Hi all. I hope I'm not missing too much, but I'm having a great time! I went on a long ranger guided tour of Carlsbad Caverns, and I hiked Canyon de Chelly today. The weather is great - although it was cold this morning - single digits!
It is starting to become obvious to the rest of the world that the reserve status of the dollar is toast.
We are so dead in terms of trade shortly. Even our friendly Chinese pawn shop may cut us off!!!
Well, so long and thanks for all the fish!!! Now that we are essentially printing our way out of deflation, I guess that soon enough real estate prices will stabilize. Too bad it means that fixed incomes are going to be trashed, again. Ready for the bond vigilantes and certificates of confiscation.
Jas, you might want to rethink your long term investment in treasuries...
Remember how we were all so worked up about the TARP when it was first proposed, thinking about all the different ways in which it would be abused? We were such optimists then.
I sense lots of trouble down the road from this reckless throwing of money at problems. I know that some economists, like Krugman, say it is needed, but I don't think he is God and may well be very wrong. Mindless panic is hardly a good way to approach a terrible problem. Panic seems to be the order of the day.
Would it have been so terrible to try trickle-up for a change? Govt. gives us credits to pay off debt. We pay GMAC our debt. They stay solvent. No one panics.
I have a sense that Kuwait's ditching the Dow Chemical deal has something to do with the decline of our reputation economically. You don't suppose our rep is slipping, do you?
I sense lots of trouble down the road from this reckless throwing of money at problems. I know that some economists, like Krugman, say it is needed, but I don't think he is God and may well be very wrong.
It is just philosophy. You can't have a scientific opinion about an isolated event.
They do. I'm quite confident that the folks at the big Asian CBs are every bit as disturbed and alarmed as the average poster here. They just don't want the whole closet full of other shoes to drop at the same time.
"As you can see, the money from my right hand goes into my left hand. My left hand then takes options against the right hand and the cash is rebalanced. The cash left in the right hand is then given to the left hand, and then another distributed redistribution upon which everyone is made whole and fully operational."
May We No Longer Be Silent May We No Longer Be Silent
Bishop Chanes courage was to no avail. As Justin Raimondo reported (Antiwar.com, 27 December), when Americas new leader of change was informed of Israels massive air attack on the Gaza Ghetto, an area of 139 square miles where Israel confines 1.4 million Arabs and tightly controls the inflow of all resources--food, medicine, water, energy--Americas president-elect Obama had no comment.
According to the Jerusalem Post (26 December), at 11:30 a.m., more than 50 fighter jets and attack helicopters swept into Gazan airspace and dropped more than 100 bombs on 50 targets. . . . Thirty minutes later, a second wave of 60 jets and helicopters struck at 60 targets . . . More than 170 targets were hit by IAF aircraft throughout the day. At least 230 Gazans were killed and over 780 were wounded . . .
As I write, news reports are that Israel is sending tanks and infantry reinforcements in preparation for a ground invasion of Gaza.
Israels excuse for its violence is that from time to time the Palestinian resistance organization, Hamas, fires off rockets into Israel to protest the ghetto life that Israel imposes on Gazans. The rockets are ineffectual for the most part and seldom claim Israeli casualties. However, the real purpose for the Israeli attack is to destroy Hamas.
going through some papers today, i found a $50 EE bond from 1980. i wonder if it will make it to final maturity. maybe i should just mail it straight to cerberus.
The Crash: What Went Wrong?
How did the most dynamic and sophisticated financial markets in the world come to the brink of collapse? The Washington Post examines how Wall Street innovation outpaced Washington regulation.
However, the real purpose for the Israeli attack is to destroy Hamas.
Actually I think Israel would like to destroy and kill all Palestinians, but don't quite have the guts to do so. It would seem too much like the famous Nazi Holocaust.
Damn it. I'm reading through three long assed threads and we still haven't solved the Israeli/Palestine problem,...how many more threads will it take? Has Comrade Kristina got her fill yet?
The US Treasury has money pouring in from foreign CBs on which it pays interest. It hopes these "investors" won't ask for their capital back on any significant scale. If they were to do so, what would it do? Isn't that pretty much like the problem that Madoff faced? (Of course he couldn't print the dollars to pay them off).
What do you think would happen if Mexican drug lords were firing rockets into San Diego daily?
I don't get the connection. Did the US corral the drug lords into a ghetto like corner of Mexico? Did the US recently steal their territory with settlements? (I know the US did this over a century ago, but not very recently). How are Palestinians like drug lords? Are they selling drugs and corrupting Israeli youth?
A lot of 130% LTV's on 60K cars that are worth 25K or less....
Ultimately, I think it is all about moving the inventory off the dealer's car lots... whatever it takes. Look for some killer deals in the near future. Same thing regards to housing inventory with tax credits, subsidized low interest rates, etc. etc.
Do deficits really matter? I contend that they do not. Its all about human motivation. If you can get people to be productive members of society by deficit spending, then I am all for it.
We are working our way towards one global currency. It will happen and the USA will not turn into zimbabwe because we are much better than "those people"
Spend spend spend away, especially if it benefits private military contractors who happen to donate large sums of money to whichever party controls the government.
I don't get the connection. Did the US corral the drug lords into a ghetto like corner of Mexico? Did the US recently steal their territory with settlements? (I know the US did this over a century ago, but not very recently). How are Palestinians like drug lords? Are they selling drugs and corrupting Israeli youth? Hal | 12.29.08 - 10:58 pm | #
YES! And the MSM isn't telling you the whole tragic story. Look on the Internet, Google Mexican drug lord missle launchers!
What do you think would happen if Mexican drug lords were firing rockets into San Diego daily?
sm_landlord
Linking drug lords in Mexico to rockets shows the lack of education you have in this matter, so what it seems you are getting at, is a question of how San Diego would go about rounding up Mexicans in Tijuana and placing them into a concentration camp and then shutting off their water and food supplies and then subjecting them to non-human conditions. It is just possible that these Mexicans just might be upset enough that they would engage The Free People of San Diego and attempt to communicate, versus die like dogs
Yep. I'm looking to upgrade my 93 Surburban wiht a real pretty new one. I actually have need of a 4wd. Pavement ends before I get home and right now there is about a foot of snow on the ground.
I have a sense that Kuwait's ditching the Dow Chemical deal has something to do with the decline of our reputation economically. You don't suppose our rep is slipping, do you? Hal | 12.29.08 - 10:37 pm | #
OT: I know this pales in comparison to enlightened anonymous public debate on war in the middle east, but does anyone have any thoughts on this deal falling through and the overall health of DC?
is a question of how San Diego would go about rounding up Mexicans in Tijuana and placing them into a concentration camp and then shutting off their water and food supplies and then subjecting them to non-human conditions. Anonymous | 12.29.08 - 11:03 pm | #
We call it the INS and really they're mostly Central Americans living in squalor in the Tijuana River valley, we leave it to the corrupt TJ officials to do the dirty work.
Yep. I'm looking to upgrade my 93 Surburban wiht a real pretty new one. I actually have need of a 4wd. Pavement ends before I get home and right now there is about a foot of snow on the ground.
There are a lot of folks out there who don't have much alternative than a large truck and if the price is low enough they can move that inventory. I would consider a new Silverado 4x4, ... if the price is low enough.
OT: I know this pales in comparison to enlightened anonymous public debate on war in the middle east, but does anyone have any thoughts on this deal falling through and the overall health of DC?
RockyR
I have a sense that Kuwait's ditching the Dow Chemical deal has something to do with the decline of our reputation economically. You don't suppose our rep is slipping, do you?
Hal
Ain't got nothing to do with some goddamn rep, if momey can be made
"Linking drug lords in Mexico to rockets shows the lack of education you have in this matter, so what it seems you are getting at, is a question of how San Diego would go about rounding up Mexicans in Tijuana and placing them into a concentration camp and then shutting off their water and food supplies and then subjecting them to non-human conditions."
Blah. Northern Mexico would be a series of smoking craters in less than a week. You wouldn't find body parts, because they would all be incinerated. There is no way that the U.S. would put up with that sort of crap.
The lack of education must refer to the double standard that is applied to terrorists in the middle east. Anywhere else in the world, they would have trouble finding DNA traces of the troublemakers. The so-called "Palistinians" are lucky they are not trying this sort of operation in Africa. They would not do as well there.
Enough already about goddamn Israel and Palestine, I'm 50 yrs old and for my whole life this episode has been on one 50 yr loop. Fuck 'em both. Let the Israelis kill all the Palestinians and let the Palestinians kill all the Israelis. Poof! Problem solved
What do you think would happen if Mexican drug lords were firing rockets into San Diego daily?
Just a rhetorical question.
sm_landlord | Homepage | 12.29.08 - 10:53 pm | #
More like fireing them 100 miles to the east of SD, but not an anallogous situation since the US has not turned TJ into a concentration camp. Actually I think the solution is for Egypt to open its border with Gaza and basically have it defacto become part of egypt, perhaps with some sort of fig leaf independence.
"Actually I think the solution is for Egypt to open its border with Gaza and basically have it defacto become part of egypt, perhaps with some sort of fig leaf independence."
--Dirk
Priceless that US is calling for ceasefires in Israel-Palestine and India-Pakistan.
How would we react if some countries called for us to ceasefire in the Iraq and Afghanistan campaigns?
If these countries/leaders want to fight each other, than let them fight. The Palestines aren't the only peoples who have been displaced in the history of mankind, nor were the Israelites.
I think everyone's stance on this issue is way colored by which doctrine they share with the people displaced or doing the displacement.
As far as America we are completely schizo. Israel can do what it wants, but when Serbia tries to do the same thing against their "uprising" we bomb the Serbs. Not sure we did too much to help those ethnic groups being pushed out by Russia (Chechnya, the stans?) .
Maybe its just because I talk to Serbian folk and some Muslim folk and attend an evangelical church. To the victors go the borders. I know the "international community" would damn near frown on this sentiment but it seems to be how the world works... if you win the war you get the land. The people will probably be a problem.
I think us North American's can't really fathom the root of some of these conflicts. It's simpletonish to say something like "those backwards folks are racist"... but I believe there could be some truth to that.
When and if the U.S. living conditions become like Gaza, then there will be more empathy from our own lived experience. The pyramid scheme has ended so anything is possible on the way down.
CR: I was a guide at the Caverns in 1968. I met my first husband there. We explored New Cave before it was developed. I can't imagine what it is like now, since it was quite an adventure for me then. Hopefully it was an adventure for you as well. We need those adventures.
NorkaWest writes:
"I took the liberty of posting your question about finding a home for World War I stuff on another blog."
Extremely kind of you, and your enthusiastic support has galvanized our efforts to find a proper home for these few reamining threads of an epic story. Not was of German descent, spoke fluent German, and yet left his remote farm to spend his youth fighting in a bitter struggle with an enemy who spoke his native langauge and shared his culture. The picture postcards from the trenches are riveting. Can't imagine what the experience must have been like. Bends your preconceptions, no?
Would it have been so terrible to try trickle-up for a change? Govt. gives us credits to pay off debt. We pay GMAC our debt. They stay solvent. No one panics.
Am I missing a down side? Outsider | 12.29.08 - 10:36 pm | #
But how would that have helped Pimco & Goldman Sacks?
The hate has to stop and war breeds hate. Who is breeding war? The war mongers and war profiteers must be stopped. Who are the war mongers, rabble rousers, and war profiteers? We are being prepared for WWIII and we aren't debating why? We aren't debating who?
WWII was escalated from Depression and from the results and war reparations from WWI. Who funds world wars?
Time to look at the links between global depressions and world war. Time to look at how global depressions are caused.
OT: Let me think Ken again for CR Companion. It wasn't until today that I added my own mix to the [Edit Banned Phrases], but I definitely going to do my part to self-moderate these threads now that age-old debates are popping up here.
Drew,
What are you talking about? You are blog policing. I'm saying religion is a cover sometimes for criminals. And I mean every religion. radicals hide behind religious principles and generate war and violence. That is the underlying problem plus ethnic genocide in the name of religious wars.
Why would these comments have you kick me off this blog? Heck, this isn't even an open thread either but I jumped in on some OT comments underway. Let's talk issues brought up instead of playing comment cop...
Bends your preconceptions, no? Comrade V | 12.29.08 - 11:27 pm | #
Yes, WWI was an excuse for European civilization to commit suicide. They didn't quite suceed; but wasn't for lack of effort.
Prior to WWI, much of the Midwest was bilingual (English and German) with German newspapers, theaters, and schools. After the war, it was all gone. Amazing what can happen to a country in 4 years?
"The hate has to stop and war breeds hate. Who is breeding war? The war mongers and war profiteers must be stopped."
--the guest
War goes on all the time. It all comes down to how much attention we pay to it.
Have you looked at the news coming out of Africa recently? Constant, ongoing war. Millions dying. That is not about first world nations and mega-corps, it is tribal warfare, the oldest kind there is.
You underestimate the power of affinity scams. Seriously. Everyone who has serious money is not necessarily smart. A common misconception.
sm_landlord | Homepage | 12.29.08 - 11:31 pm | #
Sure, but so many of these people went through middlemen in order to invest with him. I worked on the retail side of things while in grad school, and for the clients that we were placing with external money managers and hedge funds.... I would have been absolutely terrified of putting all (or the majority) of someone's wealth in one place.
I guess it does not surprise me that there are wealthy people out there who are more than happy just to let someone else do something with their money so they do not have to think about it. But it does surprise me that so many FAs with heaps of assets under management could be so stupid.
Drew,
Baloney. You just can't handle the questions. But we have to ask questions on the eve of more war. Don't ya think that's reasonable?
Talking about nazis or fascism may be relevant to economies turning to authoritarnism in deflationary times. Don't ya think? If history has any lessons at all.
in any other case, i'd say yes, but I think the potential partisans in that one are a bit too frightened to engage in serious saber-rattling.
same goes with the mysterious urge to not sell treasuries despite miniscule rates. how many jobs does china need to create every year to keep the rural folk rushing into coastal cities fed? at this point, i'm sure they're more interested in not losing them. this chills the PRC PTB.
sm_landlord,
Yes. point taken...war is ubiquitous...but the nations with the nukes are of concern for everyone in the global 'community' I think...Yes...we are told to be petrified of Iran getting nukes but Pakistan, India, etc. have nukes...
I don't think GMAC cleared the final hurdle to become a bank holding company, and that is why the Treasury threw money at GMAC tonight.
This is from Saturday:
GRAND BLANC, Mich. (AP) -- Even after a crucial deadline came and went, the financing arm of General Motors Corp. remained silent Saturday on whether it cleared a final hurdle to become a bank holding company and gain access to billions in federal bailout money.
Bond Girl writes:
"I guess it does not surprise me that there are wealthy people out there who are more than happy just to let someone else do something with their money so they do not have to think about it. But it does surprise me that so many FAs with heaps of assets under management could be so stupid."
Infatuated with their own self importance by "who they know". SM_Landlord is on point.
Kerkorian owned 107.1 million Ford shares, or 4.9% of the company, in late October, when Tracinda reported in a regulatory filing that it had unloaded 7.3 million shares and planned to sell the rest of its holdings by the end of the year.
Because it owned less than 5% of the company -- the regulatory threshold for reporting changes in stock ownership -- Tracinda was not required to file information with the Securities and Exchange Commission regarding the more recent sales, such as when the shares were sold or at what price.
But Kerkorian, who began buying Ford shares in April and spent about $1 billion acquiring a 6.5% stake in the automaker, clearly took a bath on the investment.
Came late to the party tonight but but sometimes war is good, there are good and bad Jews, Arabs and Christians. Western money thought to a degree socializes differences in cultures and GMAC paper used to be almost as good as T-Paper. Ok, I need to define T-Paper.
So what makes people here think that gold will retain value? In my opinion, the value in otherwise worthless metals, notes, or coins is just a promise waiting to be broken.
"But it does surprise me that so many FAs with heaps of assets under management could be so stupid."
--Bond Girl
Really? By FAs do you mean what exactly?
The business is done by affinity: golf clubs, country clubs, word of mouth. You have no idea how stupid most rich people are. The smart ones have family offices with smart people running them. The rest are suitable victims for whatever fraud comes along. Your typical rich person has no idea where their money really came from, or what to do with it. Think star athletes, star actors, star producers, star models, etc. Serious money mostly comes to people by accident, through luck. Only a few are up to dealing with the results.
When you live in a lottery society, it should not be surprising that many people with money have no idea how to handle it.
More like fireing them 100 miles to the east of SD, but not an anallogous situation since the US has not turned TJ into a concentration camp. Actually I think the solution is for Egypt to open its border with Gaza and basically have it defacto become part of egypt, perhaps with some sort of fig leaf independence. Dirk | Homepage | 12.29.08 - 11:16 pm | #
Israelis would say "From Dirk's lips (or finger tips since it's a keyboard) to God's ears (or eyes if he's reading it on the internet - btw what kinda bandwidth he must have)... point is the Israelis would be happier than hell if the Egyptians on one side and Jordanians on the other TOOK OWNERSHIP of what was once their turf.
Why doesn't it happen - THEY DON'T WANT THE DAMNED PALESTINIAN PROBLEM EITHER!!!
Dec. 30 (Bloomberg) -- Japans economy will probably shrink at an annual 12.1 percent pace this quarter, the sharpest drop since 1974, as exports collapse, Barclays Capital said.
Gross domestic product in the three months ending tomorrow will fall at almost three times the 4.1 percent rate previously predicted, said Kyohei Morita, chief Japan economist at Barclays in Tokyo, after reports last week showed industrial production and exports posted the biggest declines on record in November.
Given the speed and the length of the contraction, this recession could be the most severe in the postwar era, Morita said. We expect negative growth will continue for a fifth straight quarter to the April-June period of 2009.
Drew,
My point is there are tensions even between Americans and instead of United We Stand, it'll be more a case of Divided We Fall.
I'm not some radical moralist but I think the rule of law and the culture here in the USA is going down the drain and I used to think criticisms about the decline of morality was bogus clap trap.
Actually, I am only half Scottish. (Or a little less; there is some Irish mixed in there, too.) My other half is Italian...
Besides, I was making a joke -- and a mockery of tonight's comments.
Madoff was trusted. He was successful partially because it was hard to put money with him; he actually turned people away. So when someone got the "honor" of investing with him, the tendency was to put in as much as he would allow.
