Anyone care to explain to me why bailing these beauties out is preferable to a Chapter 11 reorganization that might conceivably put someone competent in charge of their operations?
The problem with Pareto is that it assumes ceterus paribus. Which doesn't exist in the real world. Further, when gov'ts use force to try and create it it just makes matters worse. How can a gov't know that stealing something from someone and giving it to another increases utility?
They can't. There is no such thing as a util. People value things differently.
If I was dehydrated in the desert and had a brick of glod, and would never make it to a water hole, and someone drove up and said I'll trade you a ride to water for your glod...I'd take it. That can't be modeled at all. Nor can some Pareto efficiency exist.
Pareto was another engineer, along with Walrus, who destroyed economics for generations.
When we get back to logical economics is yet to be seen, but this crap does nothing.
If the go Chapter 11, the Fed takes over the Pensions and wipes out the pension fund. A
bailout offers the slim hope of them turning it
around and paying those obligations.
Democrats, dont put away the celebratory booze just yet. One of the worlds greatest opportunities for schadenfreude is about to present itself, as an exiting army of Republican foot soldiers tries to sell its Washington-area homes in the worst housing bust since the Great Depression.
Think about it: Many of todays exiting Republican-appointed officials in Washington arrived near the height of the housing bubble, particularly those who came after George W. Bush was re-elected in 2004. Then, it must have seemed as if Republicans had a permanent stranglehold on Washington, and thus it must have also seemed like the appropriate time for conservative migrants to the capital to settle down and buy a home.
Many of these Republican officials nested in northern Virginia, a corner of what had long been a reliable red state. And what a time to buy in northern Virginia it was.
The average housing price in the greater northern Virginia area in September declined 32.11 percent from the previous year, according to the Northern Virginia Association of Realtors.
And this is the market that many Republican officials, with few Washington job prospects during an Obama presidency, will have to sell in.
Anyone care to explain to me why bailing these beauties out is preferable to a Chapter 11 reorganization that might conceivably put someone competent in charge of their operations?
My opinion is that a BK scares off customers and poisons the brand(s). (People disagree on this). But I am firmly opposed to leaving the current jokers in charge, which seems to be the case as of now. See this for why: http://www.freep.com/article/20081103/MULTI/81102057/1014/BUSINESS01
Anyone care to explain to me why bailing these beauties out is preferable to a Chapter 11 reorganization that might conceivably put someone competent in charge of their operations?
Actually, I can give you 700 billion reasons (and more) why bailing them out is not a good idea.
.... because restructuring is really hard work and unpleasant. I'd much prefer someone just gave me $50-100 billion so I can avoid that. GM will still need to restructure when that runs out, but I'll be that much closer to retirement, and anyway maybe the next guy in this job will get another $50 billion for GM.
What a way to run an economy. And people actually believe this is "economic management", not just a game of moving money from people you don't like so much to people you like more.
Interesting how some folks here scratch their heads when the market behaves irrationally, yet are totally sure the market is making a rational statement to Obama's election.
(by the way, shouldn't they update spell checkers to accept 'Obama?')
aClem writes:
"Interesting how some folks here scratch their heads when the market behaves irrationally, yet are totally sure the market is making a rational statement to Obama's election."
Who intelligently believes market selloff was anything more than sobering up in face of reality after recent runup? War's over.
. . .the next 100 days could represent the most crucial time . . . .
Talk about covering your bets. 75 days to work on the crowd setting unprecedented records for handouts followed by 25 more to plead for a bone from the next group.
"You ain't got no problem, Rick. I'm on the motherfucker. Go back in there and chill them niggers out and wait for the Wolf, who should be coming directly"
And this is the market that many Republican officials, with few Washington job prospects during an Obama presidency, will have to sell in...
On the other hand, those houses will still be unsold in 2010 when the Democrats lose 300 seats in Congress in the midst of the economic aftermath of a nuclear war between Israel and Iran. $100 gallon gasoline and daily suicide bombings in U.S. cities might tarnish the Messiah's halo.
can't think of a smart-ass thing to say right now. Feeling worried about all my old high school friends, with kids and house payments.
I'm with you. Bail out the white collar elites and their lackeys but, leave millions of working Americans to Bush's ownership society and leave them on their ow
Anyone care to explain to me why bailing these beauties out is preferable to a Chapter 11 reorganization that might conceivably put someone competent in charge of their operations?
In a chapter 11 reorganization, the current management generally stays in as debtor-in-possession. It's rare that the US Trustee will allow/appoint an outside team because the extra cost (those teams are expensive) takes from the creditors.
Our parents and grandparents must have been a much hardier generation than we are. They survived the Great Satan Roosevelt and lived to see the paradise of Nixon, Reagan, Bush and Bush. Ah, Paradise Lost!
My take: Friday they announce a pre-packaged BK (what an odd press stmt). Gives them time to shed some obligations, for the new admin. to assume their roles and for suiters to put up or shut up.
The Unions will now feel the pain of those benefits and grandfathered items as they go all away in BK...
I think we are having crisis exhaustion. A 500 point drop and it is just a ho hum day. With the kind of economic news we are going to see in the next ninety days, watch out below.
bagholder energyecon writes:
What is the amount of outstanding CDS on GM debt?
bagholder energyecon | Homepage | 11.05.08 - 9:58 pm | #
Last I read it was $1 Trillion.
Once again to all those who want GM to go Chap 11 and are basing their opinion on pre 2005 BK law, BAPCA didn't just screw the middle class, it screws any company with derivatives or swaps in their debt exempting those from the BK courts control. Creditors will swoop in and take ALL the family jewels and the BK court can't stop them.
Our parents and grandparents must have been a much hardier generation than we are.
If you think about it, the early settlers came here without factory jobs or 401k's or pensions, and somehow a good number of them survived (considering). No HMOs, no grocery stores, no infrastracture.
I'm wondering how much stuff we don't even know about that the current admin has been doing to prop everything up through the election - now they have even less reason than ever to give a crap about anything.
I'm curious. Am I the only one here that realizes that we're in a state of debt saturation and each action to strengthen the current weak link simply forces failure at the next weakest link?
I mean, come on.
This has been going on for almost two years now. Sub-prime, and then Alt-A, the original "credit crisis", etc, etc.
Not even the doomsters talk about it.
What the hell?
Is the cultural delusion that strong?
Am I the only one here that realizes that we're in a state of debt saturation and each action to strengthen the current weak link simply forces failure at the next weakest link?
Well I'm glad you want to do that. You pay for it voluntarily. I'll stay out cuz I don't give a frick.
You wanna be a charity, go for it. But if you argue the gov't ought to put a gun to my head and rob me for your stoopidity...you gat another thing coming.
The ongoing complicity between UAW and GM management to keep payrolls bloated to blackmail levels HAS to stop. Unfortunately there is nothing I've seen in Obama's campaign that promises anything other than more of the same handout nonsense.
You do realize nationalized healthcare is coming, right?
Please get the terms right.
We will never have nationalized health care (e.g. England) in this country. In this system, the health care is actually provided by the government. Every single piece of the puzzle (hospitals, physicians, medical schools) is against it.
Universal (e.g. Canada) maybe. Health care is paid for by the government.
Every other country does "charity" except the US--and that puts GM at a disadvantage. You know that but enjoy being smarmy because it sounds kewl--or cruel. Whatever, it's not our decision--but the consequences will affect innocents--back to your definition of charity. It's a values question--each person has their own--mine differs from yours.
and all the other down days were based on premonitions? because two things happen in sequence does not prove cause and effect. And my point was that if it's irrational when Obama was not president elect, why is it rational when he is? My perverted enthusiasm for logic and reason.
You do realize nationalized healthcare is coming, right?
If you're over 65, you already have it - and my observation is 90% of patients are there. relax, it ain't so bad - the bills get written off about 80%, but the docs wear your ass out passing you around for billing.
jus sayin' - I really liked the market action today. Slow constant bleed down right into the close, with nice followthru AH. Lots of econ data thru Friday.
There can't be a lot of buyers emerging at these levels given the steady stream of grim news. CSCO was scary since Chambers is normally very upbeat. 760 is a stones throw from here.
ational healthcare?? Only if the gov gives free national chickens and national potatoes to pay the bill.
Unions get GM. Great idea. Let those dumb s*&ts figure out how to balance the checkbooks. Big dose of reality right there, and a brickwall understanding that this isn't 1920. Hell, this ain't the 1970's.
No, not premonitions aClem. EVERYONE knows the other down days occurred under democrat the controlled congress. Jees man, let's stick to the facts and not try to be clever by half employing logic and reason.
We are all a bit testy tonight, probably because we didn't get to blow off steam last night. This thread music should put your vibes back a bit: YouTube -
The problem is that policymakers are putting the cart before the horse. They should work on cutting costs FIRST (e.g. patent reform, drug safety, etc) before putting a floor under an asset-inflated industry.
The personal element notwithstanding, universal health care at this moment is the equivalent of the various "universal" housing initiatives.
Ambac Financial Group Inc.'s bond insurance rating was cut four levels by Moody's Investors Service, forcing the company to post collateral and causing a cash shortfall of about $3 billion at its investment unit.
The insurance financial strength rating was cut to Baa1 from Aa3 to reflect Ambac's diminished business and financial profile,'' New York-based Moody's said in a statement today. The outlook for the ratings isdeveloping,'' Moody's said.
New York City, reeling from financial turmoil on Wall Street, must roll back a property tax cut and reduce its workforce by 3,000 to help shrink a $4 billion budget gap over the next 18 months, Mayor Michael Bloomberg said.
The job cuts, including the firing of 500 workers, and a 7 percent property tax increase starting in January, were included in a budget modification plan Bloomberg presented in City Hall today. They represent part of an effort to save $1.5 billion to offset projected tax revenue declines. The city faces $3.1 billion less in revenue in the year starting July 1 than last year, the mayor said.
``There is no magic answer,'' Bloomberg, 66, said. Even with the savings and tax rollback, the mayor projected a $1.3 billion budget gap for fiscal 2010 beginning July 1.
I may be just a hick, but doesn't universal health care mean more demand in relation to supply ? sporkfed
Nothing wrong with the logic, but every other developed country somehow provides Universal Health Care at between half and two thirds the cost per capita of US healthcare. Might be time to quit chanting "We're Number One" and go figure out how they do it.
Sporkfef and Corey - that's a bit simplistic and short term way to think about the problem.
You see, when 45-50 million dont have insurance, it creates its own problems. One, regular health maintenance is not taken care of, meaning, a greater number of more serious and costly problems later in life. Second, when any remotely serious issue comes up, it's straight to the emergency room. Add to this the fact that about 80% of all medical spending is created by about 10% of the patient population.
Look, you dont solve health care right away. You set up a system that in the short run is going to be more costly, so that you can get to a system down the road that is much more efficient.
Nothing wrong with the logic, but every other developed country somehow provides Universal Health Care at between half and two thirds the cost per capita of US healthcare. Might be time to quit chanting "We're Number One" and go figure out how they do it.
Since I've been self employed (2 decades), I've used several HMOs. I've also lived abroad in several countries and used public healthcare in Germany, Switzerland, Greece and the U.K. I choose the European version every time over an U.S. HMO. I've gotten much more professional care and longer attention and that's a fact.
YRC Worldwide Inc. and Con-way Inc., the biggest U.S. trucking companies by sales, probably will say earnings fell in the third quarter because of a drop in shipments.
As global credit markets seized up, freight demand dwindled heading into the industry's peak season before the Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays, the American Trucking Associations says. Con-way will report a smaller profit today while YRC likely will post a loss tomorrow, according to analysts' estimates.
``In many ways conditions are as bleak as they've ever been,'' said Donald Broughton, an Avondale Partners LLC analyst based in Creve Coeur, Missouri.
I guess this is also freaking people out for some reason, even though it's old news:
On October 24, 2008, QRCP entered an agreement with its lender to amend its $33.5 million term loan with a maturity of July 11, 2010. Among other terms of the amendment, the lender agreed to waive any potential non-compliance in prior periods that was a direct or indirect consequence of the questionable transfer of approximately $10 million of funds from the Quest entities to an entity controlled by QRCP's former chief executive officer
"Look, you dont solve health care right away. You set up a system that in the short run is going to be more costly, so that you can get to a system down the road that is much more efficient."
Hey, great idea! That sounds just as logical as "we're losing on each unit, but will make it up on volumne."
If the reimbursements are reduced, many men and women will not go to med school any more. It is too grueling.
The problem is that if you aren't a health care insider or "medical" in some way, you don't even know if the care that you are getting is adequate and/or appropriate.
Circuit City waiting for bailout: To date, the company has been unable to collect an income tax refund of approximately $80 million that the company believes it is owed from the federal government. Soooo, as a result of the company's ongoing asset productivity assessment and working capital situation, the company has determined to take the
following initial actions with respect to its domestic segment real estate
portfolio and strategy:
freight demand dwindled heading into the industry's peak season before the Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays, the American Trucking Associations says.
Link to the story on the Credit Card Bond failure commented on earlier.
Credit Card Bond Sales at Zero, First Time Since 1993 (Update1)
By Sarah Mulholland
Nov. 5 (Bloomberg) -- Credit card companies were shut out of the market for bonds backed by customer payments in October for the first time in more than 15 years, as investors shunned the debt amid the global credit freeze.
Must also be a big slowdown in resort bookings for XMAS, which is being priced into a few stocks, like DiamondRock:
Lodging real estate investment trust Host Hotels & Resorts reported that its third-quarter profit plummeted 44 percent to $54 million from a year ago. Income from continuing operations declined by 56 percent to $41 million.
Geoff writes:
You see, when 45-50 million dont have insurance
Where'd you get this number? Never mind. There's no reliable cite for it.
And anyway, "don't have insurance" is not the same thing as "don't have access to medical care." Some people make a rational economic choice to not purchase health insurance. When I was in my 20s I didn't buy health insurance and simply paid for my medical expenses out of pocket. I was in generally good health, physically fit, ate reasonably, and did not smoke. It was a reasonable "gamble" for me to forego insurance and pay out of pocket for treatment when I contracted pneumonia or Hep A. When I hit my early 30s, I bought a health insurance policy (Kaiser) and have had it ever since. It's quite reasonably priced ($296/month) and provides very good quality of service.
Quality health care and affordable health insurance are widely available for those that wish to purchase it. If you are a 41 year old man and it is not important enough to you to pay $296/month for health care, then why should it be important enough to make your neighbors pay for it? And if you cannot afford $296/month, then I submit that you've made some bad choices in your life. Regrettable, but hardly my responsibility. How many people have cable TV ($100/mo) and cell phones and other luxuries, but claim they cannot afford health care?
