"But money is fungible, so how do we tell which funds are being used for which purpose?"
Examine their books - if they're lending adequately, loosen the noose and let them walk off the gallows. If they can't prove that they're lending adequately, drop the trap.
We did install a 1,000 trap gallows in Wall Street, didn't we?
Let's see how to make them accountable...I know, how about honor system? uhmmm, what is that saying written in that parchment thingy about a well self-regulated multi-national corporation? you know...right?
"I am deeply disappointed that a number of financial institutions are distorting the legislation that Congress passed at the president's request to respond to the credit crisis by making funds available for increased lending," Rep. Barney Frank said in a statement.
Gee Barney, wonder who you've got to blame.
Probably whatever loser running the House Financial Services Committee let that piece of shit get ramrodded through Congress without adequate capital controls or mandated changes in leadership at the banks.
Wonder who that would be.
Oh wait, it's YOU Barney, it's YOU that's to blame.
Anyone who voted for the bailout allowed themselves to be corralled by party leaders into voting for a piece of legislation that what incredibly poorly written.
And now, Rep Frank, expresses shock that banks are doing what he wants.
Another step toward nationalization of the banks. If that was my goal, this would be a step I would take toward making it politically palatable.
Step 1: Bail the banks out, but with over-the-top theatrics about how this will solve all the problems
Step 2: Show that they are not using the funds the way that was "intended"
Step 3: Make a few futile gestures asking them to be "responsible" with the money (holding in your laughter as best you can)
Step 4: Present the only logical solution to the conundrum of "But money is fungible, so how do we tell which funds are being used for which purpose?"... answer, by being the direct distributor of funds.
I'd suggest catuion. Senator Frank may not be as naive as he seems.
Erste vielleicht, aber nicht erste Klasse - I have a ticket to ride.
Frank still seems, frankly, unaware of what those tax payer sponsored funds are for - to make sure that Wall Street can keep functioning in its accustomed style, without any fear of any bankruptcy beyond the moral. The sort of bankruptcy which troubles nary an investment banker, much less a mortgage broker.
And since so many people seem convinced of inflation - another perspective of what has happened to those funds is that they have disappeared (after a cut for those handling said funds, of course) into the black hole that is the chasm of money destruction.
Truly, we have not seen money destroyed since the Great Depression - when entire empires of money simply disappeared, as did many banks.
People keep thinking the Fed, or somebody, can do something to stop this. Frank, a man who in one sense has had a front row seat to the money being shovelled into the furnace, still doesn't understand something that has never happened in his life - what seems to be happening now can only be found in history books, leaving aside the special case of Japan, which in less than two decades managed to go from a positive number to a mirror negative one after watching a property and stock bubble implode, while banks were kept propped up long beyond any rational reason, simply to keep the system appearing stable.
However, Japan is not the USA - they actually had savings to convert to debt, and they actually manufactured products that the world wanted to buy.
What is Barney going to do about it? Take away the money? Baby Bop is much smarter.
I just tried checking fares to Iceland. IcelandAir website is not working correctly. A surprising amount of Icelandic links are not working either. I wonder how many of servers are out of the country and turned off?
Of course, just giving money to people through wages and dividends is arguably more effective than lending money to bankrupt taxpayers and expecting them to pay it back with interest.
--
Born-and-bred American dopes are told all their lives: "Rule of Laws and Not of Men." What a bunch of dopes -- IT IS ALWAYS the Rule of Men and any system is ONLY AS GOOD AS Men making the Laws and Men Enforcing the Laws.
Financial Nazis of America are evil rulers. Period. Democracy = Domination of Money has already transpired. The last phase of democracy ALWAYS IS Rule of Mobs, And it is coming to a democracy near you, beginning with Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, America Larger a democracy worse would the outcome be.
Someone smarter than me can correct this: As a C corproration, the money would have to be accounted for as received and posted to a certain account. The account of receipt would be the tracking for use of the monies. If they placed them into some sort of general ledger, then they could be tracked from there. The geniuses at the IRS should be called in to do smoe snooping. (can't believe I just said that)
Gee Barney, maybe you should have read the bill before you passed it! You signed off on a bill which is basically 100 pages of loopholes; you should have known they'd be able to do anything.
ova writes:
What is Barney going to do about it? Take away the money? Baby Bop is much smarter.
I just tried checking fares to Iceland. IcelandAir website is not working correctly. A surprising amount of Icelandic links are not working either. I wonder how many of servers are out of the country and turned off?
Nova,
Random response, but I think there was a lot of talk about using Iceland as an international enterprise datacenter provider, because of the low electrical costs (geo-thermal and already low environmental temps for cooling), and because the population is decently educated to manage them...doesn't bode well if websites are down.
You buy non voting shares, you get nothing to complain about. Why Paulson/Bush went this route says more about them than it says about banks or Congress--they deliberately birthed a handicapped investor.
He (and we?) thinks credit creates wealth. He doesn't get it that credit is a symptom of a balance system under the rule of law. As long as asset prices are inflated and debt levels are too high relative to output, lending will be constricted.
The gov just did currency swaps with Mexico, Korea, Brazil, Singapore with no strings. How is this different? How much do you think is going into foreign politicians personal bank accounts? Do you think the US will ever see any of this $ repaid. The US currency is being destroyed at an amazing pace by these idiots.
Accrued or not - the politics of paying out the 2008 bonus pool early next year is going to be quite ugly.
I personally think that the companies on the dole should be forced to issue stock options with a zero based strike to their employees for the same value of their cash bonus pool (maybe with the share price used for the calculation based off of a 30 day average).
Then, the tax implications for the bonus recipients and issuers is a wash, they (the employees) are made whole on their bonuses, the banks preserve their partially tax-payer funded capital, and leave it to equity holders and new option holders to sort out the price.
And if congress wants to put in some kind of teeth regarding a performance claw-back, they could instead just modify the vesting schedule of said options (and possibly tweak the tax status of the ISO/NSO for these particular options).
This would effectively preserve the accrued value of the bonus pool compensation to each employee, and preserve corporate cash by essentially doing an equity offering to their own employees.
That didn't take long. A few weeks ago he was waving the flag for this bill - its champion. Now we're slipping into "that Congress passed at the president's request"... uh it was his idea, I just voted for it.
I'm guessing him or his staff didn't bother listening to the SIFMAlys call...which explained how everything Congress was claiming in the bill have numerous loopholes..
Yes, I did not see it as a good sign either. Methinks there is more going on then we are seeing in the US media.
nova | 10.31.08 - 11:07 am | #
I keep envisioning Tall Blond Nordic People sharpening sticks and chasing eachother through the streets demanding to know the contents of eachothers wallets...weird.
OT - For those watching the USD/YEN this a.m., I've noticed several gaps below that will need to be filled, and if done during market hours should lead to quite a pull back in equities.
You guys should see the shameless ads Barney Frank is running in MA. Totally ignoring the fact that he has been the head of the Finance committee for the past two years and did nothing in that time, and voted for the bailout, he is acting like he is the populist hero standing up to financial interests. Sickening.
A Tax Strike is an AWESOME idea, but everyone would have to do it. I wonder how far the Feds would go to get their money?
The big joke of the bailout is that the money was already spent before they got it. All 5 investment banks were virtually insolvent by any standard, and 10 billion here and there is enough to keep them going for another 3 months. They are leveraged 30 to 1, probably over 40 to 1 with the stock prices so beaten down. Banks aren't lending because they're in survival mode. Banks know exactly how much money they have to the fraction of a cent. They see exactly how much money comes in every week through direct deposits. They know exactly how much money is delinquent every month on loans. If they aren't lending, it means that it's very bad.
I was trying to find some Icelandic blogs to check out (both to see if they're up and to see what they have to say), and I ran across this gem of a report:
If they didn't want the money used for general operating purposes then they should have required companies to suspend dividends and cap salaries. What did they expect?
Has anyone at any of these investment banks still standing taken a pay cut? I read somewhere that the still plan on paying out billions in Christmas bonuses. What's up with that?
Um... I'm sorry, but are all of you saying that Barney Frank should be saying nothing about the Bank's misuse of the money?
Should he disappear into the woodwork as Paulson has done?
If Frank speaks about bonuses and the such publicly, there is more of a chance that the banks will be shamed into using LESS of the the bailout money for executive bonuses and the like.
If a bank was given 5 bils bailout, and the loans they gave out since receiving that bailout is just a small percentage of that bailout, isn't it obvious that they're hoarding cash, or use the bailout loan for other purposes?
--
"You give the devil a ride, he'll want to drive. What a stupid plan. What a stupid and naive congress and senate."
Interesting Times,
I couldn't have better except that it is sugar-coated a bit when you use the term "naive." Were German Nazis naive when it came to treatment of Jews? It was a deliberate act and so is everything happening in America. Every financial act in America is a premeditated act, including reckless mortgage lending and everything that has gone on. It is only a chance happening to born-and-bred dopes. Every act of evildoers Greenspan, Rubin, Breanne and Paulson was/is a premeditated act.
Americans would have to come to terms with their evil rulers.
Frank must be out to lunch, the equity stakes the government in these institutions comes with no guarantee that the investments will spur lending and unfreeze credit markets.
The government does not have board seats or any other leverage to demand that that the firms actually use the money to help the economy. The truth of the matter is, they can't put a gun to anyones head and say you have to lend the money.
This is what people like CR readers were screaming about when the bill passed!
No sht. I included that in my letter to my congresscritter and honestly, I don't know what the fck I'm talking about. How can so many people trusted with leadership be so freakin' clueless? The level of lobbiest involvement in our government has reached dangerously toxic levels, clearly.
Barney Franks is an imbecile. I don't know he keeps getting re-elected.
Perhaps.
But I have emailed and called my congressfolk (all 3) EVERY OTHER DAY for the last 2 weeks about the fact that $70b of the $750b will go to bonuses.
The message may be getting through.
Barney Frank is a politician. he's no idiot. he's saying what he needs to say to help mollify idiots like me who are incensed that Wall Streeters are going to get near-record bonuses this year.
The old addage "we gotta pay them or they'll go somewhere else" doesn't work. where are these Wall St titans going to go? To a Hedge Fund? HAHAHHAHHAHAHA
to another big bank? HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH
To a pension fund?
HAHAHAHHAHAHAH
the entire financial industry is one big crap-pile. there is no reason for them to all give big bonuses. there will be so many financial job losses that their salaries need to FALL this year, not rise.
and the politicians are starting to get it.
On a side note: with enough pressure we may see a huge turnaround on the "banks willing to lend" side.
I told my rep's secretary that we might as well just nationalize the banks. they seemed more receptive to that than they did 2 weeks ago.
Imagine the bank's dilemna:
lend and go BK or get nationalized.
Things are going to happen. Not good things... but things.
Kilgore Trout: "This is BushCo's end-of-term raiding of the U.S. Treasury."
You just keep telling yourself that. Everything bad that has happened in the last 8 years came from one man and a small band of friends. More than 400 honest congressmen and 100 upright senators were fooled repeatedly by an arch-genius vice president behind the man who can not pronounce the word "nuclear".
...some pitchers you could always tell when they'd try and throw you a curveball....Barney's an idiot as are most inside the Beltway......Wait till the new set of retards get inducted - that'll be a REAL show.
jmay,
The point is that a lot of bailout critics made this point to the deaf-ears in Congress when the bailout was being worked through Congress.
Frank never stipulated that the money be used for lending. In fact he was so proud of how much he improved the original Paulsen Plan with regulations and oversight.
So him coming out and trying to shame the banks is pretty lame...
Bloomberg: Almost three weeks after the government threw its guarantee behind new bank bonds, no U.S. finance company has braved the market.
Banks have until Nov. 12 to decide if they don't want to participate in the program
Banks dominated corporate bond sales last year, accounting for 71 percent of $1.02 trillion of investment-grade new issuance, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. As the credit seizure deepened and yields over benchmark rates soared to records, banks were forced out of the market.
"No major U.S. bank has sold debt since Sept. 3."
I thought the goobermint was buying up all the banks and other entities stinking alphabet soup of debt instruments.
Let's do a nationwide mortgage strike and put ther banks out of business. They are crooks, and the bailout money is being used to buy their crappy commercial paper - it has little or nothing to do with "subprime" mortgages.
Somehow the genius majority of voters in MA keep electing Frank to Congress. Maybe it's the witches...few years ago I visited Salem, MA and saw the memorial to the people that were burnt as witches. Guess what was across the street...a store promoting witchcraft. America is great.
They are leveraged 30 to 1, probably over 40 to 1 with the stock prices so beaten down. Banks aren't lending because they're in survival mode. Banks know exactly how much money they have to the fraction of a cent. They see exactly how much money comes in every week through direct deposits. They know exactly how much money is delinquent every month on loans. If they aren't lending, it means that it's very bad.
DK | 10.31.08 - 11:13 am | #
Force a bunch of new loans out the door that are almost guaranteed to go sour because of pressure to lend and then step in to bail out the loans made using taxpayer money later.
"If Frank speaks about bonuses and the such publicly, there is more of a chance that the banks will be shamed into using LESS of the the bailout money for executive bonuses and the like."
The timing of this may work out well. I hope the banks spend the entire $700 billion on bonuses before January. Then in February public outrage finally reaches the point where the bankers and several hundred senior Bush appointees can all be sent to secret prisons in Albania without a trial.
YLSP writes:
PCA,
But just yesterday you were saying if equities hold to their value COB today we are in for a nice rally!
Where's the confusion. IF markets close at or above yesterday's close, that makes the weekly charts rather bullish and portends a nice rally for maybe 2 weeks. However, today's USD/YEN chart has several gaps on a 10-minute that at some point need to be filled (possibly today), and that would be bearish for stocks today. And yes - the forecast by a technician I highly respect for a crash in equities this week was wrong.
"Banks know exactly how much money they have to the fraction of a cent. They see exactly how much money comes in every week through direct deposits. They know exactly how much money is delinquent every month on loans. If they aren't lending, it means that it's very bad."
This must be why banks made such wise financial decisions over the last 7 years. You know because they know to the microscopic level exactly where all their money is and what is happening with it.
Students in U.K. Schools Grow Food Amid Credit Crisis (Update1)
By Jonathan Browning and Tom Biesheuvel
Oct. 31 (Bloomberg) -- Growing food is on the curriculum at Leaden Hall private school for girls in southwest England, and students can thank the credit crisis.
Pupils are growing potatoes, tomatoes, runner beans and courgettes,'' said Diana Watkins, the head teacher of the school of 231 students, including 40 boarders, in the town of Salisbury. Planting took place in the spring, crops are tended by children and staff, andevery patch of grass is being used,'' Watkins said.
....
There's a sense of a tidal wave coming towards us,'' said Anthony Seldon, the head of the college.We don't know if it is going to be a large one, an unpleasant one, or a massive one. We think many of our parents will be adversely affected. Some of them will be very significantly affected.''
Our system of governance is largely voluntary and self policing. The Federal government through the entire series of crises has strained that agreement to the breaking point. If there seriously is a program to bailout the least deserving with the treasure of the rest there exists the distinct possibility of losing the "consent of the governed." That's not strongly worded faxes, that's armed guards at congressional district offices. Paulson is making a fatal mistake in thinking the general public will act in their ultimate best interest and pay up. The possibility of a general tax strike is something the system cannot survive and short of violence that appears to be the only tool left to taxpayers to get their attention. - 10.29.08 - 4:26 pm
The problem with punishing the guilty is that Barney Frank wants to be spanked.
Pissed Off In California writes: This must be why banks made such wise financial decisions over the last 7 years. You know because they know to the microscopic level exactly where all their money is and what is happening with it.
Don't kid yourself. Maybe the foreign banks got suckered but the domestic ones absolutely knew the outcome before they embarked on the policy.
They pointed a gun at their head to loot the state. How did they know it would work? They had one of their own making the decision to grant the bailout.
