The FED and Treasury should put up 5T and use it judiciously over time as to not cause more damage than needed. That sum should be substantial enough.
For the Taxpayers to really come out on tops, the agreement should be punitive to the institutions and structured on terms like what Buffett got on Goldman and similar to the AIG bailout.
That is the the best and only way forward that would benefit the Taxpayers.
Any other way and you will have a consolidation of banks like in the likes of GS, JPM, BoA, MS etc.
And to make matters worse if these newly consolidated banks get into more trouble down the road, the Treasury and FED will have to, you guessed it , bail them out again for they are too big to fail.
As it is the consolidation continues and the banks, once again are morphed and evolved into .... another bank.
Truly some institutions cannot be allowed to fail.
The House Republicans are serious about not passing the bailout. Therefore, I do not foresee a bailout.
But what I don't understand is why the markets are so excited over a plan which has been so universally derided. The only people who seem to like it are Paulson and the Democrats. The public hates it, economists and analysts are saying it won't work. And it's only going to pile a ton of debt on top of the mountain on which we're currently sitting.
By the way what's up with Citi being involved in WAMU talks and now WB talks? I thought they were hurting and facing much more confessional time as well as dilutive capital raises...
I Am Not My Bankers Keeper writes:
Will you guys please quit calling the congressional switchboard, I am trying to get a hold of someone to ask for my ponie. The lines are crazy busy.
I already got my request in this morning. The lady was not amused when I explained how it works. I told her I was dead serious.
I say we all call and ask for a pony. Maybe they'll get the message.
seem to me the independent voters are porlly against bailing out the pinstripes...and as they both want he independents, I would assume that neither party wants to be seen as the champion of this thing...not that it won't happen but it won't happen by magic.
Federal Reserve H.8 report, just out at 4:15 EDT, shows U.S. total commercial bank credit up $130B last week; up 8% year-on-year. Had not risen significantly from February/March through Sept 3/10.
I'm starting to think the phrase "people briefed on the matter said" is going to go down in 2008's hall of infamy. It's not even hearsay, it could be any level of indirection between the principals and the briefers.
Will you guys please quit calling the congressional switchboard, I am trying to get a hold of someone to ask for my ponie. The lines are crazy busy.
on another note, out of nowhere the cashier at home depot starts compalining about the bailout. The sheeple are waking up.
I Am Not My Bankers Keeper
I agree, I have been trading emails with a few people today about it. Informed or not, these are people who I was mentioning it to last weekend with the return of blank stares. The longer this lingers the more j6p gets news of it and probably doesn't like it.
Reluctant Serf Ken writes:
I'm starting to think the phrase "people briefed on the matter said" is going to go down in 2008's hall of infamy. It's not even hearsay, it could be any level of indirection between the principals and the briefers.
Reluctant Serf Ken | Homepage | 09.26.08 - 4:43 pm | #
FDIC: FDIC: Enforcement Decisions and Orders
FDIC Enforcement Decisions and Orders
The FDIC Enforcement Decisions and Orders (ED&O) contains the full text of the formal enforcement actions against financial institutions that are regulated by the FDIC or against their affiliated parties. The ED&O is updated on a monthly basis.
Nancy Pelosi is going to learn an interesting lesson in politics, I think. Like do not go along with whatever the most unpopular president in history says.
@ Get Shawdy
You think all of those banks are closed by the FDIC(k) today? List looks a little long to me. Even if all those closures were prudent it might start a run.
IF McCain plays this right (and he may have stumbled a bit already on the debate) I think he can decimate Obama. I mean the whole "mccain = 3rd bush term" stuff is now exposed for the stupid mantra it was. Plus, the majority of the nation is with McCain on the bailout issue. (unless we have a huge crash and things change...)
I'm awesome.
Just wanted everyone to know that.
This bailout is getting done so screw you guys. No equity for the taxpayers - that will dilute me and it aint going to happen. I wont allow it and I'm the richest guy in the world. I call the president right now he'll stop everything he is doing to talk to me. Same with Paulson and Bernanke, and anyone in the media.
No one says anything bad about me because I am awesome and could bury anyone.
I am a God and I can get away with whatever I want.
I'll get that $40B put I sold last year back in the money soon. You'll see.
Also, my investment portfolio is going to come back strong.
I can move markets. You cant.
I'm awesome and well connected. dont bet against me or Goldman Sachs or you'll be sorry.
I keep thinking about BB's testimony several months ago and his theory of containment and then I think about Hanky Panky's grand dreams of the SIV and wonder how anyone can believe anything any more...
Add a touch of push and I'm going with the Tao of Pooh. Just do the opposite of what got you the wrong answer the first time.
Example. I lost my glasses, so I look for my glasses but I still dont find them. But when I dont look for my glasses I find them...
Carlo Basically, they have no choice. Their "organizational documents" - if you will - only allow them to carry "x" in cash and the rest "must" be invested.
Carlomagno writes:
Could somebody please explain how the Dow ended up 120 points today?
This means that market participants decided that that the value of the stocks at the beginning of the session were a good buy.
When they put a bid in that a seller liked, the seller accepted the offer.
This phenomenon tells me that the sellers felt they could make a profit at the price offered by the buyer. Or that they might not get that same price in the future.
Has anyone seen some quality research questioning the "Treasuries are risk free" hypothesis? I am seriously doubting there will be quite a mess when paper holders start realizing that.
Strong evidence for a market with P/E's of 100+ September 28, 1999 By A Customer Glassman & Hassett pose a strong argument that the market is undervalued. In a nutshell, his reasoning is that, long term, stocks are no more risky than fixed return investments like bonds. Yet, because earnings tend to grow, they have higher rates of return. This suggests that stocks will rise in price until that gap is closed, which conservatively indicates a 36,000 Dow. Impressive data to back up a strong thesis!
For what it's worth, I was just offered Wachovia (WB) 5.8% hybrids at $0.10 on the dollar, and I passed. A block of 30-year Wachovia paper just traded at $0.35 on the dollar. This is not preferred stock or hybrid, folks, this is subordinated debt.
So... with the WaMu failure being partly attributed to an $18B outflow over a 10 day period... How much of that was deposits that were over the $100K limit ?
I'd expect those deposits to gallop like a horse at the first hint of trouble.
How is it, that a bunch of crooks at JPM are allowed to stay in business and then get in bed with FDIC???
Re: Sept. 4 (Bloomberg) -- JPMorgan Chase & Co. will stop selling interest-rate swaps to government borrowers in the $2.6 trillion U.S. municipal bond market roiled by an antitrust probe and the near bankruptcy of Alabama's most-populous county.
At least seven former JPMorgan bankers are under scrutiny in a Justice Department criminal investigation of whether banks conspired to overcharge local governments on swaps and other derivatives. The bank also is embroiled in negotiations over how to resolve a debt crisis with Jefferson County, Alabama, where the county's former adviser says a group of firms led by JPMorgan, the third-largest U.S. bank by assets, overcharged it by as much as $100 million for financing a new sewer system.
get back to work people! You've got a lot of debt to pay off!
newyorkdog
Work time is over. BTW, I always thought it would be a terrible life to be a dog in NYC. I bet they dream every night of living in the country with all the rabbits they can chase.
Sure, US Treasuries are not risk free (from a credit, liquidity, market risk, etc perspective) yet it is all relative. The US has guns + taxing power + lots + lots of options (at least in the short term) to ensure that they pay back their debts as agreed to. Mind you, they might be paid back in depreciated US Dollars, but they WILL be paid back. They are probably the safest assets, with respect to DEFAULT risk, on planet earth.
The delusions of grandeur about McBush being fairly elected (notice how I use the phrase fairly) will evaporate after this evening. Not that I am tooting Obama's horn, I most certainly am not, but honestly McBush doesn't stand a chance in hell in a FAIR election.
Carlo - to the extent that is a valid explanation {and, in my experience it is}, that factor tends to run through the second trading day of the following month. It's a function of when money becomes available to the fund.
We are in crazy times - and I'm not promising nuttin. But during times when the market was sane, it was a pretty reliable phenomenon.
Initially, the TED spread was the difference between the interest rate for the three month U.S. Treasuries contract and three month Eurodollars contract as represented by the London Inter Bank Offered Rate (LIBOR). However, since the Chicago Mercantile Exchange dropped the T-bill futures, the TED spread is now calculated as the difference between the three month T-bill interest rate and three month LIBOR. The TED spread is a measure of liquidity and shows the degree to which banks are willing to lend money to one another.
The TED spread can be used as an indicator of credit risk. This is because U.S. T-bills are considered risk free while the LIBOR rate reflects the credit risk of lending to commercial banks. As the TED spread increases, the risk of default (also known as counterparty risk) is considered to be increasing, and investors will have a preference for safe investments.
I just left my local bank and ask the teller if they are getting a lot of Wachovia Checks she said yes . My guess is the silent( bad news ) Wachovia bank run has started .They won't make it till next Friday .
It's hard for me to believe how simply buying virtually any RRE in markets like Boston, NYC, SF, etc. in the '70s or '80s made people 30 times ROI or more. We'll never see such broad returns in anything again! It was the biggest financial illusion of all time! Unbelievable
Work time is over. BTW, I always thought it would be a terrible life to be a dog in NYC. I bet they dream every night of living in the country with all the rabbits they can chase.
Elvis
Well, maybe. But I know a lot of dogs in New York who are just peachy keen. Not that a good romp in the country ever hurt anyone.
Besides, if you're a country dog, you have to contend with wolves, bears, and the cold winters. And what fire hydrants can you piss on?
