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Recent Recommendations
I like Baywatch better than Fed Watch.
Dr. Duy offers some suggestions for policy makers
That's Professor Duh to you.
15:30 *PAULSON SAYS MARKET TURMOIL WON'T ABATE UNTIL HOUSING REBOUNDS
And then he apologized by returning the $700 billion and then falling on his sword?
I want my money back. No, seriously. I want my money back. It isn't like I was given a choice or even convinced this was a good idea or that there were no other options. I was robbed and I want reparations.
what better area to invest than in the infrastructure of the U.S.A.?
You mean besides the auto makers?
SERENTIY NOW
Nemo writes:
I like Baywatch better than Fed Watch.
Did you have a "thing" for David Hasselhoff?
Here I'll help you out - you'll have to go to Lefty's for the lube...
what about investing in money, thats what the peoples crave.
oops, Serenity Now and Festivus for the rest of us
Actually I am more partial to his recent work.
Thread music.
Infrastructure spending -- Amen.
"Dr. Duy offers some suggestions for policy makers"
Ain't gonna happen.
In order to discuss where 'investment' should go, don't we have to have money? Our sheets have more red than the hampers at Mount Holyoke, we can't sell more debt, and our ability to produce something of value is limited to mathematical magic tricks.
So, OK, let's invest in infrastructure. With what?
No food on the island. We can plan our next meal until we starve.
Investment in infrastructure is the ONLY real solution to this problem. It's the only productive use of our money in this environment. And it's more than just a band-aid.
"I was robbed and I want reparations."
That ain't gonna happen either. Suck it up baby.
I think we already built and invested in all the infrastructure we're gonna get for the next 20 years.
Just waiting to find out if Guam is gonna be called "New Taiwan" or Hawaii/California are gonna be called "China East".
WTF?
"We spent decades pretending that the relentless focus on producing nontradable goods and relying on a ballooning current account deficit to hide our lack of productive capacity was an appropriate policy approach."
... but then ...
"Roads, bridges, channels, etc. you name it, there is an opportunity."
Roads, bridges, channels, etc. are not tradable goods. Was he hoping we weren't paying attention?
if we got to work on a 'Great Wall of California' wouldn't that kill two birds with one stone?
I think the biggest potential for policy error lies in maintaining the delusion that preventing housing, and by extension, consumer spending, from adjusting is central to fixing the nations economy.
How un-American!
There is no shortage of sectors of the economy that offer opportunities for investment. In so many ways, we are running on the fumes of the infrastructure investment made by the last generation. Roads, bridges, channels, etc. you name it, there is an opportunity. Or human capital, via education?...
Not speedy enough for got to have it now Americans.
Time and pain is what its going to take.
Unfortunately all my feelers are saying that "infrastructure" is code for transit and other California High Speed Rail type boondoggles.
Infrastructure? Wouldn't a private entrepreneur be better equipped to invest that money? Why take money away from him and give it to some crazy bureaucrat with no skin in the game?
GE Gets FDIC Debt Guarantee
On November 12, 2008, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (the FDIC) approved the application of General Electric Capital Corporation (GE Capital) for designation as an eligible entity under the FDICs Temporary Liquidity Guarantee Program (debt guarantee program). Under the FDICs interim rules for the debt guarantee program
Here's a sample list of Paulson's questionaire for potential TARP receipients:
1.Is gambling a requirement at your job?
2.Did gambling affect your reputation?
3.Have you ever felt remorse after gambling?
4.Did you ever gamble to get money with which to pay debts or otherwise solve financial difficulties?
5.Did gambling cause an increase in your ambition or efficiency?
6.After losing did you feel you must return as soon as possible and win back your losses?
7.After a win did you have a strong urge to return and win more?
8.Did you often gamble until your last dollar was gone?
9.Did you ever borrow to finance your gambling?
10.Have you ever sold anything to finance gambling?
11.Did gambling make you careless?
12.Did you ever gamble longer than you had planned?
13.Have you ever committed, or considered committing, an illegal act to finance gambling?
WTF is Obama doing by not having smart people like this on his new team????? Xerox??
In other areas of concern: Sony Corp., the world's second-biggest maker of consumer electronics, slumped 7.3 percent after U.S. retailer Best Buy Co. cut its forecast on a spending slowdown, and the yen rose to a two-week high. Advantest Corp., the largest maker of memory-chip testers, lost 6.1 percent after Intel Corp. cut its fourth- quarter sales forecast. Mizuho Financial Group Inc. sank 4.7 percent after a person familiar with the plan said the bank may sell 300 billion yen ($3.2 billion) in preferred shares.
The Nikkei 225 Stock Average declined 351.72, or 4 percent, to 8,343.79 as of 9:52 a.m. in Tokyo. The broader Topix index fell 30.44, or 3.5 percent, to 844.79, with almost nine stocks slumping for each that rose.
Comrade Peronista --
Wouldn't a private entrepreneur be better equipped to invest that money?
Yes, but the private entrepreneurs have no money and cannot borrow for 30 years at 4% interest.
Why take money away from him
You seem to suffer from the delusion that Congress is spending our money. They aren't; they are spending our descendants' money.
Our money was spent back in the 80s.
Hope this helps clarify things for you.
rps,
Good stuff!
Comrade Peronista writes:
Infrastructure? Wouldn't a private entrepreneur be better equipped to invest that money?
That is exactly why private capital cannot be lured into transit and other infrastructure boondoggles.
Don't get me wrong. Private investment is salivating at the opportunity to administer capital infrastructure but that isn't what's on the table.
After the government blows a few trillion bucks in infrastructure, will that make housing prices go up?
No.
And what is infrastructure, anyway? In practice, infrastructure seems to mean "all the crap that the private sector thought were worthless projects to begin with." Windmill farms. Bridges to nowhere. Freeways to ghost towns in the outer suburbs. Digging holes and filling them up again!
What about building a system of roads for exclusive use of trucks so normal automobiles can feel at ease and welcome on the Interstates? I parallel system of truck highways (in crucial areas) would be a 1000% welcome.
after the Great Wall of CA is complete, we can send in Snake Plissken to retrieve Rob Dawg. For sweet mercy!
Erm,
Well besides the fact that the gov't has no money to do this, as has been pointed out,
"In so many ways, we are running on the fumes of the infrastructure investment made by the last generation. Roads, bridges, channels, etc. you name it, there is an opportunity."
You want the politicians who build bridges to no where doing this? IIRC there is more freeway spending per capita in Robert Byrd's West Virginia than any other state. Think about that. You think Obama's election is gonna change that? Koolaide bill $50000. Thank you, come again.
Nostrovia,
Maybe they can start by finishing the Big Dig in Boston. That seems like a pretty smooth operation worthy of more public funds.
Roads, bridges, channels, etc. are not tradable goods. Was he hoping we weren't paying attention? Rob McMillin,
Ahem....state tollways, bridges, airports, etc... are being leased to foreign companies. Chicago Skyway - leased. Indiana tollroads- leased. Chicago Midway airport - leased.
Infrastructure meaning roads, bridges, water & sewers to properly service sprawling housing developments?
Three questions:
1. What is the right kind of infrastructure for new economy that has fundamentally shifted away from consumer spending?
2. Can we afford any infrastructure spending with +$10 trillion of debt?
3. Will we hire foreign firms to supply said infrastructure? (If your curious check out the foreign ownership of US cement supply?
Anyone in Beantown want to chime in on the success of the Big Dig?
The leasing of the Indiana Toll Road represented the largest privatization of an existing U.S. highway. The Spanish-Australian consortium Cintra-Macquarie delivered in June in exchange for the right to run the 157-mile highway and collect tolls until 2081
It's quite pointless to rail at the idea of spending on roads, etc. There is no reason it need be badly done. The Interstate system built after WWII was done very well. What is needed is rapid employment, whether the fat cats like it or not. And it will come; the public will demand it and the public seems to have reasserted itself by electing Obama. You know the commie/socialist. Afford it? Silly question. What we couldn't afford but went ahead anyway to please Israel was the Iraq war and the continuing war on "terror" which is in fact simply Muslim liberation.
infrastructure for manufacturing and exports.
China's doing it. Maybe we can outsource it.
Currently Smoking Cannabis writes:
Anyone in Beantown want to chime in on the success of the Big Dig?
Currently Smoking Cannabis
I grew up there. My mom lives on the Cape. Are you serious about the success?
It's a catastrophe. It's about a decade behind schedule.
