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Ann Rynd vs Ann Taylor. One shrugs the Atlas, the other embraces it.
This is blood-from-stone sales strategy. I want to see the ROI for the expense of the system, including the platform it runs on and the O&M surrounding it, and the higher sales/volume figures to justify it. Better get ready to show me the higher attrition employee numbers I guarantee will follow. Then we can talk about the real expense of higher turnover on their bottom line and decide if that initial investment was really worth it, or maybe, just maybe they could have spent some money marketing a portion of their product cross-spectrum, so people, like Tanta, would you know, actually buy something...designer homogeneity is a financial Cul-de-sac...you just end up chasing what the other 40 designers are already doing.
actually, these "dashboard metric" systems have been all over the corporate world for a while now. Meh.
Telling employees they will be 're-prorammed' does wondeers for morale and individual initiative.good employees feel great at their new job for weeks.
Performance metrics are very common and they can work very well. But - they are, as you point out, dehumanizing, and they have to be combined with some measure to empower the workers. One common approach is to make the system something workers can use voluntarily to improve their efficiency, which would work very well if their salespeople were on commission. Sounds like their personnel management is as poor as their fashion management. Same exploitative attitude at least. "Dry clean only" business casual is exploitative because it looks good and some people get drawn into buying it in the store but it's not really usable so the customer gets little real value.
Nothing makes sales jobs more fun than computerized monitoring!
Where can you apply?
I noticed that AT seemed to have less on the shelves. My wife confirmed it. Problems with $ for inventory?
I would not want to be an employee of organization like that. Unfortunately it seems like that is the direction many "management teams" have chosen. The only problem as an employee is the question you have to ask yourself. Where am I going to go?
I put up with some serious crap during the early 80's recession (retail) just because it was that or starve. When you have people with graduate degrees hot for your job of unloading trucks then you would be suprised at what you can take.
We where at the King of Prussia mall about a week ago. I really dislike malls but such is life. Seemed like an awful lot of redundancy.
twas me above
Mrs.B's Ann Taylor catalogs go from mail slot to recycling bin without breaking stride.
Yeah, it's 2008 and we've decided to use a pivot table to make our staffing decisions.
How innovative.
I guess it depends on just how intrusive this thing is; but if it can start quantifying skills that would otherwise be unmeasurable it sounds like a good thing.
if it can start quantifying skills that would otherwise be unmeasurable it sounds like a good thing.
If you don't have a system in place for this, and can't get people who don't need mechanical assistance to make the simplest staffing decisions, you have problems that using a brazen head to make your decisions will only amplify.
designer homogeneity is a financial Cul-de-sac...you just end up chasing what the other 40 designers are already doing.
And if you chase them into teeny-bopper land (who else wears "business casual" slacks with a waistband four inches below the navel, I ask you?), you gotta hope that teeny-boppers have some money.
What struck me on that last visit to that store was that I was probably one of maybe two people in there who could probably comfortably afford those prices. And I wasn't buying.
If you chase after the demographic least able to afford your stuff, you do have a problem.
I guess it depends on just how intrusive this thing is; but if it can start quantifying skills that would otherwise be unmeasurable it sounds like a good thing.
Yeah, you can either quantify the skills of your salespeople or you could, I dunno, make clothes that people actually want.
That would be, like, so radical, dude.
Commoditizing labor: It's the logical conclusion to ERP, "knowledge management", logistics-driven manufacture. That is a marginally-attached, P/T populated service economy.
This statement, "refine the system, possibly with features that rank employees based on skills other than their sales proficiency," reminded me of a high-end system to sort skills. Marketed by IBM, of course.
Book Excerpt: The Numerati by Stephen Baker - BusinessWeek
"Takriti's scheme is even more ambitious. He is not given to bold forecasts. But if his system is successful, here's how it will work: Picture an IBM manager who gets an assignment to send a team of five to set up a call center in Manila. She sits down at the computer and fills out a form. It's almost like booking a vacation online. She puts in the dates and clicks on menus to describe the job and the skills needed. Perhaps she stipulates the ideal budget range. The results come back, recommending a particular team. All the skills are represented. Maybe three of the five people have a history of working together smoothly. They all have passports and live near airports with direct flights to Manila. One of them even speaks Tagalog."
as a certain pointy-haired manager said "stop making mediocrity sound bad"
AT is just implementing the same industry "best practices" as everyone else!
Announcing publicly to the world that you named your system so that your employees would hate it instead of you is a stellar example of management brilliance - clear evidence that they think their employees are brain-dead illiterate dreck with no notion the WSJ even exists, let alone the ability to figure out that the system didn't spontaneously erupt, code itself and take over store operations by stealth. HR: Humans are Resources and Resources are Exploited. Got It. I'm inspired to go into a store, drag a rep around for more than five minute and then fail to be persuaded into purchasing something I have no interest in just to wreck as much havoc with their metrics as possible. It could be a hobby.
If you don't have a system in place for this
It sounds like this IS that system!
and can't get people who don't need mechanical assistance to make the simplest staffing decisions,
You ever work in a low-level retail job? Well, neither have I, but I've worked crappy factory and restaurant jobs and if it were up to me I'd be happy to have my performance judged by an impartial computer rather than the capricious manager du jour.
typical shoppers are young professionals that are willing to trade saving up 20% down for dry cleaning bills and overpriced clothing
I was in the mall yesterday just browsing. Down the center aisle are kiosk after kiosk. More than ever before. I guess the rent is cheaper. Anyway, I felt like I was at a carnival walking through the games section. Every kiosk worker was begging me to try their product.
Finally, I took out my cell phone and pretended to talk on it just so I didn't have to keep telling them to leave me alone.
I need to complain to the management.
OK, Tanta, color me curious. Where DID you end up buying your business casual?
While I don't shop in Ann Taylor (Ipodius's figure leans more toward the athletic cut with the larger jackets and smaller waist and he can never get a smart business skirt set to fit right there), having obsequious sales people run by a computer model is NOT the way to make customers buy. I mean, look at what computer models did for the finance industry.