The gov does have a lever to stop exessive pay. For national banks or bank holding companies, the regulators (FDIC, etc.) could find the excessive pay to be an unsafe and unsound practice, issue a cease and disist order (probably wrong terminology), and start putting people in jail if not followed.
No problem. I'm not speaking with two mouths on my market observations. Check my homepage, but it on a 1-day, 10-minute, candle chart, you'll see 3 gaps at about 98.60, 98.30, 97.50.
Just a dysfuntional Goverment...I'm not buying any of this. As a numbers cruncher in a business all houses just don't catch fire at the same time, it is a premeditated philfering of The US Treasury.
This must be why banks made such wise financial decisions over the last 7 years. You know because they know to the microscopic level exactly where all their money is and what is happening with it.
Pissed Off In California | 10.31.08 - 11:32 am | #
They were caught up in the hoopla too. Then TSHTF they got scared.
quit crying about how to benefit from all this turmoil.
You can be bullish and bearish at the same time. With a deep out of the money three leg switchback options spread you can collect the delta regardless of market direction. If you see the implied volatilities converging on your synthetic you need only buy vega and hedge your near term theta risk. You can do this several different ways, including putting together a reverse infinity brass condor spread on VIX futures with a corresponding knock-out option write on the naked portion of your original synthetic reverse straddle. If that doesn't work just shoot yourself with a cheap dart gun and call it a day.
i cut/pasted that from linzdon's blog (i'm not that funny).
Rob Dawg,
Who's gonna guard the Congress-critters? I guess this is how the Army stationed here could be used... but still... am not sure if Army leaders are able to say they are upholding the Constitution by kicking out the Congress-critters through the will and consent of the people.
People still aren't angry enough though... as several others have seen. I have no idea why everyone is all "cool with" a 30% haircut in the stock market over a 30 day period. I'm rather pissed. It was a good thing I took a short-term loan against my 401(k) in September...
the regulators (FDIC, etc.) could find the excessive pay to be an unsafe and unsound practice, issue a cease and disist order
But most bonues are based on written contracts, not largesse. The government would be capriciously deciding that legal contracts don't have to be enforced; that's a precedent they don't want to set.
The government would be capriciously deciding that legal contracts don't have to be enforced; that's a precedent they don't want to set.
Charles Kiting
This is nothing. Check the federal record, congressional record and the executive orders. Been there, done that, got the tee shirt.
Byzantine_Ruins writes:
"I am deeply disappointed that a number of financial institutions are distorting the legislation that Congress passed at the president's request to respond to the credit crisis by making funds available for increased lending," Rep. Barney Frank said in a statement.
Gee Barney, wonder who you've got to blame.
Probably whatever loser running the House Financial Services Committee let that piece of shit get ramrodded through Congress without adequate capital controls or mandated changes in leadership at the banks.
Wonder who that would be.
Oh wait, it's YOU Barney, it's YOU that's to blame.
SOMEONE please email to Bawney Fwank his interview with Bill O' on the Factor when Bill NAILED him as just that- being the man in charge while this scam unfolded. Fwank refused to accept any responsibility at all.
And you expect anything esle from a man that ran an illegal bordelo from his basement?
"Foreign-denominated loans helped fuel eastern European economies including Poland, Romania and Ukraine, funding home purchases and entrepreneurship after the region emerged from communism. The elimination of such lending is magnifying the global credit crunch and threatening to stall the expansion of some of Europe's fastest-growing economies...Plunging domestic currencies mean higher monthly payments for businesses and households repaying foreign-denominated loans, forcing them to scale back spending...In Kiev, Ukraine, Yuriy Voloshyn, who works at a real-estate company, says he's forgoing a new television because of his dollar-based mortgage. His monthly payments have risen by 18 percent, or 1,000 hryvnias ($167), since he took out the loan seven months ago."
He's being a slime ball politician and he's doing political cover.
What a sorry state we have reached when claiming naive incompetence is safe cover. We see it again in this election. "As stupid as me" so "I don't feel bad about how stupid I am" is the best reason for picking a candidate for far too much of the country.
As I read there have been 4.5 million foreclosures as of now, there are a projected 2 million more projected for 2009, there are 5 million notified of foreclosure and there are an estimated 12 million underwater.
How did all these millions of home owners get here?
It was not the variable rates, it wasnt the sub primes mortgages, thats the lie they want you to believe.
They all got in this position because the common thread is THAT THERE IS NO BANK REGULATION OF MORTGAGE LENDING for the wealthy and powerful banks. There is no oversight. There is no supervision. There are no federal consumer banking regulations. Banks operate with absolute impunity. Banks answer to NO ONE.
Barney Franks and his fellow Congress members reaped the benefits of unregulated mortgage lending by financial institutions for years. Congress has not passed any legislation to regulate or protect anyone. It all a show. Its a lie. This Congress is our worst nightmare.
The American public if they educate themselves will think twice before signing a document prepared by a bank for any mortgage loan. The American public has been warned by the Associated Press that the property appraisal business in this country with Congressional oversight is a myth. It looks like to buy a house is to serve the rich and powerful, because everybody wins but the home owner.
2 Trillion Dollars for the wealthy and powerful- Banks-Auto Manufacturers-Wall Street- Financial Brokers-Insurance Companies-Foreign Countries- BUT NOT ONE CENT
for the American homeowner.
Barney is disappointed? Barney and the other Congressional charlatans should be stripped of their assets in the same way that is done to the American public.
For all that read this piece who are against government regulation of our banks better enjoy where we are now and where we are going. Free Market with ruthless and aberrant behavior is gone. It has been replaced with government ownership.
Our future is going to be a long dark winter of more financial turmoil until the American Public gets angry enough to do something about it. We need to restrict the politician from owning his public office.
The Bankers killed the Golden Goose and Congress buried it.
If Barney is really disappointed, then he should choke on his own vomit since he passed the bailout.
oh, and enjoy the next four years under the Messiah. Bawney Fwank and his pals are already having mutliple orgasms as they draft up numerous tax increase bills. If you don't see the increased taxes, government spending, government programs, and a complete transformation to the nanny state under a Obama, Pelosi, Reed controlled government, I got some swamp land to sell ya.
It's funny that at a time when some hedge funds are paralyzed by fear of de-leveraging, other hedge funds are finding ways to get their hands on all this new liquidity to re-leverage.
And, of course, the PPT undoubtedly is encouraging re-leveraging.
You can see all those same old liquidity crack trading patterns at work in today's market.
Does anyone know when "consumption" became part of the GDP? I've googled away and can't find a source showing it's inception.
Funny how a terminal disease tuberculosis/consumption is the terminology of the largest percentage of the current GDP. And that it's dying at an accelerated pace.
YLSP writes:
Who's gonna guard the Congress-critters? I guess this is how the Army stationed here could be used...
I foresee across the board 20% pay cuts for municipal and State employees in California for the 90% that aren't laid off. I'd be worried more about them than I would the rabble.
## This is nothing. Check the federal record, congressional record and the executive orders. Been there, done that, got the tee shirt.
Business practices are one thing. Employment contracts are another. There's a lot of desire to break union contracts, too, so maybe something will get bargained.
I foresee across the board 20% pay cuts for municipal and State employees in California for the 90% that aren't laid off. I'd be worried more about them than I would the rabble.
In that case you don't even need a tax revolt. Just one or two "acts of terror" by pissed of ex-employees of the state breaking (or just not maintaining) a water pipeline or electricity feeder line and SoCal is toast.
"Capriciously"? There is a finacial crisis, and the bank's have been given a gov bailout. Alternatively, withdraw gov support, let them go BK and then reorg.
Baron Von Helmut III writes: oh, and enjoy the next four years under the Messiah. Bawney Fwank and his pals are already having mutliple orgasms as they draft up numerous tax increase bills. If you don't see the increased taxes, government spending, government programs, and a complete transformation to the nanny state under a Obama, Pelosi, Reed controlled government, I got some swamp land to sell ya.
Uhh, genius, you already live in a morally and financially bankrupt police state. What, will the crony capitalism be WORSE? Give it a rest.
I just called a nice lady in Iceland. She said "It was a good time to be a tourist there. Not so good to be Icelandic." I asked her if they were running out of food but the food situation is fine.
She went on to tell me what did the country in "Buying Jeeps and new Apt's. that they could not afford" She said that the "shopping is great!"
Let's get on something resourceful, like each one needs to start their on (Bank)I mean Church. Probably except for weed in my County religion is the number one cash cow.
Within my County of 20k(twenty thousand) more than 200 churches open their doors each week, mostly owned by individuals, all tax exempt.
your diatribe neatly ignores the 'why' this has to happen. Putting blame on people who are given no choice to do so ignores who exacerbated the problem in the first place.
.... retailer sector is showing the most strength - ironic isn't it ?
popeye | 10.31.08 - 11:54 am
While CP markets were slow, investors probably foresaw a holiday without any inventory and total meltdown in retail. Now we have CP for inventory which means there is a possibility of surviving till next year.
Top tax rate: Senator Obama would raise the top individual tax rate back to 39.6 percent, impose an additional 2 to 4 percent tax on earnings for some over the existing Social Security wage cap, and bring back the phase-out of the personal exemption and certain itemized deductions for higher-income taxpayers. When added up, the top effective marginal tax rate rises by 12 to 14 percentage points, from 37.9 percent to roughly 48 to 50 percent. "High" is in the eye of the beholder, but these are tax rates not seen since before the Tax Reform Act of 1986.
Note: These calculations work as follows: (1) 37.9 percent equals the current 35 percent top income tax rate plus the current 2.9 percent Medicare tax rate; and (2) 48 to 50 percent equals Obama's 39.6 percent top income tax rate plus the 2.9 percent Medicare tax rate plus his additional 2-to-4 percent hike in the Social Security tax rate plus an additional roughly 4.5 percent for the phase-out of personal exemption and certain itemized deductions.
Senator Obama's plan would add $3.4 trillion to the government debt over the next ten years.
The Obama plan would still increase the top estate tax rate to 45 percent and set the exemption at $3.5 million per person ($7 million for couples). This third layer of tax on capital income detracts from economic growth. It adds an equivalent of another 5 to 10 percent tax on capital, in addition to the corporate tax and the investor level taxes on capital and dividends.
Senator Obama would set the top tax rates on dividends and capital gains at the same rate, but proposes to increase the top rate to 20 percent
For a married family, filing jointly and earning $75,000 a year, this increase will be $3,074. For those making just $50,000, this increase will be $1,512. Despite Senator Obama's claim, even struggling American families making just $25,000 a year will see a tax increase -- they'll pay $715 more in 2010 than they did in 2007. Across the board, when the tax cuts lapse, working Americans will see significant increases in their taxes, even if their household income is as low as $25,000
Check this for yourself. Go to Forms and Publications and pull up the 1040 instructions for 2000 and 2007 and go to the tax tables. Based on your 2007 income, check your taxes rates for 2000 and 2007, and apply them to your taxable income for 2007. In 2000 -- Senator Obama's benchmark year -- you would have paid significantly more taxes for the income you earned in 2007. The Bush Tax Cuts, which Senator Obama has said he will allow to lapse, saved you money, and without those cuts, your taxes will go back up to the 2000 level. Senator Obama doesn't call it a "tax increase," but your taxes under "President" Obama will increase -- significantly
Baron Von Helmut III writes:
and a complete transformation to the nanny state under a Obama, Pelosi, Reed controlled government...
Bush demanded congress and went on teevee to tell the people we must bailout the banks. Congress vetoed the first time. At Bush's direction the senate then hollowed out an old bill created the current giveaway and sent it back to the House of Reps. Paulson, a bush appointee went on BENDED KNEE to Pelosi begging to pass it.
We all are living in the bush nanny state of privatized profits and socialized risk.
I'm not voting for Obama, but I'm fine with his tax policies. It is clear that the deficit and debt is the biggest problem facing the country, and it is not going to go away by just cutting spending and praying for growth.
Not a happy taxpayer writes: Top tax rate: Senator Obama would raise the top individual tax rate back to 39.6 percent, impose an additional 2 to 4 percent tax on earnings for some over the existing Social Security wage cap, and bring back the phase-out of the personal exemption and certain itemized deductions for higher-income taxpayers. When added up, the top effective marginal tax rate rises by 12 to 14 percentage points, from 37.9 percent to roughly 48 to 50 percent. "High" is in the eye of the beholder, but these are tax rates not seen since before the Tax Reform Act of 1986.
Rome never looks where she treads.
Always her heavy hooves fall
On our stomachs, our hearts or our heads;
And Rome never heeds when we bawl.
Her sentries pass on -- that is all,
And we gather behind them in hordes,
And plot to reconquer the Wall,
With only our tongues for our swords.
We are the Little Folk -- we!
Too little to love or to hate.
Leave us alone and you'll see
How we can drag down the State!
This is pretty easy, really. If a company needed to borrow money through the bailout plan, they should not have had the money lying around for bonuses and dividends. If you have money, but are unwilling to use it to continue running your business, then screw you. Get out of the Treasury. The problem these companies had that required the bailout was not enough cash on hand. Yet the keep looking for ways to give it away. WTF?
Fungible doesn't even play into it. No bonuses, no dividends until the company is healthy enough to start paying the taxpayers back should be a condition for getting help.
Barney Frank is just about universally recognized as among the brightest people on Capitol Hill. Disagreeing with him, or supporting a party to which Frank does not belong, doesn't make a really smart guy an imbecile.
Frank is probably going to argue legislative intent. He will drag Diamond and his buds up to the Hill for hearings to make his point, ask them if they didn't notice when Congress and Treasury discussed this whole bail out thingie and said it was a good idea because it would lead to lending. When we hear from bank chiefs that they don't want to use any of the money for lending, that all of it is for acquisitions and internal happy-happy, it's no surprise Frank is cranky. He, too, understands that money is fungible, but wholesale refusal to lend is too much. I doubt he really cares whether the argument can be made from the legislative text that banks can do what the want with the money. His alternative at this point is to sit back and let them do whatever they want with the money. Barney doesn't usually sit back.
In the end, this is about power. Frank handed them money. He wants them to lend. His guy is gonna be president, and appoint the next Treasury Secretary. He is going to remain as Chairman of House Finance. He knows Congress has been a wet hanky for years, and is going to try to change that. Welcome to the new Washington.
Emp writes:
It is clear that the deficit and debt is the biggest problem facing the country, and it is not going to go away by just cutting spending and praying for growth.
Our country has a problem no matter who gets elected. Taxes are going up [period]
Don't place me in the same boat as Bush & Co. They are no better than Fwank.
Surely you aren't arguing the only choice left is to raise the taxes on the ones that played by the rules? There isn't one politician that is talking about prosecuting Mozillo, Perry, Fuld, or any of these politicians that turned a blind eye or worse- got sweetheart loans or deals. Both parties are corrupt. And for the record, I voted for Paul.
Disgust is appropriate. You either nationalize a large bank and use it to lend or you have lending requirements. To nationalize you force an IPO to be issued to give the gov't a controlling interest. Many other ways as well. Frank and Dodd are owneed by Finance/Realestate/Insurance what do you expect. Just look at campaign contributions.
Took my Q's short off from yesterday this a.m. The markets are churning with such light volume that immediate direction is difficult to access. However, what I'm waiting for is the hourly high from last Tuesday on SPY & Q's to get tested and rejected on lighter volume. The highs and lows from last Tuesday absolutely will get tested at some point. And the USD/YEN has a big gap at 97.50 from earlier today, so that could be bearish.
"The government needs to take action, said Kim Rodriguez, who leads accounting firm Grant Thornton's automotive restructuring group in Southfield, Michigan. "Chrysler as we know it will cease to exist very soon," she told reporters at a briefing yesterday."
This person would seem to be in a position to know Chrysler's situation. Not that the govt should do anything. Let the company go bankrupt.
