OT - Thinking about PPI tomorrow. My sense is the number will tank showing the deflation in the economy with commodities falling off a cliff and lack of demand for goods driving prices down the drain.
I am considering taking 1/2 my TBT position off so I can step back in after a mini bond rally ?
Depending on whether you are an optimist or a pessimist, our children (and children's children) were either just saved 350 Billion, or robbed of only 350 Billion.
The 350 Billion can was just kicked down the road. That's a good thing.
I see this as some people in the Bush admin gaining the upper hand vs Paulson in advising the President. Bush is thinking about his "legacy", and given the fact that Paulson's flailing around with the first half of the TARP has been a miserable failure I can see Bush deciding to cut PR losses on this. Could be wrong, but seems plausible to me. Paulson has been such an abomination...
At least leave something there. Hanky-Poo already made his sweet deal with the banks at twice the going rate...anymore of those and we'd be seeing some jail time...not that they don't deserve it already.
White House spokesman Tony Fratto neither confirmed nor disputed their account, adding that any decision about the use of the remaining $350 billion was up to Paulson.
"He said he's working to continue to design and develop programs, and when it's the right time to use them Treasury will announce it. And if it then makes sense to go to Congress, he'll recommend we request to drawdown the second $350 billion," Fratto said.
And this:
U.S. Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Burlington) announced Monday that he will introduce legislation to prevent the release of the remaining $350 billion available to the Bush Administration under the Wall Street rescue package passed in early October.
Something smells fishy...something's rotten in Denmark...
They wouldn't just say, "ahh fuck it"?
These guys are the ultimate scoundrels...there's gotta be a reason that benefits THEM: Bush, Paulson et al. or that fucks the other guy.
The 1st thing that comes to mind is that the bailout $$$ is really farcical anyway. That all of the trillions in off-book valuation and $$$ being thrown at these corporations OUTSIDE the reach of TARP makes the TARP itself look pretty insignificant.
"and given the fact that Paulson's flailing around with the first half of the TARP has been a miserable failure I can see Bush deciding to cut PR losses on this. Could be wrong, but seems plausible to me. Paulson has been such an abomination..."
I don't think Shrubboy has enough firing neurons for this level of high level thought. And I only have 3 to begin with. Well...OK...3 is a bit sketchy at time.
1) We must buy these troubled assets! No other approach is worth considering!
2) $700B is the absolute minimum we must have to convince the markets!
3) Uh, perhaps it would be better to start by buying equity in banks...
4) Uh, let's forget about buying troubled assets... (shame it's too late to change the damned name of the program...)
5) Wow, look at the line outside!
6) The rest of the $700B? No thanks, maybe the next folks will think of something creative to do with it.
7) Not. Our. Problem. Any. More. kthxbai!
I believe the head of UAW is before congress today, pleading for a bridge-loan.
The argument being, "GM was on the road to recovery making the right moves, diversifying it's car-lines, until the 'hoocoodanode event of 2008 occurred' and now we need the money"...
Hope he has big high resolution pictures of the rust-belt and tells them that the rest of America could look like this...
the problem with BK now for GM is that it will likely lead to liquidation, since the dear old credit crisis has a crunch on DIP financeing (debtor in possession) therefore no potential for reorganizatio
"o.k., now I'm going to wash the ick off and try to stick to merely off-color remarks, sometimes prescient and even possibly relevant."
Most of us called the going over the cliff a while ago. We're in fall mode now. The whoosh is the air going by. And that thing growing larger beneath us is no longer round...hmmm...what should I call it...gr...ground.
Wait, no one wanted this terrible bailout to pass,and then when Bush stops the 2nd 350B he's condemmed for not allowing Pauslon to blow the whole amount?
Sure.
I can't wait till the Messiah comes and fixes everything.
steelhead writes:
As noted by commentators in past threads, Chapter 11 for GM isn't really feasible unless banks underwrite DIP loans which doesn't seem likely.
This is an excellent point. Enter Taxpayer.
/Treasury drags duffle bag out of car trunk, opens bag, let's taxpayer out, who squints to adjust to the light
FWIW I've noticed a lot more people hanging around parking lots and fast food restaurants not doing anything the past few weeks. Likewise I've noticed a bunch more "For Sale" signs hanging in cars.
Considering the future of this economy, when do we all say "Screw this taxation" and just quit, go home, watch ESPN, and eat doritos for the rest of our lives?
Meanwhile, for those seeking an exit from the commenting insanity here, I continue to offer up my own little forum (see link below). Anyone can post provided they're capable of reading the shared password and typing it in. I've just opened a new thread "Should the next administration spend the remaining $350B no longer being used for TARP, and if so, how?"
The advantage of a forum over this comment-stream is that ideas are better threaded and preserved. But there won't be the chat-room atmosphere that is present here. (I could perhaps add chat-room functionality if folks were interested...)
I also opened up a simple little Wiki on the site to allow folks to hash over ideas in a collaborative fashion. BondGirl and others were interested in that last Friday...
steelhead writes: As noted by commentators in past threads, Chapter 11 for GM isn't really feasible unless banks underwrite DIP loans which doesn't seem likely.
The compromise is clear. Instead of a bailout, have Congress pass a law to underwrite the DIP loans (or make the needed emergency changes to BK law) to allow GM to survive a Chapter 11.
****Repost from last thread. For EHP, MS/Ciao, or anyone with thoughts on this matter:
EHP (evilhenrypaulson):
If you are around I would like to ask an earnest question about a comment you made a couple days ago. It was in regard to Switzerland being at the front of the line for a currency/banking attack.
I agree that the Swiss are in trouble. However, I am not knowledgeable enough to know what the spells for their currency (Swiss Franc). Earlier in the year the CHF was following the JPY as riskier currencies were falling. More recently, the CHF is now following the Euro lower --- clearly not benefiting from carry unwind like the JPY. When Swiss Banking takes the next major hit, do you think the CHF continues to follow the Euro lower? It seems the CHF is even in a worse position than the Euro and GBP as Swiss interest rates are pretty low. In any case, any thoughts/comments you could provide would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
"FWIW I've noticed a lot more people hanging around parking lots and fast food restaurants not doing anything the past few weeks. Likewise I've noticed a bunch more "For Sale" signs hanging in cars.
Anybody else noticing similar things?"
Well I saw a white guy with tool belt hanging about an illegal alien day worker spot. If that counts.
The compromise is clear. Instead of a bailout, have Congress pass a law to underwrite the DIP loans (or make the needed emergency changes to BK law) to allow GM to survive a Chapter 11.
I'd be in favor of this, if the current equity and debt holders get wiped.
Steelhead: As noted by commentators in past threads, Chapter 11 for GM isn't really feasible unless banks underwrite DIP loans which doesn't seem likely.
If the UAW didn't have so many high paying jobs and clout, I could see the govt guaranteeing banks' DIP loans to GM.
But with the UAW's clout and massive amount of jobs on the line, I think GM gets a regular bailout without bankruptcy (in the short-run at least).
There is nothing preventing the current Congress from drafting a bill to address the needs of the Big 3 and submitting it to Bush. It's easier for them to sit back and finger point. The Messiah could have shown "Presidential" leadership in the Senate and thrown his weight around. I guess the BCS was more important.
Bush is far from ideal, but let's be fair here. Both he and Congress are scoundrels.
Well this is the first good piece of news I have heard in a long time.
Except of course that it doesn't make any sense and I am sure there is some terrible reason for why they are backing off on TARP that they are just not telling us.
re DIP loans for GM in BK. These loans are ahead of all other creditors so would probably get funded privately. If not, US could guarantee which is cheaper than a bailout. See WSJ article today.
tin foil hat stuff, i know, but wouldnt letting the big3 implode be a great way to disappear the UAW? not that the current PTB would have any reason to want labor unions broken, of course...
Comrade Baron Von Helmut III writes:
Wait, no one wanted this terrible bailout to pass,and then when Bush stops the 2nd 350B he's condemmed for not allowing Pauslon to blow the whole amount?
The reason being Bush has yet again displayed an extraordinary lack of credibility and confidence. Bush/Paulson wanted $700B up front to buy troubled assets or else. They bought no troubled assets, only drew half the amount and yet the Sky didn't fall.
No $700B, no troubled asset reverse auctions, no WMD's in Iraq, etc.
"Except of course that it doesn't make any sense and I am sure there is some terrible reason for why they are backing off on TARP that they are just not telling us."
Ah, sorry, you missed the call. China phoned and told Shrubboy if the rest of the TRAP was extended, they'd have to find new buyers.
DETROIT -- General Motors will delay incentive payments to dealers next week in an effort to save cash.
The payments for dealer cash, customer cash and other incentives will be delayed from Nov. 28 until Dec. 11, Mark LaNeve, GM's vice president of North American sales, service and marketing, said in an interview with Automotive News.
Letters to dealers explaining the delay are to be sent today, LaNeve said.
He declined to estimate the amount of delayed payments. On average, GM spends about $3,600 per unit in incentives, according to Edmunds.com. Based on GM's U.S. October sales, the company sold about 84,000 vehicles in two weeks. That amounts to total incentive payments of about $302.4 million for two weeks.
TARP money will be incorporated into the new 2 TRILLION dollar Obama plan...10K cash to everyone immediately and new jobs building bridges, roads, other infrastructure...a la...TVA of the 30's. Sleep well for tomorrow we build!
This is a nothingburger. Dealerships have tonso cash right now so they can cough up the incentives the automaker promised.
(PS If this applies to already sold cars, and I think it doe, a few might be pretty ticked off right now. And, God where is lawyerliz!, it may be grounds to return the purchase.)
TARP was an acronym for Troubled Asset Repurchase Program, right? Assets have not or will not be re purchased. A new acronym is in order. I suggest BARF. Bank Assets Recapitalization Fund.
"Most of us called the going over the cliff a while ago. We're in fall mode now. The whoosh is the air going by. And that thing growing larger beneath us is no longer round...hmmm...what should I call it...gr...ground."
That's odd. We just spoke with someone this morning who dreamed that his rottweiler jumped off a cliff, landed in a lake, and broke her back.