Let's stop pretending that socialized medicine is about "efficiency" or "fairness". It merely embodies the hope of every citizen that he will be able to stick his neighbor with his medical bills.
I understand other countries have universal health care. they also have the luxury of the US providing
for their security. If we stop defending the world could the afford to pay for it along proving universal coverage ?
One thing for certain, taking care of all those who can't afford health insurance, flies in the face of Darwinism. With the new political landscape, we don't need to start a pissing contest with the Darwinians.
Ship the sick to Canada and offer some carbon offset credits for good measure.
You know, I have been trying to explain that to the duped socialists forever. It's pretty simple yet they don't get it. Makes me wonder what else they don't get. You can fool some of the people some of the time and others all the time.
"Look, you don't solve health care right away. You set up a system that in the short run is going to be more costly, so that you can get to a system down the road that is much more efficient.
Geoff"
Agree. It would take a short time to get un/under-insured people into the system and deal with their chronic issues that are going to cost everyone big bucks down the road when they are in medicare. It will take years to begin to change the paradigm that the high cost of medical school/residency is payed off in a few years of high salary. One way out of the trap is to make medical school/residency free with a commitment to work, in your chosen field, for x years before setting up in private practice. Once your commitment is repaid, the well off pay out of pocket for superior care from an experienced Doc with no waiting time. You would loose a lot of intelligent people to other professions, as the big bucks won't be there immediately, but the top students in every class go into dermatology and ophthalmology anyway as the hours and pay are good, and how many of these sub-specialty people do we need compared to cardiologists, oncologists, endocrinologists?
When you start to think of connections here, think DiamondRock and Bank Of America, i.e, BAC depends on cash flow from tourists that spend cash on vacations; no tourists, no cash flow, div is cut and BAC revenues decline and they cut divs.. so sorry!
Every other nation is doing stupidity...so we should too.
You know in Canada, going to the Dr. for a hangover absolutely excuses you from being late for work?
Change the STOOPID FDR imposed price controls of the 30's where employer financed tax free insurance came into being, because it was a benefit that big companies could offer above FDR's wage controls, and give it to the individual and viola problem solved.
Knowing the root of the problem provides it's solution.
Unlike accidents, health CANNOT be insured. Everyone gets sick. Not everyone pilots a ship filled with coal into an iceberg.
I understand other countries have universal health care. they also have the luxury of the US providing
for their security.
Give me a break. I think we covered that recently about Japan and I can assure you that most countries are not looking for "U.S. security". The U.S. has 700 bases around the world for rather selfish reasons and they fall in line with the term "imperial".
[Might be time to quit chanting "We're Number One" and go figure out how they do it.
vtcodger]
DING! That's the dirty little secret.
My dad lives in Canada. He needed a replacement hip but after 3 years of waiting and almost wheelchair bound he came to the USA and got it done in 1 week.
He also needed an MRI - took 3 months.
He got sick and his Dr told him to take baby aspirin. When he came to visit me I took him in to a Dr who gave a shit (at ~ $10/visit the quality of care is rather limited) and after a rash of tests we discovered he had cancer.
Get the picture. Hint - Don't pay a lot of attention to hustlers like M Moore. He's got an agenda and makes $$$$$ duping the naive.
"Look, you dont solve health care right away. You set up a system that in the short run is going to be more costly, so that you can get to a system down the road that is much more efficient..."
OMG, a little pee just squirted.
Would the gubmint be part of this new efficient system - like the role they provide thru Medicare, Fannie Mae, and DOE? Just curious.
And Corey - your semi correct on parts of your analysis. Yes, insurance is available for people to purchase. And yes, you chose not to when you were healthy, and later, chose to purchase as your risk profile went up. However, you'd have thought twice about that had something awful befallen you when you were healthy..you know, something catastrophic and sudden.
But perhaps you should think about the case for others who make much less a year..say, minimum wage with no health bennies. When you make $1500 a month, $250 a month is 1/6 of your monthly nut. Do you trade food for health insurance?
PSgirl writes:
I keep hearing that health care for a family of 4 is 12K per year and I think WTF are they talking about.
The other day I had a conversation with a young waitress at a diner. She was complaining that health insurance was "so expensive". I asked her if she had ever actually priced a policy. She was evasive, but eventually admitted that she had not, and that she was simply going by what she heard from her friends. When I told her that reasonable medical coverage for her would be around $100/month she was dumbfounded.
Health insurance is affordable and available to those who choose to purchase it.
Yeah, and with 100 billion in CDS contracts, I would say so.
GM and Ford are going down within the next year, unless O-shit! slaps large tariffs on imported vehicles. Let's see how pro-Detroit he is. I'm afraid that he's more pro-Detroit for the Muslims there rather than the auto workers.
I keep hearing that health care for a family of 4 is 12K per year and I think WTF are they talking about.
PSgirl | 11.05.08 - 11:14 pm | #
We pay Kaiser $988 a month, no dental for our family of 4. $11,856.
Dental last year was $1350 out of pocket, cleanings, 2 xrays and 2 fillings.
My 9 yo is going to need braces due to an overbite. Budgeting $2500 initial and $1000 for maintenance.
My wife and I net $75,000 a year. Our health care expenses take a hefty bite of our balance sheet.
Tax returns have helped but with the inevitable local/state/federal tax increases coming I'm not counting on those returns as much.
Healthcare is an issue in this country and yearly double digit cost increases have to be addressed. I don't have an answer but I do recognize the problem.
"But perhaps you should think about the case for others who make much less a year..say, minimum wage with no health bennies. When you make $1500 a month, $250 a month is 1/6 of your monthly nut. Do you trade food for health insurance?"
Aw, me heart bleeds. If you're old enough to NEED health care and still here...Why the F should I care. I was there in my late teens and early 20's. Moved on. You're still there after that...you're a drain. Liberals are big on Darwin. Well there ya go.
No really, I'm not kidding. What's going on with the TARP? I thought there was going to be some website we could look at to see where the money was going.
[Maybe you're not a family of 4 because that's WTF it is.
sportsfan ]
For that $12k/yr you probably have pretty damn good coverage with very low deductibles. That $12k/yr is what it'll cost the government only you'll get the coverage of a $100/mo plan.
On the Lehman link I posted, they are trying to concel the information on the $144 million special dividend...they have filed a C&D to stop this information from getting out...scum bags!
WHat the hell is wrong with all you naive misguided people here ? I thought this site had skeptics on board ?
You are talking about the USG. The most inefficient loser operation that makes GM look like a well oiled machine. Holy crap. Think about it for God sakes.
zoom writes:
I keep hearing that health care for a family of 4 is 12K per year and I think WTF are they talking about.
PSgirl | 11.05.08 - 11:14 pm | #
We pay Kaiser $988 a month, no dental for our family of 4. $11,856.
Interesting. Here in Oregon/Washington a Kaiser policy for a family of 4 is $536/mo (oldest in the 40-45 range). I wonder why the huge difference. You wouldn't happen to be in.....California?
Medical costs should not be reduced by lowering doctor's wages. They should be reduced by lowering his costs, namely malpractice insurance. In fear of being sued, he orders more expensive tests than are necessary, to cover himself. Also, the for profit HMO model rewards management by restricting care. In addition, patent protection for medicines is longer than is necessary to recover R/D costs, often being renewed and extended for minor changes to the formula. All these groups lobby heavily, all costs of which get passed on to the consumer. Coffee, anyone?
Russia's MICEX exchange halted trade for one hour after its benchmark index surged 9.9 percent and all-share index rose 12 percent, following two days of holidays in Russia.
Russia and Kazakhstan's five-year credit default swaps (CDS), used to insure against restructuring or default of debt, have narrowed below 500 basis points from levels above the key 1,000 mark, indicating distressed debt levels, a few weeks ago.
Ukraine's CDS are quoted at 1,550-1,750 bps, a trader from a European bank said, compared with recent levels near 3,000 bps
"You are talking about the USG. The most inefficient loser operation that makes GM look like a well oiled machine. Holy crap. Think about it for God sakes."
Well I was getting ready to vent my spleen int that direction, but yu beat me to it.
Clearly some people on this board are only in touch with medical care talking points, and havent spent much time figuring out how the system works, and why it is broken.
New Federal Loan Program announced by the Treasury Department.
A new Federally sponsored loan program is being announced today to help
spur consumer spending. The new loan program will be called the Federal
Consumer Lending Program (FECOLP). These loans will be available for
large ticket consumer items; such as wide-screen TV's and Automobiles.
Interest rates will be fixed every year by the Treasure Department, with
an initial rate of 1.5%. The new loan program calls for interest payments
to be deferred. On selected items, initially SUVs, principle payments
can also be deferred for up to 10 years. This is expected to jump-start
the ailing US automobile industry.
FECOLP authorizes banks and other lending institutions to sell the loans
directly to consumers. The loans are then immediately purchased by
Fecol-Mae a new Government Sponsored Enterprise (GSE) - which packages
the loans into government guaranteed AAA rated securities, selling them on
the open market. The Treasury Department expects FECOLP Loans - known as
Fecal Loans by the Consumer Lending Industry - will help spur economic
growth, create jobs, and end the economic malaise the country is currently
experiencing.
Part of the Fecal Authorization Act also provides for State Fecal
Guarantee Agencies which modeled on the widely successful Student
Lending Guarantee Agencies - would help guarantee the Fecal Loan's AAA
bond rating.
"the end was the last final in your senior year of college and you took the 3 month trip to Santorini...."
Flew standby to Athens with my roommate for $129. Got to Santorini and couldn't afford a hotel. So we hooked up up with two beautiful Swedish blondes and shared a barn. (true story)
OT, but good for you: "The recent financial crisis could negatively affect our business, results of operations, and financial condition," Intel wrote in its 10Q filing, published by the SEC on Friday.
Intel spells out how the credit crunch in particular could affect the company: "There could be a number of follow-on effects from the credit crisis on Intel's business, including insolvency of key suppliers resulting in product delays; inability of customers to obtain credit to finance purchases of our products and/or customer insolvencies; counterparty failures negatively impacting our treasury operations; increased expense or inability to obtain short-term financing of Intel's operations from the issuance of commercial paper; and increased impairments from the inability of investee companies to obtain financing."
Yeah, cuz illegal aliens from 3rd world central and south american countries, with there ability to squirt out anchor babies is a real threat in Switzerland.
By the by, Switzerland banks are about to T-Up from Eastern European loans.
Misean: Yeah, cuz illegal aliens from 3rd world central and south american countries, with there ability to squirt out anchor babies is a real threat in Switzerland.
"Let's stop pretending that socialized medicine is about "efficiency" or "fairness". It merely embodies the hope of every citizen that he will be able to stick his neighbor with his medical bills.
Corey"
Wrong. You have to insure everyone. Like a well balanced financial portfolio, somethings go up, other go down, but, eventually everyone:
1) Gets sick.
2) Dies.
It all balances out.
The poor care, long wait times, in some systems are just a function of that system. Just like "Hope is not a plan", I believe that "Anecdote is not data", look at Germany. Some free market principals are needed to direct the balance of care. When the older guy needs a hip replacement, and can afford the private doc, he gets it done. When the other guy needs one and can't afford it, he waits.
How did we become a nation so divided by income level? I made better choices and make more so screw you if you can't cover the basics. Your to blame for my high taxes and the credit crisis. Immigrants took my job and drive up costs. I could go all day. But I won't.
I see a future where we can come together and help each other survive or we start killing each other. I'll be helping my neighbors. I'll expect them to help themselves and me but my requirements of my 72 year old neighbor will be minimal. I'll share my food with her.I'll help protect her property. Know what she's done for me? Smiled, wished me a good day. Told me my kids were cute. She's my neighbor. Darwin be damned.
Corey, psgirl, Dr dd. Misean is dope, dk.
See the humanity of your neighbors and don't assume stereotypes when you look at someone. I'm clicking off and will allow myself the last word here.
Somehow, there seem to be folks here who think that it makes sense for people not to see doctors regularly, so that they can grow old and be sicker than they otherwise would, and that, when they do finally seek medical care that they cant afford, that the costs will somehow magically disappear. You think you dont want to pay to keep these people well....um, exactly who do you think pays for them when they aren't well? Trust me, they will get sick. We all do. But those who dont catch illnesses early end up much sicker, and end up costing much much more to the system. That is what I mean by efficiency.
Not treating people through their life means a higher fully discounted lifetime cost of medical care. That is not an efficient outcome. Now the next question is, why have you decided to make this tradeoff? If you feel that people dont have the right to healthcare, why do we let them in the system later when they are sick? Why not just say cant pay, cant have care, right? But we dont do that, we all pay anyway.
So why does that make sense? It can only make sense if you think that somehow that poor decisions is worthwhile because of a question of fairness, as in, who pays for that expensive care. So Im asking, who do you think pays for it?
WTF, yesterday it was 200k was the consensus, today it's 250-300k jobs lost? Is this just a way for them to spin a 240k job loss as better than expected when it would be worse than expected yesterday?
Or are these people just making it up as they go.
Seasonal holiday hiring is dead here. Not a one is actively recruiting for new positions. The waitress today said that she is working 9 shifts a week just to make end meet when a year ago 3 shifts made decent money.
I expect the full force of the U3 and U6 to show up no later than January as not only little to no seasonal help gets hired, but further reductions in regular staffing show up. This, of course, will only add to the downward spiral. We will be lucky to be on the upswing by early 2010.
"Health insurance is affordable and available to those who choose to purchase it.
Corey"
Sorry to disagree again but it is not available to everyone.
I had BCBS COBRA coverage for 18 months, reapplied for coverage when it ran out and was turned down twice for "chronic condition". I am very healthy, over 40 and had a back spasm ER visit once in those 18 months.
Kaiser in the PNW is the biggest regional provider. Their docs are payed a lower salary to work a set number of hours while their malpractice, family health care and pension are well compensated. It's a model that works for a lot of docs and patients, and its profitable for the system. My Dad had it in lew of Medicare and it served him very well.
Brontide: We will be lucky to be on the upswing by early 2010.
I will put this in the hope chest along with CR waiting to see the Fed start to shrink its balance sheet. Stuff I really hope comes true, but don't anticipate celebrating.
Corey
"I am: 41-year old man. Oregon/Washington. Kasier "gold" plan"
Well, HELL! THAT explains it! With 9 months of gray skies and rain, NOBODY gets old...they all blow their brains out from depression....no need for "late life med. care"....G.