A truly remarkable scam. Also a unique one, I suspect. Not that most people will believe it.
I think us North American's can't really fathom the root of some of these conflicts. It's simpletonish to say something like "those backwards folks are racist"... but I believe there could be some truth to that. YLSP | 12.29.08 - 11:21 pm | #
I know some folks who 'get it' - but they a Lakota & Mdewaketon 'Sioux'.
Wow... I'm new here, but this place appears to coming completely unhinged. The information posted on the blog is great, but these recent comments - geez!
Now, an interesting fork on this thought. Following the logic one would have to say, "If you are going to fight a war make damn sure you win."
I think its pretty clear that America would have an advantage in any type of military battle that will be a hinge to history. But I'm not sure about the economic warfare that will follow. It seems like as far as the economic war goes, everyone knows where we are and what our battle plan is (thanks Bernanke). Hence, we are at a severe disadvantage. Furthermore, you can bet your bottom amero that those fighting us in a current/ongoing economic war will make damn sure they don't lose.
I don't think GMAC cleared the final hurdle to become a bank holding company, and that is why the Treasury threw money at GMAC tonight. WT | 12.29.08 - 11:48 pm | #
RR, I think everyone here is going postal from the Chinese water torture - watching our country's future being handed out as chips to allow the crooks at the table a few more losing hands.
I think its pretty clear that America would have an advantage in any type of military battle that will be a hinge to history. But I'm not sure about the economic warfare that will follow. It seems like as far as the economic war goes, everyone knows where we are and what our battle plan is (thanks Bernanke). Hence, we are at a severe disadvantage. Furthermore, you can bet your bottom amero that those fighting us in a current/ongoing economic war will make damn sure they don't lose. YLSP | 12.30.08 - 12:04 am | #
Agreed - we've got some pretty dumb economic 'generals'... and I don't care if you at it from a lib or con perspective... dumb is dumb.
I thought I settled this Israeli/Palestinian debate yesterday. Does anyone remember the Russia/Georgia conflict in August? Why must all conflicts be discyssed? Why is there so much conflict discussion on this blog's comment site?
RockyR,
There's a line in the sand here in America(media, blogs, whatever) you can't cross when you are trying to figure stuff out.
My suspicions are aroused when namecalling and verbal aggression takes the place of honest discussion. I've seen it many times on blogs when you get into a taboo area or maybe a 'sacred lie' area. I mean I don't wanna just assume that every off-topic or controversial remark is bogus. Many are bogus. IMO. But IMO many are not.
But there are whole topics that are 'off limits' and there's a form of censorship or content editing going on and the rabid reactions to some comments are mystifying and make you wonder what's up with the over-reaction. You know with so-called 'free speech' parameters and all that we are presumably practicing.
Persecuted,
So many war comments because so many wars loom dangerously...even so-called civil war here in the USA is being speculated by some analysts for what reason I don't really know. Wishful thinking maybe?
Like I said, no surprise that investors bought into his BS. Surprised that professionals working in a highly regulatory environment would risk their own hides on him. But I suppose regulations only work on people who want to be good.
Racism is a beggars stew, fit only for the unwashed tramps. Most arguements are about cultures and class that do not understand each other. It is for the most part not about skin colour.
Part of my heritage is Algonquian and Blackfoot. After 2 or 3 generations, foreigners are completely assimilated unless they ghettoize themselves.
The lesson is, assimilate or die. Fireant colonies do not tolerate carpenter ants. Carpenter ants become food.
But how would that have helped Pimco & Goldman Sacks?
dryfly | 12.29.08 - 11:33 pm | #
the part that bothers me most is that issues of insider malfeasance / crony capitalism will be spun into a matter of generational and class conflict, to deflect public outrage away from the real criminal element that needs to be purged.
"from the real criminal element that needs to be purged"
couldn't disagree more. insider corruption will always be with us, much like poverty. the AARP, however, is a true force of destruction and should be thought of as such.
i wonder what percentage of CR comment threads contain a Frank Herbert reference, or a godwin, or both. im guessing its pretty high. unhappyCakeEater | 12.30.08 - 12:12 am | #
Throw in a reference to squirrel recipes and it's close to a 100%.
A truly remarkable scam. Also a unique one, I suspect. Not that most people will believe it. Nemo | Homepage | 12.29.08 - 11:58 pm | # Watch "The Sting" with Paul Newman and Robert Redford. All scams are basically the same, with a few little wrinkles to keep them interesting. <i>Madoff was trusted. He was successful partially because it was hard to put money with him; he actually turned people away. </i> You mean it's as if he were saying," This investment is really more of a Shelbyville idea." The only thing that's unique is the amount of money.
Ross,
America is very open to inter-racial mixing for the most part IMO by now but what are the nations that still discourage inter-racial mixing? These nations may be more intolerant than the USA possibly.
re: AARP - the first real battle in the war on fiscal reality wasn't fired by general Hank and Helicopter Ben - it happened five years ago or so with the passage of the donut bill, shoved through at 6 AM by tom delay and friends. the potential entitlements in that one should lead to an ultimate liability of tens of trillions of dollars. who was the muscle behind that one? more than a few TARPs hidden there.
but I definitely going to do my part to self-moderate these threads now that age-old debates are popping up here. yagij | 12.29.08 - 11:37 pm | # Brilliant - I hadn't thought of seeding it with 'hitler' and 'nazi'. Perhaps we could break godwin's law?
almost all of them, on a cultural level. this is the only real saving grace of the USA at this point, we are significantly less bigoted than just about every other nation on the planet on a personal level, especially if you ignore the creationist fly-over states and the CSA.
I worked with an Armenian woman back in 2005 who was going to put her money into Hovananian stock. Told her to be careful buying homebuilders, looks like she bought at the top.
Just curious, but maybe the watchers of bubble-vision can help me out. All the news channel keep showing the same Madoff perp-walk where the guy is smiling and being hounded by a score of reporters. However, there is a cute asian woman wearing red gloves (mittens?) trying to fend them all off and shove them away from Madoff. Is she one of his lawyers? PR consultant? Paramour? Inquiring minds want to know!
couldn't disagree more. insider corruption will always be with us, much like poverty. the AARP, however, is a true force of destruction and should be thought of as such.
bgates | 12.30.08 - 12:19 am | #
bgates, I never claimed it could be purged, only that misdirection continually succeeds in moving the crosshairs of public outrage, and that it seems to be generational/class warfare this time as opposed to a "common enemy", a new lump of economic pseudoscience, or a host of other propaganda techniques. I don't know much about the AARP so I will take your comment at face value and (temporarily) assume you do, and am hoping you will elaborate.
the problem with the Zinn take on class and history is that it is wrong. there really was a solid conservative pro-business electorate behind Taft 100 years ago, and Nixon's silent majority was very real.
also real is the destruction the boomers, as a generation, have committed. the AARP, of course, rose to power on the backs of an older generation of them, but they make an extremely powerful combo, much like when Hitler discovered the worldview of Wagner.
Motherf#cking Cerberus will make a fortune off this Anonymous | 12.29.08 - 10:29 pm | #
A lot of people and co.s who should be in the poorhouse will make money off of this. My only hope is that GM goes BK and gets liquadated for cents on the $ and screws them all.
"But it does surprise me that so many FAs with heaps of assets under management could be so stupid.
Bond Girl"
may be "people" were getting "rewarded" by Madoff for channelling money towards him...
what else is new?
If you want others to invest your money for you, you first need a private investigator you can trust.
also real is the destruction the boomers, as a generation, have committed.
bgates | 12.30.08 - 12:36 am | #
I can't disagree, though as a very late Gen-X / early "Millenial" I have little claim to objectivity here. it's remarkable to me that a generation which matured and was strongly shaped under psychedelic influence seems bound and determined to amass enough wealth to effectively live in their own private universe, with little to no concern for anyone outside the the DNA of their own family tree. apology for the severely off-topic nature of this digression.
Peak-to-Trough Decline in Industrial Production in Various Countries (Annual Data) Country Decline Unites States 46.8 % Great Britain 16.2 % Germany 41.8 % France 31.3 % Canada 42.4 % Czechoslovakia 40.4 % Italy 33.0 % Belgium 30.6 % Netherlands 37.4 % Sweden 10.3 % Denmark 16.5 % Poland 46.6 % Argentina 17.0 % Brazil 7.0 % Japan 8.5 %
sraelâs excuse for its violence is that from time to time the Palestinian resistance organization, Hamas, fires off rockets into Israel to protest the ghetto life that Israel imposes on Gazans. The rockets are ineffectual for the most part and seldom claim Israeli casualties. However, the real purpose for the Israeli attack is to destroy Hamas. Anonymous | 12.29.08 - 10:44 pm | #
And the down side of a Iranian funded terroist org bing destroyed, is?
Are Madoff's 'clients' who got ripped off going to get government reimbursement? A couple was just on bubblevision who lost a million and a half or so...
" apology for the severely off-topic nature of this digression."
au contraire. the boomer parallel universe is supremely on point as we chronicle the antics of hank and ben, in just about every way.
if you're looking for an example of an off-topic comment, my one above about pelicano is a good one.
and, to get really off-topic, good point about psychedelics. i honestly think we'd be better off as a society if the tens of millions hooked on anti-depressants sacked up, ate some shrooms and confronted their fears and desires for a few hours every few months. why people trust stuff from a lab as opposed to something which naturally forms on cow shit is beyond me. the denial about serotonin-reuptake-inhibitor addiction is outrageous, and a real social problem.
Re: ResistanceisFeudal (Boomers)
As much as I agree with the boomers, I think we will witness them reaping what they have sown in the upcoming years.
Who are the folks losing are their money and savings in stocks, housing, work, and everything else? They were the leaders in mal-investment, and unfortunately they will be out of work sooner than everyone else and have less time to "make up" those losses. The boomers are the ones getting destroyed.
Of course who knows what the nuclear winter from their destruction will mean to the rest of us.
I don't get the connection. Did the US corral the drug lords into a ghetto like corner of Mexico? Did the US recently steal their territory with settlements? (I know the US did this over a century ago, but not very recently). How are Palestinians like drug lords? Are they selling drugs and corrupting Israeli youth? Hal | 12.29.08 - 10:58 pm | #
Wow! I am no fan of U.S. sponsorship of Israel but that is all kinds of dumb. Recently? 6 day war was what 67? Mex/U.S. War? N.M., AZ, Cali, NV CO... Gaza, West Bank, Golan Heights combined are about the size of Orange County. Plus Israel siezed lands that their agressors attacted from. Hell they took the Suez! And gave it back!
I'm sure there are plenty of Palestinians innocent of being terroists but I find it hard to picture Israel as the villan here.
The most off topic, taboo, 'don't go there', censored, deleted, 'no-no', sacred line in the sand, so-called 'crazy ass' issue, starts with a 9 and ends with a 1. Just don't ever go there OT or not or you'll get your head bitten off and spit back at cha there open thread or not. I can name more sacred lines or private do not enter areas but that's the Big One. Carry on as if it's all OK.
Since the P/I debate isn't going to die I will ask: Politically, is it actually bad for the US if Iran has nuclear weapons?
My read is that a nuclear Iran is an effective check on the "free hand" the US currently provides to Israel. Could M.A.D. be a more stable regime for the Middle East? Would American interests not be better served by this balance of power?
the denial about serotonin-reuptake-inhibitor addiction is outrageous, and a real social problem.
bgates"
the comment cannot possibly be off-topic, considering that so many people take more than coffee in an attempt to "optimize their performance", ability to concentrate etc...
I guess the few of us who are "functionimg naturally" feel like they are like "Asterix le Gaulois" (French cartoon character): who fell in the magic potion when he was an infant and no longer needed its effects
Downside is depleted uranium shells kill women & children too. Isn't the GBU-39 from the US used on Gaza depleted uranium? the guest | 12.30.08 - 12:52 am | #
I doubt the effects of any depleted uranium used by Israel will be anywhere near the scope of the civialian casualties inficted by the U.S. on the population of Iraq.
I am not a fan of Israel generally but there are far worse regimes in the world for me to fret over before I would give a damn about what they do. They could kill all residents of the occoupied territories in gas chambers before it would come close to what is going on in Rwanda.
Sounds like the Ian Schrager approach. Open a bar (or now, more like a hotel) and turn most people away. Suddenly everyone has to get in. Ugh. Comrade Bear (tj & the bear) | 12.30.08 - 12:53 am | #
Who are the folks losing are their money and savings in stocks, housing, work, and everything else?
YLSP | 12.30.08 - 12:56 am |
ah, very true. and a lot of innocents among them suffer too, which is unfortunate. time is definitely against them, which in turn means many unwilling to lower their anticipated standard of living in retirement will have to indulge high-risk speculation in a probably futile attempt to regain it, which will only make things worse and even more unstable. if that also fails, taxes will become usurious... either way it is a crap sandwich for us.
My read is that a nuclear Iran is an effective check on the "free hand" the US currently provides to Israel. Could M.A.D. be a more stable regime for the Middle East? Would American interests not be better served by this balance of power? Alex DeLarge | 12.30.08 - 1:02 am | #
Fear of a nuclear Iran is not about Israel (except in the mind of Israelis) it's about Saudia Arabia & control of the oil in the lower gulf. It always was - Israel is a red herring. Even the war in Iraq was an effort to 'stabilize' SA after 911 - it failed by every measure.
Alex,
What you have to decide in issues of war and peace if there is, or if there has ever been, or if there ever could be...a false flag(FF) attack to confuse and initiate war.
If not...if a FF is impossible and has always been impossible and always will be...you know....impossible... the debate is simple John Wayne stuff...the obvious good guys in white vs. the obvious bad guys in black or villains who wanna nuke us cause they hate us. Simple black and white discussion if all known, suspected, and unknown variables such as FF are removed from the historical analysis.
I say false flags are impossible because if I'm a historian maybe I'd wanna just keep it(history) simple.
Madoff was trusted. He was successful partially because it was hard to put money with him; he actually turned people away. So when someone got the "honor" of investing with him, the tendency was to put in as much as he would allow. Nemo | Homepage | 12.29.08 - 11:58 pm | #
From the great movie, House of Games, by David Mamet: It's called a confidence game. Why? Because you give me your confidence? No. Because I give you mine.
I guess the few of us who are "functionimg naturally" feel like they are like "Asterix le Gaulois" (French cartoon character): who fell in the magic potion when he was an infant and no longer needed its effects
NC | 12.30.08 - 1:04 am | #
oh dear... I resemble that remark. though I do indulge in the occasional cup or two of gourmet coffee.
I'd have to agree as to the significance and prevalence of antidepressants, especially worrisome is the generation of children upon whom these potent psychoactives have been forced at critical stages of psychological development. I guess we get to "wait and see"
Class & generational conflict becomes diversion... the guest | 12.30.08 - 12:20 am | #
Hmm. Is it possible that some classes and generations have benifitted inordiantly in the boom times? And that other classes and generations will suffer more during a bust?
"especially worrisome is the generation of children upon whom these potent psychoactives have been forced"
yes, cripples for life. a weekend crack binge is infinitely less damaging than a multi-month SSRI prescription, especially for someone under 25 whose brain is still developing.
ah, very true. and a lot of innocents among them suffer too, which is unfortunate. time is definitely against them, which in turn means many unwilling to lower their anticipated standard of living in retirement will have to indulge high-risk speculation in a probably futile attempt to regain it, which will only make things worse and even more unstable. if that also fails, taxes will become usurious... either way it is a crap sandwich for us. ResistanceIsFeudal | 12.30.08 - 1:08 am | #
It's no crap sandwich for you - it's 'our' problem and 'we' will live w/ it. The thing people forget is savings really don't push forward - only a claim against future production pushes forward & that claim is only as good as the people who make the deal and do the work & consume the fruit of labor at that time. You can't inventory your consumption when you are young to have when you are old... the stuff is consumed in the same time bucket as it is made/grown. If you want stuff when you are old SOMEBODY at that time has to make/grow it then and willingly share it with you or you have to do it yourself.
The real crime is we've not provided adequate 'productive capacity' going forward to make everyone - young, old & in between - as comfortable as THRY ALL expect to be. Folks here think gold will save them - good luck with that if the world is short food & energy.
I've been hearing the 'boomer bitching' here and other forums for years - all I can say is it's no different than the ignorant spewing boomers did about the generation before them... the funny thing is my father a 'greatest generation' member said it was no different when he was young - shit never changes. You can read young and old practicing 'generational warfare' going back to Roman times. Meanwhile the rock keeps circling the sun.
I agree many boomers who thought they were in fat city at retirement are going to be fried - they should have known better, me and my friends sure did. We all knew we'd die with our boots on - there wasn't going to be enough 'capacity' to carry us - we would have to carry our selves even as we fall apart. Every generation has it's blessings and curses.
Funny thing is you should hear the younger folks under the Xers now - those are my kids & their generation. They hate the Xers as much as Xers hate us as much as we hated 'the over thirties'... shit never changes.
"all I can say is it's no different than the ignorant spewing boomers did about the generation before them."
except that in 1970, the us was the world's leading creditor nation, with a strong industrial presence, almost 4/5 equity in their homes, a healthy level of income equality (especially in terms of ceo/worker ratios), relatively affordable housing compared to incomes, etc.
i agree that intergenerational conflict is eternal, but let's not obfuscate about the fact that boomers have really, really fucked up as a generation.
Funny thing is you should hear the younger folks under the Xers now - those are my kids & their generation. They hate the Xers as much as Xers hate us as much as we hated 'the over thirties'... shit never changes. dryfly | 12.30.08 - 1:26 am | #
Yeah, but with boomers it has been 2 wolves and a 1 sheep voting on what is for dinner for a while....
except that in 1970, the us was the world's leading creditor nation, with a strong industrial presence, almost 4/5 equity in their homes, a healthy level of income equality (especially in terms of ceo/worker ratios), relatively affordable housing compared to incomes, etc.
i agree that intergenerational conflict is eternal, but let's not obfuscate about the fact that boomers have really, really fucked up as a generation.
Hmm. Is it possible that some classes and generations have benifitted inordiantly in the boom times? And that other classes and generations will suffer more during a bust?
