB.
OTS, less of a regulator and more of a Playboy playmate.
Note that Dochow was the same guy who ran interferrence for Charles Keating back in the 1980s, right up to the time Lincoln Savings went bust. Supposedly, the people at the OTS felt he had "rehabilitated" himself.
what regulations did they cut down in '03? and how do they relate to our present situation?or is this more baiting?
I know it's hard to resist the one line snarkfest a post like this evokes but could we hold off until there's either some analysis or additions in the comments first?
This information would have been most useful at a holiday party last Saturday sipping Syrah with a newly minted upper echelon former Countrywide employee. He was generally defensive of CFCs actions as being perfectly legal. I was polite in asserting that there are laws covering fidicuiary duty to which he had no answer. But what really floored me was his explanation of AAA tranching. He said that they knowingly put weaker loans in AAA slices and only felt that it was necessary that the total package perform as if it were AAA.
1 on the list of OTS of gifts to the crime families:
[google: OTS state banking rules}
So what was in it for them? Taking care of their futures?
Apparently, many of you haven't been reading Mish Shedlock closely. He loves Ron Paul, thinks Krugman is a socialist, and has a very simple solution to the current crisis.
The root cause of all of the financial market problems are:
Government Regulation
Fractional Reserve Lending
The Fed
Eliminate all three and we win!!!!!
Give Mish his Nobel!
I lost my comment on haloscan, however, It's not important...
To sum it up, our govt. has failed the American public.
I hate say it, but the Bush Administration will prove that the Grant Administration were rookies in failure to advance this country...
ova writes:
So what was in it for them?
The can was kicked down the road
Dawg,
Regarding the part about feeling it was ok, as long as the securities performed as AAA.....if that in fact had happened, wouldn't we not be quite as bad off as we are?
Just wondering..
The can was kicked down the road
Crewman | 12.22.08 - 9:01 pm |
Ah, never underestimate the desire to look good. Plus they were just helping their buddies. Just good ole boys smoothing over the rough spots.
So what have we learned today children?
That's right: rules are for suckers.
Regarding the part about feeling it was ok, as long as the securities performed as AAA.....if that in fact had happened, wouldn't we not be quite as bad off as we are?
poster formerly known as nitpi | 12.22.08 - 9:01 pm | #
In my house we call that a s**t sandwich with honey on top.
What was in it for them?
Can you imagine what would have happened had any regulator said No, seriously No, to easy loan underwriting, easy mortgage lender capital rules, easy....
Angelo Mozilo, Barney Frank and Chris Dodd would have made a few calls. You don't want those calls.
Couldn't a U.S. Attorney come up with some way to prosecute these guys? There are a lot of laws on the books.
I hope that if nothing else, no one will accept Wall Street or Economists are all knowing and justifying their out outrageous salaries.
Whats is even more important, is that common sense should now become the standard...
ova,
there will be much more of this come Feb.
Meanwhile China, reeling underneath at least a 30% drop in exports, nascent civil unrest, and severe rashs in unexplainable places, decides to kick the US in the shins.
English_Xinhua
GENEVA, Dec. 22 (Xinhua) -- China on Monday asked the World Trade Organization (WTO) to establish an expert panel to investigate U.S. anti-dumping and countervailing duties on Chinese products which may violate WTO trade rules
He was generally defensive of CFCs actions as being perfectly legal
Rob Dawg,
I was at a party last Saturday night and a crowd of wall streeters were unanimously blaming the housing crisis on consumers.
I spoke up and said the bankers clearly were responsible for most if not all of the blame. I explained that Bankers are paid to be gatekeepers, stewards of other peoples' money, to vet loans. Bankers tossed their responsibilities aside for yearly bonuses.
As you can imagine, my opinion went over like a fart in church. Screw um.
ova,
there will be much more of this come Feb.
Crewman | 12.22.08 - 9:07 pm |
Oh, I am sure. Going to be some squealin and dealin by fat white men coming to a federal office near you. At least, one can hope.
It's funny. I read about Tom De Lay cutting a pipeline deal for 1 or 2 million (billion?) and thought that the guy sold too cheaply.
god save us ?
If OTS was cutting these kind of 'perks' for various banks... how many banks should have been closed already, that have not yet happened ?
how many banks should have been closed already, that have not yet happened
RayOnTheFarm | 12.22.08 - 9:13 pm | #
It won't happen. Paulson said the major financial institutions are stabilized. He meant it. Solvent or not, no more major banks in the US will fail. You just won't know how they manage to stay around.
GENEVA, Dec. 22 (Xinhua) -- China on Monday asked the World Trade Organization (WTO) to establish an expert panel to investigate U.S. anti-dumping and countervailing duties on Chinese products which may violate WTO trade rules
nova
The first shot of the protectionist trade war has been fired.
RayOnTheFarm | 12.22.08 - 9:13 pm
Yep, another roach popped out. How many deals were done farther down? The entire agency, just my guess, is rotten all the way through. How it usually works.
god save us ?
Crewman
He already did. This is heave
Dochow or Dokow....but what's in a name anyway.
The first shot of the protectionist trade war has been fired.
Anonymous | 12.22.08 - 9:15 pm | #
I disagree. ZIRP + auto union bailouts were the first shots.
CR you have a banner ad from E-Trade. (I use E-Trade and like their platform) Can we rely on your 100% neutrality to present news relating to them? Even if in your excellent mind you are determined to be objective?
But what really floored me was his explanation of AAA tranching. He said that they knowingly put weaker loans in AAA slices and only felt that it was necessary that the total package perform as if it were AAA.
When you say "total package," it's ambiguous. Do you mean the slice that is rated AAA, should overall perform as if it were AAA, even if some of bits within it are not AAA? Because that doesn't sound that crazy to me...
RayOnTheFarm writes:
If OTS was cutting these kind of 'perks' for various banks... how many banks should have been closed already, that have not yet happened ?
RayOnTheFarm | 12.22.08 - 9:13 pm | #
At least nine. Although the ones I'm thinking of aren't regulated by OTS.
I Believe Krugman,
I suggested the same thing further up the thread...
There has got to be money, hookers, and viagra in this story somewhere. These guys did it for more than a love of free market insanity.
I disagree. ZIRP + auto union bailouts were the first shots.
RockyR
Yes. I thought the same thing as I was writing that.
It's just a game. It's been played for centuries.
Banksters today are pussycats compared to the guys in the game in the 1820's.
The China announcement timed for Obama?
Dawg,
Regarding the part about feeling it was ok, as long as the securities performed as AAA.....if that in fact had happened, wouldn't we not be quite as bad off as we are?
Just wondering..
poster formerly known as nitpi | 12.22.08 - 9:01 pm | #
The problem has always been their models. They got so disconnected from reality that it became impossible to stress test them. This comment just floored me. I always assumed that to anything in a AAA had to be discretely AAA but he was quite plain that a little melanimine in the baby formula was no big deal as long as it tested properly.
The China announcement timed for Obama?
nova
They don't like him or his statements re: their currency
It is all part of the philosophy that claims that nothing good can come from the government. Therefore, the focus was on reducing the influence of the government in every possible area of social life - financial regulation, health care, Social Security, utilities, military. To every problem, whether it is budget surplus or budget deficit, the answer was always the same: "Reduce taxes and get the government out of the market's way"
Somehow the virtue of taking everything in moderation was lost on these people.
How many fat, white, male banker-types can you squeeeze into one photo? Was the clown-car unavailable?
my first thought when I read it too nova...Obama did say something about stricter enforcement on those type things..
MrM is for Maimonides?
I don't read Mish, but does he really both say that we shouldn't have regulation AND that we shouldn't have fractional reserve banking? How do you prevent the latter without a heavy helping of the former?
Dawg,
I agree the fault was in the models, but is the "salesman" to blame for selling a new "product" that R&D and quality control swear is up to snuff?
