And here we see the real problem... The financial system is built on trust, right? But all year, we have seen a parade of CEOs come on TV to say how "strong" their capital position is just days before they go bankrupt. We have leadership in the Administration and the Fed and the FDIC lying over and over about the magnitude of the crisis.
And so now it is impossible for anyone to believe anything that comes out of the mouth of any CEO, politician, or public official.
Trust is very hard to earn and very easy to lose. I honestly do not see how handing $700B to the same entities that created the crisis is going to restore it.
from last thread, re: Russian nuke sub near US waters - think Putin answered Shrub's call
Shrub - Hehehe, Pootin, can you do me a lil' favor?
Putin - (Eyes rolling) what now, my friend?
Shrub - I need a lil distraction. Can you send some warships nearby? Gotta rattle them sabres a lil bit.
Putin - No problem, comrade. See you in Paraguay?
I have some fundamental questions about the actual mechanics of the plan.
BB and HP seem to be pressing that the lockup of the market for short term commercial paper is the "Armageddon" they are warning us about. If so, how does the taxpayer buying MBS, CDOs and other "toxic debt" liquefy the market for short term CP?
Also, they are saying that once the taxpayer buys these securities, the government will be in a better position to modify loans and try to avoid foreclosing on homeowners. As I understand it, the owner of a derivative security based on slices of a pool of loans, would most likely not be the servicer for those loans. Are they saying that they will be acquiring servicing rights somehow? How does owning tiny slices of pooled loans (maybe sliced and pooled a couple times- CDO^2) give them any ability to modify the underlying loans?
If someone with actual knowledge on these mechanics could comment, it would be appreciated. I know there are posters here with that knowledge- Tanta?, CR?
(a) The bombing of Iran
(b) An Executive Order to pass the bailout plan, bypassing Congress
(c) Suspension of the upcoming election
(d) All of the above
Good video. But we should be patting ourselves on the back more often than jeering these a-holes. We got it right - on the dime. These idiots are still clueless as to the severity over the next decade plus.
I think Bernanke's comments about Lehman will lead to more of the CEO surprises. If I remember correctly, he said that Lehman wasn't bailed out in part because investors had time to react to the firm's failure.
This just gives firms all the more incentive to hide problems if they want a bailout.
I think the sentiment is about right regarding Bush's speech. If he can't get P&B to convince congress, you think appealing to 19 percent of the people that still listen to him is gonna make much of a difference?
I still can't believe some of my coworkers (college educated/middle income/Republicans - if that matters) said they don't care about this economic mess. Yeah - it'll only effect the lives of your kids until they're ... dead.
I think it's good that Congress is about to go on recess.They will have to face their constituents if they pass this and they know from all the phone calls how the constituents feel.
What about something for people who own their home free and clear, never refinanced or got a HELOC, and generally are watching this cluster****, highly pissed off?
Bringing Down Wall Street as Ratings Let Loose Subprime Scourge
By Elliot Blair Smith
Sept. 24 (Bloomberg) -- Frank Raiter says his former employer, Standard & Poor's, placed a ``For Sale'' sign on its reputation on March 20, 2001. That day, a member of an S&P executive committee ordered him, the company's top mortgage official, to grade a real estate investment he'd never reviewed.
S&P was competing for fees on a $484 million deal called Pinstripe I CDO Ltd., Raiter says. Pinstripe was one of the new structured-finance products driving Wall Street's growth. It would buy mortgage securities that only an S&P competitor had analyzed; piggybacking on the rating violated company policy, according to internal e-mails reviewed by Bloomberg.
What about something for people who own their home free and clear, never refinanced or got a HELOC, and generally are watching this cluster****, highly pissed off?
State and local government knock-on effects continue to pile up...
Muni Bond Yields Rise to 6-Year High Amid Variable-Rate Squeeze
By Jeremy R. Cooke
Sept. 24 (Bloomberg) -- Tax-exempt bonds fell for the 10th day this month, driving 30-year benchmark yields to the highest in more than six years, as fallout from upheaval in the financial industry roiled the U.S. municipal market.
Variable interest rates on tax-exempt debt soared to a record, higher than long-term, fixed-rate yields, boosting concern that investors who borrow to finance bond holdings are being forced to sell amid weak demand.
Issuers have postponed more than $7 billion in planned borrowing, after Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. sought bankruptcy protection Sept. 15, sparking a shakeup that's reshaped Wall Street and led the U.S. government to propose a $700 billion rescue. State and local governments also face costs as high as 9 percent on variable-rate demand notes amid outflows from money- market mutual funds that continued yesterday. Muni Bond Yields Rise to 6-Year High Amid Variable-Rate Squeeze - Bloomberg.com
Persecuted, many of the Reps I know are deep in denial right now. They don't want to talk about it because they know their votes for Bush led to this debacle. To talk about it simply reminds them of what they've done...
Understand the financial system bailout is not about credit. Lending has gone on for 5000 years. This is about preserving the financial engineering investment industry that co-opted lending and turned its derivatives into gambling instruments. Allowing bookies to go out of business will not affect sports scores except perhaps reducing the hazard of point shaving.
I'll talk to Bxxxxx Mxxxxx in the district to make sure the message gets through. Thanks for your time and service.
That's the one thing that really makes me fearful, that these guys are just too steeped in the conventional wisdom. It's kind of like leaving it to the Hoover administration to clean up in 1932.
They don't want to talk about it because they know their votes for Bush led to this debacle. To talk about it simply reminds them of what they've done...
OK, I admit, I take some of the blame for 2000.
But how did you Dems manage to nominate the one guy on Earth who could not defeat W in 2004?
CR - thank you. You da man. You and Dr. Krugman are both onto these MotherFs..... we're just born and bred... dare I say it? DOPES!
Jas just shakes his head and mp / Conjure laugh loudly smoking cigars as they prepare to do a BearScreamer...Neil is enjoying his popcorn while AllenM hopes for a war to end someday even as another one starts... Nemo, Misean, energycon read up on Soviet literature... Just another Canadian and Another Canadian avec popcorn just chuckle at our foolishness...
Dollars cant be found - no one has them or wants them... Banks dont trust each other... And the taxpayers are told to trust the banks...and hold sticks of dynamite.. gotta love it people!
NEW YORK (Reuters) - KPS, a private equity firm specializing in buying underperforming or distressed businesses, expects the economy to be in a recession for three to four years, according to co-founder and Managing Partner Michael Psaros.
If someone with actual knowledge on these mechanics could comment, it would be appreciated. I know there are posters here with that knowledge- Tanta?, CR?
deb
I had the same questions and the same lack of knowledge on exactly how moving this junk Hanky Panky's way will suddenly (magically?) release this torrent of credit. Hanky Panky keeps going back to housing and foreclosures as the problem. None of the forclosures are being done by these investment banks. I still fail to see how not doing something like the RFC wouldn't kill two birds with one stone. An RTC could help people stay in their homes (fixes the vacant home problem and keeps payments coming in to the bank) and it would make those bundled loans that the IBs own more attractive.
What am I missing?
Pelosi and Reid should quietly tell their GOP minority leaders that the GOP must vote first on whatever bill emerges. If the GOP doesn't have GOP majority support (including the GOP leadership) for the bill in each house (including McCain in the Senate), then the Dems won't supply enough votes to pass the bills.
The Repubs obviously want a bailout more than the Dems (in terms of ideology), so make them supply their votes to pass it or f*ck themselves.
LOL Nemo, ok no politics...I guess you wouldn't like my bailout plan then either...All 54 million people that voted for him in 04 should send a check for 35K to Paulson, problem solved! I'll stop...
mjc writes:
What about something for people who own their home free and clear, never refinanced or got a HELOC, and generally are watching this cluster****, highly pissed off?"
... but that is just evidence that you have not been spending enough right there!
Sorry if this has been posted already, but here is a copy of the draft bailout plan from TPM.
Looks like they are going to have oversight and get equity. I was hoping for a formal way to price the securities besides trusting the people who got us into this mess.
Just a thought....maybe the democrats as well as the republicans are to blame for this fiasco. Our government as a whole has failed us and it is intellectually dishonest to pin the blame solely on one group.
[I]snt it bizarre to have officials who miscalled so much ... confidently declaring that they know better than the market what a broad class of securities is worth?
Either they're incompetent or they were deliberately misleading people.
Given that Paulson has in fact been spectacularly successful in business, I have to suspect it's the latter.
I don't know what his motives would be for saying something that he doesn't believe, only I have observed that on Wall Street it is often very profitable to keep quite about some problem or wrongdoing you are very much aware of.
I recall reading an account of one researcher who went to Wall Street in 1999 and asked some of the traders on the floor if they thought there was a bubble in tech stocks. He was surprised by the response most of them gave:
"Of course there's a bubble."
In seems like the most profitable thing Wall Street could have done this past decade is make bad predictions. It kind of makes you think maybe the idea crossed their minds.
By the afternoon of March 3 scarcely a bank in the country was open to do business. Proclamations temporarily closing them in whole or in part had been issued by the Governors in almost all the states.
It was then that I issued the proclamation providing for the nation-wide bank holiday, and this was the first step in the Government's reconstruction of our financial and economic fabric.
The second step was the legislation promptly and patriotically passed by the Congress confirming my proclamation and broadening my powers so that it became possible in view of the requirement of time to entend (sic) the holiday and lift the ban of that holiday gradually. This law also gave authority to develop a program of rehabilitation of our banking facilities. I want to tell our citizens in every part of the Nation that the national Congress -- Republicans and Democrats alike -- showed by this action a devotion to public welfare and a realization of the emergency and the necessity for speed that it is difficult to match in our history."""
Don't know if it has been posted on CR yet. I lost track of the threads two hours ago due to work . . . and then wanted to check first to see if Dick Cheney had suspended the Constitution. Seems not, yet, though McCain perhaps is being suspended after being hoist by his own petard
"What about something for people who own their home free and clear, never refinanced or got a HELOC, and generally are watching this cluster****, highly pissed off?"
Lets see you will get higher inflation, higher intrest rates and higher taxes. See everything will go up but your standard of living.
I think the paulson plan is just a distraction until the real plan is executed.
The financial looting is complete. The elite have already taken control of the real assets. Now they will let collapse happen so they can buy the rest up for pennies on the dollar.
With Congress preoccupied with the massive, $700 billion bailout plan for the financial industry, General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler have finally secured Part One of their own federal rescue plan. A bill set to be passed by Congress and signed by President Bush as early as this weekendseparate from the controversial Wall Street bailout planincludes $25 billion in loans for the beleaguered Detroit automakers and several of their suppliers. "It seemed like a lot when we first started pushing this," says Democratic Sen. Debbie Stabenow of Michigan, one of the bill's sponsors. "Suddenly, it seems so small."
... There's more aid coming. This year's $25 billion is just a down payment. The automakers now plan to ask the government for another $25 billion in loans next year. It's just spare change, after all.
Seems the major categories are there, but very little meat on the bones
a) Transparency - good, real time public posting of treasury actions, or max 48 hours lag
b) Oversight - unclear whether there is any veto authority for oversight group, judiciary...seems unlikely...so what is this worth?
c)Some talk on compensation limits and warrants for "direct purchase from a company" - just a draft, so no specifics and unclear which companies would be outside purview, i.e. what would be an "indirect purchase from a company"?
Look - I don't give a damn who "wins" this fauxlection. I'm more interested than ever how the events of the past 2-3 weeks and the upcoming bailout will affect the labor market, housing sales/prices, etc. And I don't think they'll make one iota positive contribution. I'm still convinced the recession we're in has barely started, and that by Spring '09 personal consumption will fall off a cliff and employment will follow. Just thought I'd throw that out there.
Bush is going to be THE CLOSER tonight for this stinky banking bailout 'deal'.
He'll close the SALE with the trusty fear-mongering hard sale CLOSE.
A negative close always works with the Marks, the American public, but he'll sell this to the WORLD too, Jas, and THEY will buy it too!
Bet on this CRAP passing by Monday or Tuesday with another bank failure or two this weekend and a sharp drop(controlled panic sell off) in stocks Friday and Monday. Maybe this Turde will be 'passed' before Friday depending on how strong Bush's negative hard sell CLOSE is.
I'm betting Friday it's a Done Deal.
BB and HP seem to be pressing that the lockup of the market for short term commercial paper is the "Armageddon" they are warning us about. If so, how does the taxpayer buying MBS, CDOs and other "toxic debt" liquefy the market for short term CP?
It doesn't,really. The short-term CP market only improves insofar as they give so much money they cover all the losses on credit from the bubble.
