Shouldnt Dems have tossed the whole Paulson approach out the window and done something completely different? . . .
putting myself in Barney Frank or Nancy Pelosis shoes, Id look at it this way: the Democrats could start over, with a bailout plan that is, say, centered on purchases of preferred stock and takeovers of failing firms basically, a plan clearly focused on recapitalizing the financial sector, with nationalization where necessary. Thats what the plan should have looked like.
Maybe such a plan would have passed Congress; and maybe, just maybe Bush would have signed on; Paulson is certainly desperate for a deal.
But such a plan would have had next to no Republican votes and the Republicans would have demagogued against it full tilt. And the Democratic leadership cannot, cannot, be seen to have sole ownership of this stuff.
So that, I think, is why it had to be done this way. I dont like it, and I dont like the plan, but I see the constraints under which Dodd, Frank, Pelosi, and Reid were operating.
I agree, except that I think Bush/Paulson never would have agreed to such a Dem bill and, even if they agreed they couldn't implement it for lack of skill and lack of political capital.
I agree, except that I think Bush/Paulson never would have agreed to such a Dem bill and, even if they agreed they couldn't implement it for lack of skill and lack of political capital.
If it's the goddamn emergency they say it is, then they'll sign it even if it doesn't help Hank's buddies on WS. History is a harsh judge.
And if they don't sign it, then I doubt it needs bailing.
Was it , what, it seems 10 years ago everyone was worrying about the monoline insurers. Today that seems like fawns gamboling through a meadow compared to today's zombie attacks. CR has done so much to make us think, I think Edmund Gosse had it right:
And now on viewless wings elate
I speed my visionary flight
O'er bosky glen, and heather-mantled height;
Be thou my Guide, my Teacher, and inspire
My heart with such poetic fire,
That ever where my else-unheeded voice
Shall echo through the land, all men may know
That I have been with thee, and may rejoice,
And feel their weary heats with hope and gladness glow.
"...but I see the constraints under which Dodd, Frank, Pelosi, and Reid were operating"
Granted. But there is such a thing as foresight, as anticipating paths you might need to take. In fairness, Paulson was the one most blind to the issue, but Congress must share.
The lack of planning on their part is now an emergency on out part - just like the old slogan.
If it's the goddamn emergency they say it is, then they'll sign it even if it doesn't help Hank's buddies on WS. History is a harsh judge.
....
history will be a harsh judge, very soon, today even.
but there are lots of reps who today said the crisis is real and needs prompt action, but they won't vote for this bill.
so Bush/Paulson would do the same with a Dem sponsored bill based on the Roubini Plan (what I want!!). Bush/Paulson would say no, Congress couldn't override the Bush veto, and if congress did override or Bush chickened out then Bush/Paulson could not execute it.
@mykillk: Wachovia was like Bear Sterns. Citi gets the bank, with assets, but the government (FDIC in this case rather than the Fed) is on the hook for losses on the loans ($270B worth).
I'm not at all sure how the FDIC has the legal authority to take on a $270B obligation (realistic worst case scenario is probably less than half that, but that would still be twice the current total of the insurance fund).
Fatwa issued against 'flirtatious' Zardari
29 Sep 2008, 1348 hrs IST,Times Now
NEW DELHI: The leader of the infamous Lal Masjid in Lahore, Pakistan has issued a 'fatwa' against Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari for publicly making indecent gestures towards the American Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin. ( Watch )
The clerics have dubbed this act as 'un-Islamic' and said that Zardari has shamed the nation. The prayer leader of Lal Masjid -- Maulana Abdul Ghafar, clearly said that Zardari's flirtatious remarks to a non-Muslim lady is not only un-Islamic but also unbecoming of a head of state of a Muslim country.
He added that Zardari's body language towards Palin and his deep desire to hug her was shameful for the entire nation.
During his meeting with Palin in New York on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly, Zardari called her "gorgeous" and said "now I know why the whole of America is crazy about you".
And when Zardari was asked to keep shaking hands with Palin for the cameras, he said, "If he's (the aide) insisting, I might hug."
This recent offhand compliment to US vice-presidential hopeful Sarah Palin created quite a flutter not only in the real world but also in the virtual world.
I agree with you: over the longer term almost all of them failed, the country failed.
but Krugman is talking about the present and past two weeks. in that sense what he says about constraints is accurate. Bush is still President. can't get around that because the country re-elected and did not impeach him.
Serf, I read it as Citi assumes the first $42B, FDIC, with backstop by Treasury, assumes the next $200B. There goes the first $250B of the bailout. Smart, SMART move by Citi. First in line, ah la Bear Stearns.
Been watching this debacle on cspan. What is most remarkable is how these chumps are patting each other on the back for taking such a hard look at this bill and deciding to vote for it because they are in a corner.
Maybe. They are in a corner that they put themselves in for refusing to do any meaningful work for the past 5 years and ignoring problems that we elect leaders to keep an eye on.
