If US authorities keep nationalizing mortgages and businesses the next dollar could become seen as backed by the value of people. The mortgages, loans and stocks our government is buying in bulk are people's houses and jobs. The value quantified in their work, credit and houses is being scooped up at fire sale prices. Most reasonable people realize that any bailout just delays the inevitable. Why then, do governmental entities want to subsume and consume such huge parts of the economy?
Market observers have noticed stocks rally all Summer on worsening financial news. Some suspected that the Fed and/or the Treasury were in the market buying equities to massage perceptions similarly to how they intervene in currency markets (gold and silver also are currency markets). It is now widely known and advertised that the Federal Reserve is trading U.S. Treasuries for stocks and other soured bubble investments at face value. While meddling in currency markets is nothing new, they have been buying tens of billions of dollars a day of mortgage toxic waste all Summer, hiding bank losses in the process. These purchases are all being made with newly printed money. $1.8 trillion so far. Printed money used this way can delay the pain of falling stock prices but it cannot prevent it. This is because nothing has changed to make business better, the fundamentals are still worsening.
The shock doctrine is now being applied to Congress by Boogieman Bush and Comrade Hank to scare them into giving at least $700 billion dollars and absolute power to the same bankers who caused the current problems by over leveraging themselves into insolvency. This money will be used to buy more mortgages, stocks, and their secret derivatives. It will legitimize any horde of stocks that may have been bought surreptitiously by government entities during the irrational price jumps of the Summer. Since this money does not exist in any government account, it too will have to be fabricated. These efforts will inflate the prices of imports and necessities.
The huge scale of purchases by our government and the private corporation that prints our dollars (the Fed) will eventually lead people to see our money as collateralized by stocks and mortgages. This opens up some very interesting issues. The largest of which is the shift from a fiat (unbacked) currency to one that is arguably backed by the value of people's work since, again, stock prices and mortgage values are ultimately tied to the value of the human effort that sustains them. The value of this collateral would be increased by preventing or limiting the discharge of debt through bankruptcy.
Why in the world would U.S. Authorities want to own so many stocks and mortgages? Clearly they intend to buy as many as they can get. They wouldn't be buying them if they didn't want them. The U.S. Government recently nationalized half of all outstanding mortgages after purchasing Freddie and Fannie. The Fed seems intent on accumulating the other half. If they own the majority of people's mortgages (their houses) and a large portion of employer's equity (their jobs) one could say the dollar will be backed by the earning potential of the U.S. Citizen, the value of it's people. What would you call a government that owns half the mortgages and half the stocks?
Though the dollar is academically a fiat, or faith based, currency it has in actuality been on a de-facto oil standard. The quantity of dollars in the system has been highly correlated to gross oil sales since until recently oil only traded in dollars all across the Earth. Thus the more oil we and the world consumed the more dollars the Fed would print to facilitate the transactions. Iran and Venezuela have begun trading their oil for Euros. This growing trend reduces the demand for dollars which are used to settle oil transactions. It also resulted in oil newly having a .9 correlation to Euros up until the bizarro market movements that began in the Summer. The oil standard has kept the dollar way higher than US fundamentals would imply. The evolution of the dollar appears to be going like this: $ off gold standard, onto oil standard > $ off oil standard onto asset standard.
Could taking the dollar which was unbacked except for being in high demand for oil transactions and backing it with financial assets be an improvement for the dollar? That remains to be seen. If a crash occurs and government entities buy a large share of US assets for a fraction of their intrinsic value with free printed cash the scheme could show large paper profits resultant of inflation already in the pipeline plus inflation caused by the printing itself. Further, the settling of $60 plus trillion or more in derivatives is likely to result in a financial neutron bomb that would flatten asset values down to pennies on the dollar. This captured value could be the underpinning of the new dollar. So, on paper the scheme could work though old fashioned civil libertarians will surely swallow their barf and shudder.
If this is indeed the scheme, and what else are they planning to do with all these formerly private assets, then, in order to hold things together, they will most likely need to impose some kind of foreign exchange controls for the extended period of time encompassing the transition. This would mean individuals would be blocked from diversifying out of US dollars, or that they would only be able to do so with expensive limitations or onerous reporting requirements. These controls will make it prohibitively expensive for most US citizens to establish life in another country.
This is the same administration that wants to move your social security money into the stock market. Anyone who hasn't sold out yet may wish to consider it while the government is still an eager buyer. At some point they will realize that lower purchase prices are in their interest and pull their buying for a while. Who knows how low stocks could go when they stop propping. Large numbers of market participants are not participating in these markets because they look rigged. Speculators in particular are being chastised and chased out of the market. It is looking more and more like the only buyers who will be left in the market will be the government and the victims of the mass media.
This stock propping with shill buying has two effects; it covers up the real problems by preventing accurate investor opinions and forecasts from being expressed in asset prices and it floods the system with money at a time when money is vanishing rapidly as loans dry up and the money multiplying effects of debt are cut off. Without debt expansion there is no economic expansion. This is how a fractional reserve fiat system works. The debt implosion has left a big black hole that is being stuffed with cash through the purchase of financial assets, at first surreptitiously but now out in the open. This is not dropping money from helicopters. It is a way better deal for the money printers. They get control of real assets while re-inflating the system; all your stocks are belong to U.S.
With the government acting as buyer of last resort, every trade is now a trade on the next move of the government. The markets no longer freely exchange. Just look at the charts and see the same move at the same time every day, regardless of fundamentals. Only in major quakes does the market briefly point in the rational direction. Markets that make the same move at the same time of day counter to news and fundamentals are not random. In free markets, one expects to not see such daily repeating patterns. Look at S&P 500 futures charts over the past few months and see the spikes around 90 minutes before the NY open while the news was getting increasingly horrendous. Look at this Summer's gold charts that are nearly identical in shape, going the wrong way for entire days while the financial system melted down and Russia invaded our Iraq ally, Georgia.
If you get in this market you need to keep in mind that you are betting against a printing press. As such the best bets are those that are anti-dollar, at least until they are outlawed (as with short sales). Never thought I'd see the day but there is now big political risk to investors here in the Homeland. The safest bets will be in tangible assets not tied exclusively to US financial markets, which clearly are no longer free.
So, is the government going to come and get you? Probably not because you will volunteer to be part of the new system by taking on debt. Debt slavery is a form of voluntary servitude. Currencies backed by labor or indentured debt servitude are slave money. If this really comes to pass along these lines your personal worth will be your balance sheet and your caste will be your credit score. The data traces of your identity will yield economic access or deny entry. You will need to work harder and pay your mortgage on time so that the dollar doesn't fall. Bankruptcy would be treason, foreclosure a currency crime. The new currency may not even have a physical form but only be a record of the units of your contribution to society. These data traces could be attached to you, perhaps electronically or biometrically. We have the technology.
The dollar was going down anyway. This is the Federales scooping up all the houses and banks on the way out to be used as the underpinning value for a new currency. The dollar's remaining value is only in the inertia of the old system which was the largest in history. It will not stop at once. However, the slowdown will accelerate because what is occurring here is exponentially entropic. Derivatives that bet the world many times over ensure catastrophic failures.
Unlike all the other recent Orwellian events we thought were science fiction, this will probably never happen because it is crazy. It may appear that it has happened but it never really will ha
Vote? Why vote, why debate, this pool of cash just has to be tossed up in the air! They should just give it away during the "vote" and toss around gold bars at the lobby members that are sitting on their laps....
What happens when all the car dealerships go belly up and the radio promotions people have no place to go? And the newspapers have no one to advertise? Will that $30 per foot auto dealership land be worth $.20 per foot?
The United States is now the largest reseller of mortgage loans (FNMA FHLMC bail out) the largest insurance company (AIG, FDIC bail out), an auto manufacturer (Ford/GM loans) and soon to be the biggest owner of mortgage backed securities in the united states.
I doubt that the early American patriots fought and died for a nation as we find ourselves today.
For most of the day I have been sick to my stomach because of the Bailout/Rescue bill that will pass tonight (and soon in the house). But now after thinking it over, I want them to pass it. That way, when it fails completely, and this country is really in pain, nobody will be able to say, "Well if we just passed the Paulson plan everything would have been OK."
I don't want anyone to have any excuses anymore. Bring on the pain!!!
Here is my simple explanation of why I am opposed to the Paulson Plan.
Suppose you have a silver brick valued at $5,000 ("good" asset). You also have a car originally valued at $20,000 that was in an accident and is now valued at (marked-to-market at) $5000 ("bad" asset). If you need money, you can sell either one, or borrow against either one. Nothing magical about selling "bad" asset. The damaged car is a "bad" asset only if you pretend its value is $20,000. What Paulson Plan does is to buy the damaged car at close to $20,000, under the guise of providing capital. This is a blatant gift of free money to the bank. A better and standard plan is to provide capital in exchange for bonds or preferred shares (like Warren Buffet did with Goldman Sachs and GE).
Please note that if "bad" assets are marked-to-market, the liquidity problem goes away and exposes the solvency problem (negative net worth). Banks want to hide this problem as well as get free taxpayer money. This is what the Paulson Plan does.
Many details are missing, but I believe it captures the essence of my reasoning.
"The DPA program also created a dishonest atmosphere for both sellers and appraisers, who sometimes adjusted the contract or appraised value to accommodate for the funds paid into nonprofit organizations, according to an outspoken blogger known as Tanta on the Calculated Risk Web site."
I don't want anyone to have any excuses anymore. Bring on the pain!!!
Really Really Angry Guy
They're writing up EXCUSES as we speak.
I'm sure if you took a second, you could think up a few of your own.
That's about all we're good for, Excuses. But so long as the stupid leaders of China keep believing us, everything is fine, so don't worry. They're pretty dumb over there, especially with their savings mantra. Their savings are our BMW's.
Jim DeMint (R-SC) speaking now, what a marroon. Everything is due to fannie and freddie and lending to poor (ie black and brown) people and not drilling offshore.
KS writes : What Paulson Plan does is to buy the damaged car at close to $20,000, under the guise of providing capital. This is a blatant gift of free money to the bank.
Not to mention that they are tranched together damaged cars that can't be pried apart!
"Continental Congress, meeting in Philadelphia in September 1774, was called by the colonial Committees of Correspondence. The delegates adopted a declaration of personal rights, denounced taxation without representation, petitioned the British crown for a redress of grievances, and called for a boycott of British goods. The Second Continental Congress, meeting in May 1775, appointed George Washington commander in chief of the army. It later approved the Declaration of Independence (1776) and prepared the Articles of Confederation (1781), which granted certain powers to the Congress."
Today, we have Bush, Paulson, Bernanke, Palosi, Feinstien and the most criminal elements of our country making decisions that are in direct violation of our freedoms.