So anyone read that piece in the WSJ about the preferred-share plan bailout? This dog likes it the best of all the other ones....
Last i checked about 950 names on short ban list including all financials, quasi financials and hell today even Zales (yes the jewellary store) applied to get on the list.
We were up 120 pts because more buyers than sellers and zero liquidity.
From everything I see and hear, outside of a few verticals (storage and federal) September definately was a slow month for a lot of tech companies. Next week's employment number, October earnings' anouncements, and the banking situation could make October a fun month. Stocks probably went up on the hope of a package being passed, but if the economy is as weak as I think it is, probably another leg down coming up soon.
From Yves Vault: THURSDAY, APRIL 17, 2008
Why the Happy Talk About the Credit Crisis?
I am frequently mystified at what goes on in the markets. I am even more mystified when people who ought to know better make pronouncements that appear to be profoundly counter-factual. Even if they are talking their own book, the high odds of being revealed as bald-faced liars proven wrong ought to make them worry about damaging their credibility.
Is this wishful thinking? Delusion? A hope that that a united front can change perceptions and therefore reality? (see this as Tinkerbell behavior: if we all clap together, the markets won't die).
"the majority of the nation is with McCain on the bailout issue."
I don;t think folks know where McCain is on the bailout issue. What I keep hearing is disbelief that he canceled the debate...two lines I hear...that he's afraid to face Obama and look stupid by camparison or that he's too old and slow to focus on two things at once.
As for Pelosi, I wish Bunning would slap some sense into her..or Shelby..or Corker...or Kyl or...
In the Treasury market I spoke with a Treasury Bond trader who described the illiquidity in his sector. He said that it reminded him of how bad the off the run bond market was following the collapse of Long Term Capital. He noted that the 2021through 2023 sector of the Treasury curve had become very cheap versus 2024 through 2025 paper. In the last couple of sessions the 2021 through 2023 paper has cheapened by about 5 basis points versus the longer dated paper. In his opinion this has resulted from deleveraging which has trading firms unloading securities which they once intended to warehouse.
mmckinl, you are right on.
And once the bailout passes--and it will, eventually--the angry constituents will be further alienated from the political process realizing that their voices don't really matter. Further consolidating the big money's control over the system.
Upthread or on another thread, someone mentioned Obama looking like a lapdog for the plutocrats. Yup. And he will be rewarded thusly. McCain will quickly distance himself from his facile flirtation with Huey Long/TRism. If he knows what's good for him.
Ambergris,
I work for the Colorado Rockies. We have issued a cease and desist order on sales of your CR T-shirt. Any further attempts to market such items for sale will result in serious legal consequences and a possible flogging.
I always thought it would be a terrible life to be a dog in NYC. I bet they dream every night of living in the country with all the rabbits they can chase.
Not true. It's dog heaven. Big dog parks on the West Side and the Mayor loves dogs...off leash before 9am and after 9pm every day in Central Park...which is bigger than the Monaco, with raccoons, squirrels and the occasional chicken which has escaped sacrifice by the Santaria crowd.
Al-Waleed Financial Group is so poorly run that I wonder if they are already quais-government owned
Someone in the comments last night referred to the NY Fed using JPM as a conduit to give Citi $138 billion, which is the amount Citi is listed for as a Lehman creditor
Once PwC finishes their work, and there is nothing left -- how will Citi be able to pay that back or worse raise capital to boost their Tier 1?
It could be the biggest bank dissolution since the original JP Morgan anti-trust
Elvis writes:
Ambergris,
I work for the Colorado Rockies. We have issued a cease and desist order on sales of your CR T-shirt. Any further attempts to market such items for sale will result in serious legal consequences and a possible flogging.
Just tried to withdraw $25K cash from a NYC retail branch of a stable bank and was told that I could have it in 20s and if I wanted 100s I would have to order it for Tuesday.
@Anonymous: "2021through 2023 sector of the Treasury curve had become very cheap versus 2024 through 2025 paper."
There is something else that might be going on here, which has nothing to do with crisis. It happens every time the Mar/Jun/Sep/Dec Tbond futures expire.
There is an arbitrage concept in the mkt called "cheapest to deliver." It's because any one of a range of maturity/coupon bonds can be delivered against the futures contracts, and the adjusted total proceeds is different for each one. (You can Google it and find out about it, or check the CBOT website).
Basically, it induces demand for a couple of issues, affects their repo rates, and changes the curve for a while. That could be all that's about.
I have not heard anyone say that they support the bailout. I have had some people ask me to quit talking about it though.
Bond Fembot | 09.26.08 - 4:46 pm | #
Henry, beaten, returns to his tower laboratory to complete the creation of the Monster's mate. In spite of himself, Henry grows excited over his work. After being reassured of Elizabeth's safety (after talking to her on an anachronistic telephone), Henry completes with Pretorius the assembly of the female's body.
As a storm rages, the final preparations are made to bring the Monster's mate to life. Her bandage-wrapped body is raised through the roof. Lightning strikes a kite, sending electricity through the female's form. Henry and Pretorius lower her and realize their success. "She's alive! Alive!" Henry cries. They remove her bandages and help her to stand. "The bride of Frankenstein!" Doctor Pretorius declares.
The excited Monster sees his mate. He reaches out to her. "Friend?" he asks. The bride, screaming, rejects him. The creature tries again and the bride again rejects him in terror. "She hate me! Like others", the Monster says dejectedly. As Elizabeth races to Henry's side, the Monster rampages through the laboratory. "Go! You live!", he tells Henry and Elizabeth. To Pretorius and the bride he says "You stay. We belong dead." Henry and Elizabeth flee. The Monster, shedding a tear as his bride hisses at him, pulls a lever causing the laboratory and tower to be destroyed.
I keep reading different comments on different days that some banks are short on hundred dollar bills----why would this be significant---I haven't seen anyone comment on this.(please forgive if already covered -i'm really curious as to why this would be significant)
I took out $10k in cash, all hundreds, yesterday at Citi at about 10:00am PST.
There were four people closing accounts. As I counted the stack after the teller the bank manager came and asked if I was interested in opening up an account........
I had to explain to her that I was CLOSING an account so why would I want to re-open one.....She followed me to the door insisting that was not the best thing to do.
Minyanville Professor Bennet Sedacca:
For what it's worth, I was just offered Wachovia (WB) 5.8% hybrids at $0.10 on the dollar, and I passed. A block of 30-year Wachovia paper just traded at $0.35 on the dollar. This is not preferred stock or hybrid, folks, this is subordinated debt.
Turbo writes:
The TED spread hasn't really reflected credit market conditions for the past 24 hours as money market conditions actually deteriorated significantly yesterday afternoon and today. Libor was set at 3.76 today, which is artificially low - implied Usd 3 month borrowing rates actually moved another 50bps higher, and Libor should really be set around 5.00 or even higher to reflect this. The interbank funding market is pretty much the reactor on the Enterprise seconds before matter and anti-matter collide, and, sadly, Barney Frank is Commander Scott.
The market seems to be marking WB and NCC for death today, which may be a little premature. They will both be capital deficient as Sep.30th, and will require significant capital injections (10 bio for WB), but neither is in danger of imminently having negative net worth, which would trigger seizure. They are certainly in serious trouble though.
So I have money in Wachovia? Very small amounts, but I have my direct deposit set to go there.
Should I be worried? Maybe I should close my account, get all the money out (even if's only s little I don't want to lose it/have no access to it for a long time) and reset my direct deposit to another bank?
Liabilities to one is an asset to another...meaning yet another hole opened up on someone's balance sheet or some insurance is going to have to be paid off.
The people will soon be re-educated. Or distracted by an external event. Big money is not going to cede any power without using any and all of the tools at their disposal.
Oh wow, this should help America, our hero is ready to debate!
Republican presidential nominee John McCain has reversed his earlier decision and decided to participate in Friday's long scheduled debate with Democrat candidate Barack Obama. McCain had said he would not attend the debate unless there was agreement on a controversial $700 billion plan to shore up the U.S. financial system, something U.S. lawmakers continue to struggling to achieve. VOA's Kent Klein reports from Washington.
Probably not, if it is under the FDIC cap. But if Citi did in fact buy WB, then you probably will want to change accounts, since C has, in the past, had very little interest in maintaining customer relations in retail banking, and certainly not anywhere like the service you get from Wachovia.
The people will soon be re-educated. Or distracted by an external event. Big money is not going to cede any power without using any and all of the tools at their disposal.
Max Schumacher
Exactly. Just when the people think they have won, they will realize that, in fact, they merely escalated what needs to be done. Power doesn't just roll over. It gets what it wants generally.
I like the new model and we could all try it at home, i.e, have two or three check books and have a good check book and a bad check book and then one that is for Level 3 shit too weird for the other two.
sdtfs writes:
Personally I think the Dems like the bailout because it's a lot of money. Pure and simple, it makes them giddy.
I don't trust either side. Jas Jan is right. But in fairness, the Dems were told by the Chief Executive experts that delivery had to be made post haste. The Dems detested the idea, but managed to deliver on time. Now it's the twist of the tale, and the scumbag Repubs who created the crisis jump out from behind Bush and claim to be heroes. It's all drama.
Wisdom lies in getting rid of one's illusions. Lord Acton
Calling things by their proper name (reflecting the characteristics) is the beginning of wisdom. Confucius.
Please remember that I wasn't born with any insights and I was a dope once and still am in some ways that I don't yet know. The only thing is that I recognize and admit to my mistakes as soon as evidence contrary to my beliefs mount. I held many of the beliefs in the Americans system that born-and-bred American dopes hold. Then my passion to understand the American system took me to where few dare to go.