Re: "But money is fungible, so how do we tell which funds are being used for which purpose?"
Many newer chemistry and biology analytical instruments can detect particles in the parts per quadrillion range, thus the engineering capabilities of a supercomputing Fed/Treasury must have the ability to separate the shit waste from the less toxic cash. This is a matter of audits and accountability which is the main issue of this crash and this was the main reason people didn't want TARP to be used to bailout crooks, i.e, without accountability or detection, trillions in tax payer revenues will go to golf resorts, facial fantasies, sales conventions in Bermuda, tasty snacks, drugs, booze, chicks, young pages, and the on-going trough of discretionary abuse that can be traced back to these pirates. The Fed is now a partner in non-accountability and they are unwilling to regulate and perform audits!
In regard to the concept of fungibility, Bear Stearns is now co-mingled into a trust that has zero accountability, so now that we have so many examples of bailouts versus bankrupt entities, the distinction of mark-to-market value will be like finding baby powder in a bag of cocaine -- and as with chemical spills and toxic waste, The Fed has a policy that says, the solution to pollution is dilution. There is no reason to bailout crooks!
FYI: The High-Resolution ICP-MS offered by EAI is the VG AXIOM high-resolution system that is capable of providing higher sensitivities along with higher mass resolutions. Limits of detection are in the parts-per-trillion and parts-per-quadrillion (ppq) ranges.
"In the end, this is about power. Frank handed them money. He wants them to lend."
The point is, that if you want them to lend, you don't just "hand them the money". Who do they lend to? If there are so many good borrowers out there, I would expect a stampede of private investors to be already doing it.
Having more money available to lend doesn't magically make bad credit risk borrowers become good credit risk borrowers...especially in a declining economy.
Mr. Beach, because Mr. Hovanian was quoted in that article about foreclosure relief yesterday and FHA is buying DEEP...580 and income equals a free throw now..
He stated this needs to happen for us to sell homes...
I say, "Then GO!"
Go become a CFO.
Go overseas.
Start up Hedgie - lets see how that works for ya.
I am done paying this kind of money for people who are bad at their jobs but who claim they are good at their jobs. Go Get another job, because you sure as heck are not going to continue making 7 figure bonuses for bringing us to the doorstep of a depression.
Tax increases are inevitable after Bush's 6 trillion dollar borrowing binge. Avoiding them is like avoiding the recession or the drop in house prices. If you wanted taxes to stay low you should have opposed Bush's tax cuts; every penny he cut was a penny we didn't have and it's all going to have to get clawed back, with interest, in the end. Face reality, folks.
"Nemo" These funds are made for lending
That's "just" what they're gonna do
And someday these funds are gonna lend all over you
Ha, Ha, Ha!!!! That is hilarious!!!
And I don't recall that provision (bailout, er, I mean "rescue" money only being for lending actually being in the law - can somebody cite the chapter?)
FYI: The act of "money laundering" was not invented during the Prohibition era in the United States, but many techniques were developed and refined then. Many methods were devised to disguise the origins of money generated by the sale of then-illegal alcoholic beverages. Following Al Capone's 1931 conviction for tax evasion, mobster Meyer Lansky transferred funds from Florida "carpet joints" (small casinos) to accounts overseas. After the 1934 Swiss Banking Act, which created the principle of bank secrecy, Meyer Lansky bought a Swiss bank to which he would transfer his illegal funds through a complex system of shell companies, holding companies, and offshore accounts.
The Bank Secrecy Act of 1970 requires banks to report cash transactions of $10,000.01 or more. The Money Laundering Control Act of 1986 further defined money laundering as a federal crime. The USA PATRIOT Act of 2001 expanded the scope of prior laws to more types of financial institutions, added a focus on terrorist financing, and specified that financial institutions take specific actions to "know your customer" (KYC).
I opposed the bailout. Probably 95% of us did. But I also respect the opinion of people like Paul Krugman who said that something had to be passed or there would have been complete systemic meltdown.
I know, I know -- that could happen anyway.
But I watched the hearings. Barney Frank and the democrats WERE talking about limiting executive bonuses during those hearings. They were -- I heard them say it. So to argue that Frank is being hypocritical just isn't fair.
What I did hear was Secretary Paulson saying repeatedly, AGAIN AND AGAIN, that the bill must be passed with as few restrictions as possible to encourage banks to actually use the money. That was Paulson's stated objective.
It was up to the house Democrats to try to build in as many protections as they could within that framework.
Blaming everything on Barney Frank just seems like revisionist history to me.
Byzantine_Ruins writes:
bearly writes:
What happens to JPM if the chosen one gets elected and Dimon gets Treas Secretary job ?
JPM changes places with GS as the official lead vampire.
Byzantine_Ruins | Homepage | 10.31.08 - 11:57 am | #
Nice snark, but made with a guilt by association point of view.
You might think so, but I have my doubts. JD spends an incredible amount of time managing risk, and he knows how to make smart plays (how else do you explain BS/WAMU).
He plays to win for the org he manages (B1 / JPM). If he gets to the treas - it will only be for a couple of years, and he'll play that to win for the company (the USA). The thing about JD is that he values his reputation - above all else - - kind of like a TWoods of banking - doesn't need the money - he wants to trophies.
"Barney Frank is just about universally recognized as among the brightest people on Capitol Hill."
Chrissake, that's like standing a drooling moron next to a pile of rocks and saying the drooling moron is smarter than the rocks. (Guy claimed not to know his live in male prostitute was running a brothel in his basement).
"Odds that Wall Street will forgo payouts are ``slim to none,'' John Gutfreund, 79, president of New York-based Gutfreund & Co. and the former chief executive officer of Salomon Brothers Inc., said yesterday.
ABA member banks are concerned they run the risk of being labeled -- falsely --as needing government support, or of appearing to be asking for a handout,'' Yingling wrote.This is not a program the banking industry sought.''
So the banks didn't want the money, but took it anyway, and are using the money to pay bonuses and such, because Paulson and congress forced them to?
Hel-lo? There's already been systemic meltdown! You must have missed that 3-minute special report on teevee.
What really annoys me the most that history books are already being written to show it was "derivatives" or "obama's election" or "tax cuts" when it's exactly what it was in 1929.
"o sir / madame, I regret to inform you your Republic was the victim of a premeditated daylight robbery"
I'm still holding out for the theory that a rogue gaggle of oxford dons gamed this whole thing out long ago. Why? They saw a problem with the world they thought they could fix: lack of a level playing field. (btw I thought Oxford was ground zero for speach impediments)
Franks is a great example of a pot calling the kettle black or a hot young page calling wolf. Franks will be the first one to take a holiday leave in Bermuda with funding from a lobby group which will provide him with cash, drugs, sex, snacks and all the peccadillos necessary to help make him a better member of the fascist group whose arm band he wears.
The American bred & born dopes are getting even. It's a new age and new revolt.
Step 1: Stop the flood of imports, stay at home. Translates to less consumption of goods, services, and energy. No consumption poses declines in tax revenue. US importers; China, Japan, and Germany are in a panic.
Step 2: No contributions to 401k and IRA's. Screw Wall Street Casino conmen
Step 3:Stop paying mortgages, cc's, RE taxes. No more refinancing or HELOCS.
Step 4: Walk away from debt. Goobermint and banks never thought in their wild dreams that the indentured servants would walk outta their overpriced hovels when ARM's had reset. Banks thought they cornered the consumer with the bankruptcy law on cc's.
Step 5: Pay cash, no cc's.
Voodoo economics has backfired. Dirty dog has come back to bite the masters in the ass.
"Odds that Wall Street will forgo payouts are ``slim to none,''
That's likely true - the peons won't get bonuses - likely they'll sacrifice their own to pay the bonuses.
And, again, the 'loan the money' argument is idiotic and echoes the ACORN mentality of 'loan money to those who can't afford to repay'. This is why we are in the mess we are currently in.
The banks will loan the money - to those who can repay the money. Just because its not happening this week, doesn't mean it won't start happening next week.
Folks, if what you want to do is vent spleen, well, enjoy that. If you want to understand how the big kids do stuff, this "oooooooo, he's so stupid" stuff ain't gonna get you there.
You will, in a few minutes, be able to read on Reuters that JPM is going to modify $110 bln in mortgages, and hold up on foreclosures while that process is underway. Right after the conference call in which Diamond said not one penney of the TARP money would go for new lending and Frank blew a gasket. Bad move by Diamond. Frank called him on it. Diamond is rewriting a boatload of mortgages. Any questions?
We are having the wool pulled over our eyes REGARDLESS of who gets elected.
Get a clue!
Jas is right about born and bred dopes..
Pissed Off In California | 10.31.08 - 12:21 pm | #
I will admit to my share of dopishness and I am as cynical as they come. I guess what I should have said is that I feel bad for the people who really, really do not have a clue and believe the bs.
But, hey, maybe they will not even notice they were scammed and we all know that ignorance is bliss.
And before you get your panties/boxers in a wad, this goes for both parties!
You stupid bastard, Hanky put a big fat one right in your shute and you held your cheeks wide open.
As a taxpayer if you think you clowns are going to take money out of my right pocket and give it to these theives so I can borrow it back and pay them intrest to borrow my own damn money fou are full of crap. Think I'll just sit on my ass, cut my income to the bone and enjoy life. It's a great time to be a bum.
The first is lending out the pile they were handed. Forcing them to do so is probably not the best idea, though as we all know, bankers tend to over-react during downturns and decline even good prospects.
The second is using the pile for something other than lending. Paying out bonuses is preposterous. The companies aren't doing well, or they wouldn't be taking these capital infusions and writing down billions of dollars of loans. And the sob stories about secretaries being punished and not receiving their 30K bonuses are irrelevant. Nearly every American is going to have higher taxes and a lower standard of living because of Wall Street stupidity. We're all going to be suffering for years, and I don't see why bank secretaries should suffer substantially less.
Using the money for M&A is stupid in a lot of cases because of the TBTF problem. (Some mergers of smaller institutions might be ok as long as nobody receives bonuses or premiums from the moves.)
If the capital just sat on bank balance sheets for a while, that would be tolerable to me if it reduces the perception of widespread counterparty risk.
The problem is that the extent of that debt was exponentially increased by the extent of leverage that was permitted as the result of deregulation and the shadow banking system. The free market got greedy - that's the excessive debt that is the systemic crisis.
"The PMI data, particularly the declining employment trends and the huge falls in production output and order backlogs, are "deep recession readings," said High Frequency Economics' Ian Shepherdson. The "horrific" results, he said, make it clear that the Chicago PMI has been pole-axed by the meltdown in the financial system.""
Frank is a bright guy - he knows exactly what the legislation did or did not require - this "misunderstanding of intent" is a tool that will be used in the next session to add more "initiatives" to the pile.
But I watched the hearings. Barney Frank and the democrats WERE talking about limiting executive bonuses during those hearings. They were -- I heard them say it. So to argue that Frank is being hypocritical just isn't fair.
Sure - they were talking about it and there are even provisions in the bill with some of the restrictions they were talking about. But, many restrictions were "compromised" out and there are also loopholes which effectively avoid those that did make it in. This was relatively public knowledge - some Congressmen even mentioned it in their discussions of the bill. It's Frank's responsibility to make sure the bill actually does what it's supposed to do, and he blew it.
"so how do we tell which funds are being used for which purpose?"
Guess they should of thought about that to begin with. But no, couldn't do that, what with a gun to their heads and threats of "this sucker is going down". Just another terrorizing rerun. Act in haste, then realize just how bad those decisions turned out to really be, now posture for the constituency.
Heard on either CNBC or Bloomberg that part of the money that they want to give in bonuses are bonuses from years ago that executives deferred to help with their taxes, etc...
All I have to say about that is tough shit. I lost a boatload of money, they can lose a boatload of money.
More "Oh %^&&!" numbers on the A2/P2 spread - 472 basis points, another all-time high. For comparison, it was 150 in the 73-75 recession, so the upcoming recession is predicted to be 3 times as bad. (the spread is roughly a measure of bankruptcy risk in medium-credit-risk companies).
The big banks would likely target acquisitions with solid loan portfolios; ones that didn't do much or any funny lending. Then, the big bank might go bankrupt anyway, taking out a sound and responsible lender with it.
Paulson's probably wondering what's wrong with that.
Kind of explains the manufacturing carnage I've heard is happening in rural IL.
Isn't just Illinois - and it isn't just automotive either. Its spreading and this should come as no surprise considering how tight funding is - who is going to stick out their neck if the end consumer (here OR abroad) can't fund at the end of the pipeline?
The first is lending out the pile they were handed. Forcing them to do so is probably not the best idea, though as we all know, bankers tend to over-react during downturns and decline even good prospects.
The second is using the pile for something other than lending. Paying out bonuses is preposterous. The companies aren't doing well, or they wouldn't be taking these capital infusions and writing down billions of dollars of loans. And the sob stories about secretaries being punished and not receiving their 30K bonuses are irrelevant. Nearly every American is going to have higher taxes and a lower standard of living because of Wall Street stupidity. We're all going to be suffering for years, and I don't see why bank secretaries should suffer substantially less.
If the capital just sat on bank balance sheets for a while, that would be tolerable to me if it reduces the perception of widespread counterparty risk.
Exactly. To argue otherwise is like encouraging the same behavior you just spanked thier backsides for one minute earlier while the cheeks are still stinging.
You friggin' even altered the legislation by recording into testimony that "impaired assets" included buying stock.
Douche!
Knurd!
Nostrovia,
Corpse Misean is Dope | 10.31.08 - 11:03 am | #
Including buying stock as part of the impaired assets was far and away the best part of the package. I just wish that a) all of the funds weere used for that and 2) we had someone negotiating the terms of buying said stakes in the banks that actually gave a shit about the taxpayers, on who's behalf he was supposed to be working.
Popeye, sso and sds have close times different from the sp500. So if there are large last minute changes then the next day they won't necessarily track as 2x up and down. There really isn't a discrepancy.
"Chrysler as we know it will cease to exist very soon,"
Same game, different year. 1979 bailout. Chrysler fails again in 29 years and we should bail it out again?
1983 heritage foundation article: In the case of the Chrysler bail-out, a big chunk of taxpayer money was committed to a shaky and inappropriate venture. Every American became an involuntary and uncompensated partner in a company whose future is still in doubt. The precedent established is extremely dangerous. On top of this, the bail-out even failed in its purpose."
Sol writes:
"so how do we tell which funds are being used for which purpose?"
It doesn't matter. The TRAP funds could be totally walled off and hermetically sealed - WSt is still going to pay bonuses - most likely by sacrificing their pawns and using their salaries.
The country is in the worst fiancial crisis in its history. If the bank execs will not volunarily take a pay cut force it. One perp walk in prison orange would do wonders IMO.
I was hoping to see an editorial from you there as well, but that is a good ol story. The machine gun reminds me of The Paulson Bazooka and the gun reminds me of the gun Bernanke and Friends held to the heads of The Senate & Congress and the blood stain reminds me of taxpayer revenues flowing into the gutter, back to the well.
Y.T. writes:
Popeye, sso and sds have close times different from the sp500. So if there are large last minute changes then the next day they won't necessarily track as 2x up and down. There really isn't a discrepancy.
Y.T.,
Thanks. I've been watching that relationship and getting mixed results.
Can you suggest where I might find a more detailed explanation of sso, sds and sp500 ?
And more "Oh #$%$" numbers - Baltic Dry down 4% in one day to 851. I don't have historical numbers, but based on graphs and blog comments, on an inflation-adjusted basis this is below the 750-800 low in 2001 and the 500 low back into the 80's. At this point BDI should level off because the cost of renting a ship is falling below even operating costs. Soon further declines in shipping will idle and mothball ships rather than lower the BDI. We actually won't even know how bad things are getting, at least by looking at price indicators.
Oh, and the 4% in one day is actually rather mild - we've had several days down >6% lately.