Like everything in Bushworld this is calculated politics.
They realize that the public are becoming dimly aware of the criminal level of fraud and deceit involved in these so-called bailouts.
THe long-term plan is to pin this whole mess on the dems, never mind that Dubya was on watch as "The Decider" for the whole run up to disaster.
So they are gonna leave a $350 billion honey pot to temp the hated dems. It's already been authorized, so who can imagine that the democrats will be able to avoid doling it out to industry, cities, states, whoever comes begging?
When the full scope of the disaster becomes apparent even to Joe Twelve-pack and Susy Soccer Mom the Repugs jump up in outrage and claim it's all the fault of those dirty free-spending dems who will steal your money and give it to their chums!
End result = 4 painful Obama years followed by Palin in '12. Karl Rove and buddies really do have the whole clever-evil thing down!
If any of the domestic brands go out, wouldn't that be offset with employment gains on the Japanese brands? I remember Dryfly writing that the Japanese brands probably have more value added in the US than the US brands.
The whole car market is going into the toilet, so it won't be as easy to measure the migration of jobs to Japanese brands. It sure won't be easy to sell it to J6P either.
Reid is another idiot. He could be begging for money to bail out virtually anything, like the candy industry, or makers of beer -- IMHO, the flaw in this thinking is to bail out shit companies that failed from either having shit business plans or fraud accounting. How does saving a few car jobs restart an economy that failed because of accounting fraud and derivative bullshit on wall street? Reid is looking for a scapegoat and he needs to look in the mirror!
Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., said he would hold a test vote this week on a broad economic aid plan -- including spending on public works projects, aid to cash-strapped states, an extension of jobless aid, and the carmaker loans -- that most now concede has virtually no chance of passing.
If that fails, he will seek a vote on the auto industry bailout and the unemployment benefits, Reid said. It could come as early as Wednesday.
"If we move forward, we can protect and create American jobs, help working families and prevent our economy from falling even further into recession," Reid said as he opened a postelection session. "I ask my colleagues to show the American people that in the face of tremendous economic pain and uncertainty, we will not wait until January."
Rally on any news of hope...plunge on actual figures released because they are "fluffed" anyway. Truth is leaking out slower than the money that is running away. Those left are in paralysis and can't figure if the headlights coming their way are 100 yards off or 100 feet. Either way the road runner gets flattened. Smart money is like Bugs Bunny...under ground and outta sight.
can't really offer anything to you on that. Euro short is really the only thing I've ever done, currency wise.
I've done Yen long and Euro short trades both indirectly via options on ETFs.
They both worked out very well but looking back I got out of them too early.
They were some of the most profitable trades I've ever done and I just stopped and never looked at them again. It didn't seem real or sane somehow and that always scares me away.
DETROIT -- General Motors will delay incentive payments to dealers next week in an effort to save cash.
The payments for dealer cash, customer cash and other incentives will be delayed from Nov. 28 until Dec. 11, Mark LaNeve, GM's vice president of North American sales, service and marketing, said in an interview with Automotive News.
Letters to dealers explaining the delay are to be sent today, LaNeve said.
He declined to estimate the amount of delayed payments. On average, GM spends about $3,600 per unit in incentives, according to Edmunds.com. Based on GM's U.S. October sales, the company sold about 84,000 vehicles in two weeks. That amounts to total incentive payments of about $302.4 million for two weeks.
Are they messing with the holdback money too? I can tell you this will mess with the dealers, especially the GM. Most dealers are running very thin margins and are having difficulty with equity lines.
So.. $350B was wasted in this program? That means I just spent more than $1000 on hookers and booze, only it was somebody else's party and I was not invited. Not cool.
It's already been authorized, so who can imagine that the democrats will be able to avoid doling it out to industry, cities, states, whoever comes begging?
Nice theory, but one critical flaw; the remaining $350B has not been authorized.
Notice the headline reads "Administration will not seek remaining TARP Funds". It doesn't say that they will return or refuse the remaining funds. It says that they will not "seek" it from Congress.
Remember, as a check, Frank wanted the $700B to be released in multiple installments, with the first $350B paid immediately. The second $350B would be released after the Sect. of the Treasury asked for it AND if Congress approved the request.
Summers/Geithner/or whoever can still seek the remaining $350B.
Paulson, Bernanke, Bush, Wicks, Franks, Pelosi, Reid, etc, all have to be accountable for the loss of TARP funds; they should all go to prison for fraud and then be hung for Treason!
General Motors will delay incentive payments to dealers next week in an effort to save cash.
Sounds like a Ponzi scheme. GM is waiting for the money from the sales of more cars to pay back the dealers money that they owe. Another strategy would be for GM to Choke off the weak dealers since there are too many anyways... Lawsuits and angry dealers be damned.
The only reason Li' Shrub would do this is because the Repubs told him they were going to vote down any request from him for more money. The knives are out.
There were a lot of mortgages to Eastern Euro countries in francs rather than the currency of the borrower. Hungary is a good example. Should be a lot of defaults on those loans as implosion of EE currencies vs franc makes payments impossible. A factor to consider.
I sat next to someone on a plane a while back who worked for GM. He was a retired top dealer who counseled dealerships on profitability. His schtick was telling them to make a world-class service center and that both service profits and customer loyalty would follow. He said the majority ignored his advice and concentrated on sales. I hope some more listened to him eventually.
The next president and Congress will dutifully request, approve, and distribute the monies, but will do so to a slightly different pool of applicants.
Yeah I don't think the goal is to refrain from the destruction of money by handing it out without judgment (which is the sole manner in which money achieves value). I think the plan is simply to hand it out in more politically and consumption oriented ways.
I think you might hear about that $350 billion going directly to consumers via a stimulus package now maybe with a supplement to get it up to $500 billion or so.
One of the alleged reasons for the TARP was the new "DominoE Theory." Systemic players all have large CDS exposure and once one pops they ALL pop. Then we have received conflicting news on the size of the final CDS settlemenets for Lehman. I have seen s0me state it is less than $10b. But some continue to state it is over $300b. Which is it?
I ask as the CDS on GM has a notional value of $1T. I have no idea who the counter-party is, but considering how cavalier the Repulicans and Paulson are I would guess it is not AIG.
No matter who the counter-party are CDS no longer a talking point when it comes to BK?
My God, I was just looking at photographs from the Weimar era.
A joke went that a shopper left her basket outside a shop. It contained a few trillion marks. When she got back the marks were still there but the basket had been stolen.
--
"The next president and Congress will dutifully request, approve, and distribute the monies, but will do so to a slightly different pool of applicants."
The two political gangs serve different groups of business Crooks (they live in Gangistan, obviously). They also throw few bones into Dopeland.
Kona writes:
Paulson, Bernanke, Bush, Wicks, Franks, Pelosi, Reid, etc, all have to be accountable for the loss of TARP funds; they should all go to prison for fraud and then be hung for Treason!
Kona | 11.17.08 - 3:52 pm | #
Amen. I can't stand this us vs. them party crap. It's not always about winning. It's about leading and doing what's right for the country. They have all failed.
Wow, Paulson is leaving money on the table, and $350B at that. There has to have been some major back room knee capping going on for this to have happened.
The current coup has only a handful of weeks to destroy America, i.e, Job Number One, so how better to do that, add more instability to chaos and toss it in Obama's lap, while Paulson and bernanke walk away wearing flowery dresses hand-in-hand, patting Bush on the butt and saying, heck of a job!
This too shall pass, but perhaps not in this generation!
Those that hate Bush presume evil intent - though ironically split between calling him a chimp and an evil mastermind.
Those that don't hate Bush presume that this is the result of fiscal restraint.
Sadly enough, the only thing that everyone can agree on is that no one likes G.W. Bush.
Personally I don't think Bush is evil, just not smart enough to see his own limitations or not be influenced by those who perhaps are.
I've always argued I'd let GWB babysit my kids or carry a basket of kittens to my next door neighbor long before I would let Clinton do so. But I've also argued that somebody like Clinton is somewhat less likely to destroy things by virtue of having some degree of competence. I think if Bush simply had been more aware of his limits and less inclined to believe he was predestined to carry out some mission, I don't think he would have done so much damage.
With regard to fiscal constraint I hope it is abundantly clear that the Republican party in no way represents fiscal constraint or fiscal conservatism.
It would be absurd to blame today's problems on fiscal conservatism because we have had no such thing in this country for decades now.
Remember the statement by congressman Dennis Kucinich interviewing Neel Kashkari? Congress was told in early October that 350 billions were required to bail out US investors, and 350 billions to "assure" foreign (Chinese?) investors?
Wow, Paulson is leaving money on the table, and $350B at that. There has to have been some major back room knee capping going on for this to have happened.
Show Me The Pony | 11.17.08 - 4:04 pm
I don't understand how so many smart people here can honestly think that we have a two-party system. We have one-party and whoever takes office is the puppet of the Federal Reserve.
Why is politics discussed here? This isn't hard to figure out. The banks (aka the Fed) makes alot of money off both inflation and deflation. We've had lot's of inflation (not the kind YOU are thinking of, but we have had lot's of inflation) for the past 40 years and now we're going to have massive deflation. It's orchestrated for the purpose of transferring wealth.
Quit assuming that the vast majority of politicians are against this and do NOT assume that any President is. For those that think 'the Messiah' is so different, please notice that he said in the 60 Minutes interview this weekend "deficits don't matter". Hmmmm... where have I heard that before.
They're all the same. Quit holding onto the hope of some government hero to save you and just play the game.
I wish we could have a show of hands. 460 people online - how many realize the Fed isn't part of the government, at all...
Bloomberg apparently doesn't since they are suing under the Freedom of Information Act which only applies to government agencies. The privately held Fed laughed their asses off no doubt when they got that lawsuit.
Not Federal.
No Reserves.
Simple.
lastly, the "no reserves" point should explain why they HAD to do the TARP. They lost our money and they needed more of it.
Bush abandoned the rest of TARP because Democrats won't give him any more, and Republicans in Congress won't vote for any further money regardless of who requests it.
