So why didn't Wachovia/Citi proceed like WaMu/JPM? In other words, the FDIC first seized WaMu and then sold the assets to JPM. Here it seems that transaction is between WB and Citi/WFC.
I don't care too much about the creative merger/destruction process especially whether it becomes a case of who has bigger lawyers. I just want it made clear that no matter what path the events take they are ALL at significant cost to the taxpayer. It's one thing to suffer but quite another to be told at the same time you are feeling fine. Multibillion multiyear tax breaks are less taxpayer friendly than FDIC which is supposedly self funding.
This is what happened: a girl in life danger, her potential financee dropped her at the last minute, deciding it is not worth to save her. At her desperate call, another good bystander made the choice to save her, and provided her food to survive. After recovered, her old potential financee all-of-sudden found her worth more, then proposed marriage again. At the lure of greed,
the girl changed her heart again. Who should be condamed: the girl and ex-financee. At least they're not moral.
Wells dropped WB at the last minute, Citi stepped in at WB's desperate call. If no citi provided liquidity during weekend and early last week, WB should be in bankrupcy. Citi did what a good guy did, unfortunately, both WB and Wells want to profit from it.
Each side pick a representative ultimate fighter. They meet in the octagon; decision under 3 minutes. Sell rights to the video to Wall St. for $1000 pop.
Just how much authority does the Wachovia board have. Seems to me, as bystander points out, it was a case of being taken over by Citi or taken under by the FDIC. As the FDIC arranged this merger I dont' believe Wachovia's board has any say in the matter. They are supernumaries to the transaction.
PeakVT writes:
Only 10 hours until Japan opens. Is it Paulson's turn for the gimmick du jour, or Bernanke's?
I'm watching the futures, that should tell us something. I just don't know what exactly, except that if they are very, very red then Gentle Ben will act, synchronize your watches, we attack on his signal.
That the markets are planning on opening is a good sign. Someday soon some bright wizard is going to come up with a radical stock metric. This measure of the markets' overall health divides weighted stock price by dividends. He'll call it the "earnings ratio" and then back test the results against the last 80 years of trading and come to but one conclusion.
The problem with dick measuring contests is that everyone knows what you've got. The trial will never proceed to discovery as all parties involved are to embarrassed at their... ummm... assets.
I think the media is letting the cat out of the bag this Sunday--the banks won't participate in the bailout if the ceos have to sacrifice anything. They're using the excuse that the mbs shit sandwiches have bottomed and are on their way up.
WB stockholders win if WFC wins, they recoup a little more of their stock price.
The taxpayers lose in either case, probably equally. Either the fed gives some guarantees upfront or Paulson buys crap through the TARP.
Since all reasonable investors (not simply the astute investors) knew that WB was crap and being long on WB was a risky long shot bet, I say burn them, and let C keep WB. At least somebody feels some pain this way.
Looking forward to your contribution to the world's greatest library with all the books piled on the floor (my favorite internet metaphor).
Practical examples of PV setups alongside high density agriculture (urban gardens) and small scale animal husbandry (think chickens and rabbits) rolled into one web site would make a heckuva draw...
gram had it wrong, its wall street that whines,demands help but only on their terms. and is this thing a turf war?king of the hill play? nasty spoiled brats. paulson is leaving 1/19/09 he dont have much time left and is running out of band-aids if he can just hold on then it will be somebody else problem and he can go back on gs. whatever oh well thats the way the cookie crumbles,the ball bounces.
Things are getting more chaotic every day... Was just reading about the Bank Holiday in 1933, on Emergency Banking Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia , as it would seem to me a good idea to close all markets and banks for a week or so, in order to get an idea of how bad it is. I liked what I read:
"Despite the importance of the bill, it was passed in immense haste by Congress. Few, if any, Congressmen had the chance to read the bill; most were only able to hear the clerk read it. Quite a few Congressmen vocally protested the haste in which the bill was considered, but nevertheless it was passed sight unseen."
As I write this, the German government is busying itself with HRE, and the Belgian government is trying to find out how to stop Fortis from imploding.
As a rule I don't drink alcohol before 17.00. Less than 20 minutes to go!
On the Clock writes:
IANAL... how does a New York state judge assume jurisdiction over CA and NC banks?
On the Clock | 10.05.08 - 10:11 am | #
This clause in the exclusivity agreement makes Manhattan the sole domain of any lawsuit related to the agreement. What will most likely happen is that a New York judge will have to apply the laws of another state. Right now there seems to be a question as to whether the board of directors for Wachovia was still under fiduciary duty to consider other offers while under the exclusivity agreement.
"This agreement shall by governed by and construed in accordance with, the laws of the State of New York. The parties hereby irrevocably and unconditionally submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of any state or federal court sitting in the New York City, Borough of Manhattan, over any suit, action or proceeding arising out of or relating to this letter of agreement. The parties hereby irrevocably and unconditionally waive any objection of the laying of venue of any suit action or proceeding brought in any such court and any claim that any such suit, action or proceeding brought in any such court has been brought in an inconvenient forum. The parties hereby agree that a final judgment in any such suit, action or proceeding brought in any such court shall by conclusive and binding upon you and my be enforced in any other courts to whose jurisdiction the parties are or may be subject by suit upon such judgment"
This adds a little suspense , but I think Wells Fargo is the better fit. - CR
Lots of bad fit merger/acquisitions go through - does Citi have a case - are there any real legal remedies for Citi wrt to stopping WF/Wac merger? Does the Fed/FDIC still have an 'interest' in either outcome? Are they the final deal makers deal breakers?
Those are the issues most likely to decide the outcome - not which merger is more logical - yes/no?
The Fed is breaking or at least making up the law as they go. In my view if WF can purchase with out tax payer support the exclusivity agreement should be torn apart. Sorry C but your dealing with a government you can not trust.
godhatesfangs writes:
I think the media is letting the cat out of the bag this Sunday--the banks won't participate in the bailout if the ceos have to sacrifice anything. They're using the excuse that the mbs shit sandwiches have bottomed and are on their way up.
godhatesfangs | 10.05.08 - 10:32 am | #
It is my understanding that they did not limit compensation. Instead they threw a 20% tax on anything over a set amount (can't remember the amount).
LONDON (AFP) - US bank JPMorgan Chase stands accused of precipitating the collapse of American investment bank Lehman Brothers by freezing Lehman assets days before it filed for bankruptcy protection, the Sunday Times reported.
Injuctive relief is not a new phrase, it is a legal term going back, I dunno, at lease 150 years, and probably more like 350 years.
Inter alia, (among other things) it is to prevent something from happening which cannot be undone. Like, you can't scramble an egg. and then unscramble it.
I'm not the first one to say this, but anyone else think this is just part of the planned rope-a-dope delay to get us past the election? Occupy our time with an essentially meaningless fight over a Dead Bank.
Re: Warren Buffett on CNBC. Anyone else notice that Warren 'Superman' Buffett is always around for Becky "Lois Lane" Quick but not for anyother CNBC reporter/ette.