Anonymous writes:
god save us ?
Crewman
He already did. This is heaven
It's not how mommy said it would be..
Yogi,
I don't think CR gets to pick what adds show up on his page. He can kick them off but I think Google does the add picking. CR may clear this up.
I hate anything on the screen that blinks. I had a young airforce officer that worked for me that got booted out of training to be a BUF(B52) radar officer because the screens induced "flicker epilipsy". Nice kid. We had a lot of fun on the job.
I'm afraid 2009 will make 2008 look good in more ways then one
What this country needs is a good old fashioned witch hunt with drownings and burnings at the stake.
It's not how mommy said it would be..
Crewman
She lied. Probably didn't love you either.
GENEVA, Dec 22 (Reuters) - The United States blocked the creation of a panel at the World Trade Organisation (WTO) on Monday to resolve a dispute launched by China over U.S. measures against imports of certain steel pipes, tyres and woven sacks.
Under WTO rules the creation of a panel can be blocked only once, so China will have another opportunity to create the panel at the next meeting of the body on Jan. 20.
This information would have been most useful at a holiday party last Saturday sipping Syrah with a newly minted upper echelon former Countrywide employee. He was generally defensive of CFCs actions as being perfectly legal. I was polite in asserting that there are laws covering fidicuiary duty to which he had no answer. But what really floored me was his explanation of AAA tranching. He said that they knowingly put weaker loans in AAA slices and only felt that it was necessary that the total package perform as if it were AAA.
Rob Dawg | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 8:57 pm | #
I always knew that the loan monkeys at CFC couldn't spell or define fiduciary, it's only mildly surprising that the execs are the same way.
Converting to the OTS charter made standards even more lax. It was scary at how duct tape and bailing wire the whole outfit was run.
Less regulation is good for business is analogous to fewer laws are good for criminals.
China will never see their profits realized in the form of principal repayments on all those bonds. That's what happens when you poison your customers, their children, and their pets with lead and melamine; they tend to walk out on the bill.
I agree the fault was in the models, but is the "salesman" to blame for selling a new "product" that R&D and quality control swear is up to snuff?
poster formerly known as nitpi | 12.22.08 - 9:23 pm | #
There's enough blame to go around. The sales side had a different problem. The compensation structure self selected for the least competent.
She lied. Probably didn't love you either.
Anonymous | 12.22.08 - 9:25 pm
They never do. It is what prepares us for life.
Less regulation is good for business is analogous to fewer laws are good for criminals.
reptillian
Pure gold reptillian, pure gold...
"Paulson said the major financial institutions are stabilized."
He means, of course, that they have been given the appearance of stability by the substitution of Federal guarantees for bank guarantees. The next administration can try to figure out how to unwind that issue. And the administration after that, probably. There is no exit strategy.
Comrade Kristina
Did the refi work out?
"Paulson said the major financial institutions are stabilized."
I think that means Jan 20, 2009 plus or minus a week or three.
The problem has always been their models. They got so disconnected from reality that it became impossible to stress test them.
I actually think the reality was less cynical. Their models were tested on the last 5-10 years of actual data and performed well. When the nationwide prices never declined for any long period of time, how would you stress test your assumptions? One would have to go beyond statistical analyses and into more mainstream economics, which would have to look at income-to-price, rent-to-price and other ratios. This approach, however, is more subjective and suffers from the century old problem of "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
Rob Dawg,
Your comment doesn't doesn't make any sense. Neither AAA nor BB "slices" have any particular mortgages in them. The mortgages are in a pool (the assets) and the rated bonds (the liabilities) have a claim on the cash flows from that pool (in different orders of priority hence the difference in rating), but not on any particular loan or group of loans from the pool. Moreover, individual mortgages are not rated on the Moody's or S&P scale. Did this guy really know what he was talking about?
ova writes:
"Paulson said the major financial institutions are stabilized."
I think that means Jan 20, 2009 plus or minus a week or three.
I am giving it two weeks after Jan, 20 for the poop to hit the fan.. So I am just finishing up planning
Crewman | 12.22.08 - 9:36 pm
What do you expect?
MrM writes:
The problem has always been their models. They got so disconnected from reality that it became impossible to stress test them.
I actually think the reality was less cynical.
They knew exactly what was happening, all of them knew. AIG, CFC, all of them. That was their money on the line. What wealthy individual or better yet what wealthy group of individuals within the same industry do you know that has no idea what is going on with their finances? They knew.
But if they stopped it own their own their losses would of been huge but, if they mashed the gas pedal to the floor and flooded the world markets with even more worthless paper they would all then become " too big to fail"
They k
ova, still working on it. I want to use this years tax returns, they need two and the year before last I only worked three months as I was a fulltime caregiver for my Mother after her stroke. That is also the reason my mortgage terms at persent are so awful. No mortgage or rent history for a year and no work for a year after Mom died. I'm walking a tight rope on timing this thing but I work well under pressure. If we get it, we're set, if not we lose the house. I guess I can deal with that...
Heart-warming anecdote, slightly OT but:
My wife's nephew's girlfriend has been working as a waitress at Ruby Tuesday's in Altoona, Pa. She went to the staff Christmas party, and when she arrived the bosses were having their own meeting. After a while they emerged from the meeting and told the staff to finish their Christmas party in the parking lot, as the doors were closing immediately. End of job, end of restaurant.
My wife says R. T. might be a little high-end for Altoona, but not by that much.
Comrade Kristina,
I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.
I think that the FDIC has delayed the closing of banks, I think that the $2 trillion that Paulson refuses to tell about will be found to be T bills. That our country is in default. I expect a collapse of the dollar
I was relating CR's "weird regulatory structure" comment to the weird journalism structure we have, where the press competes for business from those it monitors, like the OTS. I clerked for a judge for a number of years and have struggled with extremely difficult problems of objectivity. I certainly trust CR's motives but constant vigilance is required.
Their models were tested on the last 5-10 years of actual data and performed well. When the nationwide prices never declined for any long period of time, how would you stress test your assumptions?
MrM | 12.22.08 - 9:31 pm | #
I actually wrote those exact same sentences but trimmed them for brevity. You are correct. The thing is I make "models." If my models fail a few people die maybe a few dozen worst case. For some reason I could see that thir models had unreliable boundary conditions but they had physicists who got As in advanced math classes where I only got Bs. It was massively irresponsible to not design these systems to "fail elegantly" in extreme situations.
Brian - A possible explanation could be that CFC was cherry-picking weaker mortgages into securitized pools and was keeping better mortgages on its books. I am not saying that was what they did, but that could explain those comments.
"Apparently, many of you haven't been reading Mish Shedlock closely."
Whether you agree with Mish or not, he certainly laid it out today and he is dead right on some key points. First, both Keynsians and monetarists were clueless about the credit bubble forming, and second, all their prescribed 'fixes' have been complete failures and third, they proudly and blindly continue to do further damage while insisting they are correct in spite of damning evidence.
We'll see thirty or forty years of books written after all this is over and the face of mainstream economics will have changed. It has to; the current failure is too large and too evident.
Yep, these asshats were drinking up bigtime through summer, going by the dogtags on necks and hips, and I was lunching at the sportsbar with them on G St, indulging in naughty pursuits like sandwiches and soda with lime. Swear to dog, it looked like pitcher after pitcher arrived.
I am not making this hs!t up.
C
Comrade Kristina | 12.22.08 - 9:37 pm
You will be all right. It will work out.
But if they stopped it own their own their losses would of been huge but, if they mashed the gas pedal to the floor and flooded the world markets with even more worthless paper they would all then become " too big to fail"
They believed in their models. You could watch the shift from cocky, arrogant SOB behavior in early 2007, to outright panic in early 2008.
Anyone else notice that the bigger problems began when math geeks determined they could 'model' outcomes with accuracy?
