So the FED continues to manipulate the markets to continue to get their installments, which I imagine will end up going much beyond the 700b. Sounds like a nifty plan to me.
It's still way too big. These changes and conditions aren't going to make this obscenity any better. You can polish a turd all you want but it's still going to be a turd.
"Like how you bought your couch, payment plans. Remember how your mother brought in $10 everyday for a year and she finally got her couch Rent-A-Center Style?"
Quoting people familiar with the matter, the Journal's online report also said the bill contains limits on "golden parachutes" paid to executives and that warrants would apply to all companies.
I still want no bailout, but I agree with the installments. First $250 before the elections, the next one, well, things have changed, you know, please give me your badge, you have 5 minutes to collect your personal effects.
Could the "installment" nature of the plan actually be a stick used to encourage asset sellers to be reasonable on their pricing demands? To force them to compete? Otherwise, we won't buy all the crap out there.
Or - if this process actually builds some kind of genuine order/sanity/discovery into the pricing - and private money steps in to participate?
blackhat writes:
I still want no bailout, but I agree with the installments. First $250 before the elections, the next one, well, things have changed, you know, please give me your badge, you have 5 minutes to collect your personal effects.
She is quite the socialist sauce pot... giggling and smirking with glee as Senator Shelby gravely remarks about the burden this will place on our children.
She has no idea how inappropriate she comes across...
The cram down provision got lost in the shuffle, so it's just the bail out with equity, executive pay and oversight added. Wonder what else will be dropped before it
s signed into law. Conference committee changes anyone?
"karelian writes:
She is quite the socialist sauce pot... giggling and smirking with glee as Senator Shelby gravely remarks about the burden this will place on our children.
She has no idea how inappropriate she comes across...'
"blackhat writes:
I still want no bailout, but I agree with the installments. First $250 before the elections, the next one, well, things have changed, you know, please give me your badge, you have 5 minutes to collect your personal effects.
blackhat | 09.25.08 - 2:55 pm | # "
Exactly. As Buffy would say, "they are evil and they must be stopped."
von Mises writes:
1. Propose something completely outrageous so that people get mad.
2. Once people have calmed a bit, reduce the proposition somewhat. People thus get happy it wasn't worse.
You smart but world use different model economics.
I am sure I am naively optimistic here.
zeropointzero
I don't think you are.
This plan will be an administrative nightmare, and making it transparent will defeat a lot of the purpose Bernanke and Paulson set for it.
I'll bet that not more than $250 billion ever gets spent.
There is going to have to be another approach with a whole new cast and this installment buys time to get there. It's a win for taxpayers and a big loss for Paulson/Bernanke. It strips away their ability to funnel vast quantities of money to prop up the stock market and failing institutions. There's not enough for everyone in need, so it will have to be more fair and transparent and the prices will have to be closer to reality.
Is it at all possible that the closed door meetings with the finance committees of the house and senate didn't take into consideration that they had to get everyone else to vote for this as well.
I am wondering that if once the doors opened all the other congressmen will say, no way no how?
The weather is peferct in Atlanta , anyone going to the Atlanta Fed this afternoon or tomorrow AM . I don't think my presence in front of the Rsowell Edward Jones office in Roswell would be very effective .
If this was/is an actual crisis of such grand magnitude.. this is a bad idea.. the main ingredient of successfully preventing total financial disaster is hitting the crisis with so much money that.. it's inconceivable that all of it will be needed..
The trickle it out method seems like a bad idea.. but guess we'll see soon enough.
Read "Manias, Panics, and Crashes: A History of Financial Crises" by Kindleberger for perspective on this issue.
Personally, I think they should hit it with $2 - $3 trillion instantly.. but whatever.
DD49--both House and Senate were in that room. They'll both vote on exactly the same bill, no amendments allowed in either chamber.
If nobody objects, it could be done in a matter of hours.
If one Senator decides to do object and make everyone's life difficult, they could delay it for about 80 hours all by their lonesome. After that it will take 40 votes to slow it down.
I guarantee you there are not 40 votes to slow this down. That was part of the deal making.
Could the "installment" nature of the plan actually be a stick used to encourage asset sellers to be reasonable on their pricing demands? To force them to compete? Otherwise, we won't buy all the crap out there.
We can hope. The 250 amount is too high for my liking, but installment was a good play. Gimme more details, please!
Just called Rep & 2 Senators. Calls running very strong, nearly all oppose bailout. They are justifying their willingness to move ahead with this in spite of overwhelming public opposition because the "consequences of inaction > consequences of public disappointment".
Need to sharpen our message, folks. They've got a shield to hide behind, and we need to remove it.
Who can phrase a question that demolishes that smokescreen? Can you post it, so the pitchfork-and-musket crowd can attack their last bastion?
I'm getting the impression that this is not a done deal, that the rank and file are not aboard. This has to go to a vote. The details of the legislation are not available for review. Not a done deal. Don't be buffaloed by the stampeders-in-chief.
To:
President George Bush
Sen. Joseph Biden
Sen. Thomas Carper
Rep. Michael Castle
September 25, 2008
I support the proposed bailout plan because Someone has to support the
thiefs ,or we all will go down with them, all these big fat cat C.E.O.
don't they have any heart while they are filling their pockets? shame on you
all ! some day you will meet your maker ! what will you tell HIM ? remember
you can't take it with you " the FOOL said in his heart ,there is no God,"!
is that what you guys are thinking ? I will pray for your souls
I have yet to meet anyone who owns shares and can discuss valuation intelligently. All my cases fall into, well maybe it will pay off at the end, or greater fool theory.
The farmer's neighbor came over and saw the farmers pet pig hobbling around on just 3 legs. Neighbor says to the farmer "What happened to your pet pig?"
Farmer replies
"Hell, you don't expect me to eat my pet all at once do you?"
All I have continually said to congressmen is that this does not deserve tax payer money. Find another way to fund it or don't do it. Everyone was focusing on semantics "they don't support THIS bailout" so they changed it and will pass it. I support NO bailouts. Let the banks figure it out if they are so hard up, let them borrow from China, that's where the money is going to come from anyways.
Doc H,
It's not about what regional banks are not yet insolvent, it's about an attempted bailout of the highly leveraged derivative market using borrowed funds.
You can debate the efficacy of it in a free society and free market with a democratic consensus. since that is not our current environment, we can roll over or act within whatever rule of law remains.
Better use of the money--re-fund the Small Business Administration after the huge, idiotic Bush cuts. The SBA can provide guarantees to banks lending to small businesses. This is where the real credit crunch is right now, the one affecting the economy. Lending standards can remain prudent and still do a world of good.
But small businesses don't have a friend at the Treasury or in the White House.