It is my understanding that they did not limit compensation. Instead they threw a 20% tax on anything over a set amount (can't remember the amount).
anyone have the details?
are you kidding me | 10.05.08 - 11:15 am | #
My poorly informed understanding was that the bailout required any NEW CEO compensation agreements to have limits (new as in agreed to after they start unloading their toxics on Hank)... all prior compensation agreements, contracts & parachutes are left untouched.
Jamie writes: I like the term 'Injunctive Relief'....the best thing about this whole crises is the new phrases.
Ditto what Liz said. It's a "new phrase" only because it is jargon that you've never heard before. Sort of the same way "housing price declines" is a 'new phrase.'
The FDIC is in an odd place here. Surely they would like Wells to buy Wachovia because it gets FDIC off the hook for any obligations in a Citi deal, but if they pull their backing for the Citi deal, it might spark a panic and the whole bank might go under. Cthulhu wants these halfwits to stop screwing around with his bank and just close a deal already.
Sarkozy demands banksters give back gains, if banks fail...from the Wash Post. Hey Hanky, you could learn from the French.
a Sarkozy rallying cry, a politically popular stand insisting that high-flying bankers must pay if their institutions go under.
For instance, a top executive at Dexia, a collapsing bank rescued by the French and Belgian governments last week, was forced not only to resign but also to renounce his severance package on insistence from the French government, which since the rescue holds a 25 percent stake in the bank's capital.
(Wash Post, this am.)
Apparatchik ZackAttack:
Someone mentioned Buffett above. Did you know he's still a big shareholder in Wells Fargo? I wonder if he gave his approval to Wells to buy Wachovia.
Did you know he's still a big shareholder in Wells Fargo?
Yes, he is. For the conspiracy minded, perhaps Buffet got the nod to take Wachovia from Citi. Extra conspriacy points if you think the next move is for GS to buy Wells/Wachovia, now that Buffet is part of both.
How about the fact that someone actually WANTS WB because they think they will make money, based on tax deductions on their own PROFITS????? A bank making profits!
Wells is planning on booking profits. Or else every comments on ripping off the taxpayer is a moot point. If the belief is that Wells won't make money to write this off, then this doesn't matter.
People are fighting over a bank with problems.
WB isn't so awful that the only way anyone will look at the is to wipe out all the equity and debt. A surprise to me last week.
Shareholders of WB getting a few $ more.
There seems to be NOTHING that can happen that won't get people more angry. What about if Citi had said "no thanks" and everyone just walked away? The theme would have been that they were liars, opportunists, backing out on a memorandum of understanding as if it were a definitive agreement. etc.
The main news as far as I'm concerned is the idea that someone that actually pays taxes, despite the general belief around here that they are insolvent, wants to buy WB and make money.
I call it good news, just to be first.
Also, it fits into my view that the problem is in the nontraditional banks, investment banks, etc. non bank banks, etc.
Iceland is headed for a world of hurt; this may be a microcosm of our future: The party's over for Iceland, the island that tried to buy the world. Quotes: The bars and restaurants of Iceland's capital are packed, the Range Rovers and BMWs are parked nose to tail
... The krona, Iceland's currency, is in freefall and is rated just above those of Zimbabwe and Turkmenistan.
I think the poster who said that all 3 might be destroyed has a point. Many years ago there was an S&L in Miami which became the subject of a proxy fight. It was destroyed. The S&L I represented was a mutual, which I discovered was meaningless. Every time I closed a loan, I was to give a card to the borrower to give their proxy to the then existing board. Borrowers nearly always signed and so did new account holders. Apparently the proxies lasted until revoked. Which happened when it went out of business 20+ years ago.
Comment to comment in last thread. Just profit sharing is an excellent idea and benefits everybody. After I graduated law school, I joined Chicago Title which had just terminated profit sharing. Employees went from worrying about making sure they kept track of pencils to save money to not giving a $hit. Some bean counter counted some beans and decided that the company could make more money that way without taking human behavior into account one smidge.
I think that some of these problems arise when something gets too big, whether it's corporations or the government, or religion, or anything else. When things get too big the top is too insulated from the bottom.
Frankly, I dodn't know what to do abouot this.
Successful entities grow bigger because they are successful, and as long as they are successful, nobody wants to break them up.
So I think that Ruin's prognotication that there will be a lot of smaller blocks, tho short term messy and dangerous, means that the whole thing doesn't go bang at once.
After all, western europe muddled along just fine for about 4 millenia--starting at about 3500 bc, when the empires which would become the sumerians and Egyptians were arising to the fall of Rome in what? 453? (and then the Bzyantines for another thousand years or so.) Empires came and went, but because power and knowledge was still around, Europe stayed on the up curve. After Rome took over, it took over the whole shebang, so when it fell, there wasn't a power/knowledge reservoir to take over.
October 5, 2008
Mortgage Forgiven for Woman, 90, Who Shot Herself
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Filed at 11:31 a.m. ET
AKRON, Ohio (AP) -- Mortgage finance company Fannie Mae said it is forgiving the mortgage debt of a 90-year-old woman who shot herself in the chest as sheriff's deputies attempted to evict her.
Addie Polk's plight was cited by Rep. Dennis Kucinich, D-Ohio, on Friday before the House voted to approve the $700 billion financial rescue package. Kucinich voted against the plan.
Fannie Mae announced later Friday that it would dismiss its foreclosure action, forgive Polk's mortgage and allow her to return to the Akron home where she's lived since 1970.
''Just given the circumstances, we think it's appropriate,'' Fannie Mae spokesman Brian Faith said, citing Kucinich's statement and news reports. ''It certainly made our radar screen.''
Polk remained in Akron General Medical Center and was expected to recover from chest wounds suffered last week.
She became the home's sole owner in 1995 when her husband died, then took out a mortgage loan in 1997 and refinanced several times, court and property records show.
Countrywide Home Loans filed for foreclosure last year, and Polk's home was sold to Fannie Mae at a sheriff's auction in June. Deputies were to escort Polk from her home Wednesday when gunshots were heard inside.
Polk's longtime neighbor, Robert Dillon, climbed through her window and found her lying in bed bleeding with a gun next to her. He visited Polk in the hospital on Friday.
''She said it was a crazy thing to do, now that she's had time to think about it,'' Dillon said.
fried writes: Sarkozy demands banksters give back gains, if banks fail...
Ah, those wacky socialists. Here in the states, we've got it covered. Lehman showed that true failure causes random CDS and bond loss blowups all throughout the financial system, so they'll try to avoid pure "failure"... so you'll be merged, renamed, broken up, sold for $1, taken over, equity-injected, anything short of the triggering event of real "failure".
So, are we in the heart of the second half recovery now?
All these silly notions conjured up in analysts' dream factories make my head spin. The more that get manufactured the better, since it's easier to concentrate on the next collection of revolutionary NEW reasons to BUY than sit down and sort through all the failed ones that turned out poorly along with investors' account balances.