Personal relationships and common sense were shelved in favor of FICO scores and probability analysis.
Taleb's Black Swan isn't isolated to finance. Icons in every field will be smashed. Tobacco is a wonder drug just waiting to be discovered. Global warming is a myth. Democracy is a cruel joke.
My little countrified bank has assets of $500 mil, return on equity of 22%, overcapitalized and risk averse.
Establish a personal relationship with a good banker and there are no problems. FDIC insurance socialized banking and dumbed down due diligence by bankers and customers alike.
Sorry to say but the guy on the street has been mis-educated. Jains would say purposely so. Perhaps.
The quiet Americans should be asking questions and getting reasonable answers. CR's blog should prosper for decades...
Rant off.
At the risk of being called a racist, f**k all fat white men in suits.
He means, of course, that they have been given the appearance of stability by the substitution of Federal guarantees for bank guarantees. The next administration can try to figure out how to unwind that issue. And the administration after that, probably. There is no exit strategy.
wally | 12.22.08 - 9:29 pm | #
Yup. My point exactly.
MrM: "I actually think the reality was less cynical.... One would have to go beyond statistical analyses and into more mainstream economics, which would have to look at income-to-price, rent-to-price and other ratios. "
MrM, that is true for the lower level bankers, but should not be true for the people nearer the top at the bigger institutions. They understood a lot. I've worked with people in the financial services, and the top ones with finance backgrounds are fully capable of seeing all that we're talking knowing all about here. It just wasn't convenient, and there was just enough subjective uncertainty to justify going along. Recall Chuck Prince's "as long as the music is playing you have to keep dancing"?
It was massively irresponsible to not design these systems to "fail elegantly" in extreme situations.
Rob Dawg
Exactly - and this is why proper regulation is essential. Choosing creativity at the expense of stability does backfire.
I think that means Jan 20, 2009 plus or minus a week or three.
Crewman | 12.22.08 - 9:36 pm | #
What do you expect is going to change on 1/20/2009?
I think Rob Dawg's point about the models is crystal clear. If you model something and it tests AAA, you cannot then dilute it down and assume the aggregate will also be AAA. The reason is obvious: there is some assumed failure rate already built into AAA; you have to deny the viability of your own model to claim AAA plus trash will also be AAA.
Obama becomes president
Thanks nitpi and nova, I'll be ok one way or the other. I have my husband and my health and no kids to worry over other than my fur babies. I do get upset thinking about what will happen if I lose the house and my animals have to be let go. I also care for my 77 year old Uncle, he'll be homeless but he's empoverished enough that he should be able to get into a home of some sort. I try not to think about it and hope for the best...Bless you guys for your kind thoughts.
Thanks Crewman.
At the risk of being called a racist, f**k all fat white men in suits.
dr munch
But what about Santa? I want my pony dammit...
crewman-
$2T? I keep wondering when the repo fails are gonna be mopped up.
That's good printin'. Um hmm.
OT overheard at a Home Depot today:
closing 50 more stores.
Kristina,
No pony for you...but how about a nice reindeer?
Obama becomes president
Crewman | 12.22.08 - 9:45 pm | #
A new man, a new suit. How will this change the situation with the major banks?
Anyone else notice that the bigger problems began when math geeks determined they could 'model' outcomes with accuracy?
Ross
I would slightly modify this - math models are pretty good at estimating the lower risk boundary but not really good at estimating the upper risk boundary.
Brian - A possible explanation could be that CFC was cherry-picking weaker mortgages into securitized pools and was keeping better mortgages on its books. I am not saying that was what they did, but that could explain those comments.
MrM | 12.22.08 - 9:40 pm | #
The loans CW Bank was cherry picking were California Option ARMS. But, they had they were they best of the best, gold standard, loans with a minimum FICO of 700, IIRC. No need to worry.
I do believe that the lying will stop..
Maybe I am wrong , but I think it should be obvious the present administration knows a lot about lying
Good luck Kristina. Sending you good karma from up north as well.
Comrade Kristina,
Dread Clampitt at the "Red Bar" in Grayton Beach always lifts my spirits.
Dread Clampitt
I do believe that the lying will stop..
Maybe I am wrong , but I think it should be obvious the present administration knows a lot about lying
Crewman | 12.22.08 - 9:49 pm | #
OK, FE.
The current administration knows a lot about lying. I think the truth is so bad, the new administration will maintain the status quo. I have no doubt about that. There is too much money in this lie. :-/
patientrenter - As I already quoted, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
Statistical analysis is hard to argue with. Scenario/economic analysis rests on assumptions, of which you have to convince others.
"Exactly - and this is why proper regulation is essential. Choosing creativity at the expense of stability does backfire.
MrM | 12.22.08 - 9:44 pm | #"
MrM, for more regulation to result in system that would fail elegantly under extreme stress, the people making the regulations have to be extremely competent at economics and finance, and must be motivated only by the greater good. Now take a look at those committees in Congress that are the ones who actually make the rules we all have to live under.
Was it Churchill who said that democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others? I am thinking that maybe free enterprise is the worst form of economic organization, except.... Not a popular thought here, right now, but it may be correct.
The last good regulators I saw were in an 80s Western.
Every complex culture you've ever heard of has perished from its own pride, corruption, exhaustion and recklessness. It's wired into us. Homo sapiens is the wise guy. The only way to cut short this process is to imitate the social insects, who have evolved some of the only long-lived societies. I think the critical question of the coming century will be whether or not we want to remain human.
"The only way to cut short this process is to imitate the social insects, who have evolved some of the only long-lived societies."
I've spent my life trying to be an ant, but I can't figure it out. I think it is the two leg thing.
MrM, Good point.
I do remember the panic of insurance accuaries in the 80's when AIDS was determined to have few mitigating outcomes. Pure panic.
My Aunt was an underwritter who told me in 1969 that Rock Hudson was Gay. We live and learn.
Thanks all, so many of you have been so helpful in so many ways. I've made some wonderful aquaintences here with some very intelligent, thoughtful people. I've learned much and hope that at least my anecdotal commentary is helpful. I can also make a mean drink
State Controller : California could be out of money in 2 months
Official says Calif. could be broke in 2 months
Hey SAG members : keep this mind before you authorize vote to strike. You might not get much public support. Ah, what am I talking about..., don't worry, the Governator is on the case ! Which one is he? The botoxed Austrian riding inthe Humvee that runs on cooking oil.
I've spent my life trying to be an ant, but I can't figure it out. I think it is the two leg thing.
Elvis | 12.22.08 - 9:54 pm | #
Or that huge mass in your cranium we call a "brain" thing. One or the other.
Comrade Kristina,
I'll have to make my way down to PC and "test your wares", LOL.
I think the critical question of the coming century will be whether or not we want to remain human.
No insects. Superhuman through gene modifcation. Of course, only certain individuals will qualify.
surprised not to see anyone point any fingers at the other banking agencies. does one really think the ots was a acting in isolation? start turning over the rocks at the other banking agencies -- it will be interesting to see what crawls out.
where was the fdic? it has a very serious role in its prevention businesses (supervision and insurance divisions). no one has questioned bailout bair about why the insurer was not taking any actions to curb the excessive risk of insured institutions. the fdic's insurance division, formed after the last crisi, is supossed to issue analyses on the state of the industry. where are those analyses (they stopped publishing the semi-annual industry analysis in 2006). where were the front-line fdic supervision examiners? what type of exams and ratings were they issuing? has bailout bair done anything to improve the fdic's front-line supervision program. have they hired experienced examniers or greatly expand the budget to perform exams? unfortunately, we all know the answers to these questions.
MrM, You certainly pointed out that little self-interest problem. My only contribution was an opinion that the lower level bankers were mostly guilty of ignorance, whereas the top guys were much more likely to be cynics.
RockyR writes
A new man, a new suit. How will this change the situation with the major
banks?