Still unresolved is whether the bill will include a provision allowing bankruptcy judges to change mortgage terms. The Treasury would have $250 billion available immediately, said a Senate aide, who requested anonymity [...]
Frank said a Democratic provision to let judges rewrite mortgage terms for homeowners in bankruptcy proceedings is the "most controversial" and remains an "outstanding issue."
"We pushed very strongly for it," Frank said. "We haven't resolved it yet."
DD49--both House and Senate were in that room. They'll both vote on exactly the same bill, no amendments allowed in either chamber.
If nobody objects, it could be done in a matter of hours.
Sorry, you missed my point. The public face of this law (news media today) could be different than the law that is signed. Removed exec comp issue for example in committee. Law is signed and Congress moves on. Who could have know? Secretarial mistake, blather. But another one of the "promises" made public goes away. I'll still don't trust any of these guys even with a "gun" to their heads.
I know, I'm the original Yahoo message board poster that has been on top of derivatives for 10 years -- but we need people to be calm and just find accountable banks -- the rest will fall into place over the next several years:
So the FED is the lender of last resort, and the Treasury is now the fixed-income investor of last resort. If you know the right people you can't lose.
"I have yet to meet anyone who owns shares and can discuss valuation intelligently. All my cases fall into, well maybe it will pay off at the end, or greater fool theory."
That's why warrants are being discussed as part of the bill:
see Wikipedia entry:
In finance, a warrant is a security that entitles the holder to buy stock of the company that issued it at a specified price, which is usually higher than the stock price at time of issue.
Warrants are frequently attached to bonds or preferred stock as a sweetener, allowing the issuer to pay lower interest rates or dividends. They can be used to enhance the yield of the bond, and make them more attractive to potential buyers. Warrants can also be used in private equity deals. For instance, it was a common practice during the height of the dot-com bubble for a landlord of sought-after commercial real-estate to demand warrants from high-tech startups as part of the lease agreement. Frequently, these warrants are detachable, and can be sold independently of the bond or stock.
Something had to pass: a "crisis" had been declared. And the only way out from the dead-end alley the admin had backed them into was for everyone to hold hands, together, declare "success", and quickly walk back as one. Whether the final bill did anything was no longer the point.
The installment plan ensures no more than the first installment ever gets paid: once set-up, the problems with the execution will become obvious, and it would be radioactive to vote again on this dog. They'll move on to another, more opaque, "solution".
Malcom X once said that you can't stab someone in the back 7 inches, pull the knife out 2 inches and call it progress. Likewise, you can't stab someone in the back two inches at a time up to the hilt and call it a compromise.
How does this plan (or any other form of the plan) change the massive exposure for protection sellers on the trillions and trillions of dollars of Credit Default Swaps and other derivatives. These contracts were mainly based on a--let's say--"questionable" view of the probabilities of the events we have been seeing and the exposures are unspeakably massive. What does this f---ing plan change? Massive exposure and liability on the swaps on any mortgage related instruments/debt/etc. is a fait accompli. Even $700 Billion doesn't come close. Where is this going?
fair enough. but i don't think this blog has the inherent ability to start or stop a bank run, that will be predetermined by how the derivatives unwind. your opinion is that this bailout will fix it all in a couple of years. perhaps, i've been wrong before, guessing the date of the recession for example.
so your bet is no crash.
my bet is after the TIC data is released in a couple of weeks.
Honey how can I plunge the toxic mortgages out of the plumbing when the pipes are rotted and the bill is some WHOTHE%!@#%!@$KNOWS percentage of
1,400,000,000,000,000.00 (BIS 2qtr2008 total derivatives)
Eli, have you considered they need to raise the money?
Anonymous Wag,
My expectation is they the money supply, in circulation, will be doubled or tripled anyway (i.e. they'll just print it).. it's just a matter of how bad things get before that is done.
Last I looked.. total currency (if looked at in US$ terms) in circulation was around $4 trillion.
CDS contracts were around notional $50 trillion (this was back in December 2007 when I was doing the numbers)
The swaps are what will do us in.. either you inflate.. or just negate the swaps.. or try to hold on until the contracts expire.. I guess..
They sure aren't writing any more credit default swaps.. these days.
So.. I guess one can avoid the need to print.. if they hold their nose right.
(1) This hasty bailout WILL NOT SOLVE THE GLOBAL CREDIT CRISIS. All the intelligent economic folks agree on this - Congress needs to hear them, not Paulson.
(2) This hasty bailout COULD EASILY MAKE THINGS WORSE. Giving even more money to the SAME STUPID PEOPLE who have just LOST TRILLIONS is asking for trouble.
(3) Congress must take the time to talk with REAL EXPERTS - those who have foreseen this and been RIGHT about this mess. They have to stop listening to those who have been wrong time after time - and GET A BETTER PLAN.
GDP of US 14,000,000,000,000.00
GDP of world 42,000,000,000,000.00
Amount of private mortgages in default of 30 days back 500,000,000,000.00 (5T at very agressive 10% default 30days+)
Amount of derivatives in shadow banking system 1,400,000,000,000,000.00
Think you can do jack !%$@%$!@ with
250,000,000,000.00
The interesting part is that born-and-bred American dopes would vote for one of the 2, or 3, agents of the Crooks for every position they vote for. They have been brainwashed from birth that it is a civic duty and a way to make a change for the better. It is like I change my underwear. It is clean when I put it on, then it gets dirty and I have to change again. Politicians are like underwear, not fresh and clean for long.
Being doped-for-life is a terrible affliction. Crooks' scheme works like a charm on dopes. It takes two to Tango.
Installment plan, good! Easy as she goes! Now we need to disconnect the hype and bullshit connected to wall street and get accounting under control, find a few dozen Martha Stewarts and then get rid of most of congress and the senate, then get America fired back up and on a new course for energy independence!
Price installments great! Now we need to shut down derivatives, SIFMA, FASB and re-invent wall street and focus on clarity. We all have super computer light speed connections -- but no one can think anymore. We need to have Americans in school and a war on retardation! WTF about that?
First off, we need to get rid of these corrupt fuckers, and I don't mean in three years, I mean fucking NOW:
Re: The ink is barely dry on the Financial Accounting Standards Board's proposal to eliminate the use of the qualified special purpose entity as a means of segregating assets off balance sheet, but industry critics are already appealing to Congress in an effort to avoid the measure.
FASB in April agreed as part of these rewrites to eliminate QSPEs, an accounting device that has come under much criticism over the past several years, with critics saying the practice has contributed to corporate scandals such as Enron by allowing losing or volatile positions to be obscured.
FASB Chairman Robert Herz himself has placed his full clout behind the proposed elimination of the Q' as part of the board's rewrite of FAS 140 and FIN 46R, connecting QSPEs to the sub-prime mortgage crisis and stating pointedly that the vehicles into which riskier loans had been packaged were ticking time bombs.