If you really want to up your sales numbers and you're not hiring professional retail help (as in a Barney's or Neiman) then you should put the money in the merchandise and style. That's what sells items, NOT a salesperson telling you that you look good when you can clearly see that your ass looks like a bag of potatoes in what you're wearing
Tanta,
Consider coldwatercreek or the like. Sure it's internet...on the other hand it's business friendly, sizes are consistent, and they don't market to teenyboppers. Better business model and they don't chase big box designers down the drain.
Keep in mind that the folks whose salary and bonus depends on them being right are saying that they were right.
In a famous experiment at the Old Bell System Manufacturing Plant in the early 1900s, it was discovered that if you turned lights up, productivity went up. Bright lights the answer? No some bean counter suggested that they turn the lights down, productivity went up until the building almost went dark.
It seems that workers respond to management attention rather than being ignored.
ipodius' ass-sack-of-potatoes in a skirt !?*!
Ackkk!
What has been imagined
cannot be unimagined.
It sounds like this IS that system!
It would have been an innovation in 1988. In 2008, using a pivot table type arrangement to mine out performance information from your trx data is not worth a press release. An Excel driver from any given cube farm can do that.
Making day-to-day decisions with what pops out rather than consulting it for advice is absenting your good judgement. The only upshot is, you'll be able to point your fingers at the brazen head and it won't be able to defend itself at the monthly. The bad part is, you'll be able to blame it for why the company folded.
if it were up to me I'd be happy to have my performance judged by an impartial computer rather than the capricious manager du jour.
That's because the places you worked had a crap system for recruiting and retaining talent. Putting in a brazen head that tells the idiot in charge what to do will not improve things.
That's because the places you worked had a crap system for recruiting and retaining talent.
That's 90% of everything everywhere!
Tanta is a girl! I have been reading GIRLIE BLOG! Nooo, this is too much ;---)
A competitive point: You know mid-range is hurting when Talbots exits a Chevy Chase, MD, trophy mall.
The stock tanked Jan 2008 and is (today) enjoying a small bounce, attributable to multiple commitments to restructure, rationalize same-store, and completely exit boys and mens lines. Here's the kicker though.
June 8-K
EDGAR Pro
"In October 2007, The Talbots, Inc. (the Company) publicly announced that it had initiated a comprehensive review of its business to support the development of a strategic long-range plan to restore growth and profitability to the business. This review was completed in the first quarter of 2008 and details of the Companys strategic long-range plan were announced on April 1, 2008. As part of this plan to streamline operations and rationalize its cost structure, the Company is reducing its corporate headcount across multiple locations.
On June 3, 2008, management of the Company committed to a workforce reduction resulting in the elimination of approximately 9% of the Companys corporate headcount across multiple locations and at all levels. The Companys purpose in taking this action is to realign and streamline internal Company functions, which the Company believes is a necessary and important step towards strengthening the organization for the long term. Substantially all affected employees were notified on or immediately prior to June 5, 2008. The annualized cost savings expected to be achieved as a result of this reduction is estimated to be approximately $14.0 million, before expenses associated with this action."
The squeeze on margins to keep the middle-American dream alive is on.
OK, Tanta, color me curious. Where DID you end up buying your business casual?
Truth? Chico's and Eddie Bauer. I remember buying two washable wool skirts at Eddie Bauer that I wore once a week all winter for like three years. I might have looked a touch like an oversized parochial school student, but the things cost me something like $50 a pop and they came out of the dryer lookin' fine every time. Most of Chico's pants are too short for me, but when "cropped" pants became the rage, I was suddenly fashionable and at least the damned things came up to my waist and didn't have to be dry cleaned.
Frankly, "business casual" was the biggest scam I ever encountered.
It takes an experienced and incentivized salesforce to get up and running and, at the end, it takes the same type to keep people coming in for when you've become a "commodity" producer with lots of competition.
This type of software is purchased to cut down on labor costs at the management level, not floor. It's always funny when the management layer underneath the executive suite thinks the bell is tolling for the wage and commission crowd. Hint: it tolls for thee's salary.
I've worked crappy factory and restaurant jobs and if it were up to me I'd be happy to have my performance judged by an impartial computer rather than the capricious manager du jour.
heh - although I'm in IT and I do think this is a horrific type of system, I have to agree with the above. I once worked in a call-center job, with ATT monitoring system that tracked our productivity metrics. It was awfully nice to pull out the computer statistics in front of the operations manager when the capricious, incompetent weenie-boy manager tried to make out that I was a shirker and needed to work harder - and yes, it was personal.
Ugh, Ann Taylor's clothes are garbage -- badly made (a t-shirt I bought unraveled at the seams on the second wearing), unflattering, unfashionable, hideous colors, crappy fabrics. It's like they combined all the worst elements of mass-marketed women's clothing into one line. No doubt the company has managed the product line and its designers on the same autopilot with which it's now controlling the sales force. I'm picturing a robot Tim Gunn: MAKE...IT...WORK.
A couple years ago we had success finding clothes for our conservative teenage daughter there, but then the clothes, especially the waist line, shifted down and she decided to follow dad and mom and become a 100% online shopper.
Meet your new boss
Marshall Brain's short story got here first. Recommended reading.
ipodius' ass-sack-of-potatoes in a skirt !?*!
I assure you I look awesome in a skirt
Consider coldwatercreek or the like.
I do actually have a few things from Coldwater Creek. Now that I'm a full-time blogger and can wear jammies from Target, I haven't looked at their website for some time. I actually liked it, except they don't indicate the inseam length on pants. This is a problem for those of us with long legs.
At least they tend to put pockets in pants and skirts. I still can't believe people go to work in stuff without pockets. At least back in the "business stuffy" days my suit had a lapel to clip my badge to and pockets to keep coins for the coffee fund in.
Hellers Law - The first myth of management is that it exists.
scmods
Meet the new boss?
Same as the old boss.
When the results come in, successfully indicating that your part-time college student sales force can, indeed, operate the cash register properly, in the event of an actual sale of clothing, what have you actually learned? Dumb, but funny!
Unless someone speaks Tagalog, of course, in which case it is totally worth it.
Yup - it will be a definite step up to have your job performance assessed and your home mortgage approved by the same fully-automated hands-off system!
Actually, at least they'd have theoretical access to your income for the latter if they were the same system.
Talking about American management processes...real "fine" examples are GM, Ford and now majority of banks.