Geez, even on CR, nobody can get past the "real estate" thing.
Real estate costs too much. it's too much of a tax on future generations.
One part of that do you NOT understand?
Jesus christ. I'm off to kinky group sex, screw this stupidity.
I think most Americans would prefer the money be spent on improving the USA and not to export stuff to others.
Rob, funny, you want reparations. I would be happy if they just stopped phucking with things.
A book for your considered consideration . . .
Too Much of a Good Thing: Why Health Care Spending won't Make Us Sick
The conventional wisdom is that runaway health care costs pose a major long-term threat to the economy of the United States. Government statistics show that those costs have been increasing faster than the overall inflation rate for decades. According to recent estimates, in the near future, health care could account for as much as 25 percent of the nation's gross domestic product. In this book, Charles R. Morris argues that increased spending on health care in and of itself may not be harmful to the economy. Morris makes the case that while aggregate health care spending will climb as the population ages and lifespans increase, the costs of many medical services will actually decline as productivity improves in ways that statistics fail to adequately measure. Morris argues that, if higher health care spending coincides with an improved quality of life for more Americans, along with increasing numbers of highly compensated jobs in the medical sector, the nation may be better off. AUTHOR BIO: Charles R. Morris is the author of many widely acclaimed books, on topics including investment markets, computers, and the Catholic church. He was for many years managing partner of a consulting firm specializing in the financial-services and investment-banking industries.
Do we want to continue to build highways if there's no gas in 30 years?
You build now, what you want to see in 30, 40 and 50 years. Why more of the same?
What about water infrastructure? Can we tunnel some good fresh water to SoCal?
Goldman Sachs and Loop Capital Markets as "cofinancial advisors" to assist in evaluating the sale of a long-term concession and lease of Chicago Skyway.
Chicago has leased its Skyway to an Australian-Spanish firm for nearly $2 billio
"“There is no shortage of sectors of the economy that offer opportunities for investment."
Expenditure and investment are not the same thing.
Broward: Two hands, a DVD and a warm chicken breast is not really considered 'group sex.
Addendum - I ain't Charles Morris.
Morocco Bama,
"China's doing it. Maybe we can outsource it."
Perhaps the news reports from China about the gov't's fear of rioting have not yet reached your intertube screens.
Nostrovia,
CSC --
I lived in Boston for years. When I got there, the Big Dig was supposed to open "next year" at a total cost of $5 billion or so. It opened 12 years later at a final tab of $15+ billion.
Know how much of that was paid for by the Federal Government? 85%. Thank you, Senator Kennedy!
A friend and I once calculated how thickly you could pave 7 miles of toad in gold for that price...
A friend had connections in the project, so I got to take a special tour once. Walked on the surface of the bridge (which you can no longer do), etc. It was impressive, but for $15 billion, it ought to be.
I moved away three years ago. Shortly thereafter, the sub-standard construction killed somebody.
That pretty much sums it up.
"...in exchange for the right to run the 157-mile highway and collect tolls until 2081"
But by 2081 the profits will be enjoyed by chimpanzee-pighuman chimeras and robots.
Er, "7 miles of road", I meant.
What an embarrassing typo.
w writes:
What about water infrastructure? Can we tunnel some good fresh water to SoCal?
That would be nice:
County bracing for another dry winter» Ventura County Star
Pavel Chichikov,
"But by 2081 the profits will be enjoyed by chimpanzee-pighuman chimeras and robots."
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
That's good.
Knurd!
Nostrovia,
I'm wondering if there's anyone with some ideas for solutions that do not involve more welfare.
Glad to hear it, Nemo. I was wondering about paving toads in gold- "Is he thinking skinny toad-roads? Toad roadkill goldplated like baby shoes are bronzed?"
Perhaps the news reports from China about the gov't's fear of rioting have not yet reached your intertube screens.
Oh no, I've been predicting that for quite some time. More males than females equals trouble when the economy goes south.
No fears here in the good ol USofA, though. The Chinese need Football, Baseball, Basketball and Golf. There will be no rioting so long as there are bread and circuses.
"Er, "7 miles of road", I meant."
And I was imagining what it would be like to gold plate thousands of toads.
See here, you can carp at and criticize the professor, but then present a constructive alternative that will help. Just don't stand there and look sour.
LowerMiddleClass, hey neighbor. I saw that article this morning. Growers are a little nervous.
Imagine. Gold paved toads.
Midway Airport is arguably one of the city of Chicagos better-run operations, offering relatively affordable flights out of a facility thats clean, efficient, and profitable to the tune of about $100 million a year. So why would the city be in such a hurry to pawn it off, railroading the $2.5 billion transaction through the City Council with little scrutiny or debate?
Mayor Daley didnt officially unveil the proposed 99-year lease of the facility until September 30 2008
It looks like a sweet deal for the leaseholders, Midway Investment and Development Company LLC, a consortium that includes Citi Infrastructure Investors, YVR Airport Services Ltd., and John Hancock Life Insurance Company.
gavashire intimated that ppt was among the departed. (gav do you get to sniff warren's shorts, pass along oblique hints) I'm considering which stage of grief would be appropriate at this stage (considering the sacks of prozac are still floating down the straits of plumbing) I go for denial. Let the buffoonery begin @ an 83'' handle. If you buy now, future returns might look good. Buy and hold,
you're lookin' at the cigar blowing up in ur hand.
Teh hororor , teh hororor!.
infrastructure, yooz doin it right!
MONORAIL, MONORAIL... MONORAIL !!!
It's like predicting a worse depression than '29. Anybody can do that. It doesn't help - and we need help, not depressants.
Currently Smoking Cannabis writes: Anyone in Beantown want to chime in on the success of the Big Dig?
dp writes: It's a catastrophe. It's about a decade behind schedule.
Wrong definition of "success". For the politically-connected contractors, a decade of extra spending is an unqualified, super-duper success.
I'll confess, I lean Demo, and see the need for public goods; but even I get chills thinking of the waste, corruption, and perks possible in poorly-executed infrastructure spending. Phony "bidding", forced use of hobbling union work rules, prioritization of worst projects first, project-gilding justified by earthquake, ADA, safety, neighborhood rules, that raise costs 10x or more.
And you wonder why I celebrated the appointment of a raptor like Rahm E. as O's Chief of Staff? Someone vicious has to cull the flock of vultures waiting to feed out there, or we otherwise kill chances of executing an underlying GOOD idea.
--
Gangistan is in disarray and Dopeland is scared.
Economists sure know how to spend future taxpayers' money. They never advocate surpluses during "strong growth" periods in the economy. Bunch of morally bankrupt agents of the Crooks with growth fetish. They are despicable.
I say, shoot'em all. One less major problem to deal with during the depression. Economists are bred with blinders and immorality.
There has been whole lot of bad breeding going on in America in recent decades. One wonders why.
Jas
There has been whole lot of bad breeding going on in America in recent decades. One wonders why.
Immigration?
I'm lying on my mattress, totally following yield, they said buy and hold, bummed.
Everybody likes 'infrastructure' till it nears their backyard. Could you even build the Golden Gate Bridge today? Hoover Dam?
We definitely need to improve our electrical grid but there are debates about that. Build your windfarms but you still have to get the power to where it is needed and that takes transmission lines that people will fight against.
Consider that were we to have a national power grid of some capacity
we could use our existing power plants
much more effectively. When it is 75 in Chicago and 100 in Dallas the power
plants in Illinois coast while those in Texas strain. Conversely a pleasant
70 in Dallas and 20 in Chicago and the opposite happens.
Be a lot more efficient and less costly if we could take advantage of our weather extremes in the US instead
of battling them.
wait erin the cnbc genius says infrastructure is the way to go. must be. in case you missed haines ripping goldman sachs the best part was the incredulous look on burnetts face as the broadside occured.
The mases are waking up to the looting and they will be angry. That will be nothing compared to the rest of the world's disgust as it boils up to the surface
Wait until Kellogg Brown and Root starts bidding on these projects. We know Obama is in their pocket.
...what better area to invest than in the infrastructure of the U.S.A.?
And by golly Obama, lets not forget about spending a shitload more on missile defense. Because according to (surprise surprise) Bush administration officials, It works!!!
Obama to be told U.S. missile defense capable, general says - CNN.com
"I'll confess, I lean Demo, and see the need for public goods; but even I get chills thinking of the waste, corruption, and perks possible in poorly-executed infrastructure spending. Phony "bidding", forced use of hobbling union work rules, prioritization of worst projects first, project-gilding justified by earthquake, ADA, safety, neighborhood rules, that raise costs 10x or more.
