Ain't gonna be enough bailout to go around. Gentlemen, start your victory gardens.

I suppose it was only a matter of time before they too started opening their beaks and cheeping.
mal | 11.13.08 - 8:54 am

Congress opened this door and now everyone wants in. Got 5 trillion to spare?

It's not going to be Waterworld - welcome to Liquidationworld!

Do you really believe the govt's numbers? You think it's not higher than they say? Ever heard of hedonics?

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

What happens to unemployment when the gov't goes out of business?

Drops to zero because no benefits will be paid out. Talk about Orwell.

Paulson's TARP Reform Spells Return of Systemic Risk, BNP Says - Bloomberg.com

Nov. 13 (Bloomberg) -- Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson's decision to abandon the purchase of toxic mortgage-linked securities under the Troubled Asset Relief Program may trigger a return of systemic risk to credit markets, BNP Paribas SA said.

Substantial risk still remains within the U.S. financial system,'' said Rajeev Shah, a London-based credit strategist at BNP Paribas.Uncertainty about existing troubled assets could lead to increasing systemic risk.''

Dear Fed,

Please finish making your blackmail payments. Failure to do so and we will crash the system... really, we'll do it this time we swear.

Banks

What happens to unemployment when the gov't goes out of business?
Elvis | 11.13.08 - 9:03 am

Unfortunately, given their track record, I believe that unemployment insurance is NOT too big to fail.

Better have your shotgun and pitchfork ready.

Actually, if you think about it, we are all garbage collectors, metaphorically speaking.

a Hammer, some Nails and some Wood will be needed soon.

Justice - the Roman way!

Of course stocks are gonna soar today! There is more evidence of downward pressure on the serfs' wages!! Oh, I forgot. If there are too many unemployed people how are the banks gonna create more credit demand? I know! Raise interest rates! Less demand, less supply. Right. Wait. That's not gonna work is it...

"Deepwater and Alberta sands projects which are very costly seem to be in the most trouble. Unfortunately, these are exactly the projects that are being counted on to supply an increasing share of world oil production in coming years."

My sister left the corporate world to become a doggie daycare manager. I'm trying to figure out if she'll gain or lose business in an economic downturn. If people need to take second jobs or jobs with crazy hours, Fido will still need to be babysat. It will be interesting to see how that shakes out.

Little anecdote: My dad (in his late sixties) just told me his is taking a class to get a commercial drivers license so he can drive a bus.

This is a guy who worked in tech his entire career selling and managing. Made hundreds of thousands a year throughout the 80's and 90's....was laid off in 2001 and started up his own mortgage shop so he could work from home. Made a lot of hay while the mortgage sun was shining and now that business is dead.

Lives in a house that temporarily would have traded hands for a million + at the peak...now maybe 600K. Has seen everything he owns absolutely crater in value...house, stocks, income. The middle class is getting absolutely crushed. And this thing is just getting started.

He is finally starting to listen to me when I use the "D" word. Oh...and guys like this do not show up in the unemployment numbers.

Ellen, unfortunately, more doggies are going to be relegated to the back yard, and the kitties, fortunately for them, will be let outside to hunt more birdies.

Oh, but PeakVT, we have the highest corporate tax rate of any industrialized nation, is what we'll hear.

Ketchup is a vegetable.

If I were king of the world for a day, I'd free all the hoopajoops!

We all know what happened to the last Czar. Isn't it odd how that word now has positve connotations? Nicholas II was a buffoo

Dickeylee, without a viable business plan, any bailout for the little 3 would be worse than socialism. At least with socialism, you get something in return for the money spent on social programs....a relatively happy and productive populace. Also, a bailout for the little 3 will just defer the inevitable. Take the life support away, once and for all.

Mini Depression or Great Depression?
You decide

Dickeylee- Plus if it were really about laid off autoworkers, you could extend a very healthy 6-month, or a year even, severance plus training for new work for a fraction of the $50 billion. Some workers would stay in the auto industry and others could opt to work in infrastructure building or such. This would be much more healthy for the labor force.