October is a month with its share of brutal performances. Capitulation could easily occur this month.
Merkel has spoken on Sunday regarding Hypo. Actually she did not have any news on Hypo, and just mumbled something about "your deposits are safe" and ran off the stage.
With the arrival of the government as an active participant in these transactions, a new dimension has to be added to the traditional matrix of fear and greed. Power, whether raw or nuanced, becomes an element in the calculus. I suspect this situation will be resolved with a nuanced exercise behind the scenes of federal power, and the feds will be guided solely by their assessment of which surviving entity will be more robust. Not more profitable, simply more robust.
I was very surprised that Citi was in the mix, in the first place, given the problems that it has, my own guess for its future was more along the lines of an AIG outcome that it's current role of predator in choppy seas.
As far as Wells is concerned, I'm surprised they'd gamble their balance sheet on Wachovia and (especially)Golden State, unless they've been, er, deferring recognition of some of their problems, and a deal with Wachovia would allow them, in the consolidation, to air and clean their own dirties by adding them to the Wachovia laundry.
Zero writes:
Iceland is headed for a world of hurt; this may be a microcosm of our future: The party's over for Iceland, the island that tried to buy the world. Quotes:
The bars and restaurants of Iceland's capital are packed, the Range Rovers and BMWs are parked nose to tail
...
The krona, Iceland's currency, is in freefall and is rated just above those of Zimbabwe and Turkmenistan.
Of course Wells Fargo is a better fit because they do not need FDIC assistance like CitiGroup. Plus they are going to pay $7 not $1 a share.
Ministry of Truth | Homepage | 10.05.08 - 10:47 am
WFC will get FDIC and TARP assistance whether the board recognizes that fact or publicizes subsequent increase in its loan loss reserves in its PR or not. Its deal is for all of WB holdings. The C deal is only the bank, so FDIC credit component is an explicit valuation of actual and forthcoming WB loan losses.
Change in share price a/o 3 Oct announcement: C 18.35 (-4.15) WB 6.21 (+2.30) WFC 34.56 (-0.60) a/o 3 Oct 2008 close
Straight up WB engineered LBO to sucker common shareholders into massive dilution. The JPM-BSC Agreement and Guaranty were "exclusive," too. But controlling shareholders jacked the market to move the strike price from $2 to $10 in two weeks, remember that? Good. You won't be surprised then, when WFC dumps WB brokerages' and SPEs' liabilities er "troubled assets" back into the market, if WB's offer prevails in court. That "better fit" strategy worked for BoA sucking up Countrywide, didn't it?
Disgusting.
Read up on Sun Trust - First Union (Wachovia FSB) M&A history to date. And pdf image of the C-WB agreement is at the wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wachovia_Bank,N.A.-_New_York#cite_note-39
"In consideration of the foregoing and other good and valuable consideration the receipt and adequacy of which are hereby acknowledged, Wachovia hereby agrees that, during the period commencing on the date hereof and ending in Exclusivity Termination Date, Wachovia shall not, and shall not permit any of its subsidiaries or any of its or their respective officers, directors, employees, investment bankers, attorneys, accountants, consultants or other agents or advisors ("Representatives") to, directly or indirectly, (i) solicit, initiate or take any action to facilitate or encourage the submission of any Acquisition Proposal, (ii) enter into or participate in any discussions or negotiations with, furnish any information relating to Wachovia or any of its subsidiaries, assets or businesses or afford access to the business, properties, assets, books or records of Wachovia or any of its subsidiaries to, otherwise cooperate in any way with, or knowingly assist, participate in, facilitate or encourage any effort by, any third party that is seeking to make, or has made, an Acquisition Proposal, (iii) grant any waiver or release under any standstill or similar agreement with respect to any class of equity securities of Wachovia or (iv) enter into any agreement in principle, letter of intent, term sheet, merger agreement, acquisition agreement, option agreement or other similar instrument relating to an Acquisition Proposal. As of the date hereof [29 Sep 2008], Wachovia will and will cuase its Representatives to, terminate any discussions or negotiations with respect to any Acquisition Proposal."
The correct outcome is severing Wachovia Bank from the WB-WFC deal, to be honest. WFC can't afford all of WB.
"Wells Fargo expects to incur merger and integration charges of about $10 billion. The company intends to issue up to $20 billion of new Wells Fargo securities, primarily common stock, to maintain its strong capital position." http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/TOP%20STORY/1920102/
::
No, I personally hold no position of employment with or securities of any the parties of the litigation. I'm just another pissed off bystander.
Ziggurat writes: I call it good news, just to be first.
What I can't get my head around is how much of the risk is being offset by the new marker the gov't has put on the table: $700B injection to the banking sector must change a lot of calculations. Would solve a key problem: "Our day-to-day operations are profitable, if only we weren't insolvent!"
Also, it fits into my view that the problem is in the nontraditional banks, investment banks, etc. non bank banks, etc.
How does this square with the collapse of WaMu, WB, DSL... just curious. Banks like BofA seem to have survived just because they were busy losing smaller amounts of money elsewhere, not from smartly avoiding the problem areas. (Even WFC has a lot of seconds that must be hurting.)
As far as Wells is concerned, I'm surprised they'd gamble their balance sheet on Wachovia and (especially)Golden State, unless they've been, er, deferring recognition of some of their problems, and a deal with Wachovia would allow them, in the consolidation, to air and clean their own dirties by adding them to the Wachovia laundry.
Except why would they care about a tax deduction if they want to write down their own assets.
I think they had been planning on being around and like paying for WB better then getting NCC for free.
RE: Hypo bank, Fortis etc. Merkel has said she will 'do all she can to save
Hypo' in the BBC's current story but that begs an interesting question.
The EMU does not allow governments there to run huge deficits a la the US government. So the German or French
governments ability to set up a TARP is somewhat limited. It is also the case that smaller EMU states, Belgium
comes to mind, may have banks beyond the resources of their national government to save. Trichet is going to have to figure out something here.
How does this square with the collapse of WaMu, WB, DSL... just curious. Banks like BofA seem to have survived just because they were busy losing smaller amounts of money elsewhere, not from smartly avoiding the problem areas. (Even WFC has a lot of seconds that must be hurting.)
DC... Obviously some banks were just flat out insolvent. More traditional banks are being dealt with by the FDIC reasonably effectively.
The other banks like BAC have profitable parts and portfolio issues and it those cases it is a race to see if they can fund the writedowns with profit from other areas and manage the difference (either add capital or sell their reduced profits as being real, so they can continue the exercise).
However, commercial paper/mm funds aren't banks and the traditional regulatory entities like FDIC can't do much.
Whether or not Wells is a better fit is not the issue here. Wachovia clearly agreed to a deal - it was publicly announced and supported by the government and Wachovia did not contradict or object. Therefore Citi has rights and, whatever the final outcome, they will get something - either Wachovia or a very fine cash settlement. Or both, if they've bought enough politicians.