Total BS and based on keeping the overtight deadlines with already overworked staff, set up by overly eager sales staff and never mind the quality.
Looks awfully like a predecessor to 'manna': Marshall Brain's short story
Actually, at least they'd have theoretical access to your income for the latter if they were the same system.
Yes, but there won't be an API for the two pieces of the system to talk to each other.
If clothing retail wants to implement systems that can increase its efficiency, it can start with intelligent inventory stocking programs. No, stocking five of every size does not work, you end up with five smalls, five extra-extra-extra-larges, and nothing in between (looking directly at Sisley.) Inventory stocking programs, especially for small European-style retailers, should intelligently adjust to current inventory, local preferences, and even the demographic a given item may appeal to. The current systems, as far as I can tell, don't.
Tanta: Frankly, "business casual" was the biggest scam I ever encountered.
"Business casual" was intended to "liberate" men from the tie, which some men apparently consider to be the worst form of oppression invented since the totalitarian form of government was pioneered in ancient Mesopotamia. That, and they were cheap and didn't want to spend money on suits when they could just pay a few bucks from some cheap-junk khakis that look like burlap after being worn for five minutes.
In short, the whole "business casual" was all about men not wanting to dress up, and didn't do a thing for women.
For something like this to even have a chance of working...the mice would to be totally in the dark about it.
Let the machines make the decisions but the peons must never know about least they will contaminate the data/variables.
I went into Ann Taylor Loft, on a whim. I hadn't gone in there in years, because their clothing is so ugly and expensive.
Way, way in the back of the store I found a pair of yes, washable pants that I could wear to work. They were the right length, they fit beautifully and actually looked pretty good.
I would have bought one in every single color but they only had the one pair (as you mentioned, medium sizes are always sold out.) They're only available in grey and black.
If they had more colors I would have spent hundreds right then and there. The occasion was so noteworthy I told a couple of friends about it. I'm sure the style will be discontinued posthaste, it was clearly a fluke.
Ann Taylor itself is just as ugly and unwearable as the Ann Taylor Loft, but much more expensive.
Banana Republic has some nice things this year but the price/quality ratio still doesn't work for me. I've also found that Eddie Bauer works well as a last resort.
One strange thing about retail apparel, is that clothing is sold in lots with a certain number of items in each size. That's why you can never get a 6,8 or 10 while the sale racks are cram-jammed with 0-4 and 14-16.
Oh and forget it if you're not tall. EB has no pants in the retail store that are the right length, I'm 5'4", an extremely common and average height. I'd have to try on the pants in the store that are too long and then order the right length online. Or get things hemmed, like I have time for that.
You'd think retailers could find a way to actually stock more items in the common sizes that sell out immediately. Maybe they could get an IBM supercomputer to help them figure it out.
CEO Kay Krill earned 6,800,000 million in total comp last year.
She must be able to operate a cash register like nobody's business...
Oh and forget it if you're not tall. EB has no pants in the retail store that are the right length, I'm 5'4", an extremely common and average height. I'd have to try on the pants in the store that are too long and then order the right length online. Or get things hemmed, like I have time for that.
You have to be 5'7". That is the rule.
I'm 5'9" and all the regular pants are too short. But the "tall" sizes are generally much too long; you have to be at least 5'11" for most of that to work out.
I could, of course, buy unhemmed pants at the pricier stores and have them altered, but then I would be stuck asking myself how this was any different from the "business stuffy" days.
Gotta agree with your comments on style. My friend got me a $40 gift certificate to Banana Republic for my birthday last year, and in spite of two trips to the store, I couldn't find a single thing that suited my tastes. I found their stuff gaudy, cheap, and bizarrely styled.
In searching for basic work clothes for adult women, I ended up at Penney's ("Doin' It Right!"). I liked some of the St. John's Bay stuff, even though this too is cheaply made. But at least it felt semi-decent in style and the clothes fit well.
At the mall, the teenage shopclerks had the dismaying tendency to speak in monosyllabic, stunted phrases, seemingly under their breaths. I wonder if Atlas could do anything about that.
Lots of unintended hilarity in the article, including the chart showing Ann Taylor's sales frantically clawing their way down the toilet faster than their competitors. One must also admire the brilliance of management that explains how an employee who happened to work low sales-per-hour shifts gets assigned to, wait for it, low sales-per-hour shifts.
My favorite bit, though:
Nearly a year after Atlas was rolled out, 76% of store managers said they believed the system was better than writing schedules by hand on spreadsheets,
Followed by a line about future expansion of the program:
Another option, Mr. Knaul added, was to begin using the system to more efficiently schedule managers.
I'm annoyed that I can't remember whether the lengths of mens' trousers have always been quantized in increments of two inches. Seems like when I was young (decades ago) I was able to buy pants that fit properly, whereas now my choice is between one inch too short, or one inch too long.
It's also difficult to find a decent shirt below $60 these days.
I wonder if Ann Taylor will start using the system to schedule their public relations employees. Surely one of those 100 switches can be tweaked to make sure people that say dumb stuff to reporters are not scheduled to be working at peak reporter-calling times.
"Business casual" was intended to "liberate" men from the tie, which some men apparently consider to be the worst form of oppression invented since the totalitarian form of government was pioneered in ancient Mesopotamia.
As someone who wears a tie every day, gotta agree with this. The number of people who are like "you really dobn'thave to wear that".
I mean, no, I don't. I could wear a knit polo shirt like you and look like a sloppy, lazy Office Chad. I size my shirt necks properly, my ties aren't constricting at all, and my outfit both costs less and looks better than your (OVERPRICED, FADED) dockers and (INCREDIBLY UGLY) polo shirt.
PS, if you didn't get the memo, polo shirts all look like hell without exception, and they make you look like a lazy American dope. God, those things are so ugly. Yes that means yours.
In short, the whole "business casual" was all about men not wanting to dress up, and didn't do a thing for women.
I call BS. It let them dress like high school sluts and wear shirts that show their midriff and pants with "JUICY" on the butt to the office.
As someone who watched a grown woman walk around a very upscale office in pink, hairy Uggs with two tethered pink fluffballs each, I assure you, that men are not the only "beneficiaries" of this decline in standards.