Blackhalo | 12.30.08 - 1:20 am | #
an annoying feature of economic cycles - those with money when it is scarce can buy stuff low, and those with stuff can sell it for money when money is plentiful. and of course a policy like capital gains tax is severely regressive, since the bottom has so little invested that gains are minimal at best, while it results in huge windfalls for the top 0.5% which we hoi polloi with nonexistent or small portfolios outside 401k/403b/IRA barely notice.
so there is a definite one-sided class bias if money supply can be controlled, or tax policies can be altered. at least as far as I can see, and I'm not an expert and barely a student of economics proper. generationally, I think we are primarily victims of the times and the currency regime we have to live under during various phases of life. and if we understand this stuff, we can rest assured that experts in the behavioral sciences do as well, and to a much higher degree of specificity. you can make a pretty convincing conspiratorial argument by putting those pieces together.
My grandparents on both sides (my wife's and mine) of my family bought houses while young, stayed there for 40 years plus, paid them off and then died leaving our parents their houses.....which were quickly sold for cash....and the cash was quickly spent.....on paying off their current house you ask? No, on "investing" in their landscaping or buying a $150,000 motorhome, or put away to be spent to fund their currently underfunded retirement. When they run out the plan is to live of their reverse mortgage (good luck) and burn through every last cent before death.
Not complaining. At least we have time to plan....God knows if their folks did what my folks did....my folks would be in a world of hurt.
Just pointing out an anectodal situation which sums up the current situation.
except that in 1970, the us was the world's leading creditor nation, with a strong industrial presence, almost 4/5 equity in their homes, a healthy level of income equality (especially in terms of ceo/worker ratios), relatively affordable housing compared to incomes, etc. bgates | 12.30.08 - 1:31 am | #
In 1970 I lived in a town in rural W Tennessee where they integrated for the first time and almost pulled the place apart - a white man shot an unarmed black teen and was acquitted on the grounds that it was self-defense. Meanwhile the Soviets & US nearly blew the whole world up - it came closer than any of us knew. And of course Love Canal [I lived near there for a while too].
I could go on and on. There was so much wrong with the world we were left with it wasn't funny. It's no different w/ you all - you're being left a mess, well welcome to the human race - it's different shit, same sandwich. Just try to kick the can down the road so my kids - the ones coming after you - maybe don't get left with so much crap. Do that and you all will be the next greatest generation.
BTW as far as affordable housing relative to incomes 70s vs now - it has ALWAYS been expensive in Cali & NYC... in the 70s they were both 4-5 times income in most places [which is where they will be again in a couple years]... the mythical 2X was only in rural towns in flyover. Guess what - in those places they are still 2X. You want to move next to me in Podunk I can guarantee you 2X or less.
Nothing much really changes - just our names and faces - the rock keeps circling.
While there are lots of interesting topics open for animated discussion (eg the NY Knicks, Jessica Alba, Stanley Kubrick movies, etc), they DON'T BELONG HERE! I come here (and post very infrequently) to read about finance, investing and the economy.
CR, is there any way to auto-block ridiculously OT posters? (I don't mean CR companion, I mean never actually publishing the kind of posts that insta-godwin a thread. If they never got posted, they'd never get a response and would go back to Daily Kos or Free Republic or whatever digital hellhole they crawled out of).
As a start, I'd say any post that contains the words "Hitler", "Israel" or "Palestine". Oh yeah, and for The Guest, may as well throw in "September 11", "WTC" and "squibs".
Seriously folks, it's getting as dumb as curbed.com here...
You can read young and old practicing 'generational warfare' going back to Roman times. Meanwhile the rock keeps circling the sun.
dryfly | 12.30.08 - 1:26 am | #
exactly. that's why I consider a lot of generational conflict is mostly misdirection to keep our eyes off the levers of power. and even that is sort of a misdirection, given that human nature is ultimately responsible, and doesn't seem to have changed much since the Paleolithic.
blackhalo,
Yes some generations could benefit by living in the boom time of the banking/credit cycles. Now if that generation is lower to middle class and they make it to the end of their lives with savings, will it be enough to pass on to their offspring.
Now we can see the babyboomers ain't gonna make it to the end before the down cycle fleecing sheared 'em. They won't pass a whole lot of accumulated wealth on to the next generation which may frustrate or anger that generation if they don't understand fleecing cycles.
Now the elite classes at the highest levels would typically be able to keep bloodline wealth going by having enough to pass on in good times or bad. True wealth may be able to survive cycles and generationally accumulate untold wealth that would maybe make say Bill Gates look like a pauper.
And imagine if you had enough wealth from generational super profits to actually be able to make or influence cycles to happen or at have enough to bet both sides and come out ahead. Whoa. Now we're getting somewhere
max, fewer OT subjects are more annoying than the annoyance that is OT subjects.
but, in the xmas spirit, here's a quote from the nyt article about Sirius which I enjoyed:
"Warren Buffett managed to get a 10 percent coupon from G.E. and Goldman Sachs, says Mr. Karmazin, speaking of the interest rate that Mr. Buffett, the Omaha investing legend, was promised for his recent investments in both companies. So if you are Sirius XM, what should the coupon be?"
the gazprom article in the nyt is also quite good:
"After five years of record prices for natural gas, Gazprom is $49.5 billion in debt. By comparison, the entire combined public and private sector debt coming due for India, China and Brazil in 2009 totals $56 billion, according to an estimate by Commerzbank."
Another spectacular selling thrust point on the EUR/USD:
01:05: 1.4100
01:32: 1.3994
Looks like it belongs at buck forty.
I'm speculating that this might be, as MrM observed, really about the JPY relative to both USD and EUR. The triangle arbitrage would translate the stable EUR/USD to stable EUR/JPY.
ust pointing out an anectodal situation which sums up the current situation. Average Joe | Homepage | 12.30.08 - 1:44 am | #
There are idiots in every generation. My father would tell me that of all his friends - maybe 20 who were still alive when he died - only one of them besides himself had a pot to piss in when they retired. AND THESE GUYS ALL GREW UP IN THE DEPRESSION!!! IF ANYONE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER - THEY SHOULD HAVE!!!
Nothing changes much in the human condition - some grow old and wise but most just grow old. It applies to boomers and generations before and after.
I'm not trying to rock your personal prejudices and bigotries - we all got 'em and I got mine too - but folks here are mostly smart enough to see that it isn't some mass conspiracy on the part of boomers to screw Xers. It's just the same as it always was - young pushing the old out of the way AS IT SHOULD BE. My kids can hardly wait to shove you all into the ditch too.
max flatow,
I know. You wanna keep the Duke...you know pilgrim...the John Wayne thematic as the 'official narrative' or 'consensus script' so we can just enjoy the movie and shut the F up. Pilgrim.
"My kids can hardly wait to shove you all into the ditch too."
it's a question of mass. those born in the 70s will always be relatively politically powerless by sheer numbers. and we don't want to push the boomers into the ditch, we're struggling to untie the rope around our waist attached to you as you keep on digging a ditch big enough for the next 3 generations. in any case, it is the youngsters now who will be paying for the boomer wreckage more than the Xers will be. many of us had a chance to earn some income of signficance in the W years.
Max.
I didn't mention 'WTC' and 'squibs'. You did.
As I said. If this no-no OT stuff comes up even briefly and the blog police freak out. No comments or reactions of course to the OT.
Just kind of a frenzied and nasty attempt usually like Drew & Max to silence the comments which was what I was talking about in the way of strange over-reactions to certain taboo topics in our land of open inquiry.
I've seen this over-reaction on blogs or 'live TV' to certain words or numbers and it's interesting.
The planning continues, this from a Nov 4 monograph published by U.S. Army War College, Strategic Studies Institute. The following is paraphrased from pages 32 and 33.
Known Unknowns: Unconventional "Strategic Shocks" in Defense Strategy Development âunforeseen economic collapse' and âpurposeful domestic resistance' are two âpaths' to disruptive domestic shock which might then require DoD to put its broad resources at the disposal of civil authorities to contain and reverse violent threats to domestic tranquility. Under the most extreme circumstances, this might include use of military force against hostile groups inside the United States. As in every situation throughout history, the whole ballgame rests on who defines 'purposeful', 'collapse', and 'hostile groups'. Known Unknowns
Dryfly...I agree with your premise...the grass is greener is a tride a true falacy believed and disproved time and time again.
I am not prejudiced against individuals of each generation...people are people...I don't think an entire generation of idiots are being replaced by the next generation of geniouses.
I just see trends, influenced by systemic and institutional "truths" that tend to decide how the current generation skrews the next.
For example...the "truth" that stocks outperform...thereby creating a generation of longterm buyers no matter the cost thus bidding up the prices and destroying the very lucrative capital returns that are only possible if you underpay.
Or, the tax incentive to keep mortgage debt and instead poor money into tax deferred 401k's...which created a generation of those with stock portfolio's woefully inadequate to cover the debt they were told was stupid to pay off.
All this makes me introspective as to what I am doing now that will upset my daughter later.
I do think some mistakes are bigger than others however....I don't think your arguing that every generation suffers equally.
Hey max flatow,
If you don't think that 911 stock hit and the almost immediate post-911 'Ownership Society' administration plan to get everyone breathing into homes is NOT about the Economy, where ya been?
it's a question of mass. bgates | 12.30.08 - 2:02 am | #
It has nothing to do with mass - it has everything to do with 'time'. We felt as powerless even in our numbers until we got to the age of 'power'. BTW - again my father said the same thing, their watershed was the Kennedy election - the passing of the baton if you will. By stagflation they were mostly destroyed just like most boomers are now - nothing changes. Make all the excuses or rationalizations you want to to justify your personal bigotries - whatever works for you.
You all will be there soon enough and for a fleeting second it will be swell - then there will be a new wave right behind you. That's not 'mass' it's biology.
Another weird comment from Dufus. See the OT controversial COMMENTS trigger very intense reactions. Let's just talk about Britney and Gen X and just forget it. The blog policing works. As you were sheeple. Worship the State in fear or shut up and enjoy your satellite TV. Hey there's somthing on the History Channel about how to exorcize Demons. Cool.
I do think some mistakes are bigger than others however....I don't think your arguing that every generation suffers equally. Average Joe | Homepage | 12.30.08 - 2:04 am | #
No - not every generation suffers the same - some get Auschwitz & Hiroshima others get wii. Neither US or EU born boomers or Xers are likely to suffer a whole lot - make or lose a little money, cry me a river. The cohorts after that not so sure. I think they got bigger issues and I don't see Xers falling all over themselves any more than boomers to get that right. What's Allen's line? Someday this war will end.
Alex DeLarge writes:
Since the P/I debate isn't going to die I will ask: Politically, is it actually bad for the US if Iran has nuclear weapons?
My read is that a nuclear Iran is an effective check on the "free hand" the US currently provides to Israel. Could M.A.D. be a more stable regime for the Middle East? Would American interests not be better served by this balance of power?
For Iran nuclear weapons would be totally about putting a check against the Saudi's and the US, nothing much more. Considering that, it seems to me to be a better angle to work things out politically so they don't develop nuclear weapons, since it's cheaper and leaves everyone in a better long term position. Either way despite the frothing propaganda, it's not nearly as big a worry as say, Saudi backed Islamic terror groups in (nuclear armed) Pakistan playing chicken with nuclear armed India.
Dufus,
I have a feeling 'hostile groups' will be anyone talking about the no-no subjects or topics or OT topics.
Ain't America in the New Century great?
@max flatow
Hey thanks for the 'intelligent' and 'warm & fuzzy' response. You have a nice day too, pilgrim.
See how we're all in this mess together. United we stand.
Don't worry blog police...the villains will win. There are no super heroes. And God doesn't exist as we know Him. And the villains hiding behind religion know this. Justice is an ideal. Justice like religion is just hope for the sheeple.
The sub human elite will drink your blood if they could but taking your wallet will hafta do for now.
Back to the diversions and escapism.
As you were blog police!
when will the myth that the stock market returns 9-11% over the long term die? sure, we may be in a short term fluctuation, but the last 10 years prove this to be false.
Listening to NPR. Reported on the ground in Gaza City.
Reporter asked the reporter how the city is preparing for a coming ground incursion by the Israeli Army. Reporter said that the people were anxious but were awaiting the Israelis so they could "exact their revenge" Not good. hope someone can call a TO here.
Zephyr,
Yeah the 'plan' of universal homeownership was probably a Grande diversion of incredible audacity. But it'll be a pretty good way to Bust this thing down & dirty for some vulture pickins extraordinaire.
So how will those of us living in California get paid our tax refund if we were dumb enough to actually pay more to the state than we should? I feel like I should be doing my taxes next week... with the state running out of money in February and all.
I guess I need to explain my previous post (Known Unknowns), or rather why I posted it.
The subject of 'the people rising up', or more colloquially, 'pitchforks' has been raised on several occasions in the comments. (Granted not in this one though) I just learned tonight of the paper I linked to and it semed pertinent to the discussion of pitchforks, etc. And my main point is the defining of those terms 'purposeful', 'collapse', and 'hostile groups'.
It's easy to make the case that if there's a complete nationwide breakdown in civil order in the US, that anybody with a brain will want it ended and order restored. And indeed many of the 'paths' leading to such a situation are way beyond widespread citizen discontent with the economy. However, the paper as written ignores the fact of the illegality and unconstitutionality of using the military to enforce the laws (Posse Comitas) and it also is a blueprint for policy to do just that. I think it's more than a trial balloon. It's laying groundwork.
It's in relation to citizen disillusionment with the economic problems that I worry about who defines those loaded terms 'purposeful', 'collapse', and 'hostile groups'. Any assumptions by any one of us as to what those mean or how widespread such a disruption would need to be to trigger a military response are just that - assumptions. The actual defining of both the terms themselves and the threshold past which such a policy would be invoked is in the hands of the very same folks who are running the bailout/economic rescue. That's of great concern to me and I'd argue, should be to all of us as well.
Thanks YLSP.
One last OT thing for you two party True Believers. Obama is proving he so far is ignoring his mandate with more 'hair of the dog' that bit us. Maybe when the core Dems realize they been had, the light bulb will go off and we can have a Talk. Can we have a talk? An OT talk. When the SHTF in a couplke of months?
The Dems are like those people in the Body Snatchers who have been taken over by some veggie alien and have lost their feelings to the central Control Brain.
I was a Dem thinking it was about helping the People when I deprogrammed myself to see that DEMs and Repubs are all beholden to the emotionless central Control Brain. You know The Puppet Masters or Invasion of the Body(mind) Snatchers. They Live. Hope for Peace.
" That's of great concern to me and I'd argue, should be to all of us as well."
it's an interesting item from the culture of dick, rummy and friends. they hate the bill of rights, habeus corpus, etc, and always have. nothing really new there.
folks on the left were a bit disappointed when obama eased up on the telecom spying amnesty issue. we'll see how these things play out.
never forget, 45% of the country is young-earth creationist. it only takes a few norquist-types on board to create a mandate based on those cretins.
stagflation didn't crush the boomers. they were barely 30 in 1979, generally younger. nor did it come with a particularly crushing debt burden. bgates | 12.30.08 - 2:31 am | #
I was referring to MY FATHER'S generation - the 'Greatest Generation' - read the ef'ing post. My point was they (TGG) came of age w/ Kennedy had their day in the sun and were crushed by stagflation - same thing has happened to the boomers though slightly different cause, slightly different result... had their ride and for most it's over. It will happen to most Xers and those behind them in their time. They call that life.
BTW - those Greatest Generation guys that got hosed so bad by stagflation? They mostly did it to themselves - not unlike the mess most boomers are in now. That too appears to be a universal.
It has nothing to do with relative numbers - it has everything to do with time & 'bad' [read that as 'human'] decisions made by people at those times. And we all tend to make similar mistakes and reap very similar outcomes. Very few win. It might look like the whole cohort is mad - it's just people being people.
And as for those Germans in the 1890s... if they were adults in 1890s where were they in the 1870s? Franko-Prussian laid a lot of the ground work for later wars... if they were BORN in 1890 they FOUGHT one of those later wars & some at least were a party to the cause of that war... which leads to later wars... on and on. Shit never changes.
Blaming aggregate outcomes on 'generations' is as hollow & bigoted as blaming on race, sex, religion, whatever - it's what INDIVIDUALS do at those key times that matter and unfortunately we tend to all make very similar mistakes - different beat, same tune - and end up at a similar spot... not all but most. Boomers will be no different... Xers will follow them off the cliff and unfortunately my kids generation will follow the Xers. C'est la vie.
Think about this Dufus if I may call you that. The Patriot Act with all the disturbing Executive Orders I think some concerning executive VP immunity for example were written one after another after 2001...it was seemingly written for a worse case scenario(discovery?) that was hard to envision with the 'official version'.
But as we see now that the Crash itself from the post-911,'Ownership Society', Credit Bubble/Credit Freeze collapse may indeed cause some civil unrest, the Executive Orders concerning martial law are making more sense now in retrospect. The crackdown on 'free speech' makes more sense now.
Going to where there is no extradition makes sense. It all makes so much OFF Topic sense now!
After wading through this whole thread, I have one comment:
Please try to remember that you are mentally ill, and thinking that the rest of us want to listen to you repeat your delusional belief system over and over is a symptom of that illness.
PapaSloth reporting from...One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. That's crazy man. Crazy. Think it'll work in court for Madoff. We're all crazy now. Good thematic. The last resort. Little hard to swallow but what else ya got. See ya'll in the New America. Welcome home.
excellent point, dry. in the shell of what was the kaiserchurch (sp?) in west berlin, there's a nice piece of art on the wall showing what look like mid 19th century prussian generals planning a campaign. a propaganda piece circa 1944 from the us ties that era together well with later events.
much as the arrogance and brutality of the prussian empire in the 1860s eventually became the 3d reich, so did the drugged-out banality of JFK eventually become Clinton and W. perhaps the boomers shouldn't be entirely blamed, they just took the stupidity of previous generations to unimagined new depths. in any case, our financial state in a few years should look a fair amount like berlin's physical state circa 1946.
My dad was in town, had a nice time enjoying the time together.
The one thing that bugs me is his staunch right-winger-ism. It's like he is a member of the "Church of FoxNews".
Channel surfing on XM and happened to come across a show talking about genetically modified food and the Monsanto corporation and how they have gotten in big with our government (rather our government has given them a ton of stuff).
Anyway, I guess there is some rule that Iraqi's cannot use non-genetically modified crops or something (not sure exactly) and have to use seed supplied by Monsanto (again, not sure exactly). My dad defended this practice by saying, "Well, they naturally modify the crops... genetic modification just works quicker."
