CNBC: No Deal Reached on Paulson Plan
Submitted by
CalculatedRisk on Mon, 09/22/2008 - 12:03pm (498 comments)
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YARGH! Eff Paulson.
Screw them all!!!
They need to get Howie Mandel involved.
Any word about the ponies?
I thought it was CONGRESS who told the Treasury what to do....not the other way around?
Aiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiieeeeeeeee$$$$
The equity stake needs to be in there. They need to be firm.
See if he says no equity today the financials go up tommorow
Paulson was one of the ones who got us in this mess while he worked at Goldman Sachs.
I thought it was CONGRESS who told the Treasury what to do....not the other way around?
The Republicans, being Republicans, figure whichever branch(es) they control, they can run the gov't from.
Democrats, being Democrats, are OK with that.
Paulson et.al are asses.
I hope to god people see these jerks for who they really are now.
I am feeling pretty goddam horrible about the way things are going. In the past, this was a sure sign to buy in. Just sayin'!
Hank is God. Do what he says or else!~
You say you want a revolution?
Can I get a "Heil Paulson!"
Do what he saaaaaaaayyyyyy, do what he saaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy!!
Cleavon Little
This whole thing is insane. Who the F*** do these people think they are?
Paulson was one of the ones who got us in this mess while he worked at Goldman Sachs.
Paulson is more responsible for the mess than anybody else on the planet. He was #1 at the #1 investment bank through the craziest part of the bubble period. Nobody, but nobody created more toxic overpriced commission-driven crooked derivative garbage than he did.
How is it we seem to have forgotten it's the head fox in charge of the chicken coop?
"Geoff writes:
Do what he saaaaaaaayyyyyy, do what he saaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy!!
Cleavon Little"
ROFLMAO!!
"Now, you don't wanna go and shoot (Paulson). You'll jes get him mad at ya."
They think they can do whatever the f^&k they want...and get cleanly away with it.
And as of now, they are correct.
Paulson is a pig. Justice needs to be done.
Congressmen,show some testicles and do NOT surrender to Hanky-Panky Paulson. Keep it up!!!!
FE - willful ignorance and denial. Same mechanism that brought us the NAR and all their propaganda. So many players in this mess, but Hank was surely King.
Push has come to shove.
If there's one thing Congress understands it's the power of money. I doubt they will hand a blank check with immunity and no oversight to Paulson. Eventually he'll have to compromise to make the legislation happen.
My best guess right this moment is that the bailout plan as actually implemented will be rejected by most of the entities it was designed to help. The crux of the issue is that they cannot admit their investments have lost substantial value. At first they will reject generous offers. Over time the offers will become less generous and pressure will build. Eventually they'll try to negotiate back to the starting point but it will be too late.
Yavolt Heir Pauslon!
Let me change that for you.
992 visitors!!!
What is the record?
(obligatory hoopajoop)
Are the Repubs in congress expect to vote in lockstep with Paulson's plan? Is that the reason why cnbc and bloomberg keep talking about "Democrats" instead of using the word "Congress"?
Thank God at least some of the Republicans aren't falling for this scam.
Anybody regretting that second Bush vote yet?
Just saying...
1016 visitors now...
Jeeezus, anyone listening to this fool on cnbc? "The goverment has great cash flow because it can just print money." Oh yeah, AND he also said we will make money on this so it''s not really a bailout...
over 1000 visitors!
i want some equity for my $700BN!
My best guess right this moment is that the bailout plan as actually implemented will be rejected by most of the entities it was designed to help. The crux of the issue is that they cannot admit their investments have lost substantial value. At first they will reject generous offers. Over time the offers will become less generous and pressure will build. Eventually they'll try to negotiate back to the starting point but it will be too late.
This is the exact parallel for sellers in the housing market.
No deal? <a href="http://news.ino.com/headlines/?newsid=689366867868710> AP says they're making progress.
we need to find where Paulson lives.
Listen,
Everyone needs to call Barney Frank and let him know people are behind him and we want the changes to this ridiculous piece of legislation. His number is (202) 225-5931
Even leaving a message of support will help give these guys spine.
Which house? You mean where he votes? Or what? For now, probably Id guess he lives in McClean VA with the rest of the _________.
comrade -
Paulson lives at the Treasury
Any news on Section 8 removal in proposal?
Damn right about Congress! They should be pissed. Accoring to them, they are supposed screw the public!
Now if the taxpayers are really going to make money on this, why would the financial sector be balking at the contingent equity requirement?
Things that make you go hmmmm.....
But the debate is over for all intents and purposes. Everyone is on board with the bailout, the only thing anyone is discussing is what little provisions to add for political cover. The $700 billion is as good as spent.
CRVIX is up! 992 visitors. Whoa.
This might have been leaked in an effort to tie Treasury's hands on the issue. Not a bad political ploy - it shows it is on the table.
P.S. Cthulhu will eat your pony.
WD40 writes:
Listen,
Everyone needs to call Barney Frank and let him know people are behind him and we want the changes to this ridiculous piece of legislation. His number is (202) 225-5931
Even leaving a message of support will help give these guys spine.
WD40 | 09.22.08 - 4:22 pm | #
No! You must do more! You must...I don't know. Make Pony cookies?
Peter Schiff on Bloomberg now
"Listen,
Everyone needs to call Barney Frank and let him know people are behind him...."
You go first.... just sayi
YouTube - Revolution Beatles
Treasury Disputes Democrat On Changes in Bailout
Page not found - - CNBC.com
Democrats...I was ready to hold my nose a vote Republican, but if you can get and keep the "equity stake" in the TARP deal, I'll vote Democrat in the upcoming election. Republicans, same deal.
Consider it me selling my vote.
i prefer no deal at all. just let the highly leveraged derivatives crash.
it's a choice of yanking the bandaid off all at once or SLOWLY.
actually more like a brazilian wax.
Paulson is more responsible for the mess than anybody else on the planet. He was #1 at the #1 investment bank through the craziest part of the bubble period. Nobody, but nobody created more toxic overpriced commission-driven crooked derivative garbage than he did.
This whole Paulson Plan thing is so insane.
It might as well be called "The Jeffery Skilling Plan".
TIMEOUT!
Field a new economics team!
700 Billion will turn in to 1.8 Trillion soon
jo6pac
CRVIX
best ticker symbol evah
OT
Twenty-two states worth 295 elec votes are now showing year/year employment declines (establishment survey)with the release of the Aug 08 data last Friday.
Short post on the topic over at my blog.
DD
That wasn't the case for FNM. Why is it the case for WALL STREET?
The best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry. Even the worst-laid plans of Chuck Norris come off without a hitch.
Don't roll over - keep up the pressure:
For those angry enough to act: contacting your member of congress is good -- contacting your state/local officials can be useful as well -(see search box in upper left to find all of your elected officials):
Congress.org - Get informed, get involved
If you call their offices, all these officials have staff dedicated to taking complaints/solving problems -- if they get inundated with calls, they are going to do something -even if it is simply informing your officials that the public is outraged.
one of the BEST things you can do is contact your local media - TV station /radio/ and newspaper - and register complaints, and ask why they aren't knocking at elected officials' doors and covering this more. They get enough complaints, it's a story.
Get a few folks together in your neighborhood, church group, whatever - even if it's just your family, and organize a protest, or pass out flyers in front of a bank (yes it's small potatoes, but press are much more likely to cover if there's some kind of visual/audio element they can whip up for their newspaper-website pages or the TV news.) The more visual, the better (can you rent pig costumes - or at least buy those pig noses at a Halloween store?).