"And you wonder why I celebrated the appointment of a raptor like Rahm E. as O's Chief of Staff? Someone vicious has to cull the flock of vultures waiting to feed out there, or we otherwise kill chances of executing an underlying GOOD idea."
All right, if it's a good idea refine it, don't tear it down. We understand how corrupt the construction business can be. Work with it and around it. Above all - do something, just don't stand around heckling.
Why not just let home values fall to market and then rebuild from there? All these actions to support values will only further erode trust (in market pricing) and delay the eventual recovery.
San Antonio-based Zachry Construction Co., along with Cintra(Spain), received approval on June 29 2005 for a 50-year lease to build and run a toll road from Austin to Seguin for $1.3 billion.
That is part of Texas Gov. Rick Perry's vision to attract more than $80 billion in private funds for roads by 2030. He wants a new tollway from Oklahoma to Mexico and the Gulf Coast, and one from Shreveport, La., and Texarkana to Mexico. Cintra-Zachry reached a $7.2 billion deal last year to develop the project's first phase.
The road, part of state Route 91, was built and run for $130 million by California Private Transportation Company, partly owned by France-based Compagnie Financiere et Industrielle des Autoroutes. The toll road opened in 1995.
Seven years later, Orange County was looking at gridlock. But it could not build more roads because of a provision in the lease. So it bought back the lease for $207.5 million.
Chris writes:
What about building a system of roads for exclusive use of trucks so normal automobiles can feel at ease and welcome on the Interstates? I parallel system of truck highways (in crucial areas) would be a 1000% welcome.
Chris | 11.12.08 - 8:48 pm | #
Maybe you would like your own travel lane also. 1000% silly!
What about water infrastructure? Can we tunnel some good fresh water to SoCal?
Um, screw the infernal dried-up regions. If their businesses and residents want water, let them move to where the water is.
I am not sure why everyone is discussing abt infrastructure. Nthing gonna happen there.
Lets talk abt reality.
Asia (markets) is bleeding so where is this going to stop folks ?
I grew up there. My mom lives on the Cape. Are you serious about the success?
It's a catastrophe. It's about a decade behind schedule.
dp | Homepage | 11.12.08 - 8:54 pm | #
Just a tad over budget also.
rps -
Midway airport is ok once you're there. But be sure to set your GPS to 'highway only' driving to and from. Unless, of course, you have an extra $15 and are in the market for schwag weed and/or ghonnorea.
YEN AT 94 !!
THIS IS GETTING WORSE
contrast:
"By John Brinsley and Robert Schmidt Nov. 12 (Bloomberg) -- US Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson plans to use the second half of the $700 billion financial rescue program to help relieve pressures on consumer credit, scrapping an effort to buy devalued ..."
with:
"Policy would be best focused on supporting the inevitable transition away from debt-supported consumer dependent growth dynamic."
Sounds like two different opinions to me...the later will work, the former is not sustainable. It used to be that buying a car with a loan was looked down upon...as if you had no business buying something that you could not afford. Now, 99% of cars are purchased this way. We need to get away from that business model again, and return to the way it was. The government is preventing this return, because the big corps like the interest payments.
We could just desalinize. The technology is there, the money IS available (see recent giveaways), but the political will is not.
California has a monster coastline and a lot of brainpower. If we weren't worried about our spouses leaving us for a gay marriage, maybe we'd address it.
"Why not just let home values fall to market and then rebuild from there? All these actions to support values will only further erode trust (in market pricing) and delay the eventual recovery."
Some things are politically possible and some are not. If only water would run uphill and cows gave iced champagne.
Dictators with an iron grip of terror can impose their will, and not even they have ever been totally free of political forces and the demands of populace.
You may not realize how liberal and modest political control has been in the US, even in wartime.
Shnapstafarian writes:
if we got to work on a 'Great Wall of California'
finally, a real solution.
"Why not just let home values fall to market and then rebuild from there? All these actions to support values will only further erode trust (in market pricing) and delay the eventual recovery."
beacuse the whole point is to save the banks. You don;t matter
YEN AT 94 !!
Looks like 95.56 to me.
Is Anyone in here thinking Silver is getting cheap . If the gun sales are up how long till the masses load up on silver , gold ? Or does the paper market crash in December ?
latest i see is 94.790
where are you seeeing 95.5 ?
We could just desalinize.
It's an environmental nightmare that is a huge energy sink.
Pavel: Do you write anywhere else?
Re: Nikkei
Seems like they are about where you would expect after being closed for America's blood-letting.
Yen is a concern; how did it get pulled out after falling October 25? Everyone say it with me now... Rate Cut!
CR: what better area to invest than in the infrastructure of the U.S.A.?
The point; once upon a time american highways, bridges and airports built by americans and paid by american tax dollars are currently being privatized and leased to foreign companies.
95.5 is the print on bberg. Remember that is a 15 min. delay.
Pavel Chichikov --
See here, you can carp at and criticize the professor, but then present a constructive alternative that will help. Just don't stand there and look sour.
Of course infrastructure spending makes more sense than most of what the government is doing. (Investment is better than consumption is better than blowing stuff up.)
But that does not mean it is a good idea. Maybe we should let the correction happen and save our money -- well, borrowing power -- to prevent any humanitarian disaster.
I have a bad feeling that no matter how our government spends our resources today, we will come to wish we had conserved them.
Hope I am wrong.
"What would the Prime Minister do?" That's is the question.
P.S. Libor, TED, yield, etc, remainds me of a true, sad story from the old country. A guy was talking to the doctor who had just performed surgery on his mother. "How did it go?" he asks. "The surgery was a real succes" says the doctor. " How is my mom doing?. "Oh, I am sorry, but she didn't make it" answered the doctor.
Dividends and future cash flow -- future cash flow - that's all babycakes, don't talk to me about no other shit.
You can talk to me about my new favorite guitar guru, but piss off with future cash flow .. it aint there man!
Hit The Road Jack - Sungha Jung
YouTube - Hit The Road Jack - Sungha Jung
This thing is so F'd I don't even know what to say anymore.
B_R, from previous thread:
"The state pays its bills with it -- build a new road for merely the cost of the paper and ink. Or you can extend (grants / loans / gifts) to (the people / your cronies / the banking system). Maybe you could establish a "resolution trust" that you capitalize with rubber money and buy bad debt off the banks in whatever quantity pleases you.
I'm not sure quite how they pump all the tripe into circulation in Zimbabwe or places in South / Central America where currency debasement is a way of life. Presumably in those places the state spends a lot of money, hence the dissipation, and large quantities are given to friends / creditors of the throne."
The Zimbabwe system allows direct printing...like Weimar. It also is not the world's reserve currency.
And come on...You're quite bright...You KNOW you can't pave roads with paper.
Such actions would immediately blow up. And the deleveraging on Wall Street is slamming things down fast.
Nostrovia,
Going catatonic might help.
I'm going to check into that.
Nostrovia,
PCA's gift to CR... (the link)...
Well, that chart isn't his only gift to CR... but I've been going to this webpage alot with the Bloomberg futures...
Why did people build in the middle of the desert?
Getting weaned from easy credit isn't the only lifestyle change America needs. It also needs to be weaned from irrigation and water diversion.
thread music for the clarifornia toads paved in glod.
YouTube -
Re: USD/JPY
95.55/95.57 is a real-time bid/ask quote.
nikkei.net has it 20-minute delayed
. It has not moved much.
94.x was the close of the previous session.
Desalinization takes energy and, in California, that is in short supply.
I for, one and optimistic about the electric car. It is, perhaps, the easiest way to end our dependance on foreign oil but it too require ample supplies of electrical energy and a way to get that energy from power plant to local homes.
With 50% of our current electrical power coming from coal fired plants we don't have much choice but to keep coal if we are going to have electric
cars.
"What about building a system of roads for exclusive use of trucks so normal automobiles can feel at ease and welcome on the Interstates? I parallel system of truck highways (in crucial areas) would be a 1000% welcome."
No need. Re-tag the HOV's as truck and through traffic only.
FRED writes:
wait erin the cnbc genius says infrastructure is the way to go. must be. in case you missed haines ripping goldman sachs the best part was the incredulous look on burnetts face as the broadside occured.