If FASB and the SEC ultimately change the 'mark-to-market' rules to make things better, why doesn't the US Govt follw suit simply change the definition of 'profit'? Profit should now include such items as "losses", "major losses", "big a&& losses" and "monster losses".
i.e. make it rain : When you're in da club with a stack, and you throw the money up in the air at the strippers. The effect is that it seems to be raining money.
example in a sentence : "Paulson went to the strip club, got 10 stacks, and made it rain inside the club the whole night. "
current example : "Because there was no other option, the senators voted 100-0 to make it rain"
raham said that unless the House bill is revived by Monday, bank failures will mount and credit will begin drying up and by the following Monday, Oct. 13, even the most credit-worthy customers will be denied.
Grahams somber forecast did nothing to sway fellow South Carolina Republican Sen. Jim DeMint, who is adamantly opposed to the bailout, or U.S. Rep. Gresham Barrett of Westminster who has denounced the plan as a form of socialism and cast the delegations lone nay vote.
DeMint said Mondays vote was a rejection of a bailout by the American people who told Congress "to find another way to work through this problem without socializing our economy."
While DeMint has called for a program of suspending or eliminating the capital gains tax and amending some government policies to make them more free market-friendly, Graham said there is neither the time nor the votes for that approach now.
"To those who want fundamental tax codes changes by Thursday, it aint going to happen," Graham said.
buffett buys preferred GE. sharks has come out to swim. and if you gonna complain about the being a GE shareholder and getting robbed, just imagine what would happen if he doesn't buy.
Because the bills language has not yet been finalized, Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.) has yet to decide if he will support it, David Carle, a spokesman for the senator, said this afternoon.
Leahy contributed provisions that would restore judicial oversight to administrative financial policies.
Senators are scheduled to vote on both amendments during a busy evening session that begins at 7:30 p.m.
Sanders amendment calls for a 10-percent tax surcharge on individuals who make more than $500,000 annually and couples earning more than $1 million.
Sanders will not vote for the broader Senate bailout bill unless it contains the amendment he authored, said Will Wiquist, the senators spokesman today.
Sanders does not expect his amendment to pass, Wiquist added, but would nonetheless pitch it to his colleagues on the Senate floor this afternoon.
The broader Senate proposal, under the sponsorship of Senate Baking Committee Chairman Chris Dodd (D-Conn.), proposes to raise the cap on FDIC-insured bank accounts from $100,000 to $250,000, as well as increase business tax credits for renewable energy.\t
Although the Constitution states that revenue-related legislation must originate in the House of Representatives, the Senate will sidestep the provision by attaching its bail-out measures as amendments to a previously passed House bill (HR 1424) that extends the scope of federal mental health benefits.
Kona writes:
Sanders amendment calls for a 10-percent tax surcharge on individuals who make more than $500,000 annually and couples earning more than $1 million.
I can't imagine that anybody would have a problem with this.
i think it is very important to examine the implications of the government owning the majority of mortgages, one of the world's largest insurance companies, and untold trillions worth of crap presented at the fed's "back window".
could it be that widespread nationalization is the goal?
again, sorry for the long winded post. i did hide a few points in there for those of you with patience.
(just watched three fighter jets flying low outside my window here in portland.)
"What happens when all the car dealerships go belly up and the radio promotions people have no place to go? And the newspapers have no one to advertise? Will that $30 per foot auto dealership land be worth $.20 per foot?"
A guy with bright red skin who looks like Mick Jagger walks out onto the floor of the NYSE and sings,
"Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste..."
In 1770, Ethan Allen, his brothers Ira and Levi, and Seth Warner recruited an informal militia, the Green Mountain Boys, to protect the interests of the original New Hampshire settlers against the new migrants from New York. When a New York judge arrived in Westminster with New York settlers in March 1775, violence broke out as angry citizens took over the courthouse and called a sheriff's posse. This resulted in the deaths of Daniel Houghton and William French in the "Westminster Massacre."
Greed is the selfish desire for or pursuit of money, wealth, power, food, or other possessions, especially when this denies the same goods to others. It is generally considered a vice, and is one of the seven deadly sins in Catholicism.
Kona writes:
Greed is the selfish desire for or pursuit of money, wealth, power, food, or other possessions, especially when this denies the same goods to others. It is generally considered a vice, and is one of the seven deadly sins in Catholicism.
The sins of religions are being updated to suit the new reality.
I'm voting for this guy to, I was gonna burn my vote on Abe Lincoln as a write-in, but Sanders is my new write-in! Does anyone else in The Senate have balls?
Stop me if you've heard this, a chick walks into the Senate:
John Poirier
1 hour, 50 minutes ago
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation is seeking temporary unlimited borrowing authority from the Treasury Department, according to a copy of the final Senate bailout legislation on Wednesday
I know, it just cracks me up over and over and over....
homedad43 writes:
out of curiousity, what is the technical distinction between recession and depression?
Economic textbooks I've browsed typically define a depression as 8 consecutive quarters of negative GDP - with substantial contraction in all economic activity and commensurate rise in the unemployment rate. That's fine with me, and I expect we'll get it.
Damn, I can't see the feed on my client's network. Did they get to the part where Angelo Mozillo helps with the bailout by repaying his bonuses that were based on fraudulent mortgage originations?
They're talking about amtrak because that bill is up too. Also it's better to talk about amtrak than to take credit for being a republican senator during the Bush administration.
A foreclosee whose wife/girl friend is not on title, is planning to buy in his same neighborhood at roughly 1/3rd of the peak value. He's an appraiser. He drank deeply of the Kool Aide. I yelled at him repeatedly. Now, I think, he's finally getting the message.
On thinking of it Otis, by the time your scenario comes to be, so many people will have walked, that the bagholder will be the gov-mint. Remember these rich guys aren't really all that smart. Especially bankers. I have been complaining to the hub about how stupid they are since the early 80s and they are still stupid.
Is that thing about Bof A true? You go to pay for lunch and your card is cut off without notice?
"Last week it was overwhelmingly, 'Vote no'; the tone has changed," Sen. Charles Schumer (D-NY) told CNBC Wednesday morning. "You never can predict on something like this until you have the votes, but on the Senate side there seems like there is broad, bipartisan support. If I had to guess I would say that it would pass both bodies."
20 SEC. 503. EXEMPTION FROM EXCISE TAX FOR CERTAIN
21 WOODEN ARROWS DESIGNED FOR USE BY
22 CHILDREN.
23 (a) IN GENERAL.Paragraph (2) of section 4161(b)
24 is amended by redesignating subparagraph (B) as sub
1 paragraph (C) and by inserting after subparagraph (A)
2 the following new subparagraph:
3 (B) EXEMPTION FOR CERTAIN WOODEN
4 ARROW SHAFTS.Subparagraph (A) shall not
5 apply to any shaft consisting of all natural
6 wood with no laminations or artificial means of
7 enhancing the spine of such shaft (whether sold
8 separately or incorporated as part of a finished
9 or unfinished product) of a type used in the
10 manufacture of any arrow which after its as
11 sembly
12 (i) measures 5⁄16 of an inch or less in
13 diameter, and
14 (ii) is not suitable for use with a bow
15 described in paragraph (1)(A)..
16 (b) EFFECTIVE DATE.The amendments made by
17 this section shall apply to shafts first sold after the date
18 of enactment of this Act.
If you think you or someone you know may be having a heart attack:
Call 911 within a few minutes5 at the mostof the start of symptoms.
If your symptoms stop completely in less than 5 minutes, still call your doctor.
Only take an ambulance to the hospital. Going in a private car can delay treatment.
Take a nitroglycerin pill if your doctor has prescribed this type of medicine.
Comrade Kristina, remember that a government big enough to give you everything is big enough to take it all AWAY! For the good of the masses of course. If you have a problme with that we may have to reduce your ration of meat to 0.5 Kg per month.
Lawyerliz writes:
O, by the way, is now neck and neck in fraudulent Florida.
Liz (if I may call you Liz), I live in Orlando by the "crucial I-4 corridor" - and I don't see how O wins this area. There's so much pent up hatred for "elitist taxing liberals" + he's black.
Comrade Kristina, remember that a government big enough to give you everything is big enough to take it all AWAY! For the good of the masses of course. If you have a problme with that we may have to reduce your ration of meat to 0.5 Kg per month.
diogenes | 10.01.08 - 6:02 pm | #
I understand that part, I just wonder why my current government gives me nothing, yet still takes everything away? Big Bird is flabbergasted!
otishertz writes: (a long thoughful post with no misogynistic objectification)
Thanks for the post... given the low signal-to-noise ratio here in recent days, glad to have something meaty like this to chew on!
The biggest flaw in your argument is that it presupposes these people are thinking through the implications of what they are doing: I wish I could see any sign of that in their ad-hocracy. The competence of a conspiracy deviously leading us to our doom would be almost a relief. But everywhere we step, it's just more Black Swan sh*t.
that extends the scope of federal mental health benefits.
OMG, of all things to come up!
Glad I wasn't drinking anything, it would be all over my screen now. I sincerely hope the "scope" will be extended to the point that all us worker bees can freely attend therapy, since this whole thing has been such a mindf*ck. And complaining about it will be all we have left to occupy ourselves with.
Re: Florida. I live on the Panhandle, GWB country and I've seen maybe five or six McCain signs. There is absolutely no enthusiasm for him here at all, maybe Reps have said they simply won't vote. Florida is in play. I just registered two 70 something, white ladies this week as Dems. Also, Palin hurt McCain down here with the Jewish community.
Felix Salmon has an interesting line of thought on Warren Buffett and Wells Fargo:
"He owns 9% of Wells Fargo, which means that if Wells Fargo bought Wachovia, he'd essentially be taking on 9% of Wachovia's liabilities, including its $312 billion mortgage portfolio. It's easy to see that in the wake of the Goldman deal, he might not have been particularly excited about the Wachovia deal.
And it's almost unthinkable that Kovacevich wasn't talking to Buffett, his largest and most loyal shareholder.
But there's a conflict there: it's entirely conceivable that the deal would have been good for Wells Fargo even if it didn't fit into Berkshire Hathaway's broader risk strategy. If Kovacevich is taking marching orders from Buffett, that's kinda scandalous, especially now that Goldman Sachs, another core Buffett holding, is a bank and therefore a competitor.
But Buffett has rare and special powers. Just look at BRK-B: it rose on Monday, during the worst stock-market crash in years, and then fell on Tuesday when the rest of the market was up sharply. When things get really bad, it seems, people look to Berkshire Hathaway as a safe haven. Don't they know that it's extremely leveraged (like all insurance companies), doesn't pay any dividends, and is largely invested in the stock market?"
Shareholder lawsuits, anyone? How about a subpoena of any conversations between Buffett and WF's CEO?
It shows that during 2005 and 2006, White House officials received complaints about Iglesias from New Mexico Republicans, primarily Sen. Pete Domenici, Rep. Heather Wilson, and state party chair Allen Weh. Many of the complaints centered around Iglesias' apparent decision not to bring an indictment against a Democratic state official in a public corruption case before the midterms -- a subject of particular interest to Domenici -- as well as Iglesias' perceived unwillingness to aggressively prosecute voter fraud cases against organizers allied with Democra
Kona wrote:
Report Shows White House Engineered U.S. Attorney Firings
Uh Kona, you do remember when Bill Clinton took over he fired ALL the U.S. Attornies and replaced them with lackies mostly from the gloriums peoples republic of Arkansas...you do remember don't you?