Surprisingly, it appears that Fed liquidity measures would be adequate for the commercial paper market. Overall commercial paper is actually up, according to the commercial paper volume report. The reason we're seeing a squeeze is that short-term (1 to 3 months) is down, with everything shifting into ultra-short ( less than 20 day) paper. This points to the Fed discount and auction windows as the source; the Fed runs most windows as overnight lending. The Fed could keep the short-term commercial paper market going just by opening another window with 30-90 day term securities. It might need to start accepting A2/P2 paper as collateral (with appropriate discounts). Maybe. In any case this problem appears manageable without blowing 700 billion on shady paper and flimsy equity.
This is effectively the plan many here have suggested of having the Feds make working capital loans directly. Here the Feds provide the capital, but the banks effectively subcontract the job of choosing the exact recipients and terms. It's an endrun about the fact that the Fed doesn't have the expertise to go into direct lending on short notice.
The problem with the general analysis of the plan is that:
X = What they're not telling us. (aka: What BB and HP said behind that behind that closed door.)
That's what needs to be addressed.
My guess is that it may have gone something like this:
"If we don't cough up the cash, then what's still left standing of the global market will tank the dollar. Then they'll sell US off like so many bad assets (ie...soon each state will have it's own passport)."
It's time to pay! The question is: Do they take Visa?
Seriously, the real question is: Do we believe them?
What's in your wallet?
1. US budget deficit: 9 trillion dollars and growing
2.Iraq & Afghanistan War: 1 trillion and counting
3. Wall Street bailout: $700 billion and then some
$.Bernanke & Paulson comedy sideshow: Priceless.
American Taxpayers Expressed, Wall Street won't leave home without them
Meat producers are all suffering as the costs for key ingredients like corn are high. The companies can't simply raise prices because an oversupply of meat on the market is keeping prices down. So they're cutting production in a bid to boost prices higher and trying to get a better control on expenses.
The political world is in as much of a tail spin as the financial. LOL. McCain has suspended his campaign. Obama and the Univ of Misissippi say the debate goes on. Obama gets 1 1/2 hour address tp the American people?
catholic girl, Cramer says that because that's what Bernake and Paulson have been saying all day. Do this, or the American worker will lose their jobs, their homes, their savings.
All day they've been saying this. They just don't have any details.
I won't be watching Bush tonight. This is making me sick . I wish that there was something else ( beside the calls and letters to congress )that I could to do to stop this robbery .
I see another bailout: "They have a tremendous amount of debt. They've been unprofitable for many quarters and they're in poor financial health," she said. "They're probably the weakest of all the meat packers."
According to the company's most recent annual report, it carried $1.3 billion in long-term debt at the end of 2007, more than doubling from the previous year. The debt was largely due to its $1.1 billion buyout of rival Gold Kist Inc. in early 2007.
Single acts of tyranny may be ascribed to the accidental opinion of a day; but a series of oppressions, begun at a distinguished period and pursued unalterably through every change of ministers, too plainly prove a deliberate, systematic plan of reducing [a people] to slavery." --Thomas Jefferson: Rights of British America, 1774. (*) ME 1:193, Papers 1:125
More evidence that Hank Is Not a Plan. {{ducks}} But seriously, CR has a great point that if these guys were calling the bottom of the market 18 months ago, how can you trust them to be calling the bottom on all of this bad debt? What, precisely, are their credentials? I've seen venture cap pitches that showed more thought than this plan.
"By the afternoon of March 3 scarcely a bank in the country was open to do business. Proclamations temporarily closing them in whole or in part had been issued by the Governors in almost all the states.
It was then that I issued the proclamation providing for the nation-wide bank holiday, and this was the first step in the Government's reconstruction of our financial and economic fabric.
The second step was the legislation promptly and patriotically passed by the Congress confirming my proclamation and broadening my powers so that it became possible in view of the requirement of time to entend (sic) the holiday and lift the ban of that holiday gradually. This law also gave authority to develop a program of rehabilitation of our banking facilities. I want to tell our citizens in every part of the Nation that the national Congress -- Republicans and Democrats alike -- showed by this action a devotion to public welfare and a realization of the emergency and the necessity for speed that it is difficult to match in our history."
I say McCain took step one, to suspend his campaign, step two, lock arms with Bush, step three, declare that Bush remain in office and that elections will be suspended..
I say McCain took step one, to suspend his campaign, step two, lock arms with Bush, step three, declare that Bush remain in office and that elections will be suspended..
comrade naked kings
And the purchase of pitchforks at HD and Lowes will save American manufacturing. LOL
how can you trust them to be calling the bottom on all of this bad debt? What, precisely, are their credentials?
Well, in Paulson's case it's a lifetime of successfully convincing others that the asset he's selling them is really worth more than they're paying him.
Hey guys, does anyone but think that B&B are not putting all the cards on the table? Are they really worried about currency collapse not a recession/depression and high interest rates?
I expect for Bush to attempt to dig up the body of the Monroe Doctrine as part of his speech tonight (Russian fleet in the Gulf of Mexico - with Venezuela).
Oh, and mention 9/11 a few dozen times, and allude to opposition to bailout is coming from terrorists (only 10 times).
Last paragraph, for use if necessary:
I declare Martial Law in the US until 6/30/09, and under the power of the unitary presidency cancel the election in Nov. I have also directed that the DoD close the US Capitol Building and prevent any assemblies of any kind within and without the two block area of that building.
Were these guys "wrong?" Did they believe what they were saying then? If not, what do they believe today?
Transparency, equity etc. are all important. More important, moving forward, is the truth: Tell us what is happening, and what will happen. How much will it cost me personally? Won't we likely face a severe and prolonged recession no matter what happens, because of all the non-productive loans made and not repaid? Stop trying to soothe us with phony reassurances as if we were a bunch of worried kids. Treat us more like adults--and maybe we'll start acting more like adults. It usually works with MY kids.
"I still can't believe some of my coworkers (college educated/middle income/Dems - if that matters) said they don't care about this economic mess. "
Same crowd, different nominal party, same indifference. Let's see what the third quarter 401k statements do to change their tune.
Even friends who are aware are saying they'll pull their coop off the market for a while or "cut back".
Yeah, that'll work.
You wanted change? Big changes coming all.
Those of you still expecting a reach around will be saddened to learn the meaning of a "Hot Karl" the hard way.
Lean in close tonight when the President speaks. He will explain the Hot Karl to the people.
Oh, and if you haven't heard, Christmas is cancelled.
One possibility is our foreign holders of our treasuries-debt fear that the USA may unanimously declare "it sucks to be you" and walk away. How many times has the USofA made loans to foreign countries that was never repaid? Too many times. Hell, which country pays for our foreign military patrols via water, air, and land? Europe? no. Japan? no. South Korea? no. Tawain? no. All of Europe? no. UAE? no. Only one pays the, USA taxpayers. Our military is off on foreign military assignments, nowhere near our own shores to protect us.
I think there are quite a few things going around, that would have normally captured the attention of the bailout opposition, if not for the $700 billion "program". For e.g., someone above mentioned that the $25 billion bailout for the auto makers will be signed by Bush this weekend. How could this get under the radar?
How many other such "programs" are passing under the radar, just because the attention is now diverted to this 700 pound gorilla?
Angry Renter writes:
There's a new public letter from the CEO of BB & T bank:
"There is no panic on Main Street and in sound financial institutions. The problems are in high-risk financial institutions and on Wall Street."
~~~~~~
Yep, they are bailing out the big boys ... 99.9 % of this toxic paper is at less than 25-30 institutions ... all Wall Streeters !
Barring other more reasonable explanations, methinks we need to alert Krugman, Josh Marshall, Andrew Sullivan post haste re: liquidity draining ops. We need to get this out there.
I don't have any faith in Chris Dodd or his plan either. Dodd is dope and was on the take from Countrywide in my view.
FWIW, his father was also a U.S. Senator. A shady one too. Chris Dodd's father was censured by congress for financial improprieties during his tenure as a Senator from CONnecticut.
Barring other more reasonable explanations, methinks we need to alert Krugman, Josh Marshall, Andrew Sullivan post haste re: liquidity draining ops. We need to get this out there.
damondidit | 09.24.08 - 6:45 pm | #
The US government is buying bad debt for $700 billion. Now Washington is asking other countries to jump in and help, too, but the Germans are bowing out. Believing that the rescue package sends the wrong signal, experts from the country's leading economics think tanks argue it's the right call.
And the institutions that are having a rough time because they can't find investors will go broke. "That step would send the right signal to the market," Dietrich says, adding that those who were performing the worst wouldn't be rewarded in such as situation -- as they are being now.
What are the odds the Dodd plan doesn't put the interests (literally) of Angelo Mozillo and wall street ahead of main street? A guy on the take from the mortgage industry is going to be in charge of bailing out the mortgage mess. WTF!
And here we see the real problem... The financial system is built on trust, right?
Last I checked money was just a form of credit issued by the government, so yeah, the most basic elements of our financial system are nothing more than promises printed on fancy paper. Financial assets are meaningless without trust.
Everybody still seems to believe, though, that the financial system is built on liquidity, and that a solution to this crisis can be formulated solely in terms of market mechanics.
Nobody wants to confront the reality that the is really a crisis of trust, because it becomes a vastly more difficult issue to resolve and one that isn't going respond in any meaningful way to quick fix bailouts.
There are legitimate reason for the Fed to drain liquidity. They did two huge ops last week that presumably were to deal with very short-term issues - a loan to JPM to unwind Lehman and an overnight window for the near-lockup of the bank clearance mechanisms. Both of those were more than 100 billion, and should be pulled back as soon as possible.
Yes, a crisis of trust, and confidence, and solvency, liquidity, credit, debt, production, consumption, honesty, transparency, intelligence, you name it. The rot is nearly total
As much as I dislike this plan, I have to admire Paulson and Bernanke's stamina over the past few days.
Anyone who's been in meetings all day or given long presentations knows how draining this can be...coupled with the long weekends trying to save the world. These guys must be exhausted.
There are legitimate reason for the Fed to drain liquidity. They did two huge ops last week that presumably were to deal with very short-term issues - a loan to JPM to unwind Lehman and an overnight window for the near-lockup of the bank clearance mechanisms. Both of those were more than 100 billion, and should be pulled back as soon as possible.
Exactly. Denninger is a populist fool and agitator.
King Paulson and Czar Bernanke know more than just what a class of securities is worth - they are willing to bet YOUR money (against their friends) that they "know better" what securities in the largest, most analyzed market (MBS) in the world things they are worth.
This goes beyond chutzpah and fraud - this goes to criminality. Time for a REVOLUTION! Throw these guys out on their bum! Neither Obama nor McCain is the answer - we need to destroy the "two-"party system and get a real choice.
still beating the FDR / Pearl Harbor conspiracy horse are we ?
Yes ... he allowed 4,000 Americans to be slaughtered. Just as Bush allowed 3,000 to die on 9/11.
Widespread belief in superstition and conspiracy is evident in any declining of society. It's also evident in people who feel helpless and unable to explain reality.
You guys are not paying attention. Do we have to crank it up a notch? You know, a financial 9/11. Example. WAMU goes under, FDIC drained, runs on weak banks. Country will go hysterical. It will only take a week and Congress will up the bailout to $1.2T and pass it unanamously. So take your medicine right now or we will have a lot more for you next week.
I expect Bush to push the big red "FEAR" button hard. Hey, he has to make a living for a few years, starting very shortly.
Expecting a wild card also. Something premptive that will stun some people. Of course, they will screw it up somehow, but it will buy time.
These guys are scared. Something is set to blow up and they were on a timetable. Congress has messed the "PLAN" up. I think I hear Chinese laughter behind closed doors.
What about something for people who own their home free and clear, never refinanced or got a HELOC, and generally are watching this cluster****, highly pissed off?
mjc
I think you know what we get. A jug to p*** in, if we're lucky.
still beating the FDR / Pearl Harbor conspiracy horse are we ?
NOooo ... but FDR knew that the time had arrived ...
they'd probably been waiting for something to happen for months ... it could have been an attack on the Phillipines if Pearl harbor attack had not occurred/
After watching this grilling I think this is a fantastic idea...
The American people should be able to elect regular citizens and put their congressman and senators in front of the camera and demand why they go home on vacations without solving the social security crisis, education issues, etc.
They should be publicly flogged in public for wasting our money and producing NO results, while they stutter giving lame excuses. Democrats and Republicans alike.
crispy& cole (COINS!!!) writes:
Anybody stocking up on can goods and looting their ATM?
Never thought I'd do it, but I'm taking a 4 hour NRA intro course to firearms Saturday morning and purchasing a small arms. I don't own glod but I want to kill.
They should be publicly flogged in public for wasting our money and producing NO results, while they stutter giving lame excuses. Democrats and Republicans alike.
raphael
No results are better than 700 billion in bad results ...