I think that most banks are insolvent. Obama might be more honest about it or he will be unable to stop the collapse he is inheriting
itpi, absolutely! I can use all the tippers I can get about now...Trying to make those paystubs look good for my refi
"I've spent my life trying to be an ant, but I can't figure it out. I think it is the two leg thing."
It's two late for you Elvis. And for me. But antennae and six legs are not necessary. Only the loss of personal freedom and the desire for it are necessary. The rest is a matter of technology.
patientrenter: for more regulation to result in system that would fail elegantly under extreme stress, the people making the regulations have to be extremely competent at economics and finance, and must be motivated only by the greater good. Now take a look at those committees in Congress that are the ones who actually make the rules we all have to live under.
Somehow the regulation works reasonably well in construction and aviation. However, those industries do not have massive lobbies, like finance or pharma do.
Pavel:
I presume by your comments that you'd prefer less human, more cockroach?
Or would fruit fly suffice?
I wanna be an old, fat, white guy in a suit. Those guys get all the money. Then they get all the gals. Then they reproduce. Then the gals eat them.
"Thanks all, so many of you have been so helpful in so many ways. I've made some wonderful aquaintences here with some very intelligent, thoughtful people. I've learned much and hope that at least my anecdotal commentary is helpful. I can also make a mean drink
Comrade Kristina"
Is that some kind of cryptic farewell?
Good Lord! I meant to write 'too.
"I presume by your comments that you'd prefer less human, more cockroach?"
Nope. That's not what I meant.
Just Wait, the icing on the cake with be the Banker funded parties attended by the OTS officials with the high end-escorts and free booze. World economy brought down by free blowjobs.
Ants will form suicidal ant bridges to allow the colony to cross streams, but the Mormon Locust will turn to cannibalism when protein is scarce. (Tip to TG or TJ). Our DNA is dying to replicate, but some humans will starve themsleves to death to make a point, in service to the collective survival of the DNA of the species.
Nah Elvis, I'm a CR addict, I'm not going anywhere unless he starts charging to post, I can barely afford groceries at this point...I'll still lurk even if I can't post though.
Kristina,
Was that "tippers", or "tipplers"? (Not that the 2 are mutually exclusive).
Pavel, I love your comments. Who else could have come up with that ant thing?
"World economy brought down by free blowjobs.
sue"
(Sorry, can't resist.) Sounds like an economy I'd like to live in.
World economy brought down by free blowjobs.
sue
It's amazing the trouble a little blow job can cause, isn't it?
"Superhuman through gene modifcation. Of course, only certain individuals will qualify."
Superhuman in what way? In charity, hope and faith? Or in cruelty, selfishness and pride? If the latter, then there won't be much room on the planet for more than a few super-people. Maybe only one lonely,crazy superman.
Wally says:
"both Keynsians and monetarists were clueless about the credit bubble"
Could you point out which Keynsian in either a regulatory position or an advisory position within the current administration were so clueless?
Well "tippers" are preferred of course! I can't complain though, I work in a small lounge with an older clientel. Many are retired military, I regularly make 30-50% of my ring in tips, or should I say did before the "crisis". Now it's more like 25-35%
patientrenter: the top guys were much more likely to be cynics
I agree. Chuck Prince knew full well what would happen when the music stopped playing. However, at that time bonuses did not have clawback provisions.
yogi: "Our DNA is dying to replicate, but some humans will starve themsleves to death to make a point, in service to the collective survival of the DNA of the species."
I think you just said it twice in one sentence, first short and sweet, then long and labored. Pavel is raising our standards here, yogi.
Thread music, for Elvis:
YouTube - Warren G - Regulate
Comrade Kristina writes:
World economy brought down by free blowjobs.
sue
It's amazing the trouble a little blow job can cause, isn't it?
I got to go now, my wife thinks I am in a porn chat room..
"Many are retired military, I regularly make 30-50% of my ring in tips, or should I say did before the "crisis". Now it's more like 25-35%
Comrade Kristina "
Those guys have pensions that aren't being reduced. It should still be 30-50%. Remind them of that.
Sorry Elvis,
You still could apply to the OTS, I doubt anything changed.
Hang in there Kristina. Retired military are some of the few that will get a pay raise next year.
As predicted, we now have Iraqi contractor style mismanagement and corruption. That's what happens when you hand out trillions in two months.
Well the retirees only make up about 40% of my clientel. I'm regularly getting a handful of nickels, dimes, pennies and pocket lint from others now that used to tip well. I'm also getting the "I'll catch you next time, it's kind of tight this week" regularly as well...signs of the times from across the bar...
OK, how about, precious little is hardwired: humanity is the battle to conquer DNA.
"Sorry Elvis,
You still could apply to the OTS, I doubt anything changed.
sue"
No need. I know a lot of pretty little realtors that are practically free.
Could you point out which Keynsian in either a regulatory position or an advisory position within the current administration were so clueless?
syvanen
Can we expand the search, please, and ask for Keynesians who were in positions of power in the US or the UK (clueless or not)?
"Comrade Kristina writes:
Well the retirees only make up about 40% of my clientel. I'm regularly getting a handful of nickels, dimes, pennies and pocket lint from others now that used to tip well."
That is kind of crappy, but, if you save enough pocket lint, you can knit a sweater.
wow - this thread has crashed harder than the S&P 500 on an October afternoon.
too soon?
The first of the Iraqi contractor scams are just starting to make it to the courts. Those cases are about fraud, and personal benefit in the millions.
What is coming, in my opinion, is going to make those look small. None of these assholes will have the sense of honor that will have them blowing their brains out tho.
Elvis,
Are you leading those poor realtors on...pretending to buy a house.
Just Wait, the icing on the cake with be the Banker funded parties attended by the OTS officials with the high end-escorts and free booze. World economy brought down by free blowjobs.
sue | 12.22.08 - 10:01 pm | #
I thought that was Interior . . . OTS getting in on that action too?
(I have no doubt they did - and recall also that interior employees were getting free blow as well as bjs)
ova, there is so much rot it's hard to keep track of the scandals anymore. Accountability is for peons...
"Are you leading those poor realtors on...pretending to buy a house.
sue"
No. Just giving them rides to work.
I wonder if someday all who post here will be drawn to house in a cornfield...
Pavel:
What did you mean? What are our options i/r/t the future of sapiens?
Unlike insects, the first thing we've got to stop doing is reproducing so much.
"Pavel, I love your comments. Who else could have come up with that ant thing?"
Thanks, patientrenter. Aldous Huxley and many others came way before me. The outer party of 1984 were on their way to anthood.
I don't mean that people will literally choose to be insects, like the Fly. I mean they might exchange human freedom for a society in which most 'people' live the stereotypical behavior of instinct driven creatures, except perhaps, as Nova suggests, for an 'elite.'
It's one way out of the dilemma of creatures who find freedom to be a burden, and who can't manage to live without exploiting one another. The exploitation will remain, but it will be transformed through strict social control via genetics, perhaps, and other forms of manipulation.
I'm not saying at all that it's desirable, or that people will choose that path. But it will be tempting.
Watching "The Right Stuff" on AMC while kibbitzing.
Chuck Yeager is mah heeroh.
But yes, honour needs to be restored. Banking is after all a matter of honour.
ova, that's kind of kinky, we're already getting accused of being a "porn blog" ha.
A group of investors that includes conservative talk show host Sean Hannity is suing the partners of an Atlanta real estate investment partnership, saying they reneged on repaying a loan for a failed townhouse project.
The lawsuit names Fortis Capital Partners LLC and partners Corey Fuller of Mableton and Charles E. Johnson of Chicago. It was filed Dec. 10 in Cobb County Superior Court
Sean HannityRecent headlines:
Fox's Hannity among group suing Atlanta developers
Cobb County news Kennesaw attorney Christopher Reeves said Hannity was one of the investors who on Nov. 1, 2007 loaned Fortis Capital $638,000 to develop the site of an old grocery store at 362 Ralph David Abernathy Blvd. in Atlantas Mechanicsville neighborhood into townhomes.