Here is a nice [auto-translated] comment from Germany. I leave the version mostly automatic because it is more poignant.
"Focus and N24 in the background of my computer run. In addition to the tank car is always beautifully maintained and fully finished. Canning department at the supermarket cleared. There are candles and bought enough water. Batteries for the radio and an ax. Why the ax? If burglars come, so you have something in the house. Christmas is already dead."
"... Exploiting a presumed tax loophole, Wells Fargo makes a significantly better offer.
... that tax loophole must be significantly large in order to make up the difference between the two offers.... we arrive at a tax loophole of certainly more than 29.2 billion.
... I bet that Citigroup was well aware of that loophole and wanted to exploit it as well. In short, the FDIC had offered a real plum to Citigroup...."
The solution is a no brainer. Citi should be given the opportunity to match or better Wells' offer. If it cannot, especially as relates to no backstop from taxpayers, Citi's contract should be voided citing the "public good" and let Wells takeover Wachovia WITHOUT tax payer backstops.
Citi's press release is a little over the top on what happened yesterday.
It looks like Citi found a judge to issue a restraining order pending a hearing on Friday on whether an injunction should issue.
I don't see any court preventing WFB from completing an acquisition of WB.
All Citi has to go on is a glorified letter of intent to acquire the banking portion of WB. It can make a lot of noise before losing, but that's about it.
Meanwhile, there are no "court filings" yet. The courthouse was closed yesterday and a judge can't accept filings at his home.
I think this is an outrage wasting valuable court time.
They have more important business like settling the America's Cup dispute between Larry Ellison and Ernesto Bertarelli. Monohulls or multihulls, 09 or 10, paper or plastic.
Face it, those 2 guys are worth more than WF and WB together...
her potential financee dropped her at the last minute, deciding it is not worth to save her. At her desperate call, another good bystander made the choice to save her, and provided her food to survive.
I seem to be watching this movie today, called "Samurai Rebellion."
when the empires which would become the sumerians and Egyptians were arising to the fall of Rome in what? 453? (and then the Bzyantines for another thousand years or so.) Empires came and went, but because power and knowledge was still around, Europe stayed on the up curve. After Rome took over, it took over the whole shebang, so when it fell, there wasn't a power/knowledge reservoir to take over.
Lawyerliz, you're forgetting the Sea Peoples, who, around 1200BC, embarked on a more than 30-year-long war to destroy every city in the western world at that time. Several cities were destroyed more than once as the city burners re-encountered them. Only 2 cities ever survived: Memphis and Thebes. Every other city in the middle east and mediterranean were destroyed. And it took several hundred years of economic and military vacuum for the Greeks, Romans, Sumerians and Medeans to arise.
The Sea Peoples were a collection of tribes from as far away as (what are today called) Afghanistan and the Balic. No one really knows why they did it. The destruction they left was more consistent with the behavior of destroyers than the behaviors of conquerors.
Mycenea was founded, a few hundred years later, a few miles from one of the destroyed cities. The period that the Sea Peoples ended is called "pre mycenean" in most history books.
Girl and boy are deeply in love and interested in tying the knot. Unfortunately, girl has mild case of ebola which as we all know could prove fatal not only for her but for those who come in contact with her. The boy hopes and prays that she can turn a corner and has begun discussions with leading ebola experts to see about the contagiousness if this particular strain.
Unfortunately, the girl's evil foster parent steps in on a whim to force a quick marriage with another brash suitor known for its aire of invincibility and arrogance.
The two lovers are separated but remain smitten. The boy decides to take the plunge rescuing the girl from the shotgun altar. Likely his counselors advised that love can conquer all including the effects of a toxic wasting affliction.
Now the two suitors stand outside on the sidewalk preparing to brawl. Will it be to the death. And the plague continues to reach out and smite al around it. Perhaps the fight won't make any difference at all.
Good going, Tangurena. I've read three volumes of Black Athena several times. That is sufficient critical analyses of historiography to catalyze critical reading of socialized institutionalize knowledge to call, "check."
You know, when a Brit calls foul, one had better examine the referees' pass in replay.
ferst
I love the smell of desperation in the morning.
sea eagles smashed the storm 40 zip
Friday October 10?
Seems to me there's a fair chance it'll be mooted by the destruction of some or all of the involved parties by then.
let mad monday commence
So why didn't Wachovia/Citi proceed like WaMu/JPM? In other words, the FDIC first seized WaMu and then sold the assets to JPM. Here it seems that transaction is between WB and Citi/WFC.
warriors put up a better show before losing
and they beat the storm
Gov making it up as they go along, the Wall Street wizards(Lizards) are becoming suvivalists.
What happened to all the mutual upgrades and backslapping back in March, now they are trying to throw each other in front of a train.
I like the term 'Injunctive Relief'....the best thing about this whole crises is the new phrases.
well of course eagles are blamed for buying all the talent off the top four in an attempt to weaken them for next seaso
storm hurt by the grapple tackle biz
I don't care too much about the creative merger/destruction process especially whether it becomes a case of who has bigger lawyers. I just want it made clear that no matter what path the events take they are ALL at significant cost to the taxpayer. It's one thing to suffer but quite another to be told at the same time you are feeling fine. Multibillion multiyear tax breaks are less taxpayer friendly than FDIC which is supposedly self funding.
leave it to beaver, does he come back to get the record for all time?
terry lamb would be pissed
kill the spambot!
short ban ends Wednesday?
apambot sez we have serious sporting contests outside the world series, get used to it
This is what happened: a girl in life danger, her potential financee dropped her at the last minute, deciding it is not worth to save her. At her desperate call, another good bystander made the choice to save her, and provided her food to survive. After recovered, her old potential financee all-of-sudden found her worth more, then proposed marriage again. At the lure of greed,
the girl changed her heart again. Who should be condamed: the girl and ex-financee. At least they're not moral.
Wells dropped WB at the last minute, Citi stepped in at WB's desperate call. If no citi provided liquidity during weekend and early last week, WB should be in bankrupcy. Citi did what a good guy did, unfortunately, both WB and Wells want to profit from it.
Bystander-
Alls fair in love and war.
Each side pick a representative ultimate fighter. They meet in the octagon; decision under 3 minutes. Sell rights to the video to Wall St. for $1000 pop.
bystander--I had forgotten that wfc had dumped wach--thanks for the love story.
love the love story, and love a thread that is in my time zone, as so few are...
Not a sports blog, spambot.
CR,give my best to Tanta.
This piece of news is a disgrace to Sunday morning economics. Where is the hot stuff this sunday?
Just how much authority does the Wachovia board have. Seems to me, as bystander points out, it was a case of being taken over by Citi or taken under by the FDIC. As the FDIC arranged this merger I dont' believe Wachovia's board has any say in the matter. They are supernumaries to the transaction.