...holy cow, Intrade agrees.
Not particularly relevant but Intrade charges a 5% commission on each contract bought or sold. That's 10% for a roundtrip trade... Now I understand how they make money!
It's hard to drum up public outrage when the TV media is so obviously slanted toward the bailout. I don't know how many times I heard about the "$1.2T loss" on Monday - nary a peep on the $7B gain on Tuesday.
to temporarily suspend proceedings while informal consultations and negotiations occur among Senators off the public record, either on or off the Senate floor. Senate rules provide ample opportunities for filibusters, so Senators attempt to obtain the widest possible agreement on the Senate schedule, procedural problems, and policy decisions, either to avoid a filibuster or bring one to an end. It is often easier for Senators to reach these agreements through informal discussions during quorum calls than through the Senate's formal rules of debate. When the conversations end, the Senate agrees to a unanimous consent request to terminate the quorum call and resume formal proceedings.
to actually call Senators to the floor to record their presence. This alternative type of quorum call -- a "live quorum" call -- stands in contrast to the those used to delay or suspend the Senate' floor proceedings; here Senators names are called more quickly. The Senate's rules require that live quorum calls occur immediately before a cloture vote or before the Senate acts on a unanimous consent agreeement to set a date and time for voting on whether to pass a bill or joint resolution. Also, the Senate Majority leader occasionally suggests the absence of a quorum and announces a live quorum call because he wishes to bring the Senators to the floor. Page not Found - THOMAS (Library of Congress)
Yeah, the Panhandle. I still see "W" stickers but hardly any McCain. I've seen almost as many O stickers and yard signs. I've had customers asking me how they can get an O bumper sticker. McCain is toast in Florida. He better pray they can steal Ohio for him.
oops-thanks lawyerliz ;)---also Ohio, comrade kristina, seems to be in play but I was shocked driving throught the state at how many confederate battle flags people displayed--racism might skew the vote--otherwise we have a landslide
Senate Reps already admitted days ago they will vote yes for the bill, even without the free toaster (FDIC changes). Shelby should introduce the Roubini Plan (Bloomberg Radio 9/28). Shelby is a wise man.
Wait just a second on Schumer and The FICO score relating to car sales. He says you need a high FICO to buy a car, as if that is bad, and that this bill he supports is need to free up credit -- thus he wants to change peoples FICO scores by lending wall street $700 B?
That is retarded! The FICO score is based on the credit of the individual and if they have done well with saving money, how will this bailout help them? Adversely, if this bill passes, FICO scores are going to be dropped so that people with poor credit scores can buy cars they can't afford?
This is the heart of the incorrect thinking about this! We can't solve this problem by lowering the bar and giving bailouts to people that mis-manage cash; that starts on wall street, with reckless lending..WTF?
They say that Obama needs to be up by at least 8% to account for the racist vote, and those who will NEVER vote for a black man. NEVER EVER EVER.
Thank U Naive People Of China
add to that the sickening "Magic Muslim" campaign.
Lliz,
I worry about people being blocked from discharging debts owned by the government in the manner that student loans follow one around for life. bankruptcy laws have been altered by bushco to make it more difficult to discharge debts.
there are not supposed to be debtors prisons in this "free" society. if a person's wal-mart wages are garnered to cover unsecured loans irresponsibly lent then that person is an occupationally imprisoned debt slave.
the current regime is continually changing the rules. i would not be surprised to see exchanges shut down in the near future. already i have been blocked from trading certain futures options by "technical problems at the exchange" concurrently with obvious forced price movements. also have seen bizarre extreme otherworldly bid ask spreads on options that block trades at certain times.
i layed down the armageddon put with no stops and backed up off it. i say 50% chance the gov finds a way to block its profitability. which is to say that i see half a chance i'll have to hire someone to seek remuneration in court should this trade go well. if the trade goes poorly i will be thankful the worst did not come to pass.
loss of confidence in markets and exchanges is a big problem. the guv buying up the private sector in bulk does nothing to increase my confidence.
and liz, i thought it was the motion of the ocean...
Speed writes:
I wonder how many people, upside down on their mortgages, lost their job, and pissed about a $700B bailout are maxing their ccds before they BK.
I'm wondering whether this is not such a bad idea after all. Draw out a cash advance up to my limit on all cards, put the money under my mattress or just spend it, and then declare bankruptcy.
Seems like the system is set up to reward people who do this, and that I'm really missing out by paying my debt off monthly, and maintaining my credit rating.
Senate most certainly will pass the bill and bailout walmart for XMAS -- bullshit. Peole need to be accountable for debt and wall street should not be allowed to lend recklessly!
Kona writes:
Senate most certainly will pass the bill and bailout walmart for XMAS -- bullshit. Peole need to be accountable for debt and wall street should not be allowed to lend recklessly!
You need to adjust, and act like an American, or just get out.
The ignorant commies in China are more than willing to subsidize us, so quit complaining, and SPEND SPEND SPEND.
Depression is better defined as a loss of hope VS a recession as defined as temporary loss of income. I do believe this is a depression because watching all this BS has made me realize...I am depressed. Not to mention the dispair that goes along with the knowledge of what got us here in the 1st place. This is a slow cooking stew that was seasoned by each administration since the "New Deal" and the main course is finally finished. Shall we have desserts?
This US Attorney probe is different than Clintons. Apparently the Bush White House pressured US Attorneys to file false charges against prominent Democrates who were up for re-election. Failure to file the charges resulted in the attorneys being discharged.
Lawyerliz said: "GUYS tell themselves it is the motion of the ocean. Girls who like them don't disabuse them of this belief.
But circumference certainly has its charms. . .
And nobody yells at me for, errrrr, injecting sex. . .
into the discussion...."
Jesus, what's on that live feed that you all are watching? Did CR deliberately mis-label it "live feed from C-SPAN2" so as not to draw any attention to it?
Nelson (D-FL) makes a good point. This bill will benifit the banks and not the homeowners who are in trouble. "If you play fast and loose the government will make up the losses"
I just finished dinner so I can't watch CSPAN as I paid good money for my food and don't want to lose it but has any of these Senators noted that we already have a bailout plan and it takes effect today.
The FHA has $300 billion available to refinance any deadbeat who can get his bank to accept 90% of the current appraised value of the property up to $550,000. Assuming a national average
decline in home prices of 20% and a further write down of 10% banks can around 70% on the dollar for their bad mortgage loans. Is this not enough? What is Paulson going to have to pay if banks wont take this?
Nelson calls upon for an investigation of the rating agencies. "This bill does not address the real problem: foreclosures. I oppose this bill, Congress can do better."
Ok, this just in from the tinfoil hat. This whole bailout bill is designed to be so ugly so awful, that if The Republicans look like they are for it, it sets up The Stage for Democrats to defeat it as a moral issue, but in this soap opera, the whole point is to set up McCain as the guy who will be President -- hence, if The Democrats do the right thing, they lose the election, if they do the wrong thing and support this, they set up future failure for Obama.
This is all politics and the money is actually not that big of deal (spread out over 10 years). The bigger deal is who gets access to the money in the form of lobby money, so that is why, this drama is a no-win deal that is in place just to divert attention from the shit that was already happening -- then again, I'm low on blood sugar...
I live in Destin, FL (panhandle) and
I also believe McCain's support level is below Bush's margin in the past two
elections. McCain will not help himself in Florida by voting for this bailout.
Further, I am frequently in Georgia and Sen. Chambliss, who is supporting the bailout, will be defeated by Jim Martin a democrat that does not support the bailout.
081001_620pedt
listening to all the tv and web coverage of the current crisis gets me so frustrated....
bad enough mr bush, mr paulson, and mr bernanke with all the scare tactics but all the wheels spouting for the last week make it clear nobody really knows how bad this risk is or is not. the real problem is nobody speaks the truth anymore... it is quite clear that the current problem is due to everybody running on borrowed $ that they can't pay back on time. they includes yes, some that took mortgages but also many that bought those mortgages...many with hefty leverage factors so they could bet with higher odds (but they were bad bets). then there is our crazy govt...printing (borrowing) $ to keep propping up the big house of cards.... those saying the RTC paid back forget the reason is that the govt kept pumping to keep the house of cards in place so it would appear there was payback...but look at the nat'l debt history...the taxpayers didn't make a dime on the RTC....just put the debt off for another day...maybe today.
EVENTUALLY, the house of cards will fall and the pain will be difficult. IF ppl want to prop the house of cards up a while longer, admit what you are proposing and think about who should pay the price....don't just put it on the national credit card. mr sanders idea for a 10% tax increase (or maybe it should be 20%) on any ann'l gross income >$500k isn't bad... maybe some of the countries that hold lots of our nat'l debt could write a check. warren buffet even says he won't work on borrowed $...he plays with CASH ($10B min on hand at all times!). call a spade a spade....those that want to borrow $ create an obligation for themselves to pay it back. my country and everybody else in this country need to start living within their means and taking responsibility for obligations they take one....you can't be expecting everybody else to pay for your mistakes....and the govnt's job is to make sure nobody lets the house of cards get so big it puts all of the citizens with no debt at risk......
this has gotten bigger than any of us can probably comprehend so
god help us all...please
Too bad, I'll be visiting family on the Gulf Coast for the week of election, we are from Baltimore, too. I've enjoyed your comments and thought we could have a coffee.
Another dip shit talking about peoples losing money in their 401k plans without mentioning they were sold to them by the same den of snakes that caused this mess. Too Much.
Well, not half are in foreclosure, but certainly a lot. Lots are my clients.
That bailout thing will not work, because it's not mandatory, and won't work in the areas I'm familar with because we are going to end up somewhere between 40% and 65% off peak. You can get a house half off if you look right now. A NICE house.
Money Man said: "...Depression is better defined as a loss of hope VS a recession as defined as temporary loss of income. I do believe this is a depression because watching all this BS has made me realize...I am depressed. Not to mention the dispair that goes along with the knowledge of what got us here in the 1st place...."
Well, fortunately for us all I think we're just about to see the low point for our despair, the Vice-Presidential Debate. Palin doesn't know the difference between Hamas and humous, while Biden thinks we had television in the 1930's.
I'm going to start drinking now and watch "Iron Man" instead. Hopefully, things will be better after tonight.
Why aren't we calling for the impeachment of Senator Dodd, head of the senate banking. This tomfoolery took place on his watch. Dodd is a total incompetent.
alking about getting phone calls to his office telling him what to do!
I sent email to my 2*S/calif and then called their offices later - complemented the Senators on their dedication and service, but wanted to voice my opposition to the bill.
How does Graham guarentee that this will solve the problem, he better put it in writing and when it passes and it fails he should be tared and feathered. "to the people of South Carolina, I've got your message too, but at the end of the day I've got to rely on the good sense that God gave me, and I know what is going to happen if I don't take a risk" (inferred and vote for this bill) WOW he is voting AGAINST what all the phone calls of his constituients are saying because he says he knows better "I know it's a bad choice but I need to act and I will."