The only hope for this nation is to throw every incumbent OUT in Nov.
today's debate is all positioning for the elections.
watch the party leaders - they confirm the vote and then give time to their rank and file to speak, not to debate but to make campaign statements for Nov 4.
"Unbelievable. Wall Street and its backers created this mess and now they are going to clean up like bandits. Even Rudy Giuliani is lobbying for his firm to be hired (and paid) to "consult" in the bailout."
MS - not necessarily. With the Medicare D vote (also an abomination, but not of this scale) the Republican leadership held the vote open for hours while they armtwisted 2 guys into switching. This was outrageously against the rules of the House, and caused an uproar at the time. Seems things are basically the same on the other foot, although I think Pelosi isn't technically violating rules. Still, it's the principle, no the technicality, that counts.
C'mon, Steny Hoyer (D) House Majority Leader, get on with the vote...yes, we know, "congress doesn't write blank checks"...the bill says otherwise. Just get on and vote.
Joe Shmoe: "if you know the game is rigged then why bet against the riggers?"
That's a good point. However, most of my bets are on my belief that they are not playing the right game. My bets are any "fix" like this will be a short term (6 month) fix. Without giving consumers excessive credit, or raising their wages, we are still in for recession ("consumer driven economy").
in certain circumstances, generally owner occupied principal residence and acquisition debt only not refi (or not cash out refi, have to see the language)...
principal reduction, if it WOULD have been cancellation of debt income, is now not...
it would however lower the basis so the eventual extra gain would be subject to tax if applicable
whether and to what degree this overrides the exclusion amt i cant say for sure
be aware not all cancellation of debt results in cancellation of debt income
surrender in lieu of foreclosure, for example, on pure nonrecourse debt is a deemed sale for the amount of the debt, which may produce a gain, and so is not cancellation of debt income to begin with
Gen'l Butler was a hero in his later life, c 1930s, when he admitted that he had been "a hit-man for capitalism" for his role in invading and occupying various carribbean and central american countries.
Now the US has reaped its reward: Allende's revenge.
Just to add to the clusterfuckedness of this I'm now predicting repubs will renege just enough yeas to let it pass but maximize the appearance that it is the dems fault.
Time to turn off the comment section on your blog. Comment replies have downgraded over the past 2-3 weeks from marginally interesting and somewhat informative to appalling and absolutely ridiculous. Based on the uneducated comments from this blog, I can only imagine the phone calls members of Congress must be receiving. Geesh. Brutal. Just brutal.
There's a big electronic board in the House so everyone can see everyone's votes. And votes can be changed before the vote closes. I suspect the lobbying is intense. When this passes you can be sure we're also paying for it in other pieces of legislation.
uh, i don't think we'll be having a 'caravan of death' ending with an orgy of murder under a sports stadium, but nice try
.....
caravans of death are Kissinger's style. Bush's style is Abu Ghraib.
Allende's revenge will be different. the American economy is being made to "scream" (kissinger's word), but after that the ghost of Allende takes a different path.
IBM opened today at 191.89, up 60%. Then went back down to $115. They are on the "no short list." Who is the PPT? Are you expecting another precip. drop in the DOW at the end of this vote? Watch IBM; largest dollar component on the DOW; only one over $100.
I agree with above. Anyone not pulling a 170+ LSAT or a 700+ GMAT should be banned. All comments should be in the form of Executive Summary and be cleared by a moderator before appearing.
But according to Weasel in Chief Krugman the Dems had to support this piece of shit bill because they couldn't afford the political fallout of going alone.
So now they have both a shit bill and are going to get all the blame for it. Tyical cowardly politics. Thanks Krugman.
The wastobe land, a lottuse land, a luctuous land,
Emeraldilluim, the peasant pastured, in which by the fourth commandment
with promise his days apostolic were to be long by the abundant
mercy of Him Which Thundereth From On High, murmured,
would rise against him with all which in them were,
franchisables and inhabitands, astea as agora, helotsphilots, do him hurt,
poor jink, ghostly following bodily, as were he made a curse for
them, the corruptible lay quick, all saints of incorruption-of-an
holy nation, the common or ere-in-garden castaway, in red
resurrection to condemn so they might convince him, first
pharoah, Humpheres Cheops Exarchas, of their proper sins.
Business bred to speak with a stiff upper lip to all men and most
occasions the Man we wot of took little short of fighting chances but
for all that he or his or his care were subjected to the horrors of
the premier terror of Errorland. (perorhaps!)
Forget the interim counts. Everyone can change their votes up until voting is closed. Republicans could all change their votes with 10 seconds left, just to leave Pelosi holding the bag.
It ain't over till it's over.
And Nemo--not every vote passes. Given the time pressures, I think the leadership scheduled it last night hoping they had the votes, not sure of it. And you could even make a double-reverse-political argument that the leadership actually wants it to fail. So I don't think it's a given that because there's a vote, it will pass.