"Not treating people through their life means a higher fully discounted lifetime cost of medical care. That is not an efficient outcome. Now the next question is, why have you decided to make this tradeoff? If you feel that people dont have the right to healthcare, why do we let them in the system later when they are sick? Why not just say cant pay, cant have care, right? But we dont do that, we all pay anyway."
Pay anyway...that is wrong. F them. I don't really care. Die MF die I say.
"Sorry to disagree again but it is not available to everyone.
I had BCBS COBRA coverage for 18 months, reapplied for coverage when it ran out and was turned down twice for "chronic condition". I am very healthy, over 40 and had a back spasm ER visit once in those 18 months.
Kaiser in the PNW is the biggest regional provider. Their docs are payed a lower salary to work a set number of hours while their malpractice, family health care and pension are well compensated. It's a model that works for a lot of docs and patients, and its profitable for the system. My Dad had it in lew of Medicare and it served him very well."
I was on Blue Cross HMO in Northern California until every decent Gastro-Enterologist started refusing HMO. I tried a couple of HMO Gastro Specialist and was blown away by how bad their care was.
So I switched over to a PPO. It was the only way I could find a decent Gastro Specialist. $1400/month for coverage. 15% out of pocket for each procedure.
Colonoscopy costs me $350 out of pocket each year.
Blood test $30 out of pocket every 90 days.
Followup visit $40 out of pocket every 90 days.
Generic medication $10/mos.
I get great care for my condition but I have NO idea how lower to middle class wage earners would be able to afford care for any ongoing condition.
I agree that the system we have in the U.S. is not very efficient from a financial standpoint and, frankly, it probably isn't very efficient from a medical standpoint either. I don't know enough to evaluate it.
But I can surmise that the new administration is not going to make a paradigm shift in healthcare reform one of its highest priorities. There are just too many more immediate problems that will need attention.
I think it's myopic of you to claim health insurance is cheap. It's only cheap until it's not and that could happen at a moments notice.
Until we get it through our heads that for profit insurance is the wrong model we can't fix the problems that businesses and Americans face. When an insurance company can deny as "not medically necessary" childbirth ( while sorted out within a few months, their first response was denial of coverage ) we know there is a serious problem.
sportsfan, totally agree. We blew that money. The bankers remaining rich was way more important than having a healthier populus. We didnt have money for sooooo many things, until we needed to find that money for something we should have never needed it for. It's a pretty disgusting situation.
I have but not too many options with reasonable coverage once you are in your fifties. It was easy before.
RE | Homepage | 11.05.08 - 11:34 pm | #
Yup - been there.
Also as for PSGirl's experience - try CHANGING policies once diagnosed... not always easy or even possible.
Now some states force insurer's to cover PECs some don't. In Minnie where I live we now force companies to cover PECs and at a 'reasonable' rate - meaning for somebody like you to get a $400/month rate, it would have to be HIGHLY subsidized considering the risk factor.
In the past Minnie didn't force insurers to cover PECs and they put a rider on about half my wife's body and still charged us a ton (about $8K/yr family of four $1000 each deductible circa 1990). Ouch.
My guess is anyone paying $400/month with a diagnosis of cancer isn't being fully 'risk rated'. I don't care what the prognosis is either - enough weird things happen w/ cancer and they are all real expensive that it would have to subsidized somehow by somebody. Insurers don't care about your outcome just the 'cost outcome'.
"And you arrogantly assume I have health insurance...Nice.
Knurd!
Nostrovia,"
Nice, no insurance. How do you plan to pay for that out of the blue accident? Or out of the blue emergency room visit.
Oh yeah let me guess you'll be chomping at the bit eager to pay that 10k/day charge just for the hospital room right?
You won't be whining for a handout, or filing BK right? You'll be moral enough to setup a 30 year payment plan right? And pay every single penny so that tax-payers don't pick up the bill?
I swear that I'm not sure you understand even half of my comments here.
I'm not assuming you have health insurance, much less doing so in an arrogant manner.
I was making fun of your 'put a gun to my head to pay for medical care for others' comment following my statement that I don't think the new administration will get there for a few years.
Hence, your safe for a few years if the government isn't putting a gun to your head to make you pay for other people.
Now don't accuse me of ridiculing you in this comment.
You're snarky enough, but you don't know me...nor how I'm financed. Please save your "I'm as poor as dirt" finances to yourself. I'll be fine dude. You, on the other hand might look into the concept of saving.
PSgirl writes:
Uffish, that is a lovely utopian thought, but no.
I take excellent care of myself by eating well and doing vigorous exercise.
-I ran 7 marathons in the past 5 years.
There is no way I should have to pay for someone who abuses their body.
-Agree, but eventually we all wear out, get sick and die.
I will be happy to pay taxes though to help people who are TRULY down on their luck.
-You, through your premiums or lower wages from your employer, pay for the down trodden via higher regional medical costs. The hospitals are going broke because too many people use the ER for their primary care.
But if you are able bodied, forget it.
PSgirl
No, I currently do not have health insurance, can afford it, can't get the plan the coverage. I'm self employed and will likely look for a group job to get the coverage as I'm rolling the dice right now.
Appreciate your and Corey's thoughts.
I swear that I'm not sure you understand even half of my comments here.
I'm not assuming you have health insurance, much less doing so in an arrogant manner.
I was making fun of your 'put a gun to my head to pay for medical care for others' comment following my statement that I don't think the new administration will get there for a few years.
Hence, your safe for a few years if the government isn't putting a gun to your head to make you pay for other people.
Now don't accuse me of ridiculing you in this comment.
Comrade...you have some good things to say sometimes, but on some topics, such as medicine, you are incredibly uninformed. And it always seems that when you dont know the facts, you make up for it by being personally abusive. I dont find that it makes you very appealing. But you are right, on this one, you should log it and sleep to fight another day.
"You're snarky enough, but you don't know me...nor how I'm financed. Please save your "I'm as poor as dirt" finances to yourself. I'll be fine dude. You, on the other hand might look into the concept of saving.
Just sayin'...loser."
Do I sound like I need to save anymore? Unlike you, I gave specifics on what health-care costs and proved I could afford it.
Like I said retard as long as you state unequivocally that you're fine with spending 250k easy out of pocket for that out of the blue accident/illness then be my guest and don't carry health-care.
Some how people always talk big until it comes time to pay the piper.
willingness to do all manner of tests even if not necessary, but "prudent" to do so (i.e. CYA on liability)
people not taking responsibility for selves and pursuing lifestyle choices (smoking, drinking, overeating, etc.) that guarantee future medical intervention.
people not seeking regular attention and letting things get out of control, guaranteeing increased costs.
reality is that in most cases, the largest expenses are incurred in the last several weeks of someone's life as the stops get pulled out to keep things relatively stable. And physicians are lousy at making prognoses on how long someone has to live. So when it finally becomes evident that the patient is going to die, the money's already out of the window.
Belief that there's always a guaranteed cure for something. Sometimes, there's just not much that can be done and you have to move on with it.
willingness to do all manner of tests even if not necessary, but "prudent" to do so (i.e. CYA on liability)
-Spot on. Malpractice insurance is very expensive, and your premiums go up if you have claims against you.
people not taking responsibility for selves and pursuing lifestyle choices (smoking, drinking, overeating, etc.) that guarantee future medical intervention.
-Yes again. It's the obese, diabetic hypertensive that survives his first heart attack at age 50 the costs the system so much.
people not seeking regular attention and letting things get out of control, guaranteeing increased costs.
-Give that man a prize. Annual physical exams detect all kinds of asymptomatic conditions that kill you very slowly at great expense via frequent doc visits, meds, labs, imaging, think about the hypertensive that slowly dies from small strokes, renal failure and heart failure.
reality is that in most cases, the largest expenses are incurred in the last several weeks of someone's life as the stops get pulled out to keep things relatively stable. And physicians are lousy at making prognoses on how long someone has to live. So when it finally becomes evident that the patient is going to die, the money's already out of the window.
-Very true. But there are now checks in place to try and limit the slow lingering hospital deaths that are so expensive. Advanced directives are required at the time of hospital admission; identification of health care power of attorney at admission; Hospitalists that are trained to administer appropriate care to dying patients and know how to talk to families about futile care.
Belief that there's always a guaranteed cure for something. Sometimes, there's just not much that can be done and you have to move on with it.
-See above.
homedad43
Just went through this with my 85 yo Dad. I was HPA and it was a bitch to get my 5 sibs on board with the fact that he was dying and we all just needed to be there with him.
Excellent questions as usual homedad43.
Sorry about your dad. And simple reality is that not everyone can process the situation the same way. My dad underwent stuff he detested just to placate my mother. Didn't mean a damned thing in the end...
Yes, I know the system from multiple angles since wife is hospice physician and I'm a cancer survivor.
Actually HD43 - the only one of those five that is really significant is #5 - greater belief & faith in procedures than is justified by outcomes. The others drive cost but nothing like #5.
1 - tests, yes they cost something buy CYA is a conservative sacred cow that just doesn't hold water. I've read stuff all over on this and you can 'prove' it both ways which means it isn't provable. Dr's I know concur - it's mostly a non-issue.
2 - lifestyle... healthy lifestyle delays but does not prevent cost. If you have a bad lifestyle you get sick & die early, good lifestyle you get sick & die later - either way you get sick & die.
3 - early preventive care vs no prevention, see #2 above... similar situation - mostly effects when you pay not how much (die young or still get old & eventually die)
4 End of life care - yup happens but very often folks don't know when that is. My Aunt had a heart transplant in her 60s - unthinkable at the time... what a waste people said. She died in her 80s. Lived a full quarter of her life w/ somebody else's heart. In most cases its timing again - when will you cost a lot not so much will you or won't you cost a lot.
But #5 is the killer - modern medicine is EXTREMELY capital intensive on top of labor intensive - so you have high fixed & high variable cost... many of the procedures & equipment has 'marginal' effectiveness - or at least marginal for a lot of the 'candidates' that get the procedures. Yet many people demand the procedures - both early & late.
Ration care more aggressively throughout life and you greatly reduce the demand for both labor & capital and drive down cost A LOT.
Dad lived a long happy life. Bowled twice a week, played table tennis twice a week, lived alone, drove a car and had hundreds of his best friends at his memorial. I just made sure his wishes of no life support were met.
Hospice physicians and oncologists are a special group of people. I have the capacity to listen to people and offer comfort, but ultimately it's the family members that need the most care, and that is really tough. Hats off to Dr. homedad43.
Uffish we did hospice for my mom - similar except the 'hundreds' of her friends didn't wait for the memorial - they flew in to see her at the hospice as she was dieing. Her wits were still with her so it turned into a week long party celebrating her life. Craziest thing I ever saw.
Respectively disagree on a couple points:
"#1 - tests, yes they cost something buy CYA is a conservative sacred cow that just doesn't hold water. I've read stuff all over on this and you can 'prove' it both ways which means it isn't provable. Dr's I know concur - it's mostly a non-issue"
-"Anecdote is not data", but speaking from my experience, I covered the ER 7 nights in a row, once a month for a year in radiology residency. Would read about 50 head to toe CT's on MVA patients because the ER docs "had to rule out ___" It was so tedious looking a normal 20-30 yo drunks all night, but usually around 4 AM you would find something life threatening. 50 x $5,000 x 4 (head, chest, abdomen, pelvis) = $1 million billable to their insurance company or medicare/medicaid or the patient (lost revenue, hospital goes broke on non-insured).
"Ration care more aggressively throughout life and you greatly reduce the demand for both labor & capital and drive down cost A LOT."
-Preventive medicine is the key, require annual physicals for all adults, reward or financially punish patients that meet/don't meet their health care goals; weight loss, stop smoking, sugar/blood pressure under control...
Dad had a huge stroke, brother found him the next day. Had a lot of visitors in the hospital but I found that they were mostly his closest friends, most other seniors don't like going to see folks in the hospital.
Glad to hear your mom had a chance to yuck it up with the old pals one more time.
Preventive medicine is the key, require annual physicals for all adults, reward or financially punish patients that meet/don't meet their health care goals; weight loss, stop smoking, sugar/blood pressure under control...
Uffish Thought | 11.06.08 - 1:24 am | #
First off I understand the CYA thing - most practitioners I know (and I know a lot) tell me the their internal QA/QC systems are so regimented by 'best practices' that they don't over or under test - they strictly test 'to script' where CYA is probably embedded in the logic but only one factor - these folks aren't at crappy hospitals either - think Mayo Clinic in MN & large city uni 'teaching' hospitals.
As per preventive - I agree it improves the quality of an individual's life BUT from a cost perspective it isn't 'helpful' over the long haul - here is why:
Say you get good preventive & have a test that finds cancer early when you are say 50 - if not treated you die then & expensive , if treated and you live to 80 THEN die of something else nasty (like another cancer)... it didn't avoid the cost, it delayed the cost.
Even if your preventative actions REDUCE the threats when you are young - not just discover them in time - you still get old & die expensive.
The insurers are KEENLY aware of this so aren't falling all over themselves to offer up preventative care free (if it really saved them money - they would).
Dryfly; Sorry if I miss-stated above, we do agree on the same point, #5 is a huge part of the problem.
A $2 million scanner is run by a $50/hr tech 24/7. Those studies get read by an over paid doc, 40/day.
A modern scanner will produce 2,000 images per study. A lot gets missed, but it's all about production. You are monitored and measured in every conceivable way as all the studies are accessed, dictated and signed off electronically, "Ahh, it took Dr Thought 10 minutes to read that chest CT, cut him loose, he is too slow."
I hear ya - I'm working on parts right now for a new med device of some kind. Just the housing (plastic - size of a paper shredder) is going to cost something like $1000 EACH - we aren't even talking the guts of the machine and the IP used. And that's raw mfg cost - not price. Imagine how much it will be marked up before YOU see one.
Dryfly; Agree, a lot of preventive care is misdirected and expensive.
But there is an economic and moral argument to be made that goes something like this:
1)Keep people healthy and they contribute to society in a productive way.
2)We can't and won't just let people die.
There is a lot of evidence that mammograms reduce morbidity and mortality. But at some point, around age 70, the cost/benefit goes too large to justify it. Try and tell a "healthy 70 yo" we are not screening you for breast cancer any more, you will lose all your patients.
Comment made earlier that unless you are plugged into the system ( i.e. know the players), you will be forever doomed to second, third or ninth tier care is true. If/when we go to nationalized/universal/gubmint care onlyl makes that more so.
I have personal experience with this, and know this to be true.