I hadn't heard anything about this stuff before, and found the discussion quite interesting... yet I didn't know why my dad had such a visceral reaction against even the discussion.
Also on this show; there was discussion of ATF agents going to gun dealers and photocopying all their records of everyone who has bought a gun (of course this paperwork is required to be filled out). Naturally conversation leading to the discussion that the government could use this information to gun-grab. Again, my dad nicely pointed out that; "The reason they do this is to find terrorists who shouldn't have guns."
Not really a surprise to me, but still... I like America the free!
Don't worry papa. I've read sam vaknin.
These people who are in charge exhibit the symptoms. And you can always say I'm just projecting. Looking for justice is a fruitless loop to cuckoo-ville. I've learned a lot tonight just looking at the reactionary comments. Lights out.
*Course you may not be referring to my opinions.
I'm just paranoid IMO. But there was a shrink in the 60's who said if we are mentally ill, then that was the proper or a 'normal' response to our Society. It was all about Crazy assed Vietnam & agent orange back then. Remember?
it's what INDIVIDUALS do at those key times that matter and unfortunately we tend to all make very similar mistakes dryfly | 12.30.08 - 2:59 am | #
I tend to agree with you on this observation, but it makes me wonder why we are so incapable of learning from others' mistakes. It's almost like Darwinism is voided in a social/behavorial context. Perhaps the flaw is we cannot see 'others' as equivalent to ourselves and so therefore the survivalist instinct is not called out???
Sounds like a question Pavel would have an opinion on??
PapaSloth - when my belief and desire for an active and functioning capitalist market system, with as few distortions, limits, levies and imposts as possible, within the law and smart regulation, makes me a crazy man, the so fkn be it.
The failure of the system to function as honest participants expected have fkd over prosperity and its hope for not only American citizens but millions of others too. Your solutions are... absent. Thanks. Well played.
Fk off until you have something constructive to say.
PaPa,
And you are an internet blogger psychologist who does...shall we say psychological blog assessments. Any comments on the comments or just put downs which again verifies my whole premise tonight again. Anyway, lights out or do you wanna do your put down thing again. It's weird.
It's almost like Darwinism is voided in a social/behavorial context
On the contrary, I've recently concluded that ego is darwinian in that it promotes a wide range of differentiated behavior, different reactions to different environments.
What you do NOT want is identical reactions. That's monoculture, which is highly susceptible to die-off from a single disease.
.
dry,
I'm not feeling it. If all generations follow the same mistake, what, then, accounts for the 4 or so generations since the GD? It would seem that the events of 20's and 00's are substantially and structurally different than the 70's or 50's. So much so that they're entirely different animals.
And you are an internet blogger psychologist who does...shall we say psychological blog assessments. Any comments on the comments or just put downs which again verifies my whole premise tonight again. Anyway, lights out or do you wanna do your put down thing again. It's weird. the guest | 12.30.08 - 3:20 am | #
I didn't really think a further comment on my part was needed. You responded to a general comment as if it was aimed at you personally, and then self-diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic. You're obviously more familiar with your own circumstances then I am, so who am I to argue?
I haven't gotten the whiff of narcissistic personality disorder from you, though, which is a good thing. Paranoid schizophrenia is usually treatable, but it's almost impossible to treat NPD. I wish you well, sincerely.
PapaSloth - when my belief and desire for an active and functioning capitalist market system, with as few distortions, limits, levies and imposts as possible, within the law and smart regulation, makes me a crazy man, the so fkn be it. Counterpointer | 12.30.08 - 3:19 am | #
Y,
It's because GMO foods are controversial. Like food irradiation and they have to label this radiated stuff for consumers in Europe I think but here in the USA this stuff doesn't have to be labeled. It's a consumer safety health debate.
If the guest and I kinda agree on PapaSloth, then it's...
DNFTT time. Counterpointer | 12.30.08 - 3:25 am | #
I think the right time for that response was way back when the thread got stalled out on the israeli/palastinian clusterfuck. DNFTT is a great sentiment, but knowing when to apply it helps as well.
much more than that, it's an IP debate, and a subtle sovereignty debate (EG farmers being sued because wind/birds moved GM crops to their land). also, perhaps, a natl security debate.
monsanto is canadian. is there a canadian variation to godwin's law?
Papa, if you know anything about projection, you may be projecting if you know what I mean.
The point was to change the subject and to kinda cool down the ot stuff though right? You know a put down cease and desist. Are you honest? Little test for ya. I mean be transparent. What specific comments irritated you?
What specific comments irritated you? the guest | 12.30.08 - 3:31 am | #
There are currently 280 comments on this thread. I'm guessing 60% of them deal with the israeli/palastinian conflict, jews deserving to get screwed by Bernie Madoff because they're all greedy bastards, Mexican drug dealers firing rockets into San Diego (OK, I admit, I enjoyed that part), how we're all born-and-bred dopes who are brainwashed to believe authority as promulgated by main-stream media, and how we're all doomed because of the bailout and/or all doomed because the bailout isn't enough. And contrails.
Please, return to your originally scheduled discussion already in progress. Nothing to see here. Move along.
Some interesting quotes -
'Mr. LaChappelle has become one of the primary lenders around, Mr. Langlois said. "You can't go to a bank and get small loans to make ends meet, so you come to Rick."'
A loan to make ends meet? Have the meanings of the terms 'loan' and 'make ends meet' changed?
'Mr. Arthur figured no bank would lend him such a small amount for a month or two. So he pawned a dump trailer as well as other equipment and a smattering of jewelry. The money, he said, paid his work crew, insurance and other expenses.
"You have to have a Plan B," he said. "If you don't have one, you'd better find one fast."'
Plan B is a pawn shop?
'One client, he said, brought in a fur coat from Saks Fifth Avenue that retailed at $9,000. She told him she needed a loan to help buy private-school uniforms for her child.'
And what will she pawn when the kids tuition is due?
What really shocked me was an off hand explanation - 'Though fees vary from state to state and are set by law, the cost of a typical $75 loan is about $15 a month.'
Incredible - wouldn't it be better to just sell the stuff on e-bay or craigslist?
Papa,
NPD as sam vaknin writes isn't treatable with drugs or typical therapy but you can recover so there is hope for those afflicted. Same with sociopathy also called psychopathy. Since there seems to be an epidemic of these personality disorders in the news, let's just hope that all those who are afflicted will choose to recover.
NPD as sam vaknin writes isn't treatable with drugs or typical therapy but you can recover so there is hope for those afflicted. the guest | 12.30.08 - 3:40 am | #
I've known narcissists. The problem is, they're extremely resistant to treatment because they're incapable of acknowledging that there's anything that needs to be fixed. That's sort of the sine-qua-non of the disease.
I wonder if TPTB realize GM and Chrysler will be like another AIG - a neverending stream of fixes? Next will be the States, then the pension plans, then unemployment funds, . . . . . . . . . .
Do you ever talk the issues OT or not? the guest | 12.30.08 - 3:42 am | #
There's talking about the issues, and chewing over them ad-infinitum like a toothless man chews an overcooked steak. I have yet to see one issue get resolved in this thread, and I'm not holding out a lot of hope that I'll see one soon.
Frankly, I don't even know what we're talking about any more. I simply pointed out that believing that other people want to listen to you (the generic you, not you specifically) repeat your delusional belief system over and over again was a symptom of mental illness. For some reason, you decided to take this personally. Is that an issue we should be discussing?
Not everything is reducible to individuals - one of the enduring illusions of the me generation. Remember that term? Even more amusing was the recent spate of articles talking about how the me generation was becoming the we generation - right around the time the bills are coming due. Bills 'we' can all pay together, since 'me' paying the bill is just too unfair. rent_to_own | 12.30.08 - 3:22 am | #
I notice that the focus seems to be on the "boomers" of the USA. Wait until the generations outside the US start wondering when they get theirs. You know it's bad when the generation of 'slackers' starts complaining! When did that meme change?
And like Papa Sloth, that's pointed at you! and you! and especially you.
If you don't think some of this OT stuff qualifies as issues for discussion and individual opinions, we can go back to the world in unconditional acceptance of it all I guess.
Or compliance. Right. Would this be your preference?
Where are you at personally on the authoritarianism scale?
actually, those are largely in the front third of the thread. it's the 5% that are solely whining about OT posts without any actual content of their own that I find the most annoying. that's where you help.
Wow - this makes the U.S. government look so much more credit worthy to me. I feel compelled to buy more Treasury Bills so I can receive almost no interest for lending my hard earned cash to these very credit worthy folks who are very wisely propping up the automakers.
o way...
Foist
Hurt but not surprised. This isn't even the end of the requirements either. Now they can dump billions on the Treasury...
With every tax filing in 2009 the IRS will send out a T-Shirt that says "BOHICA".
What a mistake.
What an expensive mistake.
What a recurring expensive mistake.
Heh...not a surprise...
Sad to say the remaining bonds not tendered should soar tomorrow...
"A Treasury official said the new program didn't have a specific dollar limit."
pfft...dollar limits are for idiots. dollar limits suck. how nice would your life be if you had no dollar limits on your "programs?"
"What a recurring expensive mistake."
--Mad Mullah
The best is yet to come.
Now for the credit cards.
WTF doesn't get bailed out?
Hi all. I hope I'm not missing too much, but I'm having a great time! I went on a long ranger guided tour of Carlsbad Caverns, and I hiked Canyon de Chelly today. The weather is great - although it was cold this morning - single digits!
Best to all.
sc writes:
WTF doesn't get bailed out?
sc | 12.29.08 - 10:23 pm | #
responsible savers
CR:
Glad you're having a good time.
Canyon de Chelly is worth every single digit of cold that there is.
enjoy...
To paraphrase the old sailor's curse:
dollars, dollars everywhere.
not a penny to lend.
I'm thinking gold $1500 in 2009.
Baseball, Hot Dogs, Apple Pie and Chevrolet
ext we'll go back in time and bail out quepasa.com, pets.com, and all the companies that fizzled out after the biotech and linux bubbles.
Motherf#cking Cerberus will make a fortune off this
Jesse's Café Américain
It is starting to become obvious to the rest of the world that the reserve status of the dollar is toast.
We are so dead in terms of trade shortly. Even our friendly Chinese pawn shop may cut us off!!!
Well, so long and thanks for all the fish!!! Now that we are essentially printing our way out of deflation, I guess that soon enough real estate prices will stabilize. Too bad it means that fixed incomes are going to be trashed, again. Ready for the bond vigilantes and certificates of confiscation.
Jas, you might want to rethink your long term investment in treasuries...
Someday this war's gonna end...
a) gold $1500 is what Jim Rogers have been arguing for long time.
b) Cerebrus - Lucky btch
YouTube - The Who - I Can't Explain
Remember how we were all so worked up about the TARP when it was first proposed, thinking about all the different ways in which it would be abused? We were such optimists then.
Too bad it means that fixed incomes are going to be trashed, again.
Citizen AllenM | 12.29.08 - 10:32 pm |
dude, we'll just bail them out when the time comes. next!
regading YUAN becoming one of reserve currencies..
its a joke right ?
I mean its not even in free float !!
Bond Girl - It's funny cause it's true.
I sense lots of trouble down the road from this reckless throwing of money at problems. I know that some economists, like Krugman, say it is needed, but I don't think he is God and may well be very wrong. Mindless panic is hardly a good way to approach a terrible problem. Panic seems to be the order of the day.
Would it have been so terrible to try trickle-up for a change? Govt. gives us credits to pay off debt. We pay GMAC our debt. They stay solvent. No one panics.
Am I missing a down side?
I have a sense that Kuwait's ditching the Dow Chemical deal has something to do with the decline of our reputation economically. You don't suppose our rep is slipping, do you?
Hi all. I hope I'm not missing too much, but I'm having a great time! I went on a long ranger guided tour of Carlsbad Caverns...
OMG! That's bat country!
YouTube - bat country fear and loathing in las vegas
I highly recommend this video presentation by Richard Koo on "Great Recessions - Lessons Learned From Japan".
Bottom line is to expect massive fiscal stimulus, CRE deflation.
What if the world begins to view the US Treasury as one big Ponzi scheme? Madoff on a vast, incredible scale. That would not be good, would it?
Surprising they haven't already Hal. All that Chinese buying of T-bonds was just vendor financing.
Hal - I assume your questions are rhetorical.
Hal writes:
I sense lots of trouble down the road from this reckless throwing of money at problems. I know that some economists, like Krugman, say it is needed, but I don't think he is God and may well be very wrong.
It is just philosophy. You can't have a scientific opinion about an isolated event.
@Citizen AllenM
See the end of the previous thread, with Austin Tex arguing at 9:52 about seeming recent interventions in EUR/USD
"What if the world.."
They do. I'm quite confident that the folks at the big Asian CBs are every bit as disturbed and alarmed as the average poster here. They just don't want the whole closet full of other shoes to drop at the same time.
"Rhetorical"??? You mean silly or frightening?
"As you can see, the money from my right hand goes into my left hand. My left hand then takes options against the right hand and the cash is rebalanced. The cash left in the right hand is then given to the left hand, and then another distributed redistribution upon which everyone is made whole and fully operational."
Rhetorical as in kinda obvious.
May We No Longer Be Silent
May We No Longer Be Silent
Bishop Chanes courage was to no avail. As Justin Raimondo reported (Antiwar.com, 27 December), when Americas new leader of change was informed of Israels massive air attack on the Gaza Ghetto, an area of 139 square miles where Israel confines 1.4 million Arabs and tightly controls the inflow of all resources--food, medicine, water, energy--Americas president-elect Obama had no comment.
According to the Jerusalem Post (26 December), at 11:30 a.m., more than 50 fighter jets and attack helicopters swept into Gazan airspace and dropped more than 100 bombs on 50 targets. . . . Thirty minutes later, a second wave of 60 jets and helicopters struck at 60 targets . . . More than 170 targets were hit by IAF aircraft throughout the day. At least 230 Gazans were killed and over 780 were wounded . . .
As I write, news reports are that Israel is sending tanks and infantry reinforcements in preparation for a ground invasion of Gaza.
Israels excuse for its violence is that from time to time the Palestinian resistance organization, Hamas, fires off rockets into Israel to protest the ghetto life that Israel imposes on Gazans. The rockets are ineffectual for the most part and seldom claim Israeli casualties. However, the real purpose for the Israeli attack is to destroy Hamas.
the open ended time frame and unlimited budget of this program make this a three thumbs up doomer porn news item for me.
although it was cold this morning - single digits!
Calculated Risk | Homepage | 12.29.08 - 10:23 pm | #
Yow! Kinda chilly for a relaxed jaunt! It all sounds fantastic...
going through some papers today, i found a $50 EE bond from 1980. i wonder if it will make it to final maturity. maybe i should just mail it straight to cerberus.
The Crash: What Went Wrong (washingtonpost.com)
WAPO's well written & researched EOY article:
The Crash: What Went Wrong?
How did the most dynamic and sophisticated financial markets in the world come to the brink of collapse? The Washington Post examines how Wall Street innovation outpaced Washington regulation.
However, the real purpose for the Israeli attack is to destroy Hamas.
Actually I think Israel would like to destroy and kill all Palestinians, but don't quite have the guts to do so. It would seem too much like the famous Nazi Holocaust.
Damn it. I'm reading through three long assed threads and we still haven't solved the Israeli/Palestine problem,...how many more threads will it take? Has Comrade Kristina got her fill yet?
"However, the real purpose for the Israeli attack is to destroy Hamas."
--Anonymous
What do you think would happen if Mexican drug lords were firing rockets into San Diego daily?
Just a rhetorical question.
I'll talk to some dealer friends and get thier rate sheets w/stips asap or upon changes...
This is real bad when you realize all the bad auto paper that gmac bought...
A lot of 130% LTV's on 60K cars that are worth 25K or less....
0 down, deferred payment, 0 interest 72 month loans coming..
this is nuts...
The US Treasury has money pouring in from foreign CBs on which it pays interest. It hopes these "investors" won't ask for their capital back on any significant scale. If they were to do so, what would it do? Isn't that pretty much like the problem that Madoff faced? (Of course he couldn't print the dollars to pay them off).
What do you think would happen if Mexican drug lords were firing rockets into San Diego daily?
sm_landlord | Homepage | 12.29.08 - 10:53 pm | #
Our threads would be polluted by different 'true believers'?
"Our threads would be polluted by different 'true believers'?"
--sdtfs
No Doubt.
What do you think would happen if Mexican drug lords were firing rockets into San Diego daily?
I don't get the connection. Did the US corral the drug lords into a ghetto like corner of Mexico? Did the US recently steal their territory with settlements? (I know the US did this over a century ago, but not very recently). How are Palestinians like drug lords? Are they selling drugs and corrupting Israeli youth?
Now there is nothing stopping Hank from getting his hands on the second 350B.
20 days to spend 350B. Can he do it? This could be a new reality show.
A lot of 130% LTV's on 60K cars that are worth 25K or less....
Ultimately, I think it is all about moving the inventory off the dealer's car lots... whatever it takes. Look for some killer deals in the near future. Same thing regards to housing inventory with tax credits, subsidized low interest rates, etc. etc.
Do deficits really matter? I contend that they do not. Its all about human motivation. If you can get people to be productive members of society by deficit spending, then I am all for it.
We are working our way towards one global currency. It will happen and the USA will not turn into zimbabwe because we are much better than "those people"
Spend spend spend away, especially if it benefits private military contractors who happen to donate large sums of money to whichever party controls the government.
Rebear,
doesn't he have to go to congress for it? I have rec'd mixed msgs on this..
I can't believe congress would give him money with 20 days left....
I don't get the connection. Did the US corral the drug lords into a ghetto like corner of Mexico? Did the US recently steal their territory with settlements? (I know the US did this over a century ago, but not very recently). How are Palestinians like drug lords? Are they selling drugs and corrupting Israeli youth?
Hal | 12.29.08 - 10:58 pm | #
YES! And the MSM isn't telling you the whole tragic story. Look on the Internet, Google Mexican drug lord missle launchers!
"I don't get the connection. Did the US corral the drug lords into a ghetto like corner of Mexico?"
Yes.
"Did the US recently steal their territory with settlements? (I know the US did this over a century ago, but not very recently)."
Yes.