O'Reilly is, as usual, full of it. His complaint is that Frank resisted restrictions on Fannie and Freddie. But, since Fannie and Freddie had only 1/7 the default rate of true private lenders, O'Reilly's way would have made things even worse and Frank's would have made it better.
Only in government do people really believe that certain 'monies' are earmarked only for certain expenses.
Anybody else: if a bailout check comes in and a bonus goes out, the connection is obvious.
"What do you think the fate is of the giant warehouse/distrib centers that went up in rural areas over the past decade or so."
There were millions of square feet that went up on spec that were never occupied. If you go back into the records you might find many cases where special bond issues made quite sure the developers had little risk. Strangely enough the construction people made money on them though.
Ok, come on, what about a HELOC & MEW as it relates to TARP?
Re:
Mr. Bernanke responded: Our sense and this so far seems to be borne out by the data is that consumers respond to changes in the value of their home essentially because theres a change in their wealth, not because theres a change in their access to liquid assets.
"Think I'll just sit on my ass, cut my income to the bone and enjoy life. It's a great time to be a bum."
Anonymous | 10.31.08 - 12:39 pm | #
My plan...
Cut all my overtime out.
Max my 401k at 50%.
Take some time off w/o pay.
This should greatly reduce my taxes.
Then crank up the side cash biz...
I don't think the .gov realises how much tax rolls can drop off...
At this point BDI should level off because the cost of renting a ship is falling below even operating costs. Soon further declines in shipping will idle and mothball ships rather than lower the BDI.
This and the news recently about the kidnapped scrap metal exec is just getting waaay too strange. Global trade collapse? Maybe not so wacky, after all. That lends a lot of weight to the comment I heard here recently about China's "Over-Capacity Armageddon".
FairEcon " O'Reilly's way would have made things even worse and Frank's would have made it better."
That's hysterical. Encouraging F&F to take on more risky loans at the exact time home prices began cratering parabolically to try and prop up the market & increasing leverage was the absolute best recipe for accelerating disaster.
There were Congressmen on both sides of the aisle pushing for a better (at least in the sense of not profoundly corrupt) bailout. They were even the majority in the House. But the leadership (on both sides, and including both Presidential candidates) arm-twisted enough into passing it.
Incidentally, a great predictor of votes on the bailout bill was contributions from the financial industry. If you want to stop this kind of thing, have public financing of campaigns. That one 700 billion bailout could probably have paid for every federal campaign for all time.
"SAN DIEGO, Oct 29 (Reuters) - The pension fund of San Diego, California, may have lost as much as $1 billion of its $5 billion in assets recently, potentially adding to the financial challenges weighing on the state's second-largest city.
According to San Diego City Attorney Michael Aguirre, San Diego's city pension fund for nearly 20,000 active and retired employees has lost at least $700 million between Dec. 30, 2007, and Sept. 30 -- before the worst of the stock market's recent crash."
Kung Fu Panda: California will never be hosed. As the economy crumbles, rich people from all over will move to California. Everyone wants to live here, and now they can!
jmay writes:
Speaking of not spending money that we don't have.
Barney Frank also suggested that we should cut 25% of our defense spending...
And McCain is attacking him for it.
Who's the conservative?
Please.......cutting our defense budget is now conservative? As usual, that's the only place Fwank can see to cut. No waste in the thousands of other government programs.
Yeah, Fwank is a champion of conservative spending. Representing the home of the 15 billion BIG DIG.
On top of this, the bail-out even failed in its purpose.
Huh? The Federal government made (a relatively small amount of) money on the original C bailout. Iacocca had a plan and it worked. Chrysler was profitable for many years. Just because three business cycles and two changes of ownership later C is on the ropes again doesn't mean the 1979 loan guarantees didn't work.
How smooth is evil, how uncanny in its mimicry
Which can dispense philanthropy and sympathy,
Pronounce full and sufficient orthodoxy,
Display its pious courtesy, gentility
But if there is no continence of will,
No sacrifice of appetite, that it be stilled,
Then every outward charity infects and kills -
No loving is that is an exercise in skill
The outward drape of inner base intent
Impoverished and soiled, impaired and bent
Will not be straightened by its sentiment -
Appearance of a good is evils armament
But evil will reply: I am combined
And mixed, for excellence and ill I was designed
Erste.
These funds are made for lending
That's what they're gonna do
And someday these funds are gonna lend all over you
You give the devil a ride, he'll want to drive.
What a stupid plan. What a stupid and naive congress and senate.
This is exactly why any bailout must wipe out all shareholders and management. Full Stop.
what about the $40b to go to other people's mortgages? is that allowed in the legislation?
TAX STRIKE.
What? I thought the funds are for bonuses.
But money is fungible, so how do we tell which funds are being used for which purpose?
Should have given them marked bills.
I don't believe that was ever written in the legislation.
This is what people like CR readers were screaming about when the bill passed!
As Mish always said: lenders can't be forced to lend and borrowers can't be forced to borrow.
But money is fungible
Yeah it does kind of stink like my athlete's foot.
dye packs?
http://theonorth.com/wp-content/assets/barneyfrank.jpg
This plan wasn't about giving them money to lend. It was about covering their mortgage losses until they could get back on their feet.
Barney Franks is an imbecile. I don't know he keeps getting re-elected.
.
Nemo writes:
But money is fungible
Yeah it does kind of stink like my athlete's foot.
Any smelly moeny you don't want, I'll take.
"But money is fungible, so how do we tell which funds are being used for which purpose?"
Examine their books - if they're lending adequately, loosen the noose and let them walk off the gallows. If they can't prove that they're lending adequately, drop the trap.
We did install a 1,000 trap gallows in Wall Street, didn't we?
Let's see how to make them accountable...I know, how about honor system? uhmmm, what is that saying written in that parchment thingy about a well self-regulated multi-national corporation? you know...right?
but Barney frank's analysis is consistent with their (false) assertion that the crisis is about liquidity not solvency.
"But money is fungible."
But politics is malleable.
FF daily effective rate = 0.30.
Federal Funds Chart
"...financial institutions are distorting the legislation that Congress passed..."
No Barney, they do not possess that function. The legislation is exactly what it was.
You sent them supplies and guidelines, they are doing their best at optimizing their use of funds within the guidelines.
oh, and I'm shocked. Just shocked.
Wasn't expressly written into the bill. More of a "we'll give it you and you lend" nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
Anyone who thought or thinks this was done to open up lending is either an idiot or in Congress.....or both.
Ciao
MS
Bond Girl - thanks
Bond Girl --
So does that mean I get partial credit for my prediction of a 75-100 bps cut?
Should have given them marked bills.
scent marked ?
"I am deeply disappointed that a number of financial institutions are distorting the legislation that Congress passed at the president's request to respond to the credit crisis by making funds available for increased lending," Rep. Barney Frank said in a statement.
Gee Barney, wonder who you've got to blame.
Probably whatever loser running the House Financial Services Committee let that piece of shit get ramrodded through Congress without adequate capital controls or mandated changes in leadership at the banks.
Wonder who that would be.
Oh wait, it's YOU Barney, it's YOU that's to blame.
Anyone who voted for the bailout allowed themselves to be corralled by party leaders into voting for a piece of legislation that what incredibly poorly written.
And now, Rep Frank, expresses shock that banks are doing what he wants.
This sums up the attitude the banks have:
YouTube - Monty Python - Nudge Nudge Sketch
"evening squire"
Ciao
MS
This is about keeping The Priviliged in a Good Life.
Well Barney, you had to push the bill through didn't you. This is what you get. You are a fool!
Another step toward nationalization of the banks. If that was my goal, this would be a step I would take toward making it politically palatable.
Step 1: Bail the banks out, but with over-the-top theatrics about how this will solve all the problems
Step 2: Show that they are not using the funds the way that was "intended"
Step 3: Make a few futile gestures asking them to be "responsible" with the money (holding in your laughter as best you can)
Step 4: Present the only logical solution to the conundrum of "But money is fungible, so how do we tell which funds are being used for which purpose?"... answer, by being the direct distributor of funds.
I'd suggest catuion. Senator Frank may not be as naive as he seems.
Erste vielleicht, aber nicht erste Klasse - I have a ticket to ride.
Frank still seems, frankly, unaware of what those tax payer sponsored funds are for - to make sure that Wall Street can keep functioning in its accustomed style, without any fear of any bankruptcy beyond the moral. The sort of bankruptcy which troubles nary an investment banker, much less a mortgage broker.
And since so many people seem convinced of inflation - another perspective of what has happened to those funds is that they have disappeared (after a cut for those handling said funds, of course) into the black hole that is the chasm of money destruction.
Truly, we have not seen money destroyed since the Great Depression - when entire empires of money simply disappeared, as did many banks.
People keep thinking the Fed, or somebody, can do something to stop this. Frank, a man who in one sense has had a front row seat to the money being shovelled into the furnace, still doesn't understand something that has never happened in his life - what seems to be happening now can only be found in history books, leaving aside the special case of Japan, which in less than two decades managed to go from a positive number to a mirror negative one after watching a property and stock bubble implode, while banks were kept propped up long beyond any rational reason, simply to keep the system appearing stable.
However, Japan is not the USA - they actually had savings to convert to debt, and they actually manufactured products that the world wanted to buy.
Barney, is it ok if they use those funds for campaign contributions to help you get reelected?
surely that counts as 'lending'?
What is Barney going to do about it? Take away the money? Baby Bop is much smarter.
I just tried checking fares to Iceland. IcelandAir website is not working correctly. A surprising amount of Icelandic links are not working either. I wonder how many of servers are out of the country and turned off?
Of course, just giving money to people through wages and dividends is arguably more effective than lending money to bankrupt taxpayers and expecting them to pay it back with interest.
Once again this picture describes what happened...
Paulsen 3:16 says "I just stole all your money!"
Erste vielleicht, aber nicht erste Klasse
Ihre Mutter erklärte mir anders.
Dear Barney, and your coterie on both sides of the isle:
Either thou, or I, or both, must go.
And a pox on both your houses.
Regards,
Taxpayers
bh
--
Born-and-bred American dopes are told all their lives: "Rule of Laws and Not of Men." What a bunch of dopes -- IT IS ALWAYS the Rule of Men and any system is ONLY AS GOOD AS Men making the Laws and Men Enforcing the Laws.
Financial Nazis of America are evil rulers. Period. Democracy = Domination of Money has already transpired. The last phase of democracy ALWAYS IS Rule of Mobs, And it is coming to a democracy near you, beginning with Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, America Larger a democracy worse would the outcome be.
Outing dopes and Crooks,
Jas
Barney Fudd.
KNURD!
Not a whit of that in the legislation you 'tard.
You friggin' even altered the legislation by recording into testimony that "impaired assets" included buying stock.
Douche!
Knurd!
Nostrovia,
Someone smarter than me can correct this: As a C corproration, the money would have to be accounted for as received and posted to a certain account. The account of receipt would be the tracking for use of the monies. If they placed them into some sort of general ledger, then they could be tracked from there. The geniuses at the IRS should be called in to do smoe snooping. (can't believe I just said that)
More Chart Pron:
The ECRI Coincident Index and its relationship to recessions from 1950 through today.
Chart of the Day - www.chartoftheday.com
Enjoy
Gee Barney, maybe you should have read the bill before you passed it! You signed off on a bill which is basically 100 pages of loopholes; you should have known they'd be able to do anything.
Barney Franks is an imbecile. I don't know he keeps getting re-elected.
Anonymous | 10.31.08 - 10:49 am | #
Must be his reeel purdy mouth...soo-EEE!!!
How dare they repair their balance sheets!
In socialism such concepts do not concern us.
ova writes:
What is Barney going to do about it? Take away the money? Baby Bop is much smarter.
I just tried checking fares to Iceland. IcelandAir website is not working correctly. A surprising amount of Icelandic links are not working either. I wonder how many of servers are out of the country and turned off?
Nova,
Random response, but I think there was a lot of talk about using Iceland as an international enterprise datacenter provider, because of the low electrical costs (geo-thermal and already low environmental temps for cooling), and because the population is decently educated to manage them...doesn't bode well if websites are down.
What? We give you lunch money and you use it to buy more weed? Well then, here's some more lunch money.
The Ghost of blackhat
Yes, I did not see it as a good sign either. Methinks there is more going on then we are seeing in the US media.
You buy non voting shares, you get nothing to complain about. Why Paulson/Bush went this route says more about them than it says about banks or Congress--they deliberately birthed a handicapped investor.
Poor Barney. And poor all of us.
He (and we?) thinks credit creates wealth. He doesn't get it that credit is a symptom of a balance system under the rule of law. As long as asset prices are inflated and debt levels are too high relative to output, lending will be constricted.
The gov just did currency swaps with Mexico, Korea, Brazil, Singapore with no strings. How is this different? How much do you think is going into foreign politicians personal bank accounts? Do you think the US will ever see any of this $ repaid. The US currency is being destroyed at an amazing pace by these idiots.
Rob WereDawg writes:
What? We give you lunch money and you use it to buy more weed? Well then, here's some more lunch money.
Or, so your smoking weed!?? We'll, here's an ounce of weed, and you can't leave this room until you've smoked every last bit of it.
Suspected U.S. missile strike in Pakistan's north Waziristan: witness
Accrued or not - the politics of paying out the 2008 bonus pool early next year is going to be quite ugly.
I personally think that the companies on the dole should be forced to issue stock options with a zero based strike to their employees for the same value of their cash bonus pool (maybe with the share price used for the calculation based off of a 30 day average).
Then, the tax implications for the bonus recipients and issuers is a wash, they (the employees) are made whole on their bonuses, the banks preserve their partially tax-payer funded capital, and leave it to equity holders and new option holders to sort out the price.
And if congress wants to put in some kind of teeth regarding a performance claw-back, they could instead just modify the vesting schedule of said options (and possibly tweak the tax status of the ISO/NSO for these particular options).
This would effectively preserve the accrued value of the bonus pool compensation to each employee, and preserve corporate cash by essentially doing an equity offering to their own employees.
Honest maw, I didn't buy weed. We got any cookies, I'm hungry.
Knurd!
Nostrovia,
Anon:
The US currency is being destroyed at an amazing pace by these idiots.
Not idiots. This is the trashout / looting of the American economy.
That didn't take long. A few weeks ago he was waving the flag for this bill - its champion. Now we're slipping into "that Congress passed at the president's request"... uh it was his idea, I just voted for it.
yuk
B:Pinky, are you pondering what Im pondering?
P:Well, I think so, Brain, but its a miricle that this one grew back.
Knurd! Zoit! Snarf!
Barney is lying and knew full well how these funds would be spent and why.
This is pure political cover by the Democrats.
Now this is just tragic...I missed it when it came out:
Mother's Cookies abruptly shut down
No more Mother's Cookies......I am so bummed.
Ciao
MS
we are so f%&ked.
I'm guessing him or his staff didn't bother listening to the SIFMAlys call...which explained how everything Congress was claiming in the bill have numerous loopholes..
So, like, Barney Frank just admitted that the bailout was a humongous con job, right?
There are no restrictions on the money. There never were any restrictions on the money. There will never be any restrictions on the money.
Nothing has changed. Losses are losses.
All assets declining in value.
Defaults accelerating.
Trends all down.
Stay short or stay out.
ova writes:
The Ghost of blackhat
Yes, I did not see it as a good sign either. Methinks there is more going on then we are seeing in the US media.
nova | 10.31.08 - 11:07 am | #
I keep envisioning Tall Blond Nordic People sharpening sticks and chasing eachother through the streets demanding to know the contents of eachothers wallets...weird.
OT - For those watching the USD/YEN this a.m., I've noticed several gaps below that will need to be filled, and if done during market hours should lead to quite a pull back in equities.
Happy auto-da-fé!