The only hope is that Democrats are too fearful of passing TARP-The Sequel on their votes alone in January.
FYI: The U.S. Treasury Department auctioned $27 billion in 13-week bills on Monday.
The auction drew a yield of 0.150%, with 82.3% of bills allotted at this rate. The bid-to-cover ratio for the auction, a statistic that measures demand for the securities, came in at 3.14.
The maturity date for the bills is February 19th, 2009.
FYI: T-bills are issued through a competitive bidding process at a discount from par, which means that rather than paying fixed interest payments like conventional bonds, the appreciation of the bond provides the return to the holder.
\tFor example, let's say you buy a 13-week T-bill priced at $9,800. Essentially, the U.S. government (and its nearly bulletproof credit rating) writes you an IOU for $10,000 that it agrees to pay back in three months. You will not receive regular payments as you would with a coupon bond, for example. Instead, the appreciation - and, therefore, the value to you - comes from the difference between the discounted value you originally paid and the amount you receive back ($10,000). In this case, the T-bill pays a 2.04% interest rate ($200/$9,800 = 2.04%) over a three-month period.
Look at previous bid-to-cover ratio's, closer to 2.77% as a high and now this ratio of 3.32, which is based on almost a year's worth of $22 billion plus averages; pretty soon, this is gonna be real money!
Bloomberg apparently doesn't since they are suing under the Freedom of Information Act which only applies to government agencies. The privately held Fed laughed their asses off no doubt when they got that lawsuit.
Gamma:
The Federal Reserve System is a dual public and private institution. The FR banks themselves are private and owned by the member banks. On the other hand, the Board of Governors is an independent Federal Agency, to which the FOIA does apply. Of course, there are numerous exemptions from FOIA requests.
This notion that our infrastructure is "crumbling" is a sham too. Nothing but a politically correct excuse to spend money we don't have or need to spend.
Highlights
Demand for T-bills remains extreme, demand that reveals extreme uncertainty over the global outlook. Stop-out rates for both the 3-month and 6-month bills, at 0.15 percent and 0.84 percent, are among the lowest since the mid-September crash. Despite very large auction sizes of $27 billion, bid-to-cover ratios were very strong at 3.14 for the 3-month auction and 3.38 for the 6-month.
Basel Too writes:
"The Federal Reserve System is a dual public and private institution. The FR banks themselves are private and owned by the member banks. On the other hand, the Board of Governors is an independent Federal Agency, to which the FOIA does apply. Of course, there are numerous exemptions from FOIA requests."
About 10 years ago we sued the Fed for breach of government procurement regs (re a network security installation) and they immediately settled rather than litigate this exact issue. There may be precedent since then, but it is a very touchy issue among government procurement attorneys.
The T-bill demand is not as add as it seems. Many money market funds are holding toxic crap and would have broken the buck absent the fed's alphabet soup facilities.
One prime money market fund (from a major broker dealer) I looked at had 3% of its assets classified as level 3 (entities with names like "Whistle Jacket").
A lot of crap is masquerading as money these days. The fed knows this and is trying to engineer a soft a crash landing as possible.
Frankly, I believe that they simply stopped it since:
A. The hubris of some financials to take money and then offer bonuses showed that the windows are indeed sufficient;
B. That the banks gamed them horribly;
C. That a lot of Americans are sitting there watching everybody and their uncle show up for their "fair share";
D. That some of OB's folks asked that something be left over for some realistic spending since with the coming deficits, they can't just piss the money away.
Angry Saver writes:
This notion that our infrastructure is "crumbling" is a sham too. Nothing but a politically correct excuse to spend money we don't have or need to spend.
Angry Saver | 11.17.08 - 4:32 pm | #
i cant completely agree with you Saver. i know for a fact that the water distribution piping of much of the country is in a sorry state. much of it put in the ground by low-bid contractors using poor or untested materials. lots of that pipe will need to be dug up in the near future- most by individual cities and municipalities who depend on ratepayers or property taxes. I cant speak to highways and such, but that is my experience with water utilities
Soft crash...WTF? Jumping off a 15 foot bridge will be soft....jumping of the Hoover Dam will KILL you! The economy is a walking corpse and will be exposed...soon. Just as soon a Q2-09' profits come out. The P&E's of the Fortune 500 will resemble your grand mammas piggy bank...broken and raided by all the grankids....empty. There will be signs and wonders in the days that follow. All the current market data and historical data will be thrown out because it will truly be a new world because this is global baby!
i know for a fact that the water distribution piping of much of the country is in a sorry state. much of it put in the ground by low-bid contractors using poor or untested materials. lots of that pipe will need to be dug up in the near future
I've personally laid many many miles of water systems. 3/4" up to 36" dia. It's hard for me to believe systems in general will fail. They are not that complicated. Idiot proof really. Further, everything I have ever done or seen is thoroughly tested and inspected.
Goldman Sachs says they will forego bonuses this year, and the next thing you know, Hank says he doesn't need the other $350 billion. Gives you an idea what kind of bonuses they were expecting.
One tragedy does not prove that our infrastructure is crumbling. In fact, the utter scarcity of tragedies or even minor incidents argues my point.
Angry Saver | 11.17.08 - 4:59 pm | #
Exactly! I say we set our goals on becoming like Mexico. Or Argentina. I think we're half way there.
it's been obvious for a few weeks that Congress would not readily approve disbursement of the next $350B and that it would no rake the Bush Admn over the coals for its ineptness.
The first $350B did not produce any full solution. To some extent it temporarily eased the crisis. But some parts of the money were virtually stolen (i.e., given away) and the whole episode (plus the election) confirms to total bankruptcy of the Bush Admn.
So here is how things stand:
1) The economic crisis is real and geting worse. GM, etc, is on the ropes and ready to drop. The Bush Admn can do nothing because it lacks the ingenuity to craft a plan and it lacks the political capital to get it passed, and if it had a plan and got it passed then it lacks the competence to execute it.
2) The political ground is laid for major action by Obama in January. The Bush Admn is making things worse. Congress may or may not be able to craft a band aid in the lame duck session. Almost no matter what happens between now and Jan 20, however, Obama will come into office with A) massive political capital, B) a devatstating economic crisis to address, and C) a competent team of players even none of us on the left or the right are fully happy with his choice of personnel from a policy perspective (e.g., I am critical of Rubin and Summers on policy grounds, but they are titans of competence compared to Paulson, and comparing Obama to Bush on grounds of competence is a total laugher).
In terms of politics and economics and policy and execution, this needs to be seen as a process. Each step sets up the next.
"For those that think 'the Messiah' is so different, please notice that he said in the 60 Minutes interview this weekend "deficits don't matter". Hmmmm... where have I heard that before."
Your derogatory terminology tells us all that one would need to know about the amount of information in your post. For the record, he didn't say that "deficits don't matter". That's what Bloomberg used as their story intro title. What he said was this:
"And that we shouldnt worry about the deficit next year or even the year after. That short term, the most important thing is that we avoid a deepening recession."
And he's right, in the short term we need stimulative spending.
Plus, I notice that you leave out these other statements that he made regarding our fiscal situation:
"Ten years from now, we may have dug ourselves such a deep hole when it comes to our fiscal health that some of those problems are irreversible."
"I would start by engaging in some honest budgeting, because one of the things that this President has done over the last six years is engage in a lot of smoke and mirrors budgeting, and it's done incredible damage to our long-term fiscal health."
Here's what the American Society of Civil Engineers says:
I've been reading ASCE's reports for decades. They are hardly an unbiased and objective source.
FWIW, I have a BS in Civil Engineering and am a former ASCE member. I am also an owner of an infrastructure company. I would benefit greatly from infrastructure spending. However, indebting future generations to pave over our country in order to bailout financial foolishness is not something I want to see. Especially after seeing how high oil soared during the last bout of global "prosperity".
We do have infrastructure needs. But again, the notion that our infrastructure is crumbling is bogus - an expedient excuse to justify an expansion of government spending. It will do more damage than good.
We do have infrastructure needs. But again, the notion that our infrastructure is crumbling is bogus - an expedient excuse to justify an expansion of government spending. It will do more damage than good.
Angry Saver | 11.17.08 - 6:52 pm | #
I can tell you that the beach towns in NC definitely need spending for infrastructure. Years of idiots in charge who did not spend on maintenance have left us with raw sewage being pumped into our waterways. It is horrible.
All you have to do it read Paul Warburg's account of the Fed. He is after all the chief architect of the Fed here in the States and his family was heavily involved with central banking in Europe. The regional banks of the Fed were created to give the impression of decentralized power and the government appointed positions and the name "Federal" were created to give the impression of being public.
OhNotNotAgain -
Are you familiar with Colonel House? Keep thinking that you're being offered a "choice" and enjoy living in fantasy land. Poltiical representatives - which parties are ALLOWED to particpate in a meaningful way and who will be a major contender in the primaries - is a controlled process. And where exactly was I "derrogatory"? You've got pretty thin skin if you think it's demeaning to sarcastically refer to someone as 'the messiah'. Also, don't assume that because I don't buy into the Obama-savior bullshit, that I am against him. That said, Keynesian-economics got us in this mess and he is applying a Keynesian solution to the problem. That's not new and it's not change and it won't work. McSame would have the same Keynesian toolset too. I'm unimpressed with both.
"I've been reading ASCE's reports for decades. They are hardly an unbiased and objective source."
Okay, so go ahead and compile data that shows otherwise. Right now you're simply stating something without backing it up with any sort of evidence at all. Show us how the data and reports that they use for the report card are biased and not objective.
"Are you familiar with Colonel House? Keep thinking that you're being offered a "choice" and enjoy living in fantasy land. Poltiical representatives - which parties are ALLOWED to particpate in a meaningful way and who will be a major contender in the primaries - is a controlled process."
Please, sell that bill of goods elsewhere. It's lazy short-hand for not having to give a shit about our government. "It's all corrupt, so therefore I don't have to actually participate." See, I get to do nothing and still complain !