I live in Sacramento, so I do almost all of my shopping online. (Even the major chains here have the cast-offs from their Bay Area stores. And the locals--well, never mind.) There are a couple of Ann Taylor outlets here and, I have to admit, I've never spent more than five minutes in either of them. I don't think that retail managers realize that we don't want to feel like widgets when we're shopping--greeted, item, dressing room, checkout, out. And I really hate it when people repeatedly ask me if I need help. I am a woman of middle age. If I need help, I know that I can find a clerk and ask. Otherwise allow me to wander the store muttering, "How is it that capitalism can produce so much, none of which is what I'm looking for" in peace.
Pants were definitely not always done in 2" increments. Way back when men knew what side they dressed on, pants were tailored to fit. I haven't bought clothes Stateside (read: using the English system instead of the SI) for a while, and so if more pants are appearing in 2" increments, I assume that this is because there is a larger range of waist sizes to accommodate, and only so much shelf space...
RE: Ties
NN Taleb: "Clothes matter; they send signals. Taleb warns against trusting anybody who wears a tie You have to ask, Why is he wearing a tie?Its not a good idea to take a forecast from someone wearing a tie. If possible, tease people who take themselves and their knowledge too seriously."
Must confess I know nothing about Ann Taylor-- I haven't shopped retail in years. I just can't stand to pay more than $10 for an item of clothing that may fade, ravel, get stained or otherwise become unwearable in a matter of weeks. The stuff in used clothing stores may do the same, but often it doesn't-- and I don't feel ripped off if I end up throwing out a $2 skirt.
But the multiple millions for the CEO while figuring out how to cut hours on their already minimum wage staff sounds right... Bonus for the market-worshipers is they don't even have to count the human sacrifices in the unemployment figures, although they may have to grudgingly cough up a few more dollars for food stamps.
Yeesh! Taylorism in the 21st century. Read up on the efficiency schemes of Frederick Taylor 100 years ago and you can see what a farce this is.
Frankly, it never works. If you push too hard for efficiency, workers push back with an unspoken conspiracy to monkey-wrench the system.
Ties ....
I remember still the day I got a job that meant I had to wear a tie to work every day, it felt like a rite of passage at the time. The world (and I) are different today.
Its not a good idea to take a forecast from someone wearing a tie. If possible, tease people who take themselves and their knowledge too seriously."
"Clothes matter; they send signals. Taleb warns against trusting anybody who wears a tie You have to ask, Why is he wearing a tie?
Because I know how to properly attire myself in the traditional formal dress of my culture, rather than a ugly knit polo shirt whose collar is already curling on the first wash.
If seriousness and knowledge don't go hand-in-hand, you won't look far to find out why nobody listened to what he said ahead of time.
Love the accompanying chart to the article. Says it all really.
A youthful member of the family has been partially employeed there for a year. I could never figure out the wacky low hours, all over the map, work schedule. This explains it all.
Anyway, the recent annual review was hilarious. Naturally sales figures were the promient topic. And naturally, they weren't impressive enough. However, whenever the manager's back is up against, "who ya gonna call", the dependable, can do, go to gal, that's who. So, oh course we want to keep you. And, you'd make an excellent managerial candidate (thanks, but no thanks, this gig's nice & temp. over the long term). As a reward for your unwaivering dedication to putting up with our crappy system, working all holidays, and being able to come in (on call) at a moments notice, we are in a position to offer you a whole .21 per hour raise (less than 2%, gee thanks for nothing).
Apparently, they are changing their employee discount policy. The one where you have to open and use an in-store credit card in order to take advantage of this perk of employment. I'd wager there's more than a few working to keep the balance at bay.
It let them dress like high school sluts and wear shirts that show their midriff and pants with "JUICY" on the butt to the office.
That's because the places you worked had a crap system for recruiting and retaining talent.
BAs Tanta suggests, it was easier back in business stuffy days. Finding nice looking clothes that are easy to care for and don't follow stupid trends (low rise waists, as one horrible example) are genuinely hard to find. The manufacturers lemminglike hurry to change their styles from season to season, with the result that it is surprisingly difficult to buy clothes that are in attractive colors, rather than whatever is in fashion, and that don't reveal more of you than you'd rather reveal. (Let's see a show of hands--how many of you have been appalled to see the exposed upper butt of a coworker whose lowrise pants went southward and her shirt went northward when she sat down.)
I'd like to see a study on whether manufacturers lose or gain money by bucking color and cut trends, and instead offering people what they want.
"75% of the clothing was one of three shades of the same bright pink that every other retailer was loading up on"
I have it on good authority that is no longer the case. The new hot color is now "mustard". Bon Appetite!
L.L. Bean is reasonable, good quality, and if it doesn't fit or you don't like it, they'll exchange it or take it back no questions asked.
That's because the places you worked had a crap system for recruiting and retaining talent.
For maintaining office dress discipline, yes. I could speculate at length on why and who contributed to what, but I'm a contractor and I don't like to talk about clients in any sort of specific way.
Clothes send signals, and polo shirts say "minimal effort to provide technical compliance with directives" to me.
Don't get me wrong, I normally wear hip-hop fashion and carry a gat. But the street is the street and business is business. If you're going to look good, look good, don't mickey mouse it.
Working from home, I suppose I'm disqualified from opining. Nonetheless, I don't mourn the loss of ties. A finely-tailored suit is one thing. But an ugly tie, dress pants, a dress shirt (often short sleeved, no less), and a never-worn suit jacket hanging on the back of the door or cubicle wall is not the outfit of a well-dressed man.
Oh, and please. Flip flops?
new hot color is now "mustard".
Boy am I glad I'm out of the rat race. Mustard. A color that makes about 95% of white women look like they're suffering the worst hangover ever. Reminds me of a few years before the pink craze when the hot color was that greyish-beige "putty" thing. I actually held this "putty" dress up to my neck in a store once and a friend who was shopping with me decided she should call 911. What I always wanted: to spend all day having people ask me if I was about to faint. I guess maybe it's a conversational gambit for those aggressive salespeople.
I still don't get (understand) why managers want to do an annual evaluation of line workers at all. Either the person has been doing the job and not breaking the rules or they have have not. If not, they get fired and the next person waiting at the door gets hired. If they have been doing what they were hired to do, they get the annual COL raise that is never as much as the COL actually went up. Why invest in some complicated computer program to tell you what you already know?