James Dimon\t\tJPMorgan Chase & Co\t
Victor Menezes\t\tCitigroup Inc.\t
Norman Bobins\t\tLaSalle Bank National Association\t
Kenneth Lewis\t\tBank of America Corporation
Thomas Renyi\t\tDPM Mellon\t
Juergen Fitschen\tDeutsche Bank AG\t
Youssef Nasr\t\tHSBC Holdings plc\t
William Harrison Jr.\tMerck & Co. Inc.\t
Richard Kovacevich\tWells Fargo & Company\t
G. Thompson\t\tFederal Reserve Bank of Richmond\t
Martin Glynn\t\tMF Global Ltd\t55
Richard Davis\t\tUS Bancorp
Here's a thought...since JPM wrote down $31 billion of WAMU's loan portfolio, does that mean they won't be in that big of a rush to foreclose, since they've already recognized the losses? Or, alternatively, they could shift a bunch of WAMU employees from origination to workout?
From Forbes:
Dimon added that he supported the federal government's efforts to come up with a $700 billion fund to buy up toxic mortgage and other debts weighing on bank balance sheets, but said he wouldn't necessarily unload assets acquired in the WaMu deal on the proposed loan facility. "We're in favor of what the government is doing but we're not relying on what the government is doing," he said Thursday night. "We're not necessarily going to use it."
repost from a earlier thread that went dead right after I posted it and also repostedfrom Zacks.com:
It is clear to me that we have to do something and do something soon to resolve the mess on Wall St. The financial system is facing both a liquidity problem and a solvency problem. I would set up what would be in effect a U.S. sovereign wealth fund. This fund would then buy, at current market prices new stock in large financial institutions giving the fund a 49% stake in each institution. The shareholders of these firms would be diluted, but the institutions would then be adequately capitalized. In essence the problem is that we have to much leverage (Assets/Equity) in the system. The Paulson/Dodd proposals essentially attack the problem from the asset side of the equation. This proposal would attack it from the equity side of the equation.
The Paulson/Dodd approach would buy up troubled assets. However much would depend on what price would be paid for these assets, most of which are currently very illiquid, opaque, complex and far from homogenous. If the price paid was close to recent market prices, then banks would still have to recognize a big loss and their capital would be depleted. It would only help the banks if the price paid was well above the current market prices. The difference between market price and the government paid price (What Bernanke was referring to as the held to maturity value) would in effect be a direct subsidy to the asset seller. That would help shore up the banks capital position and also give it some cash to resume lending. As losses are recognized however, it directly hurts the banks capital (unless the asset has already been marked down to that level or lower). Both assets and equity go down, but on a percentage basis equity goes down further, which increases leverage. Also it is not at all targeted to those institutions which are the most under-capitalized; the subsidy goes to which ever institution sells the asset.
The equity approach would also provide the banks with fresh cash to lend with. However, it comes with a stiff price as the existing shareholders are diluted. However, if an institution is leveraged at 20:1 then you get 20x as much bang for your buck in bringing down leverage by attacking the 0ne than you do by attacking the 20. Also, the price of the equity is open, liquid and transparent. There is no difficulty in judging how much to pay, and when the markets recover, the taxpayer gets lots of upside. For $700 billion, at current market capitalizations, taxpayers could own 49% of most of the Financial sector.
The one commentator here who seems to have been right all along is mp/Conjure. Trying to fit the events to his commentary I get something like this:
the bailout of public-facing institutions is already well underway - started with Bear and is continuing with whoever runs out of luck this weekend
global credit markets don't freeze up because WaMoo is going under
global credit markets freeze up when (important) central banks are under stress
the bailout being discussed now is talked about in terms of banks, MBS, etc, but it's really about how to recapitalize the Fed
-by extension then, this isn't a debate about what happens to a bunch of banks, it's what happens to the US dollar and the status of the US central bank as the Big Man on Campus
Main Street may continue to think it's about Downey Financial or whatever, but foreigners who deal with the Fed have a pretty good idea of what's going on, hence the international credit issues
deal or no deal, significant damage has already been done (mp's "Wile E. Coyote moment") to perceptions of US financial stability
the people who "own" those perceptions are the same ones who fund the massive US deficits and it is highly likely investment in "full faith and credit" will require increased risk premium moving forwad
if there is no deal, there will be a very sharp shock to the US domestic economy
if there is a deal, the total shock is likely to be roughly the same, but may be stretched out over a longer period of time
either way, the American way of life has crossed a meaningful negative threshold and very strong changes are coming
I scalped a 2 1/2% profit today on a market bet I placed yesterday. I should feel good about that, but I don't. If the bailout comes through over the weekend, I erred.
Our country will become one giant flee market. Everything from Lehman's Ferrari's to Joe6Pack slightly used plasma TVs...all for the picking for shoppers from Dubai.
Kneel_before_Zod writes:
Our country will become one giant flee market. Everything from Lehman's Ferrari's to Joe6Pack slightly used plasma TVs...all for the picking for shoppers from Dubai.
Aren't we already ? Hasn't that been taking place for the past 6 months ?
The financial system is facing both a liquidity problem and a solvency problem.
Dirk, it's more than that.
There is no officially a confidence problem. Nobody trusts anyone to do the right thing, and the only proposal from the government is to send a trillion bucks to the people with demonstrated incompetence in running a business.
The confidence issue can only be addressed by proper & correct action over long periods of time. Until that occurs, the crisis will stay with us.
Cliffo: As a 36 year old dude, she looks better today than in 1984. She was pretty plain back then, but now she's like Larry Flynt's naughty librarian.
There's going to be a ton of home buyers frantically jumping in to buy homes & have the American Dream when the taxpayer 'giveaway' to the surviving banks is passed through the bowels of Congress this weekend. Hooray. The bottom has been wiped and is IN! Now the public can eat it!
Be a good debate tonight. Vote for who wants to nuke Iran the soonest...just kidding. Nuking Iran is dopey like this dopey bank heist taxpayer 'giveaway' plan...Jas is dopey too.
I said it yesterday and earlier today. Wells has been strangely quiet over the last few weeks.
That doesn't mean any of these rumors are true. Look what we had right before LEH... KDB, CIT, WB AND MS were all touted as "potentially interested" in acquiring LEH.....all of those rumors were floated in TWO hours time on the friday before it was allowed to fail.
We've had virtually the same pattern this evening with WB and with BSC in mid-march.
The mantra is to make sure the FDIC does not have to get involved and deplete it's already dwindling insurance fund. The only way to do that is find a party that can bring something (not much in the case of JPM) to the table which will allow the deposit base to remain untouched (at least in that portion of the deal) but wipe out the common, preferred and bondholder's.
Those 3 are the equal to the depositor base having to be insured at this point. OTS holds an "auction" and whoever is interested is allowed to cherry pick assets while leaving the bad ones in the holding company.
1) Look at the books for 2-3 days while "mark's" stock is sliding.
2) Step aside and make no offer. Leak to WSJ about how bad things are.
3) Call Sheila and offer her 1.5% on deposits.
4) Sheila will make (on your behalf) Thursday/Friday night special offer they can not refuse. "Moral hazard" lesson to shareholders and bondholders (while they are bent over).
Fat cats don't appreciate what sort of impact their actions have on a regular fellow who spent a few years socking away a few bucks in 401/bank account.
Treasury/FDIC honchos and big bankers - You will not see much this cash in the coming years. Many paychecks will go straight to cash, under the mattress and not to the bank. Anyone who thinks bonds or additional share issuance for remaining banks is an option going forward is kidding themselves.
The big boys already decided who lives and who dies and the rest is just a charade.
just sayin'
It 'peers that nothing gives a dog as much pleasure as smelling another dogs butt. Ain't that many dog butts in the country so they have to settle for chasin' rabbits and stuff.
You country guys take tour mutts into town to a dog run and they will go wild with that anal aroma paradise. Then see if they want to go back to the country.
If you look at the actions of our government and banking over the last years nothing makes sense (especially Palin as VP). The only possible scenario is that someone wants to completely destroy confidence in the United States.
Greg Weston, thanks for your coverage on FED and DSL, as I have followed them for a while and you have been spot on. I didn't follow BKUNA as closely, as the FED/DSL coupling was sooooo easy to trade while staying short at least one of them.
Made a quick killing on some FED puts today, then out.
Not first...
700B is not good enough, more will be required.
The FED and Treasury should put up 5T and use it judiciously over time as to not cause more damage than needed. That sum should be substantial enough.
For the Taxpayers to really come out on tops, the agreement should be punitive to the institutions and structured on terms like what Buffett got on Goldman and similar to the AIG bailout.
That is the the best and only way forward that would benefit the Taxpayers.
Any other way and you will have a consolidation of banks like in the likes of GS, JPM, BoA, MS etc.
And to make matters worse if these newly consolidated banks get into more trouble down the road, the Treasury and FED will have to, you guessed it , bail them out again for they are too big to fail.
As it is the consolidation continues and the banks, once again are morphed and evolved into .... another bank.
Truly some institutions cannot be allowed to fail.
Till the next time.
I have no info, but I'll guess Downey and Vineyard in the Bank Failure Friday pool.
Best to all.
Could somebody please explain how the Dow ended up 120 points today?
carlo...it's positioning in anticipation of a passage of the giant bucket of spit this weekend.
Carlomagno writes:
Could somebody please explain how the Dow ended up 120 points today?
In anticipation of the bill that will pass, and it should move up more after that too.
Err... a lot of arguing going on about that bucket of spit...