These are the shitbags connected to a stream of bullshit wrapped around The American Flag and we need to take these Friends Of Paulson and run them the fuck off the planet!
I hold SIFMA and FASB accountable for this systemic crisis and Americans need to educate themselves as to who is behind the derivative bullshit that is causing a financial panic! SIFMA as a lobby group needs to be destroyed today and FASB needs to be held to far higher standards and every member of that shitbag board should resign TODAY!
Congress, Bernake, Paulson can all shove this $700 Billion bailout down our throats, in order to maintain and promote stability, but in this effort to shove and push, and get a deal done as fast as possible -- they should fucking spend two more days and shut down SIFMA and FASB -- and then come back from their little fucking holiday and start working for America taxpayers and disconnetc themselves from The SIFMA lifeline!
But there were fresh signs of trouble in the House Republican Caucus. A group of GOP lawmakers circulated an alternative designed to attract private capital back into the credit markets with less government intrusion.
Under the proposal, the government would provide insurance to companies that agree to buy frozen assets, rather than purchase them directly as envisioned under the administration's plan. The firms would have to pay insurance premiums to the Treasury Department for the coverage.
"The taxpayers haven't done anything wrong," said Rep Eric Cantor, R-Va., adding that rather than require them to bear the cost of the bailout, the alternative "pretty much puts the burden on Wall Street over time."
Rep. John A. Boehner, R-Ohio, the minority leader, was huddling with McCain on the rescue. Earlier, asked whether the GOP presidential nominee could corral restive Republicans to support the plan, Boehner said, "Who knows?"
The only problem is that saying there's a reserve "if Wall Street needs it" is like telling a heroin addict "you can have little bit now, but I'm saving this giant brick that you can only have if you really need it."
Henry Paulson, Realtor(tm):
I know this seems like a lot, but you should talk to my broker here, he can get you into a GREAT affordability product! You can afford this! Heck, you CAN'T NOT afford it! Buy it now or be priced out forever!
Ben Bernanke, Mortgage Broker, Countrywide:
It's true! With our new ULTRA-loan program, you have easy low payments! In fancy banker terms it's called an option-ARM loan, but it's perfect for someone almost 6 trillion dollars in debt. With this AMAZING new loan product, you can pick your low monthly payment, each month! There's a small reset to full amortization payments after 12 months, but don't you worry about that, because your assets will have GROWN in value in that time period! You'll simply be able to refinance, and most likely pull out some cash for "unseen expenditures"! (wink wink)
China Rules!!! Eveyone will learn at least one Chinese language dialect. This is a direct order and non conformists will be sent to reeducation camp. Thanks Dick for the anal probe. (Major snark, I feel much better.)
Re: Under the proposal, the government would provide insurance to companies that agree to buy frozen assets, rather than purchase them directly as envisioned under the administration's plan. The firms would have to pay insurance premiums to the Treasury Department for the coverage.
I don't know, I'm in Paulson support stance today, trying to be a good patriot and understand the need to backstop runs in money markets, but if these shitbags need to add riders and adjust legislation to find some pork to chew on, I say just hang them. We need full clarity and not a circus!
Wow. I went to work for a few hours and look what happened! I called my congressman this morning urging the installment plan.
This is a humiliating defeat for Paulson & Bush. HUMILIATING.
Whether the crisis was 100% real, half real, or delibeately provoked by Paulson/Bush, it became real and needed to be addressed in some way for reasons of politics and short-term market confidence.
In the end I think something like the FDR/Swedish model will be necessary. But for today this was the best outcome practically possible and its shortcomings will set the stage for much better action in the future, under the next President (who might actually be competent).
That was the first thing in a long time that the Treasury has said that actually made sense. Bailouts aren't only about the money, they're about the psychology, and Really Big Numbers have a marked effect on psychology.
IF you go with the assumption that a bailout is the right thing to do, going with a seriously big "Don't Fuck With Me" number is the right way to do it. Anything else is Iraq-war style incrementalism.
The concept that this an MBS crisis is absurd, however, no matter what packages of derivative accounting fraud we are bailing out, the thing is to fix this mess and then hunt down all the bad guys and then restructure the system. Was it Bush who said we have accounting regulations that are 300 years outdated, or was that SIFMA?
brought to its knees by the mortgage default rate plus: mortgage fraud, securities fraud, hyper leverage, accounting fraud, no oversight, incompetence in the executive branch, and powerful domestic and foreign holders of massive national debt.
Trix - Your psychology of Really Big Numbers point is well-taken, but if that were the case, it wasn't wise to have the spokeswoman (ostensibly) telling the truth to Forbes while Paulson is in a Capitol Hill hearing room saying something, er, entirely different to the Senate Banking Committee.
I'm trying to sort through the hype and rhetoric coming from ALL sides here. The goal, as I understand it, is to create a market where there currently isn't one. Could the government simply set up some kind of clearinghouse in which these securities could be listed with all relevant information so that bidders could bid? Sort of like E-Bay for MBSs?
Like on E-Bay, bidders would be anaonymous, so prospective buters wouldn't know if Treasury were bidding or not on a particular lot.
Maybe this bailout will turn out to be a very good thing for everyone even the taxpayers and we won't need to do anything like this again..............................................................................BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I'm killing me.I got a million,no a trillion of them!
for a group of supposed intellectuals... You are all slow!!!!!.... I am going to take all of your money and you at going to whine on a MSG board.... I love life... If you can't figure out how the world really works then may god have mercy on yur soul... Cause lord knows I won't
May as well ask for Santa and the Easter Bunny while you're at it.
AINT HAPPENING.
And another "strongly worded email" to Congress will accomplish exactly as much as the last one - until there are angry people clogging up the streets nobody in Congress cares what you think.
So the question is - does all the righteous anger on CR amount to even one public protest? I bet not, this seems more of a Talking crowd than a Doing crowd.
ella-I'm not sure there is a real efficient market now. These babies are held in little corners all over the world. You locate some and you bid 20 cents on the $. The holder says no. Now what? If you had a real auction, you could see if there were other bidders and you might raise your price. The seller would see if you were the only bidder and might take your price. That's why we have markets, isn't it? Just setting up real markets would be useful, whether Treasury actually bid or not.
tough guy from high school writes:
for a group of supposed intellectuals...
--
Bingo, you nailed it.
Woody Allen: "Has anybody read that Nazis are gonna march in New Jersey? Ya know? I read it in the newspaper. We should go down there, get some guys together, ya know, get some bricks and baseball bats, and really explain things to 'em."
Victor Truro: "There was this devastating satirical piece on that on the op-ed page of the Times - devastating!"
Allen: "Whoa, whoa. A satirical piece in the Times is one thing, but bricks and baseball bats really gets right to the point of it."
