I hope this thing passes. Otherwise how are we going to keep this system of corporate slavery running smoothly? I need to roll some major commercial paper over soon to keep my plantation a going concern.
It's essentially the same bill, which rewards bondbuyers for having overextended credit. EARTH TO PAULSON: those that took the greatest risk deserve to be written down. Instead the government is making things worse.
You guys don't know what you are talking about! If this bill doesn't pass there will be severe economic consequences of impending doom falling into the abyss!
Can someone explain to me why we don't have an "anti-bailout" candidate running for President? Is there anyone with the money and ability to do a 1 month blitz into the election and freakin' blow these 2 joker-fraud-ster losers out of the water?
I can't decide if the bailout is a good idea or not. I tend to think not but Glenn Beck is mocking the Democrats for not passing it. Something about if the Democrats were such a good party, they would have passed the bill and saved the economy. Or not, he seemed confused which confuses me.
I'm not sure it'll pass in the House. I'd bet those folks got an earfull when they went home. Both Dems and Repubs. If I were up for re-election this time (all the House), I'd think twice before voting for it (like, better have another job lined up).
Also, FWIW Rush (he's a force whether most like it or not big-time in the rural areas) and his friends are pushing hard against the bill.
I have been a very very bad bank this year. But for christmas I want all the presents rounded up from all the meaningless little boys and girls. Then i can play with them some more like a cat with a mouse. Oghh santy hank your the greeeeaattteest
"Is there anyone with the money and ability to do a 1 month blitz into the election and freakin' blow these 2 joker-fraud-ster losers out of the water?"
The Paulson deal is an open ended bailout with no limitation on outstanding debt -- and no contract as to when the cash will be re-payed. Paulson does not give a time as to when this debt will be re-paid by wall street! Someone show me the date that this loan is due, like Chrysler!
I like how the House is limiting e-mail. Maybe they will also shut down the phones because the phone calls are overwhelming the lines. Or better yet, they can say "our phone was disconnected because we didn't pay the phone bill because we couldn't get our own bailout money".
This whole fiasco has only strengthened my resolve to vote non-incumbents or third parties only.
Fuzzy on the details, but there's the "five year clause" that says the sitting president shall report to Congress how those who borrowed will make up any losses suffered by the gvmnt.
As the Treasury's proposal is now structured, we taxpayers won't lose simply a few billion, we will lose much more. Those foul mortgage-backed securities are losing value by the day. Further, there is little if any chance of recovering the loss from the financial sector. (As ignorant as those in the financial sector can sometimes be, government is of course worse.) Granted, on the positive side, stretch limousines will return to Wall Street. There will be limo parades and limo races, and, for those who don't work for Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley, limo lotteries, so they, too, will have a chance, however remote, to ride to and from the office in a limo. God bless America, and, most of all, Wall Street, where they are looking out for us taxpayers.
Fuzzy on the details, but there's the "five year clause" that says the sitting president shall report to Congress how those who borrowed will make up any losses suffered by the gvmnt.
picosec | 09.30.08 - 9:25 pm | #
What was the penalty or fine if Chrysler didn't repay the loan??? Huh, huh... punk??
How long does a CDO or MBS or ABS live? Are these derivatives like 30 year mortgages? What is the cash flow from these securities and the cash flow? Why will these securities produce revenue for taxpayers in 5 years or less??
Could the immediate outcome of this vote be that the Senate passes the bill, passes the baton to the House, who then say it will take until after the election to pass it? This way the markets have some 'hope' that the bill will pass without the house-members putting themselves in jeopordy for the election. Thoughts?
Repost from the Crypt. Your will is my command, your holiness:
Pelosi: 'Congress will work its will'
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has just released a very cautious statement on the Senate's decision to go first on the bailout, saying little about Harry Reid's decision beyond "Congress will work its will."
Her full statement:
"Ever since yesterday's vote, House leaders have been in frequent communication with each other and the White House to find a plan that can win strong bipartisan approval in the House Many Members have offered ideas to modify the emergency bill narrowly defeated yesterday, and we are discussing those recommendations.
"The Senate has made a decision about how to proceed and what can pass that body. The Senate will vote tomorrow night and the Congress will work its will.
"House Democrats remain strongly committed to a comprehensive bill that stabilizes the financial markets, restores confidence, and protects taxpayers, and we hope Congress can agree on legislation in the very near future."
CR-
We would appreciate if you removed any comments derogatory to any religious belief. We come to this blog to discuss economic issues and sometimes get off topic but this needs to stop, now.
This bailout bill allows any foreign company to sell any bad debt to the US govt, EVEN IF THE ASSETS WERE NOT ORIGINATED IN THE US. We are going to be covering bad office towers in Shanghai, failed gold mines in South Africa, EVERY BAD DEBT IN THE ENTIRE WORLD! See the CNBC video and spread it around.
The main reason why the vote is held after sundown is because they can't wait until Friday, and they want to keep it off the Nightly News and out of the Morning Paper
Jay Inslee just got back to me. He voted "Nay" but he's loaded his email in terms that lead me to believe he can be bought with a few consessions... like BK cramdowns and affordable housing programs.
This is so five threads ago, but can I ask you all - if we got together and offered a penny a pop for these instruments that the banks allege there is no market for, won't we be creating a market? And then won't they have to stop setting a price based on future value?
I have a fantasy of us, and perhaps third-grade classrooms everywhere, purchasing huge stakes in citi, hsbc, oh, you name it.
To answer Dumb Rube, who asked:
How long does a CDO or MBS or ABS live?
First of all terminology. An ABS is supported by cashflow, not real estate. It lives however long the expected cashflow lives. An MBS can live as long as 30 or even 40 years, according to the underlying collateral, but in real life it's less barring defaults/liquidations. And a CDO is usually timed to demise soon after the repurchase clause on the underlying assets expires, i.e five years.
The main reason why the vote is held after sundown is because they can't wait until Friday, and they want to keep it off the Nightly News and out of the Morning Paper
EvilHenryPaulson | 09.30.08 - 9:41 pm | #
I dunno, just seems like this ensures that it will be on prime-time TV. Might be CSPAN's highest viewership ever.
You know that carf loan I got? Well i went out and looked at the ride again and it just aint worth the 30K I mean who would buy it now with credit so tight so I tell ya I'm marking it to , say, 3000K...... TYIA.
Senate is trying to force the House to pass. Right and left wings of the House won't like this. A comment was made yesterday by a House member regarding this possibility that bills originate in the house, that's the way things are done
There are more ornaments on the Senate bill than on the christmas tree in Rockefeller Center. Just like in the House vote, either both parties vote for it, or it goes down in flames.
I dunno, just seems like this ensures that it will be on prime-time TV. Might be CSPAN's highest viewership ever.
Citizen Scotto | 09.30.08 - 9:45 pm | #
On a night with 90210 in addition to CSIx5/Law&Orderx3, you are the one underestimating the American consumer now
On a night with 90210 in addition to CSIx5/Law&Orderx3, you are the one underestimating the American consumer now
EvilHenryPaulson | 09.30.08 - 9:54 pm | #
It's all about "America's Got Talent." That's what will be on here at Castile Scotto
Rube - the expectation is that in five years the market will have recovered and buyers will pay more for the bonds. This presupposes that the current low market prices for them are due to hysteria or lack of liquidity.
Hey all you ultra touchy assholes, there are 13 senators and 30 representatives who are Jewish, which means they are 8% of both houses.
So are we going suspend important legislative business for other religious holidays? Because if we are, please don't forget:
* 1
o Eid al Fitr * **- Ramadan ends - Islam
* 4
o St Francis Day - Catholic Chrisian
* 9
o Yom Kippur * - Jewish
* 9
o Dusera ** - Hindu
* 13
o Thanksgiving - Interfaith - Canada
* 14-20
o Sukkot * - Jewish
* 20
o Birth of the B'ab * - Baha'i
o Installation of Scriptures as Guru Granth - Sikh
* 21
o Shemini Atzeret * - Jewish
* 22
o Simchat Torah * - Jewish
* 26
o Reformation Day - Protestant Christian
* 28
o Milvian Bridge Day - Christian
o Diwali - Deepavali ** - Hindu - Sikh - Jain
* 31
o All Hallows Eve - Christia
CSPAN showing foreign media coverage of this US fiasco
Anonymous | 09.30.08 - 9:54 pm |
Summary of foreign coverage. How could they be so foolish, the whole credit crisis is their fault. They would be crazy not to spend $700bn after the profits they derived and considering they spend $1tn on Defence Department + wards annually.
It will be very hard for a coordinated/global bailout considering how low respect for the America the country is running -- well at least until the ECB realizes the regulation they overlooked is coming back to bite them
Here is section 112 of the bill. Decide fore yourself if this gives Hank a blank check for any foreign assets.
SEC. 112. COORDINATION WITH FOREIGN AUTHORITIES
4 AND CENTRAL BANKS.
5 The Secretary shall coordinate, as appropriate, with
6 foreign financial authorities and central banks to work to7
ward the establishment of similar programs by such au8
thorities and central banks. To the extent that such for9
eign financial authorities or banks hold troubled assets as
10 a result of extending financing to financial institutions
11 that have failed or defaulted on such financing, such trou12
bled assets qualify for purchase under section 101.
Passthekleenex writes:
So who gets the collective finger point when the bill passes and the economy tanks anyway?
Passthekleenex
well no one could have known that would happen, like no one could have known Osama would send people to crash airplanes despite the PDB memo that was titled "Bin Laden determined to strike in the US."
This vote is nonsense, it should NEVER pass. its a bailout for the money men on the basis that, without it credit can't flow again. what I don't understand is how credit can ever flow when private sector debt is at 350% of GDP. Think about it- how can credit grow when its already 3 and a half times GDP. At a 5% interest rate, the cost of Interest only of this is 15% of GDP. So to grow credit to the non-financial sector, debt has to grow at 15% of GDP. I know the 350% includes the financial sector, but that's the banks so they have to pay their interest too before they can gro debt. ITS IMPOSSIBLE!!!
This is a giant fraud. The whole game is to transfer as much of the losses as possible to the taxpayer and then let it collapse anyway!!! The game is to tie down the next administration and get the taxpayer on the hook as much as possible. Anyone who votes for this is a traitor to the US
You know when you're playing Risk and you are at the end game and you realize that the other guy's going to get a crapload of armies on his next turn and if he gets a next turn you're done. So you go for broke on the attack and it becomes clear after you've lost a few battles that you won't have enough juice to take over the world but you just keep on going because it seems like you have no alternatives and if you're going to go down you might as well go down in flames. And pretty soon you've got a whole pile of countries with one army on them and you've run out of attackers and your opponent is sitting there with a couple of countries and a gazillion armies just waiting for you to run out of steam.......
I thought that was separation of church and state. Why is congress closing down for a holiday that only 2% of the population believes in ? I find that really strange. Its also the month of Ramadan, do they also fast for the day until the sunset ?
Wow, the financial markets are melting down and they close shop for 2 days for some obscure religion. Please don't call me anti-semite, these are just the facts. I certainly didn't think that jews controlled America, but wow this makes me think they have a lot more influence than I thought before.
And pretty soon you've got a whole pile of countries with one army on them and you've run out of attackers and your opponent is sitting there with a couple of countries and a gazillion armies just waiting for you to run out of steam.......
Bush just wants this game to be OK until he leaves office.
This is a beautiful, Machivellian coup by the wealthy, powered elite. Get the govt. to step in and buy this crap and a few years from now the taxpayer loss will be huge. They then say "see, we told you. Govt. intervention doesn't work"
Russian markets director says this crisis will hold Russia's GDP to 5% and cause central banks to back off US treasuries
Anonymous | 09.30.08 - 10:01 pm | #
I know the Fed has acted to support other central banks, does anyone know if they have any swaps with the Russians?
I can't decide if the bailout is a good idea or not. I tend to think not but Glenn Beck is mocking the Democrats for not passing it. Something about if the Democrats were such a good party, they would have passed the bill and saved the economy. Or not, he seemed confused which confuses me.
Tonights Glen beck show was excellent. I just finished watching him. I especially liked what he said about what was written in the New York Times nine years ago today about helping less fortunate people buying homes. I will watch him more often!
okay, this has degenerated into "which religious holidays should the gummint honor" so i'm going to head off to try to finish reading phillips' book "bad money" so i can move on tomorrow night to "the trillion dollar meltdown."
The bailout will probably pass this time. It will carry the country through the next one or two months, maybe even through the rest of 2008. Basically, that's all that congress-people are looking for- something that carries them through re-election. After that we will need another bailout, then another, and another, and so forth.
Regarding George Bush, he has done his best to destroy the country. However, even in that he has failed since we are still standing. Look for at least the next 40 years of Democrat control of the country.
I have money in the stock market, so for me personally it would help, but I can't help but think that this is a terrible idea. We are only forstalling a great calamity and making it worse. Hard times are a coming.
This is hilarious : " SEC issued an interpretation of an accounting standard that is likely to make it easier for banks to report smaller losses, or perhaps even profits, when they announce results for the third quarter, which ended Tuesday."
Wave the magic wand and red is black! PRESTO!!! Problem solved.
Good stuff brklyn_renter -- this whole process makes me think that a power grab is under way. I think Hank will find a way to price the "assets" at the optimum level to consolidate banking power with the firms he chooses (GS, MS, BAC, WFC) and do whatever it takes to kill the regional banks. You figure, he already knows the investment bank standalone is dead, so why not figure out the new rules yourself so you can be supreme Skeletor Overlord of the new US banking order? What else could he be doing? This is basically all the guy knows how to do. Compete, and preferably, unfairly.
Correct: Bloomberg will not be presiding over GD2. He decides this weekend he will remain mayor of NYC. Yahoo! 404 - Page Not Found
Although a third term is currently illegal.
If Obama is elected president - even the god may not be able to help us from going bankrupt.
We will have to sell Alaska to Russia and Lousiana to French and move to Liberia!
PS - I am not racist but am agaist a Kenyan American who calls himself African American, has never held a proper job or made a Social Security Contribution from salary check, which was not from government, and most of all a hustler running for president, who claims presidency because he gave a speech!
* Require the Treasury Department to guarantee, at up to 100 percent, bank losses resulting from failed mortgage-backed securities originated prior to the plan's enactment. Such insurance, supporters say, would provide immediate value to the securities and a foundation for which they could then be sold. The Treasury Department would finance that insurance by assessing a premium on outstanding mortgage-backed securities.
* Allow companies to carry back losses arising in tax years ending in 2007, 2008, or 2009 back five years, generating a tax refund and immediate capital
* Allow a "repatriation window" for profits earned by U.S. firms overseas. Such repatriation amounts would not be taxed if invested in distressed debt (as defined by Treasury) for at least one year.
* Allow banks to treat losses on shares of preferred stock in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac as ordinary losses, not as capital losses
* Suspend the capital gains tax rate for two years
* Limit backing of high-risk loans by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac
* Schedule Fannie and Freddie for privatization
* Suspend "mark-to-market" accounting until the SEC can issue new guidelines that will allow firms to mark these assets to their true economic value
* Stabilize the dollar by repealing the Humphrey-Hawkins Full Employment Act, which alternative bailout supporters say diverts the Federal Reserve's attention from long-term price stability to short-term economic growth
* Require the Treasury to write rules prohibiting excessive compensation or golden parachutes to executives of failed companies
* Task the SEC with regular, annual audit reports of entities the federal government has brought under conservatorship or now owns
Alternate Bailout plan being offered in the house. Your thoughts?
Here's the summary Rep DeFazio provided reporters:
No BAILOUTS Act
Bringing Accounting, Increased Liquidity, Oversight and Upholding Taxpayer Security
1) Require the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) to require an economic value standard to measure the capital of financial institutions.
