this is so depressing

if they are going to vote it's a done deal.

No bailout, no piece!

The credit markets will loosen and equities will rally and the can is further down the road .

Congress to vote on Monday, Senate on Wednesday.

.... America in November.

Are there any anti-speculation rules regarding the Financials' use of the bailout funds, in order to avoid hyperinflation of oil, food & other commodity prices?.....if not, why not?

Is the bill up on the intertubes yet?

Isn't there a policy against negotiating with terrorists?

I'm normally a fan of Buffet, but it's quite ridiculous he's injected himself in these discussions when there's clear conflict of interest.

Besides, in the end, Buffet is still an investor, not an economist. Perhaps he has a great deal of economic know-how, but Congress should be discussing this with people who dedicate their lives to macroeconomics.

1.
From what I just read the Fortis problem stems from their acquiring ARN just too late in the game.
2.
As far as them and others acquiring our dreck they wanted to beleve that somebody had dropped Foi gras on the street.. bad for them.
Like many here they bought into the Reagan dream of the economic perpetual-motion machine. I do not know how the economic concept of risk and the thermodynamic concept of entropy have been related ( as Shannon did with Uncertainty and Entropy)but it seems intuitively clear that at a deep level they are the same. So one cannot overcome risk any more then entropy. Overcoming entropy is at the heart of perpetual motion)

There aint no free lunch. What we have done since 2000 is to collectively acquire a huge bar bill.
We all were drinking and so now we must all pay.

Regardless of then they vote, and when it gets signed, does UST get to start handing out vouchers on Monday ?

If the banks don't get money by Tuesday, then their desperate balance sheets will get committed to ink on the 9/30 Call reports.

Does a "complete meltdown" cost the average US family $11,000 - like this bailout does? I kinda doubt it. People who took outsized risks get crushed, some big companies/institutions fail (happens all the time in various different sectors - steel, telecom, dot-coms, agriculture, S&Ls) and yet the US marches on. It stuggles perhaps - but it marches on.

Why does the economy always have to be growing, anyways?

EXTORTION. Pure and simple.

I am not giving up. I will not allow a gun to be placed to my head and asked to decide. I could care less what party is next to their name, if they vote for this, I am voting for their opponent.

A material event after quarter end must be taken into account so if the bill passes, securities will not be marked down as agressively by the accountants.

It's so exciting that we are going to get to own mark to myth, mark to made-it-up and mark to make-believe insecurities----now we are part of big time wallstreet!!!

JP,

Not to mention housing prices continue to fall.

I heard on ABC this morning- I think Reich or Newt said- that they can only divy out like 50 billion a month under this plan? What good is that?

How bad must this plan be when everyone from Newt to Reich are opposed to it? Newt wants Paulson fired. Nobody believes a word he says.

This is tragic.

Do not give up.

Vote this down.

but but but buffet likes the bill!!! OK we dopes must be wrong then.

Maybe all Americans just sit at home on their collective asses until we find out how it is going to go one way or another. I wonder what they would think about that. Hummmmmmmmmmm

So where the heck is the miserable bill? Are they afraid to put it on-line as promised?

The trouble is the money won't even end up in the right place-- Roubini should be in charge of doling it out.He's world's better than a pack of bankster mafiosi.

Funny, all you people think you know enough about Warren Buffett, but you don't even spell his last name right.

http://www.daypitney.com/news/docs/dp_2307.pdf

oThe maximum amount of authorized purchases outstanding at any one
time is $700 billion. However, this authority is subject to the following
limitations:
􏰀 The authority of the Secretary to purchase Troubled Assets
shall be initially limited to $250 billion outstanding at any one
time. [38]
􏰀 If at any time the President submits to the Congress written
notification that the Secretary is exercising the authority,
effective upon such submission, the limitation shall increase to
$350 billion outstanding at any one time. [38]
􏰀 If at any time the President submits to the Congress a written
report detailing the plan of the Secretary to exercise the
authority under this paragraph, unless there is enacted within
15 calendar days of such submission, a joint resolution,
effective upon the expiration of such 15 day period, the
authority increases to $700 billion outstanding at any one time

Nancy better get the freakin' bill released or her hope of 24 hours of inspection before voting will be shot...