You guys should see the shameless ads Barney Frank is running in MA. Totally ignoring the fact that he has been the head of the Finance committee for the past two years and did nothing in that time, and voted for the bailout, he is acting like he is the populist hero standing up to financial interests. Sickening.
A Tax Strike is an AWESOME idea, but everyone would have to do it. I wonder how far the Feds would go to get their money?
The big joke of the bailout is that the money was already spent before they got it. All 5 investment banks were virtually insolvent by any standard, and 10 billion here and there is enough to keep them going for another 3 months. They are leveraged 30 to 1, probably over 40 to 1 with the stock prices so beaten down. Banks aren't lending because they're in survival mode. Banks know exactly how much money they have to the fraction of a cent. They see exactly how much money comes in every week through direct deposits. They know exactly how much money is delinquent every month on loans. If they aren't lending, it means that it's very bad.
In Soviet Amerika, bailout funds lend YOU!
Forget about the federal government receiving anything in return for lending: This is BushCo's end-of-term raiding of the U.S. Treasury.
Enjoy
I was trying to find some Icelandic blogs to check out (both to see if they're up and to see what they have to say), and I ran across this gem of a report:
Commission auditing Iceland has money stuck in ... Iceland
PCA,
But just yesterday you were saying if equities hold to their value COB today we are in for a nice rally!
Ghost of blackhat
Funny.
I imagined four or five Iceland men looking at the blueprints of a longboat and mumbling "Odin, I think we can do this."
I love how these politicians get to act all surprised when something goes wrong, when they knew full well that it would.
OT ..... but sso has been running a % gain more than 4 x the spx all morning...
If they didn't want the money used for general operating purposes then they should have required companies to suspend dividends and cap salaries. What did they expect?
SpeciousRiches
Fudd gave them a slush fund and now he's SHOCKED! how it's being spent.
Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
I think so brain, but I think it's easier to put it than to get it out.
KNURD!
Nostrovia,
Has anyone at any of these investment banks still standing taken a pay cut? I read somewhere that the still plan on paying out billions in Christmas bonuses. What's up with that?
PCA,
But just yesterday you were saying if equities hold to their value COB today we are in for a nice rally!
YLSP
And a couple of days before that he was saying that this week was going to be a massacre for stocks.
Better than a tax strike...just take all of your money out of the bank. It will hurt much worse.
and POW! You can prove you are complying with the state's wishes.
PS: I'll hold a gun to the borrower's head to make sure he 'plays ball'.
And a couple of days before that he was saying that this week was going to be a massacre for stocks.
Emp | 10.31.08 - 11:17 am
It should be a massacre for stocks. It's just that most people have started their morning off by drinking.
Man, what a passive-aggressive country America has become.
Handing out money one minute, firing missiles into Syria and Pakistan the next.
No wonder nobody is our friend.
I guess Barney is trying to learn the rules of Calvinball an loosing.
Um... I'm sorry, but are all of you saying that Barney Frank should be saying nothing about the Bank's misuse of the money?
Should he disappear into the woodwork as Paulson has done?
If Frank speaks about bonuses and the such publicly, there is more of a chance that the banks will be shamed into using LESS of the the bailout money for executive bonuses and the like.
Not none, just less.
DK writes:
Better than a tax strike...just take all of your money out of the bank. It will hurt much worse.
Yeppers. Been doing it like clockwork just a few hours after my paycheck is deposited since the start of the bailout.
I recommend it to anyone who cares to make a point of "no confidence".
tough to shame the shameless
If a bank was given 5 bils bailout, and the loans they gave out since receiving that bailout is just a small percentage of that bailout, isn't it obvious that they're hoarding cash, or use the bailout loan for other purposes?
Banks respond:
The gluteus maximus is for exit only.
A Tax Strike is an AWESOME idea, but everyone would have to do it. I wonder how far the Feds would go to get their money?
You wouldn't need everyone. I suspect that less than a 10% participation would cause real turmoil.
And judging from the rate of layoffs, we're gonna get an involuntary tax strige anyway.
--
"You give the devil a ride, he'll want to drive. What a stupid plan. What a stupid and naive congress and senate."
Interesting Times,
I couldn't have better except that it is sugar-coated a bit when you use the term "naive." Were German Nazis naive when it came to treatment of Jews? It was a deliberate act and so is everything happening in America. Every financial act in America is a premeditated act, including reckless mortgage lending and everything that has gone on. It is only a chance happening to born-and-bred dopes. Every act of evildoers Greenspan, Rubin, Breanne and Paulson was/is a premeditated act.
Americans would have to come to terms with their evil rulers.
Jas
Frank must be out to lunch, the equity stakes the government in these institutions comes with no guarantee that the investments will spur lending and unfreeze credit markets.
The government does not have board seats or any other leverage to demand that that the firms actually use the money to help the economy. The truth of the matter is, they can't put a gun to anyones head and say you have to lend the money.
This is what people like CR readers were screaming about when the bill passed!
No sht. I included that in my letter to my congresscritter and honestly, I don't know what the fck I'm talking about. How can so many people trusted with leadership be so freakin' clueless? The level of lobbiest involvement in our government has reached dangerously toxic levels, clearly.
re: Iceland travel--I got this last week:
Find Airfare to Europe, Airline Tickets to Europe, and More | Travelzoo
Thought it was kind of funny because I never remember them having a trip to Iceland before.
Barney Franks is an imbecile. I don't know he keeps getting re-elected.
Perhaps.
But I have emailed and called my congressfolk (all 3) EVERY OTHER DAY for the last 2 weeks about the fact that $70b of the $750b will go to bonuses.
The message may be getting through.
Barney Frank is a politician. he's no idiot. he's saying what he needs to say to help mollify idiots like me who are incensed that Wall Streeters are going to get near-record bonuses this year.
The old addage "we gotta pay them or they'll go somewhere else" doesn't work. where are these Wall St titans going to go? To a Hedge Fund? HAHAHHAHHAHAHA
to another big bank? HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH
To a pension fund?
HAHAHAHHAHAHAH
the entire financial industry is one big crap-pile. there is no reason for them to all give big bonuses. there will be so many financial job losses that their salaries need to FALL this year, not rise.
and the politicians are starting to get it.
On a side note: with enough pressure we may see a huge turnaround on the "banks willing to lend" side.
I told my rep's secretary that we might as well just nationalize the banks. they seemed more receptive to that than they did 2 weeks ago.
Imagine the bank's dilemna:
lend and go BK or get nationalized.
Things are going to happen. Not good things... but things.
Kilgore Trout: "This is BushCo's end-of-term raiding of the U.S. Treasury."
You just keep telling yourself that. Everything bad that has happened in the last 8 years came from one man and a small band of friends. More than 400 honest congressmen and 100 upright senators were fooled repeatedly by an arch-genius vice president behind the man who can not pronounce the word "nuclear".
War: presidents fault
Preparedness for weather: presidents fault
Economy: presidents fault
Congratulations on next week's election. Please remember in 2010 - when you are president you are in complete control.
...some pitchers you could always tell when they'd try and throw you a curveball....Barney's an idiot as are most inside the Beltway......Wait till the new set of retards get inducted - that'll be a REAL show.
I gotta go talk to the cow....
jmay,
The point is that a lot of bailout critics made this point to the deaf-ears in Congress when the bailout was being worked through Congress.
Frank never stipulated that the money be used for lending. In fact he was so proud of how much he improved the original Paulsen Plan with regulations and oversight.
So him coming out and trying to shame the banks is pretty lame...
Bloomberg: Almost three weeks after the government threw its guarantee behind new bank bonds, no U.S. finance company has braved the market.
Banks have until Nov. 12 to decide if they don't want to participate in the program
Banks dominated corporate bond sales last year, accounting for 71 percent of $1.02 trillion of investment-grade new issuance, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. As the credit seizure deepened and yields over benchmark rates soared to records, banks were forced out of the market.
"No major U.S. bank has sold debt since Sept. 3."
I thought the goobermint was buying up all the banks and other entities stinking alphabet soup of debt instruments.
Jas,
Lets not go down Nazi lane this early in the morning.
I am sooo glad you quit using profanity. It detracted from your concise yet brilliant critiques of America.
Congratulations on next week's election. Please remember in 2010 - when you are president you are in complete control.
Awesome response!
You win a free tumbrel ride!
Barney Frank: We want our insolvent banks to be even more insolvent.
Thanks for playing Barney. Now go back home and put yourself out of our misery.
I am totally surprised that devil's night in Detroit wasn't a free for all. You know with all that 'kindling' available and that....
Ciao
MS
Let's do a nationwide mortgage strike and put ther banks out of business. They are crooks, and the bailout money is being used to buy their crappy commercial paper - it has little or nothing to do with "subprime" mortgages.
11,666,666 Home Owners Could be Rescued from Foreclosure « Your Mortgage or Your Life…
They made bad bets at the hight of the market, and now they don't want to face the music.
They would not hvae had any problem keeping the profits if the bets had paid out.
Busllshit.
Somehow the genius majority of voters in MA keep electing Frank to Congress. Maybe it's the witches...few years ago I visited Salem, MA and saw the memorial to the people that were burnt as witches. Guess what was across the street...a store promoting witchcraft. America is great.
Silence Serfs!
Now back to mindlessly further enslavement our yourselves and future generations for cheaply made crap from China!
They are leveraged 30 to 1, probably over 40 to 1 with the stock prices so beaten down. Banks aren't lending because they're in survival mode. Banks know exactly how much money they have to the fraction of a cent. They see exactly how much money comes in every week through direct deposits. They know exactly how much money is delinquent every month on loans. If they aren't lending, it means that it's very bad.
DK | 10.31.08 - 11:13 am | #
DK--when I tell people this, they get very quiet.
This whole thing is beyond absurd.
Force a bunch of new loans out the door that are almost guaranteed to go sour because of pressure to lend and then step in to bail out the loans made using taxpayer money later.
jmay,
"If Frank speaks about bonuses and the such publicly, there is more of a chance that the banks will be shamed into using LESS of the the bailout money for executive bonuses and the like."
Banksters shamed!
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahaha!
Yeah and Santa is going to bring everyone a squirrel and a pony for Christmas.
Seriously though, one of the TRAP's main cheerleaders coming out now and saying what he's saying now is known as hypocracy.
I refuse to reward that.
Knurd!
Nostrovia,
Anybody notice that orange add on the main page. Is this a new trend. :-/
The timing of this may work out well. I hope the banks spend the entire $700 billion on bonuses before January. Then in February public outrage finally reaches the point where the bankers and several hundred senior Bush appointees can all be sent to secret prisons in Albania without a trial.
Sounds like plan.
YLSP writes:
PCA,
But just yesterday you were saying if equities hold to their value COB today we are in for a nice rally!
Where's the confusion. IF markets close at or above yesterday's close, that makes the weekly charts rather bullish and portends a nice rally for maybe 2 weeks. However, today's USD/YEN chart has several gaps on a 10-minute that at some point need to be filled (possibly today), and that would be bearish for stocks today. And yes - the forecast by a technician I highly respect for a crash in equities this week was wrong.
"Banks know exactly how much money they have to the fraction of a cent. They see exactly how much money comes in every week through direct deposits. They know exactly how much money is delinquent every month on loans. If they aren't lending, it means that it's very bad."
This must be why banks made such wise financial decisions over the last 7 years. You know because they know to the microscopic level exactly where all their money is and what is happening with it.
Name,
Very well said. Congresspeople from both sides of the aisle were taking big bucks from the GSE's.
Somehow the genius majority of voters in MA keep electing Frank to Congress.
Massachusetts: the speech impediment capital of the world.
Meanwhile in the UK
Students in U.K. Schools Grow Food Amid Credit Crisis (Update1)
By Jonathan Browning and Tom Biesheuvel
Oct. 31 (Bloomberg) -- Growing food is on the curriculum at Leaden Hall private school for girls in southwest England, and students can thank the credit crisis.
Pupils are growing potatoes, tomatoes, runner beans and courgettes,'' said Diana Watkins, the head teacher of the school of 231 students, including 40 boarders, in the town of Salisbury. Planting took place in the spring, crops are tended by children and staff, andevery patch of grass is being used,'' Watkins said.
....
There's a sense of a tidal wave coming towards us,'' said Anthony Seldon, the head of the college.We don't know if it is going to be a large one, an unpleasant one, or a massive one. We think many of our parents will be adversely affected. Some of them will be very significantly affected.''
Massachusetts: the speech impediment capital of the world.
That's Barcelona, but we'll give Mass a close second.
Bears repeating:
Our system of governance is largely voluntary and self policing. The Federal government through the entire series of crises has strained that agreement to the breaking point. If there seriously is a program to bailout the least deserving with the treasure of the rest there exists the distinct possibility of losing the "consent of the governed." That's not strongly worded faxes, that's armed guards at congressional district offices. Paulson is making a fatal mistake in thinking the general public will act in their ultimate best interest and pay up. The possibility of a general tax strike is something the system cannot survive and short of violence that appears to be the only tool left to taxpayers to get their attention. - 10.29.08 - 4:26 pm
The problem with punishing the guilty is that Barney Frank wants to be spanked.
PCA,
I don't know what you mean by "gaps on a 10 minute".
I'm looking at the chart on Yahoo finance... (USDJPY)... sorry for confusion.
Just another gullible, know-nothing piece of s**t that makes up our Congressional toilet bowl.
Pwease wend moaw dawllahs!
Pissed Off In California writes:
This must be why banks made such wise financial decisions over the last 7 years. You know because they know to the microscopic level exactly where all their money is and what is happening with it.
Don't kid yourself. Maybe the foreign banks got suckered but the domestic ones absolutely knew the outcome before they embarked on the policy.
They pointed a gun at their head to loot the state. How did they know it would work? They had one of their own making the decision to grant the bailout.
The gov does have a lever to stop exessive pay. For national banks or bank holding companies, the regulators (FDIC, etc.) could find the excessive pay to be an unsafe and unsound practice, issue a cease and disist order (probably wrong terminology), and start putting people in jail if not followed.
YLSP,
No problem. I'm not speaking with two mouths on my market observations. Check my homepage, but it on a 1-day, 10-minute, candle chart, you'll see 3 gaps at about 98.60, 98.30, 97.50.
Just a dysfuntional Goverment...I'm not buying any of this. As a numbers cruncher in a business all houses just don't catch fire at the same time, it is a premeditated philfering of The US Treasury.
This must be why banks made such wise financial decisions over the last 7 years. You know because they know to the microscopic level exactly where all their money is and what is happening with it.
Pissed Off In California | 10.31.08 - 11:32 am | #
They were caught up in the hoopla too. Then TSHTF they got scared.
Barney Frank is not an imbecile. He's a slime ball.
He knew exactly what the Act stated. He knew the money was without the strings we would want and the banks would not want.
He's being a slime ball politician and he's doing political cover.
quit crying about how to benefit from all this turmoil.
You can be bullish and bearish at the same time. With a deep out of the money three leg switchback options spread you can collect the delta regardless of market direction. If you see the implied volatilities converging on your synthetic you need only buy vega and hedge your near term theta risk. You can do this several different ways, including putting together a reverse infinity brass condor spread on VIX futures with a corresponding knock-out option write on the naked portion of your original synthetic reverse straddle. If that doesn't work just shoot yourself with a cheap dart gun and call it a day.
i cut/pasted that from linzdon's blog (i'm not that funny).
Rob Dawg,
Who's gonna guard the Congress-critters? I guess this is how the Army stationed here could be used... but still... am not sure if Army leaders are able to say they are upholding the Constitution by kicking out the Congress-critters through the will and consent of the people.
People still aren't angry enough though... as several others have seen. I have no idea why everyone is all "cool with" a 30% haircut in the stock market over a 30 day period. I'm rather pissed. It was a good thing I took a short-term loan against my 401(k) in September...
Nationalize Now!
How do we know which funds are used for lending?