Fortis Capital was to pay monthly interest payments for a year, and repay the loan principal in full by Nov. 1, 2008.
The suit says Fortis Capital, Fuller and Johnson owe $44,098.23 in interest and late payments, in addition to the original loan principal.
Reeves said the townhouses were never built. Fuller and Johnson did not make interest payments from August through October, Reeves said.
ova, I am sure you just made an erudite allusion with that thar' cornfield. My knuckles scrape on the ground when I walk. What does your reference mean?
"Cobb County news Kennesaw attorney Christopher Reeves said Hannity was one of the investors who on Nov. 1, 2007 loaned Fortis Capital $638,000 to develop the site of an old grocery store at 362 Ralph David Abernathy Blvd. in Atlantas Mechanicsville neighborhood into townhomes."
If you loaned money on Nov. 1, 2007 to develop anything, you deserve to lose your money. Sucker.
Comrade Kristina writes:
nova, that's kind of kinky, we're already getting accused of being a "porn blog" ha.
My wife keeps a close eye on me...
patientrenter
Eurdite? No, more Stephen King. Sorry.
Elvis, maybe he way eating his own dogfood.
Pavel Chichikov: I mean they might exchange human freedom for a society in which most 'people' live the stereotypical behavior of instinct driven creatures, except perhaps, as Nova suggests, for an 'elite.'
Those stereotypical "people" may not realize they lost their freedom. They will be happily slaving away for what they think is their dream: bigger houses, bigger cars, never-ending shopping.
Oh, wait...
patientrenter,
I think it means when society has crumbled, we will gather in a farmhouse in the middle of Iowa and create a new, better society. That or he is kinky.
Hannity screwed over....so sad
"Chuck Yeager is mah heeroh."
I'm old enough to have seen one of the first jet aircraft. If people like Yeager still exist we might just pull out of this mess.
re: Fortis Capital/Sean Hannity
My personal rule of thumb:
Any organization with "capital" in the title doesn't know the first thing about it.
Perhaps both?
I wonder if someday all who post here will be drawn to house in a cornfield...
nova | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 10:15 pm | #
Well half of us to the house and the old lady, and jg, bearly, xxxxx, El Cliffo, Broward Horne, and a few others to Vegas.
I wonder which one is the Trashcan man?
Civilizations come and go. It's usually a North South thing.
Can't remember the poet but "In the southern climes where the weather is sultry, the favorite pastime is commiting adultry."
I think nova was referring to "Children of the Corn" actually.
Comrade Kristina writes:
I think nova was referring to "Children of the Corn" actually
It doesn't hurt to know a farmer who might be able to sell you something to eat
"I think nova was referring to "Children of the Corn" actually.
Comrade Kristina"
Malakai.
Here I thought he was referring to Field of Dreams
Well, actually just a general armegeddon Stephen King kind of theme works...
"It doesn't hurt to know a farmer who might be able to sell you something to eat
Crewman"
Or to know a farmer you can eat.
Or The Stand
Crewman, that's one of the reasons I'm hellbent on saving my property here in Florida. I can grow almost year round...
Speaking of Yeager, I wonder if manned space exploration is canceled for the foreseeable future, because it will become too expensive for tight budgets.
I'm not saying at all that it's desirable, or that people will choose that path. But it will be tempting.
Pavel Chichikov | 12.22.08 - 10:16 pm | #
.38, head. Much more tempting.
Who plays Randall Flagg? Paulson?
Ross-
Tennessee Williams while he was living in New Orleans?
Neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeemmmmmmmmmmmooooooooo!!!
Noooooooooooooovvvvvvvvvvvvvaaaaaaaaa!!!
Comrade Kristina writes:
Crewman, that's one of the reasons I'm hellbent on saving my property here in Florida. I can grow almost year round...
I live part time in Venice Fl, yard is not big enough to grow anything but...now that I know you I hope you can spare me some oranges
"Can't remember the poet but "In the southern climes where the weather is sultry, the favorite pastime is commiting adultry."
Ross "
I think it was Bill Clinton.
Elvis, that's just wrong on so many levels...
Meanwhile, the beat goes on.
Who is going to stop the bailout of the CRE speculators?
I thought not.
They are asking for $200 billion of your money. Where is the outrage? Or did that end a few threads ago, when most posters got into name-calling and personal attacks?
Just wondering.
It's not cheating if there are no rules.
OK, I give up.
I'm going to shopping for a farm.
Isn't that what those guys with the chainsaw were doing... getting rid of all the rules ?
sm_landlord writes:
Meanwhile, the beat goes on.
Who is going to stop the bailout of the CRE speculators?
I thought not.
They are asking for $200 billion of your money. Where is the outrage?
I gave up when they gave $200 billion to the hedge funds...carry o
"They are asking for $200 billion of your money. Where is the outrage?"
It is buried in the eggnog and other Christmas holiday cheer. The outrage will occur around the holidays celebrating the birth of Satan and Paulson.
"Suicide is painless, it brings on many changes" But it's the cowards way out.
Story about a guy who ate his .32 in 1932. He was worth $18 mil in 29 and only had $1.2 mil left. He figured he was a failure even though he had gazillions by todays standards. It's all relative, I suppose but money is only a way to keep score in a game. Money is an illusion.
".38, head. Much more tempting."
Property will not be permitted to damage itself.
Maybe the 'elite' will come to the point at which they wonder why they should continue to exploit other people so as to amass wealth, when they can have the wealth without going to the trouble of exploitation.
But Tolkien said that there will be many defeats before the final victory.
"Money is an illusion.
Ross"
Until they only take cash at the grocery store.
the birth of Satan and Paulson.
Elvis | 12.22.08 - 10:32 pm | #
..
So, Elvis, what do you get when you put Satan and Paulson together???
"But Tolkien said that there will be many defeats before the final victory.
Pavel Chichikov"
Was that through a hobbit?
sm_landlord, fwiw, i was aghast at the chutzpah, but I think they have abetter chance of seeing jesus than getting that bailout at this point.
At least, in the fashion they appear to be asking in.
At best (worst, for us common folk) they get Paulson to lean on their bankers.
"So, Elvis, what do you get when you put Satan and Paulson together???
norma"
Sodomy?
Outrage? Sorry, at this point I am saving my energy for the collapse.
LOL, Elvis.
MrM, thank you. You expressed what I was thinking in response to Pavel. Pavel, I think the chance of human society morphing into an ant colony-like social structure is greatly increased as human population increases. As we cover the globe more and more, we have to be ever more economical in what we use, and ever better at living in close quarters with each other. That, and the nearly unlimited capacity we have to grow enough food and avoid premature death, devalues individuals and puts a premium on the ant's emphasis of the good of the colony before the good of the individual ant.
At best (worst, for us common folk) they get Paulson to lean on their bankers.
Gary
No bailout, who owns the CRE if loans defaulted? Bondholders, bankers for pennies on the dollar.
"No bailout, who owns the CRE if loans defaulted?"
Me.
ova writes:
Outrage? Sorry, at this point I am saving my energy for the collapse
How soon?
"Was that through a hobbit?"
I don't know. I thought it might have been something he said to the Inklings at the pub they used to gather at. Or something he wrote in a letter.
I heard it quoted by a friend who wrote a book about Tolkien, Joe Pearce.
I wish there were a good pub nearby. In far northwest DC, all you hear at night after nine is the sound of gears scraping as they reel in the sidewalks.