National media contacts: (I recommend calling - ask for the newsroom / news assignment desk/ managing editor of news to try to get through)
FAIR's Media Contact List
Isn't the title a bit misleading?
Disagreement only about equity stake
Breaking News:
Paulson deal said to come with ponies to be delivered after the elections, probably some time in early 2009.
http://tinyurl.com/crpony
Yay! Ponies!
wHO DOES THE treasury represent?
Or
No rush....take ur time.
When Chuck Norris plays Monopoly, it affects the actual world economy.
he got a call from the west wing
congress is no longer needed
george is pissed
What zero said.
Just called Barney Franks office.
Guy sez the keep track.. Right now 60 con 40 pro.
Keep up the good work guys.
Excuse me, is Congress still the government, or are they now some sort of ad-hoc committee called by the Treasury Secretary?
700 BILLION DOLLARS.
Any company wanting to participate should become a fully owned subsidiary of the United States of America, with GS rates applying for all executive compensation, and every single taxpayer receiving equivalent shares of the company to cover their investment.
Simple.
mish has a list of ALL the congress critters and senator squatters, so no excuse yo!
Mish's Global etc.
or you can listen to Rubenstein of the Carlyse group tell you what to do, he's on bloommberg.
Methinks that Bush and Cheney had a convo with Paulson and made clear who Paulson works for (and it isn't the taxpayers).
One problem for Bush: only 19% now approve of Bush's overall performance.
New poll: Zero percent of Americans think national economy is improving.
A new American Research Group poll shows that [n]o Americans say that the national economy is getting better, while 82 percent say it is getting much worse. Only 17 percent approve of President Bushs handling of the economy, with 78 percent disapproving. Even among Republicans, more disapprove of his economic performance than approve:
Among Republicans, 46% approve of the way Bush is handling the economy and 48% disapprove. Among Democrats, 97% disapprove of the way Bush is handling the economy and 2% approve. Among independents, 8% approve and 87% disapprove of the way Bush is handling the economy.
Bushs overall approval rating fell to 19 percent, from 30 percent last month, with 76 percent disapproving.
Dems have 4 aces, they'd better play their hand right.
I hope that 60/40 split is percentages and not actual numbers of people. He must have gotten more than 100 calls today.
Should i listen to Shciff? Should i really go all out and load up on gold and silver?
Question:
Why would the treasury want to exempt these operations from public scrutiny and court action?
This one part of the legislation pisses me off almost as much as the price tag.
Listen to this :
Page Not Found
I have capitulated on TWM at market close.
Upcoming stimulus check + fixed market + bad tracking = unhappy loss.
Just goes to show we are better of shorting the future directly. At the level it is at now I would be deep in the black instead of a little in the red. Shysters.
ps. After 4 days I am still in shock at the transfer of wealth that is taking place between the common man and the banksters.
This act will change the state of worldwide finance.
If you think the US is bad, see what will happen in south america, Russia, Eastern Europe, Spain, Ireland, etc. When their own banks and financials start blowing up in major ways. (Not just fringe players)
Everyone was playing the free money casino, but all will pay in the next year or so.
This one part of the legislation pisses me off almost as much as the price tag.
That part I did quote verbatiim in faxes to my 2*S + R
I can haz no dilution plez?
Any company wanting to participate should become a fully owned subsidiary of the United States of America, with GS rates applying for all executive compensation, and every single taxpayer receiving equivalent shares of the company to cover their investment.
Agreed, i think the GS-15 schedule is very fair for the corporate execs. Maxes about $140k
Percentages of course.
New poll: Zero percent of Americans think national economy is improving.
Wow. I don't think I've ever seen a poll register zero percent on anything before.
I will tell you this . . . George Bush and company have absolutely no appreciation for the ebb and flow of history. They would rather play chicken and risk a full blown revolution than do the right thing. This is disgusting.
Can anyone link me to the article about negative amortization resets hitting their caps between April and October or November of next year?
Would be most appreciated - need it for a post on another blog.
Market no-likey GS conversion to bank from IB:
Down $8.96 (-6.9%)
Should i listen to Shciff? Should i really go all out and load up on gold and silver?
Personally I think we're approaching the "tipping point" between a deflationary and inflationary outcome. I doubt anyone really knows the outcome at this point, but I think there's at least going to be an attempt to do anything to stop deflation until the markets revolt. From what I've read something like this may have happened during the Depression.
I put down bets on Wachovia, MS, and 1st Union National Bank 2-3 month debt. The YTMs are too high to ignore.
Ultimately Bernanke and Paulson will sacrifice dollar strength and stable prices in order to keep the financial system moving.
At least that's what I hope.
@eric Get yourself your own name. I was here first.
1115 Visitors Online
Officially breaks last highest I had ever seen (1095) a few days ago.
Let me get this straight - a few years ago Barney Frank stalls improved regulation of Fannie and Freddie. Now he wants changes to the bailout plan.
And you sheeple are yelling at Paulson for not listening to Frank?! On what basis does Frank have ANY credibility whatsoever?
Criminee, no wonder this country is in such a friggin' mess.
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Billy Shakespeare, Macbeth
What will the night bring?
Ok, if all 1000 some viewing now call Frank, maybe we can tilt those percentages.
I expect a report in half an hour from somebody.
Thanks ac that's what I'm thinking. The plan still doesn't guarntee banks will lend. My heads about to explode.
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T. Harrison opined today that if we follow Karachi's move since the SS Ban, S&P bottoms at 911.
Do we need to short them over here so that they don't sell like over there?
i saw 1121 visitors when i logged o
"Paulson is more responsible for this mess than anyone else."
Sorry, I'd have to vote for Phil Gramm on that one.
They would rather play chicken and risk a full blown revolution than do the right thing.
Everyone - EVERYONE - knew that before the last election. And yet - he got re-elected. With a bigger win than the first time 'round.
Before bitching about everyone else, it's time US voters took a good long hard look in the mirror.
$140K is a lot of money. You could buy a lot of CEOs at the price level.
Vote Norris writes:
When Chuck Norris plays Monopoly, it affects the actual world economy.
Vote Norris | 09.22.08 - 4:27 pm
I see we have a Church of Norris adherent in the house. Welcome, but note that people around here seem to worship this large, split-hoofed spirit in lipstick known as "the Mortgage Pig."
I think the motivation behind the Section 8 provision is simple: if some shareholder could run to court and get an injunction on each of these transactions, Treasury would spend most of its 700Billion (aka 'lunch money') on legal fees fighting all those suits.
And suppose we say, 'fine suits are okay, just no injunctions,' then what happens if they lose in 18 mos? Are they going to unwind some transaction 2 years later? Trying to provide appropriate legal review in a timely fashion would be a nightmare.
I'm not saying I like it, but that's the motivation.
Visitors 1133! Nice number.... Two pair!
Just called Barney's office...
The assistant on the other end assured me she'd pass my thoughts along.
Uh huh. Sure.
1138
Questions:
1) Why do people who recently got mortgages have to now pay twice for their house ?
2) Why do people who avoided this sector completely have to pay for it ?