But theres another possible explanation, which I find terrifyingly plausible: the plan came first, and all this stuff about price discovery is an after-the-fact rationalization, invented when people started asking questions.
You guys are not paying attention. Do we have to crank it up a notch? You know, a financial 9/11. Example. WAMU goes under, FDIC drained, runs on weak banks. Country will go hysterical. It will only take a week and Congress will up the bailout to $1.2T and pass it unanamously. So take your medicine right now or we will have a lot more for you next week.
If we're really on the immediate verge of that kind of event, $700 billion will solve nothing. In any case, both Paulson & Bernanke have made it apparent (without saying so explicitly) that they feel $700 is just the beginning.
Bush has No cred ... whatever he says people will believe none of it ... and rightfully so ...
He's kind of like a weather vane with the arrow pointing backwards. As long as you understand that it's always exactly wrong, it can still provide you with useful information.
When Congress started asking yesterday, why is this such an emergency, tell the American people why such fast action is needed, Paulsen/Bernake said we can't tell you why..
.. it's a secret.
Why is it a secret? Because they don't want the public to know just how bad it is. Because it would panic the public and they don't want a panic. They've already had a run on the money markets.
So if Bush is going on TV today and present more fluff to the public, trust us, etc., it's just a waste of time. If he tells the truth, it'd be panic. So what will he do, any bets?
It just occurred to me that maybe Bush will tell us that Bin Laden has been located in a Countrywide produced MBS, or in the basement of a foreclosed house, or that the Ghost of Saddam will come back unless we give Paulson a blank check with no oversight or review.
I would be persuaded. Wouldn't you?
What if he says that if we approve the Paulson plan with no strings, nice and clean, then the citizens of Wall St will greet us as liberators and through flowers at us?
Actually, did anyone think Hank and the lads made a deal with unknown entities. As in, we will have the money to you by Monday, until then, no need to do xxxxx.
"Oh, and if you haven't heard, Christmas is cancelled."
You can take THAT to the bank.
mp
You know it's funny. Several years ago when my husband was alive and we had been successful for a few years, we sat down and looked at our tree and the presents came out 4 ft from the tree. We looked at each other and said...never again. So for many years, and even after he passed, the deal with my family has been one purchased present and the rest handmade.
F*** them, we'll still have Christams at my house.
How much more toxic waste can the Fed take on in repo auctions? Is this bailout as much as cleaning out the Fed's balance sheet as it is the banks?
Dean
Exactly why we need to look at their books ... and take them over if they are insolvent ...
"But theres another possible explanation, which I find terrifyingly plausible: the plan came first,..."
Well, hell yes. I said this morning they couldn't even keep their own "facts" straight. They didn't do their homework. No planning, no staffing, nothing.
Widespread belief in superstition and conspiracy is evident in any declining of society. It's also evident in people who feel helpless and unable to explain reality.
I am certain you believed every word of the Gulf of Tonkin incident and the Powell speech at the U.N.
There are lots of reasons to distrust what government says. Ever read Orwell? He knew it quite well. Terming something a conspiracy theory and therefore dismissing is the ultimate win for the ways of the Ministry of Truth, i.e. the establishment.
Don't trust anything Government/Big Business say. Conspiracy theories spawn a healthy debate of about truth and lies.
I think Krugman is right about BB and HP. they just cooked up "price discovery" yesterday. Before that they really had no plan, just a demand for money.
We are staring deep into the depths of an incompetence so incredible that Iraq and Katrina almost pale in comparison.
Good. If I remember you are in Florida. If you get over to the Charlotte County area and want to shoot there is a pretty good range at Babcock Webb. My treat. Any of my weapons,I'll even pick up the ammo. You can never practice enough.
Just got back in so I haven't seen what GS common closed at, but, what struck me about the Buffett deal was that he sucked out the first $500MM in after tax income from the common shareholders, market reacts this am by GS common exploding then adds insult to injury by diluting common base by dumping a few billion in new junk back into the pool.
I mean, the actual message to common shareholders is, "Hey, Warren's gonna get first dibs on our net to the tune of 10% and then we're gonna dilute what's left for you commoners even further by adding supply."
Market reaction...YAY!!!
Note: I realize the instruments aren't pricing out this way precisely, but, you get the general poobah:)
I would suggest that you guys all get very Zen and don't give the White House a reason to invoke whatever double-secret Patriot Act clauses they've got up their sleeves. If you know anyone who's planning to protest, tell them to do it calmly and to obey the law.
Keep in mind that law enforcement and military are conservatives at heart. Bush's biggest and most loyal supporters. The last thing we want is any kind of showdown.
So watch your rhetoric and do it the Gandhi way. Peace through peaceful means.
Called both my senators and rep today (again) and let them know this bailout needs more time and debate. With the amount of money requested we need to get this right the first time. Seemed to get more agreement from the staffers.
I also let them know that I am also voting with my pocketboot by stopping all contributions to my 401k since wall street cannot be trusted. Does anyone else think that a grassroots 401K revolt would get their attention? Cut off wall street with our money.
B & H have lost credibility, Bush lost his awhile back. The credit party is over. Grandiose reflations are dead. Bad news is once again bad news. Very bearish.
by the way, McCain memory assistant Sen Lindsay Graham has proposed that the Friday Pres debate be rescheduled for the day of the VP debate, and the VP debate be rescheduled to . . . ????
mp, bank holiday is all but impossible these days.
Most businesses and people do not have any system in place for processing all-cash transactions. Heck, if credit cards stop working for a week you will have an instant revolution, or something.
On the other hand, maybe that is why they are stationing troops inside the country on Oct 1st...
Thanks, appreciate the invite. I live in Orlando, near the "crucial I-4 corridor". I live downtown in a nice area; however we have an area nearby "Orange Blossom Trail" - sounds nice but ghetto as hell.
Missed Information writes:
there was no bank holiday on 9/11
I didn't even pay attention to markets back then, and while no bank holiday, they closed the exchanges until the following Monday. At least they haven't done that yet.
I suspect that GE and IBM added to the "no-short" list is our tell.
Whose pension plan, whose money-market fund does not own those two? And that was just a sneak attack a couple of days after the obvious financials and banks. Suspect that watching this will list will be important.
It does look like potentially everything we've saved is now at risk. Most of us have our life's work and retirement in these accounts.
Even those of us who thought we were "safe" thanks to this blog, with our 401k and 403B and pensions, are going to catch shrapnel.
GD2 starting on Bush's watch. Locked out of White House for 16+ years?
My guess is that Bush will announce some sort of state of emergency, and pass the bailout - somehow...This kicks the can down to Obama, so that the shit hits the fan on his watch.
Congress can pull off the Frank/Dodd bill, but not bank holiday and seizure. That has to be executed by the executive branch, which means . . . if they did it would be like going to see Dr Nick on the Simpsons, or asking Sweeney Todd to give you a shave, or . . . one day when people are confronted with a similar dilemma they will say that it owuld be like asking George W Bush to solve a problem.
Under Obama we could have Swedish style clean up. He would be able to do it. Whether he would choose to do it, I don't know.
Ah,OBT. My brother was in Titusville for a couple of years so we went to a couple of the gunshows at the fairgrounds??? Nice place for a show. You needed to carry to feel safe going there...
I'm surprised at you! What do you mean "IT IS GOING to be a clusterfuck"? It's been one long 8 year clusterfuck, with lots of foreplay before then. Of course it is going to get worse.
Ed Lazear was my favorite professor at Stanford business school. Good teacher.
His academic specialty is microeconomics applied to compensation strategy. So his White House role has been to make predictions far outside his area of expertise.
That's his own fault, but I still feel empathetic, because he is a good guy.
Anybody who says Paulson is going to pay market prices is full of it. If the banks would take market prices, what the heck do they need the Treasury Dept. for? The banks could sell the junk on the open market and take market price. Bernanke is a big fat liar!
McCain and others were briefed on the credit collapse, they know more than the public, and I think his slip "...come together...before Monday morning" is trouble.
More seriously, we need to remember that FDR's actions happened after almost 3 years of Hoover's efforts to cope with the crisis. And we need to put that in perspective:
Hoover was a brilliant fellow and experienced at economic reconstruction from after WWI. Hoover is maligned too much . . . and it is also true that the US economy did not fully recover until WWII juiced it, and as the war ended there were grave fears that the depression would resume. But FDR did carry the country through and set in place insitutional and material infrastructure that was invaluable.
Now look at our present. We wish Bush was Hoover! what an improvement that would be. But the clusterfuck may well prove to be the creative destruction we need to clear the field for something much better . . . or it could turn out the opposite of the 30s and we could get fascism.
Is there anyone but the BFNYC (lmao) who's openly supporting this? Not just indifference? Does anyone here know anyone who's not in the top 0.01% who likes this proposed r@pe & theft?
OMFG! The quote from Forbes! Some idiot in treasury actually said it!!
Faith based rescue plan! We just wanted a big number, didn't need or have a data point . . . but Paulson says we couldn't take it in stages as Schumer suggested.....
GLOCKs came originally in 9mm, and have also been made in various numbers in 10mm, .40S&W, .380, 9X21mm, .357 Sig and .45 GAP. However, the only acceptable caliber for a man to carry is .45 ACP. 10mm is good but hard to find, .40S&W is a wussified 10mm that the FBI created when it found out its agents weren't manly enough for 10mm, ... and no man would be found dead with a 9mm. Actually, a man knows he WOULD be found dead with a 9mm, because a 9mm is a .45 set on stun, and real men do not believe in stun.
Nova is so right. I shot a guy 8 times with my 9mm once and he just looked at me and laughed. I had no idea that the average home invader was an Israeli Commando.
Alan 'The Maestro' Greenspan, Hank "Apre Mois Le Deluge' Paulson, Ben 'Savings Glut' Bernanke, and George W. 'The Decider' Bush bear great responsibility. However:
Back in 2003, a lot of very smart people thought that the economy was getting into a deflationary spiral, even after fed rates were lowered to 1%. We know what happened afterwards.
In reality we have not had a cleansing (for the financial markets that is, because the middle class is in recession for the last twenty years) recession since early eighties. Now, with oil 40% higher than what it was one year ago, some of the same people have pressed all the panic buttons and are asking that we spend a ton of money to prevent a financial Armageddon. I say: let us give the markets a bit of time to sort things out before we create a worse mess than the one we have now.
The Congress should adjourn immediately (they have done enough damage already). No bailout whatsoever!
"Inflationary pressures built up under the artificial lid of the controls. Moreover, the faulty economic doctrines that produced inflationeasy-money policies aimed at maintaining "full employment" of 4 percent joblessnessremained. When controls ended in 1974, inflation exploded to 12 percent. It averaged almost 9 percent from 1975 to 1981. Only the brutal 1981-82 recession, imposed by Paul Volcker's Fed and raising unemployment to 10.8 percent, ended the wage-price spiral."
And that's a good analogy of how this crisis will end. By propping up the housing bubble for 1 more year, it will continue loans on overpriced housing and prolong the recover to 5-10 years. If you don't change the fundamentals, all you can do is use accounting tricks to play with everything else.
It's ridiculous. They'd have had to be complete fools to want Pearl Harbor to be successfully attacked -- only Nagumo's loss of nerve and failure to send a second attack averted destruction of the repair facilities and fuel storage, forcing the fleet back to west coast bases.
There was no excuse for the forces in Hawaii not to be ready -- it had been know for years such an attack was possible, and it was common knowledge that war was imminent, and that Japan would begin it with a surprise attack.
When Congress started asking yesterday, why is this such an emergency, tell the American people why such fast action is needed, Paulsen/Bernake said we can't tell you why...
Bet they really wanted to just plead the 5th.
Sorry Ben, we were too stupid and weak to keep it.
When FDR froze all Japanese assets he had to know it would be seen as an act of war, but he probably expected the attack to come in the Philippines. He obviously was willing to sacrifice everyone there or he thought the fleet from Pearl could rescue them.
And yes, this is on topic, because FDR desperately need a war to turn the economy around as nothing else was working.
No one disputes that FDR wanted to get the US into the war, and wanted Japan to strike the first blow. But he neither expected the blow to come at Pearl, nor expected Pearl to be caught flat-footed if it did. As was shown by the disastrous defeat Japan suffered off Midway half a year later, such a long-distance raid was a huge gamble -- it was a rule of thumb at the time that every 1000 miles a fleet sailed from its base equated to a 10% loss of fighting power.
Democratic Capitalism is teh best system.
Since we are now neither democratic nor capitalist, it is time to burn it down, count up the score, and build a new country.
Gracias. Ahora tengo que ir a Paraguay. Usted va a comer sus muertos. ¡Vete al infierno. Yo soy el ganador.