Harry Reid spilled the beans on the major insurance company during his press conf but now his spokesman says he wasn't talking about any specific company.
It wouldn't surprise me though - a friend who represents lots of insurers says they're all hurting.
almost
me too!
i was #1 !!!!
ALL YOUR STOCKS ARE BELONG TO U.S.
If US authorities keep nationalizing mortgages and businesses the next dollar could become seen as backed by the value of people. The mortgages, loans and stocks our government is buying in bulk are people's houses and jobs. The value quantified in their work, credit and houses is being scooped up at fire sale prices. Most reasonable people realize that any bailout just delays the inevitable. Why then, do governmental entities want to subsume and consume such huge parts of the economy?
Market observers have noticed stocks rally all Summer on worsening financial news. Some suspected that the Fed and/or the Treasury were in the market buying equities to massage perceptions similarly to how they intervene in currency markets (gold and silver also are currency markets). It is now widely known and advertised that the Federal Reserve is trading U.S. Treasuries for stocks and other soured bubble investments at face value. While meddling in currency markets is nothing new, they have been buying tens of billions of dollars a day of mortgage toxic waste all Summer, hiding bank losses in the process. These purchases are all being made with newly printed money. $1.8 trillion so far. Printed money used this way can delay the pain of falling stock prices but it cannot prevent it. This is because nothing has changed to make business better, the fundamentals are still worsening.
The shock doctrine is now being applied to Congress by Boogieman Bush and Comrade Hank to scare them into giving at least $700 billion dollars and absolute power to the same bankers who caused the current problems by over leveraging themselves into insolvency. This money will be used to buy more mortgages, stocks, and their secret derivatives. It will legitimize any horde of stocks that may have been bought surreptitiously by government entities during the irrational price jumps of the Summer. Since this money does not exist in any government account, it too will have to be fabricated. These efforts will inflate the prices of imports and necessities.
The huge scale of purchases by our government and the private corporation that prints our dollars (the Fed) will eventually lead people to see our money as collateralized by stocks and mortgages. This opens up some very interesting issues. The largest of which is the shift from a fiat (unbacked) currency to one that is arguably backed by the value of people's work since, again, stock prices and mortgage values are ultimately tied to the value of the human effort that sustains them. The value of this collateral would be increased by preventing or limiting the discharge of debt through bankruptcy.
Why in the world would U.S. Authorities want to own so many stocks and mortgages? Clearly they intend to buy as many as they can get. They wouldn't be buying them if they didn't want them. The U.S. Government recently nationalized half of all outstanding mortgages after purchasing Freddie and Fannie. The Fed seems intent on accumulating the other half. If they own the majority of people's mortgages (their houses) and a large portion of employer's equity (their jobs) one could say the dollar will be backed by the earning potential of the U.S. Citizen, the value of it's people. What would you call a government that owns half the mortgages and half the stocks?
Though the dollar is academically a fiat, or faith based, currency it has in actuality been on a de-facto oil standard. The quantity of dollars in the system has been highly correlated to gross oil sales since until recently oil only traded in dollars all across the Earth. Thus the more oil we and the world consumed the more dollars the Fed would print to facilitate the transactions. Iran and Venezuela have begun trading their oil for Euros. This growing trend reduces the demand for dollars which are used to settle oil transactions. It also resulted in oil newly having a .9 correlation to Euros up until the bizarro market movements that began in the Summer. The oil standard has kept the dollar way higher than US fundamentals would imply. The evolution of the dollar appears to be going like this: $ off gold standard, onto oil standard > $ off oil standard onto asset standard.
Could taking the dollar which was unbacked except for being in high demand for oil transactions and backing it with financial assets be an improvement for the dollar? That remains to be seen. If a crash occurs and government entities buy a large share of US assets for a fraction of their intrinsic value with free printed cash the scheme could show large paper profits resultant of inflation already in the pipeline plus inflation caused by the printing itself. Further, the settling of $60 plus trillion or more in derivatives is likely to result in a financial neutron bomb that would flatten asset values down to pennies on the dollar. This captured value could be the underpinning of the new dollar. So, on paper the scheme could work though old fashioned civil libertarians will surely swallow their barf and shudder.
If this is indeed the scheme, and what else are they planning to do with all these formerly private assets, then, in order to hold things together, they will most likely need to impose some kind of foreign exchange controls for the extended period of time encompassing the transition. This would mean individuals would be blocked from diversifying out of US dollars, or that they would only be able to do so with expensive limitations or onerous reporting requirements. These controls will make it prohibitively expensive for most US citizens to establish life in another country.
This is the same administration that wants to move your social security money into the stock market. Anyone who hasn't sold out yet may wish to consider it while the government is still an eager buyer. At some point they will realize that lower purchase prices are in their interest and pull their buying for a while. Who knows how low stocks could go when they stop propping. Large numbers of market participants are not participating in these markets because they look rigged. Speculators in particular are being chastised and chased out of the market. It is looking more and more like the only buyers who will be left in the market will be the government and the victims of the mass media.
This stock propping with shill buying has two effects; it covers up the real problems by preventing accurate investor opinions and forecasts from being expressed in asset prices and it floods the system with money at a time when money is vanishing rapidly as loans dry up and the money multiplying effects of debt are cut off. Without debt expansion there is no economic expansion. This is how a fractional reserve fiat system works. The debt implosion has left a big black hole that is being stuffed with cash through the purchase of financial assets, at first surreptitiously but now out in the open. This is not dropping money from helicopters. It is a way better deal for the money printers. They get control of real assets while re-inflating the system; all your stocks are belong to U.S.
With the government acting as buyer of last resort, every trade is now a trade on the next move of the government. The markets no longer freely exchange. Just look at the charts and see the same move at the same time every day, regardless of fundamentals. Only in major quakes does the market briefly point in the rational direction. Markets that make the same move at the same time of day counter to news and fundamentals are not random. In free markets, one expects to not see such daily repeating patterns. Look at S&P 500 futures charts over the past few months and see the spikes around 90 minutes before the NY open while the news was getting increasingly horrendous. Look at this Summer's gold charts that are nearly identical in shape, going the wrong way for entire days while the financial system melted down and Russia invaded our Iraq ally, Georgia.
If you get in this market you need to keep in mind that you are betting against a printing press. As such the best bets are those that are anti-dollar, at least until they are outlawed (as with short sales). Never thought I'd see the day but there is now big political risk to investors here in the Homeland. The safest bets will be in tangible assets not tied exclusively to US financial markets, which clearly are no longer free.
So, is the government going to come and get you? Probably not because you will volunteer to be part of the new system by taking on debt. Debt slavery is a form of voluntary servitude. Currencies backed by labor or indentured debt servitude are slave money. If this really comes to pass along these lines your personal worth will be your balance sheet and your caste will be your credit score. The data traces of your identity will yield economic access or deny entry. You will need to work harder and pay your mortgage on time so that the dollar doesn't fall. Bankruptcy would be treason, foreclosure a currency crime. The new currency may not even have a physical form but only be a record of the units of your contribution to society. These data traces could be attached to you, perhaps electronically or biometrically. We have the technology.
The dollar was going down anyway. This is the Federales scooping up all the houses and banks on the way out to be used as the underpinning value for a new currency. The dollar's remaining value is only in the inertia of the old system which was the largest in history. It will not stop at once. However, the slowdown will accelerate because what is occurring here is exponentially entropic. Derivatives that bet the world many times over ensure catastrophic failures.
Unlike all the other recent Orwellian events we thought were science fiction, this will probably never happen because it is crazy. It may appear that it has happened but it never really will ha
yawn
too much to read.....
Vote? Why vote, why debate, this pool of cash just has to be tossed up in the air! They should just give it away during the "vote" and toss around gold bars at the lobby members that are sitting on their laps....
Barf
What happens when all the car dealerships go belly up and the radio promotions people have no place to go? And the newspapers have no one to advertise? Will that $30 per foot auto dealership land be worth $.20 per foot?
The most incompetent group of socialists ever assembled. Half the room would be flipping burgers if they didn't marry rich...right Feinstein.
ecessary but not sufficient--there'll be alot more trillions for wall street.
otishertz - summarize please...can I haz a condensed versio
Mr Speakah, Mr. Chaiman, I'd like to thank you for that fine tie your wearing, and thank you for the tie you gave me
crispy&cole, are you from Bakersfield?
Do we get a new thread this afternoon when the debt hits $11 Trillion?
I am so tired of hearing the line:
"Small business can't make payroll"
from these elected people.
They have never made payroll. Just been on the payroll. I hate them all!!!
I think CR started a new thread because he knew I was at lunch.
Yes
The United States is now the largest reseller of mortgage loans (FNMA FHLMC bail out) the largest insurance company (AIG, FDIC bail out), an auto manufacturer (Ford/GM loans) and soon to be the biggest owner of mortgage backed securities in the united states.
I doubt that the early American patriots fought and died for a nation as we find ourselves today.
South Carolina,
Yah baby!
For most of the day I have been sick to my stomach because of the Bailout/Rescue bill that will pass tonight (and soon in the house). But now after thinking it over, I want them to pass it. That way, when it fails completely, and this country is really in pain, nobody will be able to say, "Well if we just passed the Paulson plan everything would have been OK."
I don't want anyone to have any excuses anymore. Bring on the pain!!!
I doubt that the early American patriots fought and died for a nation as we find ourselves today.
JohnW
And I doubt John Wayne would have made movies about investment bankers and lobbyists.
I hope there are wise people like paulson & bernanke around in 20 years, when the next generation needs to be bailed out.
Thank U Naive People Of China writes:
Do we get a new thread this afternoon when the debt hits $11 Trillion?
I laughed, I cried
democracy versus socialism?
Here is my simple explanation of why I am opposed to the Paulson Plan.
Suppose you have a silver brick valued at $5,000 ("good" asset). You also have a car originally valued at $20,000 that was in an accident and is now valued at (marked-to-market at) $5000 ("bad" asset). If you need money, you can sell either one, or borrow against either one. Nothing magical about selling "bad" asset. The damaged car is a "bad" asset only if you pretend its value is $20,000. What Paulson Plan does is to buy the damaged car at close to $20,000, under the guise of providing capital. This is a blatant gift of free money to the bank. A better and standard plan is to provide capital in exchange for bonds or preferred shares (like Warren Buffet did with Goldman Sachs and GE).
Please note that if "bad" assets are marked-to-market, the liquidity problem goes away and exposes the solvency problem (negative net worth). Banks want to hide this problem as well as get free taxpayer money. This is what the Paulson Plan does.
Many details are missing, but I believe it captures the essence of my reasoning.
They should just pass the bill or kill it, the incessant posters here for and against it is getting to be a drag.
The sooner people realize not to base their happiness or well being on the actions of others which are often out of their control the better.
Anyone watching this on CNBC?
otishertz your link to homepage does not work...
too much to read.....