But then, I have a low opinion of management.
Even online stuff can be hard to find what you want. My wife can never get exactly the right outfit for her yahoo avatar...
I think the central "benefit" of the system is management's imagination that it is being assigned the "responsibility" for the whip cracking (and the hard thinking who best to screw over and how).
Not much different from Vietnam times 30+ years ago where bombing targets were supposedly selected "scientifically" "by the computer".
Oooh! I like this thread! Let's talk about clothes more often.
at least the damned things came up to my waist
I'm so sick of seeing my teen's crack I can't tell you. When we were young there were hiphuggers, but I swear it wasn't such an issue then. Maybe they're just fatter nowadays.
I hate to say but I'm 5'1. That means that I wear my pants until they're threads because finding a new pair is next to impossible.
Doggy Dog World: "but if it can start quantifying skills that would otherwise be unmeasurable it sounds like a good thing"
Be careful what you are asking for -- think five minutes what it could mean to "quantify" your every "skill" on a let's say daily basis. Of course, only those parts that are easily technically measured or tracked thus.
If you project forward from the industrial age, to the information age, to the future, our opportunities lie in a marriage of the two - mass market customization. It should be possible to step into a booth, have computers measure you head to foot in all dimensions, and then translate those measurements into clothing and shoe templates. A computer would generate a high-def, 3D gallery of the consumer wearing all manner of styles, colors, and fabrics. Selections would be transmitted to pattern cutting machines and the pieces bundled and sent to garment workers or shoe makers. Most peoples' sizes and tastes fall within predictable parameters, and those who don't could be easily accommodated.
We can select exactly the type of car we want, and pick and choose the options. We should have that kind of flexibility with clothing.
"If seriousness and knowledge don't go hand-in-hand, you won't look far to find out why nobody listened to what he said ahead of time."
I take Steve Jobs pretty seriously.
Have you seen the blues brothers?
They wore ties.
After all of their madcapped mayhem, no way i would trust Elwood Blue with my fake rolex watch.
I still don't trust people with ties.
I side with the group that thinks office casual was a scam (I think that's tanta and Byzantine ruins).
One thing you've got to say about office casual, though, is that it nicely drew a line between the players and the wannabes. For most of the 20th century, all white collar employees (male) wore suits and ties. The bosses just wore better quality, better fitting, fancy label versions. With office casual the inferior suit and clip on tie was basically relegated to the dustbin of history. But, when was the last time anybody saw Chairman Bernancke, Secretary Paulson in anything other than a suit, and when Senators McCain or Obama are photo-opped in an open collar button down or a blazer, well, it looks about as contrived as Prime Minister Putin in jeans and a leather jacket.
Also, I don't think the Ann Taylor system is any kind of an attack on the individuality, autonomy and opportunities for self-actualization (such as they are) on the part of Ann Taylor sales associates. To me, it sounds more like an effort to take scheduling autonomy away from site-based management (store managers and assistant managers, who typical schedule staff in retail operations) and give more control over to it at the district, regional, whatever, level. In other words, it's a vote of no confidence in front line management.
When we were young there were hiphuggers, but I swear it wasn't such an issue then.
As far as I'm concerned, the young can wear whatever they want. And they can listen to appalling music and say "like, you know" all the time. They are young. It is their job.
My problem is that these "business casual" retailers started selling clothing styled in exactly the same way that the jeans in Wet Seal are. But they're dry-clean only and expensive, to boot. What makes these people think that us middle-aged women want the worst of both worlds for our work clothes?
I quit being annoyed by the young folks in low-paying positions wearing goofy shit like the low-rise pants a long time age. Pretty much, as long as the pants didn't actually fall to the ground, I don't care. I don't know that it was really any more annoying than the middle-aged women who hobble around in $150 spindle-heeled mules with those Santa's Elf toes. Whatever, dudettes.
I simply do not understand the lemming business model of women's clothing retailers. To blame their problems on their minimum-wage salesclerks is beyond bongwater.
This article - LOL
Now all those high end Ann Taylor customers can get a feel of whats it like to shop for a car from a used car dealer.
I'm retired. I had about 200 ties. Threw about 50 out. Can't throw the rest out because I like them.
People walk around looking like slobs today. To paraphrase a certain NY writer, your right to walk around looking like a slob ends where my line of sight begins.
Someday perhaps we'll quit treating people as "resources" and the world will become human again.
Until then, I won't be shopping at Ann Taylor, or pretty much any other mainstream retail store. They've all been ruined with cheap rayon in patterns too obscene for the eyes anyway.
This thread has been a treat.
I too haven't bought much of anything off a rack in years. Land's End has been a pretty reliable source of just-my-size clothes, though I've found the quality has declined some since the company was bought by Sears. Can't say what their women's clothing is like as far as sizing is concerned.
Land's End does have an online custom-fit, custom-made option for a very limited range of pants (jeans and chinos, if I remember correctly). The cost has seemed to me to be too high vs. the relative improvement of fit, but if you had a physique that really pressed the boundaries of the standard-sizing curves, it might be worth it.
And I've been a Chcio's shopper for ages, until they went after the slightly older than me crowd that seems to love rayon crap clothes.
I'm a cotton girl. Anything else feels like garbage on me.
Oh, btw, my latest discovery is Duluth Trading online. Comfortable cotton with even some business presentation jackets that are so comfy. Mostly outdoor work clothes but occasionally some very cool tops, and their jeans, ah, their jeans, are simply awesome....
And I've been a Chcio's shopper for ages, until they went after the slightly older than me crowd that seems to love rayon crap clothes.
You do have to root around in Chico's these days to get past the over-decorated polyester. But hell, it's the one store my mother, my niece and I can visit and all buy something. (My mother and I have also bought clothes at Coldwater Creek, but my niece spent so much time rolling her eyes that she walked into a shelf of sweaters and had to be sent outside to wait for us.)
Langhorne? News from my home town? I'm so proud.
It's been a long time since I bought anything from Ann Taylor. Actually I think the last time was about 10 years ago when I bought a couple pairs of colored jeans. They shrunk really bad after the first wash. Total waste of money. The few times that I've wondered into an AT store, I quickly walked out. Quality is just so-so. Like Tanta says, styles and colors are limited and have a cookie cutter quality, nothing that stands out from other stores. I prefer a good sale at Talbots.