Helen Hanft: "Oh, but really biting satire is always better than physical
force."
Allen: "No, physical force is always better with Nazis."
In Alaska ,I want all rape victims(It's their own fault) to pay for Rape Kits($300) so I want all of you in the lower 49 to do the same.....................1st Dude Todd Palin "FUCKIN A".
ella-You can find a buyer for anything, but the advantage of an E-Bay like bidding process is to find the best price. How do you (or mer) know there wasn't someone that might have paid more? Why have markets for anything? It's to bring large #s of buyers and sellers together. So far, I haven't seen that happening. I'd like to see Treasury mediate that-they might end up moving some of this crap without having to buy them themselves.
boo
1st
Ah, an installment plan.
Act now and we'll throw in an extra bottle of lubricant, absolutely free!
rent to ow
What will the plan affect TED spread?
I can haz equity stake?
Equity?
(I've given up dreaming of anything higher in the capital structure...)
So the FED continues to manipulate the markets to continue to get their installments, which I imagine will end up going much beyond the 700b. Sounds like a nifty plan to me.
It's still way too big. These changes and conditions aren't going to make this obscenity any better. You can polish a turd all you want but it's still going to be a turd.
The bailout for billionaires needs to die.
250b flushed into bad guy's pockets.
nice.
that should about pay for the fees for this looting debacle.
anybody keeping a running total?
This is like Friday the 13th in all of it's glorious "installments"...much better.
Didn't HP say that 700 billion was the minimum they needed?
"Like how you bought your couch, payment plans. Remember how your mother brought in $10 everyday for a year and she finally got her couch Rent-A-Center Style?"
.....
Act now, offer not valid after November 4, 2008! Operators are standing by!
Can't wait for halloween...could be one to remember!!
You have to like Sen Shelby's stance. Brings up a good point that leading economists are against this plan. he looks like a giat next to ERi
Quoting people familiar with the matter, the Journal's online report also said the bill contains limits on "golden parachutes" paid to executives and that warrants would apply to all companies.
US bailout bill has $250 bln 1st installment-WSJ
| Reuters
How many little pigmen are slipping out the back door.
Seems like somebody likes the bailout:
Nov. crude closes at $108.02/brl on Nymex, up $2.29, or 2.2%
the lay-a-way pla
the price action on FRE & FNM was quite dramatic
When your kids are up on the auction block, it is just a matter of idle curiosity to know what price they brought.
Exactly how will they know if they are unhappy?
Erin is rubbing against Senator Shelby like a Minx in heat.
He seems appalled.
I still want no bailout, but I agree with the installments. First $250 before the elections, the next one, well, things have changed, you know, please give me your badge, you have 5 minutes to collect your personal effects.
We're all Russian now!
Could the "installment" nature of the plan actually be a stick used to encourage asset sellers to be reasonable on their pricing demands? To force them to compete? Otherwise, we won't buy all the crap out there.
Or - if this process actually builds some kind of genuine order/sanity/discovery into the pricing - and private money steps in to participate?
I am sure I am naively optimistic here.
Exactly how will they know if they are unhappy?
Geoff
LOL!
GS gave out $40 billion in bonus money in 2007.
Think about that.
If they don't need ALL the money NOW, why couldn't this wait again?
blackhat writes:
I still want no bailout, but I agree with the installments. First $250 before the elections, the next one, well, things have changed, you know, please give me your badge, you have 5 minutes to collect your personal effects.
...and leave your bazooka on my desk.
Why are they passing the
Omnibus
Mortgage &
Financial
Guaranty Corp.
bill when so many people are clearly against a bailout of any kind?
Ooo, I think I feel the first "installment" now
Sounds like Congress is selling the Treasury a plasma TV.
She is quite the socialist sauce pot... giggling and smirking with glee as Senator Shelby gravely remarks about the burden this will place on our children.
She has no idea how inappropriate she comes across...
TED at 3.03. Hmmm.
The cram down provision got lost in the shuffle, so it's just the bail out with equity, executive pay and oversight added. Wonder what else will be dropped before it
s signed into law. Conference committee changes anyone?
looks positive so far
OIL UP...
SPIKING HARD
"karelian writes:
She is quite the socialist sauce pot... giggling and smirking with glee as Senator Shelby gravely remarks about the burden this will place on our children.
She has no idea how inappropriate she comes across...'
Who's that.... Pelosi? lol
Comrade Anonymous writes:
We're all Russian now!
Don't insult us and you will get bailout like you bailed out of georgia.
You can polish a turd all you want but it's still going to be a turd.
True. But at least now it can be handled it from the clean end.
"blackhat writes:
I still want no bailout, but I agree with the installments. First $250 before the elections, the next one, well, things have changed, you know, please give me your badge, you have 5 minutes to collect your personal effects.
blackhat | 09.25.08 - 2:55 pm | # "
Exactly. As Buffy would say, "they are evil and they must be stopped."
Its starting to rain here in VA and DC, looks like there won't be any protests.
Tropical Storm right on schedule
This was one of the good suggestions that came from Congress (and probably all of you).
I don't think it is a good suggestion at all.
We don't need a bailout. This BS that the world would end is nonsense.
The economy would be better served by debt reduction (defaults) rather than debt support via a bailout.
$250 billion wasted making fat cats rich and impairing the credit markets is better than $700 billion. But it's still really, really bad.
PS wanna bet the first use will be for GS to buy ultra-cheap securities from the corpse of WAMU and turn around to get a massive profit from the Feds?
TED 3.04. Rising.
Because after you throw away 250 billion, the program can be stopped cold?
Salami tactics.
--
Politicians' job is to keep the American People in line while the Crooks do their thing.
Everything is as it should be as per the true nature of our system.
Jas
von Mises writes:
1. Propose something completely outrageous so that people get mad.
2. Once people have calmed a bit, reduce the proposition somewhat. People thus get happy it wasn't worse.
You smart but world use different model economics.
To bad 99.999% of Americans opposed to the bailout are only upset enough to write complaining emails.
"Whoa, whoa. A satirical piece in the Times is one thing, but bricks and baseball bats really gets right to the point of it."
The language about the equity stakes still seems a little squishy.
No equity, no deal, baby!
I don't think you are.
This plan will be an administrative nightmare, and making it transparent will defeat a lot of the purpose Bernanke and Paulson set for it.
I'll bet that not more than $250 billion ever gets spent.
There is going to have to be another approach with a whole new cast and this installment buys time to get there. It's a win for taxpayers and a big loss for Paulson/Bernanke. It strips away their ability to funnel vast quantities of money to prop up the stock market and failing institutions. There's not enough for everyone in need, so it will have to be more fair and transparent and the prices will have to be closer to reality.