Thanks. (kinda rhetorical questions)
Sen. Jim DeMint is blasting the bailout:
"It's a sad fact, but Americans can no longer trust the economic information they are getting from this Administration. The Administration said the bailout of Bear Stearns would stop the bleeding and solve the problem, but they were wrong. They said $150 billion in new government spending using rebate checks would solve the problem, but they were wrong again. They said new authority to bailout Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac would solve the problem without being used, but they were wrong again. Now they want us to trust them to spend nearly a trillion dollars on more government bailouts. It's completely irresponsible and I cannot support it."
United States Senator - Jim DeMint
@ac
Re: Tipping point
Without a doubt there will be asset deflation. Whether that translates to consumer price deflation is anyone's guess, no? The asset inflation did not translate to consumer price inflation, so why would deflation occur now? I can see it happening if the system basically breaks down, that is, if short term credit to corporations becomes expensive. But we really have not seen that yet. The only places we see expensive short term credit are the financial institutions. Run of the mill corporate bonds remain low yield. What do you think?
Before bitching about everyone else, it's time US voters took a good long hard look in the mirror.
Greenspan's Left Nut | 09.22.08 - 4:38 pm | #
We like what we see. McCain is going to win in November, in another "close" election. BTW, I desperately hope I'm wrong, but hope is not a strategy.
I just saw this on another blog -
buymyshitpile.com
Zero writes:
If there's one thing Congress understands it's the power of money. I doubt they will hand a blank check with immunity and no oversight to Paulson. Eventually he'll have to compromise to make the legislation happen.
Compromise? Who elected him; why is he even a party to the negotiations? Give Paulson the finger and pass the bill.
Comrades!
How is bubblevision handling this? Are they blaming the market drop on the adjustments to Dear Leader Paulson's plan?
*Funny - all this is happening close to the 91 year anniversary of the October Revolution of 1917.
Here's some slogans to get you in thhe moood, Comrades.
LONG LIVE THE GREAT OCTOBER SOCIALIST REVOLUTION!
LET LIVE FOREVER IN THE PEOPLE'S MEMORY THE UNPARALLED ACHIEVEMENT OF THE LENINIST GUARD OF OCTOBER! the glorious Bolsheviks-Leninists, all those who fight for the victory of socialism.
LONG LIVE SOCIALIST DEMOCRACY! guaranteeing genuine people's power and social justice!
There is something missing from the bailout plan.
Lenders are going to get whacked, as they should.
People who over-borrowed recently are going to get whacked, as they should.
But the people who sold their homes to the over-stretched borrowers are getting away scott free.
If it is appropriate to claw back bonuses from lender execs that were based on "predatory" lending, then the profits from houses sold at the inflated prices made possible by "predatory" lending should also be clawed back.
Anything less is just not fair.
Just sayin'....
Live stream Senate floor
...
If this is September, can anyone guess what October will be like?
New poll: Zero percent of Americans think national economy is improving
0.0
Fattened debt by spending is no way to go through life son.
No Deal! Gee it can't be because the executive pay isn't what the executives want!
How can they live on a mere pittance of what they are used to getting!
This is the only crumb left on the table for the American Taxpayer!
Comrades,
Ahem...Just exactly what it the TREASURY secretary got to do with legislation. My understanding is that the Congang writes, and the President signs.
Just sayin'
Nostrovia,
Is that a flag pin on your uniform?
New poll: Zero percent of Americans think national economy is improving
0.0
Fattened debt by spending is no way to go through life son.
GLN said:
"People who over-borrowed recently are going to get whacked, as they should."
Where in any of the proposed bailouts did you see this? I can't find it...
A bailout for the rest of us:
buymyshitpile.com
If short term credit and liquidity freeze up, we'll see price deflation. And quickly.
Think of the scenario that Paulson had painted: credit cards not working, checks not clearing, ATMs not working. If that happens, go to your local grocer. Here are several gallons of milk and some crisp lettuce that if not sold immediately, will be valueless. Only some of the grocer's customers have cash. To induce them to part with it, what does the grocer do? Lower the price.
A homely example, but it should generalize. Car dealership has to sell the cars NOW to pay the receptionist and the tire company and the gas bill. Etc.
Just a thought to Hank Paulson...
Hank, I'm SURE if you just explain to the CEOs, boards, and investors in the financial companies that you are proposing to bail out just how close to financial Armageddon we are (just like you explained to Congress) , they would be more than willing to give the taxpayers an equity stake. After all, the alternative is financial Armageddon, correct?
Just explain it to the CEOs, boards, and shareholders, causing them to wet their collective pants like congressional leaders did. Then they will get on board with the program.
Or, are we really NOT facing financial Armageddon?
Which is it?
What do you think?
AC, the outcome is unclear. But my outlook remains unchanged - the jig is up.
Inflation in needs (CPI), deflation in wants (luxury items, stocks, bonds and especially leveraged assets like real estate).
No deal? Then let the system collapse. Fuck it, I'm ready for a French Revolution. Paulson can be first in line for the guillotine.
The problem with either bailout plan is that it doesn't address short-term paper and bank loans. Even with 700 billion in bailouts there will still be net losses, a credit crunch, and untold numbers of disasters like Dryfly's friend. We have to have a plan to keep short-term credit markets going, even with a bailout. And, if have have a short-term credit plan maybe we'll be able to pass on the bailout and handle things through BK, which everybody agrees is the best way, if possible.
"I'm ready for a French Revolution. "
We just need to go through a few economics teams before we find a winner.
The Dems need to write their plan, pass it and tell Bush to take it or leave it ...
From Barry Ritholtz' blog:
buymyshitpile.com
The Dems need to write their plan, pass it and tell Bush to take it or leave it ...
404 Page Not Found | The White House
EXACTLY Arroyogrande - Now, let's see if there's anyone out there in medialand smart enough to ask this question.
"Hank, I'm SURE if you just explain to the CEOs, boards, and investors in the financial companies that you are proposing to bail out just how close to financial Armageddon we are (just like you explained to Congress) , they would be more than willing to give the taxpayers an equity stake. After all, the alternative is financial Armageddon, correct?
Just explain it to the CEOs, boards, and shareholders, causing them to wet their collective pants like congressional leaders did. Then they will get on board with the program.
Or, are we really NOT facing financial Armageddon?
Which is it?"
Well chosen words for the GWB admin -
"the jig is up"
Fair Economist :
the only way to clean up this mess...
~ Nationalize all the banks and declare a bank holiday.
~ Evaluate the banks assets ...
~ Liquidate failed banks ...
~ Re-capitalize healthy banks and take a stake for any investment ...
~ Fire the Banksters and the boards ...
This is the only way to cleanse the system. Without getting rid of the toxic waste the few will always pollute the many causing credit seizure.
Arroyo is correct. If the banks really need the bailout they will be more than happy to provide equity. If they don't want to provide equity and would rather go bankrupt then good riddance I say.
If the Dems really wanted to stick it to Bush, include a tax increase for the richest 1%. It would be a complete humiliation for the Bush "legacy."
Congress is under the gun to pass this.
Think about it: 1/3 of the Senators and the entire house is up for re-election.
This bill (arguably) put a floor on the market decline. There is NO way in hell Congress wants to go back home and face re-election with this monkey on their backs.
With any luck, the market still tanks and they are f*cked anyways.
This is going to be an ugly fight between Congress/the public and the "unitary" Excecutive Branch/Wall Street. Right before an election.
As always the press will play a pivotal role in managing public expectations and redirecting the outrage. Don't expect them to be "on your side" as one of my local stations says...
Comic relief headline from Bloomberg:
"U.S. Stocks Tumble on Concern Bailout Won't Stop Recession"
Gee, ya think?