Could somebody please explain how the Dow ended up 120 points today?
the dow will have its comeuppance. Book it down hard.
The Dow always goes up PAY ATTENTION.
I think the conversation is something like this:
"Hello, Citigroup? This is Wachovia."
"Wachovia? If you ever call me again I'll get a restraining order slapped on your ass."
Could somebody please explain how the Dow ended up 120 points today?
Beats me. I'm hearing that there is political benefit to scuttling the deal at the moment. I can't see if they have the votes to do it...
Could somebody please explain how the Dow ended up 120 points today?
"Buy on rumor, sell on news."
"merger." is that what the wamu treatment is called these days?
Has nothing whatsoever to do with the bill.
We're still rebounding from the major lows.
IBD-types all jumping in following yesterdays "follow-through day".
And end-of-quarter tape-painting, especially by semi-solvent banks. (WFC up 9% - WTF?)
Calculated Risk writes:
I have no info, but I'll guess Downey and Vineyard in the Bank Failure Friday pool.
Best to all.
Calculated Risk | Homepage | 09.26.08 - 4:34 pm | #
After WaMooo - in one week... it would be like the 80s all over again.
I'm now the bid for C puts for next year LOL.
Will you guys please quit calling the congressional switchboard, I am trying to get a hold of someone to ask for my ponie. The lines are crazy busy.
on another note, out of nowhere the cashier at home depot starts compalining about the bailout. The sheeple are waking up.
The bailout is the butt of jokes all over here.
The House Republicans are serious about not passing the bailout. Therefore, I do not foresee a bailout.
But what I don't understand is why the markets are so excited over a plan which has been so universally derided. The only people who seem to like it are Paulson and the Democrats. The public hates it, economists and analysts are saying it won't work. And it's only going to pile a ton of debt on top of the mountain on which we're currently sitting.
By the way what's up with Citi being involved in WAMU talks and now WB talks? I thought they were hurting and facing much more confessional time as well as dilutive capital raises...
Carlo:
Maybe . . . just maybe . . . the stock market is rigged.
Nah, forget it.
There's no way the Treasury is secretly bankrolling GS to prop up the market on days like today.
No way!
"Wachovia has begun preliminary talks with Citigroup"
Conjure says, "A textbook example of the blind leading the blind."
Pelosi statement...
Whew. Managed to yank half of my 401k into cash today. Other end of the line tried a bit to discourage me from doing it.
Of course, when I say "cash" I use the term loosely. It's a MMF-like "Stable Value Fund". But it was the most cash-like thing I could get.
16rh
I Am Not My Bankers Keeper writes:
Will you guys please quit calling the congressional switchboard, I am trying to get a hold of someone to ask for my ponie. The lines are crazy busy.
I already got my request in this morning. The lady was not amused when I explained how it works. I told her I was dead serious.
I say we all call and ask for a pony. Maybe they'll get the message.
I take back my Quote of the day....it's not really a quote but it's in the article referenced for this thread.
"Citi would also gain Wachovias retail banking management team, considered one of the strongest in the business."
Utter rubbish....
BTW doesn't Nancy and Barney make a cute couple. Mrs. Sunshine and Mr. Doom
Ciao
MS
Re: "Could somebody please explain how the Dow ended up 120 points today?"
PPT was given an advance
Pelosi: great progress made, much change has been made to proposal
I bet the folks at BofA's HQ are smiling...
I'll take a Ferrari instead of a pony since they seem to be so readily available.
F Pelosi! They are handing the election to McCain. Damn it!
Pelosi: I need reverse liposuctio
seem to me the independent voters are porlly against bailing out the pinstripes...and as they both want he independents, I would assume that neither party wants to be seen as the champion of this thing...not that it won't happen but it won't happen by magic.
Vineyard was only off 20%.
Vineyard wins!
Federal Reserve H.8 report, just out at 4:15 EDT, shows U.S. total commercial bank credit up $130B last week; up 8% year-on-year. Had not risen significantly from February/March through Sept 3/10.
http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h8/Current/
Here's one version of the plan that I think might actually be workable. Call it the Warren Buffett put.
The Public Deserves a Better Deal - WSJ.com
I think NCC will be in the friday FDIC failure pool. Who else will join is up for debate.
I'm starting to think the phrase "people briefed on the matter said" is going to go down in 2008's hall of infamy. It's not even hearsay, it could be any level of indirection between the principals and the briefers.
Anon writes:
F Pelosi! They are handing the election to McCain. Damn it!
Anon | 09.26.08 - 4:42 pm | #
Dems are better as opposition party anyway - easier to stop bad legislation than author good legislation... as GOP is currently discovering.
"handing the election to McCain"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH
Funniest thing I've read all day.
Ciao
MS
Will you guys please quit calling the congressional switchboard, I am trying to get a hold of someone to ask for my ponie. The lines are crazy busy.
on another note, out of nowhere the cashier at home depot starts compalining about the bailout. The sheeple are waking up.
I Am Not My Bankers Keeper
I agree, I have been trading emails with a few people today about it. Informed or not, these are people who I was mentioning it to last weekend with the return of blank stares. The longer this lingers the more j6p gets news of it and probably doesn't like it.
Reluctant Serf Ken writes:
I'm starting to think the phrase "people briefed on the matter said" is going to go down in 2008's hall of infamy. It's not even hearsay, it could be any level of indirection between the principals and the briefers.
Reluctant Serf Ken | Homepage | 09.26.08 - 4:43 pm | #
I'd like to see the 'data' - sho' me.
You won't be laughing when Sarah Palin is President.
The 'Joe 6 Packs' in Charlotte are starting to get the idea that something is very, very wrong...
Fat Barney: Paulson agrees to equity take
FDIC: FDIC: Enforcement Decisions and Orders
FDIC Enforcement Decisions and Orders
The FDIC Enforcement Decisions and Orders (ED&O) contains the full text of the formal enforcement actions against financial institutions that are regulated by the FDIC or against their affiliated parties. The ED&O is updated on a monthly basis.
I have not heard anyone say that they support the bailout. I have had some people ask me to quit talking about it though.
Does intrade have a line on Sarah Palin becoming President within the next 8 years?
I say we all call and ask for a pony. Maybe they'll get the message.
Comrade Baron Von Helmut III
ROTFLOL!!!!
What the heck its friday and I'm bored. I think I'll call too! ! ! !
This bailout is for our own good! We're too stupid to realize it...we need to trust Bush and Hank and Nancy and Barney...
/Sarcasm
What the heck its friday and I'm bored. I think I'll call too! ! ! !
Resist the urge. Stay focused, because it's having an effect.
BFF. NCC, Downey, Affinity, Zions.
Which probably depends on which actually gets a buyer. The worst thing the FDIC wants at this point is a closure with a buyer to be named later.
Thank God for the SEC. Without their constant vigilance the possibility of trading these stocks on inside information would be tremendous.
I have had some people ask me to quit talking about it though.
Bond Fembot
I think it is common for men to ask women to stop talking. The talking can get in the way.
Nancy Pelosi is going to learn an interesting lesson in politics, I think. Like do not go along with whatever the most unpopular president in history says.
Carlomagno writes:
Could somebody please explain how the Dow ended up 120 points today?
Carl - - end of every month, funds buy. At least that's one factor.
Could Citi and or JPM delay reporting if they suck up these other banks?
And yet, amazingly, SKF (Ultra Short Financials) was down 5% !!!!!
Go figure!
Now that's just plain mean, Elvis.
Me and Palin need to have some alone time.
@ Get Shawdy
You think all of those banks are closed by the FDIC(k) today? List looks a little long to me. Even if all those closures were prudent it might start a run.
Popeye: thx, why?
Where's the center of gravity in these negotiations?
IF McCain plays this right (and he may have stumbled a bit already on the debate) I think he can decimate Obama. I mean the whole "mccain = 3rd bush term" stuff is now exposed for the stupid mantra it was. Plus, the majority of the nation is with McCain on the bailout issue. (unless we have a huge crash and things change...)
I'm awesome.
Just wanted everyone to know that.
This bailout is getting done so screw you guys. No equity for the taxpayers - that will dilute me and it aint going to happen. I wont allow it and I'm the richest guy in the world. I call the president right now he'll stop everything he is doing to talk to me. Same with Paulson and Bernanke, and anyone in the media.
No one says anything bad about me because I am awesome and could bury anyone.
I am a God and I can get away with whatever I want.
I'll get that $40B put I sold last year back in the money soon. You'll see.
Also, my investment portfolio is going to come back strong.
I can move markets. You cant.
I'm awesome and well connected. dont bet against me or Goldman Sachs or you'll be sorry.
This is silly Wachovia can't afford to buy Citigroup.
Nancy just said this is not just about the stock market. It's about everyone continuing to get what they want.
This place has degenerated into a chat room. get back to work people! You've got a lot of debt to pay off!
I keep thinking about BB's testimony several months ago and his theory of containment and then I think about Hanky Panky's grand dreams of the SIV and wonder how anyone can believe anything any more...
Add a touch of push and I'm going with the Tao of Pooh. Just do the opposite of what got you the wrong answer the first time.
Example. I lost my glasses, so I look for my glasses but I still dont find them. But when I dont look for my glasses I find them...
Just a slow friday thought...
Cheers!
......
Could somebody please explain how the Dow ended up 120 points today?
Probably people don't want to get caught in a 1000 point weekend bailout short squeeze.
Carlo Basically, they have no choice. Their "organizational documents" - if you will - only allow them to carry "x" in cash and the rest "must" be invested.
Oh lookie,
it's the 'Hag& Fag" show.