"And where exactly was "derrogatory"? You've got pretty thin skin if you think it's demeaning to sarcastically refer to someone as 'the messiah'."
It's demeaning to those that voted for him and worked to get him elected, and that's exactly why you said it. It's the same reason why a some posters here, like yourself, regard everyone that invests something of themselves in the political process as fools. Oh, to be as cool as you someday. One can only hope.....
"Also, don't assume that because I don't buy into the Obama-savior bullshit, that I am against him."
I didn't say anything of the sort. And thanks for proving my point. How many people have you honestly heard refer to him in such a manner ? The only people that do are those like yourself that are looking to score cheap points by coming up with some lame-ass name. People did it with Bush, and as much as I hated that guy, he was still our President and I called him by his actual name. Anything else is just grade-school insults.
"That said, Keynesian-economics got us in this mess and he is applying a Keynesian solution to the problem."
How exactly did Keynesian economics get us into this mess ? I sense the words "fiat currency" coming soon.
"That's not new and it's not change and it won't work. McSame would have the same Keynesian toolset too. I'm unimpressed with both."
Okay, so why won't infrastructure spending work, what is your solution ? Just saying it won't work doesn't count. It worked pretty damn well under Roosevelt, and we're dealing with a similar type of deflation scenario.
I invested plenty in the political process and along with a minority in this country I had the COURAGE to vote for someone I actually wanted in office (Ron Paul). Undoubtedly plenty of Obama supporters liked him, but MANY voted for him simply because they hate the other side.
Regarding Obama's "savior" status - are you blind? Have you heard the expectations? People around the world think things will be substantially differnt. My aunt and uncle just went to Israel, Jordan, etc. for vacation. Muslims in the West Bank think he represents change for them. Haahhahahahah - with a Jewish cabinet. I think not. The only reason I use this example is to show how blinded people are. More of the same. We have one party. Grab your courage and vote in a true 2nd party after you finish your 4 years of disappointment.
If you believe Bush is not going to grab $350B before heading for Paraguay, you have been asleep for the past eight years.
The money and pardons are the two items on the must do list.
Nemo!
Oaaahh yeah
There goes my plan to incorporate into a bank.
¡oɯǝu
should be good news
log(e)
Let obama blow the other half
hank to kashnkarry: back the truck up, we'll take whats left
Does this mean Christmas is canceled?
So,
Does this mean Paulson and Mini Paulson are done? Does Government Sachs finally walk off ito the sunsent?
Hey, I guess they decided to save some cash for next years wall street bonuses.
Push the GM/City/State et al bailouts right back into the lap of congress.
left the next sec treas some walking aroung mondy?
This is obviously in response to Congress / MSM waking up to the reality of the TARP...
It's a big fat scam!
OT - Thinking about PPI tomorrow. My sense is the number will tank showing the deflation in the economy with commodities falling off a cliff and lack of demand for goods driving prices down the drain.
I am considering taking 1/2 my TBT position off so I can step back in after a mini bond rally ?
(read before posting, hitting head on desk)
I thought they needed $700 Billion right then or the whole system was going to fail?
I guess this sucker "is" going to blow
I thought they needed $700 Billion right then or the whole system was going to fail?
Now that they've lost the election they don't really give a shit.
Kinda like sticking it only halfway up our collective arses and breaking it off.
Gee I feel much better now.
/sarcasm
Fed,
"I thought they needed $700 Billion right then or the whole system was going to fail?"
This mal-administration and lie got confused where?
Nostrovia,
Hey is that a 'Bart Simpson' in progress?!
I have a feeling Obama is going to use the rest of the $350B for his economic stimulus plan and auto bailouts...
Depending on whether you are an optimist or a pessimist, our children (and children's children) were either just saved 350 Billion, or robbed of only 350 Billion.
The 350 Billion can was just kicked down the road. That's a good thing.
Damn, I guess my TARP money is gone too. I was going to fix the big hole in the parking lot. Needed about 50Mil or so.
And these are the same people that know where all the Secret Buttons are.
Comrade Baron Von Helmut III,
"Kinda like sticking it only halfway up our collective arses and breaking it off.
Gee I feel much better now."
Splinter removal sucks...So I've heard.
Nostrovia,
Nice way to PASS THE BUCK, all $350 billion of them. Just sayin...
I see this as some people in the Bush admin gaining the upper hand vs Paulson in advising the President. Bush is thinking about his "legacy", and given the fact that Paulson's flailing around with the first half of the TARP has been a miserable failure I can see Bush deciding to cut PR losses on this. Could be wrong, but seems plausible to me. Paulson has been such an abomination...
At least leave something there. Hanky-Poo already made his sweet deal with the banks at twice the going rate...anymore of those and we'd be seeing some jail time...not that they don't deserve it already.
Ciao
MS
Push the GM/City/State et al bailouts right back into the lap of congress.
Bingo. There's no way Shelby, Bachus, etc. can refuse to bail out Detroit while the banks are slopping at the trough.
But there is this:
White House spokesman Tony Fratto neither confirmed nor disputed their account, adding that any decision about the use of the remaining $350 billion was up to Paulson.
"He said he's working to continue to design and develop programs, and when it's the right time to use them Treasury will announce it. And if it then makes sense to go to Congress, he'll recommend we request to drawdown the second $350 billion," Fratto said.
And this:
U.S. Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Burlington) announced Monday that he will introduce legislation to prevent the release of the remaining $350 billion available to the Bush Administration under the Wall Street rescue package passed in early October.
I do not believe that GM can wait until Jan 20th, and then the additional lag of any bridge loans to be implemented.
If GM doesn't get this worked about in 30 days, they go under.
I don't understand the logic either. There is only one president at a time, so do your f-ing job until you are no longer president. geez.
Something smells fishy...something's rotten in Denmark...
They wouldn't just say, "ahh fuck it"?
These guys are the ultimate scoundrels...there's gotta be a reason that benefits THEM: Bush, Paulson et al. or that fucks the other guy.
The 1st thing that comes to mind is that the bailout $$$ is really farcical anyway. That all of the trillions in off-book valuation and $$$ being thrown at these corporations OUTSIDE the reach of TARP makes the TARP itself look pretty insignificant.
Zombie Kung Fu Panda,
"and given the fact that Paulson's flailing around with the first half of the TARP has been a miserable failure I can see Bush deciding to cut PR losses on this. Could be wrong, but seems plausible to me. Paulson has been such an abomination..."
I don't think Shrubboy has enough firing neurons for this level of high level thought. And I only have 3 to begin with. Well...OK...3 is a bit sketchy at time.
Nostrovia,
They can't just do that!
I needed that $350 Billion to cover my gambling losses at the World Series of Poker on ESPN last night.
What WILL I do now? What will happen to this country and the world economy, if I don't get MY BAILOUT in time!?
Oh the shame of it all.
I guess that means I have to get a real job producing something of real value to real people.
Better get started. The intrest on my debt is already counting upwards.
Near 4/5ths of the electorate trust O to do better than B. We should be thankful.
Hooray! Restraint at last from Bush!
Should have done this two months ago -- no to bailouts -- and McPain would have won the election.
Let's see what 'change' we get from O-.
GM and their union said they would go under if no pony before O gets in...let the BK watch begin!
o.k., now I'm going to wash the ick off and try to stick to merely off-color remarks, sometimes prescient and even possibly relevant.
Mr. Market is so weird right now.... jam or blam?
IBM presents "You Make The Call"
(I vote we close -100).
crispy: Doesn't GM WANT to go BK to get out of the pension mess?
Comrade-Dope jg (jg) writes:
Hooray! Restraint at last from Bush!
RESTRAINT!
Where was it for the last 7 years and 10 months?
This guy doubles the national debt, incurs trillions off the book, and has twin deficits the like of which have never been seen before.
COME ON!
Restraint.
My arse!
The evolution of TARP:
1) We must buy these troubled assets! No other approach is worth considering!
2) $700B is the absolute minimum we must have to convince the markets!
3) Uh, perhaps it would be better to start by buying equity in banks...
4) Uh, let's forget about buying troubled assets... (shame it's too late to change the damned name of the program...)
5) Wow, look at the line outside!
6) The rest of the $700B? No thanks, maybe the next folks will think of something creative to do with it.
7) Not. Our. Problem. Any. More. kthxbai!
I just hope Wagonner gets fired, he has done a horrible job. If he makes more than min wage he is over paid.
I believe the head of UAW is before congress today, pleading for a bridge-loan.
The argument being, "GM was on the road to recovery making the right moves, diversifying it's car-lines, until the 'hoocoodanode event of 2008 occurred' and now we need the money"...
Hope he has big high resolution pictures of the rust-belt and tells them that the rest of America could look like this...
I thought Hanky Panky needed that money so fast, it was worth a 3-page outline of a plan.
Now this!
What is this economy coming to?
Nothing more than a 1920s back-room, boiler-room, smoke-filled gaming parlor with cheap bootled booze and even cheaper and faster women.
Why does bubblevision bring the same tired old perma-bulls like Vince Farrel on? All he ever says is "buy" and "the bad news is priced in"
I don't get it: where's the market reaction on this? Seemingly no reaction.
the problem with BK now for GM is that it will likely lead to liquidation, since the dear old credit crisis has a crunch on DIP financeing (debtor in possession) therefore no potential for reorganizatio
As noted by commentators in past threads, Chapter 11 for GM isn't really feasible unless banks underwrite DIP loans which doesn't seem likely.
The market is so confused. Is this good news that we are OK without this money or bad that we're cut off.
blackhat,
"o.k., now I'm going to wash the ick off and try to stick to merely off-color remarks, sometimes prescient and even possibly relevant."
Most of us called the going over the cliff a while ago. We're in fall mode now. The whoosh is the air going by. And that thing growing larger beneath us is no longer round...hmmm...what should I call it...gr...ground.
Thanks Douglas Adams.
Knurd!
Nostrovia,
mal, was thinking the same. I wonder how long the big players have known.
Vince Farrel is really just recorded and replayed all the time.
Haven't you noticed the guy is always wearing the same clothes and the background is always the same.
Same ol, same ol w/him.