Czar Bama

Dickeylee writes:
Oh, I know, lets let GM and F go under, layoff 120k, and let their dealer network crash and close down, lating off another 230k. And their tier 1-2-3 suppliers shut down and put another 180k out of work...whew, this is going to really suck.
Dickeylee | 11.13.08 - 9:21 am | #

It's getting old listening to you complain about your ox getting gored...

Czar Bama has a good ring to it. I bet that sticks.

I once changed the oil to my car myself. Does that qualify me for car czar?

And the Dow opens up. LMAO.

And with all of this great news, the stock market opens up! The insanity continues...

Sam, I like it....Czar Bama, I mean, not your wife's now worthless retirement.

If Ford and GM go under, the job loss resulting from dealership closings alone would trigger a depression. There must be at least 10,000 dealerships employing something like 50 people each- 500,000 jobs go poof! Some dealers got smart and diversified into foreign cars, so it won't be this bad, but I'm only counting dealership jobs...there are also millions of other jobs tied to GM and Ford that are hard to quantify.

@gabyjan
I agree with Reich. We need to keep the big three alive. But we need to ensure that they do not continue to pursue cars that are not what the country wants. They need to build a Camry (top selling car in the US).
I also believe that if you are 'too big to fail' that you are too big. I would love to see GM broken up along its name brand lines. Then is, say, Cadillac fails - so be it.
Finally, I was shocked to see the average hourly route for hourly emplyees is $75 at GM. WOW! Do they understand just how much more that is than every other field?

" Neuromancer writes:
@gabyjan
I agree with Reich. We need to keep the big three alive. But we need to ensure that they do not continue to pursue cars that are not what the country wants. They need to build a Camry (top selling car in the US).
I also believe that if you are 'too big to fail' that you are too big. I would love to see GM broken up along its name brand lines. Then is, say, Cadillac fails - so be it.
Finally, I was shocked to see the average hourly route for hourly emplyees is $75 at GM. WOW! Do they understand just how much more that is than every other field?
Neuromancer | 11.13.08 - 9:52 am | # "

It's probably $75/hr including benefits- but yes, it's way too much. The UAW has destroyed these companies, and it needs to be split up like the companies need to be. GM has far too many brands. They need to run it like In-N-Out burger- simple, short menu, excellent quality and value. The need to employ more young people too...get them off of Internet pr0n and 3-ways with their high school friends.

If the UAW really wanted to help autoworkers and the US economy, they would all simultaneously walk off the job until the President slaps a 25% tariff on all imported cars, which is then reinvested into the industry to create 100% electric cars. This would solve like 5 problems at once.

Puppies for Paulson.

Ellen wrote:
My sister left the corporate world to become a doggie daycare manager.

I don't know quite how to tell you or your sister this Ellen...but how long can Fido tread water?

If it's us or Fido...well sorry Fido.

The doggy parlors, aroma therapy shops, nail shops, eliteist boutiques that suck up but don't create wealth are all going down.

I like Czar Banes.

"I saw a for rent sign on the Bankerdome."

He's run out of food! Its Hansel and Grettel time.

Seriously, where is Banker?

" michael L writes:
"And the 4,500 GM/F dealerships, the hell with them also I guess"

In case you haven't noticed the American people hate car dealers. I've been car shopping lately for an American car!! And just gave up because of the time wasing bull-carp.
michael L | 11.13.08 - 10:13 am | # "

You need to discover Internet car shopping- get quotes over email before you even walk in. Also, some credit unions and financial companies offer buyer assistance programs, which takes the hassle out of it.

I have lived in California and NY, and in CA, 9/10 cars are foreign, and in NY, 9/10 cars are American- go figure. I have owned both, and I prefer foreign.

Last week, within days from each other, my brother then his wife both lost their jobs. Cutbacks, is what they were told. He in management and she in health care, they were both completely blind sighted by this sudden turn of events. A week prior, 40 IT guys were cut from my husband's firm without warning. No more cuts for them until next quarter. Yikes!

Things are going down fast and furious. The only other time I've seen these kinds of cuts was after the tech bubble burst but it was us techies that felt that. Everyone else around me were clueless to what was happening. What's happening now is broader and deeper and much more for far reaching.

There's now a real sense of panic this month amongst the rabble, that wasn't quite there a few months ago.

Christmas will be interesting.