How pathetic. What a system.
I dont think the republicans have given up - they seem to want so badly to vote. Please keep faxing and calling.
I have never sent a letter to congress - I have send 6 today. And to my local media.
SR
Well 250bil is not really a lot of money compared to what we spend on the Generals toys which never work
Is it at all possible that the closed door meetings with the finance committees of the house and senate didn't take into consideration that they had to get everyone else to vote for this as well.
I am wondering that if once the doors opened all the other congressmen will say, no way no how?
Is that even remotely possible?
We're gonna be all right
Why not ask our oil company buddies to kick down a few bil? Or use all future off-shore drilling proceeds to contribute to the bailout fund?
Curlydan writes:
The language about the equity stakes still seems a little squishy.
No equity, no deal, baby!
You take equity, value is zero. Deal?
Dont forget - the auto guys get 25B today...yippie corporate welfare
The weather is peferct in Atlanta , anyone going to the Atlanta Fed this afternoon or tomorrow AM . I don't think my presence in front of the Rsowell Edward Jones office in Roswell would be very effective
.
If this was/is an actual crisis of such grand magnitude.. this is a bad idea.. the main ingredient of successfully preventing total financial disaster is hitting the crisis with so much money that.. it's inconceivable that all of it will be needed..
The trickle it out method seems like a bad idea.. but guess we'll see soon enough.
Read "Manias, Panics, and Crashes: A History of Financial Crises" by Kindleberger for perspective on this issue.
Personally, I think they should hit it with $2 - $3 trillion instantly.. but whatever.
Conference committee changes anyone?
I doubt it. These negotiations were the conference committee.
I think plan will be revealed shortly after close today. WM will be closed as expected, tomorrow after close.
Bailout to be in Installments
We shall remove limbs in an orderly fashion.
DD49--both House and Senate were in that room. They'll both vote on exactly the same bill, no amendments allowed in either chamber.
If nobody objects, it could be done in a matter of hours.
If one Senator decides to do object and make everyone's life difficult, they could delay it for about 80 hours all by their lonesome. After that it will take 40 votes to slow it down.
I guarantee you there are not 40 votes to slow this down. That was part of the deal making.
Lot's of great banks out there folks, keep calm!
Bank or Credit Union Star Ratings
So it will take $250B for the public to finally realize they have been had.
Nice work if you can get it.
Could the "installment" nature of the plan actually be a stick used to encourage asset sellers to be reasonable on their pricing demands? To force them to compete? Otherwise, we won't buy all the crap out there.
We can hope. The 250 amount is too high for my liking, but installment was a good play. Gimme more details, please!
Hey, check this out...
buymyshitpile.com
Just called Rep & 2 Senators. Calls running very strong, nearly all oppose bailout. They are justifying their willingness to move ahead with this in spite of overwhelming public opposition because the "consequences of inaction > consequences of public disappointment".
Need to sharpen our message, folks. They've got a shield to hide behind, and we need to remove it.
Who can phrase a question that demolishes that smokescreen? Can you post it, so the pitchfork-and-musket crowd can attack their last bastion?
I'm getting the impression that this is not a done deal, that the rank and file are not aboard. This has to go to a vote. The details of the legislation are not available for review. Not a done deal. Don't be buffaloed by the stampeders-in-chief.
United States House of Representatives, 111th Congress, 1st Session
U.S. Senate
Both servers are slow (overloaded). Do your best to overwhelm the system.
Need those fightin' words, guys. Can you help us?
The baton gets passed on
Today the Chinese launched a space mission with their first spacewalk
The installment plan is one more item to barter away and probably won't show up in the final bill. Corrupt b*stards.
found this:
Support the $700 Billion Mortgage Bailout
To:
President George Bush
Sen. Joseph Biden
Sen. Thomas Carper
Rep. Michael Castle
September 25, 2008
I support the proposed bailout plan because Someone has to support the
thiefs ,or we all will go down with them, all these big fat cat C.E.O.
don't they have any heart while they are filling their pockets? shame on you
all ! some day you will meet your maker ! what will you tell HIM ? remember
you can't take it with you " the FOOL said in his heart ,there is no God,"!
is that what you guys are thinking ? I will pray for your souls
Mr William Watts
lincoln , DE
this was the only letter titled "support" inn this link:
Congress.org - : Issues and Action
the price action on FRE & FNM was quite dramatic
I have yet to meet anyone who owns shares and can discuss valuation intelligently. All my cases fall into, well maybe it will pay off at the end, or greater fool theory.
We can hope. The 250 amount is too high for my liking, but installment was a good play. Gimme more details, please!
250b is nothing, they give out 50-70b a week gone in 5 weeks or less.
you see it will be more.
Bailout to be in Installments
The farmer's neighbor came over and saw the farmers pet pig hobbling around on just 3 legs. Neighbor says to the farmer "What happened to your pet pig?"
Farmer replies
"Hell, you don't expect me to eat my pet all at once do you?"
Installment Plan Terms:
3pm 250 billion
4pm 100 billion
5pm 100 billion
6pm 100 billion
...
...
...
midnight(anyone looking?)
12am 350 billion
1am 350 billion
rinse/rapre/repeat
I wouldn't be surprised if the final bill has some sorts of limits of FED pay-outs as well
All I have continually said to congressmen is that this does not deserve tax payer money. Find another way to fund it or don't do it. Everyone was focusing on semantics "they don't support THIS bailout" so they changed it and will pass it. I support NO bailouts. Let the banks figure it out if they are so hard up, let them borrow from China, that's where the money is going to come from anyways.
is the math right:
Congress.org - : Letter to Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-California): Bail Out Plan
They should limit the 1st inastalment to a dollar amount equal to the stars in the Milkey way
If I recall Iraqistan War was done on the installment plan too... how did that turn out?
Doc H,
It's not about what regional banks are not yet insolvent, it's about an attempted bailout of the highly leveraged derivative market using borrowed funds.
You can debate the efficacy of it in a free society and free market with a democratic consensus. since that is not our current environment, we can roll over or act within whatever rule of law remains.
CR,
Any beta language for the bill aside from mass media?
Better use of the money--re-fund the Small Business Administration after the huge, idiotic Bush cuts. The SBA can provide guarantees to banks lending to small businesses. This is where the real credit crunch is right now, the one affecting the economy. Lending standards can remain prudent and still do a world of good.
But small businesses don't have a friend at the Treasury or in the White House.
Do we get equity though?
No equity no bailout!!!
MsAnnaNOLA writes:
Do we get equity though?
No equity no bailout!!!
Why you want equity that is negative?
Classic trick it is.
Funny no one has suggested paying for this by taxing hedge fund managers more than 15%.
Actually, not funny.