This bill will require SEC to implement a rule to suspend the application of fair value accounting standards to financial institutions, which marks assets to the market value, no matter the conditions of the market. When no meaningful market exists, as is the current market for mortgage backed securities, this standard requires institutions to value assets at fire-sale prices. This creates a capital shortfall on paper. Using the economic value standard as bank examines have traditionally done will immediately correct the capital shortfalls experienced by many institutions.
2) Require the Securities and Exchange Commission to restricting naked short sells permanently
This bill will require SEC to implement a rule that blocks naked selling, selling a stock short without first borrowing the shares or ensuring the shares can be borrowed. Such practices many times harm the companies represented in the sales and hurt their efforts to raise capital. There is no economic value produced by naked short sales, but significant negative effects.
3) Require the Securities and Exchange Commission to restore the up-tick rule permanently.
This bill will require SEC to implement a rule that blocks short sales without an up-tick in the market. On September 19, 2008, the SEC approved a temporary pause of short selling in financial companies "to protect the integrity and quality of the securities market and strengthen investor confidence." This rule prevents market crashes brought on by irrational short term market behavior.
3) Require the Securities and Exchange Commission to restore the up-tick rule permanently.
This bill will require SEC to implement a rule that blocks short sales without an up-tick in the market. On September 19, 2008, the SEC approved a temporary pause of short selling in financial companies "to protect the integrity and quality of the securities market and strengthen investor confidence." This rule prevents market crashes brought on by irrational short term market behavior.
4) "Net Worth Certificate Program"
This bill will require FDIC to implement a net worth certificate program. The FDIC would determine banks with short-term capital needs and the ability to financially recover in the foreseeable future. For those entities that qualify, the FDIC should purchase net worth certificates in these institutions. In exchange, these institutions issue promissory notes to repay the FDIC, counting the amount "borrowed" as capital on their balance sheets. This exchange provides short term capital, with not cash outlay. Interest rates on the certificates and the FDIC notes should be identical so no subsidy is necessary.
Participating banks must be subject to strict oversight by the FDIC including oversight of top executive compensation and if necessary the removal of poor management. Financial records and business plans should be subject to scrutiny while participating in the program.
In 1982, Congress approved a program, known as the Net Worth Certificate Program, that allowed banks and thrifts to apply for immediate capital assistance. From 1982 to 1993, banks with total assets of $40 billion participated in the program. The majority of these banks, 75%, required no further assistance beyond the certificate program.
5) Increase the FDIC Insurance limit from $100,000 to $250,000.
The bill will require the FDIC raise its limit to provide depositors confidence that their money is safe and help eliminate runs on banks which are destabilizing to the industry.
Rosh Hashana & Yom Kippur are the Jewish equivalents to the Christian holidays of Christmas & Easter, in terms of significance.
So all you racist fucks that want to make it seem like some insignificant holiday, should perhaps get a clue, and go back to grade school to learn about the religious history of the world.
it will pass, the groups like NAR and so on that are either out for personal gain at the expense of the country, or have been misled by the money men, are surely dumping pro calls to everyone.
The popular financial media has gone into scaremongering mode: but tomorrow, your company might fold and your pension checks will bounce!
Disgusting.
I don't even have a strong opinion that the bill is totally off base: but I know for sure that those with the most to gain from it are absolutely devoted to avoiding any discussion of alternatives, they want to ram this through very quickly before anyone can point out that credit is moving just fine where default risk is not too high. Every day does not add risk of heart attack to the system, it adds risk of heart attack for those that profited mightily on the way up, as they look at their over-leveraged portfolios.
I agree with that. If you think Bush has messed up, wait till the Magic Muslim gets elected. You can't print enough dough to pay for the stuff he has promised. And maybe his crazy preacher can lead the prayer at the inauguration. God Damn America!!!
All I know is I'm using this rally to dump pretty much anything/everything that ain't nailed down. It's hard to take a market seriously when this kind of stuff is going on. The US market is only slightly more legit than the Pakistani market's move to 'outlaw' declining prices.
FASB, Short selling bans, tier III assets, etc etc etc.. puuhhlleease.
Sometimes libertarian and liberal causes intersect Republican dogma. Be glad.
Saw Kucinich on Rachel Maddow...he was clear, concise on the failures of the original bill and the new, improved bailout. He lauded the repubs like Shelby, Bunning, Kyl and Corker who stood against the White House and their leadership in favor of free market capitalism. We need all the allies we can muster to kill this monster.
Please get on the email and phones and contact your senators to stop this bailout. Schumer's site seems to be flooded already. This is a bailout written by and for the investment banks. They promised to insure mortgage assets that they could not possibly cover even 1% of, yet they have been paying out billions in holiday bonuses over the past several years. Goldman Sachs alone paid out something like 20 billion last Christmas alone in bonuses to under 1000 employees. Stop the greed. Stop it dead. Your voice will make a difference.
PS - I am not racist but am agaist a Kenyan American who calls himself African American, has never held a proper job or made a Social Security Contribution from salary check, which was not from government, and most of all a hustler running for president, who claims presidency because he gave a speech!
Poor and Unemployed | 09.30.08 - 10:17 pm | #
Anytime a statement begins with "I'm not a racist but", it is generally followed by a racist statement. Your post is no exception, nor are you.
Suspend "mark-to-market" accounting until the SEC can issue new guidelines that will allow firms to mark these assets to their true economic value
And what would that be? Zero?
The final bill will be even WORSE than previous versions. Expect it.
Close the book on this country, if this passes, we're done. They're not going to be able to save the economy from the inevitible. This holiday season will be a disaster. They just want to cover their asses on the way out. Bastards. Anyone who votes for this bill, has lost my vote. Regardless of who they are.
@ Comrade SS
I actually became Jewish in the 4th grade. My forth grade teacher would ask if any of us were Jewish because we would be excused for the holiday. I ALWAYS raised my hand.
Worked pretty good til my Dad found out about this a few years later...
Geegee, speak only for yourself. I will not shut up, at least not till Barack Hussein Bin Ladin gets elected. We need higher taxes and more welfare. We need the Magic Muslim.
Already sent out another round of emails. Am amused this took down the HOR system for a while earlier. Who knows, maybe it does more good than we think (fingers crossed).
" I am not racist but am agaist a Kenyan American who calls himself African American"
This is pretty funny, actually.
And why deny you are a racist...why not admit it and be comfortable with yourself. I mean seriously, who cares if you're a racist.
I know! This bill pass failure was an opportunity to really put the screws to lobbyists and force them to cough up blood in ransom with vacation homes and fancy private aircraft trips overseas with hookers
You don't belong here. Go get an education. Frankly your posts are unwelcome, and all you seek to do is to race-bait. It's not going to work, we're a better crowd than that.
YLSP writes:
You guys don't know what you are talking about! If this bill doesn't pass there will be severe economic consequences of impending doom falling into the abyss!
Can someone explain to me why we don't have an "anti-bailout" candidate running for President? Is there anyone with the money and ability to do a 1 month blitz into the election and freakin' blow these 2 joker-fraud-ster losers out of the water?
Or am I going to have to write in Jas Jain?
YLSP | 09.30.08 - 9:19 pm | #
I think you're onto something. I'm writing in Jas.
On a serious note, there is a huge opportunity for a "white horse" candidate. The right person could probably sweep the vote.
Did I miss some sort of tectonic activity that caused Kenya to no longer be part of mainland Africa? Or is just that Stan's knowledge of geography is inversely proportional to his bigotry?
Already sent out another round of emails. Am amused this took down the HOR system for a while earlier. Who knows, maybe it does more good than we think (fingers crossed).
Bond Girl
I've been thinking about sending follow up emails / faxes etc.
(I sent an email, a fax and a phone call to both Cali Senators)
My question is do you think it does anything... I seriously doubt they are actually checking names but still I wonder.
Gone Fishing, I brought up DeFazio's plan on a previous thread. Fair economist said it would work. It doesn't buy toxic assets. It does allow the FDIC to sell warrants that seem to be a kind of loan to a bank. But there is determination of solvency first by the FDIC.
I'm in favor of it, because I'm against the 700 billion dollar purchase of mbs, cds and any other toxic bs and because I want the house to say fu to Paulson.
Poor and Unemployed,
I didn't say I supported Obama, however I can see where things are headed. Think 1932 and FDR.
EngineerJim | 09.30.08 - 10:27 pm | #
That would be the logical sequence since we currently have Herbert Hoover for president. Maybe they'll change the law and Obama can run for a 3rd and 4th term.
I constantly talk to people who claim that Mayor Bloomberg is doing such a fine job. I remind them that he was a lifelong Democrat who switched to get elected. Just an arrogant billionaire opportunist with a huge appetite for power. Paulson, Perot, even Trump used to talk about running, but of course he wasn't really solvent.
I didn't think it would do anything the first time around and was pleasantly surprised. And that was with the media fawning over the bailout then too. Who knows? I doubt they are keeping track of names, their staff probably could care less.
please do not feed the assclowns... i mean bears...
anyhow, good thoughts over the past day on how short selling ban probably drove markets further down yesterday then normal.
any thoughts on how a temp ban on mark to market may affect us down the road? for that matter, any other predictions on adverse effects that may come from these bailout adjustments, other then the obvious?
(I sent an email, a fax and a phone call to both Cali Senators)
My question is do you think it does anything... I seriously doubt they are actually checking names but still I wonder.
What say ye?
........
nades
I think Boxer is our only hope in CA. Any idea where she stands. I fear she will give in.
Feinstein I consider a lost cause. She's heavily invested, if you know what I mean. I don't think 1,000-1 on calls would prevent her from voting for this bill.
I still have hope that Boxer will do the right thing though. She usually listens to the Democratic base, and the base is pretty strongly opposed to this garbage.
FFDIC, will raising the coverage cost the banks a higher insurance premium ?
comraderay | Homepage | 09.30.08 - 10:32 pm | #
Time will tell. Many highly rated banks have not paid a dime in deposit insurance for a decade. This was wrong because they were allowed to participate in high risk lending and other significant risk which should have required some level - even a nominal level of premiums payment towards the FDIC fund. The fund should have been twice its $52B level when this started a year ago. Mistakes happen but his was not due to a mistake. It was the banking lobby lining the pockets of Congress.
This thread is reminding me of how C-Span degenerated from open, intelligent discussion to being dominated by call-in blow hards.
CR has never been partisan, and we only had one obsessive insane pundit who, despite his diatribes, had nothing on the crap I've had to read around the past few days.
Hope Calculated Risk goes to paid service (please)
It doesn't take long to contact them. I think at this point they are just counting the people who contact them, so if you just say something, that increases our statistic. You probably do not need to spend time writing technical explanations.
It may be a lost cause, but it doesn't take that much time and it would be unfortunate not to have done it if it actually did mean anything. Remind them that you vote.
I was also pleasantly surprised that the grass root efforts actually made a difference.
This was my first political move ever. I've never voted, wrote anyone, or really gave a sh*t. (Note I am by no means bragging, I'm rather ashamed, but being a closet libertarian makes it difficult)
So all you racist ***** that want to make it seem like some insignificant holiday, should perhaps get a clue, and go back to grade school to learn about the religious history of the world
i always thought abe told his sons, those jesus freaks will buy anything...
lets think up some story and sell it to them... we'll call it 'the bible'
Credit enima is coming..... writes:
So why do we vote if they do whatever they won't ? Like they know (Congress ) what's best for the USA . We need to reduce spending .
I'm only going to vote on the propositions this time around I think. I was not Thrilled with my choices to begin with, so if I'm ever going to just withhold my vote, might as well be now.
I really don't care much what happens to this country at this point. Let it die.
The Defazio plan is the plan that was used to clean up the Savings and Loan fiasco. That was a good plan then, and a good plan now. What's wrong with it?
Here's what McConnell said earlier about the feedback he's receiving - what bullshit:
Im hearing from towns and municipalities throughout Kentucky that cant find the money to finance new schools and other civic projects, and from farmers and small business owners who are suddenly being told by their banks that a long-term loan is due. Others are being pressured to pay more, or well ahead of schedule. And these are people with good credit.
Im hearing from people like the retired school counselor in Anderson County who said she cant afford to see her small retirement savings vanish. Ive never written to any senator or congressman before now, she wrote. This is so important to our government and its citizens.
One small business owner wrote to me about a company he started in his garage that now employs 100 people. He said that because of the credit crisis, the interest rate hes paying on his building just jumped 400 percent. Speaking on behalf of all the small business owners in his community, he had a simple message: Kentuckians need help now.
And heres what a woman from Central Kentucky wrote to me about the financial rescue plan that the House of Representatives rejected yesterday:
I hope you will not lose sight of the vast numbers of innocent Americans who work tirelessly to create a better future for our children and fellow Americans, who could be financially wrecked by plummeting U.S. and overseas markets.
If the rescue plan fails, this woman added, shes afraid shell have to sell off part of her familys farmland.
Well every time I tried to call Boxer last week her voicemail was full.
"Please enter your passcode. #####
You have thirty-one thousand four hundred eighty-one new messages.
First new message, received yesterday at 4:14 am.
Hi I'm a voter from Long Beach California I say screw the $*#&@ @#@@! they shoud #$@@#$%@ the #$# and @#^@#$$@#$ the $#$%%%n Wall Street Bailout Boondoggle!
Press 7 to delete this message. # Message deleted.
I think trolls are to be ignored, even those who are completely irritating for whatever reason.
Tet Nguyen Dan is an important holiday in Vietnam. It's new year on the lunar calendar. A lot of men died in 1968 as a result of that holiday and related events. Should we then look down upon that particular religion? Of course not.
The First Amendment is not subject to further editing at this stage. It provides:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
We've seen a lot of 'peaceable assembly' and 'petition for redress' on this board over the past couple of weeks. There's a reason the email lines at Congress are jammed.
So it shouldn't be so surprising that a couple other aspects of that same First Amendment like 'free exercise' and 'freedom of speech' might arise from time to time and, apparently, tonight.
Just let it pass. Support or oppose the bailout or rescue as you choose. It's not worth dying for either way.
The First Amendment, however, is one of the very few things that America offers that is worth dying for. All of it.
SIFMA is rallying its troops -- the bailout (their words) is as important, if not more so to everyone but Wall St (aka Main St)
Very interesting though, they are up to the minute on new accounting monkey business SIFMA Released Today Blog
SEC and FASB Publish Guidance on Fair Value in Illiquid Markets
Banking Regulators Propose to Reduce Godwill Deductions from Regulatory Capital
So we've got mark-to-fantasy because you cannot trust the market price, and on top of that sure give yourself another trillion of goodwill and it's as good as a deposit in the bank for reserve requirements
Dunno Scotto, I enjoy reading this blog and occassionally comment but it's pretty ugly tonight. I really hope they don't go to paid service but I understand if you all do. I'll still lurk but I'll miss the banter with people like CSC and yourself. You people are some of the very few that are actually well informed on this topic.
any thoughts on how a temp ban on mark to market may affect us down the road?
I know I'm going to be chomping at the bit to buy stock in companies whose balance sheets are incomprehensible by design. Look how well it worked with Enron!
Comrade Scared Shitless,
I could give 2 pieces of shit for jewish or any other religous holiday. I just don't know why they have to hold up the economy for 2% pf the population like someone stated earlier. So take it up your semite ass.
The Senators from California will note your opinion, but will add enough cinnamon and spice to the bill to make it palatable, and if you reject that gracious treat, you will be marginalized. :^/
I have been coming here for almost 3 years (back when the site was a forest scene) and it goes back and forth between good posting and bad posting...just ignore the posts you dont like.