Thank you for your form reply to my previous letter.
I realize that the sentate will be taking this bill up in two days after it (narowly) passes the House.
Quite frankly, I am mortified that any memeber of the Democratic (or Republican) Party could support this bill in its current incarnation.
The negotiations between the House and Senate leaders have created a bill which is basically the original 3 page Paulson travesty, plus 107 pages of watered down attempts to provide political cover. Along with the horrendous inclusion of the right to suspend mark-to-market accounting rules, I can only conclude that either a.) legislators have not read this bill or b.) they do not care enough about what they have read (and soon will have wrought).
The Democratic Party's initiative to limit executive pay in this bill is so watered down that it will never actually work or be instituted. The taxpayer right to warrants on equity will never be exercised. The Treasury power is excessive. The legislation is capricious and arbitrary and would NEVER be passed by a thoughtful body politic in its current form if it was carefully analyzed.
I can only conclude that panic has overtaken our economy, your party, your vote, and our system of government.
Your vote yes on this bailout, or rescue package, or whatever semantic term you prefer, will result in a no vote for you and your party from my hands from now until living breath leaves my body.
Bush is going to say "I told you so" for the rest of his time now. This no and the resulting economy failure (which would have happened anyway) is his bailout.
Nay
Sickening.
Firsty?
The confrence call to SIFMA last night seemed to be quite a different pitch than we are seeing on the floor today.
Thank you, CR.
and the winner is.......
This is "debate"--votes are already counted. This is just grandstanding.
Not one of them has given an adequate explanation for why now and why this plan.
Bachus said, "We don't know the cost of doing nothing."
Trouble is, they also don't know the cost of passing this bill. Nobody does.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
YouTube - darth vader says NOOooOOOoooOOOooo
I want a "being first" bailout. I'm never First. The is blogmarket manipulation at its worst.
People, commence filling this thread with hundreds and hundreds of comments that no one will read. If it makes you feel better...
Correction "This" not "the"
Could somebody do me a favor?
The next time one of these fools uses "Wall Street" and "Main Street" in the same sentence, please shoot them?
Only 6 minutes left
Nemo: Me Me!! Waves hand
Krugman writes
Bailout questions answered - Paul Krugman Blog - NYTimes.com
Shouldnt Dems have tossed the whole Paulson approach out the window and done something completely different? . . .
putting myself in Barney Frank or Nancy Pelosis shoes, Id look at it this way: the Democrats could start over, with a bailout plan that is, say, centered on purchases of preferred stock and takeovers of failing firms basically, a plan clearly focused on recapitalizing the financial sector, with nationalization where necessary. Thats what the plan should have looked like.
Maybe such a plan would have passed Congress; and maybe, just maybe Bush would have signed on; Paulson is certainly desperate for a deal.
But such a plan would have had next to no Republican votes and the Republicans would have demagogued against it full tilt. And the Democratic leadership cannot, cannot, be seen to have sole ownership of this stuff.
So that, I think, is why it had to be done this way. I dont like it, and I dont like the plan, but I see the constraints under which Dodd, Frank, Pelosi, and Reid were operating.
I agree, except that I think Bush/Paulson never would have agreed to such a Dem bill and, even if they agreed they couldn't implement it for lack of skill and lack of political capital.
Can I haz bailouts and cheezburgers next?
Puleeeeze?
Or no votes for congresscritters.
Someday this war's gonna end...
Jeff Flake for Speaker in 2009!
YouTube - Congressman Jeff Flake Opposes Bailout
Was the Simpson's character Barney modeled after Barney Franks?
s0mebody writes:
People, commence filling this thread with hundreds and hundreds of comments that no one will read. If it makes you feel better...
What would really make me feel better is either illegal, immoral or bad for my health.
So I just type...
Pelosi, Frank, Boehner, Blunt.
VOTE THEM OUT
Hey Barney,
YouTube - Shocking Video Unearthed Democrats in their own words Covering up the Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac Scam that caused our Economic Crisis
I read somewhere that a piece of the Bill could be interpreted to mean that if anyone has their principal reduced they won't be taxed for it.
Can anyone elaborate, or is that just not in there?
Is Barney saying Middle Class = Poor People?
When has Pelosi NOT done what the Bush administration wants? There is only one party.
I agree, except that I think Bush/Paulson never would have agreed to such a Dem bill and, even if they agreed they couldn't implement it for lack of skill and lack of political capital.
If it's the goddamn emergency they say it is, then they'll sign it even if it doesn't help Hank's buddies on WS. History is a harsh judge.
And if they don't sign it, then I doubt it needs bailing.
I thought Boehner was going to vote against?
Was it , what, it seems 10 years ago everyone was worrying about the monoline insurers. Today that seems like fawns gamboling through a meadow compared to today's zombie attacks. CR has done so much to make us think, I think Edmund Gosse had it right:
And now on viewless wings elate
I speed my visionary flight
O'er bosky glen, and heather-mantled height;
Be thou my Guide, my Teacher, and inspire
My heart with such poetic fire,
That ever where my else-unheeded voice
Shall echo through the land, all men may know
That I have been with thee, and may rejoice,
And feel their weary heats with hope and gladness glow.