Doesn't GM WANT to go BK to get out of the pension mess?
I think part of the problem is defining who "GM" is.
Management?
Current workers?
Pensioners?
Creditors?
Shareholders?
Nards to the Wall:
You are just too quick.
It could be a play to try to keep the Big 3's hands out of TARP.
I guess they feel that stealing the WHOLE $700 billion would look a little greedy....
Wait, no one wanted this terrible bailout to pass,and then when Bush stops the 2nd 350B he's condemmed for not allowing Pauslon to blow the whole amount?
Sure.
I can't wait till the Messiah comes and fixes everything.
It's Airport '08... "There's no one flying the plane!!!"
Paulson probably doesn't want to appear before Congess again. Too bad, it would be a great show.
Enron Nation writes:
I guess they feel that stealing the WHOLE $700 billion would look a little greedy....
Enron Nation | 11.17.08 - 3:32 pm | #
LOL!
Greedy. That amount would make them look like charitable paupers.
steelhead writes:
As noted by commentators in past threads, Chapter 11 for GM isn't really feasible unless banks underwrite DIP loans which doesn't seem likely.
This is an excellent point. Enter Taxpayer.
/Treasury drags duffle bag out of car trunk, opens bag, let's taxpayer out, who squints to adjust to the light
/clubs taxpayer over the head again.
/instructs goons: "check him again for money"
FWIW I've noticed a lot more people hanging around parking lots and fast food restaurants not doing anything the past few weeks. Likewise I've noticed a bunch more "For Sale" signs hanging in cars.
Anybody else noticing similar things?
This is not good. This means that they have no clue on how to fix the problem.
Party like it's 1929!
More of us on the hook via taxes.
Considering the future of this economy, when do we all say "Screw this taxation" and just quit, go home, watch ESPN, and eat doritos for the rest of our lives?
I am truly being serious.
My faith has been slightly restored.
Meanwhile, for those seeking an exit from the commenting insanity here, I continue to offer up my own little forum (see link below). Anyone can post provided they're capable of reading the shared password and typing it in. I've just opened a new thread "Should the next administration spend the remaining $350B no longer being used for TARP, and if so, how?"
The advantage of a forum over this comment-stream is that ideas are better threaded and preserved. But there won't be the chat-room atmosphere that is present here. (I could perhaps add chat-room functionality if folks were interested...)
I also opened up a simple little Wiki on the site to allow folks to hash over ideas in a collaborative fashion. BondGirl and others were interested in that last Friday...
steelhead writes: As noted by commentators in past threads, Chapter 11 for GM isn't really feasible unless banks underwrite DIP loans which doesn't seem likely.
The compromise is clear. Instead of a bailout, have Congress pass a law to underwrite the DIP loans (or make the needed emergency changes to BK law) to allow GM to survive a Chapter 11.
FYI:
You may want to keep an eye on this:
Country ratings Tuesday, 4 November 2008
https://entry.credit-suisse.ch/csfs/p/cb/en/tradefinance/landinfo/lio_laenderratings.jsp
It appears the 350B covered up what it intended to coverup....
"there's no one flying the planet"
TARP was creating a problem in the CDS market. Triggers and margins.
****Repost from last thread. For EHP, MS/Ciao, or anyone with thoughts on this matter:
EHP (evilhenrypaulson):
If you are around I would like to ask an earnest question about a comment you made a couple days ago. It was in regard to Switzerland being at the front of the line for a currency/banking attack.
I agree that the Swiss are in trouble. However, I am not knowledgeable enough to know what the spells for their currency (Swiss Franc). Earlier in the year the CHF was following the JPY as riskier currencies were falling. More recently, the CHF is now following the Euro lower --- clearly not benefiting from carry unwind like the JPY. When Swiss Banking takes the next major hit, do you think the CHF continues to follow the Euro lower? It seems the CHF is even in a worse position than the Euro and GBP as Swiss interest rates are pretty low. In any case, any thoughts/comments you could provide would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
One thing investors really hate is stable politicial environments.
And, kinda wonder if this was to back away from any ratings review...got keep that AAA
ac,
"FWIW I've noticed a lot more people hanging around parking lots and fast food restaurants not doing anything the past few weeks. Likewise I've noticed a bunch more "For Sale" signs hanging in cars.
Anybody else noticing similar things?"
Well I saw a white guy with tool belt hanging about an illegal alien day worker spot. If that counts.
Nostrovia,
The compromise is clear. Instead of a bailout, have Congress pass a law to underwrite the DIP loans (or make the needed emergency changes to BK law) to allow GM to survive a Chapter 11.
I'd be in favor of this, if the current equity and debt holders get wiped.
I'm guessing Bill Gross would not be in favor.
That extra 350B...was blown on the G20 Economic Meltdown Bash...
check out the menu at the White House site:
404 Page Not Found | The White House
that wine ain't cheap
Buuuuuuuuuuuuurpppppppp
Steelhead: As noted by commentators in past threads, Chapter 11 for GM isn't really feasible unless banks underwrite DIP loans which doesn't seem likely.
If the UAW didn't have so many high paying jobs and clout, I could see the govt guaranteeing banks' DIP loans to GM.
But with the UAW's clout and massive amount of jobs on the line, I think GM gets a regular bailout without bankruptcy (in the short-run at least).
There is nothing preventing the current Congress from drafting a bill to address the needs of the Big 3 and submitting it to Bush. It's easier for them to sit back and finger point. The Messiah could have shown "Presidential" leadership in the Senate and thrown his weight around. I guess the BCS was more important.
Bush is far from ideal, but let's be fair here. Both he and Congress are scoundrels.
Kinda funny..CR usually tags a little quip at the end of these and for this one, nothing.
Well this is the first good piece of news I have heard in a long time.
Except of course that it doesn't make any sense and I am sure there is some terrible reason for why they are backing off on TARP that they are just not telling us.
WTF is going on?
Well I saw a white guy with tool belt hanging about an illegal alien day worker spot. If that counts.
Nostrovia,
Comrade Misean is Dope
LOL!
This is a very short post, please consider it as being a well thought out post before responding.
"The first $350 billion not only didn't work it made things worse."
If you accept that conclusion the subsequent responses make sense.
re DIP loans for GM in BK. These loans are ahead of all other creditors so would probably get funded privately. If not, US could guarantee which is cheaper than a bailout. See WSJ article today.
tin foil hat stuff, i know, but wouldnt letting the big3 implode be a great way to disappear the UAW? not that the current PTB would have any reason to want labor unions broken, of course...
--
Gangistan is alive and well despite disarray among the gang leaders.
Dopeland gets to watch the show. For free! Or, is it?!!
Jas
Comrade Baron Von Helmut III writes:
Wait, no one wanted this terrible bailout to pass,and then when Bush stops the 2nd 350B he's condemmed for not allowing Pauslon to blow the whole amount?
The reason being Bush has yet again displayed an extraordinary lack of credibility and confidence. Bush/Paulson wanted $700B up front to buy troubled assets or else. They bought no troubled assets, only drew half the amount and yet the Sky didn't fall.
No $700B, no troubled asset reverse auctions, no WMD's in Iraq, etc.
Bill Payer - I'm eating cake, and washing it down with re-used water.
thanks wisdom I will use.
"The first $350 billion not only didn't work it made things worse."
Subsidizing failure, incompetence, and quasi-criminal activity make things worse?
Hoocoodanode!
Mr. T,
"Except of course that it doesn't make any sense and I am sure there is some terrible reason for why they are backing off on TARP that they are just not telling us."
Ah, sorry, you missed the call. China phoned and told Shrubboy if the rest of the TRAP was extended, they'd have to find new buyers.
Nostrovia,
OT-auto news
DETROIT -- General Motors will delay incentive payments to dealers next week in an effort to save cash.
The payments for dealer cash, customer cash and other incentives will be delayed from Nov. 28 until Dec. 11, Mark LaNeve, GM's vice president of North American sales, service and marketing, said in an interview with Automotive News.
Letters to dealers explaining the delay are to be sent today, LaNeve said.
He declined to estimate the amount of delayed payments. On average, GM spends about $3,600 per unit in incentives, according to Edmunds.com. Based on GM's U.S. October sales, the company sold about 84,000 vehicles in two weeks. That amounts to total incentive payments of about $302.4 million for two weeks.
more then 100 down....
my guess....
Ciao
MS
New WSJ story up - looks like no bailout for the Crappy 3...lets see if they were lying about runnning our of cash before 1/20
A New Assertiveness on Economy - WSJ.com
TARP ll, will be a new Obama Program, which will fund TARP in a different way ... hmmmm
TARP money will be incorporated into the new 2 TRILLION dollar Obama plan...10K cash to everyone immediately and new jobs building bridges, roads, other infrastructure...a la...TVA of the 30's. Sleep well for tomorrow we build!
Careful, it might be a TRAP.
TARP...I smell an investigation coming o
v-
can't really offer anything to you on that. Euro short is really the only thing I've ever done, currency wise.
I can't imagine is spells anything other than trouble for any fiat currency though.
Ciao
MS
Dollar should like this news. Maybe bonds too.
They are going to spin this as so:
The first $350B worked so well we don't need anymore.
Money Man
Where did you hear the details of the Obama plan?
cd writes:
OT-auto news
This is a nothingburger. Dealerships have tonso cash right now so they can cough up the incentives the automaker promised.
(PS If this applies to already sold cars, and I think it doe, a few might be pretty ticked off right now. And, God where is lawyerliz!, it may be grounds to return the purchase.)
TARP was an acronym for Troubled Asset Repurchase Program, right? Assets have not or will not be re purchased. A new acronym is in order. I suggest BARF. Bank Assets Recapitalization Fund.
"Most of us called the going over the cliff a while ago. We're in fall mode now. The whoosh is the air going by. And that thing growing larger beneath us is no longer round...hmmm...what should I call it...gr...ground."
That's odd. We just spoke with someone this morning who dreamed that his rottweiler jumped off a cliff, landed in a lake, and broke her back.
Do you believe in collective anxious dreaming?