AC...I like how you think
"Paulson is more responsible for the mess than anybody else on the planet. He was #1 at the #1 investment bank through the craziest part of the bubble period. Nobody, but nobody created more toxic overpriced commission-driven crooked derivative garbage than he did.
This whole Paulson Plan thing is so insane.
It might as well be called "The Jeffery Skilling Plan"."
"The Dems need to write their plan, pass it and tell Bush to take it or leave it ..."
hell no, he will just 'line-item' the oversight stuff, make a 'signing statement' and keep the money.
i'd honestly have the most respect for congress if they just went to hawaii until february 1. then, on february 2, explain that there's a big free probowl party for him, donny, and hank, though it is Brussels this year...
Commissar 4822
Tell Bush to sign an Executive order ... at 19% in the polls even Pelosi would Impeach the bastard if it was bunk ...
Ian writes:
Should i listen to Shciff? Should i really go all out and load up on gold and silver?
Lest we forget history....Executive Order 6102
This bill (arguably) put a floor on the market decline. There is NO way in hell Congress wants to go back home and face re-election with this monkey on their backs.
Again - Bush can steal their thunder with an EO - I believe all he has to do is order the Treasury to take appropriate action.
Nothing found for Node 62
Even better.
"Do you mind if we dance with yo' dates?"
1111 Visitors- Super Vertical Day!
Dean writes:
Congress is under the gun to pass this.
I don't think so ... I think the public knows this is Bush's mess and any stalling will be laid at his door ...
"OTIS, MY MAN!!!!"
Lest we forget history....Executive Order 6102
this
another shocker is
Executive Order 9066 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Now go copy arroyo's comments, go to
Congress.org - Get informed, get involved
and paste them in an email to your reps.
and then call hank paulson (at the treasury press office- I think we are all press, now):
(202) 622-2960
Dow off 373. Paulson has succeeded in informing all the people who didn't know that we are in horrible, horrible shape.
bgates writes:
"The Dems need to write their plan, pass it and tell Bush to take it or leave it ..."
hell no, he will just 'line-item' the oversight stuff, make a 'signing statement' and keep the money.
not if the legislation had a board to monitor the bailout ... a board appointed by Congress ...
Let the Impeachment Begin !
hmmm... I see 1099 visitors. I could swear 1099 means something....
@Fair Economist: You're absolutely right. Buying up toxic waste is a long term solution, when the real fear might be keeping the short term economy working, like keeping credit cards and checks and ATMs working.
@Tanya Stafel: wouldn't that be a transient phenomenon, though? In the GD and Japan there was systemic deflation; is that what we see here?
Might not be a bad idea to go out and pull cash from ATMs. It really would not hurt to stockpile a few $K currency. Not like I would be suffering any great yield loss by doing so!
I am liking what Congress is doing. They are thinking and dealing on the most important legislative action of our lives, and they are roughly representing their constituents and the various sides of the issue. It's not coming out exactly the way I'd want it but they are doing their jobs. And this includes the Republican foot-draggers - if the final plan can't flip at least some of the foot-draggers IMO it shouldn't pass.
When the normal corrupt malaise sets back in, I'll be moving back to my so-called hipster blogs. I'll miss you all. I mean that.
Commissar 4822
Let's not forget IMPEACHMENT !
At this point, why would Obama or McCain want to step into this huge barrel of shyte come Nov 5?
We have to have a plan to keep short-term credit markets going, even with a bailout
We had that until the fed under that nitwit Bernanke tried to save Bear Stearns and other investment banks levered 30+ to 1.
Now we have nothing! Incompetent fools.
Seriously, sometimes it seems Bernanke is actually testing his Great Depresion theories.
Eric writes:
@Fair Economist: You're absolutely right. Buying up toxic waste is a long term solution, when the real fear might be keeping the short term economy working, like keeping credit cards and checks and ATMs working.
and rolling over business debt as it comes due.
We have got to get capital into the hands of the people who know how to use it. Why do we have to continue to send the liquidity in through a broken pipe?
Comrade Baron Von Helmut III
The power to shape the future .... much will change soon ...
Aux armes citoyens
Formez vos bataillons
Marchons, marchons
Qu'un sang impur
Abreuve nos sillons
When tyrants tremble, sick with fear,
And hear their death-knell ringing,
When friends rejoice both far and near,
How can I keep from singing?
@ Eric
Beats me--my knowledge tapped out in the section on "economics" in the 6th grade. Everything else I know, I've learned here. I was trying to imagine a refutation to the point that we could see asset deflation without price deflation. I still have literally no idea whether or not this plan, in any of its forms, would cause deflation or inflation, in any or all parts of the economy.
This whole thing makes me feel tremendously, tremendously stupid. And vulnerable.
Congress should reach over and bitch slap Paulson!
"Bush can steal their thunder with an EO - I believe all he has to do is order the Treasury to take appropriate action."
Only Congress can authorize the expenditure of funds.
Anything else is a coup d'etat.
I think some of you folks are over-reacting to the "no deal" headline. This is standard negotiating practice: if you are Paulson you can't afford to make piecemeal concessions or let Congressmen announce that you have made such concessions. The standard rule is nothing is agreed upon until everything is agreed upon. I see no reason to believe that progress is not being made and I expect there will be a deal this week, probably including equity ownership. Whether the overall deal will be a good deal is another matter.
escariot
Life is but a walking shadow
a poor player who struts and frets his hour upon the stage and is heard from no more. It is a tale, told by an idiot, full of sound and fury - signifying nothingburger.
The standard rule is nothing is agreed upon until everything is agreed upon.
And Barney Frank is well aware of that, which tells you he knows who's in the driver seat.
ac and Tanya:
Glad to see that I'm not the only one undecided on in vs deflation.
As of weekend, hyper appeared teh way, but asset prices continue to drop as folks sell.
Yet anything oil related will sky as teh dollar tanks and producers demand more and more.
I think that it's going to be bifurcated as oil related/food rises until the world economy tanks and everybody is wiped out. Then it'll calm down.
Meanwhile, AOL shows a Ford that gets 65 mpg but they won't sell in the US.
They deserve to tank.
"Seriously, sometimes it seems Bernanke is actually testing his Great Depresion theories."
All of which are totally off-base. The depression wasn't caused by a lack-of-liquidity. Carnegie was right. What should have been a quick jolt which sweated off too much consumer credit and a frothy stock market only became a global decade-long depression because of exactly the kinds of shenanigans which Helicopter Ben is trying to jam through.
Pure idiocy, while Hanky Panky seems to have the personality and ideological of your average comic-book super villain.
Everyone needs to call Barney Frank and let him know people are behind him and we want the changes to this ridiculous piece of legislation. His number is (202) 225-5931
Even leaving a message of support will help give these guys spine.
WD40
I got right through. Jam those phones, folks!
Just got off the phone with one of the Barney Frank's aides and she suggests that they are weighing equity option against the reverse-bidding option. The reverse bid option will mean mark-to-market rule will kick in and she says there might be changes in those rules that might be considered to ease the crisis if they go via that route.
Either way it seems they are hell bent on passing the bill with some judicial over sight thrown in to pacify the agitators. Brace your selves for the biggest bail out in American history.
Just last year a rate cut could shoot the market into the stratosphere, now the entire US treasury gives us a 1 or 2 day boost. I am thinking investor setiment is truely changing in a generational way.
meant mellon, not carnegie. get my pittsburgh titans mixed up now and then.