I do not remember Congress being in recess for Rosh Hashanah (the Jewish New Year) in late September or early October.
Usually there is a recess preceding elections every four years. The Congress was supposed to be in recess for that reason. This saga delayed an already planned vacation period.
Is this the reason for the anti-Semitism expressed on this blog this evening?
Cordially,
Ellen Kimball
(Jewish by birth; Unitarian by choice)
I think we need to be able to distinguish the I cant GET credit people, from the I dont like the TERMS of the credit Im being offered people. My guess is there is an awful lot of the latter that is being misrepresented as the former.
I have an education and Stan is right. Barrack "Osama" Hussein Obama "bin Laden" is a Muslim and he will be sworn in with the Koran. God help us...
If McCain had opposed this bailout instead of renaming it to a rescue, he'd be in the White House for sure.
It's a rescue written by and for the benefit of Goldman Sachs, JPM, and Morgan Stanley, in that order. They insured mortgage assets with 1/20th to 1/40th of the assets needed to cover a complete loss. This is called leverage. Their bets have gone sour, so we get to bail them out by basically buying out the assets that they would otherwise have to cough up.
Question....are they just ignorant, and actually believe it will work? Given the fact most of them probably don't know what the term "economics" even means.
Or do they know the end game is coming, and their intention is to get past the election, and let the system collapse a few months from now?
Anybody see Maria Bartiromo on Hardball? I can't imagine how anybody could watch CNBC with that shrieking banshee on it. That voice. She's like something you want to nail with a tranquilizer gun. I could never been in the same room without hitting her with a chair.
Although, her rat-tat-tat deliver does let you quickly catch up on all the completely bullshit bailout talking points. "No one can get any loans!!!!" she screamed like a wounded dog.
Please vote NO on the $700 billion bailout plan. Please vote to let the free markets work without government intervention. Please vote to protect tax payers and future generations against an unconstitutional redistribution of wealth to private interests. Please find an ALTERNATIVE that can improve the trust that has been lost between Wall Street and investors, depositors and banks and between banks themselves. We dont believe that trust can be purchased by government in an attempt to repair the badly damaged reputations of those who willingly securitized, misrepresented, rated and sold bad investments to clients around the world. Tomorrow, we are counting on your NO vote and will support you every step of the way! God Bless America.
I might suggest contacting not only your
House and Senate members but all the others
as well. Remind them you have a long memory
and money to donate to them, or their opposition,
depending on their vote.
Others are being pressured to pay more, or well ahead of schedule. And these are people with good credit.
He's lyin' through his capped teeth. The Darkness Household has had record, record I tell you, credit card offers the last two weeks. Phone ones even on auto-dialer. What a crock.
It is fantastic. The market just won't wait for the election. Or is it just the classic treasury raid by the thieves when they know they're half out the door? The incumbents can't get October over with fast enough, so the people can actually use leverage. Even if momentum fizzles, some careers are done. I'll go 2-1 that Pelosi is finished as Speaker. $50 tip to CR.
I know I'm going to be chomping at the bit to buy stock in companies whose balance sheets are incomprehensible by design. Look how well it worked with Enron!
--
right, so since it is clear most of those numbers are bull, how will this help get the credit markets moving again? seems silly, seems like $700B to make main street think somethings been done, but if the numbers are still bologna won't we cycle right back into this again?
DK must stand for Don't Know. Do you have anything to contribute, other than anti-Obama racist garbage? Good, then go someplace else. You are henceforth ignored.
If there really is a Depression, it will teach a whole new generation about the perils of debt.
it would be helpful to return to a system of money that was not so abstract. part of today's problem is that 95% of the population doesn't understand the system.
So the bailout was fkd, we have two days of further delay, contention and challenge. Sounds fine to me, as long as it fully identifies the nature of the problem(s) and the response instruments are up to the task(s).
However, we still don't have a theme song!
If CR will let me, I'll be posting some options over the next half hour:
The bit about municipalities is what got me. A lot of new bond deals have been sidelined, but it is not because credit is not available, it is because credit is more expensive. Everyone is waiting for the bailout. So the consideration of a bailout is having the same effect as what the absence of a bailout is supposed to have.
I also like the guy whose bank supposedly recalled a long-term loan. If that is true, that guy nees an attorney.
Haha...DK does not equal Stan, but DK shares an opinion with Stan. DK is also very educated on Islam, and DK knows for a fact that Islam is an intolerant, evil religion. Enough said.
DK is also against the bailout, illegal immigration, H-1B visas, H-2B visas, student visas, anchor babies, amnesty, and high levels of legal immigration. DK is against outsourcing, offshore manufacturing, and the overall theme of Wall Street selling out Main Street to the highest foreign bidder, regardless of the consequences to America.
DK is also an avid fan of Michael Savage, who is easily one of the smartest men in America.
Israel being armed by the US (for attack on Iran?)
US approves 25 F-35 fighter aircraft sale to Israel
DEBKAfile Special Report
September 30, 2008, 11:40 PM (GMT+02:00)
US F-35 can strike air and ground targets
The Pentagons Defense Security Cooperation Agency has approved the $15.2 billion sale of 25 F-35 Strike Fighters for Israel with an option for another 50, saying it is vital to US national security interests to assist Israel develop a strong and ready self-defense capability.
DEBKAfiles military sources report that President George W, Bush, in mid-financial crisis, fully discharged his promise of a defense package for Israeli before he left office. There was no announcement of the date of supply.
Earlier this month, the Pentagon approved up to $330 million in three separate arms deals for Israel and posted its advanced FBX-band radar system to an Israeli Air Force base in the Negev.
Israel is the first foreign nation to receive the up-to-the-minute Lockheed Martin F-35 Strike Fighter, which will replace the older F-16 fighters and enhance its air-to-air and air-to-ground defenses and by virtue of five exceptional features:
An advanced radar for striking ground or air targets long distance while destroying any threat in its immediate environment.
An electro-optical targeting system (EOTS).
The pilots helmet-mounted displays (HMD).
It is the first fighter plane in the world with a communications system linked to satellites.
The capacity for carrying large quantities of ordnance - from joint direct attack munitions to AIM-120 and AIM-132 air-to-air missiles.
The first consignment of 25 F-35s has a conventional take-off and landing (CTOL) configuration, while the next 50 are short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) aircraft. In the event of an armed conflict, the Israel Air Force calculates that its long runways will be in danger of attack by Iran, Syria, Hizballah and Hamas.
The deal was approved after senior Israeli and US officials met in Washington this month and assurances were tendered that sensitive technologies would not be passed to third parties.
Oh for Chrissakes I'm Catholic...attack me ... we like it. Oh yeah...I'm also a Buffalo Bills fan. My boss is asking me if we're lining up for another Super Bowl Loss.
For Fuck's sake. Yeah Wall Street has a lot of Jewish owners. This is a fact. NBA has a lot of black players. This is a fact.
I'm not gonna analyse either on religious/skin color grounds. For Heavens sake...WTF just happened here?
Quote:It's amazing how people will throw their children under a bus because they have 120K in a 401k.
How very accurate...money really is the root of all evil.
My question regarding the FDIC increase to $250,000 is how many people at the median income of $50,000 have that much liquid in a bank> come on now...why is this such a big deal?
"I believe that the Americans have come to realise that they have a responsibility to the rest of the world as well as to themselves," British Prime Minister Gordon Brown told Sky News and BBC television.
"The US must take its responsibilities in this situation, must show statesmanship for the sake of their own companies and for the sake of the world," echoed European Commission spokesman Johannes Laitenberger.
"I believe that the Americans have come to realise that they have a responsibility to the rest of the world as well as to themselves," British Prime Minister Gordon Brown told Sky News and BBC television.
Apparently this guy has never seen fox news (or read this comment thread).
I have an education and Stan is right. Barrack "Osama" Hussein Obama "bin Laden" is a Muslim and he will be sworn in with the Koran. God help us...
Freedom of religion means crap. As an atheist I always knew that but try to get a christian to admit that . . . Watching the christians flounder over this one, which is pure delusion, amuses me no end. You don't want freedom of religion, you want freedom to enforce your religion. Fine, just admit it for once.
As a no-god fearing person, I find all you People of the Book to be the same. Identical. You all loves yourself some good martyrdom and persecution and will manufacture it against all rational sense. It's like crack to you people. So go on fighting amongst yourselves, hating all that your momma and daddy taught you to, but please, just leave the sane among you to live their lives in peace, thanks.
probably tin foil hat territory, but do you think it possible that the phenomenon you describe (waiting for the bailout having the same effect as no bailout) was counted on by some- to encourage the bills eventual passage?
I posted this two threads down. I think the FDIC insurance should be reduced not increased...
"FDIC seeking upgrade from $100k to $250,000 per account insured"
Yeah that'll help. I mean after WaMu FDIC has a negative balance sheet. Where TF are they going to get the money to handle that increase, given that they probably won't be able to increase insurance premiums. (Glances at mirror)...Oh yeah...(grumble)...
Nostrovia,
Comrade Misean
What about reducing deposit insurance from the current $100K to $10K and have diminishing pro-rated pay-outs up to $250K (extend the limit+ add haircuts)? Then add interest rate subsidies (determined by Texas Ratio) from the Fed to the banks for deposits? This way you reduce moral hazard of yield-chasing (parking money in higher-yielding CD's with banks that are more likely to fail), the stronger banks get stronger, and the weaker banks hurry up and fail quicker, making it easier for everybody to figure out where the dead bodies lie?
I think Jas was the one who kicked off the original Grease Monkey/Killfile revolution on CR. Once in a while I bring him back from the dead just to check and make sure I'm still a born and bred dope, but not often.
Does anybody think it's possible that the flood of anti-bailout emails/faxes/calls that originated from this blog might have caused the same $#itheels who paid to flood congress will pro-bailout calls today to pay for a little rascist astroturfing to muddy the waters here tonight? It's weird timing, just sayin'.
Any time things get bad, economically or politically, racism and antisemitism will both troll for converts. Scroll by them, ban them, whatever: they get bored pretty quickly.
It is simply the silly season that comes around every 4 years.
The MSM huzzas one side or the other to get the ratings up so they can be paid. As Jas would say, American Dupes buy into this Democracy shibboleth to the benefit of the banksters.
Panem et circeses. Sports or politics. Your choice.
My question regarding the FDIC increase to $250,000 is how many people at the median income of $50,000 have that much liquid in a bank> come on now...why is this such a big deal?
I think it's for small businesses, and for a limited time (1 year).
Gone fishing. writes:
Ok, listen! If you feed the trolls they keep typing. Disregard the crap and focus on the directed comments regarding the pertinent dialogue.
My bad. For penance I will drink 2oz of chilled vodka.
Haha...yes, I was the poster whose Mexican (probably illegal) neighbor refinanced his house twice to buy newer and nicer vehicles than I ACTUALLY OWNED, so scr*w off. At least I speak of the experience of living in California for 9 shitty years, which most people here have no idea about. Cadillac Escalades with 5k custom wheels were commonplace everywhere in California. The custom wheel shop in our town was one of the busiest businesses during the refinance boom.
I am not a racist, but Barrack Hussein Obama is clearly a racist since he subscribed to "Reverend" Wrights anti-Semitic, anti-white hate rhetoric for 20 years. Listen to the sound bites for a change a@@holes. Get informed.
Actually I'm happy about the FDIC rise as I hope the unintended consequence is to get J6P to desert his investment "advisor" and park his money in the bank where he can actually understand it.
Didn't want to be the first to say that but I agree. What's it cost to pay some idiot to hang out on the internet and screw with people. Hell, most of us would do it for free...
"Any time things get bad, economically or politically, racism and antisemitism will both troll for converts. Scroll by them, ban them, whatever: they get bored pretty quickly."
Except the smart ones like McCarthy, or Jas, sound logical on the surface.
I don't know if it is deliberate, but it is obviously a consideration for anyone seeking money from investors right now. New York did a deal at something like 5.5% for 20 years today, which was more than they would have paid not too long ago. I do not know why anyone who had an option would go to market now, given that the federal government may be throwing money out sooner rather than later, which would lower their cost of capital. Lack of activity does not equal inability to access market.
The Senate voting plan is a legislative subterfuge designed to flaunt the Constitutional requirement:
"All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives;"
which is interpreted to mean any bill dealing with taxes and spending (the bailout raises the debt ceiling and has revenue provisions related to the purchase and sale of "troubled assets".)
Alexander Hamilton explained the balancing purpose of this provision in Federalist 66:
" But independent of this most active and operative principle, to secure the equilibrium of the national House of Representatives, the plan of the convention has provided in its favor several important counterpoises to the additional authorities to be conferred upon the Senate. The exclusive privilege of originating money bills will belong to the House of Representatives."
It's offensive that House leadership would abandon their duty to the Constitution and to the institution of the People's House by allowing a bill of this magnitude to originate in the Senate.
I know lots of you live in Dana Rohrabacher's (R) district in the coastal OC, probably even CR. This is one of the best places in the US to live, but the houses are real expensive!
One of the few things I agreed on with him (before this mess) was his idea to zero out the budget for the DEA.
Anyway, here is Surfin' Dana's press statement, which I enjoyed reading.
"
Todays vote reaffirms the independence of Congress and makes it clear that we will not be stampeded into spending hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars in a precipitous manner. This legislation would have directed $700 billion of the peoples money to bailout rich and powerful interests who acted irresponsibly. It would have been a classic example of taking from those whove been responsible and giving it to those who have not.
We were told without this effort our country would suffer a financial calamity of historic proportion. However, Congress has spoken and todays defeat of the bill is a rebuke of such scare tactics. These tactics made many of us even more skeptical of being rushed to act, especially when we are being asked to allocate hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars.
There were no reforms included in the bill that would have addressed the initial root causes of this financial mess, so there is no reason to believe if we passed the bill that we would not find ourselves in a similar crisis and on the edge of a similar economic abyss over and over again. The elites in the financial industry wanted us to give them a blank check. Well, thats not responsible and it doesnt take a financial genius to predict the resulting special interests feeding frenzy. Whether this feeding would ever avert an economic debacle is yet to be seen.
Effective reform takes time, commitment and cooperation which were obviously not a part of this speeded up, hysteria driven proposal. I remain willing to work with all of my colleagues in the House to fix our broken financial system. In the end, this bailout proposal was socialism for the rich or better, socialism without a human face. It deserved to be defeated.
"
It's common knowledge , and not 'bad', that Jews, (also Chinese-Americans) have a lot of good violin players - and people in the Ivy Leagues; a disproportionate amount. Who cares ? I'm glad a few groups have work ethic in this country. It also means your kid should learn the violin or a musical instrument (not the guitar, please). This all only partially snark.
Misean, I think they should reduce the 100% insurance of deposits to $10K, pro-rate the insurance up to $250K. Say you get paid back 80% of $100K, 50% of $250K. NO bank run. Move your money from shit banks to stronger ones. It's good!
With a title like "Comrade", you must be voting for Obama Hussein...
Anyway, if you're calling for a run on the banks, I'm all for that. The investment banks have run out of capital, so they turned into deposit banks so that they can steal from depositors. I love how BoA buys up some of the most toxic assets imaginable- Merrill Lynch and Countrywide...using depositor cash. May God help us, God willing.
Wow, I remember when misogynistic objectification was the worst problem we were dealing with... even with the good stuff sprinkled in (thanks FFDIC!) this thread takes the cake for Worst. Thread. Ever.
The Stradivarius is nice. But the Stratocaster takes us into the space age. "Maybe you can't hear them... but uh, you will, I think they're calling our name..."
I have never been more politically active in my life. I have protested, I have called and emailed so many elected reps I'm starting to feel like a politician. I have talked with my family, friends, and strangers about what is happening. I have never felt more civic pride then when the house defeated the bail out.