Carlomagno writes:
Could somebody please explain how the Dow ended up 120 points today?
This means that market participants decided that that the value of the stocks at the beginning of the session were a good buy.
When they put a bid in that a seller liked, the seller accepted the offer.
This phenomenon tells me that the sellers felt they could make a profit at the price offered by the buyer. Or that they might not get that same price in the future.
It's very complicated.
Has anyone seen some quality research questioning the "Treasuries are risk free" hypothesis? I am seriously doubting there will be quite a mess when paper holders start realizing that.
What is this debt you are talking about? I have none ... i also don't have a pony! I want I want I want!
Give me Barney's number
Popeye: thx again.
An Amazon.com customer review of DOW 36,000:
Those who do not learn etc.
Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis: Credit Market Is Closed
For what it's worth, I was just offered Wachovia (WB) 5.8% hybrids at $0.10 on the dollar, and I passed. A block of 30-year Wachovia paper just traded at $0.35 on the dollar. This is not preferred stock or hybrid, folks, this is subordinated debt.
Wow
Nancy Pelosi is going to learn an interesting lesson in politics, I think.
Pelosi has already learned the one true lesson of politics: monied interests are your real constituents, not the voters.
So... with the WaMu failure being partly attributed to an $18B outflow over a 10 day period... How much of that was deposits that were over the $100K limit ?
I'd expect those deposits to gallop like a horse at the first hint of trouble.
I immodestly think my article on Downey, FirstFed, and BankUnited is the best recent coverage of them from an equity investor standpoint.
The Option Arm Triplets: Dead Banks Walking -- Seeking Alpha
Hey fembot bond girl do you shoot bullets out of your, ehm, you know, guns? LOL
Barney Fudd sez:
It's a partisan football... nobody wants to pass it.
How is it, that a bunch of crooks at JPM are allowed to stay in business and then get in bed with FDIC???
Re: Sept. 4 (Bloomberg) -- JPMorgan Chase & Co. will stop selling interest-rate swaps to government borrowers in the $2.6 trillion U.S. municipal bond market roiled by an antitrust probe and the near bankruptcy of Alabama's most-populous county.
At least seven former JPMorgan bankers are under scrutiny in a Justice Department criminal investigation of whether banks conspired to overcharge local governments on swaps and other derivatives. The bank also is embroiled in negotiations over how to resolve a debt crisis with Jefferson County, Alabama, where the county's former adviser says a group of firms led by JPMorgan, the third-largest U.S. bank by assets, overcharged it by as much as $100 million for financing a new sewer system.
get back to work people! You've got a lot of debt to pay off!
newyorkdog
Work time is over. BTW, I always thought it would be a terrible life to be a dog in NYC. I bet they dream every night of living in the country with all the rabbits they can chase.
This is silly Wachovia can't afford to buy Citigroup.
Lol I think the idea is Citi buying Wachovia... ah no wait... lol...wait a second...
anon @ 4:51, grow the hell up.
This is silly Wachovia can't afford to buy Citigroup.
Kneel_before_Zod
LOL! Tough times make us funny....
.................
JP - I will resist... deal!
.....
Pelosi has already learned the one true lesson of politics: monied interests are your real constituents, not the voters.
Armani suits do not buy themselves.
Bond Fembot writes:
Nancy just said this is not just about the stock market. It's about everyone continuing to get what they want.
And we know what everyone wants, cheap credit and continued support from Wall St. See, everyone wins.
I think I hate Pelosi more than Bush, every time I see her face I want to put needles in my eyes. By the way, I don't support either party.
I'm sorry. Really. I can't stop laughing every time Frank talks. he reminds me of Elmer Fudd.
Somebody up-thread mentioned the insanity of Wells Fargo being up 10%, and essentially at the all-time high for the stock.
I guess the logic is that all the other banks are going under, so last bank standing does a tremendous business!
Nevermind about all those bad loans, and the recession we're entering!
Buy the bailout, indeed!
Can I pledge my armani suit as a collateral for those treasuries?
I want to see Grameen bank step in and acquire someone. They have the cash on hand
OK, back to work.
Sure, US Treasuries are not risk free (from a credit, liquidity, market risk, etc perspective) yet it is all relative. The US has guns + taxing power + lots + lots of options (at least in the short term) to ensure that they pay back their debts as agreed to. Mind you, they might be paid back in depreciated US Dollars, but they WILL be paid back. They are probably the safest assets, with respect to DEFAULT risk, on planet earth.
Has Citi been able to right their balance sheet in the past few months? There's been no major headline news about them lately...
Why would a suspect bank talk/merge with another more suspect bank?
I have not heard anyone say that they support the bailout. I have had some people ask me to quit talking about it though.
I've actually been avoiding talking about it with real life acquaintances. I try to avoid the TV news broadcasts.
It's like everybody is suddenly living in my private fantasy world that I've been ranting about for years.
It's a strange sickening feeling when everybody in your personal life is saying the same things Jas does.
The delusions of grandeur about McBush being fairly elected (notice how I use the phrase fairly) will evaporate after this evening. Not that I am tooting Obama's horn, I most certainly am not, but honestly McBush doesn't stand a chance in hell in a FAIR election.
Ciao
MS
barney f-
"now that mccain has left the city we can get back to serious work"
only funny line.
wretched press conference, total tools. republican's are rolling over them as per usual.
Carlo - to the extent that is a valid explanation {and, in my experience it is}, that factor tends to run through the second trading day of the following month. It's a function of when money becomes available to the fund.
We are in crazy times - and I'm not promising nuttin. But during times when the market was sane, it was a pretty reliable phenomenon.
It's a strange sickening feeling when everybody in your personal life is saying the same things Jas does.
ac
That must be especially creepy in the bedroom.
WTF does this imply??
Initially, the TED spread was the difference between the interest rate for the three month U.S. Treasuries contract and three month Eurodollars contract as represented by the London Inter Bank Offered Rate (LIBOR). However, since the Chicago Mercantile Exchange dropped the T-bill futures, the TED spread is now calculated as the difference between the three month T-bill interest rate and three month LIBOR. The TED spread is a measure of liquidity and shows the degree to which banks are willing to lend money to one another.
The TED spread can be used as an indicator of credit risk. This is because U.S. T-bills are considered risk free while the LIBOR rate reflects the credit risk of lending to commercial banks. As the TED spread increases, the risk of default (also known as counterparty risk) is considered to be increasing, and investors will have a preference for safe investments.
Why would a suspect bank talk/merge with another more suspect bank?
Um, because there is no one else left?
I just left my local bank and ask the teller if they are getting a lot of Wachovia Checks she said yes . My guess is the silent( bad news ) Wachovia bank run has started .They won't make it till next Friday .
It's hard for me to believe how simply buying virtually any RRE in markets like Boston, NYC, SF, etc. in the '70s or '80s made people 30 times ROI or more. We'll never see such broad returns in anything again! It was the biggest financial illusion of all time! Unbelievable
Work time is over. BTW, I always thought it would be a terrible life to be a dog in NYC. I bet they dream every night of living in the country with all the rabbits they can chase.
Elvis
Well, maybe. But I know a lot of dogs in New York who are just peachy keen. Not that a good romp in the country ever hurt anyone.
Besides, if you're a country dog, you have to contend with wolves, bears, and the cold winters. And what fire hydrants can you piss on?
So anyone read that piece in the WSJ about the preferred-share plan bailout? This dog likes it the best of all the other ones....
@ ac
"1000 point short squeeze on Monday".
Last i checked about 950 names on short ban list including all financials, quasi financials and hell today even Zales (yes the jewellary store) applied to get on the list.
We were up 120 pts because more buyers than sellers and zero liquidity.
It's 4.01 p.m. on Friday. Do you know where your lobbyists are? (If you don't , you're screwed)
Barney Fudd sez:
That kwazy McCain is dwiving me nutz.
From everything I see and hear, outside of a few verticals (storage and federal) September definately was a slow month for a lot of tech companies. Next week's employment number, October earnings' anouncements, and the banking situation could make October a fun month. Stocks probably went up on the hope of a package being passed, but if the economy is as weak as I think it is, probably another leg down coming up soon.
The banksters are in charge folks ...
and you will pay for their greed whether you like it or not because they can give the pols tens of millions in contributions and you can't ...
the banksters will get their way ...
"Besides, if you're a country dog, you have to contend with wolves, bears, and the cold winters."
Not here in Tahiti.
Pelosi: "Armani Clad Witch With A Wart"
Next week's employment number, October earnings' anouncements, and the banking situation could make October a fun month.
How would you characterize September? Fair to middlin?
anon writes:
Could somebody please explain how the Dow ended up 120 points today?
The Comrades at the People's PPT were hard at work.
Rejoice and praise the fine work of Comrades Paulson and Bernake on behalf of the proletariats of the Republik.
From Yves Vault: THURSDAY, APRIL 17, 2008
Why the Happy Talk About the Credit Crisis?
I am frequently mystified at what goes on in the markets. I am even more mystified when people who ought to know better make pronouncements that appear to be profoundly counter-factual. Even if they are talking their own book, the high odds of being revealed as bald-faced liars proven wrong ought to make them worry about damaging their credibility.
Why the Happy Talk About the Credit Crisis? « naked capitalism
Worth a look back IMHO!!
Is this wishful thinking? Delusion? A hope that that a united front can change perceptions and therefore reality? (see this as Tinkerbell behavior: if we all clap together, the markets won't die).
"the majority of the nation is with McCain on the bailout issue."