Soooo,
Does this mean that McCain is now free Friday night?
blackhat, I'm looking - nothing yet. Hopefully I'll get a copy.
Best Wishes.
Still unresolved is whether the bill will include a provision allowing bankruptcy judges to change mortgage terms. The Treasury would have $250 billion available immediately, said a Senate aide, who requested anonymity [...]
Frank said a Democratic provision to let judges rewrite mortgage terms for homeowners in bankruptcy proceedings is the "most controversial" and remains an "outstanding issue."
"We pushed very strongly for it," Frank said. "We haven't resolved it yet."
"Bankruptcy is the one issue where our Republican colleagues told us they thought that would blow up the whole thing," Frank told reporters. "So it hasn't been finally resolved, but that's on the table."
Lawmakers Agree on `Principles' of Economic Rescue (Update6) - Bloomberg.com
DD49--both House and Senate were in that room. They'll both vote on exactly the same bill, no amendments allowed in either chamber.
If nobody objects, it could be done in a matter of hours.
Sorry, you missed my point. The public face of this law (news media today) could be different than the law that is signed. Removed exec comp issue for example in committee. Law is signed and Congress moves on. Who could have know? Secretarial mistake, blather. But another one of the "promises" made public goes away. I'll still don't trust any of these guys even with a "gun" to their heads.
comrade alan greenspend ,
I know, I'm the original Yahoo message board poster that has been on top of derivatives for 10 years -- but we need people to be calm and just find accountable banks -- the rest will fall into place over the next several years:
"They should limit the 1st inastalment to a dollar amount equal to the stars in the Milkey way"
100 million? Made me think of this video. A must-see:
YouTube - Monty python - universe song
Eli:
Personally, I think they should hit it with $2 - $3 trillion instantly.. but whatever.
Eli, have you considered they need to raise the money?
So the FED is the lender of last resort, and the Treasury is now the fixed-income investor of last resort. If you know the right people you can't lose.
Thanks CR.
Reps are on speed dial as soon as I can read through.
thier trying to bull rush the close
These new $250B in T-bills will have to bought by 3rd parties?
So what is going to support these IOUs at current yields?
This my friends will be a NO BID market.
They won't listen. CONgress only hears the sound of money. Pull yours out of the system, and if enough folks do it, maybe they will listen.
--
Dollar Cost Averaging?
Right from the playbook of BFNYC??
Jas
TED at 3.05...
BofA online banking sign-in won't load. Hope the credit freeze has hit the paycheck printer as well.
If this passes our next hope is that no one buys the t-bills.
Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?
buymyshitpile.com
"I have yet to meet anyone who owns shares and can discuss valuation intelligently. All my cases fall into, well maybe it will pay off at the end, or greater fool theory."
so true JP, so true
MsAnnaNOLA writes:
Do we get equity though?
No equity no bailout!!!
That's why warrants are being discussed as part of the bill:
see Wikipedia entry:
In finance, a warrant is a security that entitles the holder to buy stock of the company that issued it at a specified price, which is usually higher than the stock price at time of issue.
Warrants are frequently attached to bonds or preferred stock as a sweetener, allowing the issuer to pay lower interest rates or dividends. They can be used to enhance the yield of the bond, and make them more attractive to potential buyers. Warrants can also be used in private equity deals. For instance, it was a common practice during the height of the dot-com bubble for a landlord of sought-after commercial real-estate to demand warrants from high-tech startups as part of the lease agreement. Frequently, these warrants are detachable, and can be sold independently of the bond or stock.
It strips away their ability to funnel vast quantities of money to prop up the stock market and failing institutions.
Umm, $250,000,000,000 isn't a "vast quantity of money"?
"In Soviet America, Main Street provide jobs to Wall Street!"
After all those years of wasting money, the Congress just saved us all $450 Billion.
Looks like that was the bottom for Congress. Great job, dudes!
Something had to pass: a "crisis" had been declared. And the only way out from the dead-end alley the admin had backed them into was for everyone to hold hands, together, declare "success", and quickly walk back as one. Whether the final bill did anything was no longer the point.
The installment plan ensures no more than the first installment ever gets paid: once set-up, the problems with the execution will become obvious, and it would be radioactive to vote again on this dog. They'll move on to another, more opaque, "solution".
Ted's dead baby
Ted's day
LIBOR is a figment of the imagination, no one is doing unsecured lending
FED TAF that is secured was higher the other day
LIBOR is a beauty contest and no one is willing to fess up to what they see in the mirror
Malcom X once said that you can't stab someone in the back 7 inches, pull the knife out 2 inches and call it progress. Likewise, you can't stab someone in the back two inches at a time up to the hilt and call it a compromise.
I get the same thing with BOA except it says specifically that "on-line banking is temp unavailable for NY customers"
???
Fed rate cut with passage... Pavlovian tactics...
CR,
How does this plan (or any other form of the plan) change the massive exposure for protection sellers on the trillions and trillions of dollars of Credit Default Swaps and other derivatives. These contracts were mainly based on a--let's say--"questionable" view of the probabilities of the events we have been seeing and the exposures are unspeakably massive. What does this f---ing plan change? Massive exposure and liability on the swaps on any mortgage related instruments/debt/etc. is a fait accompli. Even $700 Billion doesn't come close. Where is this going?
JS,
nice.
doc,
fair enough. but i don't think this blog has the inherent ability to start or stop a bank run, that will be predetermined by how the derivatives unwind. your opinion is that this bailout will fix it all in a couple of years. perhaps, i've been wrong before, guessing the date of the recession for example.
so your bet is no crash.
my bet is after the TIC data is released in a couple of weeks.
anybody else?
Honey how can I plunge the toxic mortgages out of the plumbing when the pipes are rotted and the bill is some WHOTHE%!@#%!@$KNOWS percentage of
1,400,000,000,000,000.00 (BIS 2qtr2008 total derivatives)
--
"Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?"
You mean getting mugged in a bad neighborhood?
BFNYC operates via mugging (very wide net0 and they hire muggers.
Got to be careful and watch out in a bad neighborhood.
Jas
BofA is also unavailable here. Looks like I will be stopping by the ATM on the way home just in case.
ew thread
Eli, have you considered they need to raise the money?
Anonymous Wag,
My expectation is they the money supply, in circulation, will be doubled or tripled anyway (i.e. they'll just print it).. it's just a matter of how bad things get before that is done.
Last I looked.. total currency (if looked at in US$ terms) in circulation was around $4 trillion.
CDS contracts were around notional $50 trillion (this was back in December 2007 when I was doing the numbers)
The swaps are what will do us in.. either you inflate.. or just negate the swaps.. or try to hold on until the contracts expire.. I guess..
They sure aren't writing any more credit default swaps.. these days.
So.. I guess one can avoid the need to print.. if they hold their nose right.