Like everything in Bushworld this is calculated politics.
They realize that the public are becoming dimly aware of the criminal level of fraud and deceit involved in these so-called bailouts.
THe long-term plan is to pin this whole mess on the dems, never mind that Dubya was on watch as "The Decider" for the whole run up to disaster.
So they are gonna leave a $350 billion honey pot to temp the hated dems. It's already been authorized, so who can imagine that the democrats will be able to avoid doling it out to industry, cities, states, whoever comes begging?
When the full scope of the disaster becomes apparent even to Joe Twelve-pack and Susy Soccer Mom the Repugs jump up in outrage and claim it's all the fault of those dirty free-spending dems who will steal your money and give it to their chums!
End result = 4 painful Obama years followed by Palin in '12. Karl Rove and buddies really do have the whole clever-evil thing down!
If any of the domestic brands go out, wouldn't that be offset with employment gains on the Japanese brands? I remember Dryfly writing that the Japanese brands probably have more value added in the US than the US brands.
The whole car market is going into the toilet, so it won't be as easy to measure the migration of jobs to Japanese brands. It sure won't be easy to sell it to J6P either.
barley-
dealers don't have tons of cash right now..they are shutting down...
Reid is another idiot. He could be begging for money to bail out virtually anything, like the candy industry, or makers of beer -- IMHO, the flaw in this thinking is to bail out shit companies that failed from either having shit business plans or fraud accounting. How does saving a few car jobs restart an economy that failed because of accounting fraud and derivative bullshit on wall street? Reid is looking for a scapegoat and he needs to look in the mirror!
If that fails, he will seek a vote on the auto industry bailout and the unemployment benefits, Reid said. It could come as early as Wednesday.
"If we move forward, we can protect and create American jobs, help working families and prevent our economy from falling even further into recession," Reid said as he opened a postelection session. "I ask my colleagues to show the American people that in the face of tremendous economic pain and uncertainty, we will not wait until January."
Rally on any news of hope...plunge on actual figures released because they are "fluffed" anyway. Truth is leaking out slower than the money that is running away. Those left are in paralysis and can't figure if the headlights coming their way are 100 yards off or 100 feet. Either way the road runner gets flattened. Smart money is like Bugs Bunny...under ground and outta sight.
My it is because they now have some oversite folks
Do you believe in collective anxious dreaming?
Pavel Chichikov
Yes.
"...but wouldnt letting the big3 implode be a great way to disappear the UAW?"
That might be like sticking dynamite in your ear and lighting a fuse to cure a headache.
can't really offer anything to you on that. Euro short is really the only thing I've ever done, currency wise.
I've done Yen long and Euro short trades both indirectly via options on ETFs.
They both worked out very well but looking back I got out of them too early.
They were some of the most profitable trades I've ever done and I just stopped and never looked at them again. It didn't seem real or sane somehow and that always scares me away.
Wow, after this news the DOW is still heading sideways?
How long has it been since we've seen sideways movement for a few hours??? Has to be weeks, if not months!
DETROIT -- General Motors will delay incentive payments to dealers next week in an effort to save cash.
The payments for dealer cash, customer cash and other incentives will be delayed from Nov. 28 until Dec. 11, Mark LaNeve, GM's vice president of North American sales, service and marketing, said in an interview with Automotive News.
Letters to dealers explaining the delay are to be sent today, LaNeve said.
He declined to estimate the amount of delayed payments. On average, GM spends about $3,600 per unit in incentives, according to Edmunds.com. Based on GM's U.S. October sales, the company sold about 84,000 vehicles in two weeks. That amounts to total incentive payments of about $302.4 million for two weeks.
Are they messing with the holdback money too? I can tell you this will mess with the dealers, especially the GM. Most dealers are running very thin margins and are having difficulty with equity lines.
Not a good sign.
So.. $350B was wasted in this program? That means I just spent more than $1000 on hookers and booze, only it was somebody else's party and I was not invited. Not cool.
The next president and Congress will dutifully request, approve, and distribute the monies, but will do so to a slightly different pool of applicants.
cd - that was tounge and cheek
It's already been authorized, so who can imagine that the democrats will be able to avoid doling it out to industry, cities, states, whoever comes begging?
Nice theory, but one critical flaw; the remaining $350B has not been authorized.
Notice the headline reads "Administration will not seek remaining TARP Funds". It doesn't say that they will return or refuse the remaining funds. It says that they will not "seek" it from Congress.
Remember, as a check, Frank wanted the $700B to be released in multiple installments, with the first $350B paid immediately. The second $350B would be released after the Sect. of the Treasury asked for it AND if Congress approved the request.
Summers/Geithner/or whoever can still seek the remaining $350B.
Paulson, Bernanke, Bush, Wicks, Franks, Pelosi, Reid, etc, all have to be accountable for the loss of TARP funds; they should all go to prison for fraud and then be hung for Treason!
I'm officially worried again. BAC dec 12.5p's @ 1.17.
i'm selling some , but have little confidence.
TARP Clawback Anyone?
Pavel Chichikov,
That's odd. We just spoke with someone this morning who dreamed that his rottweiler jumped off a cliff, landed in a lake, and broke her back.
Do you believe in collective anxious dreaming?
Im a huge fan of Herbert possibly.
Nostrovia,
LOL BTW!
General Motors will delay incentive payments to dealers next week in an effort to save cash.
Sounds like a Ponzi scheme. GM is waiting for the money from the sales of more cars to pay back the dealers money that they owe. Another strategy would be for GM to Choke off the weak dealers since there are too many anyways... Lawsuits and angry dealers be damned.
The only reason Li' Shrub would do this is because the Repubs told him they were going to vote down any request from him for more money. The knives are out.
RE CHF:
There were a lot of mortgages to Eastern Euro countries in francs rather than the currency of the borrower. Hungary is a good example. Should be a lot of defaults on those loans as implosion of EE currencies vs franc makes payments impossible. A factor to consider.
So, GM has knock-on effects that far exceed its $3.6b market cap. 4% of GDP? $160b in parts? Maybe hundreds of billions in swaps?
Why is someone not taking advantage of this arbitrage opportunity?
Short SSO, long 51% of GM for about $900m. Declare bankruptcy, tell Congress to stuff a bailout package.
I am still amazed that TARP was passed without one pre-disclosed line item for expected usage.
Interesting piece on CNBC's site, how much has been spent on the crisis so far?
4.28 trillion
Financial Crisis Tab Already In The Trillions and Counting - CNBC
I sat next to someone on a plane a while back who worked for GM. He was a retired top dealer who counseled dealerships on profitability. His schtick was telling them to make a world-class service center and that both service profits and customer loyalty would follow. He said the majority ignored his advice and concentrated on sales. I hope some more listened to him eventually.
The next president and Congress will dutifully request, approve, and distribute the monies, but will do so to a slightly different pool of applicants.
Yeah I don't think the goal is to refrain from the destruction of money by handing it out without judgment (which is the sole manner in which money achieves value). I think the plan is simply to hand it out in more politically and consumption oriented ways.
I think you might hear about that $350 billion going directly to consumers via a stimulus package now maybe with a supplement to get it up to $500 billion or so.
When in doubt, go Weimar.
Lurker
This is not counting the guarantees put behind FRE/FNM
CRVIX above 50 day .
Approaching top bollinger band
Misean:
ill just leave this here.
<a ref="http://www.aeriagloris.com/Resources/FrankHerbertEssay/>Frank Herbert essays
Nice theory, but one critical flaw; the remaining $350B has not been authorized.
Seems like if it goes to the voters though the legislation can get done in a heartbeat.
--
"Subsidizing failure, incompetence, and quasi-criminal activity make things worse?"
ac,
Great summary of the American system as it exists and not as it is theoretically suppose to.
Residents of Dopeland can do nothing more than watch.
Jas
PS: I will be in the Greater Dopeland for the next 12 days.
Wow,
This thread could be a clinical example for bias.
Those that hate Bush presume evil intent - though ironically split between calling him a chimp and an evil mastermind.
Those that don't hate Bush presume that this is the result of fiscal restraint.
Sadly enough, the only thing that everyone can agree on is that no one likes G.W. Bush.
Until more supporting data emerges, perhaps we should hold off on pronouning this to be good or evil.
CRVIX above 50 day .
Approaching top bollinger band
The actual index or the futures?
CRVIX above 50 day .
I think there has been a bump due to the CR companion. ALso, more folks are on now that we can ignore the idiots.
One of the alleged reasons for the TARP was the new "DominoE Theory." Systemic players all have large CDS exposure and once one pops they ALL pop. Then we have received conflicting news on the size of the final CDS settlemenets for Lehman. I have seen s0me state it is less than $10b. But some continue to state it is over $300b. Which is it?
I ask as the CDS on GM has a notional value of $1T. I have no idea who the counter-party is, but considering how cavalier the Repulicans and Paulson are I would guess it is not AIG.
No matter who the counter-party are CDS no longer a talking point when it comes to BK?
Bailed out of another 1/4 of my Nov 85 SPY puts here.
"bail out the beermakers" by all means
Obama, guilt by association!
Xerox?
Sadly enough, the only thing that everyone can agree on is that no one likes G.W. Bush.
He is, was, and will always be a faux leader. The best thing he can do right now is stay the hell out of the way.
4 minutes to minus 200
"When in doubt, go Weimar."
My God, I was just looking at photographs from the Weimar era.
A joke went that a shopper left her basket outside a shop. It contained a few trillion marks. When she got back the marks were still there but the basket had been stolen.
The financials are not liking this news. SKF up 10%.
--
"The next president and Congress will dutifully request, approve, and distribute the monies, but will do so to a slightly different pool of applicants."
The two political gangs serve different groups of business Crooks (they live in Gangistan, obviously). They also throw few bones into Dopeland.
What a country!
Jas
minus 202
gotta retest the lows tomorrow so the traders can get that 5C bounce in the afternood
Kona writes:
Paulson, Bernanke, Bush, Wicks, Franks, Pelosi, Reid, etc, all have to be accountable for the loss of TARP funds; they should all go to prison for fraud and then be hung for Treason!