All these congressmen seem very festive!
senate is debating this right now on cspan 2, will pass. the vote count says so according to Leahy.
Was Wachovia "acquired" in a similar manner as WaMu, or did Citigroup actually have to assume the liabilities and respect the bond-holders?
this dollar bounce is pretty funny. mother of all dead cats...
It's a glorious day for November's opposition candidates. Bipartisan joy.
WILSHIRE 5000 -500 does that help?
"...but I see the constraints under which Dodd, Frank, Pelosi, and Reid were operating"
Granted. But there is such a thing as foresight, as anticipating paths you might need to take. In fairness, Paulson was the one most blind to the issue, but Congress must share.
The lack of planning on their part is now an emergency on out part - just like the old slogan.
Just say, are you going vote for?
Anyone have an idea when Wachovia will trade?
"The American people are angry."
I'd like to know that too yogi
Not today IMO
Ciao
MS
mykillk --
Was Wachovia "acquired" in a similar manner as WaMu, or did Citigroup actually have to assume the liabilities and respect the bond-holders?
Citi took the whole load, but the FDIC has guaranteed them a floor on the write-downs.
Bush confident bailout bill will stabilize economy- AP
Ok, that's all I need to hear. Judgment for the the defendants, BernankePaulson, for $700 billion dollars
Boehner: serious doubts about whether this bill will pass.
Impassioned plea for "yes" vote.
He hates it, understands why everyone else hates it.
JP writes:
If it's the goddamn emergency they say it is, then they'll sign it even if it doesn't help Hank's buddies on WS. History is a harsh judge.
....
history will be a harsh judge, very soon, today even.
but there are lots of reps who today said the crisis is real and needs prompt action, but they won't vote for this bill.
so Bush/Paulson would do the same with a Dem sponsored bill based on the Roubini Plan (what I want!!). Bush/Paulson would say no, Congress couldn't override the Bush veto, and if congress did override or Bush chickened out then Bush/Paulson could not execute it.
"I'm angry that I was part of a Ponzi scheme and didn't want to admit it to myself. Now let's keep it going"
OMG. The Senate is worry about golfing?
Holy fear mongering.
Iraq flashbacks.
@mykillk: Wachovia was like Bear Sterns. Citi gets the bank, with assets, but the government (FDIC in this case rather than the Fed) is on the hook for losses on the loans ($270B worth).
I'm not at all sure how the FDIC has the legal authority to take on a $270B obligation (realistic worst case scenario is probably less than half that, but that would still be twice the current total of the insurance fund).
Boehner is Blur fan? Boys and Girls?
Passing....market already reacting..
Boehner for it..
So much for conscience.
Effing sell-out
China's swings too much power here.
Ciao
MS
I sense 666 visitors online. Satanson is lurking.
OT but much more important:
Fatwa issued against 'flirtatious' Zardari
29 Sep 2008, 1348 hrs IST,Times Now
NEW DELHI: The leader of the infamous Lal Masjid in Lahore, Pakistan has issued a 'fatwa' against Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari for publicly making indecent gestures towards the American Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin. ( Watch )
The clerics have dubbed this act as 'un-Islamic' and said that Zardari has shamed the nation. The prayer leader of Lal Masjid -- Maulana Abdul Ghafar, clearly said that Zardari's flirtatious remarks to a non-Muslim lady is not only un-Islamic but also unbecoming of a head of state of a Muslim country.
He added that Zardari's body language towards Palin and his deep desire to hug her was shameful for the entire nation.
During his meeting with Palin in New York on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly, Zardari called her "gorgeous" and said "now I know why the whole of America is crazy about you".
And when Zardari was asked to keep shaking hands with Palin for the cameras, he said, "If he's (the aide) insisting, I might hug."
This recent offhand compliment to US vice-presidential hopeful Sarah Palin created quite a flutter not only in the real world but also in the virtual world.
Let's separate Boehner from his seat.
When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another ...
Can't we all just get along?
This Is Utter Fucking BULLSHIT
Wally
I agree with you: over the longer term almost all of them failed, the country failed.
but Krugman is talking about the present and past two weeks. in that sense what he says about constraints is accurate. Bush is still President. can't get around that because the country re-elected and did not impeach him.
Nay. This stinks. There are simpler, fairer, quicker, more certain ways to deal with this. Inject very senior capital with deferred claims.
boehner said this was a crap sandwich, but he was going to vote for it reagardless- " if your conscience allows it"
I'm serious. If this thing passes, there will be no bounce. Then what?
"rep. Boehner: Passage of bailout in 'serious doubt'"
yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
More debt to soak up the bad debt. Then will Hu buy even more debt?