JS - Graphic and honest.
Trader Hank needs a shotgun so he can kill all the shadows he sees...
STOP THE HASTY BAILOUT BILL!
(1) This hasty bailout WILL NOT SOLVE THE GLOBAL CREDIT CRISIS. All the intelligent economic folks agree on this - Congress needs to hear them, not Paulson.
(2) This hasty bailout COULD EASILY MAKE THINGS WORSE. Giving even more money to the SAME STUPID PEOPLE who have just LOST TRILLIONS is asking for trouble.
(3) Congress must take the time to talk with REAL EXPERTS - those who have foreseen this and been RIGHT about this mess. They have to stop listening to those who have been wrong time after time - and GET A BETTER PLAN.
Uncle B, where the F are you dude, I need you man!
GDP of US 14,000,000,000,000.00
GDP of world 42,000,000,000,000.00
Amount of private mortgages in default of 30 days back 500,000,000,000.00 (5T at very agressive 10% default 30days+)
Amount of derivatives in shadow banking system 1,400,000,000,000,000.00
Think you can do jack !%$@%$!@ with
250,000,000,000.00
Deranged? yeh but also
FLIPPIN' PRICELESS
hey... at least the car shops got their 25 bill with no strings...
CDS contracts were around notional $50 trillion (this was back in December 2007 when I was doing the numbers)
Just looked at the isda site.. once the 2007 report came out.. Credit Default Swaps were up to notional $62 trillion.
So.. hard to keep track..
Good, now everybody run out and fill your gas tanks, oh and buy some new vehicles. For a while there I thought we were in trouble.
--
On Politicians...
The interesting part is that born-and-bred American dopes would vote for one of the 2, or 3, agents of the Crooks for every position they vote for. They have been brainwashed from birth that it is a civic duty and a way to make a change for the better. It is like I change my underwear. It is clean when I put it on, then it gets dirty and I have to change again. Politicians are like underwear, not fresh and clean for long.
Being doped-for-life is a terrible affliction. Crooks' scheme works like a charm on dopes. It takes two to Tango.
Jas
Installment plan, good! Easy as she goes! Now we need to disconnect the hype and bullshit connected to wall street and get accounting under control, find a few dozen Martha Stewarts and then get rid of most of congress and the senate, then get America fired back up and on a new course for energy independence!
Price installments great! Now we need to shut down derivatives, SIFMA, FASB and re-invent wall street and focus on clarity. We all have super computer light speed connections -- but no one can think anymore. We need to have Americans in school and a war on retardation! WTF about that?
Doc your a funny dood man!
First off, we need to get rid of these corrupt fuckers, and I don't mean in three years, I mean fucking NOW:
Re: The ink is barely dry on the Financial Accounting Standards Board's proposal to eliminate the use of the qualified special purpose entity as a means of segregating assets off balance sheet, but industry critics are already appealing to Congress in an effort to avoid the measure.
FASB in April agreed as part of these rewrites to eliminate QSPEs, an accounting device that has come under much criticism over the past several years, with critics saying the practice has contributed to corporate scandals such as Enron by allowing losing or volatile positions to be obscured.
FASB Chairman Robert Herz himself has placed his full clout behind the proposed elimination of the Q' as part of the board's rewrite of FAS 140 and FIN 46R, connecting QSPEs to the sub-prime mortgage crisis and stating pointedly that the vehicles into which riskier loans had been packaged were ticking time bombs.
Markets Media Online - Driven by Content
These are the shitbags connected to a stream of bullshit wrapped around The American Flag and we need to take these Friends Of Paulson and run them the fuck off the planet!
Attention! "the beatings will continue, until morale improves."
I hold SIFMA and FASB accountable for this systemic crisis and Americans need to educate themselves as to who is behind the derivative bullshit that is causing a financial panic! SIFMA as a lobby group needs to be destroyed today and FASB needs to be held to far higher standards and every member of that shitbag board should resign TODAY!
Plain and simple, we are expierencing the "tyranny of the minority".
Congress, Bernake, Paulson can all shove this $700 Billion bailout down our throats, in order to maintain and promote stability, but in this effort to shove and push, and get a deal done as fast as possible -- they should fucking spend two more days and shut down SIFMA and FASB -- and then come back from their little fucking holiday and start working for America taxpayers and disconnetc themselves from The SIFMA lifeline!
Holiday??, they've been on fucking holiday this whole time!
John Lydon writes:
Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?
John Lydon | 09.25.08 - 3:18 pm |
You're rotten, John.
cheated??, they've been cheating the shit out us this whole time too!
Re: Holiday??, they've been on fucking holiday this whole time!
Yah, I know and that should be obvious to anyone that can vote in a few weeks!
One ore thing:
I don't want any more fucking junkmail from banks; I have too much stuff backed as it is!
It ain't a done deal yet:
Yahoo! 404 - Page Not Found
But there were fresh signs of trouble in the House Republican Caucus. A group of GOP lawmakers circulated an alternative designed to attract private capital back into the credit markets with less government intrusion.
Under the proposal, the government would provide insurance to companies that agree to buy frozen assets, rather than purchase them directly as envisioned under the administration's plan. The firms would have to pay insurance premiums to the Treasury Department for the coverage.
"The taxpayers haven't done anything wrong," said Rep Eric Cantor, R-Va., adding that rather than require them to bear the cost of the bailout, the alternative "pretty much puts the burden on Wall Street over time."
Rep. John A. Boehner, R-Ohio, the minority leader, was huddling with McCain on the rescue. Earlier, asked whether the GOP presidential nominee could corral restive Republicans to support the plan, Boehner said, "Who knows?"
Am I the only one who missed this on Tuesday:
From Forbes:
"In fact, some of the most basic details, including the $700 billion figure Treasury would use to buy up bad debt, are fuzzy.
"It's not based on any particular data point," a Treasury spokeswoman told Forbes.com Tuesday. "We just wanted to choose a really large number."
The only thing more idiotic than that approach is actually admitting to it.
Bad News For The Bailout - Forbes.com
Doc, do what I do....I take all my junk from one bank, and mail it to another bank in their return envelope.
The only problem is that saying there's a reserve "if Wall Street needs it" is like telling a heroin addict "you can have little bit now, but I'm saving this giant brick that you can only have if you really need it."
Henry Paulson, Realtor(tm):
I know this seems like a lot, but you should talk to my broker here, he can get you into a GREAT affordability product! You can afford this! Heck, you CAN'T NOT afford it! Buy it now or be priced out forever!