Kona | 11.17.08 - 3:52 pm | #
Amen. I can't stand this us vs. them party crap. It's not always about winning. It's about leading and doing what's right for the country. They have all failed.
Wow, Paulson is leaving money on the table, and $350B at that. There has to have been some major back room knee capping going on for this to have happened.
My guess -270 on the day
minus 226 wow
The current coup has only a handful of weeks to destroy America, i.e, Job Number One, so how better to do that, add more instability to chaos and toss it in Obama's lap, while Paulson and bernanke walk away wearing flowery dresses hand-in-hand, patting Bush on the butt and saying, heck of a job!
This too shall pass, but perhaps not in this generation!
Those that hate Bush presume evil intent - though ironically split between calling him a chimp and an evil mastermind.
Those that don't hate Bush presume that this is the result of fiscal restraint.
Sadly enough, the only thing that everyone can agree on is that no one likes G.W. Bush.
Personally I don't think Bush is evil, just not smart enough to see his own limitations or not be influenced by those who perhaps are.
I've always argued I'd let GWB babysit my kids or carry a basket of kittens to my next door neighbor long before I would let Clinton do so. But I've also argued that somebody like Clinton is somewhat less likely to destroy things by virtue of having some degree of competence. I think if Bush simply had been more aware of his limits and less inclined to believe he was predestined to carry out some mission, I don't think he would have done so much damage.
With regard to fiscal constraint I hope it is abundantly clear that the Republican party in no way represents fiscal constraint or fiscal conservatism.
It would be absurd to blame today's problems on fiscal conservatism because we have had no such thing in this country for decades now.
4 minutes to minus 200
good call.
op ex week, eh?
ac - Agreed.
OFF the Lows!
I'd let GWB babysit my kids too. But I won't let Laura drive them anywhere.
The actual index or the futures?
ac | 11.17.08 - 3:58 pm |
i'm not sure a 'future' exists on the crvix... it's hard to trade deep in the hermetically sealed bunker.
Chapter 11 for GM isn't really feasible unless banks underwrite DIP loans which doesn't seem likely.
So, the TARP can write the DIP loan. What's the diff?
--
Comment on Bull Marketing Entertainment Ticket, aka CNBC:
"Fear wins today."
Dopeland has every reason to fear with ruling gangs running wild and in disarray.
The soap opera coninues...
Jas
Probably Bush and his gang are simply too busy packing to flee to Paraguay.
Starbucks was cut to Baa2 from Baa1 by Moody's.
Remember the statement by congressman Dennis Kucinich interviewing Neel Kashkari? Congress was told in early October that 350 billions were required to bail out US investors, and 350 billions to "assure" foreign (Chinese?) investors?
Wow, Paulson is leaving money on the table, and $350B at that. There has to have been some major back room knee capping going on for this to have happened.
Show Me The Pony | 11.17.08 - 4:04 pm
You mean something like this?
Chuck Grassley, the most senior Republican on the Senate finance committee, has asked Eric Thorson, inspector-general of the U.S. Treasury, to investigate potential conflicts of interest among former Goldman Sachs executives serving at the Treasury, the Financial Times reported.
I don't understand how so many smart people here can honestly think that we have a two-party system. We have one-party and whoever takes office is the puppet of the Federal Reserve.
Why is politics discussed here? This isn't hard to figure out. The banks (aka the Fed) makes alot of money off both inflation and deflation. We've had lot's of inflation (not the kind YOU are thinking of, but we have had lot's of inflation) for the past 40 years and now we're going to have massive deflation. It's orchestrated for the purpose of transferring wealth.
Quit assuming that the vast majority of politicians are against this and do NOT assume that any President is. For those that think 'the Messiah' is so different, please notice that he said in the 60 Minutes interview this weekend "deficits don't matter". Hmmmm... where have I heard that before.
They're all the same. Quit holding onto the hope of some government hero to save you and just play the game.
Pavel Chichikov writes:
"When in doubt, go Weimar."
remarkable that 80 years later, americans have not learned a thing !
( According to CreditSights, a research firm in New York and London, the U.S. government has put itself on the hook for some $5 trillion, so far, in an attempt to arrest a collapse of the financial system.
Washington is on the hook for $5 trillion - Economy at a Crossroads- msnbc.com
At least the DOW finished off the lows of the day.
)
I wish we could have a show of hands. 460 people online - how many realize the Fed isn't part of the government, at all...
Bloomberg apparently doesn't since they are suing under the Freedom of Information Act which only applies to government agencies. The privately held Fed laughed their asses off no doubt when they got that lawsuit.
Not Federal.
No Reserves.
Simple.
lastly, the "no reserves" point should explain why they HAD to do the TARP. They lost our money and they needed more of it.
Bush abandoned the rest of TARP because Democrats won't give him any more, and Republicans in Congress won't vote for any further money regardless of who requests it.
The only hope is that Democrats are too fearful of passing TARP-The Sequel on their votes alone in January.
Not that I don't love beating a dead horse, but the range today on 13-WEEK TREASURY Bill was 0.02 - 0.17, with 52 week range between 0.01 - 8.212
Today was a 30.77% drop
http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=%5EIRX#chart1:symbol=^irx;range=my;indicator=volume;charttype=line;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=on;source=undefined
What does this mean??
FYI: The U.S. Treasury Department auctioned $27 billion in 13-week bills on Monday.
The auction drew a yield of 0.150%, with 82.3% of bills allotted at this rate. The bid-to-cover ratio for the auction, a statistic that measures demand for the securities, came in at 3.14.
The maturity date for the bills is February 19th, 2009.
Last week, the Treasury's auction of 13-week bills drew a bid-to-cover ratio of 3.32.
RTTNews - Breaking News, financial breaking News, Positive EPS Surprises, Stock research ....
FYI: T-bills are issued through a competitive bidding process at a discount from par, which means that rather than paying fixed interest payments like conventional bonds, the appreciation of the bond provides the return to the holder.
\tFor example, let's say you buy a 13-week T-bill priced at $9,800. Essentially, the U.S. government (and its nearly bulletproof credit rating) writes you an IOU for $10,000 that it agrees to pay back in three months. You will not receive regular payments as you would with a coupon bond, for example. Instead, the appreciation - and, therefore, the value to you - comes from the difference between the discounted value you originally paid and the amount you receive back ($10,000). In this case, the T-bill pays a 2.04% interest rate ($200/$9,800 = 2.04%) over a three-month period.
I wish the CR companion types would get the terminology right, we're dopes not idiots
Too much credit made us poor. More credit will make us even poorer.
Foolish Keynesian spending will further dilute the pool of real savings. We are so screwed.
What a sham.
"opex week eh?"
Only monday...wait.....guaranteed we get some whoosh up before Friday.
Ciao
MS
Look at previous bid-to-cover ratio's, closer to 2.77% as a high and now this ratio of 3.32, which is based on almost a year's worth of $22 billion plus averages; pretty soon, this is gonna be real money!
U.S. Economic Calendar
Andrew,
Exactly. Thanks for the link.
Bloomberg apparently doesn't since they are suing under the Freedom of Information Act which only applies to government agencies. The privately held Fed laughed their asses off no doubt when they got that lawsuit.
Gamma:
The Federal Reserve System is a dual public and private institution. The FR banks themselves are private and owned by the member banks. On the other hand, the Board of Governors is an independent Federal Agency, to which the FOIA does apply. Of course, there are numerous exemptions from FOIA requests.
ooops, this is today's:
U.S. Economic Calendar
This notion that our infrastructure is "crumbling" is a sham too. Nothing but a politically correct excuse to spend money we don't have or need to spend.
One last item, then my work on this planet is finished:
3-Month Bill Auction
U.S. Economic Calendar
Highlights
Demand for T-bills remains extreme, demand that reveals extreme uncertainty over the global outlook. Stop-out rates for both the 3-month and 6-month bills, at 0.15 percent and 0.84 percent, are among the lowest since the mid-September crash. Despite very large auction sizes of $27 billion, bid-to-cover ratios were very strong at 3.14 for the 3-month auction and 3.38 for the 6-month.
Basel Too writes:
"The Federal Reserve System is a dual public and private institution. The FR banks themselves are private and owned by the member banks. On the other hand, the Board of Governors is an independent Federal Agency, to which the FOIA does apply. Of course, there are numerous exemptions from FOIA requests."
About 10 years ago we sued the Fed for breach of government procurement regs (re a network security installation) and they immediately settled rather than litigate this exact issue. There may be precedent since then, but it is a very touchy issue among government procurement attorneys.
Kona can you recommend a bond primer, current, preferably discussing political implications? For the educated novice. Thanks.
Kona,
The T-bill demand is not as add as it seems. Many money market funds are holding toxic crap and would have broken the buck absent the fed's alphabet soup facilities.
One prime money market fund (from a major broker dealer) I looked at had 3% of its assets classified as level 3 (entities with names like "Whistle Jacket").
A lot of crap is masquerading as money these days. The fed knows this and is trying to engineer a soft a crash landing as possible.
Frankly, I believe that they simply stopped it since:
A. The hubris of some financials to take money and then offer bonuses showed that the windows are indeed sufficient;
B. That the banks gamed them horribly;
C. That a lot of Americans are sitting there watching everybody and their uncle show up for their "fair share";
D. That some of OB's folks asked that something be left over for some realistic spending since with the coming deficits, they can't just piss the money away.
Angry Saver writes:
This notion that our infrastructure is "crumbling" is a sham too. Nothing but a politically correct excuse to spend money we don't have or need to spend.
Angry Saver | 11.17.08 - 4:32 pm | #
i cant completely agree with you Saver. i know for a fact that the water distribution piping of much of the country is in a sorry state. much of it put in the ground by low-bid contractors using poor or untested materials. lots of that pipe will need to be dug up in the near future- most by individual cities and municipalities who depend on ratepayers or property taxes. I cant speak to highways and such, but that is my experience with water utilities
Kona: didn't the last long term (10 or 30yr?) T-bill offer just fail? Seems like this money is now going to the short-term T-bills...