Anatole Kaletsky on Paulson:
There was no such thing as a Paulson plan. Not only did Mr Paulson not know what he was doing. He did not know what he was talking about. When pressed to offer at least some basic principles for his rescue, Mr Paulson had no answers. When challenged about limits to executive remuneration and taxpayer stakes in future profits of participating banks, he brusquely rejected all such proposals - on the amazing ground that they might discourage some of the stronger banks from taking advantage of government support!
You are doing real public service, CR - thank you.
Well sure, but that was before Paulson had $700B to spend buying them.
Interesting
CR, you are the man!
Can't wait for the sequel tonight at 6:01.
It's difficult to see us all from up there on the ivory tower. It's why so many of them continue to believe that falling home prices are the problem.
lets see
they were either fools
or they lied to us
take your choice, either way
i recommend jail time
In Soviet Russia, investment banks redeem you.
How bout when this is all said and done, a tax credit for lifetime renters?
In Soviet Russia, investment banks redeem you.
I, for one, welcome our new socialist overlords.
Bizarre, indeed.
And such a confidence builder!
It's good to see Congress jumping down their throats. Lets hope that isn't just for show back home.
And here we see the real problem... The financial system is built on trust, right? But all year, we have seen a parade of CEOs come on TV to say how "strong" their capital position is just days before they go bankrupt. We have leadership in the Administration and the Fed and the FDIC lying over and over about the magnitude of the crisis.
And so now it is impossible for anyone to believe anything that comes out of the mouth of any CEO, politician, or public official.
Trust is very hard to earn and very easy to lose. I honestly do not see how handing $700B to the same entities that created the crisis is going to restore it.
from last thread, re: Russian nuke sub near US waters - think Putin answered Shrub's call
Shrub - Hehehe, Pootin, can you do me a lil' favor?
Putin - (Eyes rolling) what now, my friend?
Shrub - I need a lil distraction. Can you send some warships nearby? Gotta rattle them sabres a lil bit.
Putin - No problem, comrade. See you in Paraguay?
lazear sounds like
seb,,,seba...sebasta..bestian sebastian
whew, there it is , is said it
No More Trust - Verify !
Bank Holiday with audits ...
I have some fundamental questions about the actual mechanics of the plan.
BB and HP seem to be pressing that the lockup of the market for short term commercial paper is the "Armageddon" they are warning us about. If so, how does the taxpayer buying MBS, CDOs and other "toxic debt" liquefy the market for short term CP?
Also, they are saying that once the taxpayer buys these securities, the government will be in a better position to modify loans and try to avoid foreclosing on homeowners. As I understand it, the owner of a derivative security based on slices of a pool of loans, would most likely not be the servicer for those loans. Are they saying that they will be acquiring servicing rights somehow? How does owning tiny slices of pooled loans (maybe sliced and pooled a couple times- CDO^2) give them any ability to modify the underlying loans?
If someone with actual knowledge on these mechanics could comment, it would be appreciated. I know there are posters here with that knowledge- Tanta?, CR?
Tonight Bush will announce
(a) The bombing of Iran
(b) An Executive Order to pass the bailout plan, bypassing Congress
(c) Suspension of the upcoming election
(d) All of the above
Who knows what dwells in W's gut Hawley.
Ya know...Some how...I don't think we told you so quite...covers it.
CR,
Good video. But we should be patting ourselves on the back more often than jeering these a-holes. We got it right - on the dime. These idiots are still clueless as to the severity over the next decade plus.
CS Nemo:
I think Bernanke's comments about Lehman will lead to more of the CEO surprises. If I remember correctly, he said that Lehman wasn't bailed out in part because investors had time to react to the firm's failure.
This just gives firms all the more incentive to hide problems if they want a bailout.
I think the sentiment is about right regarding Bush's speech. If he can't get P&B to convince congress, you think appealing to 19 percent of the people that still listen to him is gonna make much of a difference?
Congress and the Administration is full of marketers who tell you their policies "will work." You don't say...
@Jeremy
It contains ethyl alcohol...fo sho.
Persecuted Comrade Anonymouse writes:
CR,
Good video. But we should be patting ourselves on the back more often than jeering these a-holes.
~~~
we can console ourselves with this while stand in the bread line ...
.
What, do they need a note from Hank?
Republicans Press Paulson for Time to Revise Proposal (Update1)
By Laura Litvan and James Rowley
Sept. 24 (Bloomberg) -- House Republicans warned Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson today that his $700 billion financial rescue plan wouldn't pass and asked for more time to consider alternative ideas, lawmakers said.
Republicans Press Paulson for Time to Revise Proposal (Update1) - Bloomberg.com
I still can't believe some of my coworkers (college educated/middle income/Republicans - if that matters) said they don't care about this economic mess. Yeah - it'll only effect the lives of your kids until they're ... dead.
I think it's good that Congress is about to go on recess.They will have to face their constituents if they pass this and they know from all the phone calls how the constituents feel.
What about something for people who own their home free and clear, never refinanced or got a HELOC, and generally are watching this cluster****, highly pissed off?
citizen energyecon writes:
You are doing real public service, CR - thank you.
me too ....
MJC
You are not alone.
Stepping up to the confessional..
Bringing Down Wall Street as Ratings Let Loose Subprime Scourge - Bloomberg.com
Bringing Down Wall Street as Ratings Let Loose Subprime Scourge
By Elliot Blair Smith
Sept. 24 (Bloomberg) -- Frank Raiter says his former employer, Standard & Poor's, placed a ``For Sale'' sign on its reputation on March 20, 2001. That day, a member of an S&P executive committee ordered him, the company's top mortgage official, to grade a real estate investment he'd never reviewed.
S&P was competing for fees on a $484 million deal called Pinstripe I CDO Ltd., Raiter says. Pinstripe was one of the new structured-finance products driving Wall Street's growth. It would buy mortgage securities that only an S&P competitor had analyzed; piggybacking on the rating violated company policy, according to internal e-mails reviewed by Bloomberg.
mjc, I think what we get (me too) is that we can continue to live in our homes, so we can put off starving and freezing for a little longer.
mjc --
What about something for people who own their home free and clear, never refinanced or got a HELOC, and generally are watching this cluster****, highly pissed off?
Why? Those are obviously the chumps.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080924/ap_on_bi_ge/financial_meltdown
If you own your home free and clear aren't you unpatriotic??? LOL j/k
State and local government knock-on effects continue to pile up...
Muni Bond Yields Rise to 6-Year High Amid Variable-Rate Squeeze
By Jeremy R. Cooke
Sept. 24 (Bloomberg) -- Tax-exempt bonds fell for the 10th day this month, driving 30-year benchmark yields to the highest in more than six years, as fallout from upheaval in the financial industry roiled the U.S. municipal market.
Variable interest rates on tax-exempt debt soared to a record, higher than long-term, fixed-rate yields, boosting concern that investors who borrow to finance bond holdings are being forced to sell amid weak demand.
Issuers have postponed more than $7 billion in planned borrowing, after Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. sought bankruptcy protection Sept. 15, sparking a shakeup that's reshaped Wall Street and led the U.S. government to propose a $700 billion rescue. State and local governments also face costs as high as 9 percent on variable-rate demand notes amid outflows from money- market mutual funds that continued yesterday.
Muni Bond Yields Rise to 6-Year High Amid Variable-Rate Squeeze - Bloomberg.com
Comrade McCain suspends his campaign to deal with the financial crisis and wants to postpone the friday debate.
That old grandpa Simpson, dumb piece of shit. No stunt is cheap enough for him to gain the power of the presidency.
This crap should backfire though. Makes him look like he's panicking and nobody will believe that McCain can add anything to the discussion anyway.
Persecuted, many of the Reps I know are deep in denial right now. They don't want to talk about it because they know their votes for Bush led to this debacle. To talk about it simply reminds them of what they've done...
PROFESSOR Krugman:
Last time I checked I learned squat about fixed-income markets and investing in grad school.
Your comments fly in the face of a host seasoned fixed-income managers.
My letter to my congresscritter:
Understand the financial system bailout is not about credit. Lending has gone on for 5000 years. This is about preserving the financial engineering investment industry that co-opted lending and turned its derivatives into gambling instruments. Allowing bookies to go out of business will not affect sports scores except perhaps reducing the hazard of point shaving.
I'll talk to Bxxxxx Mxxxxx in the district to make sure the message gets through. Thanks for your time and service.
This "line of thread is not productive" ...
(Paulson's answer theme-words today when refusing to answer a question)
Bush spaeks at 6pm ET,is that Extraterrestrial Time?
deb writes:
I have some fundamental questions about the actual mechanics of the plan.
For insights into the legal problems facing anyone who wants to fix this mess see:
Credit Slips
There is a link in the article to a PDF of his take on why this is a tough problem.
That's the one thing that really makes me fearful, that these guys are just too steeped in the conventional wisdom. It's kind of like leaving it to the Hoover administration to clean up in 1932.
No, Bush speaks at 9 Eastern time tonight.
this is all my fault
Comrade Kristina --
They don't want to talk about it because they know their votes for Bush led to this debacle. To talk about it simply reminds them of what they've done...
OK, I admit, I take some of the blame for 2000.
But how did you Dems manage to nominate the one guy on Earth who could not defeat W in 2004?
Sorry, sorry. NO POLITICS!
CR - thank you. You da man. You and Dr. Krugman are both onto these MotherFs..... we're just born and bred... dare I say it? DOPES!
Jas just shakes his head and mp / Conjure laugh loudly smoking cigars as they prepare to do a BearScreamer...Neil is enjoying his popcorn while AllenM hopes for a war to end someday even as another one starts... Nemo, Misean, energycon read up on Soviet literature... Just another Canadian and Another Canadian avec popcorn just chuckle at our foolishness...
Dollars cant be found - no one has them or wants them... Banks dont trust each other... And the taxpayers are told to trust the banks...and hold sticks of dynamite.. gotta love it people!
Worth reading from President FDR in 1933 as you prepare to listen to a President(?!) in 2008
Franklin D. Roosevelt Presidential Library and Museum - 404 Not Found
Confidence is what you need says Bernanke & Paulson as they look cool, serene and confident right here
- NY Times
We're so screwed.
Private equity exec sees long recession
NEW YORK (Reuters) - KPS, a private equity firm specializing in buying underperforming or distressed businesses, expects the economy to be in a recession for three to four years, according to co-founder and Managing Partner Michael Psaros.
Private equity exec sees long recession
| Reuters
If someone with actual knowledge on these mechanics could comment, it would be appreciated. I know there are posters here with that knowledge- Tanta?, CR?
deb
I had the same questions and the same lack of knowledge on exactly how moving this junk Hanky Panky's way will suddenly (magically?) release this torrent of credit. Hanky Panky keeps going back to housing and foreclosures as the problem. None of the forclosures are being done by these investment banks. I still fail to see how not doing something like the RFC wouldn't kill two birds with one stone. An RTC could help people stay in their homes (fixes the vacant home problem and keeps payments coming in to the bank) and it would make those bundled loans that the IBs own more attractive.
What am I missing?
On bailout vote responsibility of the two parties:
my comment from another blog this AM:
Pelosi and Reid should quietly tell their GOP minority leaders that the GOP must vote first on whatever bill emerges. If the GOP doesn't have GOP majority support (including the GOP leadership) for the bill in each house (including McCain in the Senate), then the Dems won't supply enough votes to pass the bills.
The Repubs obviously want a bailout more than the Dems (in terms of ideology), so make them supply their votes to pass it or f*ck themselves.
[repost from dead thread below]
China's Exposure to US Debt
Video - CNBC.com
LOL Nemo, ok no politics...I guess you wouldn't like my bailout plan then either...All 54 million people that voted for him in 04 should send a check for 35K to Paulson, problem solved!
I'll stop...
mjc writes:
What about something for people who own their home free and clear, never refinanced or got a HELOC, and generally are watching this cluster****, highly pissed off?"
... but that is just evidence that you have not been spending enough right there!
Sorry if this has been posted already, but here is a copy of the draft bailout plan from TPM.
Looks like they are going to have oversight and get equity. I was hoping for a formal way to price the securities besides trusting the people who got us into this mess.
Is Paulson to be trusted, or is this Bush Administration Shock and Awe, 2.0?
Reggie Middleton says... | Reggie Middleton's Boom Bust Blog
Is Paulson to be trusted, or is this Bush Administration Shock and Awe, 2.0? | Reggie Middleton's Boom Bust Blog
From prior thread:
citizen energyecon writes:
CNBC Poll: Did Paulson and Bernanke make their case?
Page not found - - CNBC.com
Go vote!
Just a thought....maybe the democrats as well as the republicans are to blame for this fiasco. Our government as a whole has failed us and it is intellectually dishonest to pin the blame solely on one group.