DO NOT GIVE UP! Keep the anger and outrage alive. Become more politically active, run for office. Donate your money and time. What else counts when our country faces so many threats?
I have been inspired so many times by the people on this comment board. I always know I can come to CR and find sanity and intellect...even from the idjits. We live in a country where all views are protected. That is the simple strength we all depend on. Good night all.
The bottom line for me is, what are we loaning money to, how much does it cost and when will it be re-paid. Paulson has not told us what he is buying, he has failed to say what it will cost and he has no timeline for when this loan will be paid in full. This is nothing but bullshit and he needs to resign!
Hazard- you're clearly Bible hater, so go elsewhere to hate God. There are probably thousands of Christian-hater forums for the likes of you.
For you atheists...munch on Ghost Hunters sometime. Scientific evidence of the other side caught on camera. Unbelievable stuff that will make you believe.
I'm a libertarian. Note the little L. I'm not even registered to vote. I don';t accept mail so the court system can't make me a jury slave.
A run on the banks concerns me little. A complete collapse of the Wall Street system bothers me little. All of my wealth is in physical gold and silver. I could give a shit about the paper system.
N00bs like you should know who you are dealing with with before making asses out of yourselves.
I know lots of you live in Dana Rohrabacher's (R) district
Wow, she sounds so, how shall we say, clued in, in a partisan manner, but still. My republican rep voted yes, but NY had a bias toward that.
"What we tried to make clear to people is that this was not just about Wall Street, it was about the ability to go the bank and borrow to buy a car or send your child to school or to get a mortgage," said Walsh.
Fear everything!
They don't seem to even grasp that penalties and punishment for the guilty blackmailers should come first. A sign of how pwned they are that they can't even pay lip service to the very notion of never letting this happen again.
Let me make that clear, The US Treasury should not buy security instruments that are not regulated by GAAP accounting. That said, SEC, FASB and the regulation of wall street derivatives is very much un-changed since Enron, thus the question to ask is, should taxpayers be forced to buy the worthless obligations of an Enron SPE like JEDI?
Wow, I remember when misogynistic objectification was the worst problem we were dealing with...,
And speaking of Erin Burnett, this morning she was saying something about "well the internet bust of 2000 didn't matter, but this financial industry meltdown is really important". These people really do think they are the center of the universe.
On 3 September 2007, IDF Chief of General Staff Lt.-Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi announced the purchase of a squadron of F-35s which Israel will begin receiving in 2014. However, U.S. defense officials later agreed to allow Israel to receive the fighters as early as 2012.[56] The price of each F-35 is expected to reach $70-80 million.[57]
The Jerusalem Post reports the Pentagon has agreed to supply the F-35A variant to Israel as early as 2012, instead of in 2014 or 2015. This would make Israel one of the first nations to receive the aircraft, and very possibly the first foreign nation. Previous objections to Israels installation of its own technology in the F-35 as it has done with every US fighter it has received were also reportedly overcome. At present, the only Israel technology in the standard version will be the JSF HMDS helmet mounted display system, designed in cooperation with Elbit Systems. Israel also asked to manufacture F-35 aircraft locally at a 1:2 ratio, but the reports did not indicate whether that request was granted.[58] On 30 September 2008, the US DoD reported that Israel has requested to purchase 25 F-35As with options to buy up to 50 F-35As or F-35Bs.[59]
I hate to be conspriacy theorist, but I wouldn't put it past some Rovian sponsored group to infiltrate and destroy the level-headed CR comraderie.
Ditto DC
DCRogers writes:
Wow, I remember when misogynistic objectification was the worst problem we were dealing with... even with the good stuff sprinkled in (thanks FFDIC!) this thread takes the cake for Worst. Thread. Ever.
DCRogers | 09.30.08 - 11:13 pm | #
Yeah, remember when FDIC propositioned a female poster and Tanta took him out.
Actually FDIC makes people lazy. That was its intent. Don't worry, be happy.
I remember my Grandad questioning the quality of his bank even after FDIC insurance. People would talk about the character of the president, who got loans and who did not.
My Grandad was only a union steward for Swift and Co. and had no formal accounting training but he learned enough to stay away from bad banks.
Reduce the insurance over time to $10,000 per account and you might be suprised how quickly the commoners learn about money and banking.
My great aunt was a French war bride from WWI who owned a drug store in a small town in Missouri. After she died, the family found hundreds of rolls of silver dimes, quarters, etc under the floorboards of her store. She used banks but never trusted them.
Actually the silver was worth at that time 3X face value. Today probably 10X.
I saw the ponies had returned to the petting zoo near my house. However, this time they had gotten direct tv and were watching Maria B, Kramer, and that other condescending guy pitch the bailout endlessly.
Ponies sweating bullets. Maybe they should picket the CNBC headquaters.
Every thing I read tonight has another country saying the US screwed up and needs to pay for a bailout. With all the international pressure, how long do you think your Congress can hold out? I think the gig is about up. Got lube?
Does anybody think it's possible that the flood of anti-bailout emails/faxes/calls that originated from this blog might have caused the same $#itheels who paid to flood congress will pro-bailout calls today to pay for a little rascist astroturfing to muddy the waters here tonight? It's weird timing, just sayin'.
Very possible. There are some pretty obvious pro-bailout shills on Daily Kos. That's a different tactic than trolling, but DKos has a rating system an obvious trolls get silenced quickly. On this blog I think trolling would be more effective than shilling.
Libertarians (big L) are all idealists, until they (or their families) get in a near fatal car accident and they want ambulance service and a certified surgeon.
I never see them buck the system then.
Jury duty, yeah you man-up there and show em Misean.
Reduce the insurance over time to $10,000 per account and you might be suprised how quickly the commoners learn about money and banking.
Exactly, Ross. There are WAY too many people that think that the government is going to take care of everything and they've got an infinite ability to do so, and they don't have that ability. Need to stop rewarding these bastards that are betting on the govt. to bail them out.
Yeah, remember when FDIC propositioned a female poster and Tanta took him out.
By contrast, this is just nuts.
Sony | 09.30.08 - 11:22 pm | #
Yeah, I cannot help but notice that people are getting away with a lot worse but then Tanta is off for now. Beware if she ever comes back and hasn't had her coffee or a good night's sleep. And, I did NOT proposition Anne. It was more creative than that and I sincerely apologized for it the moment Tanta jerked my chain. I like to think that Tanta has made me a better person unlike several of you nasty boyz & girlz...
It's offensive that House leadership would abandon their duty to the Constitution and to the institution of the People's House by allowing a bill of this magnitude to originate in the Senate.
The House can't "abandon" that particular duty. The Senate will just amend an existing House approved piece of tax legislation that they kept on the shelf during this Congress for just such a purpose.
first
1st
If we start enough religions, maybe we can make every day a holiday for Congress.
who runs this government, when it closes down for a day? Is it Christmas
YAY
No way first
frst
Probability of passing both houses . . . 25% at best.
DID THE SEC EXTEND THE SHORT sale bAN?
F'ing HaloScan. Only 278 visitors online, and all the comments just disappeared for me on a refresh.
I hope this thing passes. Otherwise how are we going to keep this system of corporate slavery running smoothly? I need to roll some major commercial paper over soon to keep my plantation a going concern.
geegee --
I do not think so. This time it will pass.
Of course, I said that last time. But last time was a fluke. It will pass.
Pros and Cons via CNBC
Video - CNBC.com
Bailout billions to foreign investors.
It is good they are raisong the FDIC limit so now it will be easier to move larger amounts of money to the bank paying the highest interest rate.
Plan B? Plan B? We got no stinkin' Plan B, just Plan A plus about three extra lines.
It's essentially the same bill, which rewards bondbuyers for having overextended credit. EARTH TO PAULSON: those that took the greatest risk deserve to be written down. Instead the government is making things worse.
Is it Christmas
Ho, ho, ho! It's Paulson Claus! Have you been a good bank or a bad bank this year?
You guys don't know what you are talking about! If this bill doesn't pass there will be severe economic consequences of impending doom falling into the abyss!
Can someone explain to me why we don't have an "anti-bailout" candidate running for President? Is there anyone with the money and ability to do a 1 month blitz into the election and freakin' blow these 2 joker-fraud-ster losers out of the water?
Or am I going to have to write in Jas Jain?
I can't decide if the bailout is a good idea or not. I tend to think not but Glenn Beck is mocking the Democrats for not passing it. Something about if the Democrats were such a good party, they would have passed the bill and saved the economy. Or not, he seemed confused which confuses me.
Please stow your antisemitic garbage elsewhere.
I'm not sure it'll pass in the House. I'd bet those folks got an earfull when they went home. Both Dems and Repubs. If I were up for re-election this time (all the House), I'd think twice before voting for it (like, better have another job lined up).
Also, FWIW Rush (he's a force whether most like it or not big-time in the rural areas) and his friends are pushing hard against the bill.
I have been a very very bad bank this year. But for christmas I want all the presents rounded up from all the meaningless little boys and girls. Then i can play with them some more like a cat with a mouse. Oghh santy hank your the greeeeaattteest
It's time to limber up the dialing finger again.
I think I'll call Sanders first and see if he'll go over and club Leahy, who was sounding rather pro on the local news today.
"Is there anyone with the money and ability to do a 1 month blitz into the election and freakin' blow these 2 joker-fraud-ster losers out of the water?"
Bloomberg could. But will he?
He is too smart to preside over the GD2.
Talking points:
The Paulson deal is an open ended bailout with no limitation on outstanding debt -- and no contract as to when the cash will be re-payed. Paulson does not give a time as to when this debt will be re-paid by wall street! Someone show me the date that this loan is due, like Chrysler!
That is simple!
Dennis Kucinich coming up on Rachel Maddow in 2 minutes.
I like how the House is limiting e-mail. Maybe they will also shut down the phones because the phone calls are overwhelming the lines. Or better yet, they can say "our phone was disconnected because we didn't pay the phone bill because we couldn't get our own bailout money".
This whole fiasco has only strengthened my resolve to vote non-incumbents or third parties only.
Kona-
Fuzzy on the details, but there's the "five year clause" that says the sitting president shall report to Congress how those who borrowed will make up any losses suffered by the gvmnt.
Jews control America? writes:
" The vote is scheduled for after sundown, in observance of the Jewish holiday."
Jews control America?
Hey Asshole. Whoever you are. Why don't you go Fuck Yourself!
There are a number of Jewish Senators & Representatives. Anti Semite.
senate vote is in the bag.
Jews in control of America? Nonsense!
As the Treasury's proposal is now structured, we taxpayers won't lose simply a few billion, we will lose much more. Those foul mortgage-backed securities are losing value by the day. Further, there is little if any chance of recovering the loss from the financial sector. (As ignorant as those in the financial sector can sometimes be, government is of course worse.) Granted, on the positive side, stretch limousines will return to Wall Street. There will be limo parades and limo races, and, for those who don't work for Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley, limo lotteries, so they, too, will have a chance, however remote, to ride to and from the office in a limo. God bless America, and, most of all, Wall Street, where they are looking out for us taxpayers.
"how those who borrowed will make up any losses suffered by the gvmnt"
In five years the public will insist on involuntary organ donations.
Tomorrow evening will be that the house can't reconvene until after Ramadahn which behins the first, then Cinco De Mayo, and on and on...
I goota go
Kona-
Fuzzy on the details, but there's the "five year clause" that says the sitting president shall report to Congress how those who borrowed will make up any losses suffered by the gvmnt.
picosec | 09.30.08 - 9:25 pm | #
What was the penalty or fine if Chrysler didn't repay the loan??? Huh, huh... punk??
Ill be back...
No doubt he lobbyists have organized to swamp the offices of Congress with demands for passage.
Please don't feed the anti-semitic troll
I'm calling Sallie Mae tomorrow and telling the bitch I'm too big to fail.
Nice, attaching it to an already failed bil, so we get pumped twice on the same vote.
We out in our best shot a week ago. It was truly grassroots and spontaneous.
Hey Blogenfruef=densj0988hh098Y&(,
Tell Sallie, Lance ain't paying either... Tell her in 6 years i gotta take a note out for my kids anyway....
How long does a CDO or MBS or ABS live? Are these derivatives like 30 year mortgages? What is the cash flow from these securities and the cash flow? Why will these securities produce revenue for taxpayers in 5 years or less??
Kucinich just saluted Republican bailout rejectors. I have to go bleach my brain.
What if there was an emergency during the month of ramadam (sp?). Would we wait on the prayer rug until it was over?
Kucinich just saluted Republican bailout rejectors. I have to go bleach my brain.
Sometimes libertarian and liberal causes intersect Republican dogma. Be glad.
This woman is a Congresswoman!?!?
Video - Business, finance, and personal finance news from CNNMoney.com
Comment quality has reached new heights.
Could the immediate outcome of this vote be that the Senate passes the bill, passes the baton to the House, who then say it will take until after the election to pass it? This way the markets have some 'hope' that the bill will pass without the house-members putting themselves in jeopordy for the election. Thoughts?
Repost from the Crypt. Your will is my command, your holiness:
Pelosi: 'Congress will work its will'
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has just released a very cautious statement on the Senate's decision to go first on the bailout, saying little about Harry Reid's decision beyond "Congress will work its will."
Her full statement:
"Ever since yesterday's vote, House leaders have been in frequent communication with each other and the White House to find a plan that can win strong bipartisan approval in the House Many Members have offered ideas to modify the emergency bill narrowly defeated yesterday, and we are discussing those recommendations.
"The Senate has made a decision about how to proceed and what can pass that body. The Senate will vote tomorrow night and the Congress will work its will.
"House Democrats remain strongly committed to a comprehensive bill that stabilizes the financial markets, restores confidence, and protects taxpayers, and we hope Congress can agree on legislation in the very near future."
CR-
We would appreciate if you removed any comments derogatory to any religious belief. We come to this blog to discuss economic issues and sometimes get off topic but this needs to stop, now.
The TRUTH came out tonight on Kudlow:
Video - CNBC.com
This bailout bill allows any foreign company to sell any bad debt to the US govt, EVEN IF THE ASSETS WERE NOT ORIGINATED IN THE US. We are going to be covering bad office towers in Shanghai, failed gold mines in South Africa, EVERY BAD DEBT IN THE ENTIRE WORLD! See the CNBC video and spread it around.
FYI, just got an email through to my Rep after many tries. Keep trying, and good luck.
EVERY BAD DEBT IN THE ENTIRE WORLD!
So that $700B will last, what? 5 milliseconds?
FYI, just got an email through to my Rep after many tries. Keep trying, and good luck.
***** it was getting bounced back?
If the House is truly limiting e-mail, fax your thoughts to your reps until their toner cartridges run dry!
I've contacted mine using faxzero.com for free over the past few days. You can send 2 daily at no cost. Very easy to do.
This bailout bill allows any foreign company to sell any bad debt to the US govt,
Does the bill force the USTr. to buy them?
The bill adds new provisions - including raising the FDIC insurance cap from $100,000 to $250,000
How can they do that, without increasing the amount of insurance premium that the banks have to pay to the FDIC ?
EVERY BAD DEBT IN THE ENTIRE WORLD! See the CNBC video and spread it around.
Stockmonger | 09.30.08 - 9:37 pm | #
but we get an equity stake in all those projects......right?
The main reason why the vote is held after sundown is because they can't wait until Friday, and they want to keep it off the Nightly News and out of the Morning Paper
Jay Inslee just got back to me. He voted "Nay" but he's loaded his email in terms that lead me to believe he can be bought with a few consessions... like BK cramdowns and affordable housing programs.
It's time we learn how to spell "quadrillion".
Remember this?