Elvis, so we're pretty much still are dealing with a Bush and a Dick? XOX norma
Whether or not "miseducation" is "planned" is worth exploring. I used to mistrust all the robber barons. But the more I encounter them the more I realize how many are merely trying to provide a safe environment for their family (individual DNA) and genuinely want to improve the general well-being (Madoff excluded, for now). Certainly any academic economist who presents a theory which justifies or aids his own status or that of his class is suspect, but more often it's a subconscious influence. The regulator from the OTS at issue may have thought he was doing the right thing for society as a whole.
It's no coincidence that the Lindbergh baby kidnapping caught the public's imagination in 1932. If you become worth a billion dollars, would you not hire armed guards and buy a castle to protect your babies in the coming times?
"So, Elvis, what do you get when you put Satan and Paulson together???
Tammy Faye Baker
.
yogi, your post surprises me, I'm not feeling that charitable towards the robber barons personally...
I wonder if manned space exploration is canceled for the foreseeable future, because it will become too expensive for tight budgets.
Canceled, no. Trimmed, maybe. NASA has done a good job of distributing manned space flight projects to enough populous states (CA, TX, FL, AL, OH, CO, Connnecticut(sp?), Maryland) to ensure significant political support. If Obama's economic game plan is Keynesian fiscal stimulus, manned space should be able to competently compete for some of that money. Hard to predict what exactly will happen though.
"As we cover the globe more and more, we have to be ever more economical in what we use, and ever better at living in close quarters with each other."
Could be. I guess that's one possibility. But I tend to think that there are natural constraints on population growth past a certain point.
Pavel, disease and famine come to mind..,.
My last 3 brain cells kicked in.
"In the southern climes where the weather is sultry, the favorite pastime is commiting adultry." Lord Byron commenting on Greece.
The world population will top out around 2156 per Herman Kahn. Spengler also noticed this phenom.
Uncle Ben Franklin mentioned a key to success for a young man was to marry a widow with many children. Back then, children were assets. They are now liabilities.
'Man' is a better economist than the intellects will ever admit.
"If Obama's economic game plan is Keynesian fiscal stimulus, manned space should be able to competently compete for some of that money. Hard to predict what exactly will happen though."
I'm all for it if at all affordable. It also might turn out to be more important than we can know now.
Wasn't Lindbergh planning to run for public office?
"Pavel, disease and famine come to mind..,."
Yep. Those are among 'em.
Comrade K
You said "year before last" That would be '06, no? They should be able to take '07 returns, plus '08 YTD- apply same percentage of write offs-if any; and average for 24 months. If that gets the DTI where it needs to be then that should work.
Best of luck! And my drinks are easy, Johnnie Walker Black, neat. And I tip and I love the Florida Panhandle.
The so-called 'natural' restraints on human growth are war, revolutions, abortion, ethnic genocide, cyclical global (credit) Depressions that cause famine, etc. But are these 'natural' or man-made or some of both?
I go back and forth, Kristina. But I did spend years mediating civil cases. There are some charitable landlords. Our revered Tanta was a money changer, no?
Can we squeeze some more old/middle-aged (fat/chubby) white guys in that photo? I think it would add to the appropriateness as it is archived into the annuls of history.
Here ya go!
Sounds like BS to me:
The strong performance of CRE CDOs issued
between 1999 and 2003 is likely due to the combination
of strong real estate performance over the past ten years
and the conservative approach taken by the rating
agencies when they assigned subordination levels to
CMBS deals issued between 1995 and 2000. As a result,
many CMBS bonds issued during that time have
experienced numerous upgrades, and at the lower rating
levels (single-B and below), bond ratings have actually
been upgraded or have remained more stable than
comparably rated bonds in the RMBS and ABS sectors
(see Chart 5).
Every complex culture you've ever heard of has perished from its own pride, corruption, exhaustion and recklessness. It's wired into us. Homo sapiens is the wise guy. The only way to cut short this process is to imitate the social insects, who have evolved some of the only long-lived societies. I think the critical question of the coming century will be whether or not we want to remain human.
Pavel Chichikov | 12.22.08 - 9:52 pm | #
I dig your style Pavel. I take great joy that a being such as myself an d my fellow Homo sapiens should evolve as a natural result of the workings of the Universe. We, a bit of this Universe that becomes conscious and curious about its own workings. I will take the pain of self awareness as well as the other follies of humanity any day over the life relinquished. Ni insect colony for me. If we destroy ourselves,. . . well hell, it was a great run wasn't it?
I am a scientist who came from a ranching family. I might have to return to the roots. . .
They are asking for $200 billion of your money. Where is the outrage?
I've pondered this many times since the bailout vote. Personally, I still find it hard to believe the predictable is actually unfolding. I'm becoming uncomfortably numb.
The so-called 'natural' restraints on human growth are war, revolutions, abortion, ethnic genocide, cyclical global (credit) Depressions that cause famine, etc. But are these 'natural' or man-made or some of both?
the guest | 12.22.08 - 10:49 pm | #
One and the same.
manned space should be able to competently compete for some of that money.
I'd rather see investment directed to more directly terrestrial applications, like robotic exploration.
Not that I don't want to see a team of brave explorers on Mars, but I think we need to make smarter, value-add intermediate-term investments right now.
As the demand for commercial real estate assets grew,
competition among Wall Street originators increased as
each needed to maintain a pipeline of loans they could
securitize.2 The combination of an increasingly
competitive lending environment and the lowest interest
rates weve experienced in over 40 years resulted in a
market that was awash in liquidity, which allowed
borrowers to demandand get concessions from lenders
in return for their business. These concessions include less
non-recourse carve-outs, fewer reserves, more IO loans,
lower DSCRs (debt service coverage ratios) and higher
leverage, as evidenced by the increased use of subordinate
debt. In fact, as of 2Q 2006, almost half of all securitized
CRE loans contain, or allow for, additional debt.
The West is living in a post industrial society. The transition from quantity to quality will take a couple of generations, no more.
"Freedom from want" is increasing very fast for the majority of the world's population. Within a generation, refridgeration and distribution logistics will probably ensure that few starve.
Mankind is doing very well, thank you.
Red Pill,
Ethnic genocide is a choice made by killers. Saying this is natural is a sad statement on the human evolution of the human predators among us...
The Chinese have "chosen" a centrally planned method of controlling growth. It has pros and cons.
The gold and ammo crowd have been watching too many Hollywood fantasies about a few heroes holding off the hordes. Expect to see more rag-tag bunch of misfits cooperate to beat the powerful bosses.
hey Comrade Kristina one of my buddies bartends here in las vegas at a locals gaming bar. obviously tips make up most of his pay but he still makes whatever the minimum is per hour. the owner is now 3 weeks behind on pay for the bartenders. the cooks are still getting paid. the bud guy came in to take the empty kegs and took a couple of full ones too because "you guys are behind on the bill." this on top of tips being way down.
this is (was?) a relatively successful business that spawned two other bars.
bad sign.
Pavel laid out (tongue in cheek?) the hypothesis that human society might be evolving toward the ant colony model. I guess the reason this caught my attention is that, even in my own lifetime, it feels right.
When I was young, kids would run around on their own with no adult supervision for hours every day. It was normal for people to run much higher risks one hundred years ago than they run today. I spent a few hours in Salem, MA this summer and read about how, at one point in the early 1800's, a very large portion of the male population had ventured extensively around the globe at a young age.
Are there fundamental drivers behind this change? I am wondering if it's related to the dramatic increase in human population and the capability to support it. In an environment where humans are scarce and kids are hard to raise through to productive adulthood, individuals are simply more valuable to society.
In an environment where humans are plentiful, and a complicated social structure support lots of complicated systems to keep increasing their number, the tables are turned and society is more valuable to individuals. Each must do whatever society at large requires of him or her. Hence, the ant colony.
"bad sign.
sneering nihilist"
"No Gas Next 1000 Miles" -- bad sig
1 billion fewer parcels in mail this year
Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com
reptillian wrote: Less regulation is good for business is analogous to fewer laws are good for criminals.