Easy. Banks need to increase loans outstanding at least by the amount of money injected.
the regulators (FDIC, etc.) could find the excessive pay to be an unsafe and unsound practice, issue a cease and disist order
But most bonues are based on written contracts, not largesse. The government would be capriciously deciding that legal contracts don't have to be enforced; that's a precedent they don't want to set.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA That's a good one Barney.
The government would be capriciously deciding that legal contracts don't have to be enforced; that's a precedent they don't want to set.
Charles Kiting
This is nothing. Check the federal record, congressional record and the executive orders. Been there, done that, got the tee shirt.
Byzantine_Ruins writes:
"I am deeply disappointed that a number of financial institutions are distorting the legislation that Congress passed at the president's request to respond to the credit crisis by making funds available for increased lending," Rep. Barney Frank said in a statement.
Gee Barney, wonder who you've got to blame.
Probably whatever loser running the House Financial Services Committee let that piece of shit get ramrodded through Congress without adequate capital controls or mandated changes in leadership at the banks.
Wonder who that would be.
Oh wait, it's YOU Barney, it's YOU that's to blame.
SOMEONE please email to Bawney Fwank his interview with Bill O' on the Factor when Bill NAILED him as just that- being the man in charge while this scam unfolded. Fwank refused to accept any responsibility at all.
And you expect anything esle from a man that ran an illegal bordelo from his basement?
Bloomberg:
"Foreign-denominated loans helped fuel eastern European economies including Poland, Romania and Ukraine, funding home purchases and entrepreneurship after the region emerged from communism. The elimination of such lending is magnifying the global credit crunch and threatening to stall the expansion of some of Europe's fastest-growing economies...Plunging domestic currencies mean higher monthly payments for businesses and households repaying foreign-denominated loans, forcing them to scale back spending...In Kiev, Ukraine, Yuriy Voloshyn, who works at a real-estate company, says he's forgoing a new television because of his dollar-based mortgage. His monthly payments have risen by 18 percent, or 1,000 hryvnias ($167), since he took out the loan seven months ago."
At least American borrowers...never mind.
He's being a slime ball politician and he's doing political cover.
What a sorry state we have reached when claiming naive incompetence is safe cover. We see it again in this election. "As stupid as me" so "I don't feel bad about how stupid I am" is the best reason for picking a candidate for far too much of the country.
Barney is disappointed in the Banks?
As I read there have been 4.5 million foreclosures as of now, there are a projected 2 million more projected for 2009, there are 5 million notified of foreclosure and there are an estimated 12 million underwater.
How did all these millions of home owners get here?
It was not the variable rates, it wasnt the sub primes mortgages, thats the lie they want you to believe.
They all got in this position because the common thread is THAT THERE IS NO BANK REGULATION OF MORTGAGE LENDING for the wealthy and powerful banks. There is no oversight. There is no supervision. There are no federal consumer banking regulations. Banks operate with absolute impunity. Banks answer to NO ONE.
Barney Franks and his fellow Congress members reaped the benefits of unregulated mortgage lending by financial institutions for years. Congress has not passed any legislation to regulate or protect anyone. It all a show. Its a lie. This Congress is our worst nightmare.
The American public if they educate themselves will think twice before signing a document prepared by a bank for any mortgage loan. The American public has been warned by the Associated Press that the property appraisal business in this country with Congressional oversight is a myth. It looks like to buy a house is to serve the rich and powerful, because everybody wins but the home owner.
2 Trillion Dollars for the wealthy and powerful- Banks-Auto Manufacturers-Wall Street- Financial Brokers-Insurance Companies-Foreign Countries- BUT NOT ONE CENT
for the American homeowner.
Barney is disappointed? Barney and the other Congressional charlatans should be stripped of their assets in the same way that is done to the American public.
For all that read this piece who are against government regulation of our banks better enjoy where we are now and where we are going. Free Market with ruthless and aberrant behavior is gone. It has been replaced with government ownership.
Our future is going to be a long dark winter of more financial turmoil until the American Public gets angry enough to do something about it. We need to restrict the politician from owning his public office.
The Bankers killed the Golden Goose and Congress buried it.
If Barney is really disappointed, then he should choke on his own vomit since he passed the bailout.
Michael LittleBig
10-31-08
--
"Jas, Lets not go down Nazi lane this early in the morning."
nova,
Why do you feel this urge to tell me what to do and what not to do? I believe in telling the truth no matter how distasteful it maybe to some.
IF ONE WISHES TO LEARN FROM HISTORY ONE MUST DRAW THE CORRECT HISTORICAL PARALLELS!
Are you claiming that you know more about history and, therefore, my parallels don't apply?
Get a grip on yourself and your knowledge, please.
In general, educated born-and-bred American dopes suffer from the knowledge they dont posses!
Jas
Will someone for the life of me please buy some YEN YEN YEN. I am tired of this run up and implore people to buy some YEN. Do it for your country.
Whatev writes:
They were caught up in the hoopla too. Then TSHTF they got scared.
No sir / madame, I regret to inform you your Republic was the victim of a premeditated daylight robbery.
oh, and enjoy the next four years under the Messiah. Bawney Fwank and his pals are already having mutliple orgasms as they draft up numerous tax increase bills. If you don't see the increased taxes, government spending, government programs, and a complete transformation to the nanny state under a Obama, Pelosi, Reed controlled government, I got some swamp land to sell ya.
Breaking news!
Wachusett Mountain in Massachusetts
will be renamed in honor of Barney Franks visionary leadership.
From this point on it will be known as Broke Bank Mountain.
It's funny that at a time when some hedge funds are paralyzed by fear of de-leveraging, other hedge funds are finding ways to get their hands on all this new liquidity to re-leverage.
And, of course, the PPT undoubtedly is encouraging re-leveraging.
You can see all those same old liquidity crack trading patterns at work in today's market.
Does anyone know when "consumption" became part of the GDP? I've googled away and can't find a source showing it's inception.
Funny how a terminal disease tuberculosis/consumption is the terminology of the largest percentage of the current GDP. And that it's dying at an accelerated pace.
Get a grip on yourself and your knowledge, please.
In general, educated born-and-bred American dopes suffer from the knowledge they dont posses!
Jas
Jas Jain | 10.31.08 - 11:44 am
Thank you Jas. I needed that.
I told you children that "rock & roll" music would lead to problems but no, you had to "do your own thing".
YLSP writes:
Who's gonna guard the Congress-critters? I guess this is how the Army stationed here could be used...
I foresee across the board 20% pay cuts for municipal and State employees in California for the 90% that aren't laid off. I'd be worried more about them than I would the rabble.
## This is nothing. Check the federal record, congressional record and the executive orders. Been there, done that, got the tee shirt.
Business practices are one thing. Employment contracts are another. There's a lot of desire to break union contracts, too, so maybe something will get bargained.
bears gave up! Bulls win...
I foresee across the board 20% pay cuts for municipal and State employees in California for the 90% that aren't laid off. I'd be worried more about them than I would the rabble.
In that case you don't even need a tax revolt. Just one or two "acts of terror" by pissed of ex-employees of the state breaking (or just not maintaining) a water pipeline or electricity feeder line and SoCal is toast.
Kiting,
"Capriciously"? There is a finacial crisis, and the bank's have been given a gov bailout. Alternatively, withdraw gov support, let them go BK and then reorg.
"A Tax Strike is an AWESOME idea, but everyone would have to do it. I wonder how far the Feds would go to get their money?"
Only the top 25% of American earners pay 80% of federal income taxes. The other 75% would not be relevant.
This plan reminds me of the "everybody don't buy gas for one day and send a message to the oil companies" plan.
Pay today, or pay more tomorrow. The government, and the gas station will collect.
cd writes:
bears gave up! Bulls win...
.... retailer sector is showing the most strength - ironic isn't it ?
Baron Von Helmut III writes:
oh, and enjoy the next four years under the Messiah. Bawney Fwank and his pals are already having mutliple orgasms as they draft up numerous tax increase bills. If you don't see the increased taxes, government spending, government programs, and a complete transformation to the nanny state under a Obama, Pelosi, Reed controlled government, I got some swamp land to sell ya.
Uhh, genius, you already live in a morally and financially bankrupt police state. What, will the crony capitalism be WORSE? Give it a rest.
"bears gave up! Bulls win..."
Sorry that was 2 minutes and 100 points ago.
I just called a nice lady in Iceland. She said "It was a good time to be a tourist there. Not so good to be Icelandic." I asked her if they were running out of food but the food situation is fine.
She went on to tell me what did the country in "Buying Jeeps and new Apt's. that they could not afford" She said that the "shopping is great!"
Let's get on something resourceful, like each one needs to start their on (Bank)I mean Church. Probably except for weed in my County religion is the number one cash cow.
Within my County of 20k(twenty thousand) more than 200 churches open their doors each week, mostly owned by individuals, all tax exempt.
What happens to JPM if the chosen one gets elected and Dimon gets Treas Secretary job ?
bearly writes:
What happens to JPM if the chosen one gets elected and Dimon gets Treas Secretary job ?
JPM changes places with GS as the official lead vampire.
baron-
your diatribe neatly ignores the 'why' this has to happen. Putting blame on people who are given no choice to do so ignores who exacerbated the problem in the first place.
You should know better......
Ciao
MS
.... retailer sector is showing the most strength - ironic isn't it ?
popeye | 10.31.08 - 11:54 am
While CP markets were slow, investors probably foresaw a holiday without any inventory and total meltdown in retail. Now we have CP for inventory which means there is a possibility of surviving till next year.
Top tax rate: Senator Obama would raise the top individual tax rate back to 39.6 percent, impose an additional 2 to 4 percent tax on earnings for some over the existing Social Security wage cap, and bring back the phase-out of the personal exemption and certain itemized deductions for higher-income taxpayers. When added up, the top effective marginal tax rate rises by 12 to 14 percentage points, from 37.9 percent to roughly 48 to 50 percent. "High" is in the eye of the beholder, but these are tax rates not seen since before the Tax Reform Act of 1986.
Note: These calculations work as follows: (1) 37.9 percent equals the current 35 percent top income tax rate plus the current 2.9 percent Medicare tax rate; and (2) 48 to 50 percent equals Obama's 39.6 percent top income tax rate plus the 2.9 percent Medicare tax rate plus his additional 2-to-4 percent hike in the Social Security tax rate plus an additional roughly 4.5 percent for the phase-out of personal exemption and certain itemized deductions.
Senator Obama's plan would add $3.4 trillion to the government debt over the next ten years.
The Obama plan would still increase the top estate tax rate to 45 percent and set the exemption at $3.5 million per person ($7 million for couples). This third layer of tax on capital income detracts from economic growth. It adds an equivalent of another 5 to 10 percent tax on capital, in addition to the corporate tax and the investor level taxes on capital and dividends.
Senator Obama would set the top tax rates on dividends and capital gains at the same rate, but proposes to increase the top rate to 20 percent
For a married family, filing jointly and earning $75,000 a year, this increase will be $3,074. For those making just $50,000, this increase will be $1,512. Despite Senator Obama's claim, even struggling American families making just $25,000 a year will see a tax increase -- they'll pay $715 more in 2010 than they did in 2007. Across the board, when the tax cuts lapse, working Americans will see significant increases in their taxes, even if their household income is as low as $25,000
Check this for yourself. Go to Forms and Publications and pull up the 1040 instructions for 2000 and 2007 and go to the tax tables. Based on your 2007 income, check your taxes rates for 2000 and 2007, and apply them to your taxable income for 2007. In 2000 -- Senator Obama's benchmark year -- you would have paid significantly more taxes for the income you earned in 2007. The Bush Tax Cuts, which Senator Obama has said he will allow to lapse, saved you money, and without those cuts, your taxes will go back up to the 2000 level. Senator Obama doesn't call it a "tax increase," but your taxes under "President" Obama will increase -- significantly
Bawney Fwank is pewpwexed.
He threw money at a problem, why didn't it just go away?
Brontide,
excellent point
We need a 12 month dividend moratorium and share buybacks. The quicker the banks are OVER-capitalized, the quicker they begin lending agai
[JPM changes places with GS as the official lead vampire]
Bingo!
Just can't every satisfy a zombie banker up, no matter how much money you feed 'em ...
Video:
zombieBanker
Baron Von Helmut III writes:
and a complete transformation to the nanny state under a Obama, Pelosi, Reed controlled government...
Bush demanded congress and went on teevee to tell the people we must bailout the banks. Congress vetoed the first time. At Bush's direction the senate then hollowed out an old bill created the current giveaway and sent it back to the House of Reps. Paulson, a bush appointee went on BENDED KNEE to Pelosi begging to pass it.
We all are living in the bush nanny state of privatized profits and socialized risk.
I'm not voting for Obama, but I'm fine with his tax policies. It is clear that the deficit and debt is the biggest problem facing the country, and it is not going to go away by just cutting spending and praying for growth.
Not a happy taxpayer writes:
Top tax rate: Senator Obama would raise the top individual tax rate back to 39.6 percent, impose an additional 2 to 4 percent tax on earnings for some over the existing Social Security wage cap, and bring back the phase-out of the personal exemption and certain itemized deductions for higher-income taxpayers. When added up, the top effective marginal tax rate rises by 12 to 14 percentage points, from 37.9 percent to roughly 48 to 50 percent. "High" is in the eye of the beholder, but these are tax rates not seen since before the Tax Reform Act of 1986.
Rome never looks where she treads.
Always her heavy hooves fall
On our stomachs, our hearts or our heads;
And Rome never heeds when we bawl.
Her sentries pass on -- that is all,
And we gather behind them in hordes,
And plot to reconquer the Wall,
With only our tongues for our swords.
We are the Little Folk -- we!
Too little to love or to hate.
Leave us alone and you'll see
How we can drag down the State!
Brontide,
Additional support for your point: PMR +3.53% RTH +2.61%
Business practices are one thing. Employment contracts are another.
Charles Kiting
I dunno, a deal's a deal. A contract is a contract. It all goes back to the Magna Carta, and once the camel's nose went under the tent.....
This is pretty easy, really. If a company needed to borrow money through the bailout plan, they should not have had the money lying around for bonuses and dividends. If you have money, but are unwilling to use it to continue running your business, then screw you. Get out of the Treasury. The problem these companies had that required the bailout was not enough cash on hand. Yet the keep looking for ways to give it away. WTF?
Fungible doesn't even play into it. No bonuses, no dividends until the company is healthy enough to start paying the taxpayers back should be a condition for getting help.
Barney Frank is just about universally recognized as among the brightest people on Capitol Hill. Disagreeing with him, or supporting a party to which Frank does not belong, doesn't make a really smart guy an imbecile.
Frank is probably going to argue legislative intent. He will drag Diamond and his buds up to the Hill for hearings to make his point, ask them if they didn't notice when Congress and Treasury discussed this whole bail out thingie and said it was a good idea because it would lead to lending. When we hear from bank chiefs that they don't want to use any of the money for lending, that all of it is for acquisitions and internal happy-happy, it's no surprise Frank is cranky. He, too, understands that money is fungible, but wholesale refusal to lend is too much. I doubt he really cares whether the argument can be made from the legislative text that banks can do what the want with the money. His alternative at this point is to sit back and let them do whatever they want with the money. Barney doesn't usually sit back.
In the end, this is about power. Frank handed them money. He wants them to lend. His guy is gonna be president, and appoint the next Treasury Secretary. He is going to remain as Chairman of House Finance. He knows Congress has been a wet hanky for years, and is going to try to change that. Welcome to the new Washington.
Emp writes:
It is clear that the deficit and debt is the biggest problem facing the country, and it is not going to go away by just cutting spending and praying for growth.
Our country has a problem no matter who gets elected. Taxes are going up [period]
MS,
Don't place me in the same boat as Bush & Co. They are no better than Fwank.