Fannie Mae Eases Credit To Aid Mortgage Lending
Hindsight is golden.
it was getting bounced back?
Nah, the form kept going to that "server is busy" page. After about 10 tries over 30 minutes, I got the "Thank you for your email" page.
No reply email yet.
This is so five threads ago, but can I ask you all - if we got together and offered a penny a pop for these instruments that the banks allege there is no market for, won't we be creating a market? And then won't they have to stop setting a price based on future value?
I have a fantasy of us, and perhaps third-grade classrooms everywhere, purchasing huge stakes in citi, hsbc, oh, you name it.
could we not bury all the worthless CDS, CDO, SIV, MBS and all DBS in some mine, along with the bankers.
The TRUTH came out tonight on Kudlow:
I kind of doubt that.
To answer Dumb Rube, who asked:
How long does a CDO or MBS or ABS live?
First of all terminology. An ABS is supported by cashflow, not real estate. It lives however long the expected cashflow lives. An MBS can live as long as 30 or even 40 years, according to the underlying collateral, but in real life it's less barring defaults/liquidations. And a CDO is usually timed to demise soon after the repurchase clause on the underlying assets expires, i.e five years.
The main reason why the vote is held after sundown is because they can't wait until Friday, and they want to keep it off the Nightly News and out of the Morning Paper
EvilHenryPaulson | 09.30.08 - 9:41 pm | #
I dunno, just seems like this ensures that it will be on prime-time TV. Might be CSPAN's highest viewership ever.
Dear Bank of America,
You know that carf loan I got? Well i went out and looked at the ride again and it just aint worth the 30K I mean who would buy it now with credit so tight so I tell ya I'm marking it to , say, 3000K...... TYIA.
Senate is trying to force the House to pass. Right and left wings of the House won't like this. A comment was made yesterday by a House member regarding this possibility that bills originate in the house, that's the way things are done
There are more ornaments on the Senate bill than on the christmas tree in Rockefeller Center. Just like in the House vote, either both parties vote for it, or it goes down in flames.
Thurs night would be better under the cover of the VP debate
This sucker's going down.
Can someone explain to me?
I lost money in Enron, Lehman, AIG, Wamu. Why should I pay to save middle estern investment in likes of CITI Bank?
Is it because Bush family is friends with Saudi Royal family who has lot of money tied in Citibank?
CSPAN showing foreign media coverage of this US fiasco
I dunno, just seems like this ensures that it will be on prime-time TV. Might be CSPAN's highest viewership ever.
Citizen Scotto | 09.30.08 - 9:45 pm | #
On a night with 90210 in addition to CSIx5/Law&Orderx3, you are the one underestimating the American consumer now
On a night with 90210 in addition to CSIx5/Law&Orderx3, you are the one underestimating the American consumer now
EvilHenryPaulson | 09.30.08 - 9:54 pm | #
It's all about "America's Got Talent." That's what will be on here at Castile Scotto
It would be unreal to see the Repubs vote no and let the Dems vote yes and make them look like fools.
Don't forget American Idol...
sigh
SO much manipulation. Makes me long for the Enron days again.. it was so simple back then.
Wellll.... this market bounce is putting some lead to the pencils of the pony killers.
Is it because Bush family is friends with Saudi Royal family who has lot of money tied in Citibank?
Friends of Bush held a lot of Lehman, too.
So who gets the collective finger point when the bill passes and the economy tanks anyway?
they are adding big tax breaks too
Enjoy that you pesky ten trill debt
Twelve trillion here we come and quickly
That was like an "Equus" spin on Michelle Bachman.
Rube - the expectation is that in five years the market will have recovered and buyers will pay more for the bonds. This presupposes that the current low market prices for them are due to hysteria or lack of liquidity.
Hey all you ultra touchy assholes, there are 13 senators and 30 representatives who are Jewish, which means they are 8% of both houses.
So are we going suspend important legislative business for other religious holidays? Because if we are, please don't forget:
* 1
o Eid al Fitr * **- Ramadan ends - Islam
* 4
o St Francis Day - Catholic Chrisian
* 9
o Yom Kippur * - Jewish
* 9
o Dusera ** - Hindu
* 13
o Thanksgiving - Interfaith - Canada
* 14-20
o Sukkot * - Jewish
* 20
o Birth of the B'ab * - Baha'i
o Installation of Scriptures as Guru Granth - Sikh
* 21
o Shemini Atzeret * - Jewish
* 22
o Simchat Torah * - Jewish
* 26
o Reformation Day - Protestant Christian
* 28
o Milvian Bridge Day - Christian
o Diwali - Deepavali ** - Hindu - Sikh - Jain
* 31
o All Hallows Eve - Christia
So who gets the collective finger point when the bill passes and the economy tanks anyway?
Dems. They're in the leadership, Bush and Paulson will be long gone
CSPAN showing foreign media coverage of this US fiasco
Anonymous | 09.30.08 - 9:54 pm |
Summary of foreign coverage. How could they be so foolish, the whole credit crisis is their fault. They would be crazy not to spend $700bn after the profits they derived and considering they spend $1tn on Defence Department + wards annually.
It will be very hard for a coordinated/global bailout considering how low respect for the America the country is running -- well at least until the ECB realizes the regulation they overlooked is coming back to bite them
Here is section 112 of the bill. Decide fore yourself if this gives Hank a blank check for any foreign assets.
SEC. 112. COORDINATION WITH FOREIGN AUTHORITIES
4 AND CENTRAL BANKS.
5 The Secretary shall coordinate, as appropriate, with
6 foreign financial authorities and central banks to work to7
ward the establishment of similar programs by such au8
thorities and central banks. To the extent that such for9
eign financial authorities or banks hold troubled assets as
10 a result of extending financing to financial institutions
11 that have failed or defaulted on such financing, such trou12
bled assets qualify for purchase under section 101.
Passthekleenex writes:
So who gets the collective finger point when the bill passes and the economy tanks anyway?
Passthekleenex
well no one could have known that would happen, like no one could have known Osama would send people to crash airplanes despite the PDB memo that was titled "Bin Laden determined to strike in the US."
Minivan Bridge day?
This vote is nonsense, it should NEVER pass. its a bailout for the money men on the basis that, without it credit can't flow again. what I don't understand is how credit can ever flow when private sector debt is at 350% of GDP. Think about it- how can credit grow when its already 3 and a half times GDP. At a 5% interest rate, the cost of Interest only of this is 15% of GDP. So to grow credit to the non-financial sector, debt has to grow at 15% of GDP. I know the 350% includes the financial sector, but that's the banks so they have to pay their interest too before they can gro debt. ITS IMPOSSIBLE!!!
This is a giant fraud. The whole game is to transfer as much of the losses as possible to the taxpayer and then let it collapse anyway!!! The game is to tie down the next administration and get the taxpayer on the hook as much as possible. Anyone who votes for this is a traitor to the US
After sundown, huh? I bet wooden stakes and garlic are probably banned, too.
I offer a deal: you can have your $700b blood money if all corporate PAC contributions are outlawed forever.
Russian markets director says this crisis will hold Russia's GDP to 5% and cause central banks to back off US treasuries
You know when you're playing Risk and you are at the end game and you realize that the other guy's going to get a crapload of armies on his next turn and if he gets a next turn you're done. So you go for broke on the attack and it becomes clear after you've lost a few battles that you won't have enough juice to take over the world but you just keep on going because it seems like you have no alternatives and if you're going to go down you might as well go down in flames. And pretty soon you've got a whole pile of countries with one army on them and you've run out of attackers and your opponent is sitting there with a couple of countries and a gazillion armies just waiting for you to run out of steam.......
Comrade Popcorn,
Thas usually when my brother knocked all the pieces off and said "I quit"
I always get hammered in Kamchatka.
I thought that was separation of church and state. Why is congress closing down for a holiday that only 2% of the population believes in ? I find that really strange. Its also the month of Ramadan, do they also fast for the day until the sunset ?
Wow, the financial markets are melting down and they close shop for 2 days for some obscure religion. Please don't call me anti-semite, these are just the facts. I certainly didn't think that jews controlled America, but wow this makes me think they have a lot more influence than I thought before.
And pretty soon you've got a whole pile of countries with one army on them and you've run out of attackers and your opponent is sitting there with a couple of countries and a gazillion armies just waiting for you to run out of steam.......
Bush just wants this game to be OK until he leaves office.
This is a beautiful, Machivellian coup by the wealthy, powered elite. Get the govt. to step in and buy this crap and a few years from now the taxpayer loss will be huge. They then say "see, we told you. Govt. intervention doesn't work"
Ignore the trolls (Spiv).
Russian markets director says this crisis will hold Russia's GDP to 5% and cause central banks to back off US treasuries
Anonymous | 09.30.08 - 10:01 pm | #
I know the Fed has acted to support other central banks, does anyone know if they have any swaps with the Russians?
I always get hammered in Kamchatka
Kamchatka is key. You control it and you wi
Trollapalooza
treehugger jims post | 09.30.08 - 9:20 pm | #
I can't decide if the bailout is a good idea or not. I tend to think not but Glenn Beck is mocking the Democrats for not passing it. Something about if the Democrats were such a good party, they would have passed the bill and saved the economy. Or not, he seemed confused which confuses me.
Tonights Glen beck show was excellent. I just finished watching him. I especially liked what he said about what was written in the New York Times nine years ago today about helping less fortunate people buying homes. I will watch him more often!
okay, this has degenerated into "which religious holidays should the gummint honor" so i'm going to head off to try to finish reading phillips' book "bad money" so i can move on tomorrow night to "the trillion dollar meltdown."
A new acronym will not hide you, KKK.
Anon, read what I wrote:
13 + 30 / 535 = 0.08
Jerk.
The bailout will probably pass this time. It will carry the country through the next one or two months, maybe even through the rest of 2008. Basically, that's all that congress-people are looking for- something that carries them through re-election. After that we will need another bailout, then another, and another, and so forth.
Regarding George Bush, he has done his best to destroy the country. However, even in that he has failed since we are still standing. Look for at least the next 40 years of Democrat control of the country.
bklyn_rntr
Good Post
Tonights Glen beck show was excellent.
So . . . who was the guest host?
Sandy Koufax refused to pitch in the World Series in 1965 because his rotation came up on Yum Kippur. He got no disrespect.
Personal choice but if a Jew doesn't want to participate in the nation's business on a religious holiday, he/she can stay home. No disrespect.
Spiv writes:
Hey all you ultra touchy assholes
I guess this board will have to get controled, so pieces of Manure like this loser, can't post.
I have money in the stock market, so for me personally it would help, but I can't help but think that this is a terrible idea. We are only forstalling a great calamity and making it worse. Hard times are a coming.
All, I guess sundown is around 7PM ET or so.
Best Wishes.
We're all Level 3 now...
S.E.C. Move May Relax Asset Rule - NY Times
S.E.C. Move Relaxes Rule on Assets
This is hilarious : " SEC issued an interpretation of an accounting standard that is likely to make it easier for banks to report smaller losses, or perhaps even profits, when they announce results for the third quarter, which ended Tuesday."
Wave the magic wand and red is black! PRESTO!!! Problem solved.
Personal choice but if a Jew doesn't want to participate in the nation's business on a religious holiday, he/she can stay home.
. . . and others can comment on that decision if they so choose.
It's just two aspects of the same First Amendment.
We're all Level 3 now...
YEA!!!!
Where is my golden parachute?
Good stuff brklyn_renter -- this whole process makes me think that a power grab is under way. I think Hank will find a way to price the "assets" at the optimum level to consolidate banking power with the firms he chooses (GS, MS, BAC, WFC) and do whatever it takes to kill the regional banks. You figure, he already knows the investment bank standalone is dead, so why not figure out the new rules yourself so you can be supreme Skeletor Overlord of the new US banking order? What else could he be doing? This is basically all the guy knows how to do. Compete, and preferably, unfairly.
Correct: Bloomberg will not be presiding over GD2. He decides this weekend he will remain mayor of NYC.
Yahoo! 404 - Page Not Found
Although a third term is currently illegal.
sportsfan writes:
Tonights Glen beck show was excellent.
So . . . who was the guest host?
APPLAUSE!!
EngineerJim
If Obama is elected president - even the god may not be able to help us from going bankrupt.
We will have to sell Alaska to Russia and Lousiana to French and move to Liberia!
PS - I am not racist but am agaist a Kenyan American who calls himself African American, has never held a proper job or made a Social Security Contribution from salary check, which was not from government, and most of all a hustler running for president, who claims presidency because he gave a speech!
Some new "ideas" from the GOP:
* Require the Treasury Department to guarantee, at up to 100 percent, bank losses resulting from failed mortgage-backed securities originated prior to the plan's enactment. Such insurance, supporters say, would provide immediate value to the securities and a foundation for which they could then be sold. The Treasury Department would finance that insurance by assessing a premium on outstanding mortgage-backed securities.
* Allow companies to carry back losses arising in tax years ending in 2007, 2008, or 2009 back five years, generating a tax refund and immediate capital
* Allow a "repatriation window" for profits earned by U.S. firms overseas. Such repatriation amounts would not be taxed if invested in distressed debt (as defined by Treasury) for at least one year.
* Allow banks to treat losses on shares of preferred stock in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac as ordinary losses, not as capital losses
* Suspend the capital gains tax rate for two years
* Limit backing of high-risk loans by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac
* Schedule Fannie and Freddie for privatization
* Suspend "mark-to-market" accounting until the SEC can issue new guidelines that will allow firms to mark these assets to their true economic value
* Stabilize the dollar by repealing the Humphrey-Hawkins Full Employment Act, which alternative bailout supporters say diverts the Federal Reserve's attention from long-term price stability to short-term economic growth
* Require the Treasury to write rules prohibiting excessive compensation or golden parachutes to executives of failed companies
* Task the SEC with regular, annual audit reports of entities the federal government has brought under conservatorship or now owns
Alternate Bailout plan being offered in the house. Your thoughts?
Here's the summary Rep DeFazio provided reporters:
No BAILOUTS Act
Bringing Accounting, Increased Liquidity, Oversight and Upholding Taxpayer Security
1) Require the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) to require an economic value standard to measure the capital of financial institutions.
This bill will require SEC to implement a rule to suspend the application of fair value accounting standards to financial institutions, which marks assets to the market value, no matter the conditions of the market. When no meaningful market exists, as is the current market for mortgage backed securities, this standard requires institutions to value assets at fire-sale prices. This creates a capital shortfall on paper. Using the economic value standard as bank examines have traditionally done will immediately correct the capital shortfalls experienced by many institutions.
2) Require the Securities and Exchange Commission to restricting naked short sells permanently
This bill will require SEC to implement a rule that blocks naked selling, selling a stock short without first borrowing the shares or ensuring the shares can be borrowed. Such practices many times harm the companies represented in the sales and hurt their efforts to raise capital. There is no economic value produced by naked short sales, but significant negative effects.
3) Require the Securities and Exchange Commission to restore the up-tick rule permanently.
This bill will require SEC to implement a rule that blocks short sales without an up-tick in the market. On September 19, 2008, the SEC approved a temporary pause of short selling in financial companies "to protect the integrity and quality of the securities market and strengthen investor confidence." This rule prevents market crashes brought on by irrational short term market behavior.
3) Require the Securities and Exchange Commission to restore the up-tick rule permanently.
This bill will require SEC to implement a rule that blocks short sales without an up-tick in the market. On September 19, 2008, the SEC approved a temporary pause of short selling in financial companies "to protect the integrity and quality of the securities market and strengthen investor confidence." This rule prevents market crashes brought on by irrational short term market behavior.