Who pays Hu?
they dont have the votes...otherwise they would have already called for it
"Was the Simpson's character Barney modeled after Barney Franks?"
Yes, also Jabba the Hutt.
Send a message. Vote out both parties' leadership.
"protect us" should mean protect us from usurpation of power...not from natural market downturns...steny you just don't get it.
Vote was scheduled for 1:00 pm (pushed back from earlier times)
It is now 1:20
Bill is in trouble
Serf, I read it as Citi assumes the first $42B, FDIC, with backstop by Treasury, assumes the next $200B. There goes the first $250B of the bailout. Smart, SMART move by Citi. First in line, ah la Bear Stearns.
KEEP CALLING
Congress.org - Get informed, get involved
Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundel.
Who the hell has to take out a loan to buy a $500 washing machine? Idiots
iras, 401k, student loan, blah, blah, blah
Anyone have CNBC live feed url?
Bill fails, world doesn't collapse, govt still able to take action, market pops.
Bill passes, credit still tight, no more govt actions possible, market collapses.
NEVER SEEN SUCH MORONS IN MY LIFETIME
If it gets delayed any further then it will not pass.
Tee times are being canceled as we speak.
Ciao
MS
Hoyer equates taking out a loan to buy an appliance with sending a child to college.
Lord knows what will happen to the country if neither of those is possible because credit is unavailable.
CRVIX has dilated to 705. Expect a virgin birth soon.
Vote was scheduled for 1:00 pm (pushed back from earlier times)
It better pass, cuz there's no circuit breakers as we get later in the day.
Been watching this debacle on cspan. What is most remarkable is how these chumps are patting each other on the back for taking such a hard look at this bill and deciding to vote for it because they are in a corner.
Maybe. They are in a corner that they put themselves in for refusing to do any meaningful work for the past 5 years and ignoring problems that we elect leaders to keep an eye on.
The only hope for this nation is to throw every incumbent OUT in Nov.
these guys are just waiting for the sermons to be over so they can take communion then get to their fancy restaurants to celebrate.
the vote was settled yesterday.
today's debate is all positioning for the elections.
watch the party leaders - they confirm the vote and then give time to their rank and file to speak, not to debate but to make campaign statements for Nov 4.
They are doing it for us - the little people.
CRVIX has dilated to 705. Expect a virgin birth soon.
I won't even type what I expect.
Steny hOyer...
did he get 1 minute
or
1 light year ?
Sure I'm all over the place on my predictions however I'm not playing with $700b....
Ciao
MS
Ooh, if the bill FAILS and the market goes up...
What then comrades?
JP writes:
Vote was scheduled for 1:00 pm (pushed back from earlier times)
It better pass, cuz there's no circuit breakers as we get later in the day.
That's fine. Let the Dow correct itself. It's a necessary step.
michael moore:
the rich are staging a coup:
The Rich Are Staging a Coup This Morning ...a message from Michael Moore | MichaelMoore.com
"Unbelievable. Wall Street and its backers created this mess and now they are going to clean up like bandits. Even Rudy Giuliani is lobbying for his firm to be hired (and paid) to "consult" in the bailout."
Lokks like I am going to be spending some cash and time to make sure these losers get booted.
"Lord knows what will happen to the country if neither of those is possible because credit is unavailable."
imagine, everyone learns a nice little lesson about only buying things with money you actually have...
that's a tough one for poltiicians.
concur with earlier poster, they don't have the votes - the only reason no vote has occurred yet - my my my...
1 min??
Oh my holy maude, Hoyer is quoting Spiro Agnew on behalf of the bill...
MS - not necessarily. With the Medicare D vote (also an abomination, but not of this scale) the Republican leadership held the vote open for hours while they armtwisted 2 guys into switching. This was outrageously against the rules of the House, and caused an uproar at the time. Seems things are basically the same on the other foot, although I think Pelosi isn't technically violating rules. Still, it's the principle, no the technicality, that counts.
MoT,
What you said.
STFU Hoyer...get it over with.
NOW.
Ciao
MS
Either I'm smoking cannabis as well, or this is the longest minute ever
1 minute
Senate vote is now Wednesday night.
HOYER is BLOODY DRUNK
incoherent talk
Propose new bailout plan that gives underwater homeowners a 1-minute grace period on repayment.
THis is a complete reward for wall street!!
Good thing he didn't get 10 minutes, we'd be up all night...
"Anything that can't go on forever, won't."
Obviously that was written by someone who never observed congress in action.
"With the Medicare D vote..."
that and powell's trailer-of-doom were the two defining moments of the gop power zenith 2002-2006 in my mind.
C'mon, Steny Hoyer (D) House Majority Leader, get on with the vote...yes, we know, "congress doesn't write blank checks"...the bill says otherwise. Just get on and vote.
"doing our best to forestall"
says it all
merciless writes:
Oh my holy maude, Hoyer is quoting Spiro Agnew on behalf of the bill...