Surely you aren't arguing the only choice left is to raise the taxes on the ones that played by the rules? There isn't one politician that is talking about prosecuting Mozillo, Perry, Fuld, or any of these politicians that turned a blind eye or worse- got sweetheart loans or deals. Both parties are corrupt. And for the record, I voted for Paul.
"Business practices are one thing. Employment contracts are another.
Charles Kiting
I dunno, a deal's a deal. A contract is a contract. It all goes back to the Magna Carta, and once the camel's nose went under the tent....."
Well how about two choices then.
1) Take the TARP money and no dividends and drastic bonus cuts.
or
2) Don't take the TARP money and go BK which also equals no dividends and a "renegotiation" of your employment contract via unemployment.
"War: presidents fault
Preparedness for weather: presidents fault
Economy: presidents fault
Congratulations on next week's election. Please remember in 2010 - when you are president you are in complete control."
That's easy. A ticket with Jeff Skilling (ENRON) and his brother Tom Skilling (WGN/Tribune) could handle all that better than what we have now.
market call has just been issued on Financialtraders blog. This guy ' calls are amazing.
Call is to take profits from last friday and Monday long calls, and to start going short with half normal size
with nasdaq 100 at 1340.
Stock Trading | Forex | Financial Markets: Stock price prediction: NDX qqqq NQ Trading (october 31, 2008)
Baron-
may be that would have gone better with the original post???
Instead the original looks exactly what you protest...
Ciao
MS
Can we just socialize the winnings of Buffet & Soros already ?
Disgust is appropriate. You either nationalize a large bank and use it to lend or you have lending requirements. To nationalize you force an IPO to be issued to give the gov't a controlling interest. Many other ways as well. Frank and Dodd are owneed by Finance/Realestate/Insurance what do you expect. Just look at campaign contributions.
did someone post this already?
Troubled Fund Begins Payouts - NY Times
so the Reserve fund regrets the inconvenience of paying only half of its fund holders 1/2 of their cash
and then states it will be happy to pay more once they get more cash? more cash? wasn't this a money market fund?
man, I'm goingt o start sounding like Jas
crooks
Can't a brother buy some YEN I say. Come on now hand over fist buy some YEN. Do it for your country as it is your patriotic duty.
Anonymous | 10.31.08 - 12:09 pm,
Took my Q's short off from yesterday this a.m. The markets are churning with such light volume that immediate direction is difficult to access. However, what I'm waiting for is the hourly high from last Tuesday on SPY & Q's to get tested and rejected on lighter volume. The highs and lows from last Tuesday absolutely will get tested at some point. And the USD/YEN has a big gap at 97.50 from earlier today, so that could be bearish.
MS,
My bad. I'm simply in total disgust at the entire situation.
Playing by the rules means nothing.
Nostrovia.
Monta--I have been worrying about those people.
That is horrible.
Our country has a problem no matter who gets elected. Taxes are going up [period]
popeye | 10.31.08 - 12:07 pm | #
Right--and that is fine.
What is not fine, however is that with Obama the sheeple are getting their wool pulled over their eyes.
"What is not fine, however is that with Obama the sheeple are getting their wool pulled over their eyes."
We are having the wool pulled over our eyes REGARDLESS of who gets elected.
Get a clue!
Jas is right about born and bred dopes..
But money is fungible, so how do we tell which funds are being used for which purpose?
SCO could teach lessons on how money is only fungible when someone owes it to you. When you owe Novell, money is completely not fungible.
Bloomberg:
"The government needs to take action, said Kim Rodriguez, who leads accounting firm Grant Thornton's automotive restructuring group in Southfield, Michigan. "Chrysler as we know it will cease to exist very soon," she told reporters at a briefing yesterday."
This person would seem to be in a position to know Chrysler's situation. Not that the govt should do anything. Let the company go bankrupt.
Re: "But money is fungible, so how do we tell which funds are being used for which purpose?"
Many newer chemistry and biology analytical instruments can detect particles in the parts per quadrillion range, thus the engineering capabilities of a supercomputing Fed/Treasury must have the ability to separate the shit waste from the less toxic cash. This is a matter of audits and accountability which is the main issue of this crash and this was the main reason people didn't want TARP to be used to bailout crooks, i.e, without accountability or detection, trillions in tax payer revenues will go to golf resorts, facial fantasies, sales conventions in Bermuda, tasty snacks, drugs, booze, chicks, young pages, and the on-going trough of discretionary abuse that can be traced back to these pirates. The Fed is now a partner in non-accountability and they are unwilling to regulate and perform audits!
In regard to the concept of fungibility, Bear Stearns is now co-mingled into a trust that has zero accountability, so now that we have so many examples of bailouts versus bankrupt entities, the distinction of mark-to-market value will be like finding baby powder in a bag of cocaine -- and as with chemical spills and toxic waste, The Fed has a policy that says, the solution to pollution is dilution. There is no reason to bailout crooks!
FYI: The High-Resolution ICP-MS offered by EAI is the VG AXIOM high-resolution system that is capable of providing higher sensitivities along with higher mass resolutions. Limits of detection are in the parts-per-trillion and parts-per-quadrillion (ppq) ranges.
Can someone explain why the homebuilders are up today?
"In the end, this is about power. Frank handed them money. He wants them to lend."
The point is, that if you want them to lend, you don't just "hand them the money". Who do they lend to? If there are so many good borrowers out there, I would expect a stampede of private investors to be already doing it.
Having more money available to lend doesn't magically make bad credit risk borrowers become good credit risk borrowers...especially in a declining economy.
mr. beach,
Buy house, free pony???
If they wanted the money lent out why not do it directly instead of giving it to the banks. Something smells.
Mr. Beach, because Mr. Hovanian was quoted in that article about foreclosure relief yesterday and FHA is buying DEEP...580 and income equals a free throw now..
He stated this needs to happen for us to sell homes...
"Chrysler as we know it will cease to exist very soon,"
What's wrong with that?
I asked her if Iceland were running out of food but the food situation is fine
Of course it's fine. That's why they're encouraging tourists to come, bud. It's a one-way trip.
I see a horror movie in the making...
"Icelandic"
so is PCA...still in the forecasting biz...roflmao
Barney Frank is so last century!
I say, "Then GO!"
Go become a CFO.
Go overseas.
Start up Hedgie - lets see how that works for ya.
I am done paying this kind of money for people who are bad at their jobs but who claim they are good at their jobs. Go Get another job, because you sure as heck are not going to continue making 7 figure bonuses for bringing us to the doorstep of a depression.
bearly writes:
What happens to JPM if the chosen one gets elected and Dimon gets Treas Secretary job ?
JPM changes places with GS as the official lead vampire.
Byzantine_Ruins | Homepage | 10.31.08 - 11:57 am | #
Since its Halloween, brings to mind a tune...
"Let's do the time warp again..."
Tax increases are inevitable after Bush's 6 trillion dollar borrowing binge. Avoiding them is like avoiding the recession or the drop in house prices. If you wanted taxes to stay low you should have opposed Bush's tax cuts; every penny he cut was a penny we didn't have and it's all going to have to get clawed back, with interest, in the end. Face reality, folks.
"Nemo" These funds are made for lending
That's "just" what they're gonna do
And someday these funds are gonna lend all over you
Ha, Ha, Ha!!!! That is hilarious!!!
And I don't recall that provision (bailout, er, I mean "rescue" money only being for lending actually being in the law - can somebody cite the chapter?)
It's all bullshit now!
FYI: The act of "money laundering" was not invented during the Prohibition era in the United States, but many techniques were developed and refined then. Many methods were devised to disguise the origins of money generated by the sale of then-illegal alcoholic beverages. Following Al Capone's 1931 conviction for tax evasion, mobster Meyer Lansky transferred funds from Florida "carpet joints" (small casinos) to accounts overseas. After the 1934 Swiss Banking Act, which created the principle of bank secrecy, Meyer Lansky bought a Swiss bank to which he would transfer his illegal funds through a complex system of shell companies, holding companies, and offshore accounts.
The Bank Secrecy Act of 1970 requires banks to report cash transactions of $10,000.01 or more. The Money Laundering Control Act of 1986 further defined money laundering as a federal crime. The USA PATRIOT Act of 2001 expanded the scope of prior laws to more types of financial institutions, added a focus on terrorist financing, and specified that financial institutions take specific actions to "know your customer" (KYC).
Look --
I opposed the bailout. Probably 95% of us did. But I also respect the opinion of people like Paul Krugman who said that something had to be passed or there would have been complete systemic meltdown.
I know, I know -- that could happen anyway.
But I watched the hearings. Barney Frank and the democrats WERE talking about limiting executive bonuses during those hearings. They were -- I heard them say it. So to argue that Frank is being hypocritical just isn't fair.
What I did hear was Secretary Paulson saying repeatedly, AGAIN AND AGAIN, that the bill must be passed with as few restrictions as possible to encourage banks to actually use the money. That was Paulson's stated objective.
It was up to the house Democrats to try to build in as many protections as they could within that framework.
Blaming everything on Barney Frank just seems like revisionist history to me.
Byzantine_Ruins writes:
bearly writes:
What happens to JPM if the chosen one gets elected and Dimon gets Treas Secretary job ?
JPM changes places with GS as the official lead vampire.
Byzantine_Ruins | Homepage | 10.31.08 - 11:57 am | #
Nice snark, but made with a guilt by association point of view.
You might think so, but I have my doubts. JD spends an incredible amount of time managing risk, and he knows how to make smart plays (how else do you explain BS/WAMU).
He plays to win for the org he manages (B1 / JPM). If he gets to the treas - it will only be for a couple of years, and he'll play that to win for the company (the USA). The thing about JD is that he values his reputation - above all else - - kind of like a TWoods of banking - doesn't need the money - he wants to trophies.
k harris,
"Barney Frank is just about universally recognized as among the brightest people on Capitol Hill."
Chrissake, that's like standing a drooling moron next to a pile of rocks and saying the drooling moron is smarter than the rocks. (Guy claimed not to know his live in male prostitute was running a brothel in his basement).
KNURD!
Nostrovia,
"Odds that Wall Street will forgo payouts are ``slim to none,'' John Gutfreund, 79, president of New York-based Gutfreund & Co. and the former chief executive officer of Salomon Brothers Inc., said yesterday.
ABA member banks are concerned they run the risk of being labeled -- falsely --as needing government support, or of appearing to be asking for a handout,'' Yingling wrote.This is not a program the banking industry sought.''
So the banks didn't want the money, but took it anyway, and are using the money to pay bonuses and such, because Paulson and congress forced them to?
Where the hell is all the redemption activity ?
I completely agree with Fair Economist's point above.
there would have been complete systemic meltdown
Hel-lo? There's already been systemic meltdown! You must have missed that 3-minute special report on teevee.
What really annoys me the most that history books are already being written to show it was "derivatives" or "obama's election" or "tax cuts" when it's exactly what it was in 1929.
TOO
MUCH.
DEBT.
HOW HARD IS THAT TO SAY?
Say it with me.
TOO.
MUCH.
DEBT.
The thing was toast no matter what.
"o sir / madame, I regret to inform you your Republic was the victim of a premeditated daylight robbery"
I'm still holding out for the theory that a rogue gaggle of oxford dons gamed this whole thing out long ago. Why? They saw a problem with the world they thought they could fix: lack of a level playing field. (btw I thought Oxford was ground zero for speach impediments)
Banks borrow record amount from Fed
How the F&*k is that go for J6P? Where is that borrowing going? Is it arbitrage type of borrowing until the economy upticks?
k harris,
"Barney Frank is just about universally recognized as among the brightest people on Capitol Hill."
Thanks. I need a new keyboard now after spitting out my drink all over it.
Franks is a great example of a pot calling the kettle black or a hot young page calling wolf. Franks will be the first one to take a holiday leave in Bermuda with funding from a lobby group which will provide him with cash, drugs, sex, snacks and all the peccadillos necessary to help make him a better member of the fascist group whose arm band he wears.
The American bred & born dopes are getting even. It's a new age and new revolt.
Step 1: Stop the flood of imports, stay at home. Translates to less consumption of goods, services, and energy. No consumption poses declines in tax revenue. US importers; China, Japan, and Germany are in a panic.
Step 2: No contributions to 401k and IRA's. Screw Wall Street Casino conmen
Step 3:Stop paying mortgages, cc's, RE taxes. No more refinancing or HELOCS.
Step 4: Walk away from debt. Goobermint and banks never thought in their wild dreams that the indentured servants would walk outta their overpriced hovels when ARM's had reset. Banks thought they cornered the consumer with the bankruptcy law on cc's.
Step 5: Pay cash, no cc's.
Voodoo economics has backfired. Dirty dog has come back to bite the masters in the ass.
Kona Cookie: did you see my link to the Max Baer jr. gangster story?
Baron Von Helmut III writes:
"Odds that Wall Street will forgo payouts are ``slim to none,''
That's likely true - the peons won't get bonuses - likely they'll sacrifice their own to pay the bonuses.
And, again, the 'loan the money' argument is idiotic and echoes the ACORN mentality of 'loan money to those who can't afford to repay'. This is why we are in the mess we are currently in.
The banks will loan the money - to those who can repay the money. Just because its not happening this week, doesn't mean it won't start happening next week.
Folks, if what you want to do is vent spleen, well, enjoy that. If you want to understand how the big kids do stuff, this "oooooooo, he's so stupid" stuff ain't gonna get you there.
You will, in a few minutes, be able to read on Reuters that JPM is going to modify $110 bln in mortgages, and hold up on foreclosures while that process is underway. Right after the conference call in which Diamond said not one penney of the TARP money would go for new lending and Frank blew a gasket. Bad move by Diamond. Frank called him on it. Diamond is rewriting a boatload of mortgages. Any questions?
Barney Fwank writes:
Pwease wend moaw dawllahs!
Barney Fwank | 10.31.08 - 11:36 am | #
LOL!!!!
We are having the wool pulled over our eyes REGARDLESS of who gets elected.
Get a clue!
Jas is right about born and bred dopes..
Pissed Off In California | 10.31.08 - 12:21 pm | #
I will admit to my share of dopishness and I am as cynical as they come. I guess what I should have said is that I feel bad for the people who really, really do not have a clue and believe the bs.
But, hey, maybe they will not even notice they were scammed and we all know that ignorance is bliss.
And before you get your panties/boxers in a wad, this goes for both parties!
We need a better plan.
Just wondering who I dislike more; the large banks or Barney Frank?
Dear Barney
You stupid bastard, Hanky put a big fat one right in your shute and you held your cheeks wide open.
As a taxpayer if you think you clowns are going to take money out of my right pocket and give it to these theives so I can borrow it back and pay them intrest to borrow my own damn money fou are full of crap. Think I'll just sit on my ass, cut my income to the bone and enjoy life. It's a great time to be a bum.
UB,
I did not, so lease tell me where to go.
I'm search for bitter words, which I have not used before, but I will prevail.
There's two separate issues here.
The first is lending out the pile they were handed. Forcing them to do so is probably not the best idea, though as we all know, bankers tend to over-react during downturns and decline even good prospects.
The second is using the pile for something other than lending. Paying out bonuses is preposterous. The companies aren't doing well, or they wouldn't be taking these capital infusions and writing down billions of dollars of loans. And the sob stories about secretaries being punished and not receiving their 30K bonuses are irrelevant. Nearly every American is going to have higher taxes and a lower standard of living because of Wall Street stupidity. We're all going to be suffering for years, and I don't see why bank secretaries should suffer substantially less.
Using the money for M&A is stupid in a lot of cases because of the TBTF problem. (Some mergers of smaller institutions might be ok as long as nobody receives bonuses or premiums from the moves.)
If the capital just sat on bank balance sheets for a while, that would be tolerable to me if it reduces the perception of widespread counterparty risk.
If we were completely screwed no matter what, then it's silly to get so angry at Barney Frank.
I think that was my original point.