The mases are waking up to the looting and they will be angry. That will be nothing compared to the rest of the world's disgust as it boils up to the surface
FRED | 11.12.08 - 9:08 pm | #
Fred, I noticed those folks on CNBC seem to be getting a little more concerned as their GE stock tumbles. I saw that this morning with Hanes and Burnett. Hanes seemed to really be getting pissed off as he nears retirement.
Too bad about that parabolic rise in national debt though.
I worry that once you get to the point where paying down public debt isn't even an option anymore, you have an economy that is already terminally ill and everything we do is just to maintain the illusion that it's not.
"I'll confess, I lean Demo, and see the need for public goods; but even I get chills thinking of the waste, corruption, and perks possible in poorly-executed infrastructure spending. Phony "bidding", forced use of hobbling union work rules, prioritization of worst projects first, project-gilding justified by earthquake, ADA, safety, neighborhood rules, that raise costs 10x or more."
Building a road is a real investment. The road enables people and freight to be moved where they're needed. It used to be generally understood that this kind of investment was what actually drove the long-term growth of the economy, not a bunch of zero-sum shell games. I'll take bloated, over-budget, featherbedded road projects any day over more Wall Street horseshit.
ac,
"I worry that once you get to the point where paying down public debt isn't even an option anymore, you have an economy that is already terminally ill and everything we do is just to maintain the illusion that it's not."
It hasn't been an option since Nixon pulled the Glod standard. Wasn't that the point.
Nostrovia,
I bet you would, pothead.
DCRogers - bang on. That was great.
I really like the part in the day that Paulson did his thing then the Dow lost 400, and GMAC ResCap cratered by 53%
Gotta wonder who else was blindsided when Paulson said, well, y'know those toxic assets we're supposed to buy under extant legislation weell we're not going to.
I think there will be some outfits goin "AIIIIEEEEGR FWTFWF HEEEEEEEELPDAMMIT"
CC
I love glod.
"Pavel: Do you write anywhere else?"
Yep. You can search google for Pavel Chichikov. But it's all poetry and poetry reading, except for the photography I used to do.
Pavel, have you done any porn?
Morocco Bama writes:
I bet you would, pothead.
Huh? Dude, your reading comprehension sucks.
I'm guessing you took the GMAT and not the LSAT.
yes nemo, I just logged onto to BBG and the latest is around 95s...still a bad level to be .
BTW I propose, no demand, a nationwide ultra-high-speed WIFI network.
I'm ten steps ahead of ya, CSC.
Investment in infrastructure is the answer only insofar as the improvements make transport more efficient.
Simple repair and maintenance is just routine overhead, and certainly isn't going to help us, apart from putting to work the army of unemployed.
We don't need more airport terminals, rebuilt bridges, repaved highways, new government buildings. What we need are modern-day equivalents of the Erie and Panama Canals and the transcontinental railroad, telegraph lines, etc.
Let's put our newly borrowed money into wind farms, solar panels on homes, R&D.
Otherwise, so-called investment in infrastructure is just another scheme for re-inflating a burst bubble.
MONORAIL!
YouTube -
NORML.
its whats for taxes.
Let's put our newly borrowed money into wind farms, solar panels on homes, R&D.
Well I would say stolen, but let's build something cool before anybody catches on.
NORML.
its whats for taxes.
-step_11
I'd be down with that.
What newly borrowed money? It's not like the TARP was ever our's.
Wait...dang, morocco, you were ahead of me.
Scary.
"Simple repair and maintenance is just routine overhead, and certainly isn't going to help us, apart from putting to work the army of unemployed."
It's absolutely going to help us. There's a broken-down bridge right now in the middle of Cleveland that's costing millions of dollars of lost productivity because of traffic delays. If it had been maintained or upgraded, those delays wouldn't have happened.
Of course, pretty soon nobody in Cleveland will be going to work, so it may become moot.
tax the fuck out of gas.
when oil goes to 30, gas goes to 2 buck chuck....
gas, its whats for dinner.
PAULSON SAYS MARKET TURMOIL WON'T ABATE UNTIL HOUSING REBOUNDS
Pretty shocking admission from Czar Henry.
Financial advisor Jim Willie a year ago pointed out (and I quoted him here) that as long as housing prices kept falling, the financial system would continue falling.
It was so obvious it hardly merited saying.
"Cleveland? Yes, I spent a week there one day."
ac, I do not care what they do as long as I get a free NFL package out of the deal.
In all seriousness, 700 Billion could have bought many millions of solar systems for Americans to install on their homes and businesses. Imagine the government paying for half of your system.
I agree with you 2 . It would save this country 100's of billion .It's costly to lock inmates up (33ka year). Plus it is a real ethanol crop (4x the burning power of corn ) .Also Cap lawsuits .
Okay, let me explain. Unit called the other Currently on the other thread a pothead thinking it was you. On this thread, yet another Currently pops up, so I beat Unit to the punch, and called the new Currently a pothead, but wittingly, versus unwittingly.
If only our policy makers were pursuing rational policies.
It is possible to be embarked upon a strategy without having made a strategic decision. I fear that is where we are.
Recently, on a trip to Simon Property Group, I came across this cash flow thing:
The Company has adopted NAREIT's clarification of the definition of FFO that requires it to include the effects of nonrecurring items not classified as extraordinary, cumulative effect of accounting changes, or a gain or loss resulting from the sale of previously depreciated operating properties. We include in FFO gains and losses realized from the sale of land, outlot buildings, marketable and non-marketable securities, and investment holdings of non-retail real estate. However, you should understand that FFO does not represent cash flow from operation as defined by GAAP, should not be considered as an alternative to net income determined in accordance with GAAP as a measure of operating performance, and is not an alternative to cash flows as a measure of liquidity.
safe_as _apartments,
"MONORAIL!"
WhoooHoo...DOH!
Knurd!
Nostrovia,
thanks CR - great post. The professor is much better able to articulate how I have been feeling about the unsustainability of our manufacturing / services ratio.
President Obama needs to authorize several large scale infrastructure projects - and he will - perhaps an indication of why shipping companies are on an uptick recently (with simultaneous infrastructure projects in both China and the US).
My only addition which I had mentioned here a couple of days ago would be that the machines / equipment and materials used to build be manufactured in the US. I think that is the essence of the professors solution (to structural adjustment).
Longer term, we can no longer be a nation of 80% service companies. We have to make tangible things that our population and the world consumes. I for one will be thrilled to see factories of innovation around green energy, green automobiles, infrastructure development etc.
I have a feeling that infrastructure spending is more of a Shelbyville thing.
ARW says:
"What about building a system of roads for exclusive use of trucks
Guess you haven't read about NAFTA Super Highway.
WorldNetDaily: Radio sensing stations to track traffic and cargo up and down the I-35 NAFTA Superhighway corridor are being installed by Communist China, operating through a port operator subsidiary of Hutchison Whampoa, in conjunction with Lockheed Martin and the North America's SuperCorridor Coalition, Inc.
Quietly but systematically, the Bush Administration is advancing the plan to build a huge NAFTA Super Highway, four football-fields-wide, through the heart of the U.S. along Interstate 35, from the Mexican border at Laredo, Tex., to the Canadian border north of Duluth, Minn.
A good reason Bush does not want to secure the border with Mexico may be that the administration is trying to create express lanes for Mexican trucks to bring containers with cheap Far East goods into the heart of the U.S., all without the involvement of any U.S. union workers on the docks or in the trucks.
Bush Administration Quietly Plans NAFTA Super Highway - HUMAN EVENTS
Re: "President Obama needs to authorize several large scale infrastructure projects"
What about a tunnel from New York to LA?
hangseng down more than 6%
and other markets are close to 5%
its bleeding in asia
Nah, it's more of a North Haverbrook thing.
Nostrovia,
"But that does not mean it is a good idea. Maybe we should let the correction happen and save our money -- well, borrowing power -- to prevent any humanitarian disaster."
Do nothing? Then the US really would be a banana republic.
Why would anyone need a government that does nothing?
And despite some hard feelings to the contrary, we really do need a government.
Never give up. If need be, go down fighting. Why else bother to be alive? Haven't you been in tight corners where there was no option but to go on?
I didn't vote for Obama, but I think he should be given a chance, because in fact, there is no alternative to giving him a chance.
Kona are you short Simon? Currently short Toll Brothers
w writes:
In all seriousness, 700 Billion could have bought many millions of solar systems for Americans to install on their homes and businesses. Imagine the government paying for half of your system.
I've thought the same thing whenever the costs of the Iraq War are mentioned.
Oh well, at least the bailout bill got rid of the $2k cap on residential photovoltaic systems.