IANAL... how does a New York state judge assume jurisdiction over CA and NC banks?
Nor a love story.
I was under the impression that Citi needed government help to make the deal work and Wells would do it without help.
Am I in the ballpark?
Comrade NSA,
Followup question on your PV setup last thread...
Only 10 hours until Japan opens. Is it Paulson's turn for the gimmick du jour, or Bernanke's?
spambot sez: not a sports blog br?
experimental laws variations seem to be all the rage, in my neck of the woods this is all the sports blogs are discussing
Citi did the deal under the rules that existed at the time. WFC demurred under those same rules.
Can't ask for an 'instant replay' review when the decision has already been made.
Seems like ELV's are all the rage these days!
PeakVT writes:
Only 10 hours until Japan opens. Is it Paulson's turn for the gimmick du jour, or Bernanke's?
I'm watching the futures, that should tell us something. I just don't know what exactly, except that if they are very, very red then Gentle Ben will act, synchronize your watches, we attack on his signal.
The European open should be...interesting.
If WFC wins here, it seems to cast into doubt the idea that C is among the anointed.
That the markets are planning on opening is a good sign. Someday soon some bright wizard is going to come up with a radical stock metric. This measure of the markets' overall health divides weighted stock price by dividends. He'll call it the "earnings ratio" and then back test the results against the last 80 years of trading and come to but one conclusion.
check out how higher the leverage ratios are at European banks - see:
How the U.S. Saved Europe's Banking System -- Seeking Alpha
Bagholder ee - posted response on last thread.
The problem with dick measuring contests is that everyone knows what you've got. The trial will never proceed to discovery as all parties involved are to embarrassed at their... ummm... assets.
Big Whoop. I can see it now...
Dateline 4/12/2009:
Wells Fargo To Acquire Citi for $6 Billion
rob dawg
so more experimental law variations...
The theatre moves across the pond. Higher leverage and the Euro. Herding cats and infighting. This'll be interesting....
I think the media is letting the cat out of the bag this Sunday--the banks won't participate in the bailout if the ceos have to sacrifice anything. They're using the excuse that the mbs shit sandwiches have bottomed and are on their way up.
disagree with the author about wfc is better fit. support comment by bystander.
WB stockholders win if WFC wins, they recoup a little more of their stock price.
The taxpayers lose in either case, probably equally. Either the fed gives some guarantees upfront or Paulson buys crap through the TARP.
Since all reasonable investors (not simply the astute investors) knew that WB was crap and being long on WB was a risky long shot bet, I say burn them, and let C keep WB. At least somebody feels some pain this way.
Comrade NSA,
Thanks x 10^6
Looking forward to your contribution to the world's greatest library with all the books piled on the floor (my favorite internet metaphor).
Practical examples of PV setups alongside high density agriculture (urban gardens) and small scale animal husbandry (think chickens and rabbits) rolled into one web site would make a heckuva draw...
gram had it wrong, its wall street that whines,demands help but only on their terms. and is this thing a turf war?king of the hill play? nasty spoiled brats. paulson is leaving 1/19/09 he dont have much time left and is running out of band-aids if he can just hold on then it will be somebody else problem and he can go back on gs. whatever oh well thats the way the cookie crumbles,the ball bounces.
Things are getting more chaotic every day... Was just reading about the Bank Holiday in 1933, on Emergency Banking Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia , as it would seem to me a good idea to close all markets and banks for a week or so, in order to get an idea of how bad it is. I liked what I read:
"Despite the importance of the bill, it was passed in immense haste by Congress. Few, if any, Congressmen had the chance to read the bill; most were only able to hear the clerk read it. Quite a few Congressmen vocally protested the haste in which the bill was considered, but nevertheless it was passed sight unseen."
As I write this, the German government is busying itself with HRE, and the Belgian government is trying to find out how to stop Fortis from imploding.
As a rule I don't drink alcohol before 17.00. Less than 20 minutes to go!
Of course Wells Fargo is a better fit because they do not need FDIC assistance like CitiGroup. Plus they are going to pay $7 not $1 a share.
On the Clock writes:
IANAL... how does a New York state judge assume jurisdiction over CA and NC banks?
On the Clock | 10.05.08 - 10:11 am | #
This clause in the exclusivity agreement makes Manhattan the sole domain of any lawsuit related to the agreement. What will most likely happen is that a New York judge will have to apply the laws of another state. Right now there seems to be a question as to whether the board of directors for Wachovia was still under fiduciary duty to consider other offers while under the exclusivity agreement.
"This agreement shall by governed by and construed in accordance with, the laws of the State of New York. The parties hereby irrevocably and unconditionally submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of any state or federal court sitting in the New York City, Borough of Manhattan, over any suit, action or proceeding arising out of or relating to this letter of agreement. The parties hereby irrevocably and unconditionally waive any objection of the laying of venue of any suit action or proceeding brought in any such court and any claim that any such suit, action or proceeding brought in any such court has been brought in an inconvenient forum. The parties hereby agree that a final judgment in any such suit, action or proceeding brought in any such court shall by conclusive and binding upon you and my be enforced in any other courts to whose jurisdiction the parties are or may be subject by suit upon such judgment"
Anonymous | 10.05.08 - 10:34 am
that was me.
This adds a little suspense , but I think Wells Fargo is the better fit. - CR
Lots of bad fit merger/acquisitions go through - does Citi have a case - are there any real legal remedies for Citi wrt to stopping WF/Wac merger? Does the Fed/FDIC still have an 'interest' in either outcome? Are they the final deal makers deal breakers?
Those are the issues most likely to decide the outcome - not which merger is more logical - yes/no?
dryfly,
exactly. This is all about who's got the legal edge at this point.
Also, I think Sheila has no choice but to affirm that FIDC stands behind their deal w/ shitigroup.
This is a fight to see which banks will survive and be added into Paulson's Club.
I think Wells is desperate and decided to ensure their survival. Citi is not going to give up easily.
Prediction is Citi to prevail.
This has happened before..
TEXACO REPORTED TO REACH ACCORD ON PENNZOIL SUIT - The New York Times
I suppose we would expect to see Wareen Buffet back on CNBC on Monday early AM.
Lets keep in mind here, CITI is too big to fail(or any hint thereof) from FDIC's point of view.
The Fed is breaking or at least making up the law as they go. In my view if WF can purchase with out tax payer support the exclusivity agreement should be torn apart. Sorry C but your dealing with a government you can not trust.
godhatesfangs writes:
I think the media is letting the cat out of the bag this Sunday--the banks won't participate in the bailout if the ceos have to sacrifice anything. They're using the excuse that the mbs shit sandwiches have bottomed and are on their way up.
godhatesfangs | 10.05.08 - 10:32 am | #
It is my understanding that they did not limit compensation. Instead they threw a 20% tax on anything over a set amount (can't remember the amount).
anyone have the details?
More evidence of membership scramble for Paulson's Club.