4) "Net Worth Certificate Program"
This bill will require FDIC to implement a net worth certificate program. The FDIC would determine banks with short-term capital needs and the ability to financially recover in the foreseeable future. For those entities that qualify, the FDIC should purchase net worth certificates in these institutions. In exchange, these institutions issue promissory notes to repay the FDIC, counting the amount "borrowed" as capital on their balance sheets. This exchange provides short term capital, with not cash outlay. Interest rates on the certificates and the FDIC notes should be identical so no subsidy is necessary.
Participating banks must be subject to strict oversight by the FDIC including oversight of top executive compensation and if necessary the removal of poor management. Financial records and business plans should be subject to scrutiny while participating in the program.
In 1982, Congress approved a program, known as the Net Worth Certificate Program, that allowed banks and thrifts to apply for immediate capital assistance. From 1982 to 1993, banks with total assets of $40 billion participated in the program. The majority of these banks, 75%, required no further assistance beyond the certificate program.
5) Increase the FDIC Insurance limit from $100,000 to $250,000.
The bill will require the FDIC raise its limit to provide depositors confidence that their money is safe and help eliminate runs on banks which are destabilizing to the industry.
The TITANIC was thought to be unsinkable, right?
Let´s watch this movie all over again, but this time we will have a part in it.
Of course, a few will survive, but many will perish (financially speaing though).
We in the USA have no freaking moral ground to be preaching anything to anybody. We WERE an empire.
Next?
Rosh Hashana & Yom Kippur are the Jewish equivalents to the Christian holidays of Christmas & Easter, in terms of significance.
So all you racist fucks that want to make it seem like some insignificant holiday, should perhaps get a clue, and go back to grade school to learn about the religious history of the world.
it will pass, the groups like NAR and so on that are either out for personal gain at the expense of the country, or have been misled by the money men, are surely dumping pro calls to everyone.
The popular financial media has gone into scaremongering mode: but tomorrow, your company might fold and your pension checks will bounce!
Disgusting.
I don't even have a strong opinion that the bill is totally off base: but I know for sure that those with the most to gain from it are absolutely devoted to avoiding any discussion of alternatives, they want to ram this through very quickly before anyone can point out that credit is moving just fine where default risk is not too high. Every day does not add risk of heart attack to the system, it adds risk of heart attack for those that profited mightily on the way up, as they look at their over-leveraged portfolios.
I agree with that. If you think Bush has messed up, wait till the Magic Muslim gets elected. You can't print enough dough to pay for the stuff he has promised. And maybe his crazy preacher can lead the prayer at the inauguration. God Damn America!!!
Obama's preacher. God help us!!!
"Kucinich just saluted Republican bailout rejectors. I have to go bleach my brain."
"Sometimes libertarian and liberal causes intersect Republican dogma. Be glad."
Left jab, right hook. Bipartisan truth to bipartisan fraud.
All I know is I'm using this rally to dump pretty much anything/everything that ain't nailed down. It's hard to take a market seriously when this kind of stuff is going on. The US market is only slightly more legit than the Pakistani market's move to 'outlaw' declining prices.
FASB, Short selling bans, tier III assets, etc etc etc.. puuhhlleease.
Call me when things get back to normal.
My bailout solution:
Bakersfield Bubble
Sometimes libertarian and liberal causes intersect Republican dogma. Be glad.
Saw Kucinich on Rachel Maddow...he was clear, concise on the failures of the original bill and the new, improved bailout. He lauded the repubs like Shelby, Bunning, Kyl and Corker who stood against the White House and their leadership in favor of free market capitalism. We need all the allies we can muster to kill this monster.
Please get on the email and phones and contact your senators to stop this bailout. Schumer's site seems to be flooded already. This is a bailout written by and for the investment banks. They promised to insure mortgage assets that they could not possibly cover even 1% of, yet they have been paying out billions in holiday bonuses over the past several years. Goldman Sachs alone paid out something like 20 billion last Christmas alone in bonuses to under 1000 employees. Stop the greed. Stop it dead. Your voice will make a difference.
Stan,
I think I speak for most people on this thread when I say SHUT THE HELL UP!
PS - I am not racist but am agaist a Kenyan American who calls himself African American, has never held a proper job or made a Social Security Contribution from salary check, which was not from government, and most of all a hustler running for president, who claims presidency because he gave a speech!
Poor and Unemployed | 09.30.08 - 10:17 pm | #
Anytime a statement begins with "I'm not a racist but", it is generally followed by a racist statement. Your post is no exception, nor are you.
Max writes:
Some new "ideas" from the GOP:
And what would that be? Zero?
The final bill will be even WORSE than previous versions. Expect it.
Close the book on this country, if this passes, we're done. They're not going to be able to save the economy from the inevitible. This holiday season will be a disaster. They just want to cover their asses on the way out. Bastards. Anyone who votes for this bill, has lost my vote. Regardless of who they are.
@ Comrade SS
I actually became Jewish in the 4th grade. My forth grade teacher would ask if any of us were Jewish because we would be excused for the holiday. I ALWAYS raised my hand.
Worked pretty good til my Dad found out about this a few years later...
Geegee, speak only for yourself. I will not shut up, at least not till Barack Hussein Bin Ladin gets elected. We need higher taxes and more welfare. We need the Magic Muslim.
Already sent out another round of emails. Am amused this took down the HOR system for a while earlier. Who knows, maybe it does more good than we think (fingers crossed).
Please ban Stan!
" I am not racist but am agaist a Kenyan American who calls himself African American"
This is pretty funny, actually.
And why deny you are a racist...why not admit it and be comfortable with yourself. I mean seriously, who cares if you're a racist.
Gone fishing. writes:
Alternate Bailout plan being offered in the house. Your thoughts?
Here's the summary Rep DeFazio provided reporters:
More of the same Garbage. No solutions to help resolve the crisis. Lots of short selling BS. We're screwed, but good.
I know! This bill pass failure was an opportunity to really put the screws to lobbyists and force them to cough up blood in ransom with vacation homes and fancy private aircraft trips overseas with hookers
Hey Stan,
You don't belong here. Go get an education. Frankly your posts are unwelcome, and all you seek to do is to race-bait. It's not going to work, we're a better crowd than that.
Nemo writes:
Comment quality has reached new heights.
Here, here... Hopefully it will subside after the elections... hopefully....
.....
Poor and Unemployed,
I didn't say I supported Obama, however I can see where things are headed. Think 1932 and FDR.
OT, but growing worse:
Silver was hammered under $11 on the COMEX today. Reconcile that with this excerpt from Colorado Gold:
A possible eight week delay on all silver orders.
NO bags till further notice! (they haven't been made since 1964)
No thousand ounce bars for now.
NO SILVER EAGLES FOR NOW
Johnson-Matthey not accepting orders for 100 oz bars till they catch up with back orders.
YLSP writes:
You guys don't know what you are talking about! If this bill doesn't pass there will be severe economic consequences of impending doom falling into the abyss!
Can someone explain to me why we don't have an "anti-bailout" candidate running for President? Is there anyone with the money and ability to do a 1 month blitz into the election and freakin' blow these 2 joker-fraud-ster losers out of the water?
Or am I going to have to write in Jas Jain?
YLSP | 09.30.08 - 9:19 pm | #
I think you're onto something. I'm writing in Jas.
On a serious note, there is a huge opportunity for a "white horse" candidate. The right person could probably sweep the vote.
Did I miss some sort of tectonic activity that caused Kenya to no longer be part of mainland Africa? Or is just that Stan's knowledge of geography is inversely proportional to his bigotry?
It is a sad day indeed when Americans think that the corrupt to the core FDIC can save its ass.
The racism to intelligence ratio is rising on this site.
Dow futures now down 86 points. Ordinarily that would be a concern.
Already sent out another round of emails. Am amused this took down the HOR system for a while earlier. Who knows, maybe it does more good than we think (fingers crossed).
Bond Girl
I've been thinking about sending follow up emails / faxes etc.
(I sent an email, a fax and a phone call to both Cali Senators)
My question is do you think it does anything... I seriously doubt they are actually checking names but still I wonder.
What say ye?
........
"I seriously doubt they are actually checking names but still I wonder."
At some point it is human nature to stop counting and start weighing.
Gone Fishing, I brought up DeFazio's plan on a previous thread. Fair economist said it would work. It doesn't buy toxic assets. It does allow the FDIC to sell warrants that seem to be a kind of loan to a bank. But there is determination of solvency first by the FDIC.
I'm in favor of it, because I'm against the 700 billion dollar purchase of mbs, cds and any other toxic bs and because I want the house to say fu to Paulson.
Poor and Unemployed,
I didn't say I supported Obama, however I can see where things are headed. Think 1932 and FDR.
EngineerJim | 09.30.08 - 10:27 pm | #
That would be the logical sequence since we currently have Herbert Hoover for president. Maybe they'll change the law and Obama can run for a 3rd and 4th term.
Aha, there you are FFDIC.
I owe you a dinner. I closed and that sucker funded today.
A week ago I would have bet 3 to 1 that the funding would be gone. I guess some lending is still taking place...
I am lucky wabbit.
Regards
I constantly talk to people who claim that Mayor Bloomberg is doing such a fine job. I remind them that he was a lifelong Democrat who switched to get elected. Just an arrogant billionaire opportunist with a huge appetite for power. Paulson, Perot, even Trump used to talk about running, but of course he wasn't really solvent.
the comments are so much more...well...grown up today.not to mention easier to keep up with
i think i might be learning something!
FFDIC, will raising the coverage cost the banks a higher insurance premium ?
Argento,
Good point. I guess I'll resume my campaign tomorrow.
Note, I'm as hardheaded as Andy Dufresne....
"A letter a day"
.......
I didn't think it would do anything the first time around and was pleasantly surprised. And that was with the media fawning over the bailout then too. Who knows? I doubt they are keeping track of names, their staff probably could care less.
I think the Senate is a lost cause. Call your House rep @ 202-224-3121.
please do not feed the assclowns... i mean bears...
anyhow, good thoughts over the past day on how short selling ban probably drove markets further down yesterday then normal.
any thoughts on how a temp ban on mark to market may affect us down the road? for that matter, any other predictions on adverse effects that may come from these bailout adjustments, other then the obvious?
(I sent an email, a fax and a phone call to both Cali Senators)
My question is do you think it does anything... I seriously doubt they are actually checking names but still I wonder.
What say ye?
........
nades
I think Boxer is our only hope in CA. Any idea where she stands. I fear she will give in.
Feinstein I consider a lost cause. She's heavily invested, if you know what I mean. I don't think 1,000-1 on calls would prevent her from voting for this bill.
I still have hope that Boxer will do the right thing though. She usually listens to the Democratic base, and the base is pretty strongly opposed to this garbage.
Senate votes on a $700,000,000,000.00 debt-funded boondoggle on the same day debt reaches $10,000,000,000,000.00.
Call me shocked and awed.
FFDIC, will raising the coverage cost the banks a higher insurance premium ?
comraderay | Homepage | 09.30.08 - 10:32 pm | #
Time will tell. Many highly rated banks have not paid a dime in deposit insurance for a decade. This was wrong because they were allowed to participate in high risk lending and other significant risk which should have required some level - even a nominal level of premiums payment towards the FDIC fund. The fund should have been twice its $52B level when this started a year ago. Mistakes happen but his was not due to a mistake. It was the banking lobby lining the pockets of Congress.
DeFazio and others were on CSPAN explaining their position and taking many questions. They made more sense that anyone else I've heard
Comrade SS,
I called Boxer, got some dude in the back office. He said she was against the Paulson Plan but all for the Dodd plan.
When I pressed him on if she would vote yes for the Paulson Plan he said he couldnt answer...
That was answer enough for me...
......
So why do we vote if they do whatever they won't ? Like they know (Congress ) what's best for the USA . We need to reduce spending .
We should all celebrate Navaratri.
No vote until Oct 10th.
This thread is reminding me of how C-Span degenerated from open, intelligent discussion to being dominated by call-in blow hards.
CR has never been partisan, and we only had one obsessive insane pundit who, despite his diatribes, had nothing on the crap I've had to read around the past few days.
Hope Calculated Risk goes to paid service (please)
For now it's back to:
Cntrl F: Calculated Risk
Cntrl F: Dryfly
Cntrl F: Ciao
etc.
Festivus!
It doesn't take long to contact them. I think at this point they are just counting the people who contact them, so if you just say something, that increases our statistic. You probably do not need to spend time writing technical explanations.
It may be a lost cause, but it doesn't take that much time and it would be unfortunate not to have done it if it actually did mean anything. Remind them that you vote.
Bond Girl,
I was also pleasantly surprised that the grass root efforts actually made a difference.
This was my first political move ever. I've never voted, wrote anyone, or really gave a sh*t. (Note I am by no means bragging, I'm rather ashamed, but being a closet libertarian makes it difficult)
The campaign resumes tomorrow!
.......
So all you racist ***** that want to make it seem like some insignificant holiday, should perhaps get a clue, and go back to grade school to learn about the religious history of the world
i always thought abe told his sons, those jesus freaks will buy anything...
lets think up some story and sell it to them... we'll call it 'the bible'
is that the history were supposed to learn?
Credit enima is coming..... writes:
So why do we vote if they do whatever they won't ? Like they know (Congress ) what's best for the USA . We need to reduce spending .
I'm only going to vote on the propositions this time around I think. I was not Thrilled with my choices to begin with, so if I'm ever going to just withhold my vote, might as well be now.
I really don't care much what happens to this country at this point. Let it die.
Waaaah. Most of you clowns are worse than the 'trolls'. Ultra sensitive assholes is an understatement. Stop already.
Comrade Scared Shitless
The Defazio plan is the plan that was used to clean up the Savings and Loan fiasco. That was a good plan then, and a good plan now. What's wrong with it?
Comrade Kristina
I am African American!
Since when Obama bashing is not considered racist?
Sorry! It was since Hillary was forced to make way for Obama so liberals could make history at any cost.
Comrade Scared Shitless writes:
The racism to intelligence ratio is rising on this site.
Agreed. The fool to intelligent poster ratio is also rising (e.g. Stan).
Just an arrogant billionaire opportunist with a huge appetite for power.
We have one of those in Calif. -- Arnold
WTF is up with all the racist and religious trolling? Is there a full moon or something?
Sorry! It was since Hillary was forced to make way for Obama so liberals could make history at any cost.
Hillary wasn't forced...she lost
crap. I take my earlier comment back. thanks for nuthin.
Here's what McConnell said earlier about the feedback he's receiving - what bullshit:
Im hearing from towns and municipalities throughout Kentucky that cant find the money to finance new schools and other civic projects, and from farmers and small business owners who are suddenly being told by their banks that a long-term loan is due. Others are being pressured to pay more, or well ahead of schedule. And these are people with good credit.
Im hearing from people like the retired school counselor in Anderson County who said she cant afford to see her small retirement savings vanish. Ive never written to any senator or congressman before now, she wrote. This is so important to our government and its citizens.
One small business owner wrote to me about a company he started in his garage that now employs 100 people. He said that because of the credit crisis, the interest rate hes paying on his building just jumped 400 percent. Speaking on behalf of all the small business owners in his community, he had a simple message: Kentuckians need help now.
And heres what a woman from Central Kentucky wrote to me about the financial rescue plan that the House of Representatives rejected yesterday:
I hope you will not lose sight of the vast numbers of innocent Americans who work tirelessly to create a better future for our children and fellow Americans, who could be financially wrecked by plummeting U.S. and overseas markets.
If the rescue plan fails, this woman added, shes afraid shell have to sell off part of her familys farmland.
This is awful. I'm out. Good night all !
............
Well every time I tried to call Boxer last week her voicemail was full.
"Please enter your passcode. #####
You have thirty-one thousand four hundred eighty-one new messages.