I think more of these would be a worthwhile investment.
A Low Impact Woodland Home
w writes:
ac, I do not care what they do as long as I get a free NFL package out of the deal.
In all seriousness, 700 Billion could have bought many millions of solar systems for Americans to install on their homes and businesses. Imagine the government paying for half of your system.
w | 11.12.08 - 9:34 pm | #
The problem is who is going to pay for the other half?
I got one word for you-
Monorail!
"What about a tunnel from New York to LA?"
Use the tunnel from NY to the Vatican as a model. We can borrow the engineers and the blueprints.
Noble --
I for one will be thrilled to see factories of innovation around green energy, green automobiles, infrastructure development etc.
Trouble is, government-run programs have a horrible track record of producing anything of value. Most likely outcome of any spending program is that it becomes a lobbyist and special-interest feeding frenzy (cf. the automaker bail-out, which Obama says he supports, btw).
Americans learned the lessons of excessive government intervention once. The new Democratic supermajority will teach it to them again.
@Rob Dawg
"Unfortunately all my feelers are saying that "infrastructure" is code for transit and other California High Speed Rail type boondoggles."
As opposed to Big 3 auto, airlines and investment bank boondoggles?
I've been to Europe. Being able to go anywhere quickly for a reasonable fee and no requirement for a car is not necessarily a bad thing.
I deal a lot with H1-Bs and it is kind of fun to watch how long they try to go without getting a license and a car.
I dunno, I keep thinking about the Black Death, not in a sardonic way, but thinking about an overpopulated and underfed 14th century Europe as a metaphor for an overcomplex and under-producing 21st century global economy. Nowhere to go but to simply clear the table. Nothing that religion or science (or in our era, politics or finance) can do.
Pestilence, or war, is "deleveraging by other means."
Pavel Chichikov writes:
"But that does not mean it is a good idea. Maybe we should let the correction happen and save our money -- well, borrowing power -- to prevent any humanitarian disaster."
Do nothing? Then the US really would be a banana republic.
Why would anyone need a government that does nothing?
How about we cut the military budget to 1/3 of what it is presently. That'd be taking action.
Won't happen of course because the strong dollar policy is backed up by the very real threat of the world's most overbuilt military.
Mal, I guess your name suits you then.
Nemo,
President elect Obama's team mentioned recently that NO LOBBYISTS will be allowed to be a part of their transition team.
If this is an indication of how he will govern, maybe, just maybe, there is a good chance this time around - we'll do it well.
Here's the link
Obama bans lobbyists from transition - Washington Times
Kona,
"What about a tunnel from New York to LA?"
Oh Yeah! Mr Kool Aide could bust through a wall in ConGang and slam that down for a vote.
WooooHooooo!
By the time all of the remaining resources in this country were pissed down the GE/GM/General Dynamics/Boeing hole to bring this thing to the VA border we'd all be dead broke.
Damn! I like it. Blackwater would of course get a stipend to protect it from terrists.
Wooo HOO!
Knurd!
Nostrovia,
I personally vote for light rail ("monorail") as an excellent way to waste taxpayer money on infrastructure.
For example, there's a light rail system in New Jersey that cost $2.2 billion to build and runs for 20 miles. That works out to the excellent ratio of $220 million of wasted taxpayer money per mile, which is right up Paulson's alley. (Like John Stark's black hole of money.)
The best part is, even most people in Jersey don't know about it. It connects the community from nowhere, Bayonne, to the community to nowhere, North Bergen. So, it really is the light rail "bridge to nowhere."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudson-Bergen_Light_Rail
As you will see, the best part about light rail infrastructure projects is they never end. You can always keep "extending" them.
Policymakers need to come clean with the American public:
This would be some funny, funny stuff.
Yeah, but Noble, he's letting his Mother-In-Law live in the White House. What's up with that?
Trouble is, government-run programs have a horrible track record of producing anything of value.
I think NIH is an exception, but it is big pharma that often reaps the monetary benefits of cheap research by grad students and postdocs. The NIH budget is roughly $30B per year. I used to think that was a lot of money!
Policymakers need to come clean with the American public:
If they did, the Potomac would look like the Ganges.
why am I being deported? I donated moneys to morocco_bama, and I work for the city !!!
We can't get people now to work as service technicians for gas utility.
There's a shortage of coal miners too.
I just wonder if, next year, with unemployment at say 9-10%, the USG announced some major infrastructure projects how many AMERICANS are ready willing and able to go out and work outside in the hot summers and cold winters doing the iron work, lineman work, etc.
"If they did, the Potomac would look like the Ganges."
Another infrastructure project.
@Comrade Peronista
Infrastructure? Wouldn't a private entrepreneur be better equipped to invest that money?"
Great, more toll roads. A tax by any other name...
Credit enima,
I'm currently short on cash...
Comrade Misean,
Mr. Kool Aide says, Yes We Can -- to Public works projects beneath the surface!
"In all seriousness, 700 Billion could have bought many millions of solar systems for Americans to install on their homes and businesses."
Do we really want to haul other solar systems into proximity with our own solar system? Gravity is not well understood, and having several stars closer to the Sun might not be a good idea. Especially if the other solar systems have planets of there own.
Just sayin'.
Nostrovia,
Here's something I forgot to add about the Jersey monorail.
"The system serves an average 38,200 customers per weekday, and is projected eventually to expand to 100,000 daily riders when the project is completed in 2010. Much of the additional ridership is expected to come from real estate developments that are being built around the HudsonBergen Light Rail stations on vacant brownfield land and underutilized properties."
I'll keep you posted on the development of those brownfield hi-rises.
In Jersey, the brownfield lifestyle is gonna happen.
How about a tunnel from NY to Europe? maybe we could let them come over and become tourists and see how the poor live in such "depression era" conditions. Hell, they may even invest in real estate and keep some of us on as servants. They could buy it all back and sell it to the Chinese...Opps, they already made the 1st down payment.
Fighting the NAFTA Super-Highway
...Just across State Road 37, which Republican Gov. Mitch Daniels and his Democratic opponent Jill Long Thompson envision as an extension of the Interstate 69 NAFTA Highway, Bill Bergman likewise chuckled. He became a minor media star after painting "Mitch, Make Me an Offer?" on the side of his home and signed it "I-69 Backer."
Steven Higgs: Fighting the NAFTA Super-Highway
Goodbye USA, Hello North American Unio
Another infrastructure project.
See how that works.
"I just wonder if, next year, with unemployment at say 9-10%, the USG announced some major infrastructure projects how many AMERICANS are ready willing and able to go out and work outside in the hot summers and cold winters doing the iron work, lineman work, etc."
Young people from 17 - 25? Plenty.
I missed the previous thread on what we should call this thing, cos at work and can't post.
But after reviewing comment my suggestion is:
The Manic Depression
Viz: YouTube -
CC
Policymakers need to come clean with the American public:
Let's do a local experiment along these lines.
Gas taxes need to be raised $0.04/month for the next 10 years or we'll end up fighting a 3rd war in the Persian Gulf.
Discuss.
@Chris
"What about building a system of roads for exclusive use of trucks so normal automobiles can feel at ease and welcome on the Interstates? I parallel system of truck highways (in crucial areas) would be a 1000% welcome."
I think they tried this in the 1800's. Truckers are not big fans.
Lend Lease Corp. shares slumped 10 percent in Sydney trading after Australia's largest developer scrapped plans to sell its half of the King of Prussia shopping center, the third-largest mall in the U.S.
Assets won't be sold at low values because Lend Lease is not a ``forced seller,'', the Sydney-based company said today in a statement. Lend Lease shares fell by the most in a month. The King of Prussia stake was worth $400 million at June 30, according to Lend Lease's 2008 earnings report.
Lend Lease Falls After Scrapping King of Prussia Sale (Update2) - Bloomberg.com
Here is the magical thing about universal healthcare system that 97% of Americans do not understand.
The private system is still there - only much better. Back in Finland, I always used a private dentist and a private doctor. And it was awesome: no wait times, latest technology, 70% cheaper than private clinics in NYC.
Why? Because all the poor people are in the public system. They don't clog the private clinics and drive up prices by being deadbeats.
The universal healthcare makes the private system function far, far better. This ain't too complex.
Getting weaned from easy credit isn't the only lifestyle change America needs. It also needs to be weaned from irrigation and water diversion
Humans have depended upon irrigation and water diversion since the very earliest civilization in the Fertile Crescent. We wouldn't have much of a civilization without it.