JPMorgan blamed for Lehman collapse in court documents: report
Error page - Yahoo! News
LONDON (AFP) - US bank JPMorgan Chase stands accused of precipitating the collapse of American investment bank Lehman Brothers by freezing Lehman assets days before it filed for bankruptcy protection, the Sunday Times reported.
Injuctive relief is not a new phrase, it is a legal term going back, I dunno, at lease 150 years, and probably more like 350 years.
Inter alia, (among other things) it is to prevent something from happening which cannot be undone. Like, you can't scramble an egg. and then unscramble it.
I love the smell of Napalm in the morning...it smells like...VICTORY!
Apocalypse Now!
Time to terminate Paulsen's command...
I'm not the first one to say this, but anyone else think this is just part of the planned rope-a-dope delay to get us past the election? Occupy our time with an essentially meaningless fight over a Dead Bank.
Re: Warren Buffett on CNBC. Anyone else notice that Warren 'Superman' Buffett is always around for Becky "Lois Lane" Quick but not for anyother CNBC reporter/ette.
How about getting King Solomon (GS?)
to split the baby?
Re: NY exclusivity clause -- thanks, AC
It is my understanding that they did not limit compensation. Instead they threw a 20% tax on anything over a set amount (can't remember the amount).
anyone have the details?
are you kidding me | 10.05.08 - 11:15 am | #
My poorly informed understanding was that the bailout required any NEW CEO compensation agreements to have limits (new as in agreed to after they start unloading their toxics on Hank)... all prior compensation agreements, contracts & parachutes are left untouched.
Jamie writes:
I like the term 'Injunctive Relief'....the best thing about this whole crises is the new phrases.
Ditto what Liz said. It's a "new phrase" only because it is jargon that you've never heard before. Sort of the same way "housing price declines" is a 'new phrase.'
The FDIC is in an odd place here. Surely they would like Wells to buy Wachovia because it gets FDIC off the hook for any obligations in a Citi deal, but if they pull their backing for the Citi deal, it might spark a panic and the whole bank might go under. Cthulhu wants these halfwits to stop screwing around with his bank and just close a deal already.
Sarkozy demands banksters give back gains, if banks fail...from the Wash Post. Hey Hanky, you could learn from the French.
a Sarkozy rallying cry, a politically popular stand insisting that high-flying bankers must pay if their institutions go under.
For instance, a top executive at Dexia, a collapsing bank rescued by the French and Belgian governments last week, was forced not only to resign but also to renounce his severance package on insistence from the French government, which since the rescue holds a 25 percent stake in the bank's capital.
(Wash Post, this am.)
Apparatchik ZackAttack:
Someone mentioned Buffett above. Did you know he's still a big shareholder in Wells Fargo? I wonder if he gave his approval to Wells to buy Wachovia.
fried:
Give back gains? That's soooo Un-capitalistic.
Did you know he's still a big shareholder in Wells Fargo?
Yes, he is. For the conspiracy minded, perhaps Buffet got the nod to take Wachovia from Citi. Extra conspriacy points if you think the next move is for GS to buy Wells/Wachovia, now that Buffet is part of both.
Does Wachovia going into ownership "stasis" for at least 5 days precipitate a run on its deposits?
How about the fact that someone actually WANTS WB because they think they will make money, based on tax deductions on their own PROFITS????? A bank making profits!
There seems to be NOTHING that can happen that won't get people more angry. What about if Citi had said "no thanks" and everyone just walked away? The theme would have been that they were liars, opportunists, backing out on a memorandum of understanding as if it were a definitive agreement. etc.
The main news as far as I'm concerned is the idea that someone that actually pays taxes, despite the general belief around here that they are insolvent, wants to buy WB and make money.
I call it good news, just to be first.
Also, it fits into my view that the problem is in the nontraditional banks, investment banks, etc. non bank banks, etc.
AP: Germany to follow Ireland & Greece and guarantee all deposits.
Iceland is headed for a world of hurt; this may be a microcosm of our future: The party's over for Iceland, the island that tried to buy the world. Quotes:
The bars and restaurants of Iceland's capital are packed, the Range Rovers and BMWs are parked nose to tail
...
The krona, Iceland's currency, is in freefall and is rated just above those of Zimbabwe and Turkmenistan.
I think the poster who said that all 3 might be destroyed has a point. Many years ago there was an S&L in Miami which became the subject of a proxy fight. It was destroyed. The S&L I represented was a mutual, which I discovered was meaningless. Every time I closed a loan, I was to give a card to the borrower to give their proxy to the then existing board. Borrowers nearly always signed and so did new account holders. Apparently the proxies lasted until revoked. Which happened when it went out of business 20+ years ago.
Comment to comment in last thread. Just profit sharing is an excellent idea and benefits everybody. After I graduated law school, I joined Chicago Title which had just terminated profit sharing. Employees went from worrying about making sure they kept track of pencils to save money to not giving a $hit. Some bean counter counted some beans and decided that the company could make more money that way without taking human behavior into account one smidge.
I think that some of these problems arise when something gets too big, whether it's corporations or the government, or religion, or anything else. When things get too big the top is too insulated from the bottom.
Frankly, I dodn't know what to do abouot this.
Successful entities grow bigger because they are successful, and as long as they are successful, nobody wants to break them up.
So I think that Ruin's prognotication that there will be a lot of smaller blocks, tho short term messy and dangerous, means that the whole thing doesn't go bang at once.
After all, western europe muddled along just fine for about 4 millenia--starting at about 3500 bc, when the empires which would become the sumerians and Egyptians were arising to the fall of Rome in what? 453? (and then the Bzyantines for another thousand years or so.) Empires came and went, but because power and knowledge was still around, Europe stayed on the up curve. After Rome took over, it took over the whole shebang, so when it fell, there wasn't a power/knowledge reservoir to take over.
Financial Fight Club is a great thing to watch, no?
Another disturbing foreclosure story:
October 5, 2008
Mortgage Forgiven for Woman, 90, Who Shot Herself
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Filed at 11:31 a.m. ET
AKRON, Ohio (AP) -- Mortgage finance company Fannie Mae said it is forgiving the mortgage debt of a 90-year-old woman who shot herself in the chest as sheriff's deputies attempted to evict her.
Addie Polk's plight was cited by Rep. Dennis Kucinich, D-Ohio, on Friday before the House voted to approve the $700 billion financial rescue package. Kucinich voted against the plan.
Fannie Mae announced later Friday that it would dismiss its foreclosure action, forgive Polk's mortgage and allow her to return to the Akron home where she's lived since 1970.
''Just given the circumstances, we think it's appropriate,'' Fannie Mae spokesman Brian Faith said, citing Kucinich's statement and news reports. ''It certainly made our radar screen.''
Polk remained in Akron General Medical Center and was expected to recover from chest wounds suffered last week.
She became the home's sole owner in 1995 when her husband died, then took out a mortgage loan in 1997 and refinanced several times, court and property records show.