Or is she heaping the rants on the Senate, those esteemed millionaires?

At least she can tell if the Repubs are going to try to make an issue of it with the extra 2 days. If they do, then the Dems can partially reverse course.

Comrade Peripheral Visionary,

People don't listen when they are angry. It's fight of flight. Unless Congress wants to face the wrath of a mob of angry voters, it should table the issue, hold hearings, and get the public on board. People are still basking in the strong fundamentals of our economy.

AFTER FIVE YEARS???? Vote this down.

WASHINGTON, Sept 27 (Reuters) - Democrats in the U.S. House of Representatives are pushing for a new Wall Street tax that would cover the potential costs of a $700 billion bailout being negotiated by Congress and the Bush administration.

Pelosi said that the Secretary of the Treasury could determine how to assess the fee.'

This is all about grabbing as much cash for their tribes before the big goodnight.

How do I make money from the stupidity and/or corruption of this system?

You guys would be sad if you weren't so funny. The fact that calls and EMails to Congress are 100:1 against doesn't reflect the general public. Polls show the public split about evenly. And if Congress did nothing and the Dow dropped 2,000 points, you would see about 90% demanding immediate action. Despite the hoopla, very few, if any, Congress types will lose their seat over this that weren't going to lose already.

Try and live in the real world guys. I know it don't thrill you, I hope it don't kill you.

All the goodies have been divided up---now it's just time for the rubberstamp. Where's that rogue nuke when you need it!

ox-Pitt said about $79.4 billion of Citigroup’s (C.N: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) troubled assets may be eligible for sale under the government’s proposed bail out plan, adding the company need not raise capital to remain “well-capitalized.”

Analyst David Trone noted Citi may however raise capital just to appease market concerns about its risk and soundness.

The brokerage estimates that of the $79.4 billion worth assets, $22.4 billion will be in sub-prime and $21.5 billion in residential loans.

The analyst said Citi may have to take a pre-tax charge of $21 billion if assets were to be transferred to Troubled Assets Relief Program (TARP) at market prices.

“However, if assets are transferred at near held-to-maturity price levels, this charge could be significantly lower or possibly, result in a gain,” Fox-Pitt said in a note to clients.

To all free-marketers and laissez-faire "libertarians" out there:

Your dream is dead with the passage of this bill.

No meltdown will be prevented, nothing will be saved. Even if they printed up $1T and loaded into boxcars headed straight for Wall Street tomorrow, it would barely come close to a downpayment on the costs to prevent what is now inevitable.

What this bill will almost certainly accomplish is the cementing of a psychology of entitlement across the country. Everyone will want (and arguably should want) a bailout now. En masse, people will stop paying their bills and the harder it becomes to make a living wagem the higher the waves of insolvency that will begin washing ashore.

Coming soon, to an American city near you: a massive welfare state, confiscatory taxes and an increasingly authoritarian civil rule.

CR, do you think this plan will ultimately result in more write-offs and dilutive capital raises by the weaker banks?

This sucker's going down.

"We believe the effect of the troubles in the subprime sector on the broader housing market will be limited and we do not expect significant spillovers from the subprime market to the rest of the economy or to the financial system," - Bernanke, May 17, 2007.

There is good reason for mistrust in Bernanke and Paulson (let alone Congress). How is it that Bernanke isn't fired? He could have read this blog and figured things out in 2006. He could have addressed the emerging crisis back then. Now with his credibility in tatters he asks for a leap of faith? Forget it.

bernanke has always been a puppet ---he and paulson have always had that nervous stutter because they knew what was coming and knew they were going to pull off this heist.

he and paulson have always had that nervous stutter because they knew what was coming and knew they were going to pull off this heist.

As did the entire House and Senate. The bankruptcy reform act was the biggest bi-partisan piece of legislation passed since 9/11

JP writes:
Polls show the public split about evenly.

Link? FYI: Click on my homepage for 70/30 split.

While the Rasmussen Consumer Index shows both consumer and investor confidence hovering around record lows, two-thirds of Americans (66%) still think buying a home is the best investment most families can make.

The public sometimes is not very bright or right, look who's been the prez. i mean haha.