Huh? Fewer laws are good for everyone but the criminals. Criminals don't care about the laws: only the law-abiding citizens do. When there are less restrictions, there are less laws that criminals can take advantage of.
Take for example with conceal permit for handguns. Criminals will carry handguns regardless of what the law says. If guns were free for all, how many criminals will risk getting shot at? A lot less than they would be today where in most states, you can be almost 100% sure that the (law-abiding) victim won't be armed because it's against the law (or is non-trivial to get permission)!
Laws only help restrict the law-abiders and maybe even give a false sense of security to the law-abiders, but do nothing to stop criminals. The fact is, (most) crimes can only be punished after the fact -- although we seem to go more and more down the path of "pre-crime" prosecution (e.g., "terroristic" threats).
yogi,
Speaking of Hollwood, ever notice in the horror/gore films, pretty Americans are stupid as hell and always trust the cannibal killers and have minimal levels of suspicion when danger is close until they are being eaten or slashed. Sound familiar to reality?
Pavel Chichikov writes:
\tIt's one way out of the dilemma of creatures who find freedom to be a burden, and who can't manage to live without exploiting one another. The exploitation will remain, but it will be transformed through strict social control via genetics, perhaps, and other forms of manipulation.
Pavel Chichikov | 12.22.08 - 10:16 pm | #
---
I love your writings, Pavel, and I look forward to reading your thoughts on this American Experiment as they play out. However, the Japanese called, and they wanted me to tell you that "strict social control" isn't working out too well for them. Since they cannot change their world due to the legacy of their caste system placed upon 'em hundreds of years ago, they are collectively chosing their only option: To not pass it on through low birth rates.
When a society's women would prefer to be old spinsters instead of listening to their biological impulses, you know something is wonky is going on...
but I think we need to make smarter, value-add intermediate-term investments right now.
The eternal civil space program debate post Apollo is manned versus unmanned space exploration. While I've worked in the manned space program for 18 years, I too want to see unmanned space programs properly funded. The engineers at JPL and Goddard do some remarkable work - some of the best out there.
I disagree. ....auto union bailouts were the first shots.
\t RockyR | \t \t \t \t12.22.08 - 9:16 pm |
Another Hannity quoting idiot. How does a loan that gets the car companies thru the 1st quarter count as a bailout? How come a loan to companies that may account for as many 3 million real jobs for real people is a bad bailout, but a gift of 50TIMES AS MUCH to the banksters that caused all this is OK?
Ethnic genocide is a choice made by killers. Saying this is natural is a sad statement on the human evolution of the human predators among us...
the guest | 12.22.08 - 10:59 pm | #
Yes, yes. One of the greatest negative side effects of monotheistic religion is the belief that we (humans) are separate somehow from nature. In fact, everything we do is "natural."
The fact that we have naturally evolved some traits that are damaging in a modern society says nothing of their morality. We are not helpless. It is our choice to make moral judgments independent of our evolutionary legacy and we should do do. That is also natural. The evolutionary legacy is no excuse for the actions you cite.
We should not blind ourselves to the negative human traits. It is just naivete and willful ignorance. We should shape our culture to ameliorate these "evil" behaviors. And, well, some people are just nuts.
There is no "sad" or "happy" statement on human evolution; it just is.
However, the choices we make going forward will have happy or sad consequences. We will know because we will be happy or sad.
"When a society's women would prefer to be old spinsters instead of listening to their biological impulses, you know something is wonky is going on...
yagij"
Other poeple's kids are the best form of birth control.
2 outcast young male lions join forces to kill the alpha male. They immediately kill all the cubs. The females then immediately go into heat. Time is short. Other mammals share food and nursing duties in a seemingly socialist way. Monkees sneak off and copulate out of view of the Alpha male. We have no hard-wired strategies. The urge to replicate your own DNA, your clan's, and your species' all compete with one another. But consciousness is king.
China will never see their profits realized in the form of principal repayments on all those bonds. That's what happens when you poison your customers, their children, and their pets with lead and melamine; they tend to walk out on the bill.
soxx | 12.22.08 - 9:27 pm | #
Really? What do you think the de-facto nationalization of FNM/FRE was all about? And the Treasurie's plan to buy up 600B in MBS to increase mortgage "affordability"?
Notice how the Treasury purchase of MBS goes up as China's MBS holdings drop?
China gave the walking orders to Paulson months ago. And he's been doing exactly what they ordered in the guise of "saving" American housing.
The real 'gold & ammo' crowd are the priviledged elites who hide behind 'bailout' governments.
This does not surprise me. "Executives" are still getting bonuses and perks. These "executives" need to "WALKAWAY."
OK Guest,
Take the perspective of the hawk instead of the ant.
Nazi's and Japs aren't trying to kill us. Ruskie missles don't even work anymore. I see no bread lines and farmers are still tilling the land.
This is so different than the 30's. Just brace yourself for a currency depression. If you own 'stuff', you'll be OK.
bobn, don't know if the car companies are worthy of a bailout or not, but giving cash money to a bankrupt business, or a nearly bankrupt one, feels like a bailout. Not worth fighting over the label, though.
I wonder what we will have when this burst of pump priming is seen by the public as, at best, another ponzi scheme. What if we are left with on going unemployment,a slide in the standard of living, and a bankrupt currency? The political fall out could go either way. A right wing dictatorship or a thread bare socialist society. Not a pleasent future.
MrM writes:
\t Oh, wait...
MrM | 12.22.08 - 10:21 pm | #
---
One of the axioms of human history is exactly that: It works until it doesn't.
I'm an amateur Chinese/Japanese history buff, and I must admit that the Chinese have had thousands of years to figure out a way to keep their "stereotypical people" freedomless and yet happy or content. As you probably know from the news coming out of China, they still haven't figured out how to make it work with Mother Nature's natural programming. In all honesty, I think it is what made our species the Top Dawg of the planet: It isn't ever good enough for us collectively. It is one of the reasons that I don't foreseen a permenant future that is "1984". Eventually--just like this blog--a group of people will see the Wizard of Oz for what he is, and it is there that everything starts to crumble.
And as soon as one group rests on its laurels, another group is ready to pounce on it. We are some kind of odd combination of Mormon Locusts, Canines, and Chimps. God was a Blessing Creator indeed!
Yogi, Your earlier comments touched on the "moral hazard" issue of those involved in this whole meltdown.
I've a few friends in the RE business on different levels:
1. Sr VP at CWC; intelligent, college drop out that was just greedy, in it for the easy money. He's retired at 49 and has a great financial legacy for his kids and new wife. Saw nothing wrong with making money, if he didn't do the job, somebody else would have. Morals have no place in his world.
2. RE appraiser; he was just a part of the machine, if there was a buyer and seller agreeing on a deal, who was he to stop it. Lots of pressure to do illegal things from the people that send you 99% of your regular business. Still barely working, hunkered down in a rental house.
3. Loan officer; in it only for the money. Met a lot of his clients at bars, talked them into refi, buy deals. He's moved on. Probably looking for the next big thing.
I agree with your sentiment, people want to look out for themselves, families, friends. Seldom do they want to think about the big picture, what is going on with society, or even their lives in the next year, that is someone else's job.
CR, in the upcoming Comment Reformation, could you consider adding open threads? I was going to make a comment or two about your post, but after 232 OT comments, I don't see the point.
You're a gem Comrade Kristina. I really hope you pull off the refinancing.
G'night y'all.
Wow, what perfect scenery and props for the bloated, gloating corpora that befittingly represents our corporate-government mafia! Truly the best democracy that money can buy.
Red Pill,
And one of the greatest negative side affects of 'monothestic religion' as read in the Old Testament for example is that one tribe or 'race' or 'faith' is superior to another. The Old Testament has passages that elevate one people over another. So predatory behavior can be justified by faith in 'scared texts'. it is sad.