Sports Guy Lafleur: Just got off the phone with great friend. Had chest pain, went to the ER, found a mass in his lung all on Tuesday. I've spent 4 hours on the phone with him today going over his studies and telling him what to expect next and what his options are.
I totally agree, it's so easy to get lost trying to navigate this incredibility complex system.
There is probably is an opportunity for a private health care consultant to work with clients, at their expense, to expedite care, lobby insurance companies for benefits and do a lot of hand holding when necessary.
Along with the drug companies, all the medical device manufacturers have highly paid reps that spend all day waiting to talk to docs for 5 minutes about their latest product. These reps are all smart, good looking, personable and make big salaries to sell plastic catheters that cost $25k each. Again, billed back to the insurance company, medicare, or non-paying patient.
Those lobbying groups that are going to be hard to shake loose from the system, just like big pharma, when/if we go national.
But like medicare and drugs, generics work just a well. People should be allowed to pay out of pocket for the good stuff if they want it, i.e. controlled release drugs.
shouldn't they update spell checkers to accept 'Obama?'
Reminds me of the newspaper article back in the 1980s when non-human spell checkers were new and the term "black" was falling out of favor with the PC crowd. The paper published a retraction along the lines of, 'We regret yesterday's article informing you that such and such a company was in the "African-American."'
C kidbuck, that's too good.
Just like the voice dictation system I use, I end up spending as much time reporting as I do editing. The system likes to type "per year" when I say "period"
"Follow up in one month per year" just doesn't cut it.
This is sad. Ford and GM are toast and it truly is sad to watch these American icons fall. Both companies built a few thousand TBF (Ford) and TBM (GM) Avengers in WW2, one of which was flown by George HW Bush. These planes were used to destroy Japan. Now, Japan is destroying their makers. We have been living on borrowed time for so long and the sands in the hour glass have finally run out.
If we're trading anecdotes about how horrible socialized medicine is, then I may as well say that I live in Canada and my experience (and those of my friends/family) has been uniformly superb. I've known three people who've been way sick (kidney transplant, heart surgery, and some colon stuff due to Krohn's), and their care has been uniformly superb and timely... no complaints. My own (fortunately less dramatic) experiences have been uniformly excellent as well.
Waiting times for non-life threatening chronic conditions (like hip replacements) suck, it's a known problem here (that is almost unheard of in Europe apparently... not all socialized medicine is the same).
12k a year sounds like quite a nut, there's no way a family of four pays that much in extra taxes.
I too, am wondering if Misean, who is so proud of the fact that "he has no health insurance", has a million bucks put aside to cover his serious car accident care.
If not, and if he is not planning to bleed to death on the emergency room steps after a car accident, then he DOES have medical insurance, but finds it ideologically convenient not to acknowledge that fact.
Even if your preventative actions REDUCE the threats when you are young - not just discover them in time - you still get old & die expensive.
The insurers are KEENLY aware of this so aren't falling all over themselves to offer up preventative care free (if it really saved them money - they would).
yup, we all get old and die
life expectancy figures make us all go, oh shit, i wanna make 83.4 or whatever the latest life expectancy figure is (perhaps the defining boomer bubble, has been going up for more than 100 years now for us westerners, where's the limit) and if it looks like i ain't gonna make 83.4 there better be a phalanx of doctors there to get me past the magic number
if we all stagger over the line, it'll blow up all the insurance companies predicated on just half or less of us doing it
i'm still smoking and drinking and hoping the grim reaper gets me early so's the rest of you have a mathematical chance of making 83.4 or whatever the latest number is...
Yeah, in the next 100 days it will be critical to get a handgun. Does anyone have some suggestions? I'm looking at the Ruger SR9. It's Made in the USA. Someone told me that guns are a better investment than gold.
What's up with the Nikkei?
Oh, I get it. The Japanese don't like black people.
yeah, big announcement on Friday.
Before or after said bell?
I'd like to say they're done (period).
how often to you lose $100+ per share?
Definition of "critical", in this context
I'll tell whats up with the Nikkei.
its called a strong Yen policy. Rewarding the "savers".
Progressing well it is then nemo.
GM is splitting the company in two separate entities. Wait, that was the someone else...
When are we going to get these clowns off the DOW?
It's crap.
Anyone care to explain to me why bailing these beauties out is preferable to a Chapter 11 reorganization that might conceivably put someone competent in charge of their operations?
Yet another gift from the Bush admin. to his succesor.
Previous post:
pie inflation,
The problem with Pareto is that it assumes ceterus paribus. Which doesn't exist in the real world. Further, when gov'ts use force to try and create it it just makes matters worse. How can a gov't know that stealing something from someone and giving it to another increases utility?
They can't. There is no such thing as a util. People value things differently.
If I was dehydrated in the desert and had a brick of glod, and would never make it to a water hole, and someone drove up and said I'll trade you a ride to water for your glod...I'd take it. That can't be modeled at all. Nor can some Pareto efficiency exist.
Pareto was another engineer, along with Walrus, who destroyed economics for generations.
When we get back to logical economics is yet to be seen, but this crap does nothing.
Knurd!
Nostrovia,
If the go Chapter 11, the Fed takes over the Pensions and wipes out the pension fund. A
bailout offers the slim hope of them turning it
around and paying those obligations.
Is there good management anywhere in America that is ready to step up an solve the laundry list of problems the auto companies face?
I actually like the idea of giving it to the union. Sink or swim time is my favorite way of weeding out the weak.
So, we'd say confidence is...economic?
Sorry, what with those fancy degrees and whatnot, I'm still stumbling here.
Next 100 days, as in, before Obama gets inaugurated?
Jeff Daniels on the rocks. Don't drink and drive, dude.
o, weeding out the weak and economics has to do with the ability of managment to identify the survivors and cut the rest loose.
GM should take Chrysler and kill the Chrysler products that are not performing.
0h yeah, retain an interest in a bank spin off. gotta have a floorplan.
Democrats, dont put away the celebratory booze just yet. One of the worlds greatest opportunities for schadenfreude is about to present itself, as an exiting army of Republican foot soldiers tries to sell its Washington-area homes in the worst housing bust since the Great Depression.
Think about it: Many of todays exiting Republican-appointed officials in Washington arrived near the height of the housing bubble, particularly those who came after George W. Bush was re-elected in 2004. Then, it must have seemed as if Republicans had a permanent stranglehold on Washington, and thus it must have also seemed like the appropriate time for conservative migrants to the capital to settle down and buy a home.
Many of these Republican officials nested in northern Virginia, a corner of what had long been a reliable red state. And what a time to buy in northern Virginia it was.
The average housing price in the greater northern Virginia area in September declined 32.11 percent from the previous year, according to the Northern Virginia Association of Realtors.
And this is the market that many Republican officials, with few Washington job prospects during an Obama presidency, will have to sell in.
And this is the market that many Republican officials, with few Washington job prospects during an Obama presidency, will have to sell in.
Well, they'll finally know what their constituents were talking about.
And this is the market that many Republican officials, with few Washington job prospects during an Obama presidency, will have to sell in
Great idea for another bailout plan.
GM should take Chrysler and kill the Chrysler products that are not performing.
0h yeah, retain an interest in a bank spin off. gotta have a floorplan.
Amen. That's the plan. Force Cerberus/GMAC to offer preferred lending for GM products.
is you is, or is you aint, my constitancy.
keep eating the Farina.
Anyone care to explain to me why bailing these beauties out is preferable to a Chapter 11 reorganization that might conceivably put someone competent in charge of their operations?
My opinion is that a BK scares off customers and poisons the brand(s). (People disagree on this). But I am firmly opposed to leaving the current jokers in charge, which seems to be the case as of now. See this for why: http://www.freep.com/article/20081103/MULTI/81102057/1014/BUSINESS01
United still flyes, and the BK in 2002 cost me 3600 bucks.....welcome to my tax profile.
Anyone care to explain to me why bailing these beauties out is preferable to a Chapter 11 reorganization that might conceivably put someone competent in charge of their operations?
Actually, I can give you 700 billion reasons (and more) why bailing them out is not a good idea.
o problemo, have the government cut them a stimulus check as well. Christmas presents for all in the new USSA. WoooHooo
"I'd like to say we're done (with restructuring)"
.... because restructuring is really hard work and unpleasant. I'd much prefer someone just gave me $50-100 billion so I can avoid that. GM will still need to restructure when that runs out, but I'll be that much closer to retirement, and anyway maybe the next guy in this job will get another $50 billion for GM.
What a way to run an economy. And people actually believe this is "economic management", not just a game of moving money from people you don't like so much to people you like more.
Interesting how some folks here scratch their heads when the market behaves irrationally, yet are totally sure the market is making a rational statement to Obama's election.
(by the way, shouldn't they update spell checkers to accept 'Obama?')
mr outsider,
I'll give ya 2 trillion why they should (and more).
Misean,
Yeah, Pareto. Well, I put up a good fight. It's similar to the debate about real vs. nominal prices, in my mind.
A meaningless differentiation that is wholly dependent upon the purchasing power of the subject vis-a-vis their income.
Uggg. I've bitched about it for years. To no avail.
aClem writes:
"Interesting how some folks here scratch their heads when the market behaves irrationally, yet are totally sure the market is making a rational statement to Obama's election."
Who intelligently believes market selloff was anything more than sobering up in face of reality after recent runup? War's over.
. . .the next 100 days could represent the most crucial time . . . .
Talk about covering your bets. 75 days to work on the crowd setting unprecedented records for handouts followed by 25 more to plead for a bone from the next group.
All this is being lobbied by Cerberus Capital Management.
Taken from the 700 billion bailout playbook...must be done immediately or the world as we know it, will end.
Anonymous writes:
"Democrats, dont put away the celebratory booze just yet...."
Nothing like twisting the knife in a dead body. War's over.
can mr accountant tell me how much tax loss carryforward is gonna go down in DC on the changover?
never been a better time to sell your long term cap gains.
oops, more losses? GE under 20 bucks. Check the aught two low around 19.
Comrade Vistulian writes:
Anonymous writes:
"Democrats, dont put away the celebratory booze just yet...."
Nothing like twisting the knife in a dead body. War's over.
Shit. This motherf#cker ain't even started yet.
Taken from the 700 billion bailout playbook...must be done immediately or the world as we know it, will end.
Or, as they say, this sucker's goin down.
Thing is, how many suckers are there? When will it end? Oh, we don't have to bring that whole thing up again.
Cracker writes:
"can mr accountant tell me how much tax loss carryforward is gonna go down in DC on the changover?
never been a better time to sell your long term cap gains."
Why not wait until 2010 when they'll be worth more?
Obama to GM's Wagoner:
"You ain't got no problem, Rick. I'm on the motherfucker. Go back in there and chill them niggers out and wait for the Wolf, who should be coming directly"
What is the amount of outstanding CDS on GM debt?
You forgot to put CR on that list. ;0
This is very serious. I grew up in the Lower Penninsula of MI, where the auto industry puts food on the table for millions of people.
If the auto companies fall apart, Michiganders will become the 21st Century Joads.
I can't think of a smart-ass thing to say right now. Feeling worried about all my old high school friends, with kids and house payments.
when will it end?
the end was the last final in your senior year of college and you took the 3 month trip to Santorini.....
when its real life, it dont end till it ends....
And this is the market that many Republican officials, with few Washington job prospects during an Obama presidency, will have to sell in...
On the other hand, those houses will still be unsold in 2010 when the Democrats lose 300 seats in Congress in the midst of the economic aftermath of a nuclear war between Israel and Iran. $100 gallon gasoline and daily suicide bombings in U.S. cities might tarnish the Messiah's halo.
when its real life, it dont end till it ends....
That end is going to be so ugly you aren't going to want to be there. Do we go there, or try something else?
Anonymous writes:
Anonymous writes:
"Shit. This motherf#cker ain't even started yet."
Dude, time to chill.
can't think of a smart-ass thing to say right now. Feeling worried about all my old high school friends, with kids and house payments.
I'm with you. Bail out the white collar elites and their lackeys but, leave millions of working Americans to Bush's ownership society and leave them on their ow
Sweet, John S. I can't find the words to express my disgust with your ilk. Don't let the screen door hit ya.
Comrade Vistulian writes:
Anonymous writes:
Anonymous writes:
"Shit. This motherf#cker ain't even started yet."
Dude, time to chill.
Dude, I ain't nothing but chilled. Just stating facts
What's with Halo dropping links?
2nd try.
'Boston Legal' Gets Fired Up Over Election at Hollywood.com
$100 gallon gasoline and daily suicide bombings in U.S. cities might tarnish the Messiah's halo.
John S | 11.05.08 - 9:59 pm | #
Hey, John, if you want to refer to Obama as the Messiah, can I refer to Bush as the dumbest fucking President ever?
Just aski
Who linked CR at survivalacres.com?
Hey, John, if you want to refer to Obama as the Messiah, can I refer to Bush as the dumbest fucking President ever?
only if you include the most incompetent also
CSC-
You got a hookup on some BMX-style "urban battle armor"?
I'm not worried about armageddon. Just wanna relive my youth.
PS- anyone registered urbanbattlearmor.com, yet?
Anyone care to explain to me why bailing these beauties out is preferable to a Chapter 11 reorganization that might conceivably put someone competent in charge of their operations?
In a chapter 11 reorganization, the current management generally stays in as debtor-in-possession. It's rare that the US Trustee will allow/appoint an outside team because the extra cost (those teams are expensive) takes from the creditors.
If I recall : Friday is FDIC pizza potluck night.
So perhaps GMAC becomes a bank on Thursday and is promptly seized on Friday?
That should make the GM / Chrysler deal work.
Our parents and grandparents must have been a much hardier generation than we are. They survived the Great Satan Roosevelt and lived to see the paradise of Nixon, Reagan, Bush and Bush. Ah, Paradise Lost!
been doing some digging....
My take: Friday they announce a pre-packaged BK (what an odd press stmt). Gives them time to shed some obligations, for the new admin. to assume their roles and for suiters to put up or shut up.
The Unions will now feel the pain of those benefits and grandfathered items as they go all away in BK...
going short for a lot...to good to be true
I think CSC is working the night vision goggles..... dont need battle armor, the wolf is on this motherf-cker.
is you is, or is you aint my negro?
holla.
I'd like to be the buyer of protection of a CDS on the political commenters. Definitely want to be compensated when they go away.
I think we are having crisis exhaustion. A 500 point drop and it is just a ho hum day. With the kind of economic news we are going to see in the next ninety days, watch out below.
bagholder energyecon writes:
What is the amount of outstanding CDS on GM debt?
bagholder energyecon | Homepage | 11.05.08 - 9:58 pm | #
Last I read it was $1 Trillion.