"How are Palestinians like drug lords?"
They are corrupt criminal gangs.
"Are they selling drugs and corrupting Israeli youth?"
No, they are killing civilians indiscriminately. Which is worse, IMHO.
How does not get what is going on in the middle east? You have criminal gangs posing as governments.
What do you think would happen if Mexican drug lords were firing rockets into San Diego daily?
sm_landlord
Linking drug lords in Mexico to rockets shows the lack of education you have in this matter, so what it seems you are getting at, is a question of how San Diego would go about rounding up Mexicans in Tijuana and placing them into a concentration camp and then shutting off their water and food supplies and then subjecting them to non-human conditions. It is just possible that these Mexicans just might be upset enough that they would engage The Free People of San Diego and attempt to communicate, versus die like dogs
Doc at the Radar Station | 12.29.08 - 10:59 pm.
Yep. I'm looking to upgrade my 93 Surburban wiht a real pretty new one. I actually have need of a 4wd. Pavement ends before I get home and right now there is about a foot of snow on the ground.
Comrade V: I took the liberty of posting your question about finding a home for World War I stuff on another blog.
Blog Them Out of the Stone Age › What Can the Johnson Professor Do For You?
I hope they can give you a useful answer. I know that mine weren't worth spit.
NW
What the fuck are the jews doing with their jets you fucker?
Sorry.....typing with my nose.
I have a sense that Kuwait's ditching the Dow Chemical deal has something to do with the decline of our reputation economically. You don't suppose our rep is slipping, do you?
Hal | 12.29.08 - 10:37 pm | #
OT: I know this pales in comparison to enlightened anonymous public debate on war in the middle east, but does anyone have any thoughts on this deal falling through and the overall health of DC?
is a question of how San Diego would go about rounding up Mexicans in Tijuana and placing them into a concentration camp and then shutting off their water and food supplies and then subjecting them to non-human conditions.
Anonymous | 12.29.08 - 11:03 pm | #
We call it the INS and really they're mostly Central Americans living in squalor in the Tijuana River valley, we leave it to the corrupt TJ officials to do the dirty work.
All Fall Down | 12.29.08 - 11:03 pm
Yep. I'm looking to upgrade my 93 Surburban wiht a real pretty new one. I actually have need of a 4wd. Pavement ends before I get home and right now there is about a foot of snow on the ground.
There are a lot of folks out there who don't have much alternative than a large truck and if the price is low enough they can move that inventory. I would consider a new Silverado 4x4, ... if the price is low enough.
OT: I know this pales in comparison to enlightened anonymous public debate on war in the middle east, but does anyone have any thoughts on this deal falling through and the overall health of DC?
RockyR
$35 oil didn't help. Kuwait walked w/o a penalty. Negotiating ploy probably.
cd,
I think the legislation allows Hank to collect the second installment if Congress doesn't vote on the bill [or something like that].
Moreover he probably has already spent the first 350B.
Merry Pimcmas
Guadalupe Mountains National Park - Guadalupe Mountains National Park - McKittrick Canyon (U.S. National Park Service)
McKittrick Canyon is also a beautiful hike in the Guadalupes, very close to Carlsbad
I have a sense that Kuwait's ditching the Dow Chemical deal has something to do with the decline of our reputation economically. You don't suppose our rep is slipping, do you?
Hal
Ain't got nothing to do with some goddamn rep, if momey can be made
Merry Pimcmas
Nice one
anon, you're not going to find Virtue making a home on either side of this.
The history, as you surely know, reflects very poorly on all participants from the beginning.
burnside -
I'm almost positive you'll be proved wrong on that opinion.
"Linking drug lords in Mexico to rockets shows the lack of education you have in this matter, so what it seems you are getting at, is a question of how San Diego would go about rounding up Mexicans in Tijuana and placing them into a concentration camp and then shutting off their water and food supplies and then subjecting them to non-human conditions."
Blah. Northern Mexico would be a series of smoking craters in less than a week. You wouldn't find body parts, because they would all be incinerated. There is no way that the U.S. would put up with that sort of crap.
The lack of education must refer to the double standard that is applied to terrorists in the middle east. Anywhere else in the world, they would have trouble finding DNA traces of the troublemakers. The so-called "Palistinians" are lucky they are not trying this sort of operation in Africa. They would not do as well there.
REBear & cd --
I think the legislation allows Hank to collect the second installment if Congress doesn't vote on the bill [or something like that].
You are correct. Once Paulson requests the other $350B, Congress would have to re-convene and vote to deny it.
The TARP is a beautiful thing.
..and here come the Jew-haters. C'mon people, I came here from prudentbear to avoid this bs. Take your ignorant nonsense to dailykos.
Enough already about goddamn Israel and Palestine, I'm 50 yrs old and for my whole life this episode has been on one 50 yr loop. Fuck 'em both. Let the Israelis kill all the Palestinians and let the Palestinians kill all the Israelis. Poof! Problem solved
Drew,
Just hate criminals.
What do you think would happen if Mexican drug lords were firing rockets into San Diego daily?
As in: more than 60 times per day, every day?
What do you think would happen if Mexican drug lords were firing rockets into San Diego daily?
Just a rhetorical question.
sm_landlord | Homepage | 12.29.08 - 10:53 pm | #
More like fireing them 100 miles to the east of SD, but not an anallogous situation since the US has not turned TJ into a concentration camp. Actually I think the solution is for Egypt to open its border with Gaza and basically have it defacto become part of egypt, perhaps with some sort of fig leaf independence.
"Let the Israelis kill all the Palestinians and let the Palestinians kill all the Israelis. Poof! Problem solved"
--Anonymous
Yup. Let God sort them out.
If it weren't for the politics of oil, we could have safely ignored this stupid dispute. And probably there would have been much less killing.
No, MLM.
It simply will not be settled to anyone's entire satisfaction. No question of some generally agreed upon 'proof of virtue'.
theme music
YouTube - LCE055 The Merry Minuet
And we should hate the use of depleted uranium.
"Actually I think the solution is for Egypt to open its border with Gaza and basically have it defacto become part of egypt, perhaps with some sort of fig leaf independence."
--Dirk
If only the Egyptians would have them.
Lord knows, that has been tried.
Priceless that US is calling for ceasefires in Israel-Palestine and India-Pakistan.
How would we react if some countries called for us to ceasefire in the Iraq and Afghanistan campaigns?
If these countries/leaders want to fight each other, than let them fight. The Palestines aren't the only peoples who have been displaced in the history of mankind, nor were the Israelites.
I think everyone's stance on this issue is way colored by which doctrine they share with the people displaced or doing the displacement.
As far as America we are completely schizo. Israel can do what it wants, but when Serbia tries to do the same thing against their "uprising" we bomb the Serbs. Not sure we did too much to help those ethnic groups being pushed out by Russia (Chechnya, the stans?) .
Maybe its just because I talk to Serbian folk and some Muslim folk and attend an evangelical church. To the victors go the borders. I know the "international community" would damn near frown on this sentiment but it seems to be how the world works... if you win the war you get the land. The people will probably be a problem.
I think us North American's can't really fathom the root of some of these conflicts. It's simpletonish to say something like "those backwards folks are racist"... but I believe there could be some truth to that.
When and if the U.S. living conditions become like Gaza, then there will be more empathy from our own lived experience. The pyramid scheme has ended so anything is possible on the way down.
emo-rebear..thanks for update...
though it killed my buzz..
this is madness..I actually bought paper for thier subprime unit in past and I can honestly tell you it's very bad..
CR: I was a guide at the Caverns in 1968. I met my first husband there. We explored New Cave before it was developed. I can't imagine what it is like now, since it was quite an adventure for me then. Hopefully it was an adventure for you as well. We need those adventures.
Another Madoff investor bites the dust:
Eric Roth Sues Over Madoff: "Gump" Writer Lost Everything
Somehow it just doesn't seem so tragic when Hollyweird types are the victims. I suppose this indicates some latent hostility to Hollyweird.
Where do the Christian-haters come from?
Where do the Christian-haters come from?
the guest
Ex-Christian church goers
And this is really rather funny, at least to me:
Andy Borowitz: Bin Laden Latest Madoff Casualty
NorkaWest writes:
"I took the liberty of posting your question about finding a home for World War I stuff on another blog."
Extremely kind of you, and your enthusiastic support has galvanized our efforts to find a proper home for these few reamining threads of an epic story. Not was of German descent, spoke fluent German, and yet left his remote farm to spend his youth fighting in a bitter struggle with an enemy who spoke his native langauge and shared his culture. The picture postcards from the trenches are riveting. Can't imagine what the experience must have been like. Bends your preconceptions, no?
The weather is great - although it was cold this morning - single digits!
Calculated Risk | Homepage | 12.29.08 - 10:23 pm | #
A mid-winter heat wave. Did you sunbathe?
Let the Israelis kill all the Palestinians and let the Palestinians kill all the Israelis. Poof! Problem solved.
Guest, what's with your inane non-sequitors and half-truths? Please, take your garbage to a lesser site.
I just don't understand how someone could lose their entire fortune to someone like Madoff.
Let the Israelis kill all the Palestinians and let the Palestinians kill all the Israelis. Poof! Problem solved
What about all the jews that want to cash in on this though?
Easy Rider Marijuana and UFO's
YouTube - Easy Rider Marijuana and UFO's
"Somehow it just doesn't seem so tragic when Hollyweird types are the victims. I suppose this indicates some latent hostility to Hollyweird."
--Hal
People who (formerly had) a lot of money are not sympathetic victims.
Journalists identify with people like themselves. Largely low income edge-dwellers.
"I just don't understand how someone could lose their entire fortune to someone like Madoff."
--Bond Girl
You underestimate the power of affinity scams. Seriously. Everyone who has serious money is not necessarily smart. A common misconception.
Would it have been so terrible to try trickle-up for a change? Govt. gives us credits to pay off debt. We pay GMAC our debt. They stay solvent. No one panics.
Am I missing a down side?
Outsider | 12.29.08 - 10:36 pm | #
But how would that have helped Pimco & Goldman Sacks?
The hate has to stop and war breeds hate. Who is breeding war? The war mongers and war profiteers must be stopped. Who are the war mongers, rabble rousers, and war profiteers? We are being prepared for WWIII and we aren't debating why? We aren't debating who?
WWII was escalated from Depression and from the results and war reparations from WWI. Who funds world wars?
Time to look at the links between global depressions and world war. Time to look at how global depressions are caused.
CR needs to return.
Seriously. This is turning into a neo-nazi love fest.
sm_landlord writes:
"If only the Egyptians would have them.
Lord knows, that has been tried."
The Palestinians didn't get along so well with the Jordanians either, if you recall.
Black September in Jordan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Of course, we've had our own problems with the Isrealis:
USS Liberty incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But that's the beginning of a much more interesting story. You should visit here if you ever get the chance:
Error Notice - NSA/CSS
You'll find some interesting exhibits. I worked for the Director who created it (in civilian life). Its for real.
OT:
Let me think Ken again for CR Companion.
It wasn't until today that I added my own mix to the [Edit Banned Phrases], but I definitely going to do my part to self-moderate these threads now that age-old debates are popping up here.
Thanks, Ken.
A little thread music from John Prine
Drew,
What are you talking about? You are blog policing. I'm saying religion is a cover sometimes for criminals. And I mean every religion. radicals hide behind religious principles and generate war and violence. That is the underlying problem plus ethnic genocide in the name of religious wars.
Why would these comments have you kick me off this blog? Heck, this isn't even an open thread either but I jumped in on some OT comments underway. Let's talk issues brought up instead of playing comment cop...
Bends your preconceptions, no?
Comrade V | 12.29.08 - 11:27 pm | #
Yes, WWI was an excuse for European civilization to commit suicide. They didn't quite suceed; but wasn't for lack of effort.
Prior to WWI, much of the Midwest was bilingual (English and German) with German newspapers, theaters, and schools. After the war, it was all gone. Amazing what can happen to a country in 4 years?
See the end of the previous thread, with Austin Tex arguing at 9:52 about seeming recent interventions in EUR/USD
MrM | 12.29.08 - 10:41 pm | #
Worth repeating.
Interest rates to ZERO, currency devaluation....
I'm thinking this round of intervention with autos begins to get viewed as trade war material. What's next ?
"The hate has to stop and war breeds hate. Who is breeding war? The war mongers and war profiteers must be stopped."
--the guest
War goes on all the time. It all comes down to how much attention we pay to it.
Have you looked at the news coming out of Africa recently? Constant, ongoing war. Millions dying. That is not about first world nations and mega-corps, it is tribal warfare, the oldest kind there is.
You underestimate the power of affinity scams. Seriously. Everyone who has serious money is not necessarily smart. A common misconception.
sm_landlord | Homepage | 12.29.08 - 11:31 pm | #
Sure, but so many of these people went through middlemen in order to invest with him. I worked on the retail side of things while in grad school, and for the clients that we were placing with external money managers and hedge funds.... I would have been absolutely terrified of putting all (or the majority) of someone's wealth in one place.
I guess it does not surprise me that there are wealthy people out there who are more than happy just to let someone else do something with their money so they do not have to think about it. But it does surprise me that so many FAs with heaps of assets under management could be so stupid.
Drew,
Baloney. You just can't handle the questions. But we have to ask questions on the eve of more war. Don't ya think that's reasonable?
Talking about nazis or fascism may be relevant to economies turning to authoritarnism in deflationary times. Don't ya think? If history has any lessons at all.
"begins to get viewed as trade war material"
in any other case, i'd say yes, but I think the potential partisans in that one are a bit too frightened to engage in serious saber-rattling.
same goes with the mysterious urge to not sell treasuries despite miniscule rates. how many jobs does china need to create every year to keep the rural folk rushing into coastal cities fed? at this point, i'm sure they're more interested in not losing them. this chills the PRC PTB.
NorkaWest writes:
"Amazing what can happen to a country in 4 years?"
You bet, take the last 4 (2004-08)!
Bond Girl --
I just don't understand how someone could lose their entire fortune to someone like Madoff.
You mean because he's Jewish?
Re: "I just don't understand how someone could lose their entire fortune to someone like Madoff."
--Bond Girl
This place was a lot more fun six months ago!
sm_landlord,
Yes. point taken...war is ubiquitous...but the nations with the nukes are of concern for everyone in the global 'community' I think...Yes...we are told to be petrified of Iran getting nukes but Pakistan, India, etc. have nukes...
I don't think GMAC cleared the final hurdle to become a bank holding company, and that is why the Treasury threw money at GMAC tonight.
This is from Saturday:
GRAND BLANC, Mich. (AP) -- Even after a crucial deadline came and went, the financing arm of General Motors Corp. remained silent Saturday on whether it cleared a final hurdle to become a bank holding company and gain access to billions in federal bailout money.
Bond Girl --
I just don't understand how someone could lose their entire fortune to someone like Madoff.
You mean because he's Jewish?
Nemo | Homepage | 12.29.08 - 11:44 pm | #
No, because simple due diligence and common sense should have prevented it.
Bond Girl writes:
"I guess it does not surprise me that there are wealthy people out there who are more than happy just to let someone else do something with their money so they do not have to think about it. But it does surprise me that so many FAs with heaps of assets under management could be so stupid."
Infatuated with their own self importance by "who they know". SM_Landlord is on point.
The jews didn't care about due diligence, they relied on corruption and fraud!
Get back on topic or I swear I'm going to pull this thread
Drew,
Ya have to be more 'specific'.
What are the 'non-sequitors' and 'half-truths' are ya talkin bout?
I'll discuss whatever.
Kerkorian owned 107.1 million Ford shares, or 4.9% of the company, in late October, when Tracinda reported in a regulatory filing that it had unloaded 7.3 million shares and planned to sell the rest of its holdings by the end of the year.
Because it owned less than 5% of the company -- the regulatory threshold for reporting changes in stock ownership -- Tracinda was not required to file information with the Securities and Exchange Commission regarding the more recent sales, such as when the shares were sold or at what price.
But Kerkorian, who began buying Ford shares in April and spent about $1 billion acquiring a 6.5% stake in the automaker, clearly took a bath on the investment.
Came late to the party tonight but but sometimes war is good, there are good and bad Jews, Arabs and Christians. Western money thought to a degree socializes differences in cultures and GMAC paper used to be almost as good as T-Paper. Ok, I need to define T-Paper.
Interesting times.
So what makes people here think that gold will retain value? In my opinion, the value in otherwise worthless metals, notes, or coins is just a promise waiting to be broken.
You mean because he's Jewish?
Nemo | Homepage | 12.29.08 - 11:44 pm
One would think a Scot would know a thing or two about getting picked on.
"But it does surprise me that so many FAs with heaps of assets under management could be so stupid."
--Bond Girl
Really? By FAs do you mean what exactly?
The business is done by affinity: golf clubs, country clubs, word of mouth. You have no idea how stupid most rich people are. The smart ones have family offices with smart people running them. The rest are suitable victims for whatever fraud comes along. Your typical rich person has no idea where their money really came from, or what to do with it. Think star athletes, star actors, star producers, star models, etc. Serious money mostly comes to people by accident, through luck. Only a few are up to dealing with the results.
When you live in a lottery society, it should not be surprising that many people with money have no idea how to handle it.
G'nite
More like fireing them 100 miles to the east of SD, but not an anallogous situation since the US has not turned TJ into a concentration camp. Actually I think the solution is for Egypt to open its border with Gaza and basically have it defacto become part of egypt, perhaps with some sort of fig leaf independence.
Dirk | Homepage | 12.29.08 - 11:16 pm | #
Israelis would say "From Dirk's lips (or finger tips since it's a keyboard) to God's ears (or eyes if he's reading it on the internet - btw what kinda bandwidth he must have)... point is the Israelis would be happier than hell if the Egyptians on one side and Jordanians on the other TOOK OWNERSHIP of what was once their turf.
Why doesn't it happen - THEY DON'T WANT THE DAMNED PALESTINIAN PROBLEM EITHER!!!
Dec. 30 (Bloomberg) -- Japans economy will probably shrink at an annual 12.1 percent pace this quarter, the sharpest drop since 1974, as exports collapse, Barclays Capital said.
Gross domestic product in the three months ending tomorrow will fall at almost three times the 4.1 percent rate previously predicted, said Kyohei Morita, chief Japan economist at Barclays in Tokyo, after reports last week showed industrial production and exports posted the biggest declines on record in November.