Bank of England: We'll slash interest rates to ZERO to rescue the economy
Governor Mervyn King said he is ready to reduce rates to whatever level is necessary to counter the economic storm.
He warned Britains economy could shrink by at least 2 per cent during 2009, pushing inflation into negative territory for the first time in almost half a century.
A worst-case scenario could see a slump of more than 3 per cent in gross domestic product, the biggest year-on-year fall since the beginning of 1981.
why am I beholden to a cartel for fuel?
Comrade Counterpointer,
I liked Econoplyse Now!
Nostrovia,
Assets won't be sold at low values because Lend Lease is not a ``forced seller,'', the Sydney-based company said today in a statement.
The unintentional comedians are out in force today.
If the Big O really wanted to emulate JFK, he could sponsor a mission to the sun. We'll show them Chinese.
@Morocco Bama
"Do we want to continue to build highways if there's no gas in 30 years?
You build now, what you want to see in 30, 40 and 50 years. Why more of the same?"
I'm thinking electrified roads and a grid to power them. What were you envisioning?
Santa says damn!
The vacancy rate at U.S. regional and superregional malls rose to 6.6 percent in the third quarter, the highest since the quarter after the September 2001 terrorist attacks, from 5.8 percent at the end of 2007, according to Reis.
At neighborhood and community shopping centers, the national vacancy rate will rise to 9.9 percent by the end of 2009 and worsen to 10.3 percent in 2010, from 9.1 percent at the end of 2008, Reis's Chandan said. He didn't forecast vacancies for regional malls today.
Infrastructure, if built, will take 3 years before you start paying J6P. Until then the civil eng. and consultants get a wack, but maybe .10% of total at best. By then, the majority (80%) of contractors nationally will be DOA, or so small, they won't be able to do squat or fund the first payroll. Gov't will have to frontload payments to the tune of 20% just to get started.
This ain't the thirties boys and squirrels.
Obama has 2 years until the term "Husseinerville" enters the lexicon, so like a said in previous thread, Ron Paul wins the ideology war by default. The consumer is cooked. How bad is a drywaller or a backhoe operator gonna HATE the overpaid nut tightner in Flint, if autos get a bailout. Those UAW boys better not bitch about nothing, cause the construction worker will scab just so he can sock him in a picket line scuffle.
Are we there yet, boss?
Pavel Chichikov writes:
It's like predicting a worse depression than '29. Anybody can do that. It doesn't help - and we need help, not depressants.
My basic response to this is that being a Johnny Songbird is not actually help.
This isn't telling a person bleeding out from a fatal wound that help is coming, this is telling someone with a serious health condition that it's not that bad.
"Don't expect the worst, things will get better" to every scenario is how we got here.
People should really be hustling their asses to get ready for storm season. Hurricane fatigue is not an issue, the storm here.
If you want my positive advice it's something I've said again and again, which is that you need friends and community. Friends and community are things you can have when you're stripped of all wealth. Families, artificial and blood alike, are part of the human animal and exist specifically to provide support in times of hardship and reduced capabilities.
PeakVT:
I'm okay with that re raise gas tax incrementally.
One of the best political commercials I saw this season was one in which the candidate equated the cost of the bailout with about what we spend on oil each year.
Take proceeds of tax and apply to road repair and energy development. That would be lovely in terms of OPEC and those who use our addiction against us.
I also think that people are sufficiently pissed with everything that they'd happily do it if also assured that any work would be done by American firms with American employees.
What were you envisioning?
A desolate and irradiated wasteland.
Are we there yet, boss?
ya haz to sez it in grok.
B_R
In the words of Reagan - "there you go again..."
Blackhalo:
I'm thinking electrified roads and a grid to power them. What were you envisioning?
Shai Agassi's firm has signed with the Aussies and 2 other countries to build battery changing stations. Idea is that you pull into the station and depending on the length of your travel you buy a short or long term battery. The battery change is done in less time than it takes to fill gas.
Lots of change on the horizon. Its about time.
Full disclosure: I completed a master's degree in urban and regional planning in June and am therefore optimistis about infrastructure as a solid investment.
However...
Those here championing the entrepreneur need to temper their enthusiasm with the fact that the most entrepreneuring we've been doing in the past decade was in financial engineering. That didn't help. There is a limit to the power of both the entrepreneur and the public sector in bringing social benefits. We are entering a period of the public sector.
I agree with all those who have said that infrastructure cannot just be infrastructure for the sake of itself. There are way too many people thinking that just building something will get us out of this mess. This I think is based on a romanticization of the New Deal infrastructure projects. They employed people, but it wasn't until the war that the Depression abated. Infrastructure supports. Thinking it does anything on its own is misguided.
Infrastructure we need:
1) Transportation alternatives to the car.
2) Energy alternatives to fossil fuels.
3) Updated water delivery.
Dealing with those three will take us a long time and will leave us with an infrastructure we won't have to worry about when the economy recovers. Then we can use the money to stimulate the entrepreneurs as the period of the public sector transitions to a period of the entrepreneur.
Where did my cash flow, my friggn yield, I thought I had cash flow???
Re: We're just at the beginning of the recession,'' said Hiroyuki Bando, chief manager for fixed income, equities and currencies in Tokyo at Mitsubishi UFJ Trust & Banking Corp., part of Japan's biggest bank.I'm positive on Treasuries.''
Two-year notes yielded 1.17 percent as of 11:19 a.m. in Tokyo, according to BGCantor Market Data. The 1.5 percent security maturing in October 2010 traded at a price of 100 20/32. The yield declined to 1.15 percent yesterday, the lowest since June 2003, when it reached 1.0558 percent. A basis point is 0.01 percentage point.
The rate will tumble to 1 percent by the end of November, Bando said.
Why not another moon shot? Mars shot?
Manned exploration of the solar system.
But then what will we do with the other $500B from TARP ?
grow a garden and love your friends and family.
and tax the fuck out of oil.
@Unit472
"We can't get people now to work as service technicians for gas utility.
There's a shortage of coal miners too.
...are ready willing and able to go out and work outside in the hot summers and cold winters doing the iron work, lineman work, etc."
Hazardous work for minimum wage? I think I see your problem. Adjust minimum wage to 70s levels and see who shows up.
If enough people are earning a living wage you might find that the electric company can afford to pay the coal companies enough to hire some domestic help to mine the coal.
30yrs of wage deflation is catching up to the TPTB.
Let's send the NeoCons. Cheney in a spacesuit drinking tang and pissing his diaper.
Unit472 writes:
I just wonder if, next year, with unemployment at say 9-10%, the USG announced some major infrastructure projects how many AMERICANS are ready willing and able to go out and work outside in the hot summers and cold winters doing the iron work, lineman work, etc.
I hope I don't come across as pointlessly combative, but I really wonder why everyone thinks this infra work is worth a tinker's damn.
Live in the real world guys. There's no use for gang labor anymore and the conditions are too hazardous for people to conscience it as make-work given the current standards. It's just a way to give money to a bunch of national contracting firms. It didn't work for Japan and they had construction for their construction.
Besides, Unit472 and 2,000,000 other socipathic Republican ranters would be screaming any sort of CCC/WPA type program is socialism or the new sturmabteilung, while 2,000,000 liberal ranters scream that it's being done on three-footed burrow owl nests and why do we even need a project of this type.
Why do we seem to be compelled to repeat the Japanese experience? You might as well just call it infra-TARP, 'cause all it's gonna do it let some plenipotentiary Hanktator award crooked construction contracts. No it doesn't HAVE to be done that way but it sure is the way it's gonna come out.
I want certain people to mine the coal, though. All current corporate executives.
@Noble
"Lots of change on the horizon. Its about time."
The impending doom of the Big 3 and their lobbyists sure opens a lot of doors.
I am going to add bridge reinforcement to infrastructure needs.
FYI: CR strikes again.
Yen at 95 suggests to me that decoupling is coming down the pike, with the US getting left behind. Its the early signs of what is in store once the blowup is over.
Noble writes:
B_R
In the words of Reagan - "there you go again..."
How apt. Quote some more of the show-biz rhetoric of the guy who got us on the road to this particular dead-end highway.
Maybe one of your little showmanly flourishes can make the US not insolvent, won't that be a trick?
I am going to add bridge reinforcement to infrastructure needs.
It's not going to stop the Mothman.
Byzantine Ruins,
You gotta do something. You gotta go down fighting! You can't just do NOTHING. You're either with us or you're with the terrorists. Ignorance is strength!
debtus writes:
You gotta do something. You gotta go down fighting!