Call House Republicans and tell them to stand strong. I just spoke to McCotter, R. MI., his aide.

Tell them they (the 149 House Repubs. who voted against the Fannie/freddie bailout) need to keep it up.

Force the Dems to pass it on their own, just like they passed F/F bailout on their own.

McCotter, R. MI.
Garrett, R. NJ
DeMint, R. SC
Bachman, R. Minn.
Hensarling, R. TX.
Bacchus, R. Alabama
Feeney, R. FLA.

These are just a few of the 149 Repubs. who voted against the Fan/Fred bailout.

Pull up the roll call for HR 3221 to get a complete list of Repubs who voted against Fan/Fred bailout.

Call them! They care about you!

Forget about calling the 229 Dems and 45 Repubs. who voted for Fan/Fred bailout.

Toll free Cap. Hill switchboard (some aides working Sunday):

1-877-851-6437
1-866-338-1015

Tell the Aide to go to http://www.FedUpUSA.org for ideas for true solutions to the credit mess.

Every time I watch a Ron Paul video, I feel like there is some common sense and hope.

"If we do not pass this, we shouldn't be a Congress," he said.

Really? You can spend all night in multiple hand wringing sessions on this Wall Street bailout, but pass a 600 billion dollar budget in one day as an omnibus bill that is laden with pork?

Frikkin HYPOCRITE.

I agree- GO HOME.

The republican party is in collapse less than 60 days away from an election.

Democrat voters like big government and spending programs, they aren't going to lose any voters from their base.

“It is a cruel thought, that, when we feel ourselves standing on the firmest ground in every respect, the cursed arts of our secret enemies, combining with other causes, should effect, by depreciating our money, what the open arms of a powerful enemy could not.” ~Letter to Richard Henry Lee, 1779 by Thomas Jefferson

“Our public credit is good, but the abundance of paper has produced a spirit of gambling in the funds, which has laid up our ships at the wharves as too slow instruments of profit, and has even disarmed the hand of the tailor of his needle and thimble. They say the evil will cure itself. I wish it may; but I have rarely seen a gamester cured, even by the disasters of his vocation.” by Thomas Jefferso

Democrat voters like big government and spending programs, they aren't going to lose any voters from their base.

Oh i don't know, my pet pig sure likes that Shelby guy, doesn't look like he's into pork on this one.

onlineaces-----nice!

The guy at Pelosi's office says the bill will be posted here: House Financial Services Committee but he doesn't know when.

Comrade,
Politics and economics are all wrapped up on this one.

Ugh, can we talk economics and not politics?

Only if our elected officials promise the same

The bill should be posted right after shrub signs it.

People relax about the $700 Billion, it's just the first step and once they pass this, the ball will keep rolling out of control, with no oversight!

At the rate this collapse is going, a LOT can happen before the vote on Wednesday.

Bush back to drinking and snorting coke yet?

sterlingerl writes:
"Now Warren Buffett (cnn, 16 minutes ago) is saying if the bailout is not passed there will be total meltdown. Well duh, yes for him, who just invested in Goldman. This endless fear mongering is getting tiresome. If there is going to be a meltdown, let's see it for heaven sake, so we can move on."

QFT! Give that man a stack of gold coins!

Text of H.R. 2755: Federal Reserve Board Abolition Act
House Resolution 2755

SEC. 2. FEDERAL RESERVE BOARD ABOLISHED.
(a) In General- Effective at the end of the 1-year period beginning on the date of the enactment of this Act, the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System and each Federal reserve bank are hereby abolished.
(b) Repeal of Federal Reserve Act- Effective at the end of the 1-year period beginning on the date of the enactment of this Act, the Federal Reserve Act is hereby repealed.
(c) Disposition of Affairs-
(1) MANAGEMENT DURING DISSOLUTION PERIOD- During the 1-year period referred to in subsection (a), the Chairman of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System--
(A) shall, for the sole purpose of winding up the affairs of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System and the Federal reserve banks--

Paulson is flying a nuclear bomb into wall street. Why is he any different from a terrorist in a plane with a bomb?