The Repubs obviously want a bailout more than the Dems (in terms of ideology), so make them supply their votes to pass it or f*ck themselves
Front page of Drudge is reporting that precisely 4 Republicans in the House support the bailout. No telling how true it is, though.
Thanks CR, sorry if I ever pissed you off! Keep up the great work here!!
[I]snt it bizarre to have officials who miscalled so much ... confidently declaring that they know better than the market what a broad class of securities is worth?
Either they're incompetent or they were deliberately misleading people.
Given that Paulson has in fact been spectacularly successful in business, I have to suspect it's the latter.
I don't know what his motives would be for saying something that he doesn't believe, only I have observed that on Wall Street it is often very profitable to keep quite about some problem or wrongdoing you are very much aware of.
I recall reading an account of one researcher who went to Wall Street in 1999 and asked some of the traders on the floor if they thought there was a bubble in tech stocks. He was surprised by the response most of them gave:
"Of course there's a bubble."
In seems like the most profitable thing Wall Street could have done this past decade is make bad predictions. It kind of makes you think maybe the idea crossed their minds.
Draft of the revised bailout plan:
Talking Points Memo | Breaking News and Analysis
CR,
Can you link in your blog's posts from the same time period as these idiotic comments by TPTB were made?
I think that natural response to this is going to be, well things deteriorated, when we all know a lot of people knew this was BS at the time.
FDR ~
By the afternoon of March 3 scarcely a bank in the country was open to do business. Proclamations temporarily closing them in whole or in part had been issued by the Governors in almost all the states.
It was then that I issued the proclamation providing for the nation-wide bank holiday, and this was the first step in the Government's reconstruction of our financial and economic fabric.
The second step was the legislation promptly and patriotically passed by the Congress confirming my proclamation and broadening my powers so that it became possible in view of the requirement of time to entend (sic) the holiday and lift the ban of that holiday gradually. This law also gave authority to develop a program of rehabilitation of our banking facilities. I want to tell our citizens in every part of the Nation that the national Congress -- Republicans and Democrats alike -- showed by this action a devotion to public welfare and a realization of the emergency and the necessity for speed that it is difficult to match in our history."""
Now is the Time !
There is still time to impeach Bush, we could do this before the market opens in Japan Monday!
I wonder how many other folks like me are gong to watch Shrub's info-mmercial, while still at work.
Or will they tape delay for west coasters...
Make Cramer shut up...He's going to translate the plan for us now...What a tool.
Does your dollar look like this? :
http://www.safehaven.com/images/dorsch/11351_a.jpg
A congressional memo outlining the terms of the Frank/Dodd bill has been leaked
TPMMuckraker | Talking Points Memo | House Dems' Bailout Plan
Don't know if it has been posted on CR yet. I lost track of the threads two hours ago due to work . . . and then wanted to check first to see if Dick Cheney had suspended the Constitution. Seems not, yet, though McCain perhaps is being suspended after being hoist by his own petard
Is Pelosi still alive?
"What about something for people who own their home free and clear, never refinanced or got a HELOC, and generally are watching this cluster****, highly pissed off?"
Lets see you will get higher inflation, higher intrest rates and higher taxes. See everything will go up but your standard of living.
How can you have a Plan to address the problem when you can't quantify the problem ?
Bank Holiday !
You can't solve a problem on the same level it was created -- Einstei
Or will they tape delay for west coasters...
CSPAN always repeats the speeches after some phone feedback time, so look for the second playing on Pacific time.
Brigade homeland tours start Oct. 1 - Army News, news from Iraq, - Army Times
I think the paulson plan is just a distraction until the real plan is executed.
The financial looting is complete. The elite have already taken control of the real assets. Now they will let collapse happen so they can buy the rest up for pennies on the dollar.
Detroit bailout slipping under the radar. Some low-lights:
A $25 Billion Lifeline for GM, Ford, and Chrysler - Rick Newman (usnews.com)
With Congress preoccupied with the massive, $700 billion bailout plan for the financial industry, General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler have finally secured Part One of their own federal rescue plan. A bill set to be passed by Congress and signed by President Bush as early as this weekendseparate from the controversial Wall Street bailout planincludes $25 billion in loans for the beleaguered Detroit automakers and several of their suppliers. "It seemed like a lot when we first started pushing this," says Democratic Sen. Debbie Stabenow of Michigan, one of the bill's sponsors. "Suddenly, it seems so small."
...
There's more aid coming. This year's $25 billion is just a down payment. The automakers now plan to ask the government for another $25 billion in loans next year. It's just spare change, after all.
Here is a link to locations for protests against the bailout tomorrow. Not sure if it is only California, but type in your zip code and see.
Default Template
Seems the major categories are there, but very little meat on the bones
a) Transparency - good, real time public posting of treasury actions, or max 48 hours lag
b) Oversight - unclear whether there is any veto authority for oversight group, judiciary...seems unlikely...so what is this worth?
c)Some talk on compensation limits and warrants for "direct purchase from a company" - just a draft, so no specifics and unclear which companies would be outside purview, i.e. what would be an "indirect purchase from a company"?
Draft available at:
The TPM DOCUMENT COLLECTION - Working Draft of House Bailout Plan
RE plan points:
US institutions only: but does not say assets from those US instit. must have been acquired prior to (today's date)?
Look - I don't give a damn who "wins" this fauxlection. I'm more interested than ever how the events of the past 2-3 weeks and the upcoming bailout will affect the labor market, housing sales/prices, etc. And I don't think they'll make one iota positive contribution. I'm still convinced the recession we're in has barely started, and that by Spring '09 personal consumption will fall off a cliff and employment will follow. Just thought I'd throw that out there.
Bush is going to be THE CLOSER tonight for this stinky banking bailout 'deal'.
He'll close the SALE with the trusty fear-mongering hard sale CLOSE.
A negative close always works with the Marks, the American public, but he'll sell this to the WORLD too, Jas, and THEY will buy it too!
Bet on this CRAP passing by Monday or Tuesday with another bank failure or two this weekend and a sharp drop(controlled panic sell off) in stocks Friday and Monday. Maybe this Turde will be 'passed' before Friday depending on how strong Bush's negative hard sell CLOSE is.
I'm betting Friday it's a Done Deal.
Lobbyists are scrambling to
make sure they get their share of a $700 billion financial
services rescue bill being debated and crafted by the U.S.
Congress.
FACTBOX-Lobbyists look for their piece of bailout pie
| Reuters
Ya Think?
BB and HP seem to be pressing that the lockup of the market for short term commercial paper is the "Armageddon" they are warning us about. If so, how does the taxpayer buying MBS, CDOs and other "toxic debt" liquefy the market for short term CP?
It doesn't,really. The short-term CP market only improves insofar as they give so much money they cover all the losses on credit from the bubble.
Surprisingly, it appears that Fed liquidity measures would be adequate for the commercial paper market. Overall commercial paper is actually up, according to the commercial paper volume report. The reason we're seeing a squeeze is that short-term (1 to 3 months) is down, with everything shifting into ultra-short ( less than 20 day) paper. This points to the Fed discount and auction windows as the source; the Fed runs most windows as overnight lending. The Fed could keep the short-term commercial paper market going just by opening another window with 30-90 day term securities. It might need to start accepting A2/P2 paper as collateral (with appropriate discounts). Maybe. In any case this problem appears manageable without blowing 700 billion on shady paper and flimsy equity.
This is effectively the plan many here have suggested of having the Feds make working capital loans directly. Here the Feds provide the capital, but the banks effectively subcontract the job of choosing the exact recipients and terms. It's an endrun about the fact that the Fed doesn't have the expertise to go into direct lending on short notice.
Bush speech scheduled for 9 PM EDT
What is the "real" bogey man that the boys from Wall Street are afraid of? It's not just a market crash...
Anyone?
the memo on the TPM site is a memo summarizing general points, not a draft of the bill.
the real bill will be long. Frank and Dodd have already been circulating a much longer draft.
so lots of further details will need to be examined when the actual bill is put up for consideration.
What is the "real" bogey man that the boys from Wall Street are afraid of? It's not just a market crash...
seems like we - the public, the congress - have to know to be convinced to go with this
"I didn't use a calculator" said Hank.
"Why?" asked the reporter.
"Because my calculator displays only 12 digits, you f.. idiot"...
Guys, FOCUS!!
The problem with the general analysis of the plan is that:
X = What they're not telling us. (aka: What BB and HP said behind that behind that closed door.)
That's what needs to be addressed.
My guess is that it may have gone something like this:
"If we don't cough up the cash, then what's still left standing of the global market will tank the dollar. Then they'll sell US off like so many bad assets (ie...soon each state will have it's own passport)."
It's time to pay! The question is: Do they take Visa?
Seriously, the real question is:
Do we believe them?
Remember 9/11!!! Remember the Patriot Act!!!
Hell, Remember the Alamo!!
why does Cramer think we will lose our houses if this doesn't go through?
help me out here ?
What's in your wallet?
1. US budget deficit: 9 trillion dollars and growing
2.Iraq & Afghanistan War: 1 trillion and counting
3. Wall Street bailout: $700 billion and then some
$.Bernanke & Paulson comedy sideshow: Priceless.
American Taxpayers Expressed, Wall Street won't leave home without them
Yes, that is the Plan behind the curtain.
so good stuff gets sold for fire sale price also?
Pilgrim's Pride trading halted after stock plunges
Expired
Meat producers are all suffering as the costs for key ingredients like corn are high. The companies can't simply raise prices because an oversupply of meat on the market is keeping prices down. So they're cutting production in a bid to boost prices higher and trying to get a better control on expenses.
The political world is in as much of a tail spin as the financial. LOL. McCain has suspended his campaign. Obama and the Univ of Misissippi say the debate goes on. Obama gets 1 1/2 hour address tp the American people?
draft bailout plan (Dodd/Frank ??) at
The TPM DOCUMENT COLLECTION - Working Draft of House Bailout Plan
catholic girl, Cramer says that because that's what Bernake and Paulson have been saying all day. Do this, or the American worker will lose their jobs, their homes, their savings.
All day they've been saying this. They just don't have any details.
I won't be watching Bush tonight. This is making me sick . I wish that there was something else ( beside the calls and letters to congress )that I could to do to stop this robbery .
I see another bailout: "They have a tremendous amount of debt. They've been unprofitable for many quarters and they're in poor financial health," she said. "They're probably the weakest of all the meat packers."
According to the company's most recent annual report, it carried $1.3 billion in long-term debt at the end of 2007, more than doubling from the previous year. The debt was largely due to its $1.1 billion buyout of rival Gold Kist Inc. in early 2007.
Single acts of tyranny may be ascribed to the accidental opinion of a day; but a series of oppressions, begun at a distinguished period and pursued unalterably through every change of ministers, too plainly prove a deliberate, systematic plan of reducing [a people] to slavery." --Thomas Jefferson: Rights of British America, 1774. (*) ME 1:193, Papers 1:125
FYI, the "Helping Families Save Their Homes in Bankruptcy Act of 2008" is the bankruptcy cramdown legislation.
Funny...
McCain: I Am Suspending My Campaign Until I Have A Better Chance To Win
CNN
because an oversupply of meat on the market
??? is this because people are cutting back on meat? or because the price rose a while ago, so now we have a production glut.
Coincidentally, my neighbor is barbequeing, and it smells good.
http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/6627/1212692836318vw0.jpg
You've seen the hearings of the past two days.....
The Reps who bought it sounded petrified:
"Err....Ummm...Urgency...Someone needs to tell the people what they don't know..."
The Reps who didn't sounded like business as usual:
"We'd like to tack on free chewing gum for the toothless...."
So X has to be economic with a national security spin on it.....
Buffet said it this morning, "Economic Pearl Harbor"
More evidence that Hank Is Not a Plan. {{ducks}} But seriously, CR has a great point that if these guys were calling the bottom of the market 18 months ago, how can you trust them to be calling the bottom on all of this bad debt? What, precisely, are their credentials? I've seen venture cap pitches that showed more thought than this plan.
And who the heck promoted Nemo?!
Commissar 4822 writes:
seems like we - the public, the congress - have to know to be convinced to go with this
It has to be something really big. China talked about a new currency the other day. Putin has a big boat in our back yard. Something big...
C'mon guys, fill in the blank.
FDR ...
"By the afternoon of March 3 scarcely a bank in the country was open to do business. Proclamations temporarily closing them in whole or in part had been issued by the Governors in almost all the states.
It was then that I issued the proclamation providing for the nation-wide bank holiday, and this was the first step in the Government's reconstruction of our financial and economic fabric.