Isn't Paulson a Democrat? Also, Barney Frank is busy trying to get HR 6694 passed this week(reinstatement of Downpayment Assistance). I agree with a lot of whats said on this site, but methinks some of you are confused as to who is mostly responsible for it.
In the GD and Japan there was systemic deflation
Cut the crap. Japan only had a very mild deflation. Their living standards suffered WAY more due to the perpetuation of unpayable debt. Families still suffer from 50 year multi-generational mortgages. Do you want that here?
The world now is SO much different than 1929. Our ability to provide food, shelter and water is vastly greater.
Nobody will starve, go thirsty or freeze. Lattes, well drink folgers and live within your means.
"With Liberty and Fraternity for all."
"Amen."
Speaker73 writes:
Just called Barney's office...
The assistant on the other end assured me she'd pass my thoughts along.
Uh huh. Sure.
Your phone calls do matter. Those staffers take daily tallies of the calls and do pass them along. This is how the congresscritters gauge the temperature of the rabble.
Repubs have been known to get people to call their opposition en mass - if you ever wondered how they get the dems to do what they want, that's part of their strategy.
H. Chavez travels to China today.
An Executive Order to spend money would require only an authorizing resolution from Congress.
I'm sure an EO would only be issued under the direst of "circumstances".
I'm starting to make even Nixon look good.
"Anonymous writes:
Isn't Paulson a Democrat?"
No. Paulson is a Republican. Thanks for playing.
"Our ability to provide food, shelter and water is vastly greater. "
Houston, shuttle to Houston... Houston, are you there?
Screw the Banksters ...
Participation or go take a piss ...
Austin Tex,
That's been my point when discussing this amongst my small circle. Arguably, this plan could push the broad economy into a deeper recession if dollar weakness results in higher consumer prices for commodities when they can least afford them. Then less money to buy iPods.
"The world now is SO much different than 1929. Our ability to provide food, shelter and water is vastly greater.
Nobody will starve, go thirsty or freeze."
Sounds familiar.
Geez. It's bad when you fax your senators and instead of asking to veto the bailout, you are almost begging that they make management and shareholders shoulder some of the burden.
The short-term bounce will be epic.
Long-term this bill fixes zero problems with housing.
Ted up again
2.26
We had that until the fed under that nitwit Bernanke tried to save Bear Stearns and other investment banks levered 30+ to 1
I'm not too upset with what Bernanke has done so far. The 29 billion you refer to was wasted (in this sense) but most of the Fed money has gone to short-term auction windows which do, mostly, support the short-term working capital loans I'm talking about.
The problem is a) Bernanke is out of money and b) his liquidity measures don't help the problem of capital losses cutting total available loans. Having the Treasury issue bonds and deposit them with the Reserve is a good idea for a) and on a larger scale than the 40 billion already done. Something else has to be done for b), probably direct loans from the Feds. Plus some thinking about how to cut down on leverage/improve working capitall.
"Any news on Section 8 removal in proposal?"
That's the killer for me. I told my Senators (Levin and Stabmenow) that if they vote for any deal with Section 8's language in it they'll never get another vote from this loyal Dem.
I expect that with the stout, fearless leadership of Harry Reid, most of the Dems will eventually cave. If that includes Obama, I'm voting for Barr or Paul.
"Paulson is a Republican."
No mere republican, a graduate of the nixon/ford administration along with his military equivalent and his ethical mentor, donny and dick.
Yalt
AA nonfinancial commercial paper is still at low interest rates. The rate spread between that paper and the lower rated has gotten huge, though, and I am not sure how important the lower rated CP is to the economy.
Liz:
Paulson didn't have to tell anybody.
Main Street is getting it. The question is, who's left in equities to hold the bag?
As for me, I'm spending my time trying to look 5 - 10 years down the road.
We aren't talking Mad Max, but there's going to huge societal hits. I think that the country will hold together despite everything and if the republicans in congress don't stand up to Paulson and Bush on this one, then the GOP is toast.
What will take it's place as a viable entity?
Meanwhile, the navalgazing continues.
Utter stupidity and democracy don't work well together.
You should bail out your bankrupt education system instead.
Mr.Sparkle
the economy is going into recession anyway ...
the financial sector was 25% of GDP .... what's left will be half that ... fewer jobs ... less in taxes
Any politician who votes against the bailout bill will have an easy time getting re-elected this year.
October will be brutal. By election day, anyone who can say "I voted against Paulson's plan" will be a regarded as a hero.
The economy will collapse no matter what they do in Congress.
"Nobody will starve, go thirsty or freeze."
Yeah, but the weaponry at our individual disposal is now so much more awesome.
Bet he only talked to the heads of the investments banks.
"The problem is a) Bernanke is out of money..."
you forgot c) took all the wrong lessons from all three periods which this references, america in the 30s, the 70s and japan in the 90s, and is hence possibly the worst candidate in the universe to do anything except make the problems exponentially worse.
Anyone else considering withrdrawing a few weeks worth of 'spending' cash from the bank and keeping it at home in a safe place?
Wait... will somebody please explain why Herr Paulson is calling the shots? Maybe he should just "dissolve the Senate for the duration of the emergency." ARGH!
I can't see an Executive Order. If it was possible, he would have done it that way in the first place. To push this sham now with an EO after tacitly admitting it req'd Congressional approval by submitting it in the first place is just asking for impeachment.
mmckini - sorry, I should have stated I already think we are in a recession.
Here's a chart of sector contribution to S&P earnings: http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/2973/sp500sectorcontribskq7.png
(Source: www2.standardandpoors.com/spf/xls/index/iee500_gics.xls)
Ian writes:
Should i listen to Shciff? Should i really go all out and load up on gold and silver?
GET THE FUCK OUT OF ANYTHING IN DOLLARS! That was his message.
I tend to agree.
Anyone else considering withrdrawing a few weeks worth of 'spending' cash from the bank and keeping it at home in a safe place?
Yes. I was a boy scout once.
Comrade Baron Von Helmut III writes:
At this point, why would Obama or McCain want to step into this huge barrel of shyte come Nov 5?
Comrade Baron Von Helmut III | 09.22.08 - 4:56 pm | #
Hahahahaha.
Hubris has no bounds.
Besides, Paulson is PROMISING this will fix it. Double cherry pinky promise. Or else.
Milkman writes:
Any politician who votes against the bailout bill will have an easy time getting re-elected this year.
yep , it's the Republicans that are on the hook ... despite what Bankster Paulson wishes to believe.
Just called Frank's office, got right through, if they tally the numbers of calls, they might be worth something.
Fair Economist,
Bernanke has done way more damage than you mention. He purposely foisted negative real interest rates on the world to bail out overvalued assets like houses and stocks.
The short term market is in the crapper because Greenspan and Bernake put it there with their folly to put floors under asset values.
Seriously, anyone with money is not going to lend short or long term for an extended period at negative real rates. Hence the capital flight.
Throwing good money after bad is not a solution.
kick them in the junk. Obviously then this is no crisis, right. I say let the whole damn thing fail. We deserve it
FutureNewsNetwork - "The U.S economy burned to the ground today, in large part due to a battle between both Congress and the President over whom was going to hold the firehose. Officials blamed the start of the fire on a faulty Electorate."
"To push this sham now with an EO after tacitly admitting it req'd Congressional approval"
Paraphrasing Teddy Roosevelt:
Instead of talking about approving the Act in two weeks, they will be talking about impeaching me in two weeks.