You mean tl;dr
Crispy & Cole I knew you were...I'm from Bakersfield too =]
"The DPA program also created a dishonest atmosphere for both sellers and appraisers, who sometimes adjusted the contract or appraised value to accommodate for the funds paid into nonprofit organizations, according to an outspoken blogger known as Tanta on the Calculated Risk Web site."
Down Payment Assistance Officially Dead, For Now : HousingWire || financial news for the mortgage market
I don't want anyone to have any excuses anymore. Bring on the pain!!!
Really Really Angry Guy
They're writing up EXCUSES as we speak.
I'm sure if you took a second, you could think up a few of your own.
That's about all we're good for, Excuses. But so long as the stupid leaders of China keep believing us, everything is fine, so don't worry. They're pretty dumb over there, especially with their savings mantra. Their savings are our BMW's.
Fannie brainchild which has become frankenstei
Kona writes:
Anyone watching this on CNBC?
No, sorry, my computer doesn't get Pravda broadcasts.
Jim DeMint (R-SC) speaking now, what a marroon. Everything is due to fannie and freddie and lending to poor (ie black and brown) people and not drilling offshore.
KS writes : What Paulson Plan does is to buy the damaged car at close to $20,000, under the guise of providing capital. This is a blatant gift of free money to the bank.
Not to mention that they are tranched together damaged cars that can't be pried apart!
sorry everyone for all the words.
to summarize:
welcome to the debtor's prison, where every house is an island and all the streets are the same.
Jim Demint---the party line lie.
"Continental Congress, meeting in Philadelphia in September 1774, was called by the colonial Committees of Correspondence. The delegates adopted a declaration of personal rights, denounced taxation without representation, petitioned the British crown for a redress of grievances, and called for a boycott of British goods. The Second Continental Congress, meeting in May 1775, appointed George Washington commander in chief of the army. It later approved the Declaration of Independence (1776) and prepared the Articles of Confederation (1781), which granted certain powers to the Congress."
Today, we have Bush, Paulson, Bernanke, Palosi, Feinstien and the most criminal elements of our country making decisions that are in direct violation of our freedoms.
Jim DeMint is on fire right now, asking Congress to look in the mirror when it comes time to assign blame
mykillk writes: nice to meet you!!
If FASB and the SEC ultimately change the 'mark-to-market' rules to make things better, why doesn't the US Govt follw suit simply change the definition of 'profit'? Profit should now include such items as "losses", "major losses", "big a&& losses" and "monster losses".
There... all better.
SarBox - it would work if it was enforced! How many CEOs past and present would and should be in jail over this mess if it was enforced....
All the best
Click my homepage (I have been reporting on this mess for a few years now)
Kona,
I believe a better term would be
"make it rain"
i.e. make it rain : When you're in da club with a stack, and you throw the money up in the air at the strippers. The effect is that it seems to be raining money.
example in a sentence : "Paulson went to the strip club, got 10 stacks, and made it rain inside the club the whole night. "
current example : "Because there was no other option, the senators voted 100-0 to make it rain"
"Continental Congress, meeting in Philadelphia in September 1774
That was so 18th century.
Was that before or after dinosaurs & cavemen roamed the earth together?(gov. palin said this).
raham said that unless the House bill is revived by Monday, bank failures will mount and credit will begin drying up and by the following Monday, Oct. 13, even the most credit-worthy customers will be denied.
Grahams somber forecast did nothing to sway fellow South Carolina Republican Sen. Jim DeMint, who is adamantly opposed to the bailout, or U.S. Rep. Gresham Barrett of Westminster who has denounced the plan as a form of socialism and cast the delegations lone nay vote.
DeMint said Mondays vote was a rejection of a bailout by the American people who told Congress "to find another way to work through this problem without socializing our economy."
While DeMint has called for a program of suspending or eliminating the capital gains tax and amending some government policies to make them more free market-friendly, Graham said there is neither the time nor the votes for that approach now.
"To those who want fundamental tax codes changes by Thursday, it aint going to happen," Graham said.
Bernie Sanders up now.
buffett buys preferred GE. sharks has come out to swim. and if you gonna complain about the being a GE shareholder and getting robbed, just imagine what would happen if he doesn't buy.
Oddly, DeMint said that the socialization of healthcare and energy was the cause of the problems in those industries.
I had no idea those industries were socialized...what I learn from watching cspan.
Because the bills language has not yet been finalized, Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.) has yet to decide if he will support it, David Carle, a spokesman for the senator, said this afternoon.
Leahy contributed provisions that would restore judicial oversight to administrative financial policies.
Senators are scheduled to vote on both amendments during a busy evening session that begins at 7:30 p.m.
merciless---Demint sounded like Rush Limbaugh's minio
Are credit unions safer then banks?
I read it all Otis.
Good post.
I stopped being able to read Ayn Rand a long time ago, but ya know, Atlas CAN Shrug.
Shame on you CR readers!! Has the recent absence of Tanta lessened your patience to long posts?
Long live the nerds!
Bernie asks the question I wondered: Who's going to bail out BoA?
Sanders amendment calls for a 10-percent tax surcharge on individuals who make more than $500,000 annually and couples earning more than $1 million.
Sanders will not vote for the broader Senate bailout bill unless it contains the amendment he authored, said Will Wiquist, the senators spokesman today.
Sanders does not expect his amendment to pass, Wiquist added, but would nonetheless pitch it to his colleagues on the Senate floor this afternoon.
The broader Senate proposal, under the sponsorship of Senate Baking Committee Chairman Chris Dodd (D-Conn.), proposes to raise the cap on FDIC-insured bank accounts from $100,000 to $250,000, as well as increase business tax credits for renewable energy.\t
Although the Constitution states that revenue-related legislation must originate in the House of Representatives, the Senate will sidestep the provision by attaching its bail-out measures as amendments to a previously passed House bill (HR 1424) that extends the scope of federal mental health benefits.
otishertz writes:
"welcome to the debtor's prison, where every house is an island".
As the depression starts to bite, drawing more and more in, remember that no man is an island, but he makes a damn fine peninsula.
Toyota's sales results showed that Prius sales were down...interesting.
The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed -- for lack of a better word -- is good.
Greed is right.
Greed works.
Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
Greed, in all of its forms -- greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge -- has marked the upward surge of mankind.
And greed -- you mark my words -- will save that malfunctioning corporation called the USA.
Fox guarding hen house, giving $700 to Goldman's Paulson that fcucker....
sen. Bernie Sanders is kicking some asses
Kona writes:
Sanders amendment calls for a 10-percent tax surcharge on individuals who make more than $500,000 annually and couples earning more than $1 million.
I can't imagine that anybody would have a problem with this.
Sanders speaking some good points...
I wiser man than myself revealed the solution on a prior thread. If we need to unclog the credit markets there is clearly only one answer:
Brawndo: The Thirst Mutilator. It's got what banks crave. It's got electrolytes.
Thats a nice picture of Paulson that Sanders put on display LOL
What is this guy Sanders, some kind of socialist?
Tell it Sister, say it loud, Independent Senator Bernie Sanders
headslap HP
Mr. Sanders, this is America, and under No Circumstances can you raise taxes.
You might as well go on TV and ask for a human sacrifice instead. You'll have a better chance of that being passed.
I like that picture too, but it would be nice if Bush and bernake's heads were there too!
What is this guy Sanders, some kind of socialist?
Nemo | Homepage | 10.01.08 - 5:40 pm | #
Yup, and proud of it. He is kicking some serious butt.
i think it is very important to examine the implications of the government owning the majority of mortgages, one of the world's largest insurance companies, and untold trillions worth of crap presented at the fed's "back window".
could it be that widespread nationalization is the goal?
again, sorry for the long winded post. i did hide a few points in there for those of you with patience.
(just watched three fighter jets flying low outside my window here in portland.)
I hear Sanders likes chicken--- oops--sorry
"What happens when all the car dealerships go belly up and the radio promotions people have no place to go? And the newspapers have no one to advertise? Will that $30 per foot auto dealership land be worth $.20 per foot?"
A guy with bright red skin who looks like Mick Jagger walks out onto the floor of the NYSE and sings,
"Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste..."
Just called Bernie's office and told them, he is on fire and I am going to name my first born after him. Asked for a Filabuster too.
In 1770, Ethan Allen, his brothers Ira and Levi, and Seth Warner recruited an informal militia, the Green Mountain Boys, to protect the interests of the original New Hampshire settlers against the new migrants from New York. When a New York judge arrived in Westminster with New York settlers in March 1775, violence broke out as angry citizens took over the courthouse and called a sheriff's posse. This resulted in the deaths of Daniel Houghton and William French in the "Westminster Massacre."
Obama should have given the speech that Sanders is giving now.
I always laugh when US Congresscritters put up these ridiculous billboards. I mean seriously...
(just watched three fighter jets flying low outside my window here in portland.)
otishertz
Stay calm. I don't think the roundups have started quite yet.
Stop appologizing Otis. Length is good!!
(Width isn't so bad, either.)
Re: I am going to name my first born after him
I'm gone change my name, screw it! Call me Sandy!
merciless writes:
Obama should have given the speech that Sanders is giving now.
Sorry, Sanders is not enough of a sellout to qualify to run for President.
OT: Buffett strikes again. GE 10/10/10. Atta boy!!
Lliz,
You scamp!
Greed is the selfish desire for or pursuit of money, wealth, power, food, or other possessions, especially when this denies the same goods to others. It is generally considered a vice, and is one of the seven deadly sins in Catholicism.
Sorry, Sanders is not enough of a sellout to qualify to run for President.
Don't I know it.
Call and support Bernie at 202-224-5141
Bernie Sanders appears on Thom Hartmann's radio show on Friday I believe.
He deserves to be lauded with praise. I bet he doesn't get more than 5 Senators to join with him in voting against the POS.
Whoooo, me?
Let me know when we get to the hyper-inflation part of this movie.
this is a political bail-out
Nice slideshow put on by Sanders!!
Big news here...
BofA shutting off credit cards based off ficas
BoA to close credit cards for approximately 60% of customers? - iTulip.com
Or... we can ask those that made the most.. they got drunk, smoked crack, had unprotected sex...
i'll move to Vermont
Man...The c-span and cnbc links are so slow...Looks like a lot of ppl are tuned in..
Kona writes:
Greed is the selfish desire for or pursuit of money, wealth, power, food, or other possessions, especially when this denies the same goods to others. It is generally considered a vice, and is one of the seven deadly sins in Catholicism.
The sins of religions are being updated to suit the new reality.
Senator Bernie Sanders (I-VT) fighting Wall Street Bailout
YouTube - Senator Bernie Sanders (I-VT) fighting Wall Street Bailout
Mentalic writes:
Man...The c-span and cnbc links are so slow...Looks like a lot of ppl are tuned in..
I've looked all over for an online link to CNBC. Where do you get it?
Sanders has my vote. Sanders for President. to hell with Obama and McCai
Yah, put up the faces of those crooks and bring out the hounds, go hunt them down!
Ju writes:
i'll move to Vermont
The headquarters for Ben & Jerry's is there, so you'll get lots of ice cream with your ponies.