I side with the group that thinks office casual was a scam (I think that's tanta and Byzantine ruins).
As she points out, I'm the Neo-Confucian, she's merely crabby.
Don't confuse us, we're rather different creatures and I imagine I'm rather more tolerated than loved here. I don't speak for the bitchy lady, she has enough problems. =)
There is far more money to be made selling clothes you don't want than what you do. If you find what you want, you stop shopping. Where's the profit in that?
If you are out shopping, unable to find what you want, but, well, this might work, you buy it. But it doesn't work. So back out you go, shopping again.
The modern retail store now hides what you really want, for fear that you will find it; far better to place it in the back, so you will go past all the other crap, and not have it in your size. It's even better that you can go to their store in the next mall, and shop there to see if THEY have your size.
Many, many moons ago I worked for a consulting group that was very into Formal Business Wear. Ties and "dress for success" and all that.
They went belly-up, despite having a software product that should have made them the Microsoft of their field.
Their priorities were--well, a bit skewed. Yeah, business is business, but the primate status games can sure get in the way of doing business. Like treating your competent people such they don't leave for greener pastures (and leave you scrambling to find someone else on short notice), and listening to your customers on what they wanted in your product, and all sorts of unheard-of things.
But they wore ties. And insisted everyone do so. Yep.
As she points out, I'm the Neo-Confucian, she's merely crabby.
Actually, when I worked in an office I really just didn't spend all that much time trying to telegraph social status to other people via clothing.
Most of the time I sat at a desk in front of a computer or talking on the demon telephone. But I also spent plenty of time kneeling on the floor to get into the bottom row of filing cabinets, changing toner cartridges in copiers, walking past dry-erase boards or writing on them, wielding endorsement stamps with their accompanying ink pads, and dragging my sleeves over open file folders with metal clips sticking up out of them. Not to mention walking back from the coffee machine.
I thought it was going to be fabulous when we were told we could give up the expensive, dry-clean-only suits and fragile stockings and uncomfortable pumps and wear sturdy, washable stuff you can move in.
Needless to say, I felt a bit ripped off when the "business casual" retailers only stocked expensive, dry-clean only clothes that are so tight you can't even reach over to push the elevator button without making a spectacle of yourself.
I have never had any burning desire to go back to suits for everyday wear. If that makes me look like too much of a "workerbee," well, I have a short way with that attitude. Neither do I have any burning desire to spend just as much as I used to on clothes that are geared to junior high.
One more thing: "Major providers of business systems, including Oracle Corp. and SAP AG, are now in the business."
Not true. I covered this IT market segment around 2000. (Some software "analysts" called it "professional services automation." Some HRIS.) Oracle and SAP leveraged existing customer bases in ERP. IBM used to be a customer.
PeopleSoft (remember them, hmmm?) was the heavily bank-rolled-to-win "start-up" to disrupt MSFT Project. Except verticals like Lawson, Portera, Kronos, and Nakisa already had significant market shares among medium-sized firms with WAN and www/asp infrastructure.
Ah yup. "Because few retail workers belong to unions, he [Carl Steidtmann, Deloitte] says, it is easier for employers to 'move people around.' " The drive through cost avoidance continues apace with or without finance system collapse. Not to mention SEIU back-biting.
WoW! The women lurkers have come out in force.
As far as wearing the uniform of white men in power. I laugh! I scoff. I don't.
Polos? How about Black Sabbath T-shirts. Do I care. No. Do I make money? Yes.
I actually dress up more after work. I like Euro tweeds and such.
Personally I like watching the difference in how people react. Me, in a Benz, dressed up, wearing the world phone, watch, and shiny shoes. Crossing paths with someone who usually sees the Black Sabbath, flip flops, 22 year old truck.
Its a great way of getting a real read on people. Almost as fun as playing the slow southern idjit.
Ugly overpriced clothes, that's Ann Taylor's real issue. With a Depression in our midst, Ann Taylor is only guaranteeing that most of their staff will definitely quit when this economic catastrophe kicks in full swing and I can't wait for this day. It will be pleasurable to see stuffy retailers like Ann Taylor peeing in the wind, hopefully they'll go bankrupt which is not only a lesson but an attention getter.....
I have never had any burning desire to go back to suits for everyday wear. If that makes me look like too much of a "workerbee," well, I have a short way with that attitude.
To me, the point of the exercise is social-religious; to show you can go through with the rites, not to flaunt your wealth. It's a demonstration of sincerity, not disposable income.
I would find ostentatious display of means just as offensive. Just like insisting on informal attire to flatter your laziness is rude, turning your attire into a mating and status dance is also rude.
Retail traffic can be really variable due to the most basic things, including passing weather. Atlas may be somewhat helpful, but does have its limits. Nothing is better than an attentive retailer who spends a lot of time in-store just watching the shoppers and listening to comments such as those posted here.
Tanta,
I thought "dry clean only" was standard now even for wash and wear stuff.
Less returns that way. Another way to goose the bottom line while making your customers angry.
Just for fun, anyone have any suggestions for retail business to short?
I'd say ANN should be around the top of the list. I'll have to look into what all the publically traded teen stores are, because I think those are going to suffer. Tough to get money from mom and dad so you can buy a pair of ambercrombie and fitch jeans when mom and dad can hardly pay for the gas to get to work,
Well all this clothing talk reminds me of a situation I had with an employee who shopped at Lane Bryant.
Anyway, my bookkeeper had discovered that her Mastercard was missing from her wallet and as she was sharing this with a coworker she opened up her wallet and there was her Mastercard, but now her Discover Card was missing. Thinking she wasn't nuts, upon checking her charge activity she saw several charges as restaurants, but the ones that caught her eye were the ones at Lane Bryant. Who did she know whose size would fit in at Lane Bryant? Turns out she had a temp that size.
The next day she intentionally left her cubicle to go to the rest room and had another employee watching her cubicle. Sure enough, as soon as she left, her assistant went in and out of her cubicle. When she returned the Discover Card was back.
Long story short, Lane Bryant lost a customer for a while at least, as she was soon stylishly outfitted in an orange jumpsuit at taxpayer's expense.