We are so fucking dead. This is "it."
FE-
I recall that. It must be close and the same thing going on. Football analogies, Agnew, real wrath of god type stuff.
How long is one minute?
Ciao
MS
if you know the game is rigged then why bet against the riggers?
Was this guy a baptist preacher?
Can we now play the SIFMA conference call on the floor before the vote?
Phase 1: Get the banks lending
Phase 2:???
Phase 3: Full employment, college, new cars for all
So many underpants gnomes.
I'm Not Voting In November.
Screw It. None Of Them Get My Vote This Year.
Hoyer is stretching...must be some arm-twisting going on.
Now a 1-party system.
Any opinions on FITB Nov 2.50 puts @ .50? Worth a flyer?
market moving up to sell into the perceived rally when this passes
The people by ovewhelming majority have asked us to act.
On your knees, Hoyer!
VOTE ON!
Up For A Vote Now
Finally!
I yield back the balance of my time - WTF.
Hah. Almost did a voice vote.
Vote is underway
3 hour debate
now 3 minutes to vote
drama! fifteen minutes electronic vote called.
Joe Shmoe: "if you know the game is rigged then why bet against the riggers?"
That's a good point. However, most of my bets are on my belief that they are not playing the right game. My bets are any "fix" like this will be a short term (6 month) fix. Without giving consumers excessive credit, or raising their wages, we are still in for recession ("consumer driven economy").
How about quoting Smedley Butler you freaking Benedict Arnold motherf*ckers?
15 minutes to vote
Is the acting speaker wearing a knife on her jacket?
Arturo Ui-
Brechtian Moment.
Someday this war's gonna end...
May God have mercy on their souls, and may the electorate turn them out, every one who supports this...
There is no way this market was down because they thought it wouldn't pass....no way.
Aleister Perdurabo writes:
I yield back the balance of my time - WTF.
Aleister Perdurabo | 09.29.08 - 1:33 pm
HOYER IS A SENILE AHOLE
how many had to rise to get a vote?
in certain circumstances, generally owner occupied principal residence and acquisition debt only not refi (or not cash out refi, have to see the language)...
principal reduction, if it WOULD have been cancellation of debt income, is now not...
it would however lower the basis so the eventual extra gain would be subject to tax if applicable
whether and to what degree this overrides the exclusion amt i cant say for sure
be aware not all cancellation of debt results in cancellation of debt income
surrender in lieu of foreclosure, for example, on pure nonrecourse debt is a deemed sale for the amount of the debt, which may produce a gain, and so is not cancellation of debt income to begin with
Can someone post a list of yays so we can start working to vote them out?
VOTE NO
i can tell when the vote is final by watching the goldman ticker..
I will go on record.
I want this to pass.
It is the last major action that can take place... the rest is free fall.
Enjoy the ride.
oh.no.she.didn't. WTF? That was crazy trying to call it passed, wtf?
THis bill is nothing but a life raft to the connected during the coming flood in which we all drow
voting now, by electronic device.
split screen
wall street
U.S house
Cannabis
Gen'l Butler was a hero in his later life, c 1930s, when he admitted that he had been "a hit-man for capitalism" for his role in invading and occupying various carribbean and central american countries.
Now the US has reaped its reward: Allende's revenge.
125-124 with 11 min to go
Just to add to the clusterfuckedness of this I'm now predicting repubs will renege just enough yeas to let it pass but maximize the appearance that it is the dems fault.
Yep, lifeboats for the first class passengers while they tell soothing bullsh!t tales to the folks in steerage...
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2008/index.asp will have a complete roll call shortly after the vote (within a few hours).
this is how they respond? by trying to hide who voted yes or no?
What a nightmare...
As long as my provision that allows UBS to get some of that U.S taxpayer lovin', remains in the bill, I'm on board.
We cannot allow a Swiss based investment bank to fail. That would be unacceptable.
As co chairmen and chief Washington lobbyist for UBS, I strongly support this patriotic plan.
Let the Free Market work!
110 yay
82 nay
currently
Can't read the vote on my tiny screen...
From voice vote it sounded like a pass to me.
"Allende's revenge"
uh, i don't think we'll be having a 'caravan of death' ending with an orgy of murder under a sports stadium, but nice try
109: for 77: against
cnbc CreditMattersBlog.com on Justin.tv
CNBC
GOP heavily stacked against. I thought it wasn't going to a vote without them ?
joe: I was referring to his role in stopping the fascist takeover of the US during FDR.
Of course, we don't dare call it fascism...we call it "The Business Plot."
bom dia deboraski, tudo bem?
fcuk they ALL voted for YES
stupid DEMS
Thanks for the link Fair Economist
BTW: DO NOT GIVE UP. Call your Senators. Go out in the street. Only when the government is afraid of the people can we have true democracy!
I'm now predicting repubs will renege just enough yeas to let it pass but maximize the appearance that it is the dems fault.
That's the way the game is played...