The second step was the legislation promptly and patriotically passed by the Congress confirming my proclamation and broadening my powers so that it became possible in view of the requirement of time to entend (sic) the holiday and lift the ban of that holiday gradually. This law also gave authority to develop a program of rehabilitation of our banking facilities. I want to tell our citizens in every part of the Nation that the national Congress -- Republicans and Democrats alike -- showed by this action a devotion to public welfare and a realization of the emergency and the necessity for speed that it is difficult to match in our history."
Now is the time ...
Yes, Economic Pearl Harbor"
What happens if Warren ends up getting busted for fraud, what a national tragedy! It would maybe be like an Economic Pearl Harbor
London Stud --
But I thought China pulls out its shiny new currency IF Congress passes this thing....
I say McCain took step one, to suspend his campaign, step two, lock arms with Bush, step three, declare that Bush remain in office and that elections will be suspended..
McCain opts out of Friday's debate. Palin to take his place. Isn't that what a VP does?
"Now is the time ..."
Yes, it is.
if you have not seen (heard) congresswoman Marcy Kaptur's speech from the well of the house of representatives floor
this is a must see
she is on FIRE!
5 minutes well spent
Open Left:: There Is No Crisis-Where's My Pitchfork?
Are there any lawyers here? Perhaps we should have a class action law suit to force the invlovement of the courts.
mat,
That Marcy got game!
I say McCain took step one, to suspend his campaign, step two, lock arms with Bush, step three, declare that Bush remain in office and that elections will be suspended..
comrade naked kings
And the purchase of pitchforks at HD and Lowes will save American manufacturing. LOL
FDR knew that Pearl Harbor would unite the American people. A bogeyman was required to get us into the war.
Talk of "frozen credit" is not enough to stir J6P.
Angry Saver writes:
Are there any lawyers here?
Oh come now...
how can you trust them to be calling the bottom on all of this bad debt? What, precisely, are their credentials?
Well, in Paulson's case it's a lifetime of successfully convincing others that the asset he's selling them is really worth more than they're paying him.
I'd say he's ideally qualified.
Margin cal of cthulthu,Nemo is a Kentucky Commissar,self promoted after 6 bourbon and branches.
Send Palin to debate with Obama or Biden.
I think it is really telling about who is connected...McCain wants to postpone the debates...
Talk of "frozen credit" is not enough to stir J6P.
Commissar 4822
No, in fact the Z-1 that mp posted last night shows that J6P has started saving again. Can't have that!
Personally, I'd like to see Obama debate himself...Be far more entertaining!
Hey guys, does anyone but think that B&B are not putting all the cards on the table? Are they really worried about currency collapse not a recession/depression and high interest rates?
I expect for Bush to attempt to dig up the body of the Monroe Doctrine as part of his speech tonight (Russian fleet in the Gulf of Mexico - with Venezuela).
Oh, and mention 9/11 a few dozen times, and allude to opposition to bailout is coming from terrorists (only 10 times).
Last paragraph, for use if necessary:
I declare Martial Law in the US until 6/30/09, and under the power of the unitary presidency cancel the election in Nov. I have also directed that the DoD close the US Capitol Building and prevent any assemblies of any kind within and without the two block area of that building.
Now that congress is contemplating bailouts, the bond holders have absolutely NO incentive to force a resolution through chapter 11.
This is a travesty. The existing system should be allowed to work.
No BAILOUT is necessary. Equity and bond holders take losses. Business as usual.
Nemo is a Kentucky Commissar
I got my self promotion to Commissar by sending faxes to Washington DC, what does it take to become a General Secretary?
I got my commissar badge from a package of Wheaties (the one with Michael Phelps on the front).
FYI: Working Draft of House Bailout Plan (09/24/2008)
The TPM DOCUMENT COLLECTION - Working Draft of House Bailout Plan
what does it take to become a General Secretary?
You have to assassinate the sitting GS. GS? I made a funny!
Were these guys "wrong?" Did they believe what they were saying then? If not, what do they believe today?
Transparency, equity etc. are all important. More important, moving forward, is the truth: Tell us what is happening, and what will happen. How much will it cost me personally? Won't we likely face a severe and prolonged recession no matter what happens, because of all the non-productive loans made and not repaid? Stop trying to soothe us with phony reassurances as if we were a bunch of worried kids. Treat us more like adults--and maybe we'll start acting more like adults. It usually works with MY kids.
intentional drain of "slosh", or liquidity, from the banking system. $125 billion in the last four days drained?
The Market Ticker
"I still can't believe some of my coworkers (college educated/middle income/Dems - if that matters) said they don't care about this economic mess. "
Same crowd, different nominal party, same indifference. Let's see what the third quarter 401k statements do to change their tune.
Even friends who are aware are saying they'll pull their coop off the market for a while or "cut back".
Yeah, that'll work.
because an oversupply of meat on the market
??? is this because people are cutting back on meat? or because the price rose a while ago, so now we have a production glut.
No, this is because input prices are too high for many ranchers, so they had to cull their herds, flooding the market.
You wanted change? Big changes coming all.
Those of you still expecting a reach around will be saddened to learn the meaning of a "Hot Karl" the hard way.
Lean in close tonight when the President speaks. He will explain the Hot Karl to the people.
Oh, and if you haven't heard, Christmas is cancelled.
C'mon guys, fill in the blank.
London Stud
One possibility is our foreign holders of our treasuries-debt fear that the USA may unanimously declare "it sucks to be you" and walk away. How many times has the USofA made loans to foreign countries that was never repaid? Too many times. Hell, which country pays for our foreign military patrols via water, air, and land? Europe? no. Japan? no. South Korea? no. Tawain? no. All of Europe? no. UAE? no. Only one pays the, USA taxpayers. Our military is off on foreign military assignments, nowhere near our own shores to protect us.
Word of the Day for Ben and Henry:
Obfuscation-
To be evasive, unclear, or confusing
NC
Wow!
Deninger is saying Bernanke might be purposely causing a crash !
There's a new public letter from the CEO of BB & T bank:
"There is no panic on Main Street and in sound financial institutions. The problems are in high-risk financial institutions and on Wall Street."
The Corner on National Review Online
I think there are quite a few things going around, that would have normally captured the attention of the bailout opposition, if not for the $700 billion "program". For e.g., someone above mentioned that the $25 billion bailout for the auto makers will be signed by Bush this weekend. How could this get under the radar?
How many other such "programs" are passing under the radar, just because the attention is now diverted to this 700 pound gorilla?
Anyone tracking these things?
Is a "Hot Karl" a fast food sandwich?
Personally I always try to eschew obfuscation.
Angry Renter writes:
There's a new public letter from the CEO of BB & T bank:
"There is no panic on Main Street and in sound financial institutions. The problems are in high-risk financial institutions and on Wall Street."
~~~~~~
Yep, they are bailing out the big boys ... 99.9 % of this toxic paper is at less than 25-30 institutions ... all Wall Streeters !
I want Ben Stein's head on a platter too, along with the other bastards.
"Oh, and if you haven't heard, Christmas is cancelled."
You can take THAT to the bank.
NC writes:
intentional drain of "slosh", or liquidity, from the banking system. $125 billion in the last four days drained?
interesting
Ministry of Truth writes:
Is a "Hot Karl" a fast food sandwich?"
... you do not want to eat that before the trading day, but it is always good to know what is on the menu
NC:
Barring other more reasonable explanations, methinks we need to alert Krugman, Josh Marshall, Andrew Sullivan post haste re: liquidity draining ops. We need to get this out there.
Don't the top 5 banks control 50+% of the deposits; the top 35 banks control 75+%? Of course it's a few big institutions. Thieves all of them.
I don't have any faith in Chris Dodd or his plan either. Dodd is dope and was on the take from Countrywide in my view.
FWIW, his father was also a U.S. Senator. A shady one too. Chris Dodd's father was censured by congress for financial improprieties during his tenure as a Senator from CONnecticut.
The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
Barring other more reasonable explanations, methinks we need to alert Krugman, Josh Marshall, Andrew Sullivan post haste re: liquidity draining ops. We need to get this out there.
damondidit | 09.24.08 - 6:45 pm | #
call HP and BB back to the Committee room ...
How can anyone seriously listen to a plan from BB and HP who obviously don't have a clue.
The US government is buying bad debt for $700 billion. Now Washington is asking other countries to jump in and help, too, but the Germans are bowing out. Believing that the rescue package sends the wrong signal, experts from the country's leading economics think tanks argue it's the right call.
And the institutions that are having a rough time because they can't find investors will go broke. "That step would send the right signal to the market," Dietrich says, adding that those who were performing the worst wouldn't be rewarded in such as situation -- as they are being now.
We need to get this out there"
and something to keep an eye on...
For some reason, I can't get the expression 'bitch-slap' out of my mind.
What are the odds the Dodd plan doesn't put the interests (literally) of Angelo Mozillo and wall street ahead of main street? A guy on the take from the mortgage industry is going to be in charge of bailing out the mortgage mess. WTF!
Any bailout is morally wrong and unnecessary.
WM is reportedly delaying sale to see if gov't will buy thier toxic loans. Unbelievable.
And here we see the real problem... The financial system is built on trust, right?
Last I checked money was just a form of credit issued by the government, so yeah, the most basic elements of our financial system are nothing more than promises printed on fancy paper. Financial assets are meaningless without trust.
Everybody still seems to believe, though, that the financial system is built on liquidity, and that a solution to this crisis can be formulated solely in terms of market mechanics.
Nobody wants to confront the reality that the is really a crisis of trust, because it becomes a vastly more difficult issue to resolve and one that isn't going respond in any meaningful way to quick fix bailouts.
No...In a Hot Karl, a person dookies into a sock and hits you in the face with it. It is a better metaphor.
"WM is reportedly delaying sale to see if gov't will buy thier toxic loans. Unbelievable."
Seizure. Bank Holiday. Do it now.
Federal Reserve Bailout - Marcy Kaptur - CNN
YouTube - Federal Reserve Bailout - Marcy Kaptur - CNN
In 2006 GOLDMAN PAID 16.5 BILLION TO EMPLOYEES
WM is reportedly delaying sale to see if gov't will buy thier toxic loans. Unbelievable.
Anonymous | 09.24.08 - 6:49 pm |
It's infuriating, but perfectly believable. Buffet's GS deal is contingent on a bailout (by Monday I think?). This is how "capitalism" works.
mp writes:
"Oh, and if you haven't heard, Christmas is cancelled."
heh
Billo will be on a tear
There are legitimate reason for the Fed to drain liquidity. They did two huge ops last week that presumably were to deal with very short-term issues - a loan to JPM to unwind Lehman and an overnight window for the near-lockup of the bank clearance mechanisms. Both of those were more than 100 billion, and should be pulled back as soon as possible.
WM is reportedly delaying sale to see if gov't will buy thier toxic loans. Unbelievable.
This is what happens. Socialism for the rich. Even Warren Buffett, the world's richest man, is investing to profit from the bailout. What a disgrace.
We have to let the existing system work. NO BAILOUT!
AC
Yes, a crisis of trust, and confidence, and solvency, liquidity, credit, debt, production, consumption, honesty, transparency, intelligence, you name it. The rot is nearly total
It's infuriating, but perfectly believable. Buffet's GS deal is contingent on a bailout (by Monday I think?). This is how "capitalism" works.
No. This is how crony capitalism works. Absent the fed & treasuries efforts, GS would be tits up bankrupt right now.
Heard a Swedish bank regulator on the radio today talk about how in their crisis they looked back to see what FDR did in 1933.
I wish we could say we were reinventing the wheel. We should be so lucky.
AIG fraud and misconduct: YouTube - Federal Reserve Bailout - Marcy Kaptur - CNN
We need investigations and jail time!
trust, because it becomes a vastly more difficult issue to resolve and one that isn't going respond in any meaningful way to quick fix bailouts.
ac
trust but verify ... Bank Holiday with audits
As much as I dislike this plan, I have to admire Paulson and Bernanke's stamina over the past few days.
Anyone who's been in meetings all day or given long presentations knows how draining this can be...coupled with the long weekends trying to save the world. These guys must be exhausted.
Not that I agree with them...I'm just sayin'.
mp writes:
"WM is reportedly delaying sale to see if gov't will buy thier toxic loans. Unbelievable."
Seizure. Bank Holiday. Do it now.
Yes ! with audits !
It is the only way to get to the bottom of this mess ... the only way
Bill will not pass. Congress will recess. Market correction will resume.
There are legitimate reason for the Fed to drain liquidity. They did two huge ops last week that presumably were to deal with very short-term issues - a loan to JPM to unwind Lehman and an overnight window for the near-lockup of the bank clearance mechanisms. Both of those were more than 100 billion, and should be pulled back as soon as possible.