Once again to all those who want GM to go Chap 11 and are basing their opinion on pre 2005 BK law, BAPCA didn't just screw the middle class, it screws any company with derivatives or swaps in their debt exempting those from the BK courts control. Creditors will swoop in and take ALL the family jewels and the BK court can't stop them.
"The Japanese don't like black people" I know you jest as we all now have to adjust our style.
basell dos has it,
protect the unsecured creditors at any cost....
Next 100 days... really?
What about the previous 100 days?
That's goooood management...
GM will be the Wamu lesson in real time on friday.
protect the unsecured creditors at any cost....
In bankruptcy, creditors is a very broad term: governments, employees, pension fund beneficiaries, etc.
"Feeling worried about all my old high school friends, with kids and house payments"
Me too as my best man was a cobbler and had to change carrers mid-stream because it was cheaper to by new than drop your old shoes off for new souls.
why@zirp,
That would be the financial OK Corral, DTCC net exposure notwithstanding...
I would like to pre-order the 1982 Mongoose red chest protector with the black/white/silver "parachute-style" Diamond Back pants.
I was thinking some frilly cravats in purple and white to round things out- "Wonka" style.
(Ya gotta have some panache when the SHTF.)
Our parents and grandparents must have been a much hardier generation than we are.
If you think about it, the early settlers came here without factory jobs or 401k's or pensions, and somehow a good number of them survived (considering). No HMOs, no grocery stores, no infrastracture.
I'm wondering how much stuff we don't even know about that the current admin has been doing to prop everything up through the election - now they have even less reason than ever to give a crap about anything.
National healthcare would save GM something like $1800/car. That would help immediately, and would make them more appealing as a business partner.
Outsider - they worked hard, had focus and no neighbors to blame.
Of course they survived.
Yes Outsider, but the mortality rate was rather, ah, high. No need for a 401k when you're dead from smallpox.
That would be the financial OK Corral, DTCC net exposure notwithstanding...
citizen energyecon | Homepage | 11.05.08 - 10:11 pm | #
Too big to fail, won't be allowed.
True, there was a high mortality rate. But in every colony? Not sure.
I'm curious. Am I the only one here that realizes that we're in a state of debt saturation and each action to strengthen the current weak link simply forces failure at the next weakest link?
I mean, come on.
This has been going on for almost two years now. Sub-prime, and then Alt-A, the original "credit crisis", etc, etc.
Not even the doomsters talk about it.
What the hell?
Is the cultural delusion that strong?
"History Repeating" -
YouTube -
yawn.
Nevertheless I do admire their grit. Most people I know would rather just take a handful of hemlock.
Am I the only one here that realizes that we're in a state of debt saturation and each action to strengthen the current weak link simply forces failure at the next weakest link?
I think the proper term is "kicking the can."
Maybe they'll announce they've been bought out by Chrysler ?
POOR ME.........
Mel,
Well I'm glad you want to do that. You pay for it voluntarily. I'll stay out cuz I don't give a frick.
You wanna be a charity, go for it. But if you argue the gov't ought to put a gun to my head and rob me for your stoopidity...you gat another thing coming.
Knurd!
Nostrovia,
Wanker.
Maybe they'll announce they've been bought out by Chrysler ?
sporkfed
nope! why wait a few days? put your ducks together and go pre-packaged bk.
Most people I know would rather just take a handful of hemlock.
Well, there ya go. Problem solved.
Jeff Bottema - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
in bankruptcy = in delfation
governments, bondholders, pensionaires.... those with "claims" on money......
SAVE THE KRILL!!!
whales the useless.
sporkfed writes:
Maybe they'll announce they've been bought out by Chrysler ?
I think they're going to announce a CEO change. George Bush will be taking over on Jan. 21st 2009
Wanker.
Comrade Misean is Dope
Misean - I have never seen you use such language..
You pay for it voluntarily. I'll stay out cuz I don't give a frick.
You do realize nationalized healthcare is coming, right?
If I have to go without toilet paper, I may be first in line.
The ongoing complicity between UAW and GM management to keep payrolls bloated to blackmail levels HAS to stop. Unfortunately there is nothing I've seen in Obama's campaign that promises anything other than more of the same handout nonsense.
George Bush will be taking over on Jan. 21st 2009
Anonymous
maybe he wants a real job where success is measured in losses
You do realize nationalized healthcare is coming, right?
Outsider
oh please, the US is broke. This is the very last on the program and something for 2023 electio
18 lbs... Ah, that's it. Bad management had nothing to do with it. Thanks for the insight.
Barley,
Well I did say I was a bit of an anglophile...and Wanker fit.
Knurd!
Nostrovia,
maybe he wants a real job where success is measured in losses
That's the only jobs he's had his entire life. Don't you know his bio? He is one consistent fuck up
Man, if the Feds keep fixing the weakest link, it's eventually going to round-robin around to Treasury bills or the dollar.
And that will probably be the "unfixable" event.
The Credit Card Bond failure today is another symptom. I can't even grasp that 30% returns are being shunned now. Yow.
Comrade Misean is Dope
why not say dit instead of wanker?
Facts? LOL!
Here's a couple of facts:
Ever since B. Hussein Obama was elected, the DOW is off 486 points.
Ever since the have-nots increased their seats in the house and senate, the DOW is off 486 points.
In the day before B. Hussein Obama was elected, under the presidency of George W. Bush, the DOW was up over 300 points.
Let's not even mention the job numbers that were announced since B. Hussein Obama was elected.
These are facts. Some of us are already keeping score. Let's just call it a perverted enthusiasm for the facts.
dd
If I have to go without toilet paper, I may be first in line.
We're solving problems all over the place tonight.
Blivet is more appropriate than Wanker.
sadly, Rick Wagoneer aint my negro.
All wagons head west and North.... never been a better time to vote with yo feet.
You do realize nationalized healthcare is coming, right?
Please get the terms right.
We will never have nationalized health care (e.g. England) in this country. In this system, the health care is actually provided by the government. Every single piece of the puzzle (hospitals, physicians, medical schools) is against it.
Universal (e.g. Canada) maybe. Health care is paid for by the government.
CM is Dope
Every other country does "charity" except the US--and that puts GM at a disadvantage. You know that but enjoy being smarmy because it sounds kewl--or cruel. Whatever, it's not our decision--but the consequences will affect innocents--back to your definition of charity. It's a values question--each person has their own--mine differs from yours.
dr digits,
and all the other down days were based on premonitions? because two things happen in sequence does not prove cause and effect. And my point was that if it's irrational when Obama was not president elect, why is it rational when he is? My perverted enthusiasm for logic and reason.
You do realize nationalized healthcare is coming, right?
If you're over 65, you already have it - and my observation is 90% of patients are there. relax, it ain't so bad - the bills get written off about 80%, but the docs wear your ass out passing you around for billing.
jus sayin' - I really liked the market action today. Slow constant bleed down right into the close, with nice followthru AH. Lots of econ data thru Friday.
There can't be a lot of buyers emerging at these levels given the steady stream of grim news. CSCO was scary since Chambers is normally very upbeat. 760 is a stones throw from here.
Universal (e.g. Canada) maybe.
Forgive me, universal health care.
Most (all?) states already have it in place for children (up to middle income levels). Will it take much to ramp it up to adults?
I'm not saying I'm in favor of this. I just see it coming down the pike.
CSC can I get a witness for some thread music, or are you blinded by night vision goggles?
Outsider, I don't know why you don't like me. I think you're swell.
ational healthcare?? Only if the gov gives free national chickens and national potatoes to pay the bill.
Unions get GM. Great idea. Let those dumb s*&ts figure out how to balance the checkbooks. Big dose of reality right there, and a brickwall understanding that this isn't 1920. Hell, this ain't the 1970's.
Still long cat food.
Mom's gotta eat.
No, not premonitions aClem. EVERYONE knows the other down days occurred under democrat the controlled congress. Jees man, let's stick to the facts and not try to be clever by half employing logic and reason.
dd
We are all a bit testy tonight, probably because we didn't get to blow off steam last night. This thread music should put your vibes back a bit:
YouTube -
Barley,
Cuz dit, is a new one to me. Elaborate. I'm always interested. I think The English do better with it than us yanks.
Also been 15 years since I've been back. Glod, I gotta go back. Love it.
Knurd!
Nostrovia,
thank you.
[Unions get GM. Great idea]
I agree. Let 'em show us how it's done.
dd... lol, you are funny. And I don't lol easily.
Will it take much to ramp it up to adults?
The problem is that policymakers are putting the cart before the horse. They should work on cutting costs FIRST (e.g. patent reform, drug safety, etc) before putting a floor under an asset-inflated industry.
The personal element notwithstanding, universal health care at this moment is the equivalent of the various "universal" housing initiatives.
Anyone watching SouthPark right now?
Not hilarious. Hilarii.
you pry my big o tires from my cold dead hands at the point of a white shotgun wedding.
the early settlers came here without factory jobs or 401k's or pensions, and somehow a good number of them survived
Of course they survived.
But they were really pissed off about it.
Surviving, that is. Haven't you seen those grim faces in the early photographs? Mish had one last month.
And a hidden gem some parrotheads may have missed:
YouTube - jimmy buffett - The Hang-Out Gang - Now Yer Squawkin
I want this played at my wake.
Global reality sets in agai
John S. - I told you to go to your room. Now, get in there and close the door, and don't come out 'till I tell ya!
CSC, Would you describe yourself as more Cheech than Chong?
me likey yen.
I'm too pissy for that.
Yeah I can chill...
But what I wanna hear is:
YouTube - Rage against the machine - Killing in the Name
Knurd!
Nostrovia,
Mel: Haha. I'd never thought about that, but yes. And more Tosh than Marley.
CSC:
YouTube - CSN Wooden Ships
CSC, We are all a bit testy tonight, probably because we didn't get to blow off steam last night
Speak for yourself, man.
I got my steam off just fine, thanks.
Off to buy cheap new shoes and play post-obamalyptic pool!
Misean had a bad day - sorry 'bout that
gotta run
Asia goes red. hoocudanood.
BH,
you gonna get somebody to break in the new shoes?
I thought these dudes had a bailout pony?
The insurance financial strength rating was cut to Baa1 from Aa3 to reflect Ambac's diminished business and financial profile,'' New York-based Moody's said in a statement today. The outlook for the ratings isdeveloping,'' Moody's said.
shoyu writes:
one gallon container last whole year.
Come on kids, lets just get do it and get it over with.
YouTube -
Thread music:
Truth is out of Style
I may be just a hick, but doesn't universal health
care mean more demand in relation to supply ?
Either costs go up or quality go down.
New York City, reeling from financial turmoil on Wall Street, must roll back a property tax cut and reduce its workforce by 3,000 to help shrink a $4 billion budget gap over the next 18 months, Mayor Michael Bloomberg said.
The job cuts, including the firing of 500 workers, and a 7 percent property tax increase starting in January, were included in a budget modification plan Bloomberg presented in City Hall today. They represent part of an effort to save $1.5 billion to offset projected tax revenue declines. The city faces $3.1 billion less in revenue in the year starting July 1 than last year, the mayor said.
``There is no magic answer,'' Bloomberg, 66, said. Even with the savings and tax rollback, the mayor projected a $1.3 billion budget gap for fiscal 2010 beginning July 1.
Comrade Vistulian writes:
"Come on kids, lets just get do it and get it over with.
YouTube - ? v=st1lH8zcIuQ
Holy smokes, that's the answer! I just solved the entire housing crisis.
How come CSC didn't think of this?
Deductibles control the overuse problem with private insurers and would work for a government healthcare program.
what about the Bloomberg chateau?
thats the question.
rents for sheeples.
I may be just a hick, but doesn't universal health
care mean more demand in relation to supply ?
Either costs go up or quality go down.
Don't forget the third inevitability: rationing.
I may be just a hick, but doesn't universal health care mean more demand in relation to supply ? sporkfed
Nothing wrong with the logic, but every other developed country somehow provides Universal Health Care at between half and two thirds the cost per capita of US healthcare. Might be time to quit chanting "We're Number One" and go figure out how they do it.
Biz Ruins:
I see you as more Depeche Mode, Personal jesus...
maybe you are younger than I thought.
--Feeling unknown
And youre all alone
Flesh and bone
By the telephone
Lift up the receiver
Ill make you a believer
can we get a
Nouriel 'market's will be shutdown' Roubini update.
I bow to the market.
whatever I make it.
Don't forget the third inevitability: rationing.
Corey | Homepage | 11.05.08 - 10:46 pm | #
Fourth would be lower quality providers.
Sporkfef and Corey - that's a bit simplistic and short term way to think about the problem.
You see, when 45-50 million dont have insurance, it creates its own problems. One, regular health maintenance is not taken care of, meaning, a greater number of more serious and costly problems later in life. Second, when any remotely serious issue comes up, it's straight to the emergency room. Add to this the fact that about 80% of all medical spending is created by about 10% of the patient population.
Look, you dont solve health care right away. You set up a system that in the short run is going to be more costly, so that you can get to a system down the road that is much more efficient.
I am a quality provider.
What's up in The Land of Toto?
The Bloomberg Kansas Index is a price-weighted index designed to measure the performance of the local economy.
Bloomberg.com:
Regional Indexes
Down like a wet witch @ -9.452% ?? Why?
Effective funds rate at about,
oh lets call it, 0.50.
not long till you have to pay for a savings account.
thxkaibye
Nothing wrong with the logic, but every other developed country somehow provides Universal Health Care at between half and two thirds the cost per capita of US healthcare. Might be time to quit chanting "We're Number One" and go figure out how they do it.
Since I've been self employed (2 decades), I've used several HMOs. I've also lived abroad in several countries and used public healthcare in Germany, Switzerland, Greece and the U.K. I choose the European version every time over an U.S. HMO. I've gotten much more professional care and longer attention and that's a fact.
I guess Santa has a few empty sleighs:
YRC Worldwide Inc. and Con-way Inc., the biggest U.S. trucking companies by sales, probably will say earnings fell in the third quarter because of a drop in shipments.
As global credit markets seized up, freight demand dwindled heading into the industry's peak season before the Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays, the American Trucking Associations says. Con-way will report a smaller profit today while YRC likely will post a loss tomorrow, according to analysts' estimates.
``In many ways conditions are as bleak as they've ever been,'' said Donald Broughton, an Avondale Partners LLC analyst based in Creve Coeur, Missouri.