I don;t think folks know where McCain is on the bailout issue. What I keep hearing is disbelief that he canceled the debate...two lines I hear...that he's afraid to face Obama and look stupid by camparison or that he's too old and slow to focus on two things at once.
As for Pelosi, I wish Bunning would slap some sense into her..or Shelby..or Corker...or Kyl or...
CR T-Shirts!
CustomInk.com design: crshirt created by plaurelli
Citchovia - pick a payment.
I know WaMu was a big event, but wasn't it clear there would be no answer on the bail out today ?
ice, Amber
New name for merged entity:
Wachigroup?
Fundamental rupture and the imploding dollar:
Could U.S. lose its status as the world's financial superpower? - BloggingStocks
yes barney and nancy are dancing to the banksters tune ...
you thought they weren't ....
this will probably be known as the weekend of infamy ...
In the Treasury market I spoke with a Treasury Bond trader who described the illiquidity in his sector. He said that it reminded him of how bad the off the run bond market was following the collapse of Long Term Capital. He noted that the 2021through 2023 sector of the Treasury curve had become very cheap versus 2024 through 2025 paper. In the last couple of sessions the 2021 through 2023 paper has cheapened by about 5 basis points versus the longer dated paper. In his opinion this has resulted from deleveraging which has trading firms unloading securities which they once intended to warehouse.
[hat tip]
Um, the debate is ON, right?
Hello, Shitiwach?
Re: yes barney and nancy are dancing to the banksters tune .
Oh come on, these are vampires, they suck each others blood like bats!
mmckinl, you are right on.
And once the bailout passes--and it will, eventually--the angry constituents will be further alienated from the political process realizing that their voices don't really matter. Further consolidating the big money's control over the system.
Upthread or on another thread, someone mentioned Obama looking like a lapdog for the plutocrats. Yup. And he will be rewarded thusly. McCain will quickly distance himself from his facile flirtation with Huey Long/TRism. If he knows what's good for him.
It's a strange sickening feeling when everybody in your personal life is saying the same things Jas does.
ac
That must be especially creepy in the bedroom.
The "born and bred dope" line is the ultimate buzzkill.
Ambergris,
I work for the Colorado Rockies. We have issued a cease and desist order on sales of your CR T-shirt. Any further attempts to market such items for sale will result in serious legal consequences and a possible flogging.
I always thought it would be a terrible life to be a dog in NYC. I bet they dream every night of living in the country with all the rabbits they can chase.
Not true. It's dog heaven. Big dog parks on the West Side and the Mayor loves dogs...off leash before 9am and after 9pm every day in Central Park...which is bigger than the Monaco, with raccoons, squirrels and the occasional chicken which has escaped sacrifice by the Santaria crowd.
Re: That must be especially creepy in the bedroom.
Is Jas going from house to house now....grrrr!
Watching BBC 10pm news here in the UK and they showed a few protestors outside the Treasury - way to go!
Max Schumacher
take your choice
Barack O'Bilderberg
or
John "Mussolini" McCai
Has everyone seen these game-theoretic analyses of why the bailout will fail (hat-tip Abnormal Returns)?
404 Error - File not found!
[ The Financial Ninja ]: Game Theory: Why the Bailout Won't Work
Nards --
Hello, Shitiwach?
I think I'd go with "Washittia".
Let's sell Alaska back to Russia for $5T and get it over with.
"CR finally changed his recession forecast from moderate to severe... and I got was this lousy t-shirt"
"with raccoons, squirrels and the occasional chicken which has escaped sacrifice by the Santaria crowd."
With my German Shepherd, the chickens' freedom would be very short-lived.
Sorry for OT, or if this has been covered...
What was that big spiky thing gold was doing in the early part of the day?
EDIT: all I got...
Al-Waleed Financial Group is so poorly run that I wonder if they are already quais-government owned
Someone in the comments last night referred to the NY Fed using JPM as a conduit to give Citi $138 billion, which is the amount Citi is listed for as a Lehman creditor
Once PwC finishes their work, and there is nothing left -- how will Citi be able to pay that back or worse raise capital to boost their Tier 1?
It could be the biggest bank dissolution since the original JP Morgan anti-trust
ac writes:
It's a strange sickening feeling when everybody in your personal life is saying the same things Jas does.
That must be especially creepy in the bedroom.
The "born and bred dope" line is the ultimate buzzkill.
I don't know. There's a certain pride in always hearing; "this thing is so much bigger than I ever imagined!"
"Truly some institutions cannot be allowed to fail."
Into infinity? You're referring to supernatural institutions?
Quit harassing bond girl... Let's be civil.
Is this the Mother Of All Bank Failure Fridays
Elvis writes:
Ambergris,
I work for the Colorado Rockies. We have issued a cease and desist order on sales of your CR T-shirt. Any further attempts to market such items for sale will result in serious legal consequences and a possible flogging.
Hmm...so...do...i...
Wachovia merging with Citigroup? That's like adding horse manure to dog crap to make it smell better.
All right, all right, you think you have a better metaphor? Prove it!
or how about a picture of Hank with an arrow...
"I'm with Stupid."
Just tried to withdraw $25K cash from a NYC retail branch of a stable bank and was told that I could have it in 20s and if I wanted 100s I would have to order it for Tuesday.
Anything fishy here?
OK... Just announce the failure! I gotta start my weekend. lol
All right, all right, you think you have a better metaphor?
"That's like Sean Penn marrying Madonna."
The reason for the rush on all this stuff is driven by XMAS and credit card offers.
Comrade Bagholders,
Shiti looks like a shambling drunk, barely able to stand, and they're gonna swallow Wachovia.
Sure.
I got a Bridge in Brooklyn I'll let go cheap, if you believe that one.
Nostrovia,
Comrade Misean
Can I finance that bridge???
"I don't know. There's a certain pride in always hearing; "this thing is so much bigger than I ever imagined!"
bagaflojj
The rush for this deal is that the banksters need liquidity ...
Was it yves that posted a piece about the liquidity crunch year end ?
@Anonymous: "2021through 2023 sector of the Treasury curve had become very cheap versus 2024 through 2025 paper."
There is something else that might be going on here, which has nothing to do with crisis. It happens every time the Mar/Jun/Sep/Dec Tbond futures expire.
There is an arbitrage concept in the mkt called "cheapest to deliver." It's because any one of a range of maturity/coupon bonds can be delivered against the futures contracts, and the adjusted total proceeds is different for each one. (You can Google it and find out about it, or check the CBOT website).
Basically, it induces demand for a couple of issues, affects their repo rates, and changes the curve for a while. That could be all that's about.
I have not heard anyone say that they support the bailout. I have had some people ask me to quit talking about it though.
Bond Fembot | 09.26.08 - 4:46 pm | #
bender: You're not a femputer, you're a fembot!!
Henry, beaten, returns to his tower laboratory to complete the creation of the Monster's mate. In spite of himself, Henry grows excited over his work. After being reassured of Elizabeth's safety (after talking to her on an anachronistic telephone), Henry completes with Pretorius the assembly of the female's body.
As a storm rages, the final preparations are made to bring the Monster's mate to life. Her bandage-wrapped body is raised through the roof. Lightning strikes a kite, sending electricity through the female's form. Henry and Pretorius lower her and realize their success. "She's alive! Alive!" Henry cries. They remove her bandages and help her to stand. "The bride of Frankenstein!" Doctor Pretorius declares.
The excited Monster sees his mate. He reaches out to her. "Friend?" he asks. The bride, screaming, rejects him. The creature tries again and the bride again rejects him in terror. "She hate me! Like others", the Monster says dejectedly. As Elizabeth races to Henry's side, the Monster rampages through the laboratory. "Go! You live!", he tells Henry and Elizabeth. To Pretorius and the bride he says "You stay. We belong dead." Henry and Elizabeth flee. The Monster, shedding a tear as his bride hisses at him, pulls a lever causing the laboratory and tower to be destroyed.
YouTube - Bride of Frankenstein (1935)
How many false starts was there with Lehman and their dalliances?
Wamu?
I don't know. There's a certain pride in always hearing; "this thing is so much bigger than I ever imagined!"
Not if it is said when you are only taking off your shirt.
mmckinl writes:
The rush for this deal is that the banksters need liquidity ...
You're mistaking liquidity with insolvency reducing available
Wells Fargo is talking to Wachovia now (CNBC)
I keep reading different comments on different days that some banks are short on hundred dollar bills----why would this be significant---I haven't seen anyone comment on this.(please forgive if already covered -i'm really curious as to why this would be significant)
Moody's just downgraded Wamu to junk status...
Wells Fargo is talking to Wachovia now (CNBC)
This is like an online dating site...
Wells Fargo is talking to Wachovia now (CNBC)
EvilHenryPaulson
I think the conversation is something like this:
"Hello, Wells Fargo? This is Wachovia."
"Wachovia? If you ever call me again I'll get a restraining order slapped on your ass."
Comrade Bagholders,
"All right, all right, you think you have a better metaphor?"
Citi and WB, that's like slamming the Titanic into a second iceberg to drain the water from the first hole.
Nostrovia,
godhatesfangs - when more than 5G is withdrawn at any one time. Banks tender in $100 bills and won't make change.
Re: this thing is so much bigger than I ever imagined!
YouTube - young frankenstein part 3
Wachovia merging with Citigroup? That's like adding horse manure to dog crap to make it smell better.
All right, all right, you think you have a better metaphor? Prove it!
I told you already: it's like ramming the Titanic into the Lusitania to keep it from sinking.
on another note, out of nowhere the cashier at home depot starts compalining about the bailout. The sheeple are waking up.