Broward Horne,
The problem is that the extent of that debt was exponentially increased by the extent of leverage that was permitted as the result of deregulation and the shadow banking system. The free market got greedy - that's the excessive debt that is the systemic crisis.
If congress bails out underwater mortgage holders, do they have to buy a bigger house?
Or do they just have to get a second mortgage?
If they bail out car makers, can I still buy a Toyota?
Would GM still be able to lay off workers?
I am not sure I understand all the new rules of the Fatherland..
If they bail out cigarette makers, can we go back to smoking in public places?
If they bail out insurers, and my wife shoots me for the money, would she get it?
If they bail out Nike, will I jump higher in my Air Jordans?
If they bail out musical chair players, do they have to take one away? Can't all the chairs stay?
And before you get your panties/boxers in a wad, this goes for both parties!
We need a better plan.
wrote Whatev
We have the better plan - we just don't have politicians with the balls / boobs to do it.
So much for $50 billion a month, at this rate they should be out of TARP funds in what, another week?
Misean wrote: Guy claimed not to know his live in male prostitute was running a brothel in his basement
Is there any truth to this?
TIA?
Chicago PMI fell from 56.7 in September to 37.8 in October, far exceeding expectations for a fall to 48.0.
Kind of explains the manufacturing carnage I've heard is happening in rural IL.
Link
"The PMI data, particularly the declining employment trends and the huge falls in production output and order backlogs, are "deep recession readings," said High Frequency Economics' Ian Shepherdson. The "horrific" results, he said, make it clear that the Chicago PMI has been pole-axed by the meltdown in the financial system.""
Bernanke speaking soon. Get ready for the SELLING!
It's Jamie Dimon, not Diamond.
You'll give him an even bigger head than he already has.
Kona: He's down below in the do-decabox
Complete L.A. Noir -- latimes.com
Frank is a bright guy - he knows exactly what the legislation did or did not require - this "misunderstanding of intent" is a tool that will be used in the next session to add more "initiatives" to the pile.
Politics as usual.
But I watched the hearings. Barney Frank and the democrats WERE talking about limiting executive bonuses during those hearings. They were -- I heard them say it. So to argue that Frank is being hypocritical just isn't fair.
Sure - they were talking about it and there are even provisions in the bill with some of the restrictions they were talking about. But, many restrictions were "compromised" out and there are also loopholes which effectively avoid those that did make it in. This was relatively public knowledge - some Congressmen even mentioned it in their discussions of the bill. It's Frank's responsibility to make sure the bill actually does what it's supposed to do, and he blew it.
bearly writes:
Bernanke speaking soon. Get ready for the SELLING
.... better tell the boys trading the SSO; it's still more than 4 x the spx.
doc holiday writes:
Franks is a great example of zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
I think Congress just found "a flaw in the model".
"It's Jamie Dimon, not Diamond."
Could it be that the whole greek explanation for his name is made up and that it was originally "Dimone"?
Not that Greeks can't be sleezeballs from time to time as well, but...
"so how do we tell which funds are being used for which purpose?"
Guess they should of thought about that to begin with. But no, couldn't do that, what with a gun to their heads and threats of "this sucker is going down". Just another terrorizing rerun. Act in haste, then realize just how bad those decisions turned out to really be, now posture for the constituency.
Heard on either CNBC or Bloomberg that part of the money that they want to give in bonuses are bonuses from years ago that executives deferred to help with their taxes, etc...
All I have to say about that is tough shit. I lost a boatload of money, they can lose a boatload of money.
More "Oh %^&&!" numbers on the A2/P2 spread - 472 basis points
, another all-time high. For comparison, it was 150 in the 73-75 recession, so the upcoming recession is predicted to be 3 times as bad. (the spread is roughly a measure of bankruptcy risk in medium-credit-risk companies).
All I have to say about that is tough shit. I lost a boatload of money, they can lose a boatload of money.
Whatev
I concur...
The big banks would likely target acquisitions with solid loan portfolios; ones that didn't do much or any funny lending. Then, the big bank might go bankrupt anyway, taking out a sound and responsible lender with it.
Paulson's probably wondering what's wrong with that.
Kind of explains the manufacturing carnage I've heard is happening in rural IL.
Isn't just Illinois - and it isn't just automotive either. Its spreading and this should come as no surprise considering how tight funding is - who is going to stick out their neck if the end consumer (here OR abroad) can't fund at the end of the pipeline?
The whole supply chain is becoming constipated.
PeakVT writes:
There's two separate issues here.
The first is lending out the pile they were handed. Forcing them to do so is probably not the best idea, though as we all know, bankers tend to over-react during downturns and decline even good prospects.
The second is using the pile for something other than lending. Paying out bonuses is preposterous. The companies aren't doing well, or they wouldn't be taking these capital infusions and writing down billions of dollars of loans. And the sob stories about secretaries being punished and not receiving their 30K bonuses are irrelevant. Nearly every American is going to have higher taxes and a lower standard of living because of Wall Street stupidity. We're all going to be suffering for years, and I don't see why bank secretaries should suffer substantially less.
If the capital just sat on bank balance sheets for a while, that would be tolerable to me if it reduces the perception of widespread counterparty risk.
Exactly. To argue otherwise is like encouraging the same behavior you just spanked thier backsides for one minute earlier while the cheeks are still stinging.
The whole supply chain is becoming constipated.
dryfly | 10.31.08 - 12:47 pm | #
Cue consumer stimulus check stage left... quick quick quick
You friggin' even altered the legislation by recording into testimony that "impaired assets" included buying stock.
Douche!
Knurd!
Nostrovia,
Corpse Misean is Dope | 10.31.08 - 11:03 am | #
Including buying stock as part of the impaired assets was far and away the best part of the package. I just wish that a) all of the funds weere used for that and 2) we had someone negotiating the terms of buying said stakes in the banks that actually gave a shit about the taxpayers, on who's behalf he was supposed to be working.
ades writes:
All I have to say about that is tough shit. I lost a boatload of money, they can lose a boatload of money.
Whatev
I concur...
Ditto.
FAIR,
Thanks for the A2/P2 update.
Its spreading and this should come as no surprise considering how tight funding is.... dryfly
You mean to tell me things spread? I dont believe it...
Popeye, sso and sds have close times different from the sp500. So if there are large last minute changes then the next day they won't necessarily track as 2x up and down. There really isn't a discrepancy.
"Chrysler as we know it will cease to exist very soon,"
Same game, different year. 1979 bailout. Chrysler fails again in 29 years and we should bail it out again?
1983 heritage foundation article: In the case of the Chrysler bail-out, a big chunk of taxpayer money was committed to a shaky and inappropriate venture. Every American became an involuntary and uncompensated partner in a company whose future is still in doubt. The precedent established is extremely dangerous. On top of this, the bail-out even failed in its purpose."
Sol writes:
"so how do we tell which funds are being used for which purpose?"
It doesn't matter. The TRAP funds could be totally walled off and hermetically sealed - WSt is still going to pay bonuses - most likely by sacrificing their pawns and using their salaries.
barney frank shouldnt even be allowed in congress anymore nevermind the finance committee.
Watching the Dow this morning feels like watching a man standing on the rails of a bridge.
Anyone else think they are in the back room watching the indicators proclaiming to themselves.
"Inconceivable!"
The country is in the worst fiancial crisis in its history. If the bank execs will not volunarily take a pay cut force it. One perp walk in prison orange would do wonders IMO.
Wow. "Funging the Funds". Never saw this coming! Paulson must be aghast.
UB,
I was hoping to see an editorial from you there as well, but that is a good ol story. The machine gun reminds me of The Paulson Bazooka and the gun reminds me of the gun Bernanke and Friends held to the heads of The Senate & Congress and the blood stain reminds me of taxpayer revenues flowing into the gutter, back to the well.
Reformed Dope Brontide writes:
"Inconceivable!"
"This word you use. I do not think it means what you think it means."
LMAO
Speaking of not spending money that we don't have.
Barney Frank also suggested that we should cut 25% of our defense spending...
And McCain is attacking him for it.
Who's the conservative?
We have the better plan - we just don't have politicians with the balls / boobs to do it.
JoGa | 10.31.08 - 12:42 pm | #
Very true.
Wells Fargo Jumbo Loans Amounts that exceed conforming limits:
Int APR
30-Year Fixed 9.875% 10.061%
15-Year Fixed 9.250% 9.520%
10-Year ARM 9.625% 8.601%
5-Year ARM 7.875% 6.610%
JPM undertaking a "significant mortgage modification program". Holding off on pushing loans into foreclosure until the program is in place.
You gotta watch Bill O'Reilly drill Barney Fudd.
YouTube - O'Reilly Blasts Barney Frank On Fannie Mae Mess!!
This is classic.
But money is fungible, so how do we tell which funds are being used for which purpose?
Hold on there a second, this is NOT money, it is a loan ..... hello, do any of you claim the balance of your mortgage as income?
Banks seem to think this loan is a HELOC and we kinda know how the MEW-thing works...
Wells Fargo Jumbo Loans
But Bush tole them to lend! Maybe they're economic terrrists.
_
Y.T. writes:
Popeye, sso and sds have close times different from the sp500. So if there are large last minute changes then the next day they won't necessarily track as 2x up and down. There really isn't a discrepancy.
Y.T.,
Thanks. I've been watching that relationship and getting mixed results.
Can you suggest where I might find a more detailed explanation of sso, sds and sp500 ?
dryfly,
What do you think the fate is of the giant warehouse/distrib centers that went up in rural areas over the past decade or so.
Thinking specifically of Lowe's/Home Depot type affairs.
They--along with ethanol--were hailed as saviors of the economy.
1000s of apps for 100s of jobs.
You gotta watch Bill O'Reilly drill Barney Fudd.
Is this porno?
Whatev writes:
You gotta watch Bill O'Reilly drill Barney Fudd.
I could live to be 100 and not need to see that.
Hi-5 Kona.
Corpse Misean is Dope writes:
Yeah and Santa is going to bring everyone a squirrel and a pony for Christmas.
Take squirrel back please:
Page Not Found
And more "Oh #$%$" numbers - Baltic Dry down 4% in one day to 851
. I don't have historical numbers, but based on graphs and blog comments, on an inflation-adjusted basis this is below the 750-800 low in 2001 and the 500 low back into the 80's. At this point BDI should level off because the cost of renting a ship is falling below even operating costs. Soon further declines in shipping will idle and mothball ships rather than lower the BDI. We actually won't even know how bad things are getting, at least by looking at price indicators.
Oh, and the 4% in one day is actually rather mild - we've had several days down >6% lately.
We have the better plan - we just don't have politicians with the balls / boobs to do it.
Oh, I am sure that there are people who would do it. It just so happens that nobody wants to vote for them.
A people gets the government it deserves.
You gotta watch Bill O'Reilly drill Barney Fudd.
O'Reilly is, as usual, full of it. His complaint is that Frank resisted restrictions on Fannie and Freddie. But, since Fannie and Freddie had only 1/7 the default rate of true private lenders, O'Reilly's way would have made things even worse and Frank's would have made it better.
Only in government do people really believe that certain 'monies' are earmarked only for certain expenses.
Anybody else: if a bailout check comes in and a bonus goes out, the connection is obvious.
"What do you think the fate is of the giant warehouse/distrib centers that went up in rural areas over the past decade or so."
There were millions of square feet that went up on spec that were never occupied. If you go back into the records you might find many cases where special bond issues made quite sure the developers had little risk. Strangely enough the construction people made money on them though.
Ok, come on, what about a HELOC & MEW as it relates to TARP?
Re:
Mr. Bernanke responded: Our sense and this so far seems to be borne out by the data is that consumers respond to changes in the value of their home essentially because theres a change in their wealth, not because theres a change in their access to liquid assets.
Bernanke Rains on Theory of Houses as ATMs - Real Time Economics - WSJ
Speaking of not spending money that we don't have.
Barney Frank also suggested that we should cut 25% of our defense spending...
That's going to seem like a wild warmonger position in a year or two when we have to cut half a trillion - or more - out of the federal budget.
ew thread.
"Think I'll just sit on my ass, cut my income to the bone and enjoy life. It's a great time to be a bum."
Anonymous | 10.31.08 - 12:39 pm | #
My plan...
Cut all my overtime out.
Max my 401k at 50%.
Take some time off w/o pay.
This should greatly reduce my taxes.
Then crank up the side cash biz...
I don't think the .gov realises how much tax rolls can drop off...
Popeye, Here is a link to a description of the tracking issue and also volatility issues.
Y.T.
Thank you very much.
At this point BDI should level off because the cost of renting a ship is falling below even operating costs. Soon further declines in shipping will idle and mothball ships rather than lower the BDI.
This and the news recently about the kidnapped scrap metal exec is just getting waaay too strange. Global trade collapse? Maybe not so wacky, after all. That lends a lot of weight to the comment I heard here recently about China's "Over-Capacity Armageddon".
FairEcon " O'Reilly's way would have made things even worse and Frank's would have made it better."
That's hysterical. Encouraging F&F to take on more risky loans at the exact time home prices began cratering parabolically to try and prop up the market & increasing leverage was the absolute best recipe for accelerating disaster.
There were Congressmen on both sides of the aisle pushing for a better (at least in the sense of not profoundly corrupt) bailout. They were even the majority in the House. But the leadership (on both sides, and including both Presidential candidates) arm-twisted enough into passing it.
Incidentally, a great predictor of votes on the bailout bill was contributions from the financial industry. If you want to stop this kind of thing, have public financing of campaigns. That one 700 billion bailout could probably have paid for every federal campaign for all time.
"SAN DIEGO, Oct 29 (Reuters) - The pension fund of San Diego, California, may have lost as much as $1 billion of its $5 billion in assets recently, potentially adding to the financial challenges weighing on the state's second-largest city.
According to San Diego City Attorney Michael Aguirre, San Diego's city pension fund for nearly 20,000 active and retired employees has lost at least $700 million between Dec. 30, 2007, and Sept. 30 -- before the worst of the stock market's recent crash."
You CA residents are so hosed...
Thanks for the statistical updates Fair Economist!
Bankers who take Caribbean vacations with the proceeds of their TARP-HELOC are unlikely to hold higher reserves for loan losses!
Kung Fu Panda: California will never be hosed. As the economy crumbles, rich people from all over will move to California. Everyone wants to live here, and now they can!
Have I mentioned our weather?
jmay writes:
Speaking of not spending money that we don't have.
Barney Frank also suggested that we should cut 25% of our defense spending...
And McCain is attacking him for it.
Who's the conservative?
Please.......cutting our defense budget is now conservative? As usual, that's the only place Fwank can see to cut. No waste in the thousands of other government programs.
Yeah, Fwank is a champion of conservative spending. Representing the home of the 15 billion BIG DIG.
On top of this, the bail-out even failed in its purpose.
Huh? The Federal government made (a relatively small amount of) money on the original C bailout. Iacocca had a plan and it worked. Chrysler was profitable for many years. Just because three business cycles and two changes of ownership later C is on the ropes again doesn't mean the 1979 loan guarantees didn't work.
HOW SMOOTH IS EVIL
How smooth is evil, how uncanny in its mimicry
Which can dispense philanthropy and sympathy,
Pronounce full and sufficient orthodoxy,
Display its pious courtesy, gentility
But if there is no continence of will,
No sacrifice of appetite, that it be stilled,
Then every outward charity infects and kills -
No loving is that is an exercise in skill
The outward drape of inner base intent
Impoverished and soiled, impaired and bent
Will not be straightened by its sentiment -
Appearance of a good is evils armament
But evil will reply: I am combined
And mixed, for excellence and ill I was designed
-- Pavel
April 28, 2008
the cost of renting a ship is falling below even operating costs
Maybe we could use it a house to avoid property taxes. Just sail to the next place when the politician got uppity.
Hey Pavel. Good to see you!