But the problem is that the rites become ends in themselves. (In fact, that's a problem with "rites" in general, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.) That's what happened at the company I described, and it's certainly not unique. Somewhere--it may have been that 80s book On a Clear Day You Can See General Motors--I read a description of the picayune shenanigans among the management hierarchy at the major auto companies, at which point it became obvious why the Japanese were eating Detroit's lunch.
I think this was Taleb's point. He profited from his observations, whether anyone listened to him or not, and at the end of the day who's crying all the way to the bank? (I suspect people listen to him now, too, tie or no.)
@scav:
Each salesperson you 'drag around' for five minutes is a person, too. You'd be treating them like 'resources.' You're taking up five minutes of time they might just be using to make a sale. How would you feel is someone played a game like that with you? Huh?
But the problem is that the rites become ends in themselves. (In fact, that's a problem with "rites" in general, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.)
The rites are ends in and of themselves. Their purpose is to impose social control and shape behavior. Your dedication to them is measured only by the price you will pay to uphold them.
This makes them real, as real as the worth forgone for them. As with offerings to gods, moving one's lips is easy and meaningless, substantial sacrifices of blood and gold are real. As in banking, no skin in the game = no genuine commitment.
Jen
read a description of the picayune shenanigans among the management hierarchy at the major auto companies, at which point it became obvious why the Japanese were eating Detroit's lunch.
Not coincidentally, I studied the structure of the keiretsus that did the eating.
To me, the point of the exercise is social-religious; to show you can go through with the rites, not to flaunt your wealth. It's a demonstration of sincerity, not disposable income.
I accepted your comments up to this point (and to some extent agree), but this is BS. The whole purpose of dressing in anything but the utilitarian is a test, and that test is one of taste and means. Although it is a demonstration of sincerity (i.e. what's "expected"), the point is to show you're willing to spend the requisite time and money on dress, something that really doesn't benefit the consumer of your wares. The experience of high priced casual wear replacing high formal wear reveals the true priority. It is disingenuous to pretend that clothing in a business environment doesn't have anything to with status,...everything in the business environment is concerned with status.
Funny OT story:
"As someone who wears a tie every day, gotta agree with this. The number of people who are like "you really dobn'thave to wear that"."
At my old company, after we moved out to suburban office park hell from downtown, we switched to business casual. When they hired a new President, of course, he came in with a nicely tailored suit. One of the IT guys gets on the elevator with him and says, "Hey, looks like you're new here. You know, you can lose the tie next time. We're casual here."
Guess who was one of the lucky winners the following summer when it's time to "transition" to a smaller workforce.
Hey sdtfs.
Working on a reply for you, but it's on the desktop at home, so not up til this pm.
My wife likes Talbots because all the reds are the same shade, the blacks are all the same black and never vary. Their style is conservative and Republican (we are Democrats) and is accepted everywhere we go. And they never wear out or go out of style. I am the blazer and weejuns type, but I do wear suits to funerals. Black, blue or gray, never brown. The important thing is not to stand out except in performance
I have nothing to add re:business casual or hemlines at ANN. However, I would be remiss not to share with you all what a frothing-at-the-mouth maniac the recently-departed CEO of RedPrairie Corp. (the retail software provider to ANN here) is.
CEO withdraws robbery inquiry - JSOnline
To sum up his dubious allegation:
"Some big black dude (who resembled either Kimbo Slice or Mr.T, no doubt) busted in my door of my million-dollar home and terrorized my family for an hour with a sawed-off shotgun. I gave him a beer to 'calm him' down. He left without harming us in any way, but he stole my iPhone. The MPD won't even investigate, coz they suck."
The rites are ends in and of themselves.
Yeah, byzantine_ruins has really worked himself into a corner here.
Sure, you can show you commitment to 'seriousness' by following these rites, but we all know there's not necessarily any correlation between a willingness to sacrifice for these rites and get actual work done. So I think that whole line of argument doesn't lead anywhere profitable. If you've been working around people wearing ties your whole life, I can see how you might think that's how you 'look good'. But if you know what you're doing you can look damn good in a polo, or even just a t-shirt. The look says, "I'm cool and stylish" instead of "I'm a stuffed shirt", but cool and stylish people can get work done just as easily, so I don't see the problem. But also, for the shirt and tie look to work you need a very cleanly pressed shirt, or it doesn't look good. The first problem is, the cheapest shirt I know of that actually accomplishes this sells for $70 at Brooks Brothers. But even there, after a day of sitting around in an office chair, it rarely retains it's pressed quality. At which point the t-shirt, which functions differently, looks better again. And why go for that look? It's certainly not more comfortable.
Yeah, byzantine_ruins has really worked himself into a corner here.
What, because I'm writing a long morality lecture and don't want to haul it around with me? What does it matter to you, you're going to dismiss it out of hand anyway.
I'm sure you have lots of justifications for the way you act and think you're very clever for it. Nevertheless, you spring from the context of a dying society. You better be open to considering that the way you frame your worldview is quite possibly dysfunctional.
Like me or hate me, agree or disagree, at least I didn't keep on being a Mayan while the Empire fell.
Good lord, byzantine_ruins, I wish my husband thought like you! An engineering degree granted in the 90's ensures he has never actually owned a suit or tie and doesn't know anyone who does. We're in semiconductors so you have to get really high on the food chain or be PR people. Now we both work from home as contractors, so I have no traction in convincing him that he should own ONE suit. Just one, for nice events. He thinks I'm insane. Once we change to higher tax bracket, I told him it will no longer be optional.
...ally high on the food chain or be PR people to wear suits.
I mean to write.
I'd say you worked yourself into a corner because you took the wrong approach in justifying suit-wearing.
I think the best justification comes from the idea that it's a lot easier to achieve a good look if you just wear a nice suit. That makes it easier for everyone to look good and you don't have to worry about some people being more stylish than others. But that's really not the path you've taken at all.