I intend to. Rastaman has lots to do. There'll be wars and armies and then a new dynasty or maybe regional states. My locality is really gonna need me.
Waste my life slamming my hand in a door trying to revive a broken state apparatus with money it doesn't have? Get real! There's a reason talented administrators go into hiding at the end of dynasties. What would I do but prolong the injustice and the agony of the inevitable?
Re: But then what will we do with the other $500B from TARP ?
What about medical marijuana?
Oh c'mon, show a bit of enthusiasm. You got your own Sol for warmth in the winter, the ice-cold of space to cool in the summer, and you can banish the kids to their own separate planets to stop the goddammed fighting.
The last alone is worth the risk, if you've been a parent.
Currently Choking my Chicken writes: I'll take bloated, over-budget, featherbedded road projects any day over more Wall Street horseshit.
Fact is, there's a shortage of capital, so unless this is done smart, it'll be a fiasco, like the LA subway. If that hadn't cost roughly a billion (1986!) dollars for every 3 miles, imagine what a system could have been built?
Anyhow, the point of property-working "machine politics" is, it works at delivering the goods. So I plan to be as bitchy and nasty about crude payoffs, bloated budgets, and stupid priorities as I have ever been -- maybe more so -- because if it screws up now, we'll end up discrediting the very things some of us have waited a long time to try to make happen.
There's a broken-down bridge right now in the middle of Cleveland that's costing millions of dollars of lost productivity because of traffic delays. If it had been maintained or upgraded, those delays wouldn't have happened.
--CSC
Yes, and it's true that if you let infrastructure deteriorate that badly then repairs will increase efficiency - but not beyond the original efficiency, which has ceased to be a "profit."
S_puttnick agrees with what I said:
infrastructure cannot just be infrastructure for the sake of itself. There are way too many people thinking that just building something will get us out of this mess.
If we're going to borrow money to invest (and it will be newly-borrowed) in infrastructure, it has to generate profits through new efficiencies of some kind.
Upkeep does not do that. Upkeep is just upkeep.
No food on the island. We can plan our next meal until we starve.
Currently Smoking Cannabis
I'm still here with the kids...no reservations necessary.
Goodbye USA, Hello North American Union
rps | 11.12.08 - 9:47 pm | #
"el anschlus"
Got news for you - it has already happened. Only ones who don't know are the competing rulers.
The universal healthcare makes the private system function far, far better. This ain't too complex.
karelian | 11.12.08 - 9:50 pm | #
Obviously too complex for some.
When knee surgeons get $10k a surgery and pump out 10 a day, that is a problem. Doctors deserve to get paid a premium, but they are getting awfully greedy these days.
Socializing medicine will hurt second home vacation markets the most.
@DCRogers
"So I plan to be as bitchy and nasty about crude payoffs, bloated budgets, and stupid priorities as I have ever been -- maybe more so -- because if it screws up now, we'll end up discrediting the very things some of us have waited a long time to try to make happen."
I hate to be a Cynic but I have doubts we have the politicians in place to pull it off. Integrity, accountability and ownership have not shown themselves in Washington since Truman. J6P will buckle at the first sign of hardship and elect the first idiot that says, "free beer, ponies for all and housing only goes up."
"Currently Smoking Cannabis writes:
We could just desalinize. The technology is there, the money IS available (see recent giveaways), but the political will is not."
CSC- One of your neighbors to the south of you is currently working on the nation's largest project to date, here's a recent article - Page not found
From previous thread:
"Beneath the Planet of the Great Depression"
The guy who figured out ink jet printers also figured out a cheap way to desalinate water. Just hope you don't get the wrong invention delivered to your seaside home.
"When knee surgeons get $10k a surgery and pump out 10 a day, that is a problem. Doctors deserve to get paid a premium, but they are getting awfully greedy these days."
Blew a disk in my neck, went in for surgery was out in 30 min and ready to go home, although they made me stay overnight for observation.
10K Anesthesiologist
10K Surgeon
10K Hospital/Surgery
10K Radiologist
Insurance paid 80% of the 90% that was theirs to pay. No deduction on the 10% that I had to pay.
Some kind of racket going on there.
Top notch work but there is something funny going on.
Yes, doctor fees are borderline criminal right now. I'm sure why the insurance companies aren't forcing down pay scales more. Dare I say they are getting close to IBers?
Yes, MDs are way over paid, and the majority of them are drug pushers.
The housing prices are NOT going to rebound because that suggests that previous prices were realistic, which they were not. They were inflated because money was cheap and easy to borrow. Consumer credit cannot sustain the economy, yet this seems to be the final breath of wind that the Fed has to offer. It would have been much better if the government just let GS, JPM, and MS go BK as investment banks. Now, the Fed (US Taxpayer) is in the hole on all of them.
The Economic Chainsaw Murder II.
Yeah, Obama's desire to build roads is a joke considering that he won't drill for oil. He badly needs oil to hit $140 again.
As far as solar panels go, let's see:
$750,000,000,000 divided by let's say $25,000 per house means we could put solar panels on 30,000,000 houses. Let's put 'em on houses in states that gets lots of sunshine, say, hmmm, CA, FLA, AZ, NV. Add $25,000 in value to homes worst hit by foreclosures, made more attractive by free electricity forever, so we'd at least help to put a floor on housing. All the extra electricity goes to the nation's grid, we'd cut our fossil fuel use by 25% or so, and we could tell the Mideast where to put it. There'd be free, or close to it, electricity for all, which would free up money for consumption and help new businesses get started. Power plants wouldn't be burning so much coal, the air and water would be cleaner, people would be healthier. Figure it takes 3 guys 2 days to set up a house, that would put 900,000 out-of-work construction guys to work for a year.
Nah forget it, let's just give it to the bankers instead and hope they use it wisely...
We're just at the beginning of the recession,'' said Hiroyuki Bando
And a bando would know.
Do we want to continue to build highways if there's no gas in 30 years?
Yes, but with hoists underneath.
In the Rapture, we'll turn them vertical for extra lift off!
We're just at the beginning of the recession,'' said Hiroyuki Bando
And a bando would know.
fafhrd
I met Hiroyuki in an REO in San Francisco. I was leaving and he asked if he could take over the house. I said "OK" as long as he helped me haul the abandoned flatscreen and 32 jet hot tub to my car. We talked, and he seemed like a good Bando. Nice to see he is getting some press.
Duarte writes:
Yes, MDs are way over paid, and the majority of them are drug pushers.
Wrong.
Wrong.
PSgirl
I think the issue with doctors now is that their student loans are so high, they need to make a huge pile of money fast. Thus, the established doctors reap the benefits of the current high cost of medical school. It is the patients that lose. I know drug user doctors, but not too many drug pushers that I am aware of. By the way, doctors have a good/protective drug abusers program. Too good, in my opinion.
Upkeep does not do that. Upkeep is just upkeep.
unirealist | 11.12.08 - 10:29 pm | #
That all depends on how much that up keep has been defered. The ROI on fixing what you have is often much greater than replacing stuff that falls apart. We have woefully neglected the upkeep of our current P&E, thats why bridges are falling down in Minneapolus etc. However, plenty of new stuff that could generate a positive ROI. energy, power grid stuff tops the list. How much productivity is lost when a big windstorm knocks out power to 100K for a week? How often does that happen in this country? A smart grid would make existing power plants more efficent as well.
Elvis, you are correct about all you say. I know several doctors that have been in rehab several times. The stories would make your eyes cross.
Another reason the doctors charge alot is that they do not get to start making money until they are well into their 30's if they do a specialty. For instance on Blackhalo's neurosurgeon probably did not start practice until he or she was mid-30's so was making very little money until then.
Also, on the fees, take into consideration Medicare and Medicaid. On Blackhalo's surgery, the surgeon probably gets a 3-4 grand from Medicare and 2-3 from Medicaid. Maybe less.
It is a difficult problem.
It is a difficult problem.
PSgirl
I agree. But maybe we don't want our best and brightest to be physicians anymore. Maybe our best and brightest should be politicians and we should pay them more than doctors. Did I really say that?
"Maybe our best and brightest should be politicians and we should pay them more than doctors. Did I really say that?"
I vote for more leaders and less politicians.
Then we should start calling them leadership races.
Gas taxes need to be raised $0.04/month for the next 10 years or we'll end up fighting a 3rd war in the Persian Gulf.
Discuss.