Big bucks big bucks no whammies no whammies
Big Bucks
deboraski aka debora writes:
cnbc CreditMattersBlog.com on Justin.tv
CNBC
Thanks, but it says not broadcasting. Is something wrong on my side?
If they called the vote, then they have the votes. Bill passes.
Market rally, then... ?
If the vote were in the bag, you wouldn't see all those congressmen and women looking up at the same vote tally we're all looking at...
About 35% of Democrats voting against.
Looks like the Republicans are revolting. Also, some Democrats.
CR,
Time to turn off the comment section on your blog. Comment replies have downgraded over the past 2-3 weeks from marginally interesting and somewhat informative to appalling and absolutely ridiculous. Based on the uneducated comments from this blog, I can only imagine the phone calls members of Congress must be receiving. Geesh. Brutal. Just brutal.
118 to 102 nay
The final insult from the Bush administration - and a sorry indictment of our political system.
Thank you sir. May I please have another?
DEMs are weak. They can't help themselves when it comes to spending taxpayer money.
Reload it anony...I'm watching cmbg right now.
bill looks likely yo be killed...
HURRAYYYYYYYYYYY
There's a big electronic board in the House so everyone can see everyone's votes. And votes can be changed before the vote closes. I suspect the lobbying is intense. When this passes you can be sure we're also paying for it in other pieces of legislation.
Bom Dia.
I am watching.
I show 119-109
126 to 123 nay
It's Narrowing
122 114
NAY Are gaining good momentum
super vote this
I cannot believe the (D)'s could be this stupid. If this fails and the (D)'s have a big yea-vote, they are toast.
Played hard.
134-131
GS ticker got depressed there for a minute..
but this is all a charade, i still think. forgone conclusion.
BOHICA
I almost feel pity for those remoras...
If this bill passes, it will be a serious blow against both capitalism and democracy in the U.S.
I wonder how many of the outraged voted for Bush in 2004. I know McCain did...
TIED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tied @134.
5 votes? Am I seeing it right?
They should have some carnival horse race setup for the votes. Nay is now winning.
ay's lead!
The Nay's have to go up by 10%.
KILL 'EM ALL.
LET DOG SORT THEM OUT
YES!!
whatever the outcome so much for bi-partisian agreements.
Like the ponies...neck and neck
Ciao
MS
The American Public votes "NAY"!
904 Visitors
144-142 so far
Rule 80B say's a 1200 point Dow drop before 2PM is a 1 hour freeze., 30 minutes from 2-2:30, only bigger drops cause a ciruit break after 2:30
bgates writes:
"Allende's revenge"
uh, i don't think we'll be having a 'caravan of death' ending with an orgy of murder under a sports stadium, but nice try
.....
caravans of death are Kissinger's style. Bush's style is Abu Ghraib.
Allende's revenge will be different. the American economy is being made to "scream" (kissinger's word), but after that the ghost of Allende takes a different path.
There are exactly same # of D's as R's left to vote.
This won't pass.
To hell with dogs, we need a Conjure feast live on Web cam
IBM opened today at 191.89, up 60%. Then went back down to $115. They are on the "no short list." Who is the PPT? Are you expecting another precip. drop in the DOW at the end of this vote? Watch IBM; largest dollar component on the DOW; only one over $100.
WHO WILL VOTE "PRESENT AND ASHAMED"
Where's the 100 Republican Yea votes? Not gonna happen.
Can you feel it? This is history.
HEAVY ARM TWISTING!
I agree with above. Anyone not pulling a 170+ LSAT or a 700+ GMAT should be banned. All comments should be in the form of Executive Summary and be cleared by a moderator before appearing.
Asswipe.
Vote Your Fucking Conscience Democrats!!
What, we have a Congress now? when did this happen?
they precounted yesterday--they only have to tie right
156 to 151 nay
Interesting Times,
Yes, it is.
Democrats up to 37% Opposed!!
ailbiter!
But according to Weasel in Chief Krugman the Dems had to support this piece of shit bill because they couldn't afford the political fallout of going alone.
So now they have both a shit bill and are going to get all the blame for it. Tyical cowardly politics. Thanks Krugman.
I cannot believe the (D)'s could be this stupid. If this fails and the (D)'s have a big yea-vote, they are toast.
It's worse for the Yes voters if it passes. If it fails, some opposition will be directed to other causes.
The wastobe land, a lottuse land, a luctuous land,
Emeraldilluim, the peasant pastured, in which by the fourth commandment
with promise his days apostolic were to be long by the abundant
mercy of Him Which Thundereth From On High, murmured,
would rise against him with all which in them were,
franchisables and inhabitands, astea as agora, helotsphilots, do him hurt,
poor jink, ghostly following bodily, as were he made a curse for
them, the corruptible lay quick, all saints of incorruption-of-an
holy nation, the common or ere-in-garden castaway, in red
resurrection to condemn so they might convince him, first
pharoah, Humpheres Cheops Exarchas, of their proper sins.