First new message, received yesterday at 4:14 am.
Hi I'm a voter from Long Beach California I say screw the $*#&@ @#@@! they shoud #$@@#$%@ the #$# and @#^@#$$@#$ the $#$%%%n Wall Street Bailout Boondoggle!
Press 7 to delete this message. # Message deleted.
Next message, received yesterday at 4:15 am..."
Comrade Scared Shitless,
I think trolls are to be ignored, even those who are completely irritating for whatever reason.
Tet Nguyen Dan is an important holiday in Vietnam. It's new year on the lunar calendar. A lot of men died in 1968 as a result of that holiday and related events. Should we then look down upon that particular religion? Of course not.
The First Amendment is not subject to further editing at this stage. It provides:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
We've seen a lot of 'peaceable assembly' and 'petition for redress' on this board over the past couple of weeks. There's a reason the email lines at Congress are jammed.
So it shouldn't be so surprising that a couple other aspects of that same First Amendment like 'free exercise' and 'freedom of speech' might arise from time to time and, apparently, tonight.
Just let it pass. Support or oppose the bailout or rescue as you choose. It's not worth dying for either way.
The First Amendment, however, is one of the very few things that America offers that is worth dying for. All of it.
Shalom,
Here's what McConnell said earlier about the feedback he's receiving - what bullshit:
McConnel spewing bullshit? I'm shocked, shocked.
SIFMA is rallying its troops -- the bailout (their words) is as important, if not more so to everyone but Wall St (aka Main St)
Very interesting though, they are up to the minute on new accounting monkey business
SIFMA Released Today Blog
So we've got mark-to-fantasy because you cannot trust the market price, and on top of that sure give yourself another trillion of goodwill and it's as good as a deposit in the bank for reserve requirements
Dunno Scotto, I enjoy reading this blog and occassionally comment but it's pretty ugly tonight. I really hope they don't go to paid service but I understand if you all do. I'll still lurk but I'll miss the banter with people like CSC and yourself. You people are some of the very few that are actually well informed on this topic.
any thoughts on how a temp ban on mark to market may affect us down the road?
I know I'm going to be chomping at the bit to buy stock in companies whose balance sheets are incomprehensible by design. Look how well it worked with Enron!
Comrade Scared Shitless,
I could give 2 pieces of shit for jewish or any other religous holiday. I just don't know why they have to hold up the economy for 2% pf the population like someone stated earlier. So take it up your semite ass.
The Senators from California will note your opinion, but will add enough cinnamon and spice to the bill to make it palatable, and if you reject that gracious treat, you will be marginalized. :^/
It's amazing how people will throw their children under a bus because they have 120K in a 401k.
I have been coming here for almost 3 years (back when the site was a forest scene) and it goes back and forth between good posting and bad posting...just ignore the posts you dont like.
I do not remember Congress being in recess for Rosh Hashanah (the Jewish New Year) in late September or early October.
Usually there is a recess preceding elections every four years. The Congress was supposed to be in recess for that reason. This saga delayed an already planned vacation period.
Is this the reason for the anti-Semitism expressed on this blog this evening?
Cordially,
Ellen Kimball
(Jewish by birth; Unitarian by choice)
I think we need to be able to distinguish the I cant GET credit people, from the I dont like the TERMS of the credit Im being offered people. My guess is there is an awful lot of the latter that is being misrepresented as the former.
Thoughts?
I have an education and Stan is right. Barrack "Osama" Hussein Obama "bin Laden" is a Muslim and he will be sworn in with the Koran. God help us...
If McCain had opposed this bailout instead of renaming it to a rescue, he'd be in the White House for sure.
It's a rescue written by and for the benefit of Goldman Sachs, JPM, and Morgan Stanley, in that order. They insured mortgage assets with 1/20th to 1/40th of the assets needed to cover a complete loss. This is called leverage. Their bets have gone sour, so we get to bail them out by basically buying out the assets that they would otherwise have to cough up.
It's not so "complicated".
ju guys seem reeel scharp. da word round hear is no bailoout , no social security money
ju guys no sumthin bout that?
Question....are they just ignorant, and actually believe it will work? Given the fact most of them probably don't know what the term "economics" even means.
Or do they know the end game is coming, and their intention is to get past the election, and let the system collapse a few months from now?
DK = Sta
Anybody see Maria Bartiromo on Hardball? I can't imagine how anybody could watch CNBC with that shrieking banshee on it. That voice. She's like something you want to nail with a tranquilizer gun. I could never been in the same room without hitting her with a chair.
Although, her rat-tat-tat deliver does let you quickly catch up on all the completely bullshit bailout talking points. "No one can get any loans!!!!" she screamed like a wounded dog.
just ignore the posts you dont like
Better yet, get Grease Monkey and Killfile, and let your computer ignore the posts you don't like.
Dear Senator________:
Please vote NO on the $700 billion bailout plan. Please vote to let the free markets work without government intervention. Please vote to protect tax payers and future generations against an unconstitutional redistribution of wealth to private interests. Please find an ALTERNATIVE that can improve the trust that has been lost between Wall Street and investors, depositors and banks and between banks themselves. We dont believe that trust can be purchased by government in an attempt to repair the badly damaged reputations of those who willingly securitized, misrepresented, rated and sold bad investments to clients around the world. Tomorrow, we are counting on your NO vote and will support you every step of the way! God Bless America.
I might suggest contacting not only your
House and Senate members but all the others
as well. Remind them you have a long memory
and money to donate to them, or their opposition,
depending on their vote.
Others are being pressured to pay more, or well ahead of schedule. And these are people with good credit.
He's lyin' through his capped teeth. The Darkness Household has had record, record I tell you, credit card offers the last two weeks. Phone ones even on auto-dialer. What a crock.
It is fantastic. The market just won't wait for the election. Or is it just the classic treasury raid by the thieves when they know they're half out the door? The incumbents can't get October over with fast enough, so the people can actually use leverage. Even if momentum fizzles, some careers are done. I'll go 2-1 that Pelosi is finished as Speaker. $50 tip to CR.
vast numbers of innocent Americans who work tirelessly to create a better future for our children and fellow Americans
McConnell didn't add: ". . .who also happen to be in debt up to their eyeballs."
If there really is a Depression, it will teach a whole new generation about the perils of debt.
i second c&c just keep scrollin'.
--
I know I'm going to be chomping at the bit to buy stock in companies whose balance sheets are incomprehensible by design. Look how well it worked with Enron!
--
right, so since it is clear most of those numbers are bull, how will this help get the credit markets moving again? seems silly, seems like $700B to make main street think somethings been done, but if the numbers are still bologna won't we cycle right back into this again?
DK must stand for Don't Know. Do you have anything to contribute, other than anti-Obama racist garbage? Good, then go someplace else. You are henceforth ignored.
You people are some of the very few that are actually well informed on this topic.
Comrade Kristina | 09.30.08 - 10:46 pm | #
Comrade K, you give me too much credit, but I am honored by your words. I hope to be able to contribute as I can.
Note: DK was the guy posting earlier about his Mexican neighbor who had the nerve to have better cars in the driveway.
I've had enough, I'm outta here.
PS Hey Crispy, been here too since the forest days, never have seen anything like this.
Whod've thought I'd be wishing for Jas.
Nite!
If there really is a Depression, it will teach a whole new generation about the perils of debt.
it would be helpful to return to a system of money that was not so abstract. part of today's problem is that 95% of the population doesn't understand the system.
Ellen, your the first non-anonymous poster since Jas Jain and Sebastian
that's not a group that wins many friends.
please consider adopting a new name
maybe Comrade Green Coast...
Got Ten Trillion?
So the bailout was fkd, we have two days of further delay, contention and challenge. Sounds fine to me, as long as it fully identifies the nature of the problem(s) and the response instruments are up to the task(s).
However, we still don't have a theme song!
If CR will let me, I'll be posting some options over the next half hour:
1 YouTube -
This is REM having a bad day. I'm glad the t-storms have passed over DC this last hour.
The bit about municipalities is what got me. A lot of new bond deals have been sidelined, but it is not because credit is not available, it is because credit is more expensive. Everyone is waiting for the bailout. So the consideration of a bailout is having the same effect as what the absence of a bailout is supposed to have.
I also like the guy whose bank supposedly recalled a long-term loan. If that is true, that guy nees an attorney.
Haha...DK does not equal Stan, but DK shares an opinion with Stan. DK is also very educated on Islam, and DK knows for a fact that Islam is an intolerant, evil religion. Enough said.
DK is also against the bailout, illegal immigration, H-1B visas, H-2B visas, student visas, anchor babies, amnesty, and high levels of legal immigration. DK is against outsourcing, offshore manufacturing, and the overall theme of Wall Street selling out Main Street to the highest foreign bidder, regardless of the consequences to America.
DK is also an avid fan of Michael Savage, who is easily one of the smartest men in America.
Israel being armed by the US (for attack on Iran?)
US approves 25 F-35 fighter aircraft sale to Israel
DEBKAfile Special Report
September 30, 2008, 11:40 PM (GMT+02:00)
US F-35 can strike air and ground targets
The Pentagons Defense Security Cooperation Agency has approved the $15.2 billion sale of 25 F-35 Strike Fighters for Israel with an option for another 50, saying it is vital to US national security interests to assist Israel develop a strong and ready self-defense capability.
DEBKAfiles military sources report that President George W, Bush, in mid-financial crisis, fully discharged his promise of a defense package for Israeli before he left office. There was no announcement of the date of supply.
Earlier this month, the Pentagon approved up to $330 million in three separate arms deals for Israel and posted its advanced FBX-band radar system to an Israeli Air Force base in the Negev.
Israel is the first foreign nation to receive the up-to-the-minute Lockheed Martin F-35 Strike Fighter, which will replace the older F-16 fighters and enhance its air-to-air and air-to-ground defenses and by virtue of five exceptional features:
The first consignment of 25 F-35s has a conventional take-off and landing (CTOL) configuration, while the next 50 are short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) aircraft. In the event of an armed conflict, the Israel Air Force calculates that its long runways will be in danger of attack by Iran, Syria, Hizballah and Hamas.
The deal was approved after senior Israeli and US officials met in Washington this month and assurances were tendered that sensitive technologies would not be passed to third parties.
Comrades,
Oh for Chrissakes I'm Catholic...attack me ... we like it. Oh yeah...I'm also a Buffalo Bills fan. My boss is asking me if we're lining up for another Super Bowl Loss.
For Fuck's sake. Yeah Wall Street has a lot of Jewish owners. This is a fact. NBA has a lot of black players. This is a fact.
I'm not gonna analyse either on religious/skin color grounds. For Heavens sake...WTF just happened here?
Good Lord Almighty.
Nostrovia,
If there really is a Depression, it will teach a whole new generation about the perils of debt.
El Cliffo
they won't learn crappola.
BK courts are pushover's.
sign here, here and here. waaa la! free and clear.
but if the numbers are still bologna won't we cycle right back into this again?
If only we had the chance to cycle in and out. I think we're looking at "All bologna all the time."
DK is also an avid fan of Michael Savage, who is easily one of the smartest men in America.
DK
Enough said.
MLM writes:
just ignore the posts you dont like
kill file... neat, thanks MLM
Quote:It's amazing how people will throw their children under a bus because they have 120K in a 401k.
How very accurate...money really is the root of all evil.
My question regarding the FDIC increase to $250,000 is how many people at the median income of $50,000 have that much liquid in a bank> come on now...why is this such a big deal?
World leaders tell US to take 'responsibility' for financial failure
Yahoo! 404 - Page Not Found
"I believe that the Americans have come to realise that they have a responsibility to the rest of the world as well as to themselves," British Prime Minister Gordon Brown told Sky News and BBC television.
"The US must take its responsibilities in this situation, must show statesmanship for the sake of their own companies and for the sake of the world," echoed European Commission spokesman Johannes Laitenberger.
OK. 12-5 Pelosi out as Speaker. Last chance.
Michael Savage specializes in outrage, that's about it.
MLM, so you would agree eliminating mark to market is basically pointless, it will just allow an easier route to deleverage.
kind of like looking the other way when banks decide what to call level 3 assets.
Comrade CSS,
""DK is also an avid fan of Michael Savage, who is easily one of the smartest men in America."
Apparently DK doesn't know Savage is Jewish.
This is so fking silly.
Nostrovia,
i'm out. too much crazy gas in the air tonight.
"I believe that the Americans have come to realise that they have a responsibility to the rest of the world as well as to themselves," British Prime Minister Gordon Brown told Sky News and BBC television.
Apparently this guy has never seen fox news (or read this comment thread).
Trying it on, in classical liberal vein, c'mon folks:
2 YouTube - Spacemen 3 - "Revolution" Taang! Records
M
I have an education and Stan is right. Barrack "Osama" Hussein Obama "bin Laden" is a Muslim and he will be sworn in with the Koran. God help us...
Freedom of religion means crap. As an atheist I always knew that but try to get a christian to admit that . . . Watching the christians flounder over this one, which is pure delusion, amuses me no end. You don't want freedom of religion, you want freedom to enforce your religion. Fine, just admit it for once.
As a no-god fearing person, I find all you People of the Book to be the same. Identical. You all loves yourself some good martyrdom and persecution and will manufacture it against all rational sense. It's like crack to you people. So go on fighting amongst yourselves, hating all that your momma and daddy taught you to, but please, just leave the sane among you to live their lives in peace, thanks.
Even money an anti-bailout candidate unseats a 2-term incumbent with a double digit lead in polls before bailout.
Bond Girl:
probably tin foil hat territory, but do you think it possible that the phenomenon you describe (waiting for the bailout having the same effect as no bailout) was counted on by some- to encourage the bills eventual passage?
Ok, listen! If you feed the trolls they keep typing. Disregard the crap and focus on the directed comments regarding the pertinent dialogue.
I posted this two threads down. I think the FDIC insurance should be reduced not increased...
"FDIC seeking upgrade from $100k to $250,000 per account insured"
Yeah that'll help. I mean after WaMu FDIC has a negative balance sheet. Where TF are they going to get the money to handle that increase, given that they probably won't be able to increase insurance premiums. (Glances at mirror)...Oh yeah...(grumble)...
Nostrovia,
Comrade Misean
What about reducing deposit insurance from the current $100K to $10K and have diminishing pro-rated pay-outs up to $250K (extend the limit+ add haircuts)? Then add interest rate subsidies (determined by Texas Ratio) from the Fed to the banks for deposits? This way you reduce moral hazard of yield-chasing (parking money in higher-yielding CD's with banks that are more likely to fail), the stronger banks get stronger, and the weaker banks hurry up and fail quicker, making it easier for everybody to figure out where the dead bodies lie?
"When you're born, they give you a ticket to the Freak Show.
When you're born as an American, you get a Front Row Seat."
The Late Great George Carlin.
I think Jas was the one who kicked off the original Grease Monkey/Killfile revolution on CR. Once in a while I bring him back from the dead just to check and make sure I'm still a born and bred dope, but not often.
Does anybody think it's possible that the flood of anti-bailout emails/faxes/calls that originated from this blog might have caused the same $#itheels who paid to flood congress will pro-bailout calls today to pay for a little rascist astroturfing to muddy the waters here tonight? It's weird timing, just sayin'.
Israel being armed by the US (for attack on Iran?)
US approves 25 F-35 fighter aircraft sale to Israel
DEBKAfile Special Report
****** I'd suspect as a hedge against Russia, as well.
Any time things get bad, economically or politically, racism and antisemitism will both troll for converts. Scroll by them, ban them, whatever: they get bored pretty quickly.
It is simply the silly season that comes around every 4 years.