Milkman writes:
Any politician who votes against the bailout bill will have an easy time getting re-elected this year.
October will be brutal. By election day, anyone who can say "I voted against Paulson's plan" will be a regarded as a hero.
The economy will collapse no matter what they do in Congress.
That's a lot of confidence in a population who voted these charlatans in not once, but twice.
Other then people who are making an effort to pay attention, know one understands what's going on. Let alone comprehend what the bailout does.
Anonymous writes:
...Barney Frank is busy trying to get HR 6694 passed this week(reinstatement of Downpayment Assistance)...
If you can't afford the 3-3.5%, how are you going to pay the mortgage...
There's some policy I'm dying to embrace AGAIN!!!!
Here is one take on who is to blame!
How the Democrats Created the Financial Crisis: Kevin Hassett - Bloomberg.com
The Two-Headed Fire Breathing Dragon of hyper-inflation and super-deflation are growing and crushing consumers. It doesn't matter what camp you are in...if you are a consumer/worker/taxpayer(The Public) you are Dragon food. The Dragon likes his food cooked thus the fire.
There's another two-headed Dragon...the Treasury and the Federal Reserve. Hide from these dragons before you are incinerated. Don't play with the dragons.
you forgot c) took all the wrong lessons from all three periods which this references, america in the 30s, the 70s and japan in the 90s, and is hence possibly the worst candidate in the universe to do anything except make the problems exponentially worse.
I absolutely disagree with you. The lesson from all those is a) clean up the high finance fast and b) don't let the cleanup screw up low finance (working capital). Bernanke has done b) as well as possible. He's been iffy on a), but Bear, Lehman, AIG, and several others are down and the current headaches from Lehman going down show that the Fed didn't have to ability to BK the bad guys any faster.
"That's a lot of confidence in a population who voted these charlatans in not once, but twice."
45% of our nation believes that humanity is less than 10,000 years old, as recent pew research surveys show. not hard to find 50 million adults out of that group, though, in terms of voting, functional literacy certainly excludes a good portion.
I probably shouldn't post this, but what worries me, is that no matter what form the bailout takes, the stock and credit markets continue to tank, as the credit bubble deflates 25% or $10T, and the markets lose all confidence anything can be done.
Bernanke has done way more damage than you mention. He purposely foisted negative real interest rates on the world to bail out overvalued assets like houses and stocks.
I think negative interest rates are appropriate during bubble deflation. When all assets are overpriced, all investments should lose money.
Greenspan's Left Nut writes:
They would rather play chicken and risk a full blown revolution than do the right thing.
Everyone - EVERYONE - knew that before the last election. And yet - he got re-elected. With a bigger win than the first time 'round.
Before bitching about everyone else, it's time US voters took a good long hard look in the mirror.
I partially agree with you, but the '04 election was flipped electronically. Kerry won by roughly 52-47%. Machines did the rest.
"I absolutely disagree with you."
of course. you probably were inculcated with many years of orthodox indoctrination from the friedman school.
just like how those cardinals in the vatican circa 1600 were completely convinced that the sun revolved around the earth.
too bad the market agrees with me. i wish your fantasy world was a little closer to the truth, it sounds nice.
Tanya
You have got plenty of company in your confusion. I earned an MBA from a top school and it has taken me quite a while to get my mind wrapped around this one. The biggest confusion I had was why there was all this cash sloshing around and yet prices were not rising. I concluded this was because the cash was in the hands of a few people - entities - and not in the general public, where it would lead to price inflation.
Fair Economist is right that as this credit bubble is unwound it will drag down all asset classes. Several trillion dollars in mortgages need to be disappear to bring total mortgages as % of GDP back to anywhere near historical norms. My biggest fear is that will result in a collapse in the dollar.
Why would the treasury want to exempt these operations from public scrutiny and court action?
I can think of 700 billion reasons.
Look, what we're talking about here is getting the executive branch and the legislative branch going back and forth in an effort to see that this bailout doesn't happen. The writers of the Constitution intended this, exactly. The checks and balances forestall the kind of rush job Paulson's been trying to pull. The best outcome for this particular issue is for nothing to be done and the banks go bankrupt and we let bankruptcy judges sort things out in an orderly fashion.
BTW, I called Rep. Frank's number and got a real live human on the first ring. Amazing.
I'm coming around to supporting the plan. I just need to get to the Congressional printer and add in California's 20 billion deficit. Why should the banks have all the fun? California and San Diego have a few tons of bad paper we need to off load. And maybe the US government could make some money on that too!
They would rather play chicken and risk a full blown revolution than do the right thing.
Dp we have confidence in this economic team? I'll bet 75% would answer NO.
I think some may appreciate my current shitpile:
Nothing found for Node 119
I think negative interest rates are appropriate during bubble deflation. When all assets are overpriced, all investments should lose money.
Yeah right. Greenspan's negative real interest rates have done wonders.
What's the next bubble? Commodities? That will make people starve and freeze.
Remember(in history) when there were Kings and the unwashed public had to get on their knees and beg for mercy before their heads were chopped off.
Comrad Baron. I did that already 6 months ago, after pressuring the hub extremely. Also, insisted we buy a couple of gold coins to supplement the 100 oz silver bars we have. He thinks I'm a lot less crazy now. Have a pittance in the IRA to buy back into the stock mkt when it gets to a 10000 or maybe 9500. Just a 1000-1500 points to go! Sold at just about the high last fall, because I thought the high was nutz.
NPR had a bunch of somewhat skeptical people on and all the callers had something negative to say. NPR guy said that that Bush I wanted to create the RTC right away, but it took 6 months. In 6 months I think whatever it is that's gonna happen, will have happened already.
I just called Congressman Frank's office to express my support. They keep a tally. Our calls matter. Individually we count for little, but together we can make a mighty roar, today and on Nov 4.
Where am I? What happpened? What the hell is going on?! Am I still president?
asl hearts lenin writes:
When the normal corrupt malaise sets back in, I'll be moving back to my so-called hipster blogs. I'll miss you all. I mean that.
Only after the normal malaise sets back it? If that's the case, ASL, I suspect we'll be getting to know you pretty well.
I partially agree with you, but the '04 election was flipped electronically. Kerry won by roughly 52-47%. Machines did the rest.
Um, no. Sorry.
Fair Economist,
One more point. Your arguement about the importance of short term financing has merit. But you can't encourage short term financing with negative rates for long.
People are better off spending their money on things they will need rather than lending it short. That is essence of CPI inflation.
Bank of America site goes down
Bank of America site goes down | Digital Media - CNET News
Tara Burke cited "temporary systems issues" and declined to say what the cause was or whether it was related to Bank of America's proposed purchase of Merrill Lynch or other recent turmoil on Wall Street.
Greenspan's rates were indeed too low, I agree. They started the housing bubble, as we all know. But that's not saying real rates should never be negative any more than the crash caused by excessive rates shows they shouldn't be positive. You can make a case that Bernanke's rates were too low based on the commodity bubbles - but that was a small bubble compared to the housing bubble, and with house prices having their largest 1-year fall in all history last year you must admit Bernanke was doing a lot of deflating.
you didn't expect BAC, JPM, WFC etc NOT to join in the blackmail to a least some degree, did you?
The night we hit 1337 online, all nerds will be unmasked.
"I partially agree with you, but the '04 election was flipped electronically. Kerry won by roughly 52-47%. Machines did the rest."
Please post that tripe elsewhere. Comments such as yours are why many of us have had such a hard time getting J6P to take us seriously.