I ran out after the doc trid to kill me.
I guess this is also freaking people out for some reason, even though it's old news:
On October 24, 2008, QRCP entered an agreement with its lender to amend its $33.5 million term loan with a maturity of July 11, 2010. Among other terms of the amendment, the lender agreed to waive any potential non-compliance in prior periods that was a direct or indirect consequence of the questionable transfer of approximately $10 million of funds from the Quest entities to an entity controlled by QRCP's former chief executive officer
Doctor killed my neighbor right here in the good ol' USA. Didn't have to go all the way to Thailand.
"Look, you dont solve health care right away. You set up a system that in the short run is going to be more costly, so that you can get to a system down the road that is much more efficient."
Hey, great idea! That sounds just as logical as "we're losing on each unit, but will make it up on volumne."
If the reimbursements are reduced, many men and women will not go to med school any more. It is too grueling.
The problem is that if you aren't a health care insider or "medical" in some way, you don't even know if the care that you are getting is adequate and/or appropriate.
Circuit City waiting for bailout: To date, the company has been unable to collect an income tax refund of approximately $80 million that the company believes it is owed from the federal government. Soooo, as a result of the company's ongoing asset productivity assessment and working capital situation, the company has determined to take the
following initial actions with respect to its domestic segment real estate
portfolio and strategy:
-- Close 155 stores and exit certain markets:
Once GM starts building cars that i want to buy, I will buy. It is as simple as that.
I'm seeing a small pattern:
Close 155 stores and exit certain markets
freight demand dwindled heading into the industry's peak season before the Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays, the American Trucking Associations says.
Link to the story on the Credit Card Bond failure commented on earlier.
Credit Card Bond Sales at Zero, First Time Since 1993 (Update1)
By Sarah Mulholland
Nov. 5 (Bloomberg) -- Credit card companies were shut out of the market for bonds backed by customer payments in October for the first time in more than 15 years, as investors shunned the debt amid the global credit freeze.
Credit Card Bond Sales at Zero, First Time Since 1993 (Update1) - Bloomberg.com
Must also be a big slowdown in resort bookings for XMAS, which is being priced into a few stocks, like DiamondRock:
Lodging real estate investment trust Host Hotels & Resorts reported that its third-quarter profit plummeted 44 percent to $54 million from a year ago. Income from continuing operations declined by 56 percent to $41 million.
Geoff writes:
You see, when 45-50 million dont have insurance
Where'd you get this number? Never mind. There's no reliable cite for it.
And anyway, "don't have insurance" is not the same thing as "don't have access to medical care." Some people make a rational economic choice to not purchase health insurance. When I was in my 20s I didn't buy health insurance and simply paid for my medical expenses out of pocket. I was in generally good health, physically fit, ate reasonably, and did not smoke. It was a reasonable "gamble" for me to forego insurance and pay out of pocket for treatment when I contracted pneumonia or Hep A. When I hit my early 30s, I bought a health insurance policy (Kaiser) and have had it ever since. It's quite reasonably priced ($296/month) and provides very good quality of service.
Quality health care and affordable health insurance are widely available for those that wish to purchase it. If you are a 41 year old man and it is not important enough to you to pay $296/month for health care, then why should it be important enough to make your neighbors pay for it? And if you cannot afford $296/month, then I submit that you've made some bad choices in your life. Regrettable, but hardly my responsibility. How many people have cable TV ($100/mo) and cell phones and other luxuries, but claim they cannot afford health care?
Let's stop pretending that socialized medicine is about "efficiency" or "fairness". It merely embodies the hope of every citizen that he will be able to stick his neighbor with his medical bills.
155 stores times 10.
pheww, only adds 1550 to the jobs number tomorrow.
whats the 120 million migrant China workers gonna do?
smoke opium and avoid tax?
I understand other countries have universal health care. they also have the luxury of the US providing
for their security. If we stop defending the world could the afford to pay for it along proving universal coverage ?
One thing for certain, taking care of all those who can't afford health insurance, flies in the face of Darwinism. With the new political landscape, we don't need to start a pissing contest with the Darwinians.
Ship the sick to Canada and offer some carbon offset credits for good measure.
dd
[Either costs go up or quality go down.
sporkfed]
You know, I have been trying to explain that to the duped socialists forever. It's pretty simple yet they don't get it. Makes me wonder what else they don't get. You can fool some of the people some of the time and others all the time.
"Look, you don't solve health care right away. You set up a system that in the short run is going to be more costly, so that you can get to a system down the road that is much more efficient.
Geoff"
Agree. It would take a short time to get un/under-insured people into the system and deal with their chronic issues that are going to cost everyone big bucks down the road when they are in medicare. It will take years to begin to change the paradigm that the high cost of medical school/residency is payed off in a few years of high salary. One way out of the trap is to make medical school/residency free with a commitment to work, in your chosen field, for x years before setting up in private practice. Once your commitment is repaid, the well off pay out of pocket for superior care from an experienced Doc with no waiting time. You would loose a lot of intelligent people to other professions, as the big bucks won't be there immediately, but the top students in every class go into dermatology and ophthalmology anyway as the hours and pay are good, and how many of these sub-specialty people do we need compared to cardiologists, oncologists, endocrinologists?
Should read "If we stop defending the world could they afford to pay for their defense and universal health care ?
When you start to think of connections here, think DiamondRock and Bank Of America, i.e, BAC depends on cash flow from tourists that spend cash on vacations; no tourists, no cash flow, div is cut and BAC revenues decline and they cut divs.. so sorry!
Oh Glod!
Every other nation is doing stupidity...so we should too.
You know in Canada, going to the Dr. for a hangover absolutely excuses you from being late for work?
Change the STOOPID FDR imposed price controls of the 30's where employer financed tax free insurance came into being, because it was a benefit that big companies could offer above FDR's wage controls, and give it to the individual and viola problem solved.
Knowing the root of the problem provides it's solution.
Unlike accidents, health CANNOT be insured. Everyone gets sick. Not everyone pilots a ship filled with coal into an iceberg.
Think about it.
Knurd!
Nostrovia,
Right Corey. I am almost 50 with a cancer diagnosis and mine is still only $411.00 per month.
I keep hearing that health care for a family of 4 is 12K per year and I think WTF are they talking about.
I understand other countries have universal health care. they also have the luxury of the US providing
for their security.
Give me a break. I think we covered that recently about Japan and I can assure you that most countries are not looking for "U.S. security". The U.S. has 700 bases around the world for rather selfish reasons and they fall in line with the term "imperial".
So what's going on with the TARP?
"they also have the luxury of the US providing for their security."
I'm pretty certain that we have been adding to their insecurity these last eight years.
I keep hearing that health care for a family of 4 is 12K per year and I think WTF are they talking about.
Well, I pay for 2 people $880 a month for my HMO in SoCal.
Corey - there are tons of "cites" for the number of uninsured in the US. Here is but one, from a fairly reliable source :
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/567737
Just because the US choses to have bases for selfish reasons doesn't mean that the host nation doesn't
take advantage of the situation.
Obviously Circuit City should get TARP funds and then banks should be giving people zero % credit cards!
Cracker writers:
I see you as more Depeche Mode, Personal jesus
http://www.last.fm/music/Rakim/_/Concrete+Jungle?autostart
[Might be time to quit chanting "We're Number One" and go figure out how they do it.
vtcodger]
DING! That's the dirty little secret.
My dad lives in Canada. He needed a replacement hip but after 3 years of waiting and almost wheelchair bound he came to the USA and got it done in 1 week.
He also needed an MRI - took 3 months.
He got sick and his Dr told him to take baby aspirin. When he came to visit me I took him in to a Dr who gave a shit (at ~ $10/visit the quality of care is rather limited) and after a rash of tests we discovered he had cancer.
Get the picture. Hint - Don't pay a lot of attention to hustlers like M Moore. He's got an agenda and makes $$$$$ duping the naive.
RE--sounds like the newest bubble.
What are the ages? Are there chronic illnesses?
"Look, you dont solve health care right away. You set up a system that in the short run is going to be more costly, so that you can get to a system down the road that is much more efficient..."
OMG, a little pee just squirted.
Would the gubmint be part of this new efficient system - like the role they provide thru Medicare, Fannie Mae, and DOE? Just curious.
More pee!
Again,
Unlike accidents, health CANNOT be insured. Everyone gets sick. Not everyone pilots a ship filled with coal into an iceberg.
Knurd!
Nostrovia,
Mid fifties, no chronic illnesses.
Ah, that's it. Bad management had nothing to do with it. Thanks for the insight.
Excuse me? I explicitly called out GM management.
Thanks for the "insight"...
Lehman Brothers trying to pull a fast one and get $144 million dividend on a bankrupt development:
Bakersfield Bubble
And Corey - your semi correct on parts of your analysis. Yes, insurance is available for people to purchase. And yes, you chose not to when you were healthy, and later, chose to purchase as your risk profile went up. However, you'd have thought twice about that had something awful befallen you when you were healthy..you know, something catastrophic and sudden.
But perhaps you should think about the case for others who make much less a year..say, minimum wage with no health bennies. When you make $1500 a month, $250 a month is 1/6 of your monthly nut. Do you trade food for health insurance?
PSgirl writes:
I keep hearing that health care for a family of 4 is 12K per year and I think WTF are they talking about.
The other day I had a conversation with a young waitress at a diner. She was complaining that health insurance was "so expensive". I asked her if she had ever actually priced a policy. She was evasive, but eventually admitted that she had not, and that she was simply going by what she heard from her friends. When I told her that reasonable medical coverage for her would be around $100/month she was dumbfounded.
Health insurance is affordable and available to those who choose to purchase it.
RE,
So never been ill and gone to doctor for it. Cool. I don't go unless I can't get out of bed.
Knurd!
Nostrovia,
I keep hearing that health care for a family of 4 is 12K per year and I think WTF are they talking about.
PSgirl | 11.05.08 - 11:14 pm | #
Maybe you're not a family of 4 because that's WTF it is.
Yeah, and with 100 billion in CDS contracts, I would say so.
GM and Ford are going down within the next year, unless O-shit! slaps large tariffs on imported vehicles. Let's see how pro-Detroit he is. I'm afraid that he's more pro-Detroit for the Muslims there rather than the auto workers.
I keep hearing that health care for a family of 4 is 12K per year and I think WTF are they talking about.
PSgirl | 11.05.08 - 11:14 pm | #
We pay Kaiser $988 a month, no dental for our family of 4. $11,856.
Dental last year was $1350 out of pocket, cleanings, 2 xrays and 2 fillings.
My 9 yo is going to need braces due to an overbite. Budgeting $2500 initial and $1000 for maintenance.
My wife and I net $75,000 a year. Our health care expenses take a hefty bite of our balance sheet.
Tax returns have helped but with the inevitable local/state/federal tax increases coming I'm not counting on those returns as much.
Healthcare is an issue in this country and yearly double digit cost increases have to be addressed. I don't have an answer but I do recognize the problem.
zoom...I wonder how many illegals you're subsidizing?
Getting through 100 days is easy - just cut the advertising expenses in half.
I have never, ever seen so many ads in every type of media, virtually everywhere for GM products.
The ads are obviously not working and the savings would provide some immediate relief.
Geoff
"But perhaps you should think about the case for others who make much less a year..say, minimum wage with no health bennies. When you make $1500 a month, $250 a month is 1/6 of your monthly nut. Do you trade food for health insurance?"
Aw, me heart bleeds. If you're old enough to NEED health care and still here...Why the F should I care. I was there in my late teens and early 20's. Moved on. You're still there after that...you're a drain. Liberals are big on Darwin. Well there ya go.
Knurd!
Nostrovia,
No really, I'm not kidding. What's going on with the TARP? I thought there was going to be some website we could look at to see where the money was going.
[Maybe you're not a family of 4 because that's WTF it is.
sportsfan ]
For that $12k/yr you probably have pretty damn good coverage with very low deductibles. That $12k/yr is what it'll cost the government only you'll get the coverage of a $100/mo plan.
So never been ill and gone to doctor for it. Cool. I don't go unless I can't get out of bed.
I don't use it a lot either. In fact, I live presently about a 1000 miles from the facility... It is expensive worst case insurance.
dope. truly you are
Universal Health Care is coming to the US for one simple reason:
Too much of a drain on companies bottom line. Especially when they compete globally against parts of the world with government run health-care.
On the Lehman link I posted, they are trying to concel the information on the $144 million special dividend...they have filed a C&D to stop this information from getting out...scum bags!
Bakersfield Bubble
Ok, here is the deal. It sounds like California has expensive insurance.
Why should I have to subsidize your expensive insurance when I choose to live in a state that has less expensive coverage?
Think about it. If you lived in a state where coverage was less expensive, would you want to pay for mine in CA?
zoom,
If your Kaiser is like my Kaiser, the premiums manage to increase precisely 15% per annum.
WHat the hell is wrong with all you naive misguided people here ? I thought this site had skeptics on board ?
You are talking about the USG. The most inefficient loser operation that makes GM look like a well oiled machine. Holy crap. Think about it for God sakes.
Oh, and braces are a luxury, not a necessity.
zoom writes:
I keep hearing that health care for a family of 4 is 12K per year and I think WTF are they talking about.
PSgirl | 11.05.08 - 11:14 pm | #
We pay Kaiser $988 a month, no dental for our family of 4. $11,856.
Interesting. Here in Oregon/Washington a Kaiser policy for a family of 4 is $536/mo (oldest in the 40-45 range). I wonder why the huge difference. You wouldn't happen to be in.....California?
My stock picks now include European defense
companies. When we have Universal coverage they'll
have to start paying for their own defense.
Medical costs should not be reduced by lowering doctor's wages. They should be reduced by lowering his costs, namely malpractice insurance. In fear of being sued, he orders more expensive tests than are necessary, to cover himself. Also, the for profit HMO model rewards management by restricting care. In addition, patent protection for medicines is longer than is necessary to recover R/D costs, often being renewed and extended for minor changes to the formula. All these groups lobby heavily, all costs of which get passed on to the consumer. Coffee, anyone?
Russia's MICEX exchange halted trade for one hour after its benchmark index surged 9.9 percent and all-share index rose 12 percent, following two days of holidays in Russia.
Russia and Kazakhstan's five-year credit default swaps (CDS), used to insure against restructuring or default of debt, have narrowed below 500 basis points from levels above the key 1,000 mark, indicating distressed debt levels, a few weeks ago.
Ukraine's CDS are quoted at 1,550-1,750 bps, a trader from a European bank said, compared with recent levels near 3,000 bps
BTW, I can get that same coverage ($880) in Switzerland for $340 and I can chose my doctor.