Exactly. Denninger is a populist fool and agitator.
We have to let the existing system work. NO BAILOUT!
Angry Saver
Bank Holiday with audits ...
otherwise the system freezes because of these insolvent banks ...
King Paulson and Czar Bernanke know more than just what a class of securities is worth - they are willing to bet YOUR money (against their friends) that they "know better" what securities in the largest, most analyzed market (MBS) in the world things they are worth.
This goes beyond chutzpah and fraud - this goes to criminality. Time for a REVOLUTION! Throw these guys out on their bum! Neither Obama nor McCain is the answer - we need to destroy the "two-"party system and get a real choice.
still beating the FDR / Pearl Harbor conspiracy horse are we ?
Yes ... he allowed 4,000 Americans to be slaughtered. Just as Bush allowed 3,000 to die on 9/11.
Widespread belief in superstition and conspiracy is evident in any declining of society. It's also evident in people who feel helpless and unable to explain reality.
You guys are not paying attention. Do we have to crank it up a notch? You know, a financial 9/11. Example. WAMU goes under, FDIC drained, runs on weak banks. Country will go hysterical. It will only take a week and Congress will up the bailout to $1.2T and pass it unanamously. So take your medicine right now or we will have a lot more for you next week.
I expect Bush to push the big red "FEAR" button hard. Hey, he has to make a living for a few years, starting very shortly.
Expecting a wild card also. Something premptive that will stun some people. Of course, they will screw it up somehow, but it will buy time.
These guys are scared. Something is set to blow up and they were on a timetable. Congress has messed the "PLAN" up. I think I hear Chinese laughter behind closed doors.
Anybody stocking up on can goods and looting their ATM?
What about something for people who own their home free and clear, never refinanced or got a HELOC, and generally are watching this cluster****, highly pissed off?
mjc
I think you know what we get. A jug to p*** in, if we're lucky.
"....the beating will continue, until morale improves"
still beating the FDR / Pearl Harbor conspiracy horse are we ?
NOooo ... but FDR knew that the time had arrived ...
they'd probably been waiting for something to happen for months ... it could have been an attack on the Phillipines if Pearl harbor attack had not occurred/
Bush has No cred ...
whatever he says people will believe none of it ... and rightfully so ...
attack on the Phillipines if Pearl harbor
certainly the US could see that happening sooner rather than later.
Dean writes:
As much as I dislike this plan, I have to admire Paulson and Bernanke's stamina over the past few days.
I'm sure Santa is gonna leave a nice big treat in their stockings...
Opps, forgot, Christmas is canelled....my bad
After watching this grilling I think this is a fantastic idea...
The American people should be able to elect regular citizens and put their congressman and senators in front of the camera and demand why they go home on vacations without solving the social security crisis, education issues, etc.
They should be publicly flogged in public for wasting our money and producing NO results, while they stutter giving lame excuses. Democrats and Republicans alike.
Nova, why would George be worried or have fear....shit, he has failed at everything else......nothing new to him.
crispy& cole (COINS!!!) writes:
Anybody stocking up on can goods and looting their ATM?
Never thought I'd do it, but I'm taking a 4 hour NRA intro course to firearms Saturday morning and purchasing a small arms. I don't own glod but I want to kill.
They should be publicly flogged in public for wasting our money and producing NO results, while they stutter giving lame excuses. Democrats and Republicans alike.
raphael
No results are better than 700 billion in bad results ...
Krugman is on fire.
A sneaking suspicion
But theres another possible explanation, which I find terrifyingly plausible: the plan came first, and all this stuff about price discovery is an after-the-fact rationalization, invented when people started asking questions.
You guys are not paying attention. Do we have to crank it up a notch? You know, a financial 9/11. Example. WAMU goes under, FDIC drained, runs on weak banks. Country will go hysterical. It will only take a week and Congress will up the bailout to $1.2T and pass it unanamously. So take your medicine right now or we will have a lot more for you next week.
If we're really on the immediate verge of that kind of event, $700 billion will solve nothing. In any case, both Paulson & Bernanke have made it apparent (without saying so explicitly) that they feel $700 is just the beginning.
Bush has No cred ... whatever he says people will believe none of it ... and rightfully so ...
He's kind of like a weather vane with the arrow pointing backwards. As long as you understand that it's always exactly wrong, it can still provide you with useful information.
When Congress started asking yesterday, why is this such an emergency, tell the American people why such fast action is needed, Paulsen/Bernake said we can't tell you why..
.. it's a secret.
Why is it a secret? Because they don't want the public to know just how bad it is. Because it would panic the public and they don't want a panic. They've already had a run on the money markets.
So if Bush is going on TV today and present more fluff to the public, trust us, etc., it's just a waste of time. If he tells the truth, it'd be panic. So what will he do, any bets?
General Secretary Nemo
Bank Holiday - put Krugman in charge ...
It just occurred to me that maybe Bush will tell us that Bin Laden has been located in a Countrywide produced MBS, or in the basement of a foreclosed house, or that the Ghost of Saddam will come back unless we give Paulson a blank check with no oversight or review.
I would be persuaded. Wouldn't you?
What if he says that if we approve the Paulson plan with no strings, nice and clean, then the citizens of Wall St will greet us as liberators and through flowers at us?
Persecuted Comrade Anonymous --
I'm taking a 4 hour NRA intro course to firearms Saturday morning and purchasing a small arms. I don't own glod
Many years ago, I had a good friend who was a bit of a survivalist nut. He explained about the shelter he had built and stocked with bullets.
"Don't you mean bullets and food?" I asked.
"Nah. I figure if I have bullets, I can get food..."
Question:
How much more toxic waste can the Fed take on in repo auctions? Is this bailout as much as cleaning out the Fed's balance sheet as it is the banks?
Actually, did anyone think Hank and the lads made a deal with unknown entities. As in, we will have the money to you by Monday, until then, no need to do xxxxx.
I think the someone should propose a Department of Slap.....
"Oh, and if you haven't heard, Christmas is cancelled."
You can take THAT to the bank.
mp
You know it's funny. Several years ago when my husband was alive and we had been successful for a few years, we sat down and looked at our tree and the presents came out 4 ft from the tree. We looked at each other and said...never again. So for many years, and even after he passed, the deal with my family has been one purchased present and the rest handmade.
F*** them, we'll still have Christams at my house.
How much more toxic waste can the Fed take on in repo auctions? Is this bailout as much as cleaning out the Fed's balance sheet as it is the banks?
Dean
Exactly why we need to look at their books ... and take them over if they are insolvent ...
So what will he do, any bets?
I'd say go with the nonsequitor. National security is always a good bet, and terrorists are often a popular argument.
Certainly, I would not expect logic.
"But theres another possible explanation, which I find terrifyingly plausible: the plan came first,..."
Well, hell yes. I said this morning they couldn't even keep their own "facts" straight. They didn't do their homework. No planning, no staffing, nothing.
They are clueless. This is off-the-cuff.
Widespread belief in superstition and conspiracy is evident in any declining of society. It's also evident in people who feel helpless and unable to explain reality.
I am certain you believed every word of the Gulf of Tonkin incident and the Powell speech at the U.N.
There are lots of reasons to distrust what government says. Ever read Orwell? He knew it quite well. Terming something a conspiracy theory and therefore dismissing is the ultimate win for the ways of the Ministry of Truth, i.e. the establishment.
Don't trust anything Government/Big Business say. Conspiracy theories spawn a healthy debate of about truth and lies.
Please tell me somebody knows where I can get a youtube or other media cut of the Ron Paul "Coins!" moment from today! Please link it here.
I think Krugman is right about BB and HP. they just cooked up "price discovery" yesterday. Before that they really had no plan, just a demand for money.
We are staring deep into the depths of an incompetence so incredible that Iraq and Katrina almost pale in comparison.
Olly, olly auction, free, free, free
Persecuted Comrade Anonymouse | Homepage | 09.24.08
Good. If I remember you are in Florida. If you get over to the Charlotte County area and want to shoot there is a pretty good range at Babcock Webb. My treat. Any of my weapons,I'll even pick up the ammo. You can never practice enough.
The NRA course is pretty good.
Chris
Just got back in so I haven't seen what GS common closed at, but, what struck me about the Buffett deal was that he sucked out the first $500MM in after tax income from the common shareholders, market reacts this am by GS common exploding then adds insult to injury by diluting common base by dumping a few billion in new junk back into the pool.
I mean, the actual message to common shareholders is, "Hey, Warren's gonna get first dibs on our net to the tune of 10% and then we're gonna dilute what's left for you commoners even further by adding supply."
Market reaction...YAY!!!
Note: I realize the instruments aren't pricing out this way precisely, but, you get the general poobah:)
RE
everything government does is a conspiracy , it's just a legal conspiracy ...
anybody who doesn't believe in conspiracy explain why there are 30,000 lobbyists in DC.
I would suggest that you guys all get very Zen and don't give the White House a reason to invoke whatever double-secret Patriot Act clauses they've got up their sleeves. If you know anyone who's planning to protest, tell them to do it calmly and to obey the law.
Keep in mind that law enforcement and military are conservatives at heart. Bush's biggest and most loyal supporters. The last thing we want is any kind of showdown.
So watch your rhetoric and do it the Gandhi way. Peace through peaceful means.
Called both my senators and rep today (again) and let them know this bailout needs more time and debate. With the amount of money requested we need to get this right the first time. Seemed to get more agreement from the staffers.
I also let them know that I am also voting with my pocketboot by stopping all contributions to my 401k since wall street cannot be trusted. Does anyone else think that a grassroots 401K revolt would get their attention? Cut off wall street with our money.
"F*** them, we'll still have Christams at my house."
Whereis..., I certainly didn't mean to upset you.
My point in saying "you can take that to the bank" is that, for many families, Christmas will be rather bleak this year.
B & H have lost credibility, Bush lost his awhile back. The credit party is over. Grandiose reflations are dead. Bad news is once again bad news. Very bearish.
by the way, McCain memory assistant Sen Lindsay Graham has proposed that the Friday Pres debate be rescheduled for the day of the VP debate, and the VP debate be rescheduled to . . . ????
Meanwhile, Sarah Palin will be doing what?
Nobody has the "Coins!" moment on tap?
Seizure. Bank Holiday. Do it now.
mp, bank holiday is all but impossible these days.
Most businesses and people do not have any system in place for processing all-cash transactions. Heck, if credit cards stop working for a week you will have an instant revolution, or something.
On the other hand, maybe that is why they are stationing troops inside the country on Oct 1st...
Hey Cobra Chris,
You ever buy ammo by mail? Did it work out?
Whereis..., I certainly didn't mean to upset you.
My point in saying "you can take that to the bank" is that, for many families, Christmas will be rather bleak this year.
mp
I am not upset at you, mp.
I just won't let these jackanapes take everything away from me;)
Cobradriver,
Thanks, appreciate the invite. I live in Orlando, near the "crucial I-4 corridor". I live downtown in a nice area; however we have an area nearby "Orange Blossom Trail" - sounds nice but ghetto as hell.
Missed Information writes:
Seizure. Bank Holiday. Do it now.
mp, bank holiday is all but impossible these days.
they did it for 9/11
this time we need audits ...
"mp, bank holiday is all but impossible these days."
Three-day bank holiday. Seizure. Control all assets using contracted public accounting firms. Bank officers go in the hot seat. FULL DISCLOSURE.
DO IT NOW.
there was no bank holiday on 9/11
mp writes:
"mp, bank holiday is all but impossible these days."
Three-day bank holiday. Seizure. Control all assets using contracted public accounting firms. Bank officers go in the hot seat. FULL DISCLOSURE.
DO IT NOW.
mp | 09.24.08 - 7:16 pm | #
Amen brother !
Have a listen :
Contrary Investors Cafe, Daily Wrap
My point in saying "you can take that to the bank" is that, for many families, Christmas will be rather bleak this year.
And ironically, it may improve their christmas's as a result. Perhaps realizations will be made.
Missed Information writes:
there was no bank holiday on 9/11
I didn't even pay attention to markets back then, and while no bank holiday, they closed the exchanges until the following Monday. At least they haven't done that yet.
I suspect that GE and IBM added to the "no-short" list is our tell.
Whose pension plan, whose money-market fund does not own those two? And that was just a sneak attack a couple of days after the obvious financials and banks. Suspect that watching this will list will be important.
It does look like potentially everything we've saved is now at risk. Most of us have our life's work and retirement in these accounts.
Even those of us who thought we were "safe" thanks to this blog, with our 401k and 403B and pensions, are going to catch shrapnel.
And ironically, it may improve their christmas's as a result. Perhaps realizations will be made.
JP
That was my point, JP.
Roast squirrel for everybody!