Several trillion dollars in mortgages need to be disappear to bring total mortgages as % of GDP back to anywhere near historical norms. My biggest fear is that will result in a collapse in the dollar.
These two statements don't square with each other. The dollar will not collapse if mortgages default. Defaults would reduce the supply of dollar credit.
The dollar WILL collapse if too many $ are created to support the unproductive mortgage debts.
One more point. Your arguement about the importance of short term financing has merit. But you can't encourage short term financing with negative rates for long.
Heartily agreed. I've suggested short-term financing be made available with penalty rates of an extra 1% or so. Long-term (more than a few months) support would be very problematic, so the goal would be to clean up the BKs fast so new companies could get capital and come in profitably making loans under the above-normal-market rates the Feds offer.
Don't worry...Bank of America uses Diebold ATMs.
"you must admit Bernanke was doing a lot of deflating."
uh, yeah, rent/own cost multiples hitting an even two in many coastal markets had nothing to do with it - and since when is keeping overnight rates around 3% while crude doubles, on average, every 2 years 'deflating'?
the problem isn't just that academic-type economists really believe that they are entitled to cosmic super-powers over the global economy, but that when they actually get a chance to put on the suit and wield these powers and pilot the helicopter, they only have negative effects.
remember when part of the fed mandate was protecting the purchasing power of the currency?
1337 is the smallest number m such that the reversal of m^1000 is prime.
The Prime Pages (prime number research, records and resources)
remember when part of the fed mandate was protecting the purchasing power of the currency?
Actually, no. When was that?
bank of america account holders requesting money transfers?
can't get my money online, better run to the bank and see if the doors are locked?
1.8 Trillion Bailout and counting....
Page not found - - CNBC.com
Up to $700 billion to buy assets from struggling institutions. The plan is aimed at sopping up residential and commercial mortgages from financial institutions but gives Treasury broad latitude.
Up to $50 billion from the Great Depression-era Exchange Stabilization Fund to guarantee principal in money market mutual funds to provide the same confidence that consumers have in federally insured bank deposits.
The Fed committed to make unspecified discount window loans to financial institutions to finance the purchase of assets from money market funds to aid redemptions.
At least $10 billion in Treasury direct purchases of mortgage-backed securities in September. In doubling the program on Friday, the Treasury said it may purchase even more in the months ahead.
Up to $144 billion in additional MBS purchases by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.The Treasury announced they would increase purchases up to the newly expanded investment portfolio limits of $850 billion each. On July 30, the Fannie portfolio stood at $758.1 billion with Freddie's at $798.2 billion.
$85 billion loan for AIG, which would give the Federal government a 79.9 percent stake and avoid a bankruptcy filing for the embattled insurer. AIG management will be dismissed.
At least $87 billion in repayments to JPMorgan Chase (JPM) for providing financing to underpin trades with units of bankrupt investment bank Lehman Brothers (LEH).
$200 billion for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. The Treasury will inject up to $100 billion into each institution by purchasing preferred stock to shore up their capital as needed. The deal puts the two housing finance firms under government control.
$300 billion for the Federal Housing Administration to refinance failing mortgage into new, reduced-principal loans with a federal guarantee, passed as part of a broad housing rescue bill.
$4 billion in grants to local communities to help them buy and repair homes abandoned due to mortgage foreclosures.
$29 billion in financing for JPMorgan Chase's government-brokered buyout of Bear Stearns in March. The Fed agreed to take $30 billion in questionable Bear assets as collateral, making JPMorgan liable for the first $1 billion in losses, while agreeing to shoulder any further losses.
At least $200 billion of currently outstanding loans to banks issued through the Fed's Term Auction Facility, which was recently expanded to allow for longer loans of 84 days alongside the previous 28-day credits.
Did you catch that? JPM has received 116 Billion Dollars on the bail out to date.
We need transparency! Now! Open the God Damn Books!
That is what bugs me....if the threat of cramming this legislation through is that the economy will grind to a halt because people couldnt roll CP or whatever other similar issue, why not do a little mental exercise like, uh, well, that is already happening, so if someone said you have a $1 trillion to throw at THAT problem, what would you do? Are we so incredibly close minded or so beholden to the existing IB thieves that the only thing we can do is find a way to save their skin?
When is the following going to take place in this country?
Dismissed employees beat CEO to death - Delhi - City - The Times of India
and with house prices having their largest 1-year fall in all history last year you must admit Bernanke was doing a lot of deflating.
Nonsense. Bernanke wasn't deflating. He was trying to re-flate without crushing the dollar and igniting inflation.
Bernanke was dealt a bum hand, but he should have only fought the battles he could win. He never had a prayer to support house assets, especially the ultra levered housing assets held by IBs.
I think what we need is for Conjure to take a trip to Washington where he can bite Paulson hard, really hard, where it hurts. You fill in the blank about where that might be. Maybe his stock holdings? Maybe something else he thinks he's been holding safely during his press conferences?
Re: Deal or No Deal
Holy crap, I just realized...
Hank Paulson is the Banker!
A prime fetish? Please stand next to the guy who is learning conversational klingon.
Where's Popeye...he needs to monitor these 'political' comments. Hey Rob Dawg, keeping politics off an Econ blog is tough nowadays...huh?
Got right through to Frank's office, second ring and a live person. She said she's pretty busy. Explained my view that keep the equity share in there but still is least of evils.
Suggested that Congress should let the whole thing die and take our lumps now rather than passing them on to our kids.
You mean Banker, who used to hang out here and try to make us think it was all a nothingburger, right? THAT Banker? Well, sure, that was one of his minions. But he personally didnt have time for that. He was too buys counting his money and figuring out where to buy his next house. Or how to learn the trick of not choking when accidentally drinking a shot of vodka.
Bernanke took over in 2006, about when the bubble was fully inflated. That's about when the Fed pushed up rates to pop the bubble too. Again, probably could have been better but not all that bad.
I can't access my BoA account.
But whatever happened to the WaMu sale?
Somehow this reminds me of David Copperfield when he met a older boy named Steerforth at school. Steerforth took David's money and bought goodies to host a party. David was so happy to be included at the party that he didn't register how completely he was paying for it and should have been the one to call the shots.
Lawyer Liz...still think political criticism is booooring!
Blah blah blah.
I am beginning to think Homer Simpson should be el presidente, and Mr. burns should be our new treasury secretary.
Someday this war's gonna end...
FRB: FAQs: Federal Reserve System
"...and stable prices"
the first bullet point.
looks like they've failed on the first 3 responsibilities. but .250 is pretty good for baseball.
Hank Paulson is the Banker!
Nemo | Homepage | 09.22.08 - 5:29 pm | #
Almost had me there, Nemo. But remember, Banker was surprised that SIVs were off balance sheet when they announced were going to bring them back on. I think Paulson always knew.
Time to march on DC and take back America!
I'm not sure whether this market can whipsaw back up to Friday's close - but one thing's for certain: Don Wolanchuk (the guy Weird Wally Wednesday is named after) is the most effective market contrary indicator on the Earth. (He came out of hiding super bullish as usual after Friday's gap up. Glad I doubled down on my shorts)
Just thought you'd all like to know that trivia. I'll be sure to share future signals from Mr. Wolanchuk as they arise.
Comrade CSC,
"The night we hit 1337 online, all nerds will be unmasked."