Ben Bernanke, Mortgage Broker, Countrywide:
It's true! With our new ULTRA-loan program, you have easy low payments! In fancy banker terms it's called an option-ARM loan, but it's perfect for someone almost 6 trillion dollars in debt. With this AMAZING new loan product, you can pick your low monthly payment, each month! There's a small reset to full amortization payments after 12 months, but don't you worry about that, because your assets will have GROWN in value in that time period! You'll simply be able to refinance, and most likely pull out some cash for "unseen expenditures"! (wink wink)
Congress:
Aw heck, let's do it! Where do I sign!?
"Didn't HP say that 700 billion was the minimum they needed?"
Paulson lied.
....I guess I should go to lunch now, hell, I figure I will need something to throw up!
you go Doc H!!
China Rules!!! Eveyone will learn at least one Chinese language dialect. This is a direct order and non conformists will be sent to reeducation camp. Thanks Dick for the anal probe. (Major snark, I feel much better.)
P.S. CR: Great work as always.
Re: Under the proposal, the government would provide insurance to companies that agree to buy frozen assets, rather than purchase them directly as envisioned under the administration's plan. The firms would have to pay insurance premiums to the Treasury Department for the coverage.
Every creature deserves a warm meal (including members of congress):
YouTube - Austin Powers - Sharks with lasers
Wow. I went to work for a few hours and look what happened! I called my congressman this morning urging the installment plan.
This is a humiliating defeat for Paulson & Bush. HUMILIATING.
Whether the crisis was 100% real, half real, or delibeately provoked by Paulson/Bush, it became real and needed to be addressed in some way for reasons of politics and short-term market confidence.
In the end I think something like the FDR/Swedish model will be necessary. But for today this was the best outcome practically possible and its shortcomings will set the stage for much better action in the future, under the next President (who might actually be competent).
So, let's see if I understand this.
The multi-trillion dollar global credit market has been brought to its knees because 6% of American mortgage holders are in default.
Does anyone seriously believe this?
"Ever get the felling you've been cheated?"
Cheat me once shame on you.
Cheat me twice shame on me.
"We just wanted to choose a really large number."
That was the first thing in a long time that the Treasury has said that actually made sense. Bailouts aren't only about the money, they're about the psychology, and Really Big Numbers have a marked effect on psychology.
IF you go with the assumption that a bailout is the right thing to do, going with a seriously big "Don't Fuck With Me" number is the right way to do it. Anything else is Iraq-war style incrementalism.
ella,
Since I'm still here...
The concept that this an MBS crisis is absurd, however, no matter what packages of derivative accounting fraud we are bailing out, the thing is to fix this mess and then hunt down all the bad guys and then restructure the system. Was it Bush who said we have accounting regulations that are 300 years outdated, or was that SIFMA?
brought to its knees by the mortgage default rate plus: mortgage fraud, securities fraud, hyper leverage, accounting fraud, no oversight, incompetence in the executive branch, and powerful domestic and foreign holders of massive national debt.
this is salvador allende's revenge.
Henry Kissinger's "make the chilean economy scream" right back at us.
Trix - Your psychology of Really Big Numbers point is well-taken, but if that were the case, it wasn't wise to have the spokeswoman (ostensibly) telling the truth to Forbes while Paulson is in a Capitol Hill hearing room saying something, er, entirely different to the Senate Banking Committee.
I'm trying to sort through the hype and rhetoric coming from ALL sides here. The goal, as I understand it, is to create a market where there currently isn't one. Could the government simply set up some kind of clearinghouse in which these securities could be listed with all relevant information so that bidders could bid? Sort of like E-Bay for MBSs?
Like on E-Bay, bidders would be anaonymous, so prospective buters wouldn't know if Treasury were bidding or not on a particular lot.
Thanks!
I thought I was losing my mind listening to the dribble on the MSM.
Maybe this bailout will turn out to be a very good thing for everyone even the taxpayers and we won't need to do anything like this again..............................................................................BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I'm killing me.I got a million,no a trillion of them!
Ricky, Guess what there is a market now. They just don't like the price.
TRANSPARENCY.
I want to know who sells and buys what, and at what prices, with my taxes.
Are we getting any stocks for the capital we are providing to those Wall Street bastards with?
TRANSPARENCY and ACCOUNTABILITY.
The law applies to all of us equally.
Maybe this is one of Bush's 5 no 8 no no 10 no no wait "11 Points of Light"!
for a group of supposed intellectuals... You are all slow!!!!!.... I am going to take all of your money and you at going to whine on a MSG board.... I love life... If you can't figure out how the world really works then may god have mercy on yur soul... Cause lord knows I won't
I can haz "Point of Light"?
TRANSPARENCY and ACCOUNTABILITY.
May as well ask for Santa and the Easter Bunny while you're at it.
AINT HAPPENING.
And another "strongly worded email" to Congress will accomplish exactly as much as the last one - until there are angry people clogging up the streets nobody in Congress cares what you think.
So the question is - does all the righteous anger on CR amount to even one public protest? I bet not, this seems more of a Talking crowd than a Doing crowd.
So here we are...
ella-I'm not sure there is a real efficient market now. These babies are held in little corners all over the world. You locate some and you bid 20 cents on the $. The holder says no. Now what? If you had a real auction, you could see if there were other bidders and you might raise your price. The seller would see if you were the only bidder and might take your price. That's why we have markets, isn't it? Just setting up real markets would be useful, whether Treasury actually bid or not.
tough guy from high school writes:
for a group of supposed intellectuals...
--
Bingo, you nailed it.
Woody Allen: "Has anybody read that Nazis are gonna march in New Jersey? Ya know? I read it in the newspaper. We should go down there, get some guys together, ya know, get some bricks and baseball bats, and really explain things to 'em."
Victor Truro: "There was this devastating satirical piece on that on the op-ed page of the Times - devastating!"
Allen: "Whoa, whoa. A satirical piece in the Times is one thing, but bricks and baseball bats really gets right to the point of it."
Helen Hanft: "Oh, but really biting satire is always better than physical
force."
Allen: "No, physical force is always better with Nazis."
Ricky Ricardo, Mer sold a ton of this stuff not long ago. If they can find a buyer, why not others?
Did any of you call 911?
Because it looks like U just got raped.
In Alaska ,I want all rape victims(It's their own fault) to pay for Rape Kits($300) so I want all of you in the lower 49 to do the same.....................1st Dude Todd Palin "FUCKIN A".
ella-You can find a buyer for anything, but the advantage of an E-Bay like bidding process is to find the best price. How do you (or mer) know there wasn't someone that might have paid more? Why have markets for anything? It's to bring large #s of buyers and sellers together. So far, I haven't seen that happening. I'd like to see Treasury mediate that-they might end up moving some of this crap without having to buy them themselves.
"We're in the money" "We're in the money"
"and God bless the Fatcats and give them everything they want"
"Apples 5 cents apples 5 cents Please buy a apple mister Want to go back in the alley with my mother or sister Please Mister"