PeakVT.
We hit the inflection point this summer when gas was $4/gallon, usage dropped dramatically. Tax it to maintain that cost and usage goes down, revenues go up, we all buy fuel efficient cars.
(How do I turn off the damn italics?)
Infrastructure we need:
1) Transportation alternatives to the car.
2) Energy alternatives to fossil fuels.
3) Updated water delivery.
s_puttnick
Agreed. While I have great respect for Rob Dawg and his thoughtful comments, the high speed rail from SF to LA addresses 1 and 2 above. Couple the train with a corresponding solar/wind facility and you might be onto something. Why rebuild the highways and expand airports when we can rapidly move people and goods over newly designed and build infrastructure that will ease oil importation.
Granted, you will be paying Bechtel to design it, but think of all the engineers, materials manufactures, construction labor that's employed in the process. Expensive, yes. Forward thinking, yes.
Forward thinking, yes.
Uffish Thought
Mass transit is forward thing for those who use it. For others, it is sitting next to really fat, smelly people and not having the freedom to drive to the strip club for lunch.
Elvis writes:
Wrong.
PSgirl
I think the issue with doctors now is that their student loans are so high, they need to make a huge pile of money fast. Thus, the established doctors reap the benefits of the current high cost of medical school. It is the patients that lose. I know drug user doctors, but not too many drug pushers that I am aware of. By the way, doctors have a good/protective drug abusers program. Too good, in my opinion.
Elvis | 11.12.08 - 11:36 pm
Exactly. The system of educating physicians is out of control: Undergrad loans, med school loans, low pay in residency, long period of time to enter the work force all leads to a massive debt load that needs to be worked off in conjunction with saving for retirement, buying a house, starting a family...
As some discussed on a prior thread; the system where undergrad-med school is paid for by the state up front, and repaid for by the physicians commitment to work, in their field of choice, for x years before going private is one that works in other countries. Once private, the doc charges the private going rate to people that can pay and want personalized service with the best technologies and no wait time.
Elvis, I'm thinking of the high speed rail, 2 hours from SF to LA as opposed to the city bus going cross town, yuck.
well this all could be the unwinding to the planetary change/climax/shift unfolding of the truth before our eyes of the 2012 events-if it is then the forces that are in control are taking the money while creating order and control mechanisms for the masses-cant buy weapons if you have no money-if this is so then all the businesses will go BK and the govt's of the world will take over control of power/water/energy etc etc as well as humanitarian programs-but rest assured when we get close to sh1t hitting the fan-then its everyone for themselves-do a search on " NIBIRU "
and "THIRD TEMPLE" or "TEMPLE PROJECT"
in reference to solomans temple-if what i am saying is true,then there is no bottom until all the exchanges close their doors-i really i hope i am wrong! and Obama Admin can pull us outta the ditch.
What is needed is rapid employment,
Employment for whom? Haven't seen a construction project in years that wasn't predominated by Mexicans and those from further south. And I include buildings built for the Federal government.
Nobody's gonna pay union wages. After the contractor gets his cut (which he splits with the district's congressperson via timely contributions) there's nothing left to trickle down to a middle class.
What's a republic?
Those looking for a leader always assume that if they find one that they are going to be the leader's pet.
What's a republic?
"If you want my positive advice it's something I've said again and again, which is that you need friends and community. Friends and community are things you can have when you're stripped of all wealth."
Who said anything against friends and community?
"My basic response to this is that being a Johnny Songbird is not actually help.
Does anyone here have anything else to say but: "All is lost"?
Why did people build in the middle of the desert?
Because dumb shits in the Midwest and East coast subsidize western water projects with their taxes.
most western irrigation projects are subsidized in three ways. First, irrigators often receive no-interest or extremely low-interest loans for project construction, with repayments scheduled over very long time periods - forty or fifty years or longer. Second, many project costs are forgiven and charged instead to taxpayers, since the projects are seen as having public benefits, such as recreation. Third, Congress frequently legislate repayment relief.
Guzzling the West’s Water | George Wuerthner | Travel & Outdoors | NewWest.Net
What's a republic?
Maybe you would like your own travel lane also. 1000% silly.
Hardly. The truck only roads don't need to cover the whole nation; merely areas where the congestion is excessive. I think you would find many who would agree with me. I suspect you are given to disgruntled snarks in general. Like people who don't want any infrastructure spending at all.
I think they tried this in the 1800's. Truckers are not big fans
1800's????!!!! In any case it would not be for the truckers; but for the non truckers.
Fact is, there's a shortage of capital
Not exactly since the government creates "capital" when it wishes. It may ultimately fuel inflation but capital can be created as needed. What Americans need to be enraged about, but seem too dense to get it, is that all the billions, nay trillions eventually, wasted on the Iraq war could now serve to help get us out of this crisis. But it went down the drain of a war to please Israel. That's what Americans should be blowing up about.
Every time I get my hopes up that we're past the denial stage, some politician reminds me that we aren't quite there yet. Or maybe we're in the bargaining phase, as in "if we can just get home prices to stop falling, everything will be OK."
The entire country needs to get past it's obsession with real estate. Rising home values are a symptom or side effect, if you will, of a good economy. Right now our economy is a piece of shit, and until the underlying CORE issues are addressed, housing will continue to SUCK.
Let's move on to acceptance, America.
Infrastructure spending is no panacea. There has to be reason for the infrastructure other than "it's nice to have". Think of all the exurban road building over the last ten years - infrsuatructure built mainly to support housing developments that produce nothing.
Infrastructure is important, but only for an economy that actually produces tangible goods. Agriculture isn't expanding, mining isn't expanding, manufacturing is shrinking. What the heck do we need more infrastructure for?
In my youth there were 35 students to a classroom, now there's 20. Talk about a complete waste of money on infrastructure. We aren't running on the fumes of last generation's infrstructure spending, we're paying the bills on maintenance of far too much unnecessary infrastructure built (on debt) by the last generation.
Infrastructure does not just mean road/transit. Infrastructure includes the electrical grid and the water grid, both of which are in serious need of reinvestment. Even if traffic lessens in the future, we will all still need water and electricity.
The power outages from hurricane Ike cost an estimated 6 billion in lost productivity alone. The initial power loss was pretty unavoidable but the ensuing two/three weeks without power was not. A robust and modern electrical grid would have been repaired much quicker.
The ASCE has pretty much given the US a D- on infrastructure SAFETY.
Although infrastructure investment doesn't provide a recordable monetary profit (which is why private companies won't do it) efficient commerce is impossible without it. No company is going to invest in an area without good infrastructure. This is one of the reasons that Africa has had so little investment in its natural resources, there is just no way to get goods to market, and the lack of infrastructure leads to massive amounts of wasted human effort and suffering that spawn political uncertainty.
While we won't see a bridge ever making a profit, routes of transport are necessary to take advantage of gains from trade.
However, plenty of new stuff that could generate a positive ROI. energy, power grid stuff tops the list.
The ROI is lost when the government sets power rates. The vilification of profits leads to deteriorating infrastructure like power grids. If your profit is going to be hammered down by government, the capital expenditure is a waste of money - better off playing financial leverage games. Some of those leverage games include lobbying to restrict competition - games our politicians are more than happy to participate in.
Although infrastructure investment doesn't provide a recordable monetary profit (which is why private companies won't do it)
That's complete baloney. Capital investment in order to make profit always makes sense. It's when profit is punished that capital expenditure is lessened.
If you want taxpayer-paid infrastructure, you need government revenues to exceed government expenditures. Otherwise we keep digging the same grave we've been digging for the last 40 years. Governments are insolvent, so it won't be done.
With the present insolvency we are now in the process of seeing just how much infrastructure is unnecessary. And that scares the hell out of people who believe in the fallacy that more infrastructure is always better. Infrastructure for infrastructure's sake is just plain wasteful.
This false dichotomy between "more infrastructure" or less obfuscates Professor Duy points. Isn't he speaking about focusing now on creating the optimal performance of the resources we already have?
In that view, what's wrong with high-speed, low-cost travel that takes pressure of our energy needs and relieves some housing pressures?
What's wrong with a highly educated and highly skilled populace, ready for the jobs of the 21st century?
What's wrong with a comprehensive, efficient medical system that creates a healthier, cheaper workforce?
What's wrong with trying to make an American advantage - our massive resources - work better, smarter and more cost-efficiently during these times of recession?
Theorizing as if the credit and housing bubbles and the finance market bailouts never happened is not a real workable option.