Given the speed and the length of the contraction, this recession could be the most severe in the postwar era, Morita said. We expect negative growth will continue for a fifth straight quarter to the April-June period of 2009.
Drew,
My point is there are tensions even between Americans and instead of United We Stand, it'll be more a case of Divided We Fall.
I'm not some radical moralist but I think the rule of law and the culture here in the USA is going down the drain and I used to think criticisms about the decline of morality was bogus clap trap.
Bond Girl --
Actually, I am only half Scottish. (Or a little less; there is some Irish mixed in there, too.) My other half is Italian...
Besides, I was making a joke -- and a mockery of tonight's comments.
Madoff was trusted. He was successful partially because it was hard to put money with him; he actually turned people away. So when someone got the "honor" of investing with him, the tendency was to put in as much as he would allow.
A truly remarkable scam. Also a unique one, I suspect. Not that most people will believe it.
!= » Ideology 2.0
word.
I think us North American's can't really fathom the root of some of these conflicts. It's simpletonish to say something like "those backwards folks are racist"... but I believe there could be some truth to that.
YLSP | 12.29.08 - 11:21 pm | #
I know some folks who 'get it' - but they a Lakota & Mdewaketon 'Sioux'.
Wow... I'm new here, but this place appears to coming completely unhinged. The information posted on the blog is great, but these recent comments - geez!
dryfly,
Yes.
Now, an interesting fork on this thought. Following the logic one would have to say, "If you are going to fight a war make damn sure you win."
I think its pretty clear that America would have an advantage in any type of military battle that will be a hinge to history. But I'm not sure about the economic warfare that will follow. It seems like as far as the economic war goes, everyone knows where we are and what our battle plan is (thanks Bernanke). Hence, we are at a severe disadvantage. Furthermore, you can bet your bottom amero that those fighting us in a current/ongoing economic war will make damn sure they don't lose.
I don't think GMAC cleared the final hurdle to become a bank holding company, and that is why the Treasury threw money at GMAC tonight.
WT | 12.29.08 - 11:48 pm | #
I thought the same thing.
RR, I think everyone here is going postal from the Chinese water torture - watching our country's future being handed out as chips to allow the crooks at the table a few more losing hands.
And no one stopping it.
IMO Israel is just performing its own Dosadi Experiment.
Besides, I was making a joke -- and a mockery of tonight's comments.
Nemo | Homepage | 12.29.08 - 11:58 pm | #
I got it - it was well said & timely.
I think its pretty clear that America would have an advantage in any type of military battle that will be a hinge to history. But I'm not sure about the economic warfare that will follow. It seems like as far as the economic war goes, everyone knows where we are and what our battle plan is (thanks Bernanke). Hence, we are at a severe disadvantage. Furthermore, you can bet your bottom amero that those fighting us in a current/ongoing economic war will make damn sure they don't lose.
YLSP | 12.30.08 - 12:04 am | #
Agreed - we've got some pretty dumb economic 'generals'... and I don't care if you at it from a lib or con perspective... dumb is dumb.
"I just don't understand how someone could lose their entire fortune to someone like Madoff."
I feel the same way about anyone who would put money into a slot machine.
I thought I settled this Israeli/Palestinian debate yesterday. Does anyone remember the Russia/Georgia conflict in August? Why must all conflicts be discyssed? Why is there so much conflict discussion on this blog's comment site?
i wonder what percentage of CR comment threads contain a Frank Herbert reference, or a godwin, or both. im guessing its pretty high.
RockyR,
There's a line in the sand here in America(media, blogs, whatever) you can't cross when you are trying to figure stuff out.
My suspicions are aroused when namecalling and verbal aggression takes the place of honest discussion. I've seen it many times on blogs when you get into a taboo area or maybe a 'sacred lie' area. I mean I don't wanna just assume that every off-topic or controversial remark is bogus. Many are bogus. IMO. But IMO many are not.
But there are whole topics that are 'off limits' and there's a form of censorship or content editing going on and the rabid reactions to some comments are mystifying and make you wonder what's up with the over-reaction. You know with so-called 'free speech' parameters and all that we are presumably practicing.
Paul is Hitler!
Persecuted,
So many war comments because so many wars loom dangerously...even so-called civil war here in the USA is being speculated by some analysts for what reason I don't really know. Wishful thinking maybe?
Nemo,
I understood that you were joking
Like I said, no surprise that investors bought into his BS. Surprised that professionals working in a highly regulatory environment would risk their own hides on him. But I suppose regulations only work on people who want to be good.
dryfly,
re:GMAC
I think they said as much in the article.
Good night everyone.
Racism is a beggars stew, fit only for the unwashed tramps. Most arguements are about cultures and class that do not understand each other. It is for the most part not about skin colour.
Part of my heritage is Algonquian and Blackfoot. After 2 or 3 generations, foreigners are completely assimilated unless they ghettoize themselves.
The lesson is, assimilate or die. Fireant colonies do not tolerate carpenter ants. Carpenter ants become food.
"When in Rome."
"Why is there so much conflict discussion on this blog's comment site?"
it happens like clockwork on the intertubes every time the ME heats up. not much more to it, really.
But how would that have helped Pimco & Goldman Sacks?
dryfly | 12.29.08 - 11:33 pm | #
Unirealist has a point...being powerless while watching this charade unfold is stressful...wait'll a year from now.
"from the real criminal element that needs to be purged"
couldn't disagree more. insider corruption will always be with us, much like poverty. the AARP, however, is a true force of destruction and should be thought of as such.
i wonder what percentage of CR comment threads contain a Frank Herbert reference, or a godwin, or both. im guessing its pretty high.
unhappyCakeEater | 12.30.08 - 12:12 am | #
Throw in a reference to squirrel recipes and it's close to a 100%.
And ResistanceIsFeudal nailed it. Class & generational conflict becomes diversion...to the Looting & Fleecing!
A truly remarkable scam. Also a unique one, I suspect. Not that most people will believe it.
Nemo | Homepage | 12.29.08 - 11:58 pm | #
Watch "The Sting" with Paul Newman and Robert Redford. All scams are basically the same, with a few little wrinkles to keep them interesting.
<i>Madoff was trusted. He was successful partially because it was hard to put money with him; he actually turned people away. </i>
You mean it's as if he were saying," This investment is really more of a Shelbyville idea."
The only thing that's unique is the amount of money.
couldn't disagree more. insider corruption will always be with us, much like poverty
I'm not very old, but I can't recall another time where political arbitrage was the only viable investment strategy.
the AARP, however, is a true force of destruction and should be thought of as such
Care to elaborate?
Ooh bgates,
The AARP is a bunch of insurance sales people and shysters in their 40's who have no clue the way the world works.
What a charade. Marketing writ wild.
Paul is Hitler!
bgates | 12.30.08 - 12:13 am
?? I Am The Walrus
YouTube -
Dear Mr. President,
Here is the bag. It is flaming.
Love,
The Outgoing Administration.
Ross,
America is very open to inter-racial mixing for the most part IMO by now but what are the nations that still discourage inter-racial mixing? These nations may be more intolerant than the USA possibly.
OT (but then, so are many other comments on this thread), but interesting anecdotal data regarding the effect of the fall of the housing market on divorce rates & settlements.
The New York Times - Breaking News, World News & Multimedia
re: AARP - the first real battle in the war on fiscal reality wasn't fired by general Hank and Helicopter Ben - it happened five years ago or so with the passage of the donut bill, shoved through at 6 AM by tom delay and friends. the potential entitlements in that one should lead to an ultimate liability of tens of trillions of dollars. who was the muscle behind that one? more than a few TARPs hidden there.
10-4
Citi may be bigger than Madoff, and the Fed/banking/FNM/FRE CRE/RE scam may be bigger than all the scams put together in history.
but I definitely going to do my part to self-moderate these threads now that age-old debates are popping up here.
yagij | 12.29.08 - 11:37 pm | #
Brilliant - I hadn't thought of seeding it with 'hitler' and 'nazi'. Perhaps we could break godwin's law?
"but what are the nations"
almost all of them, on a cultural level. this is the only real saving grace of the USA at this point, we are significantly less bigoted than just about every other nation on the planet on a personal level, especially if you ignore the creationist fly-over states and the CSA.
You underestimate the power of affinity scams.
I worked with an Armenian woman back in 2005 who was going to put her money into Hovananian stock. Told her to be careful buying homebuilders, looks like she bought at the top.
anon @ 12:28 was me.
Just curious, but maybe the watchers of bubble-vision can help me out. All the news channel keep showing the same Madoff perp-walk where the guy is smiling and being hounded by a score of reporters. However, there is a cute asian woman wearing red gloves (mittens?) trying to fend them all off and shove them away from Madoff. Is she one of his lawyers? PR consultant? Paramour? Inquiring minds want to know!
couldn't disagree more. insider corruption will always be with us, much like poverty. the AARP, however, is a true force of destruction and should be thought of as such.
bgates | 12.30.08 - 12:19 am | #
bgates, I never claimed it could be purged, only that misdirection continually succeeds in moving the crosshairs of public outrage, and that it seems to be generational/class warfare this time as opposed to a "common enemy", a new lump of economic pseudoscience, or a host of other propaganda techniques. I don't know much about the AARP so I will take your comment at face value and (temporarily) assume you do, and am hoping you will elaborate.
Guest pooh,
You do not want to be a Jew in Russia for the next 100 years. Armenians and Georgians may fair better but not a lot.
We enforce against hate crimes. Other cultures encourage them. What can I say. It is the way the world has always worked.
Utopianism like traunched AAA credits are a failed idea. Always have been.
bgates, re: AARP. looks like you did already, I'm just slow on the comment history!
"only that misdirection continually succeeds"
the problem with the Zinn take on class and history is that it is wrong. there really was a solid conservative pro-business electorate behind Taft 100 years ago, and Nixon's silent majority was very real.
also real is the destruction the boomers, as a generation, have committed. the AARP, of course, rose to power on the backs of an older generation of them, but they make an extremely powerful combo, much like when Hitler discovered the worldview of Wagner.
Ross,
Yeah...and you didn't want to be a Christian in Russia in 1917.
"1917."
the bolshies didn't really take power until a few years later, methinks.
Motherf#cking Cerberus will make a fortune off this
Anonymous | 12.29.08 - 10:29 pm | #
A lot of people and co.s who should be in the poorhouse will make money off of this. My only hope is that GM goes BK and gets liquadated for cents on the $ and screws them all.
anon @ 12:28 was me.
Ken Cooper | Homepage | 12.30.08 - 12:31 am | #
Ken, you the man - the more I get familiar w/ your product the better I like it.
"But it does surprise me that so many FAs with heaps of assets under management could be so stupid.
Bond Girl"
may be "people" were getting "rewarded" by Madoff for channelling money towards him...
what else is new?
If you want others to invest your money for you, you first need a private investigator you can trust.
:
\tI sense lots of trouble down the road from this reckless throwing of money at problems.
Hal | 12.29.08 - 10:35 pm | #
I am less concerned about throwing money at problems, than throwing money at the well connected.
In Memory of Tanta: "We're all TARP now."
also real is the destruction the boomers, as a generation, have committed.
bgates | 12.30.08 - 12:36 am | #
I can't disagree, though as a very late Gen-X / early "Millenial" I have little claim to objectivity here. it's remarkable to me that a generation which matured and was strongly shaped under psychedelic influence seems bound and determined to amass enough wealth to effectively live in their own private universe, with little to no concern for anyone outside the the DNA of their own family tree. apology for the severely off-topic nature of this digression.
An interesting piece of data from the GD:
Peak-to-Trough Decline in Industrial Production in Various Countries
(Annual Data)
Country Decline
Unites States 46.8 %
Great Britain 16.2 %
Germany 41.8 %
France 31.3 %
Canada 42.4 %
Czechoslovakia 40.4 %
Italy 33.0 %
Belgium 30.6 %
Netherlands 37.4 %
Sweden 10.3 %
Denmark 16.5 %
Poland 46.6 %
Argentina 17.0 %
Brazil 7.0 %
Japan 8.5 %
"you first need a private investigator you can trust."
pelicano may have been a sociopathic thug, but i was impressed by the way he took it like a man. not many of those types left.
sraelâs excuse for its violence is that from time to time the Palestinian resistance organization, Hamas, fires off rockets into Israel to protest the ghetto life that Israel imposes on Gazans. The rockets are ineffectual for the most part and seldom claim Israeli casualties. However, the real purpose for the Israeli attack is to destroy Hamas.
Anonymous | 12.29.08 - 10:44 pm | #
And the down side of a Iranian funded terroist org bing destroyed, is?
Are Madoff's 'clients' who got ripped off going to get government reimbursement? A couple was just on bubblevision who lost a million and a half or so...
" apology for the severely off-topic nature of this digression."
au contraire. the boomer parallel universe is supremely on point as we chronicle the antics of hank and ben, in just about every way.
if you're looking for an example of an off-topic comment, my one above about pelicano is a good one.
and, to get really off-topic, good point about psychedelics. i honestly think we'd be better off as a society if the tens of millions hooked on anti-depressants sacked up, ate some shrooms and confronted their fears and desires for a few hours every few months. why people trust stuff from a lab as opposed to something which naturally forms on cow shit is beyond me. the denial about serotonin-reuptake-inhibitor addiction is outrageous, and a real social problem.
"And the down side of"
you mean like the kind ronnie reagan shipped money to? or the kind that cheney's company did business with on a regular basis?
Blackhalo,
Downside is depleted uranium shells kill women & children too. Isn't the GBU-39 from the US used on Gaza depleted uranium?
"from the US"
isn't most of it originally made from canadian resources?
He was successful partially because it was hard to put money with him; he actually turned people away.
Nemo | Homepage | 12.29.08 - 11:58 pm | #
Sounds like the Ian Schrager approach. Open a bar (or now, more like a hotel) and turn most people away. Suddenly everyone has to get in. Ugh.
An interesting piece of data from the GD:
RE | 12.30.08 - 12:45 am | #
Japoan equaled its decline of GD1 in a month in November.
Re: ResistanceisFeudal (Boomers)
As much as I agree with the boomers, I think we will witness them reaping what they have sown in the upcoming years.
Who are the folks losing are their money and savings in stocks, housing, work, and everything else? They were the leaders in mal-investment, and unfortunately they will be out of work sooner than everyone else and have less time to "make up" those losses. The boomers are the ones getting destroyed.
Of course who knows what the nuclear winter from their destruction will mean to the rest of us.
I don't get the connection. Did the US corral the drug lords into a ghetto like corner of Mexico? Did the US recently steal their territory with settlements? (I know the US did this over a century ago, but not very recently). How are Palestinians like drug lords? Are they selling drugs and corrupting Israeli youth?
Hal | 12.29.08 - 10:58 pm | #
Wow! I am no fan of U.S. sponsorship of Israel but that is all kinds of dumb. Recently? 6 day war was what 67? Mex/U.S. War? N.M., AZ, Cali, NV CO... Gaza, West Bank, Golan Heights combined are about the size of Orange County. Plus Israel siezed lands that their agressors attacted from. Hell they took the Suez! And gave it back!
I'm sure there are plenty of Palestinians innocent of being terroists but I find it hard to picture Israel as the villan here.
"The boomers are the ones getting destroyed."
witnessing this personally in the past few months has significantly softened any vindictive feelings.
folks under 40 still have a shot at avoiding an alpo retirement in Manteca. not so much for most older folks.
The most off topic, taboo, 'don't go there', censored, deleted, 'no-no', sacred line in the sand, so-called 'crazy ass' issue, starts with a 9 and ends with a 1. Just don't ever go there OT or not or you'll get your head bitten off and spit back at cha there open thread or not. I can name more sacred lines or private do not enter areas but that's the Big One. Carry on as if it's all OK.
"Carry on"
no need for the tin-foil hat. the XOM chart from 2000-2006 says it all.
bgates,
not sure if from canada...
yo
Since the P/I debate isn't going to die I will ask: Politically, is it actually bad for the US if Iran has nuclear weapons?
My read is that a nuclear Iran is an effective check on the "free hand" the US currently provides to Israel. Could M.A.D. be a more stable regime for the Middle East? Would American interests not be better served by this balance of power?
the denial about serotonin-reuptake-inhibitor addiction is outrageous, and a real social problem.
bgates"
the comment cannot possibly be off-topic, considering that so many people take more than coffee in an attempt to "optimize their performance", ability to concentrate etc...
I guess the few of us who are "functionimg naturally" feel like they are like "Asterix le Gaulois" (French cartoon character): who fell in the magic potion when he was an infant and no longer needed its effects
Downside is depleted uranium shells kill women & children too. Isn't the GBU-39 from the US used on Gaza depleted uranium?
the guest | 12.30.08 - 12:52 am | #
I doubt the effects of any depleted uranium used by Israel will be anywhere near the scope of the civialian casualties inficted by the U.S. on the population of Iraq.
I am not a fan of Israel generally but there are far worse regimes in the world for me to fret over before I would give a damn about what they do. They could kill all residents of the occoupied territories in gas chambers before it would come close to what is going on in Rwanda.
Sounds like the Ian Schrager approach. Open a bar (or now, more like a hotel) and turn most people away. Suddenly everyone has to get in. Ugh.
Comrade Bear (tj & the bear) | 12.30.08 - 12:53 am | #
Oh, fond memories of the Hudson Hotel...
Night All!
Who are the folks losing are their money and savings in stocks, housing, work, and everything else?
YLSP | 12.30.08 - 12:56 am |
ah, very true. and a lot of innocents among them suffer too, which is unfortunate. time is definitely against them, which in turn means many unwilling to lower their anticipated standard of living in retirement will have to indulge high-risk speculation in a probably futile attempt to regain it, which will only make things worse and even more unstable. if that also fails, taxes will become usurious... either way it is a crap sandwich for us.
My read is that a nuclear Iran is an effective check on the "free hand" the US currently provides to Israel. Could M.A.D. be a more stable regime for the Middle East? Would American interests not be better served by this balance of power?
Alex DeLarge | 12.30.08 - 1:02 am | #
Fear of a nuclear Iran is not about Israel (except in the mind of Israelis) it's about Saudia Arabia & control of the oil in the lower gulf. It always was - Israel is a red herring. Even the war in Iraq was an effort to 'stabilize' SA after 911 - it failed by every measure.