The MSM huzzas one side or the other to get the ratings up so they can be paid. As Jas would say, American Dupes buy into this Democracy shibboleth to the benefit of the banksters.
Panem et circeses. Sports or politics. Your choice.
My question regarding the FDIC increase to $250,000 is how many people at the median income of $50,000 have that much liquid in a bank> come on now...why is this such a big deal?
I think it's for small businesses, and for a limited time (1 year).
Gone fishing. writes:
Ok, listen! If you feed the trolls they keep typing. Disregard the crap and focus on the directed comments regarding the pertinent dialogue.
My bad. For penance I will drink 2oz of chilled vodka.
Comrade Doc at the Radar Station,
"What about reducing deposit insurance from the current $100K to $10K"
Ah I see you want a bank run. Good show, but I doubt our esteemed leaders ar gung ho for one.
Nostrovia,
Haha...yes, I was the poster whose Mexican (probably illegal) neighbor refinanced his house twice to buy newer and nicer vehicles than I ACTUALLY OWNED, so scr*w off. At least I speak of the experience of living in California for 9 shitty years, which most people here have no idea about. Cadillac Escalades with 5k custom wheels were commonplace everywhere in California. The custom wheel shop in our town was one of the busiest businesses during the refinance boom.
I am not a racist, but Barrack Hussein Obama is clearly a racist since he subscribed to "Reverend" Wrights anti-Semitic, anti-white hate rhetoric for 20 years. Listen to the sound bites for a change a@@holes. Get informed.
Waves breaking forms on my horizons.....
3 YouTube - Chemical Brothers ft Richard Ashcroft - The Test
Actually I'm happy about the FDIC rise as I hope the unintended consequence is to get J6P to desert his investment "advisor" and park his money in the bank where he can actually understand it.
MLM,
Didn't want to be the first to say that but I agree. What's it cost to pay some idiot to hang out on the internet and screw with people. Hell, most of us would do it for free...
"Any time things get bad, economically or politically, racism and antisemitism will both troll for converts. Scroll by them, ban them, whatever: they get bored pretty quickly."
Except the smart ones like McCarthy, or Jas, sound logical on the surface.
On topic... I was going to ask if anyone had a link to how the senate voted last time, but then a quick google turned up the vote count.
Ouch!
(man that seems like eons ago, this shit is aging me.)
Ah I see you want a bank run. Good show, but I doubt our esteemed leaders are gung ho for one.
--
Comrade, you've made my night complete and I thank you. So long.
Nostrovia!!
I don't know if it is deliberate, but it is obviously a consideration for anyone seeking money from investors right now. New York did a deal at something like 5.5% for 20 years today, which was more than they would have paid not too long ago. I do not know why anyone who had an option would go to market now, given that the federal government may be throwing money out sooner rather than later, which would lower their cost of capital. Lack of activity does not equal inability to access market.
The Senate voting plan is a legislative subterfuge designed to flaunt the Constitutional requirement:
"All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives;"
which is interpreted to mean any bill dealing with taxes and spending (the bailout raises the debt ceiling and has revenue provisions related to the purchase and sale of "troubled assets".)
Alexander Hamilton explained the balancing purpose of this provision in Federalist 66:
" But independent of this most active and operative principle, to secure the equilibrium of the national House of Representatives, the plan of the convention has provided in its favor several important counterpoises to the additional authorities to be conferred upon the Senate. The exclusive privilege of originating money bills will belong to the House of Representatives."
It's offensive that House leadership would abandon their duty to the Constitution and to the institution of the People's House by allowing a bill of this magnitude to originate in the Senate.
matt -
There's a lot of smart money in the world looking for bargains. If MBS and CDO's were such screaming deals, they be getting snapped up.
As someone pointed out not long ago, we're all level 3 now. This isn't going to end pretty.
I know lots of you live in Dana Rohrabacher's (R) district in the coastal OC, probably even CR. This is one of the best places in the US to live, but the houses are real expensive!
One of the few things I agreed on with him (before this mess) was his idea to zero out the budget for the DEA.
Anyway, here is Surfin' Dana's press statement, which I enjoyed reading.
"
Todays vote reaffirms the independence of Congress and makes it clear that we will not be stampeded into spending hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars in a precipitous manner. This legislation would have directed $700 billion of the peoples money to bailout rich and powerful interests who acted irresponsibly. It would have been a classic example of taking from those whove been responsible and giving it to those who have not.
We were told without this effort our country would suffer a financial calamity of historic proportion. However, Congress has spoken and todays defeat of the bill is a rebuke of such scare tactics. These tactics made many of us even more skeptical of being rushed to act, especially when we are being asked to allocate hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars.
There were no reforms included in the bill that would have addressed the initial root causes of this financial mess, so there is no reason to believe if we passed the bill that we would not find ourselves in a similar crisis and on the edge of a similar economic abyss over and over again. The elites in the financial industry wanted us to give them a blank check. Well, thats not responsible and it doesnt take a financial genius to predict the resulting special interests feeding frenzy. Whether this feeding would ever avert an economic debacle is yet to be seen.
Effective reform takes time, commitment and cooperation which were obviously not a part of this speeded up, hysteria driven proposal. I remain willing to work with all of my colleagues in the House to fix our broken financial system. In the end, this bailout proposal was socialism for the rich or better, socialism without a human face. It deserved to be defeated.
"
It's common knowledge , and not 'bad', that Jews, (also Chinese-Americans) have a lot of good violin players - and people in the Ivy Leagues; a disproportionate amount. Who cares ? I'm glad a few groups have work ethic in this country. It also means your kid should learn the violin or a musical instrument (not the guitar, please). This all only partially snark.
Misean, I think they should reduce the 100% insurance of deposits to $10K, pro-rate the insurance up to $250K. Say you get paid back 80% of $100K, 50% of $250K. NO bank run. Move your money from shit banks to stronger ones. It's good!
With a title like "Comrade", you must be voting for Obama Hussein...
Anyway, if you're calling for a run on the banks, I'm all for that. The investment banks have run out of capital, so they turned into deposit banks so that they can steal from depositors. I love how BoA buys up some of the most toxic assets imaginable- Merrill Lynch and Countrywide...using depositor cash. May God help us, God willing.
Cadillac Escalades with 5k custom wheels were commonplace everywhere in California.
I'll bet those wheels hold their value - as J6P says - there's $$$ in cars, broads and booze.
Constructive input to functioning markets and price discovery:
4 YouTube - IGGY POP and the STOOGES "search and destroy"
How can they do that, without increasing the amount of insurance premium that the banks have to pay to the FDIC ?
Comrade RayOnTheCollective
You haven't read the memo? They just keep printing. It's ALL free.
" he will be sworn in with the Koran "
No requirement to use a Bible or the Koran.
Probably more appropriate to be sworn in with a credit card.
Wow, I remember when misogynistic objectification was the worst problem we were dealing with... even with the good stuff sprinkled in (thanks FFDIC!) this thread takes the cake for Worst. Thread. Ever.
Haha...yes, they probably do hold their value better than the houses that they leveraged against to buy them, and certainly better than a Cadillac.
The Stradivarius is nice. But the Stratocaster takes us into the space age. "Maybe you can't hear them... but uh, you will, I think they're calling our name..."
I thought worst thread ever was Popeye's fight with Guest.
But thanks CR, Tanta and all regulars for the education and entertainment. I lurked for a long time before I started posting.
I have never been more politically active in my life. I have protested, I have called and emailed so many elected reps I'm starting to feel like a politician. I have talked with my family, friends, and strangers about what is happening. I have never felt more civic pride then when the house defeated the bail out.
DO NOT GIVE UP! Keep the anger and outrage alive. Become more politically active, run for office. Donate your money and time. What else counts when our country faces so many threats?
I have been inspired so many times by the people on this comment board. I always know I can come to CR and find sanity and intellect...even from the idjits. We live in a country where all views are protected. That is the simple strength we all depend on. Good night all.
That was for purple, in his haze.
So much for leaving.
The bottom line for me is, what are we loaning money to, how much does it cost and when will it be re-paid. Paulson has not told us what he is buying, he has failed to say what it will cost and he has no timeline for when this loan will be paid in full. This is nothing but bullshit and he needs to resign!
Ok, just for kicks:
6 ANTI-CHRIST
Hazard- you're clearly Bible hater, so go elsewhere to hate God. There are probably thousands of Christian-hater forums for the likes of you.
For you atheists...munch on Ghost Hunters sometime. Scientific evidence of the other side caught on camera. Unbelievable stuff that will make you believe.
Gone fishing: You're awesome. Keep it up. I am doing the same.
Oh no...hope it doesn't pass again...and with even a worse ratio!
I can't believe they come back 2 days later with some change that is totally irrelevant to the original bill, and want it to pass.
We're screwed!
Comrade DK,
I'm a libertarian. Note the little L. I'm not even registered to vote. I don';t accept mail so the court system can't make me a jury slave.
A run on the banks concerns me little. A complete collapse of the Wall Street system bothers me little. All of my wealth is in physical gold and silver. I could give a shit about the paper system.
N00bs like you should know who you are dealing with with before making asses out of yourselves.
Just sayin'
Nostrovia,
Re the F-35: There was no announcement of the date of supply.
Of course not, you moron, it's still in development.
I know lots of you live in Dana Rohrabacher's (R) district
Wow, she sounds so, how shall we say, clued in, in a partisan manner, but still. My republican rep voted yes, but NY had a bias toward that.
"What we tried to make clear to people is that this was not just about Wall Street, it was about the ability to go the bank and borrow to buy a car or send your child to school or to get a mortgage," said Walsh.
Fear everything!
They don't seem to even grasp that penalties and punishment for the guilty blackmailers should come first. A sign of how pwned they are that they can't even pay lip service to the very notion of never letting this happen again.
Let me make that clear, The US Treasury should not buy security instruments that are not regulated by GAAP accounting. That said, SEC, FASB and the regulation of wall street derivatives is very much un-changed since Enron, thus the question to ask is, should taxpayers be forced to buy the worthless obligations of an Enron SPE like JEDI?
Wow, I remember when misogynistic objectification was the worst problem we were dealing with...,
And speaking of Erin Burnett, this morning she was saying something about "well the internet bust of 2000 didn't matter, but this financial industry meltdown is really important". These people really do think they are the center of the universe.
F35 - wikipedia -
On 3 September 2007, IDF Chief of General Staff Lt.-Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi announced the purchase of a squadron of F-35s which Israel will begin receiving in 2014. However, U.S. defense officials later agreed to allow Israel to receive the fighters as early as 2012.[56] The price of each F-35 is expected to reach $70-80 million.[57]
The Jerusalem Post reports the Pentagon has agreed to supply the F-35A variant to Israel as early as 2012, instead of in 2014 or 2015. This would make Israel one of the first nations to receive the aircraft, and very possibly the first foreign nation. Previous objections to Israels installation of its own technology in the F-35 as it has done with every US fighter it has received were also reportedly overcome. At present, the only Israel technology in the standard version will be the JSF HMDS helmet mounted display system, designed in cooperation with Elbit Systems. Israel also asked to manufacture F-35 aircraft locally at a 1:2 ratio, but the reports did not indicate whether that request was granted.[58] On 30 September 2008, the US DoD reported that Israel has requested to purchase 25 F-35As with options to buy up to 50 F-35As or F-35Bs.[59]
I hate to be conspriacy theorist, but I wouldn't put it past some Rovian sponsored group to infiltrate and destroy the level-headed CR comraderie.
Ditto DC
DCRogers writes:
Wow, I remember when misogynistic objectification was the worst problem we were dealing with... even with the good stuff sprinkled in (thanks FFDIC!) this thread takes the cake for Worst. Thread. Ever.
DCRogers | 09.30.08 - 11:13 pm | #
Yeah, remember when FDIC propositioned a female poster and Tanta took him out.
By contrast, this is just nuts.
Actually FDIC makes people lazy. That was its intent. Don't worry, be happy.
I remember my Grandad questioning the quality of his bank even after FDIC insurance. People would talk about the character of the president, who got loans and who did not.
My Grandad was only a union steward for Swift and Co. and had no formal accounting training but he learned enough to stay away from bad banks.
Reduce the insurance over time to $10,000 per account and you might be suprised how quickly the commoners learn about money and banking.
My great aunt was a French war bride from WWI who owned a drug store in a small town in Missouri. After she died, the family found hundreds of rolls of silver dimes, quarters, etc under the floorboards of her store. She used banks but never trusted them.
Actually the silver was worth at that time 3X face value. Today probably 10X.
I saw the ponies had returned to the petting zoo near my house. However, this time they had gotten direct tv and were watching Maria B, Kramer, and that other condescending guy pitch the bailout endlessly.
Ponies sweating bullets. Maybe they should picket the CNBC headquaters.
Maybe we should all send Maria ponies.
libertarians are true idealists, until an Anarchist comes along and steals their gold.
Just stating the truth DK.
If you don't like being sworn in on a credit card, how about the latest sports page or the real estate section of the Washington Post?
Every thing I read tonight has another country saying the US screwed up and needs to pay for a bailout. With all the international pressure, how long do you think your Congress can hold out? I think the gig is about up. Got lube?
Comrade yogi,
"libertarians are true idealists, until an Anarchist comes along and steals their gold."
Try it. I have an inkling to try out my new .223 rifle on a moving target.
;P
Nostrovia,
You know what they say... Anarchy may not be the best form of government, but it is better than no government at all.
Does anybody think it's possible that the flood of anti-bailout emails/faxes/calls that originated from this blog might have caused the same $#itheels who paid to flood congress will pro-bailout calls today to pay for a little rascist astroturfing to muddy the waters here tonight? It's weird timing, just sayin'.
Very possible. There are some pretty obvious pro-bailout shills on Daily Kos. That's a different tactic than trolling, but DKos has a rating system an obvious trolls get silenced quickly. On this blog I think trolling would be more effective than shilling.
With all the international pressure, how long do you think your Congress can hold out?
If it's the French we're home free. It's the Belgians isn't it? Even better.
Ha, I think I know what my senatorial fax tomorrow morning will read.
Misean:
I always razz my buddy at work, who sounds a lot like you, that he cant eat his pile of silver-
i hope you have some dirt, too. and water.
More thread cf: velocity, eg of money and information:
7 ANTI-CHRIST
Libertarians (big L) are all idealists, until they (or their families) get in a near fatal car accident and they want ambulance service and a certified surgeon.
I never see them buck the system then.
Jury duty, yeah you man-up there and show em Misean.
Reduce the insurance over time to $10,000 per account and you might be suprised how quickly the commoners learn about money and banking.
Exactly, Ross. There are WAY too many people that think that the government is going to take care of everything and they've got an infinite ability to do so, and they don't have that ability. Need to stop rewarding these bastards that are betting on the govt. to bail them out.
Yeah, remember when FDIC propositioned a female poster and Tanta took him out.
By contrast, this is just nuts.
Sony | 09.30.08 - 11:22 pm | #
Yeah, I cannot help but notice that people are getting away with a lot worse but then Tanta is off for now. Beware if she ever comes back and hasn't had her coffee or a good night's sleep. And, I did NOT proposition Anne. It was more creative than that and I sincerely apologized for it the moment Tanta jerked my chain. I like to think that Tanta has made me a better person unlike several of you nasty boyz & girlz...
My wife believes Fortis must be some kind of diet suppliment.
I still say that stupid names for corporations is an indication of stupid managements.
Fortis
YaHoo
WaMoo
Enron
TARP
It's offensive that House leadership would abandon their duty to the Constitution and to the institution of the People's House by allowing a bill of this magnitude to originate in the Senate.
The House can't "abandon" that particular duty. The Senate will just amend an existing House approved piece of tax legislation that they kept on the shelf during this Congress for just such a purpose.