7@|-|7 \/\/0uld B3 50 |
we are in controlled deflationary spiral mode. which is fine. as long as the fed and the treasury are honest about what is happening: accepting a recession and preventing a finance lead depression.
this all about slowing down the rate of asset deflation. no more. no less. slow it down enough so the market can restructure itself without ensuing panic on Wall Street or Main Street.
"SRHappyrenter writes:
Got right through to Frank's office, second ring and a live person. She said she's pretty busy. Explained my view that keep the equity share in there but still is least of evils.
Suggested that Congress should let the whole thing die and take our lumps now rather than passing them on to our kids."
Thank you SRHappyRenter.
I called on my lunch break today...tried three times. First two times the switchboard number was busy. Third time I got to my senators office but that line was busy. I was very happy the lines were busy.
I'll call again tomorrow.
guest--I never thought political criticism is boring. met the hub at a Barry Goldwater meeting.
I did think your conversation with Popeye was boring, was it a week ago? (seems like foreever), but you have shaped up nicely.
BOA . com is up now
Deal or jail. And with a bankrupt govt., jail may be a little iffy place to be.
AlleM,
I think the war is ending.
Some big countries have been wiped out or crippled (BS, LEH, GS, MS ...) , and are starting to make peace, and a new order is emerging.
I think it's time to change the tag line.
--Fewlesh
Time to march on DC and take back America!
Let's meet at the Starbucks at 7th and Pennsylvania.
Fair Economist,
Consider:
U.S. house prices have risen by nearly 25 percent over the past two years, noted Bernanke, currently chairman of the president's Council of Economic Advisers, in testimony to Congress's Joint Economic Committee. But these increases, he said, "largely reflect strong economic fundamentals," such as strong growth in jobs, incomes and the number of new households.
I rest my case.
Comrade Misean --
Remember, type < for less-than...
Nothing to see here, move along...
So, Paulson is going to see to it that the taxpayers are the bagholders. Can we pick paper or plastic?
Containment sucks, evidently.
OMG - Everyone remember that awful thread a few weeks back (as LawyerLiz referenced) where the general conclusion was that it was the worst thread ever - and I mentioned how a week from then we'd have totally forgotten it?
It does seem like forever ago.
Congress' Bridge "loan" to nowhere...
Angry Saver
Good point; I was thinking that highly inflationary fiscal and monetary policies (e.g. low FFR and bailouts) will be implemented to keep things working while the mortgages are defaulted upon, worked out, and otherwise canceled. Those steps would devalue the dollar.
Time to put the Banksters in their place ...
They made this mess ... they pay for it ...
First time post. Check this out:
Tiny URL - create a shorter link
FDR's fireside chat about the 1933 banking crisis. You will shit when you hear it. History repeats itself. Thanks for all the knowledge everyone, and good luck.
LS
AS - Okay, that's pretty bad. But his actions as Fed chief have been sane, unlike his words beforehand. Note: that was as head of the CEA, when licking Bush's *** was part of his job description.
so wheres that Jas during all this?
would it be in bad taste to slap him/her
5 right now?
I called my senator this morning. He's on the banking committee. I emphasized the unconstitutionality of some of the provisions and begged him not to roll over for a Bush rush job again.
If the price of "The System" is our freedoms, then down with it!
Persecuted Comrade Anonymouse said: "I'm not sure whether this market can whipsaw back up to Friday's close - but one thing's for certain: Don Wolanchuk (the guy Weird Wally Wednesday is named after) is the most effective market contrary indicator on the Earth. (He came out of hiding super bullish as usual after Friday's gap up. Glad I doubled down on my shorts)..."
Actually, there's a guy I met on the Internets several years ago, an old-timer who's been managing money since the 60's, and the latest message I got from him is that he's bullish, too.
He said absolutely nothing about housing, sub-prime, credit-crunch, bail-out, etc., etc. He simply said that last week there was a rare but also reliable signal of a climax low in the stock market, and he was buying.
I've spent considerable time studying the same indicator (and others), which is one of the reasons I've gone to 75%+ invested.
Sebastian
I did the "few weeks spare cash hidden at home" a few months ago.
I'm doubling down this week.
I'm also starting to wonder whether this ride may get a bit bumpy. While the country is technologically capable of providing food and water to all in normal times, we may see some non-normal times.
Those with small children may want to consider how you would take care of them during a period when critical items may be intermittently in short supply: powdered milk, bottled water, and basic foodstuffs... toilet paper...
Basically, this is a good time to recheck your emergency supplies. Like any good insurance policy, you should never need it. But if you do need it, you're really gonna need it!
We need a bank holiday ...
Look at the books ...
Liquidate insolvent banks ...
Recapitalize good banks ...
simple ...
Misean, I hate it when you talk computer. Please provide a translation for those like me who can't even read one page of XXX Computer Stuff for Dummies. I found I could read the IRS code with more pleasure (that is zero).
I am profoundly greatful that people like you exist (you may not be so greatful that lawyers exist), but trying to understand this stuff is hopeless for me. I could probably re-learn algebra, Calc and Diffy Q before I could pass even a beginning computer course.
Well, Monday is over and Paul is still not king.
Thank you fellow phone callers, if we go down, we can say we did a little something to hold on the the Republic.
For the last year or so and recently on THIS Econ blog, I was just bitching about THE LAST SEVEN YEARS of abuse of power, unaccountability, ignored sudpoenas, and dirty tricks...that's all.
Got into a spinach food fight over saying the sky was falling. The blog heat is heating up now though as the losses are realized. But I'll try not be a fear monger since reports now in the mainstream media will serve that function.
Shouldn't the subject of executive compensation be "when are you going to repay it"?
To whomever replied to my contrary indicator comment (I'm not speaking directly to this guy):
SPX confirmed A-B=C-D down on a weekly to 1077. That'a a 1:1 extension. It could be a 1:1.382, 1:1.50, or 1:1.618 extension (the latter would be around 960, and an immediate change of trend).
Comrade Nemo,
"Remember, type < for less-than..."
Copy that.
Nostrovia,
sebastian, i'm guessing you invested bullishly with money borrowed on your HELOC? you go!
Comrade Misean,
Did you mean Comrade Misesean?
Moody's lowers rating on Washington Mutual Bank
Forbes.com File Not Found
Moody's Investors Service on Monday downgraded the financial strength rating of Washington Mutual Inc.'s main bank subsidiary to "E," its lowest rating, saying the thrift's capital is insufficient to absorb its mortgage losses.
looks like we have a done deal, according to media reports, with the Democrats serving to make an outrageous giveaway of public funds acceptable in their role as purported opposition, but don't worry, we will get equity in some worthless institutions and the congress will exercise oversight through the creation of a committee that will become one of the most sought after assignments because of the access to financial sector money for political campaigns
A sudpoena is a subpoena that's ignored. Or a dudpoena. There will be lots of dudpoenas coming.
Comrade Sebastion...75% invested in what...weapons systems, Haliburton, long oil, tasers, etc. maybe?
unhappyCakeEater writes:
so wheres that Jas during all this?
I wanna know where ipodius is. I've been waiting for him to comment on what a great job Ben Bernanke has been doing through all this and how the bailout is an unfortunate but necessary measure to keep the Rube Goldberg world financial machine running. Not to mention that his oil call seems to be unraveling as well.
Tell Comrade Paulson no perestroika without glasnost.
-GSD
lawyerliz, it's just a geek thing. you know kids today!
leet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
met your hubby at a Goldwater event, willikers, guess i'm not the only one here who had parents in the last depression.