Alex,
What you have to decide in issues of war and peace if there is, or if there has ever been, or if there ever could be...a false flag(FF) attack to confuse and initiate war.
If not...if a FF is impossible and has always been impossible and always will be...you know....impossible... the debate is simple John Wayne stuff...the obvious good guys in white vs. the obvious bad guys in black or villains who wanna nuke us cause they hate us. Simple black and white discussion if all known, suspected, and unknown variables such as FF are removed from the historical analysis.
I say false flags are impossible because if I'm a historian maybe I'd wanna just keep it(history) simple.
Madoff was trusted. He was successful partially because it was hard to put money with him; he actually turned people away. So when someone got the "honor" of investing with him, the tendency was to put in as much as he would allow.
Nemo | Homepage | 12.29.08 - 11:58 pm | #
From the great movie, House of Games, by David Mamet:
It's called a confidence game. Why? Because you give me your confidence? No. Because I give you mine.
I guess the few of us who are "functionimg naturally" feel like they are like "Asterix le Gaulois" (French cartoon character): who fell in the magic potion when he was an infant and no longer needed its effects
NC | 12.30.08 - 1:04 am | #
oh dear... I resemble that remark. though I do indulge in the occasional cup or two of gourmet coffee.
I'd have to agree as to the significance and prevalence of antidepressants, especially worrisome is the generation of children upon whom these potent psychoactives have been forced at critical stages of psychological development. I guess we get to "wait and see"
Class & generational conflict becomes diversion...
the guest | 12.30.08 - 12:20 am | #
Hmm. Is it possible that some classes and generations have benifitted inordiantly in the boom times? And that other classes and generations will suffer more during a bust?
"especially worrisome is the generation of children upon whom these potent psychoactives have been forced"
yes, cripples for life. a weekend crack binge is infinitely less damaging than a multi-month SSRI prescription, especially for someone under 25 whose brain is still developing.
ah, very true. and a lot of innocents among them suffer too, which is unfortunate. time is definitely against them, which in turn means many unwilling to lower their anticipated standard of living in retirement will have to indulge high-risk speculation in a probably futile attempt to regain it, which will only make things worse and even more unstable. if that also fails, taxes will become usurious... either way it is a crap sandwich for us.
ResistanceIsFeudal | 12.30.08 - 1:08 am | #
It's no crap sandwich for you - it's 'our' problem and 'we' will live w/ it. The thing people forget is savings really don't push forward - only a claim against future production pushes forward & that claim is only as good as the people who make the deal and do the work & consume the fruit of labor at that time. You can't inventory your consumption when you are young to have when you are old... the stuff is consumed in the same time bucket as it is made/grown. If you want stuff when you are old SOMEBODY at that time has to make/grow it then and willingly share it with you or you have to do it yourself.
The real crime is we've not provided adequate 'productive capacity' going forward to make everyone - young, old & in between - as comfortable as THRY ALL expect to be. Folks here think gold will save them - good luck with that if the world is short food & energy.
I've been hearing the 'boomer bitching' here and other forums for years - all I can say is it's no different than the ignorant spewing boomers did about the generation before them... the funny thing is my father a 'greatest generation' member said it was no different when he was young - shit never changes. You can read young and old practicing 'generational warfare' going back to Roman times. Meanwhile the rock keeps circling the sun.
I agree many boomers who thought they were in fat city at retirement are going to be fried - they should have known better, me and my friends sure did. We all knew we'd die with our boots on - there wasn't going to be enough 'capacity' to carry us - we would have to carry our selves even as we fall apart. Every generation has it's blessings and curses.
Funny thing is you should hear the younger folks under the Xers now - those are my kids & their generation. They hate the Xers as much as Xers hate us as much as we hated 'the over thirties'... shit never changes.
"all I can say is it's no different than the ignorant spewing boomers did about the generation before them."
except that in 1970, the us was the world's leading creditor nation, with a strong industrial presence, almost 4/5 equity in their homes, a healthy level of income equality (especially in terms of ceo/worker ratios), relatively affordable housing compared to incomes, etc.
i agree that intergenerational conflict is eternal, but let's not obfuscate about the fact that boomers have really, really fucked up as a generation.
Funny thing is you should hear the younger folks under the Xers now - those are my kids & their generation. They hate the Xers as much as Xers hate us as much as we hated 'the over thirties'... shit never changes.
dryfly | 12.30.08 - 1:26 am | #
Yeah, but with boomers it has been 2 wolves and a 1 sheep voting on what is for dinner for a while....
except that in 1970, the us was the world's leading creditor nation, with a strong industrial presence, almost 4/5 equity in their homes, a healthy level of income equality (especially in terms of ceo/worker ratios), relatively affordable housing compared to incomes, etc.
i agree that intergenerational conflict is eternal, but let's not obfuscate about the fact that boomers have really, really fucked up as a generation.
Well, those 1970s homes were roughly 1000 sq. ft. smaller
1950 - 1000 sq. ft.
1970 - 1400 sq. ft.
2004 - 2400 sq. ft.
Hmm. Is it possible that some classes and generations have benifitted inordiantly in the boom times? And that other classes and generations will suffer more during a bust?
Blackhalo | 12.30.08 - 1:20 am | #
an annoying feature of economic cycles - those with money when it is scarce can buy stuff low, and those with stuff can sell it for money when money is plentiful. and of course a policy like capital gains tax is severely regressive, since the bottom has so little invested that gains are minimal at best, while it results in huge windfalls for the top 0.5% which we hoi polloi with nonexistent or small portfolios outside 401k/403b/IRA barely notice.
so there is a definite one-sided class bias if money supply can be controlled, or tax policies can be altered. at least as far as I can see, and I'm not an expert and barely a student of economics proper. generationally, I think we are primarily victims of the times and the currency regime we have to live under during various phases of life. and if we understand this stuff, we can rest assured that experts in the behavioral sciences do as well, and to a much higher degree of specificity. you can make a pretty convincing conspiratorial argument by putting those pieces together.
Dryfly,
My grandparents on both sides (my wife's and mine) of my family bought houses while young, stayed there for 40 years plus, paid them off and then died leaving our parents their houses.....which were quickly sold for cash....and the cash was quickly spent.....on paying off their current house you ask? No, on "investing" in their landscaping or buying a $150,000 motorhome, or put away to be spent to fund their currently underfunded retirement. When they run out the plan is to live of their reverse mortgage (good luck) and burn through every last cent before death.
Not complaining. At least we have time to plan....God knows if their folks did what my folks did....my folks would be in a world of hurt.
Just pointing out an anectodal situation which sums up the current situation.
except that in 1970, the us was the world's leading creditor nation, with a strong industrial presence, almost 4/5 equity in their homes, a healthy level of income equality (especially in terms of ceo/worker ratios), relatively affordable housing compared to incomes, etc.
bgates | 12.30.08 - 1:31 am | #
In 1970 I lived in a town in rural W Tennessee where they integrated for the first time and almost pulled the place apart - a white man shot an unarmed black teen and was acquitted on the grounds that it was self-defense. Meanwhile the Soviets & US nearly blew the whole world up - it came closer than any of us knew. And of course Love Canal [I lived near there for a while too].
I could go on and on. There was so much wrong with the world we were left with it wasn't funny. It's no different w/ you all - you're being left a mess, well welcome to the human race - it's different shit, same sandwich. Just try to kick the can down the road so my kids - the ones coming after you - maybe don't get left with so much crap. Do that and you all will be the next greatest generation.
BTW as far as affordable housing relative to incomes 70s vs now - it has ALWAYS been expensive in Cali & NYC... in the 70s they were both 4-5 times income in most places [which is where they will be again in a couple years]... the mythical 2X was only in rural towns in flyover. Guess what - in those places they are still 2X. You want to move next to me in Podunk I can guarantee you 2X or less.
Nothing much really changes - just our names and faces - the rock keeps circling.
SAVE CR!!!
While there are lots of interesting topics open for animated discussion (eg the NY Knicks, Jessica Alba, Stanley Kubrick movies, etc), they DON'T BELONG HERE! I come here (and post very infrequently) to read about finance, investing and the economy.
CR, is there any way to auto-block ridiculously OT posters? (I don't mean CR companion, I mean never actually publishing the kind of posts that insta-godwin a thread. If they never got posted, they'd never get a response and would go back to Daily Kos or Free Republic or whatever digital hellhole they crawled out of).
As a start, I'd say any post that contains the words "Hitler", "Israel" or "Palestine". Oh yeah, and for The Guest, may as well throw in "September 11", "WTC" and "squibs".
Seriously folks, it's getting as dumb as curbed.com here...
You can read young and old practicing 'generational warfare' going back to Roman times. Meanwhile the rock keeps circling the sun.
dryfly | 12.30.08 - 1:26 am | #
blackhalo,
Yes some generations could benefit by living in the boom time of the banking/credit cycles. Now if that generation is lower to middle class and they make it to the end of their lives with savings, will it be enough to pass on to their offspring.
Now we can see the babyboomers ain't gonna make it to the end before the down cycle fleecing sheared 'em. They won't pass a whole lot of accumulated wealth on to the next generation which may frustrate or anger that generation if they don't understand fleecing cycles.
Now the elite classes at the highest levels would typically be able to keep bloodline wealth going by having enough to pass on in good times or bad. True wealth may be able to survive cycles and generationally accumulate untold wealth that would maybe make say Bill Gates look like a pauper.
And imagine if you had enough wealth from generational super profits to actually be able to make or influence cycles to happen or at have enough to bet both sides and come out ahead. Whoa. Now we're getting somewhere
max, fewer OT subjects are more annoying than the annoyance that is OT subjects.
but, in the xmas spirit, here's a quote from the nyt article about Sirius which I enjoyed:
"Warren Buffett managed to get a 10 percent coupon from G.E. and Goldman Sachs, says Mr. Karmazin, speaking of the interest rate that Mr. Buffett, the Omaha investing legend, was promised for his recent investments in both companies. So if you are Sirius XM, what should the coupon be?"
the gazprom article in the nyt is also quite good:
"After five years of record prices for natural gas, Gazprom is $49.5 billion in debt. By comparison, the entire combined public and private sector debt coming due for India, China and Brazil in 2009 totals $56 billion, according to an estimate by Commerzbank."
feel free to wow us all with a riff on the above
Another spectacular selling thrust point on the EUR/USD:
01:05: 1.4100
01:32: 1.3994
Looks like it belongs at buck forty.
I'm speculating that this might be, as MrM observed, really about the JPY relative to both USD and EUR. The triangle arbitrage would translate the stable EUR/USD to stable EUR/JPY.
ust pointing out an anectodal situation which sums up the current situation.
Average Joe | Homepage | 12.30.08 - 1:44 am | #
There are idiots in every generation. My father would tell me that of all his friends - maybe 20 who were still alive when he died - only one of them besides himself had a pot to piss in when they retired. AND THESE GUYS ALL GREW UP IN THE DEPRESSION!!! IF ANYONE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER - THEY SHOULD HAVE!!!
Nothing changes much in the human condition - some grow old and wise but most just grow old. It applies to boomers and generations before and after.
I'm not trying to rock your personal prejudices and bigotries - we all got 'em and I got mine too - but folks here are mostly smart enough to see that it isn't some mass conspiracy on the part of boomers to screw Xers. It's just the same as it always was - young pushing the old out of the way AS IT SHOULD BE. My kids can hardly wait to shove you all into the ditch too.
max flatow,
I know. You wanna keep the Duke...you know pilgrim...the John Wayne thematic as the 'official narrative' or 'consensus script' so we can just enjoy the movie and shut the F up. Pilgrim.
"My kids can hardly wait to shove you all into the ditch too."
it's a question of mass. those born in the 70s will always be relatively politically powerless by sheer numbers. and we don't want to push the boomers into the ditch, we're struggling to untie the rope around our waist attached to you as you keep on digging a ditch big enough for the next 3 generations. in any case, it is the youngsters now who will be paying for the boomer wreckage more than the Xers will be. many of us had a chance to earn some income of signficance in the W years.
Max.
I didn't mention 'WTC' and 'squibs'. You did.
As I said. If this no-no OT stuff comes up even briefly and the blog police freak out. No comments or reactions of course to the OT.
Just kind of a frenzied and nasty attempt usually like Drew & Max to silence the comments which was what I was talking about in the way of strange over-reactions to certain taboo topics in our land of open inquiry.
I've seen this over-reaction on blogs or 'live TV' to certain words or numbers and it's interesting.
The planning continues, this from a Nov 4 monograph published by U.S. Army War College, Strategic Studies Institute. The following is paraphrased from pages 32 and 33.
Known Unknowns: Unconventional "Strategic Shocks" in Defense Strategy Development âunforeseen economic collapse' and âpurposeful domestic resistance' are two âpaths' to disruptive domestic shock which might then require DoD to put its broad resources at the disposal of civil authorities to contain and reverse violent threats to domestic tranquility. Under the most extreme circumstances, this might include use of military force against hostile groups inside the United States.
As in every situation throughout history, the whole ballgame rests on who defines 'purposeful', 'collapse', and 'hostile groups'.
Known Unknowns
Dryfly...I agree with your premise...the grass is greener is a tride a true falacy believed and disproved time and time again.
I am not prejudiced against individuals of each generation...people are people...I don't think an entire generation of idiots are being replaced by the next generation of geniouses.
I just see trends, influenced by systemic and institutional "truths" that tend to decide how the current generation skrews the next.
For example...the "truth" that stocks outperform...thereby creating a generation of longterm buyers no matter the cost thus bidding up the prices and destroying the very lucrative capital returns that are only possible if you underpay.
Or, the tax incentive to keep mortgage debt and instead poor money into tax deferred 401k's...which created a generation of those with stock portfolio's woefully inadequate to cover the debt they were told was stupid to pay off.
All this makes me introspective as to what I am doing now that will upset my daughter later.
I do think some mistakes are bigger than others however....I don't think your arguing that every generation suffers equally.
Hey max flatow,
If you don't think that 911 stock hit and the almost immediate post-911 'Ownership Society' administration plan to get everyone breathing into homes is NOT about the Economy, where ya been?
it's a question of mass.
bgates | 12.30.08 - 2:02 am | #
It has nothing to do with mass - it has everything to do with 'time'. We felt as powerless even in our numbers until we got to the age of 'power'. BTW - again my father said the same thing, their watershed was the Kennedy election - the passing of the baton if you will. By stagflation they were mostly destroyed just like most boomers are now - nothing changes. Make all the excuses or rationalizations you want to to justify your personal bigotries - whatever works for you.
You all will be there soon enough and for a fleeting second it will be swell - then there will be a new wave right behind you. That's not 'mass' it's biology.
Another weird comment from Dufus. See the OT controversial COMMENTS trigger very intense reactions. Let's just talk about Britney and Gen X and just forget it. The blog policing works. As you were sheeple. Worship the State in fear or shut up and enjoy your satellite TV. Hey there's somthing on the History Channel about how to exorcize Demons. Cool.
Wow I've made two new friends!
@bgates: how bout buy March TLT puts?
@The Guest: it's people like you who forced me to put everybody over 30 into acid camps...
I guess I'll go read curbed.com now...
I do think some mistakes are bigger than others however....I don't think your arguing that every generation suffers equally.
Average Joe | Homepage | 12.30.08 - 2:04 am | #
No - not every generation suffers the same - some get Auschwitz & Hiroshima others get wii. Neither US or EU born boomers or Xers are likely to suffer a whole lot - make or lose a little money, cry me a river. The cohorts after that not so sure. I think they got bigger issues and I don't see Xers falling all over themselves any more than boomers to get that right. What's Allen's line? Someday this war will end.
Alex DeLarge writes:
Since the P/I debate isn't going to die I will ask: Politically, is it actually bad for the US if Iran has nuclear weapons?
My read is that a nuclear Iran is an effective check on the "free hand" the US currently provides to Israel. Could M.A.D. be a more stable regime for the Middle East? Would American interests not be better served by this balance of power?
For Iran nuclear weapons would be totally about putting a check against the Saudi's and the US, nothing much more. Considering that, it seems to me to be a better angle to work things out politically so they don't develop nuclear weapons, since it's cheaper and leaves everyone in a better long term position. Either way despite the frothing propaganda, it's not nearly as big a worry as say, Saudi backed Islamic terror groups in (nuclear armed) Pakistan playing chicken with nuclear armed India.
Dufus,
I have a feeling 'hostile groups' will be anyone talking about the no-no subjects or topics or OT topics.
Ain't America in the New Century great?
@max flatow
Hey thanks for the 'intelligent' and 'warm & fuzzy' response. You have a nice day too, pilgrim.
See how we're all in this mess together. United we stand.
"...administration plan to get everyone breathing into homes..."
Calling it a "plan" is a generous exaggeration.
"how bout buy March TLT puts?"
just short it if you feel that way. buy TBT is you want to be a cowboy. the puts are way overpriced.
Don't worry blog police...the villains will win. There are no super heroes. And God doesn't exist as we know Him. And the villains hiding behind religion know this. Justice is an ideal. Justice like religion is just hope for the sheeple.
The sub human elite will drink your blood if they could but taking your wallet will hafta do for now.
Back to the diversions and escapism.
As you were blog police!
when will the myth that the stock market returns 9-11% over the long term die? sure, we may be in a short term fluctuation, but the last 10 years prove this to be false.
Listening to NPR. Reported on the ground in Gaza City.
Reporter asked the reporter how the city is preparing for a coming ground incursion by the Israeli Army. Reporter said that the people were anxious but were awaiting the Israelis so they could "exact their revenge" Not good. hope someone can call a TO here.
dry,
stagflation didn't crush the boomers. they were barely 30 in 1979, generally younger. nor did it come with a particularly crushing debt burden.
did germans born in the 1890s try to obfuscate their collective moral failures to later generations? just keeping it on the godwin angle...
dryfly / bgates - heroic efforts in the face of a wave of moronation.
Hold back that tide!
C
Zephyr,
Yeah the 'plan' of universal homeownership was probably a Grande diversion of incredible audacity. But it'll be a pretty good way to Bust this thing down & dirty for some vulture pickins extraordinaire.
So how will those of us living in California get paid our tax refund if we were dumb enough to actually pay more to the state than we should? I feel like I should be doing my taxes next week... with the state running out of money in February and all.
the guest,
I've enjoyed your comments.