I Am Not My Bankers Keeper
Probably a college student whose news source is Stewart and Colbert;)
thanks popeye --so if they dont give out 100s possible liquidity problem or the brinks truck is late
I took out $10k in cash, all hundreds, yesterday at Citi at about 10:00am PST.
There were four people closing accounts. As I counted the stack after the teller the bank manager came and asked if I was interested in opening up an account........
I had to explain to her that I was CLOSING an account so why would I want to re-open one.....She followed me to the door insisting that was not the best thing to do.
It was hilarious...
Ciao
MS
Wells Fargo is talking to Wachovia now (CNBC)
This is like an online dating site...
....For those with highly contagious communicable diseases.
EvilHenryPaulson
No , there is always a year end squeeze on liquidity , this time it's ugly ... even for solvent banks ...
Minyanville Professor Bennet Sedacca:
For what it's worth, I was just offered Wachovia (WB) 5.8% hybrids at $0.10 on the dollar, and I passed. A block of 30-year Wachovia paper just traded at $0.35 on the dollar. This is not preferred stock or hybrid, folks, this is subordinated debt.
The reaction to the Hanky-Panky-Superfund is now reaching mob status
FARK.com: (3901515) "What we need are a few exemplary hangings. Public hangings. On television. Pick a few failed investment firms, lead their CEOs in chains through the canyons of Manhattan and give the mob satisfaction"
The people want blood. Public calls for hangings and defenestrations are being listened to in a new light
repost from last thread:
Turbo writes:
The TED spread hasn't really reflected credit market conditions for the past 24 hours as money market conditions actually deteriorated significantly yesterday afternoon and today. Libor was set at 3.76 today, which is artificially low - implied Usd 3 month borrowing rates actually moved another 50bps higher, and Libor should really be set around 5.00 or even higher to reflect this. The interbank funding market is pretty much the reactor on the Enterprise seconds before matter and anti-matter collide, and, sadly, Barney Frank is Commander Scott.
The market seems to be marking WB and NCC for death today, which may be a little premature. They will both be capital deficient as Sep.30th, and will require significant capital injections (10 bio for WB), but neither is in danger of imminently having negative net worth, which would trigger seizure. They are certainly in serious trouble though.
LOL LOL LOL @ ac | 09.26.08 - 4:56 pm | #
Just withdrew funds from Wachovia. A lot of people were doing the same.
aleister perdurabo
yep, the new template is that bonds get thrown under the bus along with preferred and regular stock ...
The Clearing House LLC banksters got the Cat 13 out and are leveling the field ...
And WFC up 10%!
The Hindenburg blimp making an emergency landing at Krakatau?
re: citi + any other walking dead corpse
The sheeple have a LONG learning curve.
It just DOES NOT make sense to buy a company before receivership when you can buy it after receivership.
WaMu to Have `Significant' Effect on CDOs, S&P Says
Should I just take my losses on SKF and run or should I hang in there? Ugh. I want Chris Cox' head on a platter.
(CNBC again) -- Wachovia talking about the good bank/bad bank model and hope people are willing to buy the bad bank on hopes of a bail out
i like this article
Lessons From 124 Banking Blow-Ups - DealBook Blog - NYTimes.com
you mean really - we should just let the dead banks die? no how could we?
and really - our recapitalization investment won't turn a profit? but buffett said it would...
So I have money in Wachovia? Very small amounts, but I have my direct deposit set to go there.
Should I be worried? Maybe I should close my account, get all the money out (even if's only s little I don't want to lose it/have no access to it for a long time) and reset my direct deposit to another bank?
Liabilities to one is an asset to another...meaning yet another hole opened up on someone's balance sheet or some insurance is going to have to be paid off.
Personally I think the Dems like the bailout because it's a lot of money. Pure and simple, it makes them giddy.
And they like it because they think it gives them a stick to beat Wall Street with.
And they think they're gonna sneak a lot of other spending in there, too.
The Defenestration of Hope...
The people want blood.
The people will soon be re-educated. Or distracted by an external event. Big money is not going to cede any power without using any and all of the tools at their disposal.
you should have your direct deposit changed into direct deponies...
IMMEDIATELY
Worried in PA thats what i did. Despite the fact my money was insured, i didnt want to take the chance of going through with all that crap.
Oh wow, this should help America, our hero is ready to debate!
Republican presidential nominee John McCain has reversed his earlier decision and decided to participate in Friday's long scheduled debate with Democrat candidate Barack Obama. McCain had said he would not attend the debate unless there was agreement on a controversial $700 billion plan to shore up the U.S. financial system, something U.S. lawmakers continue to struggling to achieve. VOA's Kent Klein reports from Washington.
If McCain was trying to avoid a debate, his actions over the last few days may have insured that this will be the most watched debate ever.
Anyone want to give me odds that McCain tells Obama (or Lehrer) to go f&*& himself?
One part of me thinks that this is some grand plan by McCain to "set Obama up on a tee".
The other, more logical side, looks at all the missteps by his campaign and thinks Obama is going to mop the floor with Grandpa
"Should I be worried?"
Probably not, if it is under the FDIC cap. But if Citi did in fact buy WB, then you probably will want to change accounts, since C has, in the past, had very little interest in maintaining customer relations in retail banking, and certainly not anywhere like the service you get from Wachovia.
The people will soon be re-educated. Or distracted by an external event. Big money is not going to cede any power without using any and all of the tools at their disposal.
Max Schumacher
Exactly. Just when the people think they have won, they will realize that, in fact, they merely escalated what needs to be done. Power doesn't just roll over. It gets what it wants generally.
I like the new model and we could all try it at home, i.e, have two or three check books and have a good check book and a bad check book and then one that is for Level 3 shit too weird for the other two.
sdtfs writes:
Personally I think the Dems like the bailout because it's a lot of money. Pure and simple, it makes them giddy.
I don't trust either side. Jas Jan is right. But in fairness, the Dems were told by the Chief Executive experts that delivery had to be made post haste. The Dems detested the idea, but managed to deliver on time. Now it's the twist of the tale, and the scumbag Repubs who created the crisis jump out from behind Bush and claim to be heroes. It's all drama.
Are you left coasters staying up until midnight -on a Friday- to watch this debate? H A R D C O R E
Wachovia and Citi? Isn't this called tying two dead ponies together to see if they can pull a cart?
Persecuted Comrade Anonymouse writes:
Are you left coasters staying up until midnight -on a Friday- to watch this debate? H A R D C O R E
It's at 6:00 PM on the West Coast...lay off the bong
Citigroup + Wachovia = Cit-ovia
(Pronounce "sit -over- ya". And watch out below!)
Are you left coasters staying up until midnight -on a Friday- to watch this debate? H A R D C O R E
Definitely. I want to learn where each candidate stands on gay marriage!
Wisdom lies in getting rid of one's illusions. Lord Acton
Calling things by their proper name (reflecting the characteristics) is the beginning of wisdom. Confucius.
Please remember that I wasn't born with any insights and I was a dope once and still am in some ways that I don't yet know. The only thing is that I recognize and admit to my mistakes as soon as evidence contrary to my beliefs mount. I held many of the beliefs in the Americans system that born-and-bred American dopes hold. Then my passion to understand the American system took me to where few dare to go.
Jas
Persecuted Comrade Anonymouse writes:
Are you left coasters staying up until midnight -on a Friday- to watch this debate? H A R D C O R E
Anyone who can't stay up past John McCain deserves to have their hand put in warm water and their face graffiti'd with a sharpie.
I'm in.
The Clearing House boys
James Dimon\t\tJPMorgan Chase & Co\t
Victor Menezes\t\tCitigroup Inc.\t
Norman Bobins\t\tLaSalle Bank National Association\t
Kenneth Lewis\t\tBank of America Corporation
Thomas Renyi\t\tDPM Mellon\t
Juergen Fitschen\tDeutsche Bank AG\t
Youssef Nasr\t\tHSBC Holdings plc\t
William Harrison Jr.\tMerck & Co. Inc.\t
Richard Kovacevich\tWells Fargo & Company\t
G. Thompson\t\tFederal Reserve Bank of Richmond\t
Martin Glynn\t\tMF Global Ltd\t55
Richard Davis\t\tUS Bancorp
Wisdom Seeker writes:
Citigroup + Wachovia = Cit-ovia
Wachovia +Citigroup = Watchin-u
It's at 6:00 PM on the West Coast...lay off the bong
tbapple |
Please ignore this. Commence with the bongmanship.
How about: Chovitia
Kind of like Chlamydia, but worse?
M Y B A D
CSC-
Hear hear..it's after work let them do what they want.
I still think Nemo has the best name:
Wacitia ( wa shit tia)
Ciao
MS
wachgroup
Here's a thought...since JPM wrote down $31 billion of WAMU's loan portfolio, does that mean they won't be in that big of a rush to foreclose, since they've already recognized the losses? Or, alternatively, they could shift a bunch of WAMU employees from origination to workout?
Front page of news.bbc.co.uk, two headlines:
"Legacy of Distrust" - experts discuss how to restore US's damaged image
RIGHT NEXT TO...
"Defying the Nazis" - Uncovering one woman's inspiring Resistance memoirs.
Coincidence? Hmm...
beetlejuice can be mascot
beetlejuice
I would LOVE to hear the phone bank over at PIMCO right about now.....
they are about to be wiped out in almost all there positions in the debt markets.
Couldn't happen to a nicer douche...
Ciao
MS
The merger should be nicknamed Highlander.
Because in the end there can be only one...
So who will be the last bank standing?
BofAT => Bank of American Taxpayers?