Seems that some systems do work. It is simply a matter of proper management. We should be able to achieve the same thing in the U.S.
RE--have you tried finding other policies?
"Why should I have to subsidize your expensive insurance when I choose to live in a state that has less expensive coverage?"
For the same reason California subsidizes your general cost of living via negative Federal subsidies unlike almost every other state in the US.
California gets significantly less from the Federal Government versus state tax receipt remittance back to to Fed.
Health insurance is affordable and available to those healthy, single people who choose to purchase it.
Corrected that for you...
Group work policy runs about $9600 per year (employeer + employee) for the family. I opted out and purchased a private plan for about $6,500.
Health care has reached a tipping point. People who are healthy are opting out in droves leaving only the sickest in the group plans. Doesn't work.
sportsfan writes:
zoom,
If your Kaiser is like my Kaiser, the premiums manage to increase precisely 15% per annum.
This has not been my experience.
Last year: $289/month
This year: $296/month
Increase: 2.4%
I am: 41-year old man. Oregon/Washington. Kasier "gold" plan.
RE--have you tried finding other policies?
I have but not too many options with reasonable coverage once you are in your fifties. It was easy before.
bearly,
"You are talking about the USG. The most inefficient loser operation that makes GM look like a well oiled machine. Holy crap. Think about it for God sakes."
Well I was getting ready to vent my spleen int that direction, but yu beat me to it.
Knurd!
Nostrovia,
Corey,
Geography affects premiums, no doubt. But I will say Kaiser has always provided good quality service and that is something worth paying for.
No, we don't use it much, but then I don't want to use life insurance much either.
Clearly some people on this board are only in touch with medical care talking points, and havent spent much time figuring out how the system works, and why it is broken.
New Federal Loan Program announced by the Treasury Department.
A new Federally sponsored loan program is being announced today to help
spur consumer spending. The new loan program will be called the Federal
Consumer Lending Program (FECOLP). These loans will be available for
large ticket consumer items; such as wide-screen TV's and Automobiles.
Interest rates will be fixed every year by the Treasure Department, with
an initial rate of 1.5%. The new loan program calls for interest payments
to be deferred. On selected items, initially SUVs, principle payments
can also be deferred for up to 10 years. This is expected to jump-start
the ailing US automobile industry.
FECOLP authorizes banks and other lending institutions to sell the loans
directly to consumers. The loans are then immediately purchased by
Fecol-Mae a new Government Sponsored Enterprise (GSE) - which packages
the loans into government guaranteed AAA rated securities, selling them on
the open market. The Treasury Department expects FECOLP Loans - known as
Fecal Loans by the Consumer Lending Industry - will help spur economic
growth, create jobs, and end the economic malaise the country is currently
experiencing.
Part of the Fecal Authorization Act also provides for State Fecal
Guarantee Agencies which modeled on the widely successful Student
Lending Guarantee Agencies - would help guarantee the Fecal Loan's AAA
bond rating.
"the end was the last final in your senior year of college and you took the 3 month trip to Santorini...."
Hot MILF Meridith Whitney;
"...double digit unemployment..."
Video - CNBC.com
Soon it became apparent that one was a police officer and they would only share a bed with each other.
Still a fond memory though.
OT, but good for you: "The recent financial crisis could negatively affect our business, results of operations, and financial condition," Intel wrote in its 10Q filing, published by the SEC on Friday.
Intel spells out how the credit crunch in particular could affect the company: "There could be a number of follow-on effects from the credit crisis on Intel's business, including insolvency of key suppliers resulting in product delays; inability of customers to obtain credit to finance purchases of our products and/or customer insolvencies; counterparty failures negatively impacting our treasury operations; increased expense or inability to obtain short-term financing of Intel's operations from the issuance of commercial paper; and increased impairments from the inability of investee companies to obtain financing."
RE,
Yeah, cuz illegal aliens from 3rd world central and south american countries, with there ability to squirt out anchor babies is a real threat in Switzerland.
By the by, Switzerland banks are about to T-Up from Eastern European loans.
C-ya!
Knurd!
Nostrovai,
Pissed off--
I don't want any CA subsidies. I am a big girl and I will pay for myself. Sounds like things need to be re-organized.
Misean:
Yeah, cuz illegal aliens from 3rd world central and south american countries, with there ability to squirt out anchor babies is a real threat in Switzerland.
^^^
High point of the American Republic.
PSGirl,
I fully agree. Just pointing out that it's a bit more complex then people make it out to be. A lot of hidden subsidies and hidden costs.
"Let's stop pretending that socialized medicine is about "efficiency" or "fairness". It merely embodies the hope of every citizen that he will be able to stick his neighbor with his medical bills.
Corey"
Wrong. You have to insure everyone. Like a well balanced financial portfolio, somethings go up, other go down, but, eventually everyone:
1) Gets sick.
2) Dies.
It all balances out.
The poor care, long wait times, in some systems are just a function of that system. Just like "Hope is not a plan", I believe that "Anecdote is not data", look at Germany. Some free market principals are needed to direct the balance of care. When the older guy needs a hip replacement, and can afford the private doc, he gets it done. When the other guy needs one and can't afford it, he waits.
How did we become a nation so divided by income level? I made better choices and make more so screw you if you can't cover the basics. Your to blame for my high taxes and the credit crisis. Immigrants took my job and drive up costs. I could go all day. But I won't.
I see a future where we can come together and help each other survive or we start killing each other. I'll be helping my neighbors. I'll expect them to help themselves and me but my requirements of my 72 year old neighbor will be minimal. I'll share my food with her.I'll help protect her property. Know what she's done for me? Smiled, wished me a good day. Told me my kids were cute. She's my neighbor. Darwin be damned.
Corey, psgirl, Dr dd. Misean is dope, dk.
See the humanity of your neighbors and don't assume stereotypes when you look at someone. I'm clicking off and will allow myself the last word here.
If Ford, GM and Chrysler no longer exist, what in the heck is NSACAR going to do? Somehow I can't picture Junior trying to slide out of a mini cooper.
Uffish, that is a lovely utopian thought, but no.
I take excellent care of myself by eating well and doing vigorous exercise.
There is no way I should have to pay for someone who abuses their body.
I will be happy to pay taxes though to help people who are TRULY down on their luck.
But if you are able bodied, forget it.
Somehow, there seem to be folks here who think that it makes sense for people not to see doctors regularly, so that they can grow old and be sicker than they otherwise would, and that, when they do finally seek medical care that they cant afford, that the costs will somehow magically disappear. You think you dont want to pay to keep these people well....um, exactly who do you think pays for them when they aren't well? Trust me, they will get sick. We all do. But those who dont catch illnesses early end up much sicker, and end up costing much much more to the system. That is what I mean by efficiency.
Not treating people through their life means a higher fully discounted lifetime cost of medical care. That is not an efficient outcome. Now the next question is, why have you decided to make this tradeoff? If you feel that people dont have the right to healthcare, why do we let them in the system later when they are sick? Why not just say cant pay, cant have care, right? But we dont do that, we all pay anyway.
So why does that make sense? It can only make sense if you think that somehow that poor decisions is worthwhile because of a question of fairness, as in, who pays for that expensive care. So Im asking, who do you think pays for it?
Getting caught up.
WTF, yesterday it was 200k was the consensus, today it's 250-300k jobs lost? Is this just a way for them to spin a 240k job loss as better than expected when it would be worse than expected yesterday?
Or are these people just making it up as they go.
Seasonal holiday hiring is dead here. Not a one is actively recruiting for new positions. The waitress today said that she is working 9 shifts a week just to make end meet when a year ago 3 shifts made decent money.
I expect the full force of the U3 and U6 to show up no later than January as not only little to no seasonal help gets hired, but further reductions in regular staffing show up. This, of course, will only add to the downward spiral. We will be lucky to be on the upswing by early 2010.
zoom,
"'ll expect them to help themselves and me but my requirements of my 72 year old neighbor will be minimal."
So will I. How this equates into the Federal gov't putting a gun to my head and stealing from me is an equivalent...I don't know.
Knurd!
Nostrovia,
"Health insurance is affordable and available to those who choose to purchase it.
Corey"
Sorry to disagree again but it is not available to everyone.
I had BCBS COBRA coverage for 18 months, reapplied for coverage when it ran out and was turned down twice for "chronic condition". I am very healthy, over 40 and had a back spasm ER visit once in those 18 months.
Kaiser in the PNW is the biggest regional provider. Their docs are payed a lower salary to work a set number of hours while their malpractice, family health care and pension are well compensated. It's a model that works for a lot of docs and patients, and its profitable for the system. My Dad had it in lew of Medicare and it served him very well.
Brontide:
We will be lucky to be on the upswing by early 2010.
I will put this in the hope chest along with CR waiting to see the Fed start to shrink its balance sheet. Stuff I really hope comes true, but don't anticipate celebrating.
Uffish, you still have no coverage?
Corey
"I am: 41-year old man. Oregon/Washington. Kasier "gold" plan"
Well, HELL! THAT explains it! With 9 months of gray skies and rain, NOBODY gets old...they all blow their brains out from depression....no need for "late life med. care"....G.
Geoff,
"Not treating people through their life means a higher fully discounted lifetime cost of medical care. That is not an efficient outcome. Now the next question is, why have you decided to make this tradeoff? If you feel that people dont have the right to healthcare, why do we let them in the system later when they are sick? Why not just say cant pay, cant have care, right? But we dont do that, we all pay anyway."
Pay anyway...that is wrong. F them. I don't really care. Die MF die I say.
YouTube -
And no, I don't really give a shite.
Knurd!
Nostrovia,
When Goldman comes out with these statements, like the one about $200 oil, all I can think of is....
"unless that crop report....god help us! I told you we shouldn't have committed everything you asshole!"
"You idiot! Get back out there and sell sell!!! "
"Turn those machines back on, turn those machines back on!!!"
"Sorry to disagree again but it is not available to everyone.
I had BCBS COBRA coverage for 18 months, reapplied for coverage when it ran out and was turned down twice for "chronic condition". I am very healthy, over 40 and had a back spasm ER visit once in those 18 months.
Kaiser in the PNW is the biggest regional provider. Their docs are payed a lower salary to work a set number of hours while their malpractice, family health care and pension are well compensated. It's a model that works for a lot of docs and patients, and its profitable for the system. My Dad had it in lew of Medicare and it served him very well."
I was on Blue Cross HMO in Northern California until every decent Gastro-Enterologist started refusing HMO. I tried a couple of HMO Gastro Specialist and was blown away by how bad their care was.
So I switched over to a PPO. It was the only way I could find a decent Gastro Specialist. $1400/month for coverage. 15% out of pocket for each procedure.
Colonoscopy costs me $350 out of pocket each year.
Blood test $30 out of pocket every 90 days.
Followup visit $40 out of pocket every 90 days.
Generic medication $10/mos.
I get great care for my condition but I have NO idea how lower to middle class wage earners would be able to afford care for any ongoing condition.
Geoff,
I agree that the system we have in the U.S. is not very efficient from a financial standpoint and, frankly, it probably isn't very efficient from a medical standpoint either. I don't know enough to evaluate it.
But I can surmise that the new administration is not going to make a paradigm shift in healthcare reform one of its highest priorities. There are just too many more immediate problems that will need attention.
So Misean is safe for a few more years.
@corey
I think it's myopic of you to claim health insurance is cheap. It's only cheap until it's not and that could happen at a moments notice.
Until we get it through our heads that for profit insurance is the wrong model we can't fix the problems that businesses and Americans face. When an insurance company can deny as "not medically necessary" childbirth ( while sorted out within a few months, their first response was denial of coverage ) we know there is a serious problem.
sportsfan, totally agree. We blew that money. The bankers remaining rich was way more important than having a healthier populus. We didnt have money for sooooo many things, until we needed to find that money for something we should have never needed it for. It's a pretty disgusting situation.
sportsfan,
And you arrogantly assume I have health insurance...Nice.
Knurd!
Nostrovia,
PSgirl writes:
Right Corey. I am almost 50 with a cancer diagnosis and mine is still only $411.00 per month.
I keep hearing that health care for a family of 4 is 12K per year and I think WTF are they talking about.
PSgirl | 11.05.08 - 11:14 pm | #
Wow! Where are you getting that? I'm paying $1020/month for two of us (40s)
Geoff,
Amazing, isn't it, how the Bushies could come up with so much cash so quickly for their good buddies. It's very depressing, but above my pay grade.
BTW, Misean, Switzerland has lots of illegal immigrants. Just sayin' ...
Europe in general has lots of illegals. The U.S. is not alone and the measures taken in both areas are nothing to be proud of.
I have but not too many options with reasonable coverage once you are in your fifties. It was easy before.
RE | Homepage | 11.05.08 - 11:34 pm | #
Yup - been there.
Also as for PSGirl's experience - try CHANGING policies once diagnosed... not always easy or even possible.
Now some states force insurer's to cover PECs some don't. In Minnie where I live we now force companies to cover PECs and at a 'reasonable' rate - meaning for somebody like you to get a $400/month rate, it would have to be HIGHLY subsidized considering the risk factor.
In the past Minnie didn't force insurers to cover PECs and they put a rider on about half my wife's body and still charged us a ton (about $8K/yr family of four $1000 each deductible circa 1990). Ouch.
My guess is anyone paying $400/month with a diagnosis of cancer isn't being fully 'risk rated'. I don't care what the prognosis is either - enough weird things happen w/ cancer and they are all real expensive that it would have to subsidized somehow by somebody. Insurers don't care about your outcome just the 'cost outcome'.
@ earlier Q. re CDS:
DTCC lists 64 bil gross, 4 bil net on GM, 100 bil gross, 4.4 bil net on GMAC
Not sure how to find out who sold or who bought, or if if that info is even public or meant to be secret.
"And you arrogantly assume I have health insurance...Nice.
Knurd!
Nostrovia,"
Nice, no insurance. How do you plan to pay for that out of the blue accident? Or out of the blue emergency room visit.
Oh yeah let me guess you'll be chomping at the bit eager to pay that 10k/day charge just for the hospital room right?
You won't be whining for a handout, or filing BK right? You'll be moral enough to setup a 30 year payment plan right? And pay every single penny so that tax-payers don't pick up the bill?
Misean,
I swear that I'm not sure you understand even half of my comments here.
I'm not assuming you have health insurance, much less doing so in an arrogant manner.
I was making fun of your 'put a gun to my head to pay for medical care for others' comment following my statement that I don't think the new administration will get there for a few years.