Go to Sanders site and sign his petition Sanders.senate.gov
I called Sanders office & said I approved. I talked to a real live person too. Thanks for the phone number.
all ficos under 750 as of 10-1 until further notice at Bank of America.
Sorta OT, but gives a picture of what we're up against.
Oakland CA homes listed for sale on on Zillow in the last 24 hours...
...29 (63%) are REO's
... 8 (17%) are short sales
... 1 (2%) is Probate
... 6 (18%) are apparantly not stressed sales.
Housing problems aren't going away anytime soon.
What this bill really needs - more cowbell.
out of curiousity, what is the technical distinction between recession and depression?
Apart from the "my neighbor's job vs my job.."
I'm voting for this guy to, I was gonna burn my vote on Abe Lincoln as a write-in, but Sanders is my new write-in! Does anyone else in The Senate have balls?
Vermonters have b@lls, if the senator is any example.
Mr. Sanders from Vermont let them have it!
Bernie Sanders basically made the rest of the Senate ashamed if they had that capability.
Re: "What this bill really needs - more cowbell."
This not called a bailout anymore, they call it a buy-in and other cool things
Jeff Sessions up now. Praising Mr. Sanders.
Voting Against bill.
I wish that, instead of just putting up their faces, he'd have put up their email addresses too.
Stop me if you've heard this, a chick walks into the Senate:
John Poirier
1 hour, 50 minutes ago
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation is seeking temporary unlimited borrowing authority from the Treasury Department, according to a copy of the final Senate bailout legislation on Wednesday
I know, it just cracks me up over and over and over....
Great tan! Nice tie!
homedad43 writes:
out of curiousity, what is the technical distinction between recession and depression?
Economic textbooks I've browsed typically define a depression as 8 consecutive quarters of negative GDP - with substantial contraction in all economic activity and commensurate rise in the unemployment rate. That's fine with me, and I expect we'll get it.
above post-might be hoax..my bad
Thank U Naive People Of China:
Its on the CR home page....The article for which this is the comment thread....
Why do all these GOP jokers waste time talking about Amtrak? This is about the friggin bailout bill, not choo choos you simpletons
That's fine with me, and I expect we'll get it.
Persecuted Comrade Anonymouse
Ugh, not fine with me but I expect it too. ;(
it is truly time for a revolt.
if 1-2% of depositors withdrew their money, all the corrupt greedyfuckers would be out of business
mark this, very soon all bank withdrawals will be halted for an indeterminate time.
I'm sorry, is he talking about trains?
Are they voting on bailing out trains? Because I hate trains.
Damn, I can't see the feed on my client's network. Did they get to the part where Angelo Mozillo helps with the bailout by repaying his bonuses that were based on fraudulent mortgage originations?
WTF? Sessions is talking about Amtrak?
Loved Bernie's hall of shame. Go git 'em!
They're talking about amtrak because that bill is up too. Also it's better to talk about amtrak than to take credit for being a republican senator during the Bush administration.
What the hell is this guy talking about?
Eat food on Amtrak....Flights dont leave on time...Trains do...
Are these guys discussing the bailout or what?
train to nowhere.
I'm actually getting some business.
A foreclosee whose wife/girl friend is not on title, is planning to buy in his same neighborhood at roughly 1/3rd of the peak value. He's an appraiser. He drank deeply of the Kool Aide. I yelled at him repeatedly. Now, I think, he's finally getting the message.
On thinking of it Otis, by the time your scenario comes to be, so many people will have walked, that the bagholder will be the gov-mint. Remember these rich guys aren't really all that smart. Especially bankers. I have been complaining to the hub about how stupid they are since the early 80s and they are still stupid.
Is that thing about Bof A true? You go to pay for lunch and your card is cut off without notice?
John Candy & Steve Martin
YouTube - John Candy & Steve Martin
From the movie Planes Trains & Automobiles this scen...
ow he's going over the AMT
Now Schumer is kissing Obama's ring.
Ok, ok, Amtrack sucks, but what about this bailout proposal, have oyu been in rehab?
Hey, Schumer's up!
Any banks on your mind, Senator? NatCity? Citigroup? Don't be shy; let us know!
Sanders could never run for President, he's a Socialist and we all know "Socialist" is a dirty word in this country. That being said, I love Bernie.
asilla & charybdis shoutout!
This guy is speaking above my head!
Get off, booo!
"Last week it was overwhelmingly, 'Vote no'; the tone has changed," Sen. Charles Schumer (D-NY) told CNBC Wednesday morning. "You never can predict on something like this until you have the votes, but on the Senate side there seems like there is broad, bipartisan support. If I had to guess I would say that it would pass both bodies."
scylla not that it matters
Is there any chance Pelosi could make her speech before the Senate vote?
From crossingwallstreet, lazy to see it for myself:
CrossingWallStreet.com: HR 1424
If you turn to page 299, you'll find:
20 SEC. 503. EXEMPTION FROM EXCISE TAX FOR CERTAIN
21 WOODEN ARROWS DESIGNED FOR USE BY
22 CHILDREN.
23 (a) IN GENERAL.Paragraph (2) of section 4161(b)
24 is amended by redesignating subparagraph (B) as sub
1 paragraph (C) and by inserting after subparagraph (A)
2 the following new subparagraph:
3 (B) EXEMPTION FOR CERTAIN WOODEN
4 ARROW SHAFTS.Subparagraph (A) shall not
5 apply to any shaft consisting of all natural
6 wood with no laminations or artificial means of
7 enhancing the spine of such shaft (whether sold
8 separately or incorporated as part of a finished
9 or unfinished product) of a type used in the
10 manufacture of any arrow which after its as
11 sembly
12 (i) measures 5⁄16 of an inch or less in
13 diameter, and
14 (ii) is not suitable for use with a bow
15 described in paragraph (1)(A)..
16 (b) EFFECTIVE DATE.The amendments made by
17 this section shall apply to shafts first sold after the date
18 of enactment of this Act.
If you think you or someone you know may be having a heart attack:
Call 911 within a few minutes5 at the mostof the start of symptoms.
If your symptoms stop completely in less than 5 minutes, still call your doctor.
Only take an ambulance to the hospital. Going in a private car can delay treatment.
Take a nitroglycerin pill if your doctor has prescribed this type of medicine.
O, by the way, is now neck and neck in fraudulent Florida. The State in which Palm Beach County is, where they can't find ballots.
He'll do what he thinks is best after inauguration, so this is only a 4 month mess I think.
Then we will be faced with a who knows how long mess.
Ooo, I love it when he rips off his glasses for dramatic effect.
Someone should cast Schumer as Lex Luthor. Just another inch or two of receding hairline and he'd be perfect.
Why i don't believe Schumer when he's talking ?
Comrade Kristina, remember that a government big enough to give you everything is big enough to take it all AWAY! For the good of the masses of course. If you have a problme with that we may have to reduce your ration of meat to 0.5 Kg per month.
Re: Ooo, I love it when he rips off his glasses for dramatic effect.
Way too fast and reckless IMHO!
He failed the actor studio
Lawyerliz writes:
O, by the way, is now neck and neck in fraudulent Florida.
Liz (if I may call you Liz), I live in Orlando by the "crucial I-4 corridor" - and I don't see how O wins this area. There's so much pent up hatred for "elitist taxing liberals" + he's black.
Comrade Kristina, remember that a government big enough to give you everything is big enough to take it all AWAY! For the good of the masses of course. If you have a problme with that we may have to reduce your ration of meat to 0.5 Kg per month.
diogenes | 10.01.08 - 6:02 pm | #
I understand that part, I just wonder why my current government gives me nothing, yet still takes everything away? Big Bird is flabbergasted!
otishertz writes: (a long thoughful post with no misogynistic objectification)
Thanks for the post... given the low signal-to-noise ratio here in recent days, glad to have something meaty like this to chew on!
The biggest flaw in your argument is that it presupposes these people are thinking through the implications of what they are doing: I wish I could see any sign of that in their ad-hocracy. The competence of a conspiracy deviously leading us to our doom would be almost a relief. But everywhere we step, it's just more Black Swan sh*t.
It's clear our government isn't too big to fail.
OMG, of all things to come up!
Glad I wasn't drinking anything, it would be all over my screen now. I sincerely hope the "scope" will be extended to the point that all us worker bees can freely attend therapy, since this whole thing has been such a mindf*ck. And complaining about it will be all we have left to occupy ourselves with.
Lawyer is correct but I'd put width over length >; )
Wrote to Sauders myself just after he finished. I wish my CA reps had 1/5 of his balls. Go Bernie!
Oh holy cats, now Domenici is up. He's very, very sick. He should be home in bed.
Fannie & Freddie: The Real Story Behind The Economic Crisis
YouTube -
Hmm?
Lawyerliz --
If the retired Jewish couples in Florida vote for the 40-something black guy over the Vietnam war hero, surely we'll have a landslide.
Wait, let me check something...
...holy cow, Intrade agrees.
McCain is in serious trouble.
i am beyond disgusted
the senate taking up this legislation after defeat in the house is nothing less than a violation of article one of the constitution
we have departed long ago from the rule of law
i will be putting up signs around the 9th congressional district against the incumbent after he votes again! for the bailout
700 billion..chump change compared with the money this black hole will eventually devour
i dont care if they screw me...im not much of a lay
but the bastards are screwing our children.
please put a sign in the rear window of your car
"no bankster bailout"
and drive real slow in the right lane!!!
Liz and Anonymouse, I'm seeing alot of unexpected obama signs lately in the wealthy parts of Lakeland (central florida)
Re: Florida. I live on the Panhandle, GWB country and I've seen maybe five or six McCain signs. There is absolutely no enthusiasm for him here at all, maybe Reps have said they simply won't vote. Florida is in play. I just registered two 70 something, white ladies this week as Dems. Also, Palin hurt McCain down here with the Jewish community.
Felix Salmon has an interesting line of thought on Warren Buffett and Wells Fargo:
"He owns 9% of Wells Fargo, which means that if Wells Fargo bought Wachovia, he'd essentially be taking on 9% of Wachovia's liabilities, including its $312 billion mortgage portfolio. It's easy to see that in the wake of the Goldman deal, he might not have been particularly excited about the Wachovia deal.
And it's almost unthinkable that Kovacevich wasn't talking to Buffett, his largest and most loyal shareholder.
But there's a conflict there: it's entirely conceivable that the deal would have been good for Wells Fargo even if it didn't fit into Berkshire Hathaway's broader risk strategy. If Kovacevich is taking marching orders from Buffett, that's kinda scandalous, especially now that Goldman Sachs, another core Buffett holding, is a bank and therefore a competitor.
But Buffett has rare and special powers. Just look at BRK-B: it rose on Monday, during the worst stock-market crash in years, and then fell on Tuesday when the rest of the market was up sharply. When things get really bad, it seems, people look to Berkshire Hathaway as a safe haven. Don't they know that it's extremely leveraged (like all insurance companies), doesn't pay any dividends, and is largely invested in the stock market?"