What are they so afraid of?
GD2 starting on Bush's watch. Locked out of White House for 16+ years?
My guess is that Bush will announce some sort of state of emergency, and pass the bailout - somehow...This kicks the can down to Obama, so that the shit hits the fan on his watch.
MP
Congress can pull off the Frank/Dodd bill, but not bank holiday and seizure. That has to be executed by the executive branch, which means . . . if they did it would be like going to see Dr Nick on the Simpsons, or asking Sweeney Todd to give you a shave, or . . . one day when people are confronted with a similar dilemma they will say that it owuld be like asking George W Bush to solve a problem.
Under Obama we could have Swedish style clean up. He would be able to do it. Whether he would choose to do it, I don't know.
Bush is incapable. McCain is incapable.
Missed Information writes:
there was no bank holiday on 9/11
my bad , I was thinking of the markets ...
But we need one now , pronto with audits ...
You ever buy ammo by mail? Did it work out?
Nova | 09.24.08 - 7:14 pm | #
I purchase small amounts at wally world/local toy store. But for larger purchases I use these guys.
AIMSurplus, your home for surplus ammunition, guns and firearms
My UPS dude loves me.
They are running a blowout on Mosin rifles. Something cheap to toss in the closet with a couple of sealed cans of ammo.
"Orange Blossom Trail" - sounds nice but ghetto as hell.
Persecuted Comrade Anonymouse | Homepage | 09.24.08 - 7:15 pm | #
Ah,OBT. My brother was in Titusville for a couple of years so we went to a couple of the gunshows at the fairgrounds??? Nice place for a show. You needed to carry to feel safe going there...
Chris
Roast squirrel for everybody!
I confess that would be a realization even for me.
MP
Also, if Xmas is glum, then you and Conjure are always welcome at my place for single malt and cigars. Just ask Conjure not to break too much stuff.
McCain, Obama headed to Washington for bailout talks - CNN.com
McCain also said he would not attend Friday night's debate with Democratic rival Barack Obama unless an economic bailout deal is reached by then.
"Bush is incapable. McCain is incapable."
Joe, I'm not saying it's going to happen, but it must happen in order to have discovery.
In the end, the assets and liabilities WILL be controlled. It would be easier if it happened now, but we know that won't happen.
It's going to be a clusterf*(k.
crispy& cole (COINS!!!) writes:
Anybody stocking up on can goods and looting their ATM?"
not yet, but priority will be cat litter
MP
I'm surprised at you! What do you mean "IT IS GOING to be a clusterfuck"? It's been one long 8 year clusterfuck, with lots of foreplay before then. Of course it is going to get worse.
ot yet, but priority will be cat litter
NC
I thought I was the only one who was stockpiling that essential!
NC --
not yet, but priority will be cat litter
Just use dollar bills
Ed Lazear was my favorite professor at Stanford business school. Good teacher.
His academic specialty is microeconomics applied to compensation strategy. So his White House role has been to make predictions far outside his area of expertise.
That's his own fault, but I still feel empathetic, because he is a good guy.
Anybody who says Paulson is going to pay market prices is full of it. If the banks would take market prices, what the heck do they need the Treasury Dept. for? The banks could sell the junk on the open market and take market price. Bernanke is a big fat liar!
McCain and others were briefed on the credit collapse, they know more than the public, and I think his slip "...come together...before Monday morning" is trouble.
Loose lips sink stocks.
MP
More seriously, we need to remember that FDR's actions happened after almost 3 years of Hoover's efforts to cope with the crisis. And we need to put that in perspective:
Hoover was a brilliant fellow and experienced at economic reconstruction from after WWI. Hoover is maligned too much . . . and it is also true that the US economy did not fully recover until WWII juiced it, and as the war ended there were grave fears that the depression would resume. But FDR did carry the country through and set in place insitutional and material infrastructure that was invaluable.
Now look at our present. We wish Bush was Hoover! what an improvement that would be. But the clusterfuck may well prove to be the creative destruction we need to clear the field for something much better . . . or it could turn out the opposite of the 30s and we could get fascism.
I wonder if the call volume to congress has died off?
I called Monday and Tuesday, but I was too busy to call today.
I will call again tomorrow though.
I hope you all are still calling/emailing/faxing! We have to keep the call volume up to stop this.
Please share any good stories.
joe shmoe writes:
MP
More seriously, we need to remember that FDR's actions happened after almost 3 years of Hoover's efforts to cope with the crisis.
Things happen a lot faster these days ...
Since we are in a holding pattern until the main man does his fear mongering...
Nice site Chris, I ordered a load bearing harness the other day. One thing I learned was iron is heavy to wear. Especially if you have no ass.
"But the clusterfuck may well prove to be the creative destruction we need to clear the field for something much better . . ."
Well, Joe, you could be right, but it's unfortunate that it could take several years of pain for people to reach a consensus on what's necessary.
Loose lips sink stocks.
Say that 10 times fast!
The Emperor lost his clothes a long time ago and now all his courtiers are shedding theirs so he won't look so odd and out of place.
"Things happen a lot faster these days ..."
Unfortunately, I can't bring myself to agree with that. I wish it was so.
People are no smarter now than they were two thousand years ago. They just wear different styles and play with different gadgets.
stealthwii writes:
Please share any good stories.
Is there anyone but the BFNYC (lmao) who's openly supporting this? Not just indifference? Does anyone here know anyone who's not in the top 0.01% who likes this proposed r@pe & theft?
MP
Agreed, most sadly and tragically.
what about this from forbes via kos :
In fact, some of the most basic details, including the $700 billion figure Treasury would use to buy up bad debt, are fuzzy.
"It's not based on any particular data point," a Treasury spokeswoman told Forbes.com Tuesday. "We just wanted to choose a really large number."
wtF?
Bad News For The Bailout - Forbes.com
anybody who doesn't believe in conspiracy explain why there are 30,000 lobbyists in DC.
Exactly and more.
"It's not based on any particular data point," a Treasury spokeswoman told Forbes.com Tuesday. "We just wanted to choose a really large number."
Well, there's your proof. They pulled it out of their asses.
No staffing, no planning, nothing.
Fools.
stealthwii writes:
I wonder if the call volume to congress has died off?
Several Senators' fax lines were busy this eve...
No staffing, no planning, nothing.
Fools.
mp | 09.24.08 - 7:39 pm |
I don't think so. Something is driving this. I still the Chinese bookie called and told them to pay up.
OMFG! The quote from Forbes! Some idiot in treasury actually said it!!
Faith based rescue plan! We just wanted a big number, didn't need or have a data point . . . but Paulson says we couldn't take it in stages as Schumer suggested.....
What lying incompetent shameless stupid idiotic lame bullshit evil corrupt arrogant mother fuckers!
Way OT but...
GLOCKs came originally in 9mm, and have also been made in various numbers in 10mm, .40S&W, .380, 9X21mm, .357 Sig and .45 GAP. However, the only acceptable caliber for a man to carry is .45 ACP. 10mm is good but hard to find, .40S&W is a wussified 10mm that the FBI created when it found out its agents weren't manly enough for 10mm, ... and no man would be found dead with a 9mm. Actually, a man knows he WOULD be found dead with a 9mm, because a 9mm is a .45 set on stun, and real men do not believe in stun.
Nova is so right. I shot a guy 8 times with my 9mm once and he just looked at me and laughed. I had no idea that the average home invader was an Israeli Commando.
We just wanted to choose a really large number
Now there's an accounting principle I can embrace!
Alan 'The Maestro' Greenspan, Hank "Apre Mois Le Deluge' Paulson, Ben 'Savings Glut' Bernanke, and George W. 'The Decider' Bush bear great responsibility. However:
Back in 2003, a lot of very smart people thought that the economy was getting into a deflationary spiral, even after fed rates were lowered to 1%. We know what happened afterwards.
In reality we have not had a cleansing (for the financial markets that is, because the middle class is in recession for the last twenty years) recession since early eighties. Now, with oil 40% higher than what it was one year ago, some of the same people have pressed all the panic buttons and are asking that we spend a ton of money to prevent a financial Armageddon. I say: let us give the markets a bit of time to sort things out before we create a worse mess than the one we have now.
The Congress should adjourn immediately (they have done enough damage already). No bailout whatsoever!
see you guys later. I need a few hours of reality so I don't go insane.
Excellent article comparing Paulson's panic to Nixon's price controls of August 1971:
The Bailout: Why Paulson's Plan Could Make Things Worse | Newsweek Newsweek - Robert J. Samuelson | Newsweek.com
"Inflationary pressures built up under the artificial lid of the controls. Moreover, the faulty economic doctrines that produced inflationeasy-money policies aimed at maintaining "full employment" of 4 percent joblessnessremained. When controls ended in 1974, inflation exploded to 12 percent. It averaged almost 9 percent from 1975 to 1981. Only the brutal 1981-82 recession, imposed by Paul Volcker's Fed and raising unemployment to 10.8 percent, ended the wage-price spiral."
And that's a good analogy of how this crisis will end. By propping up the housing bubble for 1 more year, it will continue loans on overpriced housing and prolong the recover to 5-10 years. If you don't change the fundamentals, all you can do is use accounting tricks to play with everything else.
Patton speaks to George Bush
YouTube -
They can't get another year out of this REO Speedwagon. They aren't even going to make it to November.
Re "FDR / Pearl Harbor conspiracy" theory:
It's ridiculous. They'd have had to be complete fools to want Pearl Harbor to be successfully attacked -- only Nagumo's loss of nerve and failure to send a second attack averted destruction of the repair facilities and fuel storage, forcing the fleet back to west coast bases.
There was no excuse for the forces in Hawaii not to be ready -- it had been know for years such an attack was possible, and it was common knowledge that war was imminent, and that Japan would begin it with a surprise attack.
"Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing, after they have exhausted all other possibilities."
-Winston S. Churchill
Nova | 09.24.08 - 7:44 pm | #
.45 is a great round. Cheap to reload. Makes nice big holes. And I just happen to have a SA/HI-CAP 1911. Pawn shop special. 250.00.
I like deals...
Chris
I'll save you all a billion dollars. I'll lie my ass off before congress for 699 billion.
May I have your votes?
Russia wants their money...they even floated a big "Peter" over to visit Chavez...just to get our attention.
When Congress started asking yesterday, why is this such an emergency, tell the American people why such fast action is needed, Paulsen/Bernake said we can't tell you why...
Bet they really wanted to just plead the 5th.
Sorry Ben, we were too stupid and weak to keep it.
"Liars, and the Lying Lies They Are Telling You"
Liars, and the Lying Lies They Are Telling You « Your Mortgage or Your Life…
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Privatizing Profits and Socializing Losses: How the Rich are Staying Rich « Your Mortgage or Your Life…
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When FDR froze all Japanese assets he had to know it would be seen as an act of war, but he probably expected the attack to come in the Philippines. He obviously was willing to sacrifice everyone there or he thought the fleet from Pearl could rescue them.
And yes, this is on topic, because FDR desperately need a war to turn the economy around as nothing else was working.
Sorry Ben...
No one disputes that FDR wanted to get the US into the war, and wanted Japan to strike the first blow. But he neither expected the blow to come at Pearl, nor expected Pearl to be caught flat-footed if it did. As was shown by the disastrous defeat Japan suffered off Midway half a year later, such a long-distance raid was a huge gamble -- it was a rule of thumb at the time that every 1000 miles a fleet sailed from its base equated to a 10% loss of fighting power.
President Bush is about to announce the beginning of the end. Adiós, America. Sorry we couldn't be bothered with your demise until your death rattle.
He's sober. Uh oh.
"A distressing scenario could unfold..."
Unstated: And this would be wonderful for my allies in the political arena.
"I understand, but I don't give a shit. I want my loot"
Democratic Capitalism is teh best system.
Since we are now neither democratic nor capitalist, it is time to burn it down, count up the score, and build a new country.
Gracias. Ahora tengo que ir a Paraguay. Usted va a comer sus muertos. ¡Vete al infierno. Yo soy el ganador.
I guess maybe that there is time for one more round of calling and faxing .
Andy Xie rules. All your truth are belong to Hong Kong.
Anatole Kaletsky on Paulson:
There was no such thing as a Paulson plan. Not only did Mr Paulson not know what he was doing. He did not know what he was talking about. When pressed to offer at least some basic principles for his rescue, Mr Paulson had no answers. When challenged about limits to executive remuneration and taxpayer stakes in future profits of participating banks, he brusquely rejected all such proposals - on the amazing ground that they might discourage some of the stronger banks from taking advantage of government support!
Save the world? Hank just didn't have a clue | Anatole Kaletsky - Times Online
quote of the day:
The Republicans are a party that says government doesn't work - and then get elected and prove it.