Business bred to speak with a stiff upper lip to all men and most
occasions the Man we wot of took little short of fighting chances but
for all that he or his or his care were subjected to the horrors of
the premier terror of Errorland. (perorhaps!)
this is better than playoff basketball
Alright! Alright! You can have the bridge and highway reconstruction, just vote yes!
Forget the interim counts. Everyone can change their votes up until voting is closed. Republicans could all change their votes with 10 seconds left, just to leave Pelosi holding the bag.
It ain't over till it's over.
And Nemo--not every vote passes. Given the time pressures, I think the leadership scheduled it last night hoping they had the votes, not sure of it. And you could even make a double-reverse-political argument that the leadership actually wants it to fail. So I don't think it's a given that because there's a vote, it will pass.
First we count the votes, then we have the election.
Even if it doesn't pass, it will next week, after they "amend" it.
remaining Dems better vote Nay at this point.
NAY! NAY! NAY! NAY! NAY! NAY!
because i have to do something
Thank you for your form reply to my previous letter.
I realize that the sentate will be taking this bill up in two days after it (narowly) passes the House.
Quite frankly, I am mortified that any memeber of the Democratic (or Republican) Party could support this bill in its current incarnation.
The negotiations between the House and Senate leaders have created a bill which is basically the original 3 page Paulson travesty, plus 107 pages of watered down attempts to provide political cover. Along with the horrendous inclusion of the right to suspend mark-to-market accounting rules, I can only conclude that either a.) legislators have not read this bill or b.) they do not care enough about what they have read (and soon will have wrought).
The Democratic Party's initiative to limit executive pay in this bill is so watered down that it will never actually work or be instituted. The taxpayer right to warrants on equity will never be exercised. The Treasury power is excessive. The legislation is capricious and arbitrary and would NEVER be passed by a thoughtful body politic in its current form if it was carefully analyzed.
I can only conclude that panic has overtaken our economy, your party, your vote, and our system of government.
Your vote yes on this bailout, or rescue package, or whatever semantic term you prefer, will result in a no vote for you and your party from my hands from now until living breath leaves my body.
162:168
2 minutes!!!!
Tied @ 161-161
Need a do over!
Nays up by 4 with 2 mins remaining?
sent it to feinstei
you guys are getting misdirected by the magic trick on display, the thing was planned way before, the outcome was known. (of course it will pass).
163 to 167 nay
2 minute bell
Is this possible?
WOW!
167 No
163 Yes
Then again, I could be wrong.
I can't believe what I'm seeing... the nays might almost have it!
The european markets already priced in the passage this morning
still more nays.. Wow
CLIFFHANGER
100 GOP is IMPOSSIBLE NOW!
DOA my friends. market reacting
Commodities selling.....sell programs warming up.
Ciao
MS
Nay up by 9!!!!
Hurry, let's take a knee and run the clock out.
OMG less the one minute left and vote is 170 180
ain't gonna happen, folks
What do they do for Tinkerbell in Peter Pan? Everyone, close your eyes, clap your hands and say you believe in fairies!
All Incumbents Out
bearly: they can switch until it closes
Emperor Bush will pronounce it passed. Congress is irrelevant.
lot of dem votes left to pass this
Remaining Democrats Can't Allow This To Pass!
177:187 yes:no
GS ticker says nay.
OMG
178 to 191 nay
less than a minute
fail!
How many left to vote?
Dewey beats Truman!
Down goes Fraziah!!!
Nays it is 201 to 185
Electronic Vote?
shout out to satellite radio listeners on cnbc
please fail
Better than football!!!!
Having a heart attack here...
Nice bloomberg headline, Fed Injects an additional 630Billion...at some point the botox doesn't work anymore...
So much for the afterglow !
186:201
Didn't pass..... OMG
Bush is going to say "I told you so" for the rest of his time now. This no and the resulting economy failure (which would have happened anyway) is his bailout.
What's it say? What's it say?!
188-204 down with the bailout
Hmm, I guess the speaker was wrong when she said the "yeas" had it.
failed
UBS needs a couple of three point shots here. Call a time out!
Down By 16 Votes Now
It didn't pass OMG
I pooped a little bit with one minute to go. I'm just going to wait to fix it.
Sell
Sell
sell
sell everything. Liquidate portfolio.
Market About To Crash
Ok now what is the crackhead Mr. Market going to do now that he got cut off?
How come the votes are still coming in after time ran out?
DOW crashing....YES!!!
DOW is WRECKING
189:210
jesus, DOW!!!
circuits!
Market is crashing OMG
History in the making...
DOW DOWN 500!
I sharted!
Democrats are going to lose the election!!!!!
Look at markets reaction.
FRE down to 2.03
total fail on bill. whoa.
189 to 208 nay
wait, time is up and it's still calculating. weird
NO SHIT!
sell programs kicking in with 'vigor'
Ciao
MS