Shareholder lawsuits, anyone? How about a subpoena of any conversations between Buffett and WF's CEO?
Comrade Kristina wrote: I understand that part, I just wonder why my current government gives me nothing, yet still takes everything away?
If you can still write the above without going to a re-edumacation camp or to the gulag your government via your creator is giving you something!
maybe amtrak is the next shoe to fall
Report Shows White House Engineered U.S. Attorney Firings
TPMMuckraker | Talking Points Memo | Report Shows White House Engineered U.S. Attorney Firings
It shows that during 2005 and 2006, White House officials received complaints about Iglesias from New Mexico Republicans, primarily Sen. Pete Domenici, Rep. Heather Wilson, and state party chair Allen Weh. Many of the complaints centered around Iglesias' apparent decision not to bring an indictment against a Democratic state official in a public corruption case before the midterms -- a subject of particular interest to Domenici -- as well as Iglesias' perceived unwillingness to aggressively prosecute voter fraud cases against organizers allied with Democra
comrade Kristina --the panhandle? wow! Mccain is so screwed
I commute between Hialeah (Miami) and
Merritt Island. South Florida really isn't a part of the South.
It's what I heard in the car on NPR.
The son lives in Tampa.
Cubans by the way, mostly think of themselves as Cuban first, and whatever race they are as a distant 2nd.
It's just I am tired of living in the state infamous for screwing up elections.
And of course you may call me liz.
I'm new to this political shit, is there a role call or a way to know the order of who will speak? Do they post that?
Kona wrote:
Report Shows White House Engineered U.S. Attorney Firings
Uh Kona, you do remember when Bill Clinton took over he fired ALL the U.S. Attornies and replaced them with lackies mostly from the gloriums peoples republic of Arkansas...you do remember don't you?
diogenes, Iglesias is a loyal republican and was fired because he stopped carrying water.
...holy cow, Intrade agrees.
Not particularly relevant but Intrade charges a 5% commission on each contract bought or sold. That's 10% for a roundtrip trade... Now I understand how they make money!
It's hard to drum up public outrage when the TV media is so obviously slanted toward the bailout. I don't know how many times I heard about the "$1.2T loss" on Monday - nary a peep on the $7B gain on Tuesday.
to temporarily suspend proceedings while informal consultations and negotiations occur among Senators off the public record, either on or off the Senate floor. Senate rules provide ample opportunities for filibusters, so Senators attempt to obtain the widest possible agreement on the Senate schedule, procedural problems, and policy decisions, either to avoid a filibuster or bring one to an end. It is often easier for Senators to reach these agreements through informal discussions during quorum calls than through the Senate's formal rules of debate. When the conversations end, the Senate agrees to a unanimous consent request to terminate the quorum call and resume formal proceedings.
to actually call Senators to the floor to record their presence. This alternative type of quorum call -- a "live quorum" call -- stands in contrast to the those used to delay or suspend the Senate' floor proceedings; here Senators names are called more quickly. The Senate's rules require that live quorum calls occur immediately before a cloture vote or before the Senate acts on a unanimous consent agreeement to set a date and time for voting on whether to pass a bill or joint resolution. Also, the Senate Majority leader occasionally suggests the absence of a quorum and announces a live quorum call because he wishes to bring the Senators to the floor.
Page not Found - THOMAS (Library of Congress)
Proverbs 22:7 Truer words were never spoken!
Yeah, the Panhandle. I still see "W" stickers but hardly any McCain. I've seen almost as many O stickers and yard signs. I've had customers asking me how they can get an O bumper sticker. McCain is toast in Florida. He better pray they can steal Ohio for him.
Please. Dont. Feed. The. Politics.
Sorry.
Ok the speaker from NJ can go pound sand
Sorry, off to work anyway. Wish I could watch the rest of the "debate"
How is this Senate vote not politics?
I need some snacks!
Just called Bernie Sanders office, they answered right away, very pleasant, told them he did a good job and said I oppose bailout.
Domencini (R N.M) OTH, says "We probably will MAKE MONEY on this investment!
BoA to close credit cards for approximately 60% of customers?
Anyone have independant proof that this is true or not?
oops-thanks lawyerliz ;)---also Ohio, comrade kristina, seems to be in play but I was shocked driving throught the state at how many confederate battle flags people displayed--racism might skew the vote--otherwise we have a landslide
Panhandle will vote McCain in every county, or I didn't grow up with Joe Scarbrough.
Oh noez...I can't haz a credit card?
i think cd said it may be a false rumor about the boa credit card
That would be pretty major news about BofA. Kind of hard to believe. Havent heard anything like that. Anyone else?
That's weird. B of A just offered me a credit card today.
I wonder what % of the pop rely on CC debt to get by each month. If BofA does this, I expect others to follow.... if true
Shelby up now. Asked for 15 minutes.
sellout Shelby speaking
That's weird. B of A just offered me a credit card today.
Reminds me of "but I can't be overdrawn, I still have checks left"
I wonder how many people, upside down on their mortgages, lost their job, and pissed about a $700B bailout are maxing their ccds before they BK.
He better pray they can steal Ohio for him.
Comrade Kristina
They already covered that in the '04 election. It will be a different state this time.
Senate Reps already admitted days ago they will vote yes for the bill, even without the free toaster (FDIC changes). Shelby should introduce the Roubini Plan (Bloomberg Radio 9/28). Shelby is a wise man.
learningcurve writes
"Reminds me of "but I can't be overdrawn, I still have checks left"
lol
Well i def won't take them up on the offer. I don't use credit cards.
They can't just wipe out cc debt, in bk like they usta.
And I think this whole thing is extremely political, so I think political comments are appropriate.
Especially from the State that Excels in Screwing Up Elections.
But no more hanging chads.
--racism might skew the vote--otherwise we have a landslide
godhatesfangs
They say that Obama needs to be up by at least 8% to account for the racist vote, and those who will NEVER vote for a black man. NEVER EVER EVER.
"O, by the way, is now neck and neck in fraudulent Florida."
GEE, That's wonderful!
BTW - O is a 2-bit hustler. The gravy train forms behind O!
Wait just a second on Schumer and The FICO score relating to car sales. He says you need a high FICO to buy a car, as if that is bad, and that this bill he supports is need to free up credit -- thus he wants to change peoples FICO scores by lending wall street $700 B?
That is retarded! The FICO score is based on the credit of the individual and if they have done well with saving money, how will this bailout help them? Adversely, if this bill passes, FICO scores are going to be dropped so that people with poor credit scores can buy cars they can't afford?
This is the heart of the incorrect thinking about this! We can't solve this problem by lowering the bar and giving bailouts to people that mis-manage cash; that starts on wall street, with reckless lending..WTF?
But there are only 2 choices, and I am not gonna write in Snoopy.
They say that Obama needs to be up by at least 8% to account for the racist vote, and those who will NEVER vote for a black man. NEVER EVER EVER.
Thank U Naive People Of China
add to that the sickening "Magic Muslim" campaign.
Shelby bragging about being on the "Banking Committee since the S&L crisis" yet not hearing a "mea culpa" for how he tried to prevent this fiasco.
Lawyerliz writes:
But there are only 2 choices, and I am not gonna write in Snoopy.
LMAO....
New Ben and Jerry's flavor coming soon: "Squirrelism. THE new flavor of 21st century America."
Shelby is on the wagon?
I'm at work with a slow connection.
Whats everyone saying? Are we going forward with the bill?
.....
Lliz,
I worry about people being blocked from discharging debts owned by the government in the manner that student loans follow one around for life. bankruptcy laws have been altered by bushco to make it more difficult to discharge debts.
there are not supposed to be debtors prisons in this "free" society. if a person's wal-mart wages are garnered to cover unsecured loans irresponsibly lent then that person is an occupationally imprisoned debt slave.
the current regime is continually changing the rules. i would not be surprised to see exchanges shut down in the near future. already i have been blocked from trading certain futures options by "technical problems at the exchange" concurrently with obvious forced price movements. also have seen bizarre extreme otherworldly bid ask spreads on options that block trades at certain times.
i layed down the armageddon put with no stops and backed up off it. i say 50% chance the gov finds a way to block its profitability. which is to say that i see half a chance i'll have to hire someone to seek remuneration in court should this trade go well. if the trade goes poorly i will be thankful the worst did not come to pass.
loss of confidence in markets and exchanges is a big problem. the guv buying up the private sector in bulk does nothing to increase my confidence.
and liz, i thought it was the motion of the ocean...
People I know are sorta putting some frugality in their lives, even the
spendthrifty ones. I think it will become the fashion.
Shelby "I was troubled" me,me,me
Elmo guitar said to be hot; if they lower credit scores, more kids will get these toys, help now, vote for walmart!
Speed writes:
I wonder how many people, upside down on their mortgages, lost their job, and pissed about a $700B bailout are maxing their ccds before they BK.
I'm wondering whether this is not such a bad idea after all. Draw out a cash advance up to my limit on all cards, put the money under my mattress or just spend it, and then declare bankruptcy.
Seems like the system is set up to reward people who do this, and that I'm really missing out by paying my debt off monthly, and maintaining my credit rating.
Senate most certainly will pass the bill and bailout walmart for XMAS -- bullshit. Peole need to be accountable for debt and wall street should not be allowed to lend recklessly!
ades, Shelby is up now, having asked for 15 minutes, and is talking about how none of this is his fault.
ades --
It is guaranteed to pass the Senate tonight. Today's speeches are pure bluster. CNBC will carry it to make a point.
The House on Friday is the only chance to stop it, and it is looking like it will pass there, too.
One big. I TOLD YOU SO
Does anyone know if the upcoming FASB rules about reporting CDS positions will change with the bill?
Nemo writes:
I think CR started a new thread because he knew I was at lunch.
LOL ! ! ! !
Shelby is voting no, and clearly understands Senate Reps have committed to passing this bill.
"But there are only 2 choices, and I am not gonna write in Snoopy."
Yellow Dog?
Kona writes:
Senate most certainly will pass the bill and bailout walmart for XMAS -- bullshit. Peole need to be accountable for debt and wall street should not be allowed to lend recklessly!
You need to adjust, and act like an American, or just get out.
The ignorant commies in China are more than willing to subsidize us, so quit complaining, and SPEND SPEND SPEND.
This Shelby speech is almost as disgusting as Pelosi's on Monday.
Would that it could have the same effect.
Anon 6:32 was me.
LawyerLiz: You're right! Economics & politics are always intertwined.
merciless, Nemo.
Thanks!
He's not even mentioning the shafts.
WHEN WILL SOMEBODY TALK ABOUT THE SHAFTS!?
What is he going to do when he clearly knows his own party leaders have already decided to go along with the bill?
That's why they used to call it "political economy."
GUYS tell themselves it is the motion of the ocean. Girls who like them don't disabuse them of this belief.
But circumference certainly has its charms. . .
And nobody yells at me for, errrrr, injecting sex. . .
into the discussion.
Mkt goes down to 9000, I am in with my pittance. I never do anything fancy. Too chicken.