Investors trying to "stay in cash" - and maintain their short-term liquidity..."
Soft crash...WTF? Jumping off a 15 foot bridge will be soft....jumping of the Hoover Dam will KILL you! The economy is a walking corpse and will be exposed...soon. Just as soon a Q2-09' profits come out. The P&E's of the Fortune 500 will resemble your grand mammas piggy bank...broken and raided by all the grankids....empty. There will be signs and wonders in the days that follow. All the current market data and historical data will be thrown out because it will truly be a new world because this is global baby!
"This notion that our infrastructure is "crumbling" is a sham too."
Tell that to families of the victims of I-35W. That was August 1, 2007, or only 1 year ago.
i know for a fact that the water distribution piping of much of the country is in a sorry state. much of it put in the ground by low-bid contractors using poor or untested materials. lots of that pipe will need to be dug up in the near future
I've personally laid many many miles of water systems. 3/4" up to 36" dia. It's hard for me to believe systems in general will fail. They are not that complicated. Idiot proof really. Further, everything I have ever done or seen is thoroughly tested and inspected.
Tell that to families of the victims of I-35W. That was August 1, 2007, or only 1 year ago.
One tragedy does not prove that our infrastructure is crumbling. In fact, the utter scarcity of tragedies or even minor incidents argues my point.
Goldman Sachs says they will forego bonuses this year, and the next thing you know, Hank says he doesn't need the other $350 billion. Gives you an idea what kind of bonuses they were expecting.
One tragedy does not prove that our infrastructure is crumbling. In fact, the utter scarcity of tragedies or even minor incidents argues my point.
Angry Saver | 11.17.08 - 4:59 pm | #
Exactly! I say we set our goals on becoming like Mexico. Or Argentina. I think we're half way there.
Blackhat - do you have any windex to clean the diet coke off my monitor? Well done - snarkiest wittiest post of the day
/Treasury drags duffle bag out of car trunk, opens bag, let's taxpayer out, who squints to adjust to the light
/clubs taxpayer over the head again.
/instructs goons: "check him again for money"
Wisdom Seeker @ 3:35 - Checked out your new site. Good work! Hope you pick up traffic soon. (added to my fav's list)
it's been obvious for a few weeks that Congress would not readily approve disbursement of the next $350B and that it would no rake the Bush Admn over the coals for its ineptness.
The first $350B did not produce any full solution. To some extent it temporarily eased the crisis. But some parts of the money were virtually stolen (i.e., given away) and the whole episode (plus the election) confirms to total bankruptcy of the Bush Admn.
So here is how things stand:
1) The economic crisis is real and geting worse. GM, etc, is on the ropes and ready to drop. The Bush Admn can do nothing because it lacks the ingenuity to craft a plan and it lacks the political capital to get it passed, and if it had a plan and got it passed then it lacks the competence to execute it.
2) The political ground is laid for major action by Obama in January. The Bush Admn is making things worse. Congress may or may not be able to craft a band aid in the lame duck session. Almost no matter what happens between now and Jan 20, however, Obama will come into office with A) massive political capital, B) a devatstating economic crisis to address, and C) a competent team of players even none of us on the left or the right are fully happy with his choice of personnel from a policy perspective (e.g., I am critical of Rubin and Summers on policy grounds, but they are titans of competence compared to Paulson, and comparing Obama to Bush on grounds of competence is a total laugher).
In terms of politics and economics and policy and execution, this needs to be seen as a process. Each step sets up the next.
typos
Congress would now rake the Bush Admn over the coals, very hot coals, very slowly raked . . .
Obama's team will be competent, even if those of us on the left and on the right are not happy with the personnel from a policy perspective...
sorry to always rush
Gamma,
"For those that think 'the Messiah' is so different, please notice that he said in the 60 Minutes interview this weekend "deficits don't matter". Hmmmm... where have I heard that before."
Your derogatory terminology tells us all that one would need to know about the amount of information in your post. For the record, he didn't say that "deficits don't matter". That's what Bloomberg used as their story intro title. What he said was this:
"And that we shouldnt worry about the deficit next year or even the year after. That short term, the most important thing is that we avoid a deepening recession."
And he's right, in the short term we need stimulative spending.
Plus, I notice that you leave out these other statements that he made regarding our fiscal situation:
"Ten years from now, we may have dug ourselves such a deep hole when it comes to our fiscal health that some of those problems are irreversible."
"I would start by engaging in some honest budgeting, because one of the things that this President has done over the last six years is engage in a lot of smoke and mirrors budgeting, and it's done incredible damage to our long-term fiscal health."
Angry Saver,
"One tragedy does not prove that our infrastructure is crumbling. In fact, the utter scarcity of tragedies or even minor incidents argues my point."
Here's what the American Society of Civil Engineers says:
http://www.asce.org/reportcard/2005/page.cfm?id=203
who needs tarp money when you can(are) print your own?
Here's what the American Society of Civil Engineers says:
I've been reading ASCE's reports for decades. They are hardly an unbiased and objective source.
FWIW, I have a BS in Civil Engineering and am a former ASCE member. I am also an owner of an infrastructure company. I would benefit greatly from infrastructure spending. However, indebting future generations to pave over our country in order to bailout financial foolishness is not something I want to see. Especially after seeing how high oil soared during the last bout of global "prosperity".
We do have infrastructure needs. But again, the notion that our infrastructure is crumbling is bogus - an expedient excuse to justify an expansion of government spending. It will do more damage than good.
We do have infrastructure needs. But again, the notion that our infrastructure is crumbling is bogus - an expedient excuse to justify an expansion of government spending. It will do more damage than good.
Angry Saver | 11.17.08 - 6:52 pm | #
I can tell you that the beach towns in NC definitely need spending for infrastructure. Years of idiots in charge who did not spend on maintenance have left us with raw sewage being pumped into our waterways. It is horrible.
Basel-
All you have to do it read Paul Warburg's account of the Fed. He is after all the chief architect of the Fed here in the States and his family was heavily involved with central banking in Europe. The regional banks of the Fed were created to give the impression of decentralized power and the government appointed positions and the name "Federal" were created to give the impression of being public.
OhNotNotAgain -
Are you familiar with Colonel House? Keep thinking that you're being offered a "choice" and enjoy living in fantasy land. Poltiical representatives - which parties are ALLOWED to particpate in a meaningful way and who will be a major contender in the primaries - is a controlled process. And where exactly was I "derrogatory"? You've got pretty thin skin if you think it's demeaning to sarcastically refer to someone as 'the messiah'. Also, don't assume that because I don't buy into the Obama-savior bullshit, that I am against him. That said, Keynesian-economics got us in this mess and he is applying a Keynesian solution to the problem. That's not new and it's not change and it won't work. McSame would have the same Keynesian toolset too. I'm unimpressed with both.
Years of idiots in charge who did not spend on maintenance have left us with raw sewage being pumped into our waterways. It is horrible.
That is horrible. But typically, sewage infrastructure is under the purview of local governments or authorities, not the federal government.
Like I said, there are indeed genuine infrastructure needs, but money creation for the sake of money creation will make us poorer, not richer.
"I've been reading ASCE's reports for decades. They are hardly an unbiased and objective source."
Okay, so go ahead and compile data that shows otherwise. Right now you're simply stating something without backing it up with any sort of evidence at all. Show us how the data and reports that they use for the report card are biased and not objective.
"Are you familiar with Colonel House? Keep thinking that you're being offered a "choice" and enjoy living in fantasy land. Poltiical representatives - which parties are ALLOWED to particpate in a meaningful way and who will be a major contender in the primaries - is a controlled process."
Please, sell that bill of goods elsewhere. It's lazy short-hand for not having to give a shit about our government. "It's all corrupt, so therefore I don't have to actually participate." See, I get to do nothing and still complain !
"And where exactly was "derrogatory"? You've got pretty thin skin if you think it's demeaning to sarcastically refer to someone as 'the messiah'."
It's demeaning to those that voted for him and worked to get him elected, and that's exactly why you said it. It's the same reason why a some posters here, like yourself, regard everyone that invests something of themselves in the political process as fools. Oh, to be as cool as you someday. One can only hope.....
"Also, don't assume that because I don't buy into the Obama-savior bullshit, that I am against him."
I didn't say anything of the sort. And thanks for proving my point. How many people have you honestly heard refer to him in such a manner ? The only people that do are those like yourself that are looking to score cheap points by coming up with some lame-ass name. People did it with Bush, and as much as I hated that guy, he was still our President and I called him by his actual name. Anything else is just grade-school insults.
"That said, Keynesian-economics got us in this mess and he is applying a Keynesian solution to the problem."
How exactly did Keynesian economics get us into this mess ? I sense the words "fiat currency" coming soon.
"That's not new and it's not change and it won't work. McSame would have the same Keynesian toolset too. I'm unimpressed with both."
Okay, so why won't infrastructure spending work, what is your solution ? Just saying it won't work doesn't count. It worked pretty damn well under Roosevelt, and we're dealing with a similar type of deflation scenario.
Be Afraid, Very Afraid
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/well-great-depression-2-2011/story.aspx?guid={B28B49B5-EFD1-4941-B57E-A2BA1545BA09}&siteid=yahoomy
OhNoNotAgain-
WWII got us out of deflation.
I invested plenty in the political process and along with a minority in this country I had the COURAGE to vote for someone I actually wanted in office (Ron Paul). Undoubtedly plenty of Obama supporters liked him, but MANY voted for him simply because they hate the other side.
Regarding Obama's "savior" status - are you blind? Have you heard the expectations? People around the world think things will be substantially differnt. My aunt and uncle just went to Israel, Jordan, etc. for vacation. Muslims in the West Bank think he represents change for them. Haahhahahahah - with a Jewish cabinet. I think not. The only reason I use this example is to show how blinded people are. More of the same. We have one party. Grab your courage and vote in a true 2nd party after you finish your 4 years of disappointment.
If you believe Bush is not going to grab $350B before heading for Paraguay, you have been asleep for the past eight years.
The money and pardons are the two items on the must do list.