SDMisfit---yeah extra fat is better than high personal savings, and a low national debt circa 1929

Exactly JP---just think what these borrowed funds could do! Insted of saving the bankster mafia

On the assumption that there actually is a crisis,

Should a Financial Institution not wish to take part because of the requirement for equity participation by the Government (on behalf of the Taxpayer), then so be it. They are on their own. They can sink or swim.

Should a Financial Institution not wish to take part because of the requirement for restrictions on executive compensation, then so be it. They are on their own. They can sink or swim.

Should a Financial Institution not wish to take part because of the requirement for independent oversight and transparency, then so be it. They are on their own. They can sink or swim.

So if large Banks, Wall Street or otherwise, find the terms less than palatable that leaves more for small regional banks. And if a prolonged recession (depression) occurs the money will be better placed there rather than Wall Street.

I like the idea (ok it may not happen) of “requiring posting of transactions online”. I hope they mean within a short space of time following the transaction. If this is the case the market will have information it can use to discover price.

However, even if there is a crisis, and presuming that these measures stave off that crisis, the USA still needs to way up to the fact that as a Nation and as Individuals the game is over. Too much debt at a National and Individual level.

These measures may or may not stop imminent Armageddon.

But one thing is for sure they do nothing to stop the inevitable deep recession.

The funny money is gone and it’s not coming back any time soon.

Of course if Hank actually needed $700 right now to pay off his gambling debts it won’t work.

The debt collector will give him two days and promise to break his legs after that.

max

Pollster.com: What the Bailout Polls Really Tell Us

Pew shows 2:1 for; LA Times /Bloomberg 2:1 against

WaPo ande CBS/NYT are about 50:50.

I suspect it depends on the exact phrasing of the ?

How come I can't find info on this legislation? Is America a democracy?

Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress)

How dire must the situation really be, that these congressmen are willing to vote against the publics wish of no bailout even if it means their job come November.

It must be that bad.

Max People who contact their reps are mostly ideological whackos of the left or right and not representative of the average joe. Also what if someone calls their rep and says I'm against it unless it has A, B and C. Suppose A and B are now in it. How do you count that call?

Well,,i dont know,,was expecting something to happen today and finish up on monday,, i bet the asian markets open lower..

Comrade Gavshire Hathaway writes:
Sorry for the OT (only kinda, sadly)

Does anybody here have any recommendations for shotguns? I'm looking for some insurance against financial armageddon.

Also, even if we aren't facing economic doomsday, I'd like to be able to use it for Trap shooting.

Does anyone have a favorite model?

I hear Biden's favorite is a Baretta. LOL, but that's another story.

covered executive

This is like The DOL exemption for prohibited action in The PPA

One thing I will guarantee is if the bill goes down and the market crashes anyone who voted No is toast. If you vote Yes and the market goes down in 3 or 6 months you can easily say, you tried your best.

mmcknl: You couldn't pay me enough to deal with an idiot like you

OT (please help)- I have 100% of my money now in a treasury money market with Vanguard. All of the assets within the fund are invested in US treasuries. I thought it was a safe bet. But if the system collapses as they say it could, how do I get my money out? Vanguard will have to write me a check and checks wouldn't be cashed in an all-out financial disaster.

What are people doing with their money now? Curious, because I'm confused as hell.

SEC. 115. GRADUATED AUTHORIZATION TO PURCHASE.
9
(a) AUTHORITY.—The authority of the Secretary to
10
purchase troubled assets under this Act shall be limited
11
as follows:
12
(1) Effective upon the date of enactment of this
13
Act, such authority shall be limited to
14
$250,000,000,000 outstanding at any one time.
15
(2) If at any time, the President submits to the
16
Congress a written certification that the Secretary is
17
exercising the authority under this paragraph, effec-
18
tive upon such submission, such authority shall be
19
limited to $350,000,000,000 outstanding at any one
20
time.
21

Thats why i wish they would vote down the bill,,just to see how many banks have been cheating..

Ricky, what are you doing?

What are people doing with their money now? Curious, because I'm confused as hell.

Overseas markets look good, especially commodities and beaten down stocks for the longer run.

i can tell ya,,,my bank has 'no' safety deposit boxes avail... a condition that has never been...

Good to know, I will call today and in the AM tomorrow .