I know Nemo maybe this gives cover to the dems to vote no---naaah
The shafts are part of HR 1424 of 2007, not this ammendment.
The House on Friday is the only chance to stop it, and it is looking like it will pass there, too.
Nemo
This thing passed the minute it was put on the table two weeks ago. Predicted here, and correct as usual.
But we got some saddles and spurs to go with our Ponies, so we should get on our knees and thank them for that.
Shelby invented the self bailout
Shelby doesn't think this will work, and worries that raising FDIC insurance is going to be a problem, since the FDIC doesn't have that kind of money.
Depression is better defined as a loss of hope VS a recession as defined as temporary loss of income. I do believe this is a depression because watching all this BS has made me realize...I am depressed. Not to mention the dispair that goes along with the knowledge of what got us here in the 1st place. This is a slow cooking stew that was seasoned by each administration since the "New Deal" and the main course is finally finished. Shall we have desserts?
This US Attorney probe is different than Clintons. Apparently the Bush White House pressured US Attorneys to file false charges against prominent Democrates who were up for re-election. Failure to file the charges resulted in the attorneys being discharged.
Doesn't FDIC have all the money is the world now, or with this bill?
Shelby said he voted against the Chrysler bailout. He's not sure if Paulson is right or wrong.
Wasn't there a joke in there...banks get the coal mine. Taxpayers get the shaft?
Lawyerliz --
I frequently feel thankful for my Italian genes.
OK, enough politics and sex. Can we please stick to the primary topic of this blog, which is anti-Semitism?
shafts and circumference...
dios mio!
.....
Shelby: "...and we chose panic".
I can not argue with the man over that truth.
Lawyerliz said: "GUYS tell themselves it is the motion of the ocean. Girls who like them don't disabuse them of this belief.
But circumference certainly has its charms. . .
And nobody yells at me for, errrrr, injecting sex. . .
into the discussion...."
Jesus, what's on that live feed that you all are watching? Did CR deliberately mis-label it "live feed from C-SPAN2" so as not to draw any attention to it?
S.
Just think how a Friday House rejection coupled with weekend market gaming will screw the Asian market players and allow a traders paradise.
Any idea what time the House will vote on Friday?
Nelson (D-FL) up now. He hates the bill, but I can't tell if he's a yea or a nay.
Nelson (D-FL) makes a good point. This bill will benifit the banks and not the homeowners who are in trouble. "If you play fast and loose the government will make up the losses"
Lawyerliz -- in what part of Florida do you reside?
ades, you have a dirty mind.
The shafts are kids wooden arrow shafts.
Better than squirrel jokes.
Nelson's a nay.
yea bill nelson!
I just finished dinner so I can't watch CSPAN as I paid good money for my food and don't want to lose it but has any of these Senators noted that we already have a bailout plan and it takes effect today.
The FHA has $300 billion available to refinance any deadbeat who can get his bank to accept 90% of the current appraised value of the property up to $550,000. Assuming a national average
decline in home prices of 20% and a further write down of 10% banks can around 70% on the dollar for their bad mortgage loans. Is this not enough? What is Paulson going to have to pay if banks wont take this?
merciless writes:
Nelson's a nay.
Half is constituents are probably facing foreclosure
Nelson calls upon for an investigation of the rating agencies. "This bill does not address the real problem: foreclosures. I oppose this bill, Congress can do better."
1904 -- Teddy's Square Deal
1932 -- FDR's New Deal
2008 -- Bush's Raw Deal
MR--during the week, Hialeah/Miami.
Weekends in Merritt Island. Hub works for NASA doing weather tech stuff and supervising contractors.
Who are excellent.
Ok, this just in from the tinfoil hat. This whole bailout bill is designed to be so ugly so awful, that if The Republicans look like they are for it, it sets up The Stage for Democrats to defeat it as a moral issue, but in this soap opera, the whole point is to set up McCain as the guy who will be President -- hence, if The Democrats do the right thing, they lose the election, if they do the wrong thing and support this, they set up future failure for Obama.
This is all politics and the money is actually not that big of deal (spread out over 10 years). The bigger deal is who gets access to the money in the form of lobby money, so that is why, this drama is a no-win deal that is in place just to divert attention from the shit that was already happening -- then again, I'm low on blood sugar...
I live in Destin, FL (panhandle) and
I also believe McCain's support level is below Bush's margin in the past two
elections. McCain will not help himself in Florida by voting for this bailout.
Further, I am frequently in Georgia and Sen. Chambliss, who is supporting the bailout, will be defeated by Jim Martin a democrat that does not support the bailout.
081001_620pedt
listening to all the tv and web coverage of the current crisis gets me so frustrated....
bad enough mr bush, mr paulson, and mr bernanke with all the scare tactics but all the wheels spouting for the last week make it clear nobody really knows how bad this risk is or is not. the real problem is nobody speaks the truth anymore... it is quite clear that the current problem is due to everybody running on borrowed $ that they can't pay back on time. they includes yes, some that took mortgages but also many that bought those mortgages...many with hefty leverage factors so they could bet with higher odds (but they were bad bets). then there is our crazy govt...printing (borrowing) $ to keep propping up the big house of cards.... those saying the RTC paid back forget the reason is that the govt kept pumping to keep the house of cards in place so it would appear there was payback...but look at the nat'l debt history...the taxpayers didn't make a dime on the RTC....just put the debt off for another day...maybe today.
EVENTUALLY, the house of cards will fall and the pain will be difficult. IF ppl want to prop the house of cards up a while longer, admit what you are proposing and think about who should pay the price....don't just put it on the national credit card. mr sanders idea for a 10% tax increase (or maybe it should be 20%) on any ann'l gross income >$500k isn't bad... maybe some of the countries that hold lots of our nat'l debt could write a check. warren buffet even says he won't work on borrowed $...he plays with CASH ($10B min on hand at all times!). call a spade a spade....those that want to borrow $ create an obligation for themselves to pay it back. my country and everybody else in this country need to start living within their means and taking responsibility for obligations they take one....you can't be expecting everybody else to pay for your mistakes....and the govnt's job is to make sure nobody lets the house of cards get so big it puts all of the citizens with no debt at risk......
this has gotten bigger than any of us can probably comprehend so
god help us all...please
Does anyone have a pretally of tonight's vote?
Lawyerliz,
I got a kick out of a woman pushing some buttons. It drives me nuts when posters pick on people (presumably women) with female handles.
......
oooo Graham's up!
Lindsay Graham (R:SC) just dissed all his angry phone callers. He loves the bill.
I HATE LINDSEY GRAHAM WITH A BURNING PASSION! Did you hear him just explain why he feels justified in ignoring people who call his office? Gah!
Talking about getting phone calls to his office telling him what to do!
Lawyerliz,
Too bad, I'll be visiting family on the Gulf Coast for the week of election, we are from Baltimore, too. I've enjoyed your comments and thought we could have a coffee.
MR
Destinbear that's good news!
Rumor - major insurer is about to go belly up!
Borrowing money is the lifeblood of the economy. More debt! The mad phone callers can stuff it.
So says Lindsay.
so it's 70-30 for
Lindsay Graham (R:SC) just dissed all his angry phone callers. He loves the bill.
merciless
I might move to SC just to vote him out... What a prick....
......
..."the beatings will continue, until morale improves".
Oh Graham . . .I'm not responsible I need government to help me b/c I'm too stupid to be responsible for myself.
F OFF!!
crispy & cole --
Rumor - major insurer is about to go belly up!
AIG?
Rumor - major insurer is about to go belly up!
crispy& cole
C&C got a link or is this fresh from the bankerdome?
.....
They really believe in the magic real estate fairy.
crispy& cole writes:
Rumor - major insurer is about to go belly up!
I will fall on my ass laughing if you tell me it's AIG.
Damn you Nemo, first at everything!
Another dip shit talking about peoples losing money in their 401k plans without mentioning they were sold to them by the same den of snakes that caused this mess. Too Much.
Well, not half are in foreclosure, but certainly a lot. Lots are my clients.
That bailout thing will not work, because it's not mandatory, and won't work in the areas I'm familar with because we are going to end up somewhere between 40% and 65% off peak. You can get a house half off if you look right now. A NICE house.
Well, I'm leaving. Carry on without me.
Money Man said: "...Depression is better defined as a loss of hope VS a recession as defined as temporary loss of income. I do believe this is a depression because watching all this BS has made me realize...I am depressed. Not to mention the dispair that goes along with the knowledge of what got us here in the 1st place...."
Well, fortunately for us all I think we're just about to see the low point for our despair, the Vice-Presidential Debate. Palin doesn't know the difference between Hamas and humous, while Biden thinks we had television in the 1930's.
I'm going to start drinking now and watch "Iron Man" instead. Hopefully, things will be better after tonight.
S.
I was watching football this weekend (a rarity) with the boys and a Principal insurance commerical kept coming on.
I kept commenting that I hadnt heard anything from them or other insurance companies other than AIG.
I bet there are a few more that have some skeletons in the closet....
.....
...sheez, does this guy have the just got pumped by the neighbor cat look or what!
GRAHAM don't get it the credit era is OVER for EVER
Hartford???
Did he say 70 Senators support this bill? Is this all posturing now and the vote has already taken place.
Why aren't we calling for the impeachment of Senator Dodd, head of the senate banking. This tomfoolery took place on his watch. Dodd is a total incompetent.
Impeach Dodd NOW!
alking about getting phone calls to his office telling him what to do!
I sent email to my 2*S/calif and then called their offices later - complemented the Senators on their dedication and service, but wanted to voice my opposition to the bill.
AIG?
Nemo | Homepage | 10.01.08 - 6:48 pm | #
LMFAO!!!
How does Graham guarentee that this will solve the problem, he better put it in writing and when it passes and it fails he should be tared and feathered. "to the people of South Carolina, I've got your message too, but at the end of the day I've got to rely on the good sense that God gave me, and I know what is going to happen if I don't take a risk" (inferred and vote for this bill) WOW he is voting AGAINST what all the phone calls of his constituients are saying because he says he knows better "I know it's a bad choice but I need to act and I will."
Come on C&C whos is it?
Or are you holding out for the hat-tip...
You just cant drop rumors like that and bail on us! ! ! !
Re: Rumor - major insurer is about to go belly up!
I hope it's Buffett!
Graham says" I learned everything i need to know about politics from my dad's liquor store"
ministry of truth --that's what's going on here.
Sebastian - its good to have you on our side now...pass me a drink too!
Harry Reid spilled the beans on the major insurance company during his press conf but now his spokesman says he wasn't talking about any specific company.
It wouldn't surprise me though - a friend who represents lots of insurers says they're all hurting.
Kerry (D:France) up now.
yeah, and probably a whore house...pimp!!
Graham says" I learned everything i need to know about politics from my dad's liquor store"
Sigh.
Yeah, CR doesn't give as many hat tips anymore...CR is a credit hog!
Rumor - major insurer is about to go belly up!
OK, which rumor mill if u can't cough up the ticker