Countrywide Home Loans filed for foreclosure last year, and Polk's home was sold to Fannie Mae at a sheriff's auction in June. Deputies were to escort Polk from her home Wednesday when gunshots were heard inside.
Polk's longtime neighbor, Robert Dillon, climbed through her window and found her lying in bed bleeding with a gun next to her. He visited Polk in the hospital on Friday.
''She said it was a crazy thing to do, now that she's had time to think about it,'' Dillon said.
Information from: Akron Beacon Journal, Ohio.com - www.ohio.com
fried writes: Sarkozy demands banksters give back gains, if banks fail...
Ah, those wacky socialists. Here in the states, we've got it covered. Lehman showed that true failure causes random CDS and bond loss blowups all throughout the financial system, so they'll try to avoid pure "failure"... so you'll be merged, renamed, broken up, sold for $1, taken over, equity-injected, anything short of the triggering event of real "failure".
Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung:
Unnamed sources indicate Hypo needs as much as 100 Billion euros by end of 2009. This is what sunk the rescue effort.
This week could be a turning point; some of the whales are now too big for bandaids.
Let's say Citi has legal standing to close. And, they proceed. What does a current Wachovia shareholder do?
Do bank shareholder's start an uprising against Sheila Bair's FDIC? To wit: "If you'd kept out of this we would've gotten 7x as much for our company?"
Hmmmmm. The phrase, "too clever by half" comes to mind. Could be a nothingburger, could be the final straw.
100b euros for one bank?
Wow.
Maybe not wow. Do any of our banks individually need that much?
So, are we in the heart of the second half recovery now?
All these silly notions conjured up in analysts' dream factories make my head spin. The more that get manufactured the better, since it's easier to concentrate on the next collection of revolutionary NEW reasons to BUY than sit down and sort through all the failed ones that turned out poorly along with investors' account balances.
October is a month with its share of brutal performances. Capitulation could easily occur this month.
Merkel has spoken on Sunday regarding Hypo. Actually she did not have any news on Hypo, and just mumbled something about "your deposits are safe" and ran off the stage.
Merkel statement implies guarantee on bank deposits (Extra) - Monsters and Critics
This story is worth following.
Lehman CEO Fuld to testify at House hearing
"Our hearings will examine what went wrong and who should be held to account." [Waxman (D., Calif.)]
Lehman CEO Fuld to testify Monday at House hearing - MarketWatch
Can Wachovia do a posion pill without being smacked around by Shiela?
With the arrival of the government as an active participant in these transactions, a new dimension has to be added to the traditional matrix of fear and greed. Power, whether raw or nuanced, becomes an element in the calculus. I suspect this situation will be resolved with a nuanced exercise behind the scenes of federal power, and the feds will be guided solely by their assessment of which surviving entity will be more robust. Not more profitable, simply more robust.
I was very surprised that Citi was in the mix, in the first place, given the problems that it has, my own guess for its future was more along the lines of an AIG outcome that it's current role of predator in choppy seas.
As far as Wells is concerned, I'm surprised they'd gamble their balance sheet on Wachovia and (especially)Golden State, unless they've been, er, deferring recognition of some of their problems, and a deal with Wachovia would allow them, in the consolidation, to air and clean their own dirties by adding them to the Wachovia laundry.
Gosh darnit! Let's buy some banks! You betcha!
Zero writes:
Iceland is headed for a world of hurt; this may be a microcosm of our future: The party's over for Iceland, the island that tried to buy the world. Quotes:
The bars and restaurants of Iceland's capital are packed, the Range Rovers and BMWs are parked nose to tail
...
The krona, Iceland's currency, is in freefall and is rated just above those of Zimbabwe and Turkmenistan.
Had no idea. Thanks for the article.
Of course Wells Fargo is a better fit because they do not need FDIC assistance like CitiGroup. Plus they are going to pay $7 not $1 a share.
Ministry of Truth | Homepage | 10.05.08 - 10:47 am
WFC will get FDIC and TARP assistance whether the board recognizes that fact or publicizes subsequent increase in its loan loss reserves in its PR or not. Its deal is for all of WB holdings. The C deal is only the bank, so FDIC credit component is an explicit valuation of actual and forthcoming WB loan losses.
Change in share price a/o 3 Oct announcement: C 18.35 (-4.15) WB 6.21 (+2.30) WFC 34.56 (-0.60) a/o 3 Oct 2008 close
Straight up WB engineered LBO to sucker common shareholders into massive dilution. The JPM-BSC Agreement and Guaranty were "exclusive," too. But controlling shareholders jacked the market to move the strike price from $2 to $10 in two weeks, remember that? Good. You won't be surprised then, when WFC dumps WB brokerages' and SPEs' liabilities er "troubled assets" back into the market, if WB's offer prevails in court. That "better fit" strategy worked for BoA sucking up Countrywide, didn't it?
Disgusting.
Read up on Sun Trust - First Union (Wachovia FSB) M&A history to date. And pdf image of the C-WB agreement is at the wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wachovia_Bank,N.A.-_New_York#cite_note-39
"In consideration of the foregoing and other good and valuable consideration the receipt and adequacy of which are hereby acknowledged, Wachovia hereby agrees that, during the period commencing on the date hereof and ending in Exclusivity Termination Date, Wachovia shall not, and shall not permit any of its subsidiaries or any of its or their respective officers, directors, employees, investment bankers, attorneys, accountants, consultants or other agents or advisors ("Representatives") to, directly or indirectly, (i) solicit, initiate or take any action to facilitate or encourage the submission of any Acquisition Proposal, (ii) enter into or participate in any discussions or negotiations with, furnish any information relating to Wachovia or any of its subsidiaries, assets or businesses or afford access to the business, properties, assets, books or records of Wachovia or any of its subsidiaries to, otherwise cooperate in any way with, or knowingly assist, participate in, facilitate or encourage any effort by, any third party that is seeking to make, or has made, an Acquisition Proposal, (iii) grant any waiver or release under any standstill or similar agreement with respect to any class of equity securities of Wachovia or (iv) enter into any agreement in principle, letter of intent, term sheet, merger agreement, acquisition agreement, option agreement or other similar instrument relating to an Acquisition Proposal. As of the date hereof [29 Sep 2008], Wachovia will and will cuase its Representatives to, terminate any discussions or negotiations with respect to any Acquisition Proposal."
The correct outcome is severing Wachovia Bank from the WB-WFC deal, to be honest. WFC can't afford all of WB.
"Wells Fargo expects to incur merger and integration charges of about $10 billion. The company intends to issue up to $20 billion of new Wells Fargo securities, primarily common stock, to maintain its strong capital position."
http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/TOP%20STORY/1920102/
::
No, I personally hold no position of employment with or securities of any the parties of the litigation. I'm just another pissed off bystander.
Ziggurat writes: I call it good news, just to be first.