I guess I need to explain my previous post (Known Unknowns), or rather why I posted it.
The subject of 'the people rising up', or more colloquially, 'pitchforks' has been raised on several occasions in the comments. (Granted not in this one though) I just learned tonight of the paper I linked to and it semed pertinent to the discussion of pitchforks, etc. And my main point is the defining of those terms 'purposeful', 'collapse', and 'hostile groups'.
It's easy to make the case that if there's a complete nationwide breakdown in civil order in the US, that anybody with a brain will want it ended and order restored. And indeed many of the 'paths' leading to such a situation are way beyond widespread citizen discontent with the economy. However, the paper as written ignores the fact of the illegality and unconstitutionality of using the military to enforce the laws (Posse Comitas) and it also is a blueprint for policy to do just that. I think it's more than a trial balloon. It's laying groundwork.
It's in relation to citizen disillusionment with the economic problems that I worry about who defines those loaded terms 'purposeful', 'collapse', and 'hostile groups'. Any assumptions by any one of us as to what those mean or how widespread such a disruption would need to be to trigger a military response are just that - assumptions. The actual defining of both the terms themselves and the threshold past which such a policy would be invoked is in the hands of the very same folks who are running the bailout/economic rescue. That's of great concern to me and I'd argue, should be to all of us as well.
Thanks YLSP.
One last OT thing for you two party True Believers. Obama is proving he so far is ignoring his mandate with more 'hair of the dog' that bit us. Maybe when the core Dems realize they been had, the light bulb will go off and we can have a Talk. Can we have a talk? An OT talk. When the SHTF in a couplke of months?
The Dems are like those people in the Body Snatchers who have been taken over by some veggie alien and have lost their feelings to the central Control Brain.
I was a Dem thinking it was about helping the People when I deprogrammed myself to see that DEMs and Repubs are all beholden to the emotionless central Control Brain. You know The Puppet Masters or Invasion of the Body(mind) Snatchers. They Live. Hope for Peace.
Bloomberg Headline Writers Are Morons Part XXVII:
"Australia, New Zealand Dollars Fall on US Stocks...etc"
Um, no:
CURRENCY\tVALUE\tCHANGE\t% CHANGE\tTIME
USD-JPY\t90.3750\t-0.3050\t-0.3364%\t02:37
USD-HKD\t7.7500\t-0.0006\t-0.0071%\t02:37
AUD-USD\t0.6882\t0.0030\t0.4378%\t02:38
NZD-USD\t0.5800\t0.0042\t0.7207%\t02:38
USD-SGD\t1.4424\t-0.0043\t-0.2972%\t02:38
USD-TWD\t32.8410\t-0.1185\t-0.3595%\t02:38
USD-KRW\t1259.6000\t-1.7500\t-0.1387%\t02:25
USD-PHP\t47.5000\t0.2250\t0.4759%\t02:24
USD-IDR\t11050.0000\t-200.0000\t-1.7778%\t02:27
USD-INR\t48.5250\t0.1250\t0.2583%\t02:38
USD-CNY\t6.8480\t0.0028\t0.0416%\t02:38
USD-MYR\t3.4815\t0.0048\t0.1366%\t02:36
USD-THB\t34.8050\t-0.1850\t-0.5287%\t02:30
Er gains equals falls? I don't think so.
C
" That's of great concern to me and I'd argue, should be to all of us as well."
it's an interesting item from the culture of dick, rummy and friends. they hate the bill of rights, habeus corpus, etc, and always have. nothing really new there.
folks on the left were a bit disappointed when obama eased up on the telecom spying amnesty issue. we'll see how these things play out.
never forget, 45% of the country is young-earth creationist. it only takes a few norquist-types on board to create a mandate based on those cretins.
stagflation didn't crush the boomers. they were barely 30 in 1979, generally younger. nor did it come with a particularly crushing debt burden.
bgates | 12.30.08 - 2:31 am | #
I was referring to MY FATHER'S generation - the 'Greatest Generation' - read the ef'ing post. My point was they (TGG) came of age w/ Kennedy had their day in the sun and were crushed by stagflation - same thing has happened to the boomers though slightly different cause, slightly different result... had their ride and for most it's over. It will happen to most Xers and those behind them in their time. They call that life.
BTW - those Greatest Generation guys that got hosed so bad by stagflation? They mostly did it to themselves - not unlike the mess most boomers are in now. That too appears to be a universal.
It has nothing to do with relative numbers - it has everything to do with time & 'bad' [read that as 'human'] decisions made by people at those times. And we all tend to make similar mistakes and reap very similar outcomes. Very few win. It might look like the whole cohort is mad - it's just people being people.
And as for those Germans in the 1890s... if they were adults in 1890s where were they in the 1870s? Franko-Prussian laid a lot of the ground work for later wars... if they were BORN in 1890 they FOUGHT one of those later wars & some at least were a party to the cause of that war... which leads to later wars... on and on. Shit never changes.
Blaming aggregate outcomes on 'generations' is as hollow & bigoted as blaming on race, sex, religion, whatever - it's what INDIVIDUALS do at those key times that matter and unfortunately we tend to all make very similar mistakes - different beat, same tune - and end up at a similar spot... not all but most. Boomers will be no different... Xers will follow them off the cliff and unfortunately my kids generation will follow the Xers. C'est la vie.
Think about this Dufus if I may call you that. The Patriot Act with all the disturbing Executive Orders I think some concerning executive VP immunity for example were written one after another after 2001...it was seemingly written for a worse case scenario(discovery?) that was hard to envision with the 'official version'.
But as we see now that the Crash itself from the post-911,'Ownership Society', Credit Bubble/Credit Freeze collapse may indeed cause some civil unrest, the Executive Orders concerning martial law are making more sense now in retrospect. The crackdown on 'free speech' makes more sense now.
Going to where there is no extradition makes sense. It all makes so much OFF Topic sense now!
After wading through this whole thread, I have one comment:
Please try to remember that you are mentally ill, and thinking that the rest of us want to listen to you repeat your delusional belief system over and over is a symptom of that illness.
Thank you, that is all.
there is a cute asian woman wearing red gloves (mittens?) trying to fend them all off and shove them away from Madoff. Is she one of his lawyers?
TARP consultant. It turns out that Paulson invested $30B of TARP with Madoff!
Bloomberg Headline Writers Are Morons : Part XXVIII:
This is great, partial and unsupported reporting:
Asian Stocks Advance on Earnings Optimism; BHP Rises on Oil - Bloomberg.com
So let's see what kaboomberger itself has to say...
Bloomberg.com:
World Indexes
Green in Japan, but red in China, HK, NZ.
I see.
C
PapaSloth reporting from...One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. That's crazy man. Crazy. Think it'll work in court for Madoff. We're all crazy now. Good thematic. The last resort. Little hard to swallow but what else ya got. See ya'll in the New America. Welcome home.
Little hard to swallow but what else ya got.
the guest | 12.30.08 - 3:08 am | #
I just hold up the mirror. If you gaze into it and see your own reflection, that's your malfunction.
excellent point, dry. in the shell of what was the kaiserchurch (sp?) in west berlin, there's a nice piece of art on the wall showing what look like mid 19th century prussian generals planning a campaign. a propaganda piece circa 1944 from the us ties that era together well with later events.
much as the arrogance and brutality of the prussian empire in the 1860s eventually became the 3d reich, so did the drugged-out banality of JFK eventually become Clinton and W. perhaps the boomers shouldn't be entirely blamed, they just took the stupidity of previous generations to unimagined new depths. in any case, our financial state in a few years should look a fair amount like berlin's physical state circa 1946.
My dad was in town, had a nice time enjoying the time together.
The one thing that bugs me is his staunch right-winger-ism. It's like he is a member of the "Church of FoxNews".
Channel surfing on XM and happened to come across a show talking about genetically modified food and the Monsanto corporation and how they have gotten in big with our government (rather our government has given them a ton of stuff).
Anyway, I guess there is some rule that Iraqi's cannot use non-genetically modified crops or something (not sure exactly) and have to use seed supplied by Monsanto (again, not sure exactly). My dad defended this practice by saying, "Well, they naturally modify the crops... genetic modification just works quicker."
I hadn't heard anything about this stuff before, and found the discussion quite interesting... yet I didn't know why my dad had such a visceral reaction against even the discussion.
Also on this show; there was discussion of ATF agents going to gun dealers and photocopying all their records of everyone who has bought a gun (of course this paperwork is required to be filled out). Naturally conversation leading to the discussion that the government could use this information to gun-grab. Again, my dad nicely pointed out that; "The reason they do this is to find terrorists who shouldn't have guns."
Not really a surprise to me, but still... I like America the free!
Don't worry papa. I've read sam vaknin.
These people who are in charge exhibit the symptoms. And you can always say I'm just projecting. Looking for justice is a fruitless loop to cuckoo-ville. I've learned a lot tonight just looking at the reactionary comments. Lights out.
*Course you may not be referring to my opinions.
I'm just paranoid IMO. But there was a shrink in the 60's who said if we are mentally ill, then that was the proper or a 'normal' response to our Society. It was all about Crazy assed Vietnam & agent orange back then. Remember?
it's what INDIVIDUALS do at those key times that matter and unfortunately we tend to all make very similar mistakes
dryfly | 12.30.08 - 2:59 am | #
I tend to agree with you on this observation, but it makes me wonder why we are so incapable of learning from others' mistakes. It's almost like Darwinism is voided in a social/behavorial context. Perhaps the flaw is we cannot see 'others' as equivalent to ourselves and so therefore the survivalist instinct is not called out???
Sounds like a question Pavel would have an opinion on??
I just hold up the mirror. If you gaze into it and see your own reflection, that's your malfunction.
PapaSloth | 12.30.08 - 3:10 am | #
What else would you expect to see while gazing into a mirror, except your own reflection??
PapaSloth - when my belief and desire for an active and functioning capitalist market system, with as few distortions, limits, levies and imposts as possible, within the law and smart regulation, makes me a crazy man, the so fkn be it.
The failure of the system to function as honest participants expected have fkd over prosperity and its hope for not only American citizens but millions of others too. Your solutions are... absent. Thanks. Well played.
Fk off until you have something constructive to say.
C
PaPa,
And you are an internet blogger psychologist who does...shall we say psychological blog assessments. Any comments on the comments or just put downs which again verifies my whole premise tonight again. Anyway, lights out or do you wanna do your put down thing again. It's weird.
It's almost like Darwinism is voided in a social/behavorial context
On the contrary, I've recently concluded that ego is darwinian in that it promotes a wide range of differentiated behavior, different reactions to different environments.
What you do NOT want is identical reactions. That's monoculture, which is highly susceptible to die-off from a single disease.
.
dry,
I'm not feeling it. If all generations follow the same mistake, what, then, accounts for the 4 or so generations since the GD? It would seem that the events of 20's and 00's are substantially and structurally different than the 70's or 50's. So much so that they're entirely different animals.
And you are an internet blogger psychologist who does...shall we say psychological blog assessments. Any comments on the comments or just put downs which again verifies my whole premise tonight again. Anyway, lights out or do you wanna do your put down thing again. It's weird.
the guest | 12.30.08 - 3:20 am | #
I didn't really think a further comment on my part was needed. You responded to a general comment as if it was aimed at you personally, and then self-diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic. You're obviously more familiar with your own circumstances then I am, so who am I to argue?
I haven't gotten the whiff of narcissistic personality disorder from you, though, which is a good thing. Paranoid schizophrenia is usually treatable, but it's almost impossible to treat NPD. I wish you well, sincerely.
Jeebus
If the guest and I kinda agree on PapaSloth, then it's...
DNFTT time.
C
PapaSloth - when my belief and desire for an active and functioning capitalist market system, with as few distortions, limits, levies and imposts as possible, within the law and smart regulation, makes me a crazy man, the so fkn be it.
Counterpointer | 12.30.08 - 3:19 am | #
Um, good? Go forth and prosper.
Y,
It's because GMO foods are controversial. Like food irradiation and they have to label this radiated stuff for consumers in Europe I think but here in the USA this stuff doesn't have to be labeled. It's a consumer safety health debate.
If the guest and I kinda agree on PapaSloth, then it's...
DNFTT time.
Counterpointer | 12.30.08 - 3:25 am | #
I think the right time for that response was way back when the thread got stalled out on the israeli/palastinian clusterfuck. DNFTT is a great sentiment, but knowing when to apply it helps as well.
"It's a consumer safety health debate."
much more than that, it's an IP debate, and a subtle sovereignty debate (EG farmers being sued because wind/birds moved GM crops to their land). also, perhaps, a natl security debate.
monsanto is canadian. is there a canadian variation to godwin's law?
Papa, if you know anything about projection, you may be projecting if you know what I mean.
The point was to change the subject and to kinda cool down the ot stuff though right? You know a put down cease and desist. Are you honest? Little test for ya. I mean be transparent. What specific comments irritated you?
bgates,
Interesting...hafta check it(IP debate) out.
Papa,
I didn't say 'paranoid schizo'. I said 'paranoid'. You aware of sarcasm when you see it?
is there a canadian variation to godwin's law?
Pierre Trudeau?
.
What specific comments irritated you?
the guest | 12.30.08 - 3:31 am | #
There are currently 280 comments on this thread. I'm guessing 60% of them deal with the israeli/palastinian conflict, jews deserving to get screwed by Bernie Madoff because they're all greedy bastards, Mexican drug dealers firing rockets into San Diego (OK, I admit, I enjoyed that part), how we're all born-and-bred dopes who are brainwashed to believe authority as promulgated by main-stream media, and how we're all doomed because of the bailout and/or all doomed because the bailout isn't enough. And contrails.
Please, return to your originally scheduled discussion already in progress. Nothing to see here. Move along.
I didn't say 'paranoid schizo'. I said 'paranoid'. You aware of sarcasm when you see it?
the guest | 12.30.08 - 3:34 am | #
I always get sarcasm confused with irony. Sarcasm is when you think you're joking, but irony is when you really aren't, right?
Some interesting quotes -
'Mr. LaChappelle has become one of the primary lenders around, Mr. Langlois said. "You can't go to a bank and get small loans to make ends meet, so you come to Rick."'
A loan to make ends meet? Have the meanings of the terms 'loan' and 'make ends meet' changed?
'Mr. Arthur figured no bank would lend him such a small amount for a month or two. So he pawned a dump trailer as well as other equipment and a smattering of jewelry. The money, he said, paid his work crew, insurance and other expenses.
"You have to have a Plan B," he said. "If you don't have one, you'd better find one fast."'
Plan B is a pawn shop?
'One client, he said, brought in a fur coat from Saks Fifth Avenue that retailed at $9,000. She told him she needed a loan to help buy private-school uniforms for her child.'
And what will she pawn when the kids tuition is due?
From
People Pulling Up to Pawnshops Today Are Driving Cadillacs and BMWs - WSJ.com
What really shocked me was an off hand explanation - 'Though fees vary from state to state and are set by law, the cost of a typical $75 loan is about $15 a month.'
Incredible - wouldn't it be better to just sell the stuff on e-bay or craigslist?
Papa,
NPD as sam vaknin writes isn't treatable with drugs or typical therapy but you can recover so there is hope for those afflicted. Same with sociopathy also called psychopathy. Since there seems to be an epidemic of these personality disorders in the news, let's just hope that all those who are afflicted will choose to recover.
PapaSloth - kinda why I avoided the particular political debate you mentioned. No gain possible.
As for go forward and prosper, I have, I am, and I will. My strategy is working beautifully.
C
Papa,
All you do is verbally masturbate. Symptom?
Do you ever talk the issues OT or not?
NPD as sam vaknin writes isn't treatable with drugs or typical therapy but you can recover so there is hope for those afflicted.
the guest | 12.30.08 - 3:40 am | #
I've known narcissists. The problem is, they're extremely resistant to treatment because they're incapable of acknowledging that there's anything that needs to be fixed. That's sort of the sine-qua-non of the disease.
Cerebus shareholders need to be wiped out before we flush more money down this rat hole.
I wonder if TPTB realize GM and Chrysler will be like another AIG - a neverending stream of fixes? Next will be the States, then the pension plans, then unemployment funds, . . . . . . . . . .
Do you ever talk the issues OT or not?
the guest | 12.30.08 - 3:42 am | #
There's talking about the issues, and chewing over them ad-infinitum like a toothless man chews an overcooked steak. I have yet to see one issue get resolved in this thread, and I'm not holding out a lot of hope that I'll see one soon.
Frankly, I don't even know what we're talking about any more. I simply pointed out that believing that other people want to listen to you (the generic you, not you specifically) repeat your delusional belief system over and over again was a symptom of mental illness. For some reason, you decided to take this personally. Is that an issue we should be discussing?
Not everything is reducible to individuals - one of the enduring illusions of the me generation. Remember that term? Even more amusing was the recent spate of articles talking about how the me generation was becoming the we generation - right around the time the bills are coming due. Bills 'we' can all pay together, since 'me' paying the bill is just too unfair.
rent_to_own | 12.30.08 - 3:22 am | #
I notice that the focus seems to be on the "boomers" of the USA. Wait until the generations outside the US start wondering when they get theirs.
You know it's bad when the generation of 'slackers' starts complaining! When did that meme change?
And like Papa Sloth, that's pointed at you! and you! and especially you.
If you don't think some of this OT stuff qualifies as issues for discussion and individual opinions, we can go back to the world in unconditional acceptance of it all I guess.
Or compliance. Right. Would this be your preference?
Where are you at personally on the authoritarianism scale?
"I'm guessing 60%"
actually, those are largely in the front third of the thread. it's the 5% that are solely whining about OT posts without any actual content of their own that I find the most annoying. that's where you help.
PapaSloth
More to the position, me being a currency debaser:
YouTube - Pixies - Debaser.mpg
C
Papa,
You are appointing yourself as the judge of delusions. Symptom of NPD?
"When did that meme change?"
circa 1999, the transformation from the 'reality bites/slacker/grunge' stereotype had morphed into the tech IPO greedhead stereotype.
Wow - this makes the U.S. government look so much more credit worthy to me. I feel compelled to buy more Treasury Bills so I can receive almost no interest for lending my hard earned cash to these very credit worthy folks who are very wisely propping up the automakers.
Yes, investors really are that stupid.
"really are that stupid."
perhaps there's been a mercantile logic behind support of treasury prices from asian CB perspectives. it would explain a few things.