"There is a scorecard, staffers assume each communication is representative of
5 votes for an email
50 votes for a phone call.

When the AB/ABC comm happens, a portion is put into each column. It's inexact, but these folks are never working with exact info.?

hmmmm

SEC. 122. INCREASE IN STATUTORY LIMIT ON THE PUBLIC
7
DEBT.
8
Subsection (b) of section 3101 of title 31, United
9
States Code, is amended by striking out the dollar limita-
10
tion contained in such subsection and inserting
11
‘‘$11,315,000,000,000’’.
12

Ok, WTF is this??

Subsection (b) of section 3101 of title 31, United
States Code, is amended by striking out the dollar limitation contained in such subsection and inserting $11,315,000,000,000’’. 12

Raising the debt ceiling.

Sec. 10. Increase in Statutory Limit on the Public Debt.

Subsection (b) of section 3101 of title 31, United States Code, is amended by striking out the dollar limitation contained in such subsection and inserting in lieu thereof $11,315,000,000,000.

- NY Times

The Dems pass it and send it to Bush ...

all money goes through the FDIC to re-capitalize solvent banks while insolvent banks are stripped and the business merged with good banks.
mmckinl | 09.28.08 - 4:09 pm | #

That assumes the Repubs don't filibuster it in the Senate. It just ain't going to happen right now. Maybe in Jan with a new Congress and Pres.

“[The] Bank of the United States… is one of the most deadly hostility existing, against the principles and form of our Constitution… An institution like this, penetrating by its branches every part of the Union, acting by command and in phalanx, may, in a critical moment, upset the government. I deem no government safe which is under the vassalage of any self-constituted authorities, or any other authority than that of the nation, or its regular functionaries.” ~Letter to Albert Gallatin, 1803

HELLO:

This is worth reading IMHO:

RULE XXVII: STATUTORY LIMIT ON PUBLIC DEBT

1. Upon adoption by Congress of a concurrent resolution on the budget under section 301 or 304 of the Congressional Budget Act of 1974 that sets forth, as the appropriate level of the public debt for the period to which the concurrent resolution relates, an amount that is different from the amount of the statutory limit on the public debt that otherwise would be in effect for that period, the Clerk shall prepare an engrossment of a joint resolution increasing or decreasing, as the case may be, the statutory limit on the public debt in the form prescribed in clause 2. Upon engrossment of the joint resolution, the vote by which the concurrent resolution on the budget was finally agreed to in the House shall also be considered as a vote on passage of the joint resolution in the House, and the joint resolution shall be considered as passed by the House and duly certified and examined. The engrossed copy shall be signed by the Clerk and transmitted to the Senate for further legislative action.
2. The matter after the resolving clause in a joint resolution described in clause 1 shall be as follows: ''That subsection (b) of section 3101 of title 31, United States Code, is amended by striking out the dollar limitation contained in such subsection and inserting in lieu thereof '$_________'.'', with the blank being filled with a dollar limitation equal to the appropriate level of the public debt set forth pursuant to section 301(a)(5) of the Congressional Budget Act of 1974 in the relevant concurrent resolution described in clause 1. If an adopted concurrent resolution under clause 1 sets forth different appropriate levels of the public debt for separate periods, only one engrossed joint resolution shall be prepared under clause 1; and the blank referred to in the preceding sentence shall be filled with the limitation that is to apply for each period.
3. (a) The report of the Committee on the Budget on a concurrent resolution described in clause 1 and the joint explanatory statement of the managers on a conference report to accompany such a concurrent resolution each shall contain a clear statement of the effect the eventual enactment of a joint resolution engrossed under this rule would have on the statutory limit on the public debt. (b) It shall not be in order for the House to consider a concurrent resolution described in clause 1, or a conference report thereon, unless the report of the Committee on the Budget or the joint explanatory statement of the managers complies with paragraph (a).
4. Nothing in this rule shall be construed as limiting or otherwise affecting- (a) the power of the House or the Senate to consider and pass bills or joint resolutions, without regard to the procedures under clause 1, that would change the statutory limit on the public debt; or (b) the rights of Members, Delegates, the Resident Commissioner, or committees with respect to the introduction, consideration, and reporting of such bills or joint resolutions.
5. In this rule the term ''statutory limit on the public debt'' means the maximum face amount of obligations issued under authority of chapter 31 of title 31, United States Code, and obligations guaranteed as to principal and interest by the United States (except such guaranteed obligations as may be held by the Secretary of the Treasury), as determined under section 3101(b) of such title after the application of section 3101(a) of such title, that may be outstanding at any one time.