Hence, your safe for a few years if the government isn't putting a gun to your head to make you pay for other people.
Now don't accuse me of ridiculing you in this comment.
Same smiley face means I'm smiling.
Corey writes:
sportsfan writes:
zoom,
If your Kaiser is like my Kaiser, the premiums manage to increase precisely 15% per annum.
This has not been my experience.
Last year: $289/month
This year: $296/month
Increase: 2.4%
I am: 41-year old man. Oregon/Washington. Kasier "gold" plan.
Corey | Homepage | 11.05.08 - 11:34 pm | #
California Kaiser:
2007 - $760
2008 - $1020
2009 - I'll find out in about 1 month
Pissed off in California,
You're snarky enough, but you don't know me...nor how I'm financed. Please save your "I'm as poor as dirt" finances to yourself. I'll be fine dude. You, on the other hand might look into the concept of saving.
Just sayin'...loser.
Knurd!
Nostrovia,
PSgirl writes:
Uffish, that is a lovely utopian thought, but no.
I take excellent care of myself by eating well and doing vigorous exercise.
-I ran 7 marathons in the past 5 years.
There is no way I should have to pay for someone who abuses their body.
-Agree, but eventually we all wear out, get sick and die.
I will be happy to pay taxes though to help people who are TRULY down on their luck.
-You, through your premiums or lower wages from your employer, pay for the down trodden via higher regional medical costs. The hospitals are going broke because too many people use the ER for their primary care.
But if you are able bodied, forget it.
PSgirl
No, I currently do not have health insurance, can afford it, can't get the plan the coverage. I'm self employed and will likely look for a group job to get the coverage as I'm rolling the dice right now.
Appreciate your and Corey's thoughts.
"sportsfan writes:
Misean,
I swear that I'm not sure you understand even half of my comments here.
I'm not assuming you have health insurance, much less doing so in an arrogant manner.
I was making fun of your 'put a gun to my head to pay for medical care for others' comment following my statement that I don't think the new administration will get there for a few years.
Hence, your safe for a few years if the government isn't putting a gun to your head to make you pay for other people.
Now don't accuse me of ridiculing you in this comment.
Same smiley face means I'm smiling.
This issue just pisses me off.
I should just log it and go to sleep.
Mostrovia,
Comrade...you have some good things to say sometimes, but on some topics, such as medicine, you are incredibly uninformed. And it always seems that when you dont know the facts, you make up for it by being personally abusive. I dont find that it makes you very appealing. But you are right, on this one, you should log it and sleep to fight another day.
"You're snarky enough, but you don't know me...nor how I'm financed. Please save your "I'm as poor as dirt" finances to yourself. I'll be fine dude. You, on the other hand might look into the concept of saving.
Just sayin'...loser."
Do I sound like I need to save anymore? Unlike you, I gave specifics on what health-care costs and proved I could afford it.
Like I said retard as long as you state unequivocally that you're fine with spending 250k easy out of pocket for that out of the blue accident/illness then be my guest and don't carry health-care.
Some how people always talk big until it comes time to pay the piper.
Geoff,
I'm actually quite informed.
Those I debate are not.
Think not...
Describe the evolution of insurance in this country over the last 100 years. I can do it from memory...can you?
It is the arrogance of the likes of you that make me bow out. Which I'm doing now.
G'night.
Knurd!
Nostrovia,
So what drives teh medical system costs?
-Spot on. Malpractice insurance is very expensive, and your premiums go up if you have claims against you.
-Yes again. It's the obese, diabetic hypertensive that survives his first heart attack at age 50 the costs the system so much.
-Give that man a prize. Annual physical exams detect all kinds of asymptomatic conditions that kill you very slowly at great expense via frequent doc visits, meds, labs, imaging, think about the hypertensive that slowly dies from small strokes, renal failure and heart failure.
-Very true. But there are now checks in place to try and limit the slow lingering hospital deaths that are so expensive. Advanced directives are required at the time of hospital admission; identification of health care power of attorney at admission; Hospitalists that are trained to administer appropriate care to dying patients and know how to talk to families about futile care.
-See above.
homedad43
Just went through this with my 85 yo Dad. I was HPA and it was a bitch to get my 5 sibs on board with the fact that he was dying and we all just needed to be there with him.
Excellent questions as usual homedad43.
Uffish:
Sorry about your dad. And simple reality is that not everyone can process the situation the same way. My dad underwent stuff he detested just to placate my mother. Didn't mean a damned thing in the end...
Yes, I know the system from multiple angles since wife is hospice physician and I'm a cancer survivor.
Take care.
@ homedad43 | Homepage | 11.06.08 - 12:26 am | #
Actually HD43 - the only one of those five that is really significant is #5 - greater belief & faith in procedures than is justified by outcomes. The others drive cost but nothing like #5.
1 - tests, yes they cost something buy CYA is a conservative sacred cow that just doesn't hold water. I've read stuff all over on this and you can 'prove' it both ways which means it isn't provable. Dr's I know concur - it's mostly a non-issue.
2 - lifestyle... healthy lifestyle delays but does not prevent cost. If you have a bad lifestyle you get sick & die early, good lifestyle you get sick & die later - either way you get sick & die.
3 - early preventive care vs no prevention, see #2 above... similar situation - mostly effects when you pay not how much (die young or still get old & eventually die)
4 End of life care - yup happens but very often folks don't know when that is. My Aunt had a heart transplant in her 60s - unthinkable at the time... what a waste people said. She died in her 80s. Lived a full quarter of her life w/ somebody else's heart. In most cases its timing again - when will you cost a lot not so much will you or won't you cost a lot.
But #5 is the killer - modern medicine is EXTREMELY capital intensive on top of labor intensive - so you have high fixed & high variable cost... many of the procedures & equipment has 'marginal' effectiveness - or at least marginal for a lot of the 'candidates' that get the procedures. Yet many people demand the procedures - both early & late.
Ration care more aggressively throughout life and you greatly reduce the demand for both labor & capital and drive down cost A LOT.
Dad lived a long happy life. Bowled twice a week, played table tennis twice a week, lived alone, drove a car and had hundreds of his best friends at his memorial. I just made sure his wishes of no life support were met.
Hospice physicians and oncologists are a special group of people. I have the capacity to listen to people and offer comfort, but ultimately it's the family members that need the most care, and that is really tough. Hats off to Dr. homedad43.
Uffish we did hospice for my mom - similar except the 'hundreds' of her friends didn't wait for the memorial - they flew in to see her at the hospice as she was dieing. Her wits were still with her so it turned into a week long party celebrating her life. Craziest thing I ever saw.
Respectively disagree on a couple points:
"#1 - tests, yes they cost something buy CYA is a conservative sacred cow that just doesn't hold water. I've read stuff all over on this and you can 'prove' it both ways which means it isn't provable. Dr's I know concur - it's mostly a non-issue"
-"Anecdote is not data", but speaking from my experience, I covered the ER 7 nights in a row, once a month for a year in radiology residency. Would read about 50 head to toe CT's on MVA patients because the ER docs "had to rule out ___" It was so tedious looking a normal 20-30 yo drunks all night, but usually around 4 AM you would find something life threatening. 50 x $5,000 x 4 (head, chest, abdomen, pelvis) = $1 million billable to their insurance company or medicare/medicaid or the patient (lost revenue, hospital goes broke on non-insured).
"Ration care more aggressively throughout life and you greatly reduce the demand for both labor & capital and drive down cost A LOT."
-Preventive medicine is the key, require annual physicals for all adults, reward or financially punish patients that meet/don't meet their health care goals; weight loss, stop smoking, sugar/blood pressure under control...
Dad had a huge stroke, brother found him the next day. Had a lot of visitors in the hospital but I found that they were mostly his closest friends, most other seniors don't like going to see folks in the hospital.
Glad to hear your mom had a chance to yuck it up with the old pals one more time.
Preventive medicine is the key, require annual physicals for all adults, reward or financially punish patients that meet/don't meet their health care goals; weight loss, stop smoking, sugar/blood pressure under control...
Uffish Thought | 11.06.08 - 1:24 am | #
First off I understand the CYA thing - most practitioners I know (and I know a lot) tell me the their internal QA/QC systems are so regimented by 'best practices' that they don't over or under test - they strictly test 'to script' where CYA is probably embedded in the logic but only one factor - these folks aren't at crappy hospitals either - think Mayo Clinic in MN & large city uni 'teaching' hospitals.
As per preventive - I agree it improves the quality of an individual's life BUT from a cost perspective it isn't 'helpful' over the long haul - here is why:
Say you get good preventive & have a test that finds cancer early when you are say 50 - if not treated you die then & expensive , if treated and you live to 80 THEN die of something else nasty (like another cancer)... it didn't avoid the cost, it delayed the cost.
Even if your preventative actions REDUCE the threats when you are young - not just discover them in time - you still get old & die expensive.
The insurers are KEENLY aware of this so aren't falling all over themselves to offer up preventative care free (if it really saved them money - they would).
Dryfly; Sorry if I miss-stated above, we do agree on the same point, #5 is a huge part of the problem.
A $2 million scanner is run by a $50/hr tech 24/7. Those studies get read by an over paid doc, 40/day.
A modern scanner will produce 2,000 images per study. A lot gets missed, but it's all about production. You are monitored and measured in every conceivable way as all the studies are accessed, dictated and signed off electronically, "Ahh, it took Dr Thought 10 minutes to read that chest CT, cut him loose, he is too slow."
@ Uffish Thought | 11.06.08 - 1:44 am | #
I hear ya - I'm working on parts right now for a new med device of some kind. Just the housing (plastic - size of a paper shredder) is going to cost something like $1000 EACH - we aren't even talking the guts of the machine and the IP used. And that's raw mfg cost - not price. Imagine how much it will be marked up before YOU see one.
Uffda indeed.
Dryfly; Agree, a lot of preventive care is misdirected and expensive.
But there is an economic and moral argument to be made that goes something like this:
1)Keep people healthy and they contribute to society in a productive way.
2)We can't and won't just let people die.
There is a lot of evidence that mammograms reduce morbidity and mortality. But at some point, around age 70, the cost/benefit goes too large to justify it. Try and tell a "healthy 70 yo" we are not screening you for breast cancer any more, you will lose all your patients.
Comment made earlier that unless you are plugged into the system ( i.e. know the players), you will be forever doomed to second, third or ninth tier care is true. If/when we go to nationalized/universal/gubmint care onlyl makes that more so.
I have personal experience with this, and know this to be true.
dryfly: sorry.
Sports Guy Lafleur: Just got off the phone with great friend. Had chest pain, went to the ER, found a mass in his lung all on Tuesday. I've spent 4 hours on the phone with him today going over his studies and telling him what to expect next and what his options are.
I totally agree, it's so easy to get lost trying to navigate this incredibility complex system.
There is probably is an opportunity for a private health care consultant to work with clients, at their expense, to expedite care, lobby insurance companies for benefits and do a lot of hand holding when necessary.
Along with the drug companies, all the medical device manufacturers have highly paid reps that spend all day waiting to talk to docs for 5 minutes about their latest product. These reps are all smart, good looking, personable and make big salaries to sell plastic catheters that cost $25k each. Again, billed back to the insurance company, medicare, or non-paying patient.
Those lobbying groups that are going to be hard to shake loose from the system, just like big pharma, when/if we go national.
But like medicare and drugs, generics work just a well. People should be allowed to pay out of pocket for the good stuff if they want it, i.e. controlled release drugs.
shouldn't they update spell checkers to accept 'Obama?'
Reminds me of the newspaper article back in the 1980s when non-human spell checkers were new and the term "black" was falling out of favor with the PC crowd. The paper published a retraction along the lines of, 'We regret yesterday's article informing you that such and such a company was in the "African-American."'
What's a republic?
C kidbuck, that's too good.
Just like the voice dictation system I use, I end up spending as much time reporting as I do editing. The system likes to type "per year" when I say "period"
"Follow up in one month per year" just doesn't cut it.
Which is the best Lee Iacocca quote?
If you can find a better car, buy it. or Let Chrysler die with dignity.
YouTube
- 2008 Lee Iacocca Tribute Promo
What's a republic?
"From DowJones: GM Executive: Next 100 Days Critical For GM, US Auto Industry"
Can't overproduction be cured with overconsumption by deficit spending we can believe in?
This is sad. Ford and GM are toast and it truly is sad to watch these American icons fall. Both companies built a few thousand TBF (Ford) and TBM (GM) Avengers in WW2, one of which was flown by George HW Bush. These planes were used to destroy Japan. Now, Japan is destroying their makers. We have been living on borrowed time for so long and the sands in the hour glass have finally run out.
If we're trading anecdotes about how horrible socialized medicine is, then I may as well say that I live in Canada and my experience (and those of my friends/family) has been uniformly superb. I've known three people who've been way sick (kidney transplant, heart surgery, and some colon stuff due to Krohn's), and their care has been uniformly superb and timely... no complaints. My own (fortunately less dramatic) experiences have been uniformly excellent as well.
Waiting times for non-life threatening chronic conditions (like hip replacements) suck, it's a known problem here (that is almost unheard of in Europe apparently... not all socialized medicine is the same).
12k a year sounds like quite a nut, there's no way a family of four pays that much in extra taxes.
I too, am wondering if Misean, who is so proud of the fact that "he has no health insurance", has a million bucks put aside to cover his serious car accident care.
If not, and if he is not planning to bleed to death on the emergency room steps after a car accident, then he DOES have medical insurance, but finds it ideologically convenient not to acknowledge that fact.
dryfly said sagely, as he tends to,
Even if your preventative actions REDUCE the threats when you are young - not just discover them in time - you still get old & die expensive.
The insurers are KEENLY aware of this so aren't falling all over themselves to offer up preventative care free (if it really saved them money - they would).
yup, we all get old and die
life expectancy figures make us all go, oh shit, i wanna make 83.4 or whatever the latest life expectancy figure is (perhaps the defining boomer bubble, has been going up for more than 100 years now for us westerners, where's the limit) and if it looks like i ain't gonna make 83.4 there better be a phalanx of doctors there to get me past the magic number
if we all stagger over the line, it'll blow up all the insurance companies predicated on just half or less of us doing it
i'm still smoking and drinking and hoping the grim reaper gets me early so's the rest of you have a mathematical chance of making 83.4 or whatever the latest number is...
cheers
Yeah, in the next 100 days it will be critical to get a handgun. Does anyone have some suggestions? I'm looking at the Ruger SR9. It's Made in the USA. Someone told me that guns are a better investment than gold.