Or sacred texts to be scared of.
How does a loan that gets the car companies thru the 1st quarter count as a bailout?
bobn | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 11:11 pm | #
It wouldn't. But it's not a loan if it doesn't have to be repayed. And since the terms do not have the force of law, it won't be. Therefore, it isn't a loan.
Troy writes:
Here ya go!
Troy | 12.22.08 - 10:54 pm | #
---
Need more cow (pig?) bell!
the guest,
I agree.
Hanging by a Thread is on topic.
guest:
the old testament didn't say one race/faith is superior to another and it didn't elevate one people over another. the old testament saddled the jewish people with a responsibility, not a superiority. big difference.
That's a misreading, guest, which I'll get to.
Those Hollywood slasher movies should serve to satisfy our animal fantasies, which we can't totally suppress.
Don't worry all the blogs are going through 'Comment Reformation'. It's called selective censorship or gatekeeping or keeping certain inquiries always 'off-topic' or taboo.
Another Hannity quoting idiot. How does a loan that gets the car companies thru the 1st quarter count as a bailout? How come a loan to companies that may account for as many 3 million real jobs for real people is a bad bailout, but a gift of 50TIMES AS MUCH to the banksters that caused all this is OK?
bobn | Homepage | 12.22.08 - 11:11 pm | #
Yeah, I agree - Hannity is an idiot. OH, wait! That was directed at me. Chill out, man.
I don't really agree with any of the bail-outs because I don't think they'll work. But, agree with them or not, they are protectionist moves. Through the bail-out, you prop up your native industry. That is protectionism.
The so-called loan either a.) delays inevitable liquidation of the failed US auto makers or b.) punts the political hot potato to Obama to deal with. Either way, we'll be subsidizing the UAW for a long time to come.
Please go collect your toll elsewhere. Try to read the posts you flame before erupting next time.
Craig,
So it's a matter of 'responsibility'.
If you are 'responsible' for someone, are you the parent?
Sacred texts to be scared of?
The whole world of theology is a battle of Totems against Taboos. Taboos keep the King just and a river to his people.
Eat a cow, warship a cow, revile pork and eschew poligamy. Who the hell cares. Semetic peoples who share a common history but are divided between Catholics and Protestants. Jews and Moslems. Samo samo.
But Islam has bloody borders.
I disagree. ....auto union bailouts were the first shots.
RockyR | 12.22.08 - 9:16 pm |
Another Hannity quoting idiot. How does a loan that gets the car companies thru the 1st quarter count as a bailout? How come a loan to companies that may account for as many 3 million real jobs for real people is a bad bailout, but a gift of 50TIMES AS MUCH to the banksters that caused all this is OK?
bobn
Rocky beat me to it. My post that he responded to was about protectionism being displayed by China and he countered thay the Big 3 was prior and also protectionist. He was right. Look in the mirror bobn and say three times "I am an idiot for calling someone else who is obviously more intelligent than me an idiot"
TPTB have no idea how disgusted, furious, and perhaps, vindictive this whole situation makes the honest, hard working, rule-following people in our republic. i pay my fair share of taxes, i donate to charity, i study the issues and vote, i take very seriously the responsibility of citizenship. when i see such a high level of malfeasance, ignorance, abuse of power, and contempt of the public from our govt and its employees, it makes me want to see those MF'ers pay by serving prison time. have they no decency left?
Uffish Thought: Thanks for putting flesh and blood on the stereotypes we've been bantering about.
I think selfishness is omnipresent, and to be expected. It is from the very top of the food chain that we have a right to get a more farsighted and selfless view. That doesn't mean the top people must wear hairshirts. One the contrary, they must be allowed to be very prosperous and respected, as long as they remain farsighted and work diligently for the greater good.
I feel that I am chasing my tail... To get good decisions, we need good people as leaders. But we can only get good leaders if we choose them over the alternatives. It's back to us. Sigh... Time to say goodnight.
Ross,
I thought Arab terrorists were trying to kill us. We have been told and told and told we aren't safe in the Homeland.
Hey a currency depression will suck. Gotta keep buying perishables and energy. Will seashells and Kohl's clothing work?
Uffish, I don't doubt that all 3 have many redeeming charitable features. And they relied on time honored national myths created by authentic altruistic heros to justify their choices. When you're hungry, that's all consuming, and then you can never have too much cushion. I'm not saying the exec's who got the bonuses shouldn't be held accountable. There is value also in outright competition. Reforms can easily overshoot.
o, i meant the jews were saddled with a tremendous responsibility to their god. many rules, customs, rituals, etc, etc. when you look at Judaism closely, you realize the situation of being God's chosen people doesn't mean they are special, but means they are obligated with some very strict rules, customs, etc. that carry serious repercussions.
GENEVA, Dec. 22 (Xinhua) -- China on Monday asked the World Trade Organization (WTO)...
Which genius thought it would be a good idea to let a billion-person country into the WTO without mandating a convertible currency?
Craig,
Was the 'abuse of power' planned, allowed, or just a series of unintended mistakes? Assumptions or opinion here will determine how angry to get. Evidence is sketchy for now but coming.
Which genius thought it would be a good idea to let a billion-person country into the WTO without mandating a convertible currency?
Cynical Dude | 12.22.08 - 11:38 pm | #
The same ones running the corporations that sold globalization as a salve for all of US problems?
If you want good government, you have to pay.
I still maintain that $3 mil per congressman per year would go a long way to restoring integrity. Hell, even CR would be tempted to run for office.
Take away the temptation to sell out and we might get semi honest folks. Better than we have now!
Again I say that politicians are bribed expo facto. How did Bill and Hilly's net worth go from $3 mil to $60+ mil in eight short years.
abuse of power is mixed, some is malfeasance, some is unintended consequences. i'd venture to say (total SWAG) the mix is 70/30 in favor of malfeasance. that is what is so frustrating.
TPTB have no idea how disgusted, furious, and perhaps, vindictive this whole situation makes the honest, hard working, rule-following people in our republic.
craig | 12.22.08 - 11:32 pm | #
The Powers That Be have no idea of the concept of social capital. If the burn through it, which they are, we will become just another Third World nation. In the Phillipines or Mexico, the rich have to high bodyguards to prevent their children from being kidnapped. In the US with our middleclass values, kidnapping is not a routine worry for most prosperous families, but this could change.
Yes and Christian rules carry serious 'consequences' for misbehavior as do most religions.
But dangerous deceptions leading to many deaths is still a problem in humanity and religious principles have failed to stop the insanity. If the insanity is organized, we are really screwed.
"How did Bill and Hilly's net worth go from $3 mil to $60+ mil in eight short years.
Ross"
Cattle futures?
ross,
if you offer more money, then the incentive to cheat to win is even greater, isn't it? doesn't that attract more dishonest actors?
Elvis, you rogue. You too have a long memory.
guest,
i really do see where you are coming from. i think about it often and realize it is a paradox of religion. however, I tend to focus on the balance of outcomes. religion causes humans to act good and bad, and IMHO it has caused far more good than bad in the course of human events.
if you offer more money, then the incentive to cheat to win is even greater, isn't it? doesn't that attract more dishonest actors?
craig | 12.22.08 - 11:45 pm | #
I believe that Singapore's government made a conscious decision to pay government employee generously in order to keep the graft to a minimum. They also punish graft vigorously.
"You too have a long memory.
Ross"
One of many long things I have.
Cattle futures?
Elvis | 12.22.08 - 11:44 pm | #
No, speeches and honoraria for past services rendered.
@ Craig,
I know a whole lot of VERY bright folks, some on this blog that if pressed could not live on a congress critter's salary. Sure, demigods abound but today, one must have independent wealth or pruient money motives to run for high office. To my mind, both are suspect.
To my mind, governing should not be entrusted to the wealthy and wantabe wealthy that sell out for future benies.