Plane to catch.
borat bank of raped amer. taxpayer
From Forbes:
Dimon added that he supported the federal government's efforts to come up with a $700 billion fund to buy up toxic mortgage and other debts weighing on bank balance sheets, but said he wouldn't necessarily unload assets acquired in the WaMu deal on the proposed loan facility. "We're in favor of what the government is doing but we're not relying on what the government is doing," he said Thursday night. "We're not necessarily going to use it."
Once Again, JPMorgan Mops Up The Mess - Forbes.com
Anon writes:
You won't be laughing when Sarah Palin is President.
I will. Because I will be in New Zealand.
repost from a earlier thread that went dead right after I posted it and also repostedfrom Zacks.com:
It is clear to me that we have to do something and do something soon to resolve the mess on Wall St. The financial system is facing both a liquidity problem and a solvency problem. I would set up what would be in effect a U.S. sovereign wealth fund. This fund would then buy, at current market prices new stock in large financial institutions giving the fund a 49% stake in each institution. The shareholders of these firms would be diluted, but the institutions would then be adequately capitalized. In essence the problem is that we have to much leverage (Assets/Equity) in the system. The Paulson/Dodd proposals essentially attack the problem from the asset side of the equation. This proposal would attack it from the equity side of the equation.
The Paulson/Dodd approach would buy up troubled assets. However much would depend on what price would be paid for these assets, most of which are currently very illiquid, opaque, complex and far from homogenous. If the price paid was close to recent market prices, then banks would still have to recognize a big loss and their capital would be depleted. It would only help the banks if the price paid was well above the current market prices. The difference between market price and the government paid price (What Bernanke was referring to as the held to maturity value) would in effect be a direct subsidy to the asset seller. That would help shore up the banks capital position and also give it some cash to resume lending. As losses are recognized however, it directly hurts the banks capital (unless the asset has already been marked down to that level or lower). Both assets and equity go down, but on a percentage basis equity goes down further, which increases leverage. Also it is not at all targeted to those institutions which are the most under-capitalized; the subsidy goes to which ever institution sells the asset.
The equity approach would also provide the banks with fresh cash to lend with. However, it comes with a stiff price as the existing shareholders are diluted. However, if an institution is leveraged at 20:1 then you get 20x as much bang for your buck in bringing down leverage by attacking the 0ne than you do by attacking the 20. Also, the price of the equity is open, liquid and transparent. There is no difficulty in judging how much to pay, and when the markets recover, the taxpayer gets lots of upside. For $700 billion, at current market capitalizations, taxpayers could own 49% of most of the Financial sector.
The one commentator here who seems to have been right all along is mp/Conjure. Trying to fit the events to his commentary I get something like this:
-by extension then, this isn't a debate about what happens to a bunch of banks, it's what happens to the US dollar and the status of the US central bank as the Big Man on Campus
Does that fit? Did I make an obvious mistake?
Cheers.
I am 7 miles from Pimco with the window open. I'll report back if I hear Gross' head explode.
I scalped a 2 1/2% profit today on a market bet I placed yesterday. I should feel good about that, but I don't. If the bailout comes through over the weekend, I erred.
Anonymous writes:
I would LOVE to hear the phone bank over at PIMCO right about now.....
The banksters are taking no prisoners. there are a lot of people that own bonds besides PIMCO
they are about to be wiped out in almost all there positions in the debt markets.
sorry to be dense: why do you say that?
Our country will become one giant flee market. Everything from Lehman's Ferrari's to Joe6Pack slightly used plasma TVs...all for the picking for shoppers from Dubai.
Wachovia + Citigroup is like a leech, dying of a hemorrhagic virus, trying to attach itself to a leper in order to prolong its own survival.
Persecuted Comrade Anonymouse: you've got your clock ass backwards. The debate in PDT is 3 hours EARLIER than EDT....
Kneel_before_Zod writes:
Our country will become one giant flee market. Everything from Lehman's Ferrari's to Joe6Pack slightly used plasma TVs...all for the picking for shoppers from Dubai.
Aren't we already ? Hasn't that been taking place for the past 6 months ?
The financial system is facing both a liquidity problem and a solvency problem.
Dirk, it's more than that.
There is no officially a confidence problem. Nobody trusts anyone to do the right thing, and the only proposal from the government is to send a trillion bucks to the people with demonstrated incompetence in running a business.
The confidence issue can only be addressed by proper & correct action over long periods of time. Until that occurs, the crisis will stay with us.
Is it just me, or does Sarah Palin conjure up the image of Peter Sellers as Chauncey Gardener in "Being There" for you too?
ew thread...
Our country will become one giant flee market.
You actually meant flea market, but I think flee market was a great freudian slip.
at our regional car auction lot here in lakeland fl, there is a huge number of boats and rvs growing for the last year--used to be only cars
You actually meant flea market, but I think flee market was a great freudian slip.
LOL. Nice catch.
Charles Ponzi writes:
Is it just me, or does Sarah Palin conjure up the image of Peter Sellers as Chauncey Gardener in "Being There" for you too?
I see Palin more as a Spiro Agnew with ovaries.
Money for nothing banking 'giveaway' coming but banks going under anyway. Born and bred American dope banks.
Elvis writes:
Wells Fargo is talking to Wachovia now (CNBC)
Elvis - Ya think the executives feel like street hookers?
ug. can't type: To dirk above, substitute -
This is now officially a confidence problem.
Where's Genghis been?
@Zod, "Bank of American Taxpayers" would be BoAT.
We're in the same boat, brother... if you shake one end, you're gonna rock the other...
Is it just me, or does Sarah Palin conjure up the image of Peter Sellers
Put on your glasses. Here's <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnT9W0ONycc> video from the 1984 Miss Alaska Pageant.
Cliffo: As a 36 year old dude, she looks better today than in 1984. She was pretty plain back then, but now she's like Larry Flynt's naughty librarian.
There's going to be a ton of home buyers frantically jumping in to buy homes & have the American Dream when the taxpayer 'giveaway' to the surviving banks is passed through the bowels of Congress this weekend. Hooray. The bottom has been wiped and is IN! Now the public can eat it!
Sarah will support the nuclear attack of the evil Iran who are planning to nuke the world! Hooray! Let's nuke!
Let's let those Israeli subs fire those nukes. The economy will soar!
Hi Jas,
Let's stop complaining about the powerless born & bred American dopes and focus on the born & bred war mongering Hawk dopes...
Be a good debate tonight. Vote for who wants to nuke Iran the soonest...just kidding. Nuking Iran is dopey like this dopey bank heist taxpayer 'giveaway' plan...Jas is dopey too.
Yes I realize there are more bondholder's than PIMCO. They just happen to be the LARGEST.
Ciao
MS
I said it yesterday and earlier today. Wells has been strangely quiet over the last few weeks.
That doesn't mean any of these rumors are true. Look what we had right before LEH... KDB, CIT, WB AND MS were all touted as "potentially interested" in acquiring LEH.....all of those rumors were floated in TWO hours time on the friday before it was allowed to fail.
We've had virtually the same pattern this evening with WB and with BSC in mid-march.
The mantra is to make sure the FDIC does not have to get involved and deplete it's already dwindling insurance fund. The only way to do that is find a party that can bring something (not much in the case of JPM) to the table which will allow the deposit base to remain untouched (at least in that portion of the deal) but wipe out the common, preferred and bondholder's.
Those 3 are the equal to the depositor base having to be insured at this point. OTS holds an "auction" and whoever is interested is allowed to cherry pick assets while leaving the bad ones in the holding company.
Neat way to do it eh?
Ciao
MS
We saw these kind of "negotiations" in WAMU case.
Here is blueprint from the Feds to Citi.
1) Look at the books for 2-3 days while "mark's" stock is sliding.
2) Step aside and make no offer. Leak to WSJ about how bad things are.
3) Call Sheila and offer her 1.5% on deposits.
4) Sheila will make (on your behalf) Thursday/Friday night special offer they can not refuse. "Moral hazard" lesson to shareholders and bondholders (while they are bent over).
Fat cats don't appreciate what sort of impact their actions have on a regular fellow who spent a few years socking away a few bucks in 401/bank account.
Treasury/FDIC honchos and big bankers - You will not see much this cash in the coming years. Many paychecks will go straight to cash, under the mattress and not to the bank. Anyone who thinks bonds or additional share issuance for remaining banks is an option going forward is kidding themselves.
The big boys already decided who lives and who dies and the rest is just a charade.
just sayin'
It 'peers that nothing gives a dog as much pleasure as smelling another dogs butt. Ain't that many dog butts in the country so they have to settle for chasin' rabbits and stuff.
You country guys take tour mutts into town to a dog run and they will go wild with that anal aroma paradise. Then see if they want to go back to the country.
If you look at the actions of our government and banking over the last years nothing makes sense (especially Palin as VP). The only possible scenario is that someone wants to completely destroy confidence in the United States.
"I took out $10k in cash, all hundreds, yesterday at Citi at about 10:00am PST."
I did the same at BofA yesterday.
[$100 X 6] + [$20 X 200].
Do those tellers ever wonder what a dollar exactly is?
Neither does Bush, never mind. The Treasury can create as many he needs, so why worry.
"[$100 X 6] + [$20 X 200]"
Oops that should be
[$100 X 60] + [$20 X 200].
Greg Weston, thanks for your coverage on FED and DSL, as I have followed them for a while and you have been spot on. I didn't follow BKUNA as closely, as the FED/DSL coupling was sooooo easy to trade while staying short at least one of them.
Made a quick killing on some FED puts today, then out.