Office of the Clerk Rules of the House

I feel comfortable ...
I feel good ...
I feel confident ...

Those are Wall Street weasel words to say whatever you want to say. They commit you to nothing and are utterly meaningless. I remember how my old WS boss used them.

And, nobody, it will fail. There is not enough money in the world to save us.

I agree that the plan will do very little.

Kona writes:
HELLO:

This is worth reading IMHO:

Does this mean they can break their own self imposed ceiling?

This is only 'one' of the challanges facing the country,, if this bailout fixes all the problems,,,i would quit message boards...lol

Fuck you Paulson, you fucking crook!

Sec. 8. Review.

Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are
non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be
reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency.
Kona | 09.28.08 - 4:22 pm | #

dryfly-I respect your position. But this plan will calm the markets somewhat and very little actual money will be spent by Jan, so I lean to doing it and then taking it all up then and putting something much better in place.

Best wishes to all.

How can anyone back this type of mafia/fascist extortion? This is America, where are the people?

Re: Sec. 8. Review.

Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are
non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be
reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency.
Kona | 09.28.08 - 4:25 pm | #

Where are the people????

I can wait - by then we'll have a lot better idea of the real damage - less hype.

I suppose, but Paulson guaranteed that the markets will panic if something (regardless of what) isn't done as a signal that the US is willing to intervene more directly and explicitly.

Congress doesn't adjourn without doing something.

Paulson/Bush/Republicans have forced something to happen. If that something is nothing, then they have moved up a total rout of the economy to the month before the elections.

No one wants to see greed bailed out..... most people would be quite pleased with a proactive "rescue" of their own employers, 401k, etc. Simply a matter of framing.

KILL THE BILL!!!!!!

The thing here is, they have so much going on, so fast and so much legislation connecting crap, that there is confusion, chaos and a lack of democracy!

This Bailout Plan is a lot like a synthetic derivative, in that we have very little idea as to what connects this bill to the last bill and so on and so on....

I have no idea yet, if Section 8 (LEGISLATIVE PROPOSAL FOR TREASURY AUTHORITY
TO PURCHASE TROUBLED ASSETS ) connects to The ‘Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008:

Sec. 8. Review.

Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are
non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be
reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency.

I hope our Reps are less confused and I hope they have time to NOT panic and look at every detail and then take time to use common sense -- versus being retards!

zuzu,

Yah, I agree, The Pension Protection Act was 1000 pages and few people even knew it was written -- besides SIFMA -- who wrote it!

Only A Divine Intervention From God, Could Stop This Proposal From Passing.

Presenting, Rosh Hashana.

Oh, this is nice:

TROUBLED ASSETS.—The term ‘‘troubled
assets’’ means—

..any other financial instrument that the Secretary, after consultation with the Chairman of the Board of Governors of the Federal
Reserve System, determines the purchase of which is necessary to promote financial market stability,

blah, blah.... Secretary of the Treasury
has taken or plans to take using any authority provided in the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008, including an estimate of the current value of all assets purchased and sold under the authority provided in the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008 using methodology required by
the Federal Credit Reform Act of 1990 and section of the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008..

Hmmm, methodology required by
the Federal Credit Reform Act of 1990

Re: The trend for the subsidy reestimates has been for the magnitude to increase,but in May 2001, CBO stated that it lacked any methodology to forecast the direction or size of future reestimates. 27

27 U.S. Congressional Budget Office, An Analysis of the President’s Budgetary Proposalsfor Fiscal Year 2002 (Washington: May 2002), p. 4

http://digital.library.unt.edu/govdocs/crs//data/2003/upl-meta-crs-7706/RL30346_2003Jun23.pdf

Federal Credit Reform: Implementation
Of the Changed Budgetary Treatment of
Direct Loans and Loan Guarantees