It appears that you've decided not to engage these arguments. Since it's only a internet blog post, I can't really blame you. But I'm going to respond to your blithe dismissal, at least. As you say, I am prepared to be persuaded that my world view is quite dysfunctional, I just doubt it would be in favor of yours. After all, your world view (at least as it relates to appropriate work wear) was born in an extremely dysfunctional world- the world of white male privilege that peaked in the 50s and 60s. Compare and contrast. The first people to introduce casual wear to the business place were software programmers and engineers. The last people to hold onto the old standards are lawyers, bankers and politicians. And you're going to blame the engineers for the downfall of civilization. Daaaaaaamn.... that's a ballsy stance, for sure.
I'm sure you have lots of justifications for the way you act and think you're very clever for it. Nevertheless, you spring from the context of a dying society. You better be open to considering that the way you frame your worldview is quite possibly dysfunctional.
Oh, good grief. This is getting even sillier. Does "sense of proportion" resonate at all?
And one common way that dying civilizations hasten their death is by focusing on rites to the exclusion of an obstreperous intruding reality. (Cf. Easter Island, ca. 1400: we're all embroiled in chronic warfare and starving to boot. Let's build another moa!)
That makes it easier for everyone to look good and you don't have to worry about some people being more stylish than others. But that's really not the path you've taken at all.
You're going to save me the trouble of finishing yesterday evening's post.
The uniformity is certainly a goal, both in the little sense and in the bigger sense that people are what they pretend to be.
Superfically, business is a team sport played exclusively for stakes. Wearing the funny little kneesocks that come with your base-ball uniform, that's the tiniest thing.
On a larger scale, people love masks and uniforms and acting like an archetypal role rather than their self. People have a fundamental connection to their signs of role and station.
I see a crisis of public morality. Things like risk assessment and probity have broken down. That's because those are the purview of "stuffed shirts". We have a dynamic, informal society that can't follow or even bend knee to the simplest rules. Are you surprised by this? I'm not.
What we need is a very carefully, consciously undertaken program of myth making. Do you want right behavior? Establish an ideal figure, reward those who emulate it, punish those who deviate. Make sure that there is no difference between the
superficial appearance of what you want and what you want so that people who pursue their ends for reasons of personal profit still serve the desired end.
One of the keys to that is making the myth have recognizalbe visual touchstones. You need to mark a person so people can know what expectations to have, and so that people in the role can know when they are in the ritual time and space of the business environment.
After all, your world view (at least as it relates to appropriate work wear) was born in an extremely dysfunctional world- the world of white male privilege that peaked in the 50s and 60s. Compare and contrast.
Doesn't matter what you want to wear. We can wear djellabas or Ming Dynasty mandarin robes or neckties and business suits or little Cultural Revolution Mao outfits.
And you're going to blame the engineers for the downfall of civilization. Daaaaaaamn.... that's a ballsy stance, for sure.
I would blame the downfall of my civilization on people who didn't know the larger reason for their codes of behavior. Note that, I have a response to, "it's never really been like that".
The answer is, who cares? All history is a reductionist lie we tell ourselves. No ideal is older than the person who formulates it. I think the informalization of public life has bated the edge of the informal enforcement mechanisms that previously helped direct the general progress of public life, and, judging from the state of matters, it is a serious problem.
Sorry, very rough post, got a real job to do under time constraints. Natter awaty and I'll try to clean up the ideas when I can.
slg:
And one common way that dying civilizations hasten their death is by focusing on rites to the exclusion of an obstreperous intruding reality.
You do realize what while I wear the mask of a Confucian, you're the reactionary gnomically expounding on why the old ways are the only ones that will work, right?
Do you have a positive answer, because I am quite interested in synthesis and eating other good ideas.
You do realize what while I wear the mask of a Confucian, you're the reactionary gnomically expounding on why the old ways are the only ones that will work, right?
This statement is sufficiently off-the-wall as not to merit comment. And since I'm finding most of your suggestions to be bizaare to ludicrous I see no point in continuing. I do have work to do, too.
My, my, performance narrative & social construction through fashion arguments. Yay!
Good lord, byzantine_ruins, I wish my husband thought like you!
[...]
we're in semiconductors so you have to get really high on the food chain or be PR people.
Heh. Applicable story I'll try to relate without talking out of school.
I had a lover who was a member of a prominent semiconductor industry husband-wife pairing, who got their degree a bit earlier than you. Her husband wore only sandals and hawaiian shirts, ever, under all weather conditions, even snow.
I think that's about as far as I can go with that description. I will, however, say it surely did not slow his career down, nor did the openly polyandrous wife.
Keep in mind, the stuff I espouse generally speaks to the greater good. The reason I act the way I do is because I think everyone benefits from it (and I hate polo shirts with a purple passion).
Taking actions against your own best interest but in line with your moral compass is a classically Confucian habit that does not necessarily help you gain wealth and influential friends.
Just one, for nice events. He thinks I'm insane. Once we change to higher tax bracket, I told him it will no longer be optional.
"It is what it is" as she would say. If it has a use, it has a use. If it has no use, it has no use.
It sounds as if you want him to wear a tie to please you -- to look "grown up" or "classy". I would suggest a strategy consisting primarily of positive inducement. The tie currently means something bad. Make it mean something good. The cow comes home to the barn at feeding time of its own accord. =)
My, my, performance narrative & social construction through fashion arguments. Yay!
Oh I like you, you've had a classical education. =)
Sorry, stepped away for dinner. Actually, I think once I get him into a bespoke suit it'll be good to go. My mom & I took him shopping at the "good" stores when we moved back East and it was like the scales had fallen from him eyes. See, not only was he an engineer, but from a conservative Midwest roots, so no shopping above K-mart-level. I find your Confucian arguments interesting. One of the by-products of the women's-fashions-oppress-female-gender meme (and men as well), is that there's no room for or validation of self-expression or reflection of self-respect in clothes. Yes, people go too far, and some focus too much, but clothing can also reflect how little people matter to, or think of, themselves.
Oops, hubby dragging me away for a post-dinner stretch o' the legs. I'll watch you in future threads!
lurker mode ON
All I know is that robots don't poop their pants.
They also do not wear ties, and they are way, way more productive than all of you.
The point of dressing like an adult on the job is the hope of being treated as an adult by the PTB there, and to discourage over-casualness and over-familiarity from one's co-workers...consider it a hazmat suit for surviving a toxic environment.
I assume the polo shirts and juicy jeans workers here are young and love their jobs. Good luck.