What I can't get my head around is how much of the risk is being offset by the new marker the gov't has put on the table: $700B injection to the banking sector must change a lot of calculations. Would solve a key problem: "Our day-to-day operations are profitable, if only we weren't insolvent!"
Also, it fits into my view that the problem is in the nontraditional banks, investment banks, etc. non bank banks, etc.
How does this square with the collapse of WaMu, WB, DSL... just curious. Banks like BofA seem to have survived just because they were busy losing smaller amounts of money elsewhere, not from smartly avoiding the problem areas. (Even WFC has a lot of seconds that must be hurting.)
ew thread - how does one say that in German?
As far as Wells is concerned, I'm surprised they'd gamble their balance sheet on Wachovia and (especially)Golden State, unless they've been, er, deferring recognition of some of their problems, and a deal with Wachovia would allow them, in the consolidation, to air and clean their own dirties by adding them to the Wachovia laundry.
Except why would they care about a tax deduction if they want to write down their own assets.
I think they had been planning on being around and like paying for WB better then getting NCC for free.
RE: Hypo bank, Fortis etc. Merkel has said she will 'do all she can to save
Hypo' in the BBC's current story but that begs an interesting question.
The EMU does not allow governments there to run huge deficits a la the US government. So the German or French
governments ability to set up a TARP is somewhat limited. It is also the case that smaller EMU states, Belgium
comes to mind, may have banks beyond the resources of their national government to save. Trichet is going to have to figure out something here.
How does this square with the collapse of WaMu, WB, DSL... just curious. Banks like BofA seem to have survived just because they were busy losing smaller amounts of money elsewhere, not from smartly avoiding the problem areas. (Even WFC has a lot of seconds that must be hurting.)
DC... Obviously some banks were just flat out insolvent. More traditional banks are being dealt with by the FDIC reasonably effectively.
The other banks like BAC have profitable parts and portfolio issues and it those cases it is a race to see if they can fund the writedowns with profit from other areas and manage the difference (either add capital or sell their reduced profits as being real, so they can continue the exercise).
However, commercial paper/mm funds aren't banks and the traditional regulatory entities like FDIC can't do much.
As usual....I just don't keep up with this stuff....
Last.
Whether or not Wells is a better fit is not the issue here. Wachovia clearly agreed to a deal - it was publicly announced and supported by the government and Wachovia did not contradict or object. Therefore Citi has rights and, whatever the final outcome, they will get something - either Wachovia or a very fine cash settlement. Or both, if they've bought enough politicians.
Here is a nice [auto-translated] comment from Germany. I leave the version mostly automatic because it is more poignant.
"Focus and N24 in the background of my computer run. In addition to the tank car is always beautifully maintained and fully finished. Canning department at the supermarket cleared. There are candles and bought enough water. Batteries for the radio and an ax. Why the ax? If burglars come, so you have something in the house. Christmas is already dead."
No panic here!
Other german comments:
"I will tomorrow my money in the bank pick up!"
"On Monday I go to my bank, lift my money and put it in my safe! Trust no politician!"
"Who wants to save his money, it gets into gutters quantities of the bank and tomorrow. "
Schadenfreude.
"... Exploiting a presumed tax loophole, Wells Fargo makes a significantly better offer.
... that tax loophole must be significantly large in order to make up the difference between the two offers.... we arrive at a tax loophole of certainly more than 29.2 billion.
... I bet that Citigroup was well aware of that loophole and wanted to exploit it as well. In short, the FDIC had offered a real plum to Citigroup...."
Wachovia-Citigroup-Wells Fargo--Patriotism | Angry Bear
"Want GRAVY with bank deal!!"
-- lolbanker
The Wells deal is also better for the taxpayer isn't it?
The solution is a no brainer. Citi should be given the opportunity to match or better Wells' offer. If it cannot, especially as relates to no backstop from taxpayers, Citi's contract should be voided citing the "public good" and let Wells takeover Wachovia WITHOUT tax payer backstops.
Citi's press release is a little over the top on what happened yesterday.
It looks like Citi found a judge to issue a restraining order pending a hearing on Friday on whether an injunction should issue.
I don't see any court preventing WFB from completing an acquisition of WB.
All Citi has to go on is a glorified letter of intent to acquire the banking portion of WB. It can make a lot of noise before losing, but that's about it.
Meanwhile, there are no "court filings" yet. The courthouse was closed yesterday and a judge can't accept filings at his home.
FDIC should stay out of this.
I think this is an outrage wasting valuable court time.
They have more important business like settling the America's Cup dispute between Larry Ellison and Ernesto Bertarelli. Monohulls or multihulls, 09 or 10, paper or plastic.
Face it, those 2 guys are worth more than WF and WB together...
I seem to be watching this movie today, called "Samurai Rebellion."
Lawyerliz, you're forgetting the Sea Peoples, who, around 1200BC, embarked on a more than 30-year-long war to destroy every city in the western world at that time. Several cities were destroyed more than once as the city burners re-encountered them. Only 2 cities ever survived: Memphis and Thebes. Every other city in the middle east and mediterranean were destroyed. And it took several hundred years of economic and military vacuum for the Greeks, Romans, Sumerians and Medeans to arise.
The Sea Peoples were a collection of tribes from as far away as (what are today called) Afghanistan and the Balic. No one really knows why they did it. The destruction they left was more consistent with the behavior of destroyers than the behaviors of conquerors.
Here is a book review I did about one book on the subject:
http://www.graffe.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57295
Mycenea was founded, a few hundred years later, a few miles from one of the destroyed cities. The period that the Sea Peoples ended is called "pre mycenean" in most history books.
financial fight club... love it, I've got the shots in the can, you guys/gals in all your cleverness come up with the 8 rules of Fight Club...,
amaze me with your drollness!
Love Story 2
Girl and boy are deeply in love and interested in tying the knot. Unfortunately, girl has mild case of ebola which as we all know could prove fatal not only for her but for those who come in contact with her. The boy hopes and prays that she can turn a corner and has begun discussions with leading ebola experts to see about the contagiousness if this particular strain.
Unfortunately, the girl's evil foster parent steps in on a whim to force a quick marriage with another brash suitor known for its aire of invincibility and arrogance.
The two lovers are separated but remain smitten. The boy decides to take the plunge rescuing the girl from the shotgun altar. Likely his counselors advised that love can conquer all including the effects of a toxic wasting affliction.
Now the two suitors stand outside on the sidewalk preparing to brawl. Will it be to the death. And the plague continues to reach out and smite al around it. Perhaps the fight won't make any difference at all.
Good going, Tangurena. I've read three volumes of Black Athena several times. That is sufficient critical analyses of historiography to catalyze critical reading of socialized institutionalize knowledge to call, "check."
You know, when a Brit calls foul, one had better examine the referees' pass in replay.
Order has been vacated by U.S. District Judge John Koeltl. Citi can respond at a hearing on Tues.
Now let's see what Citi is really willing to offer for Wachovia.
Regional banks prices should see a huge boost as the dogs start fighting over the bones.