I had a couple of nice rounds of golf at a development just like this in the next county over. Course was absolutely empty, and over half the lots were still empty. About a third of those that were built out were up for sale. They had the "members of the public welcome" banners out...all the way out to the main highway.
Heck, they even let me play despite the no-denim rule! Green is the only color that counts.
Another one of these, in another suburb-county is having a fire sale on the remaining houses - 50% haircuts.
At least here in NYC, some of the municipal courses are pretty good. I like the one in Forest Park, Queens. Nice and cheap. No need for a fancy smancy membership at a private club unless you need to impress.
I wonder how the cost of maintaining a similar amount of land as a natural area, and maybe putting in hiking trails and some benches, but charging nothing, would compare? Would more people use such a space?
I don't like golf.
I think we should convert a bunch of these into frisbee golf courses and put university dormitories around them.
That might make some sense.
Golf is a dying sport, just like horse racing.
The generation that aspired to the golf lifestyle is mostly either ensconced or on the way out feet first.
So gee, what do I care?
Call them greenbelts and get rid of the overmaintenance. Make the clubhouse a conference center/community center.
Only way to go. We have a most likely two to three times too many golf courses to meet sustainability over the next twenty years.
How about that for terrifying for all of those older investors who bought in with the expectation the younger generations would prize their memberships?
Look to Japan and what happened there when golf crashed.
Golf started out being played in Scotland on sand and heath. It was almost free.
Golf today is one of the most expensive sports in terms of energy and water consumption. It costs a lot of money to mow and water. Do you know how many MPG a golf course mower gets? And how many miles they have to mow per week?
There will come a time when golf courses will be banned. I mean, except for the very wealthy.
Allen, what DID happen when golf tanked in Japan? I never heard about this. I was never a golfer, but my now-elderly father grew up playing the game in the midwest when apparently it was very cheap (i.e. not out of the reach of a factory worker). Still plays, at 87.
When you buy a home on a fairway, and the golf course can't afford to mow and water any more and has to close down, then what will you have in your front yard?
Golfers at La Moraleja, like those at courses across Spain, are rushing to sell memberships. That's cut their value by 32 percent since 2006, according to Pilar Sanchez, an administrator at the club.
It's the first thing they get rid of,'' Sanchez says.Next it's the beach house.''
Wealthy Spaniards are abandoning luxuries as a decade-long economic boom based on the homebuilding industry comes to an abrupt halt. The construction slowdown will probably lead the economy to the brink of a recession by year-end, Finance Minister Pedro Solbes said July 24 in Madrid.
Also: At least 65 privately held developers and real-estate brokers based in Spain have filed for bankruptcy this year, according to Credito y Caucion, a Spanish credit insurer.
Real-Estate Wealth
The richest 10 percent of Spanish families, with an average net worth of more than 700,000 euros, have two-thirds of their fortunes tied up in real estate, according to a Bank of Spain survey published last year.
with the following strategy all americans can find the leisure time to go golfing
(AP) Two-thirds of U.S. corporations paid no federal income taxes between 1998 and 2005, according to a new report from Congress.
The study by the Government Accountability Office, expected to be released Tuesday, said about 68 percent of foreign companies doing business in the U.S. avoided corporate taxes over the same period.
Collectively, the companies reported trillions of dollars in sales, according to GAO's estimate.
"It's shameful that so many corporations make big profits and pay nothing to support our country," said Sen. Byron Dorgan, D-N.D., who asked for the GAO study with Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich.
we need to all incorporate.. and then we can employ these tax strategies and no one will have to pay any taxes.
NEW YORK, Aug 12 (Reuters) - U.S. economic growth is expected to slow more sharply in the coming months than previously forecast with employers shedding staff into next year, according to a Philadelphia Federal Reserve survey released on Tuesday
The generation that aspired to the golf lifestyle is mostly either ensconced or on the way out feet first.
I wonder what the demographics for gold are, both in terms of age and what professions favor it. Because if old bankers and real estate agents are the ones playing, yeah short golf equipment. But if it is popular among young tech folk, it could have a pretty good future after the present slump runs its course.
My wife works across the street from Callaway in Carlsbad...they just doubled their main building...have 2 others down the road. It will be interesting times for them in the near future for them to say the least. The new Carlsbad muni charges up to $150 for a game, and it is all hilly...what do I care, I don't golf!
Read what happened in Spain, golf clubs went bk, members stopped spending insane amounts entertaining, and the prices of houses on the golf course fell. Younger folks lost interest, and the number of golfers in
Best one I can think of was the purchase of pebble beach in the early 90s- they eventually sold it for less than half of what they paid. Lol. funny thing is they would have made out if they could have just sat tight until the next boom in california.
Just like when any boom ends, the bagholders bail at a loss.
Best quote:
"During the "Bubble Econonmy" there was a uniquely Japanese episode of speculation in golf club memberships. At the peak the total market value of golf club memberships was about $200 billion (that is billions not millions). There is even a Nikkei Golf Club Membership Index."
from JAPAN'S BUBBLE ECONOMY
Dec 18th 1997
From The Economist print edition
Many explanations have been advanced as to what went wrong with the East Asian miracle. Most of them can be summed up in one four-letter word: golf
To answer the nature area question - I have lived next to two nature preserves - one was immediately adjacent, and the other is about a mile and a half away. Both were owned/run by The Nature Conservancy.
Trail maintenance appears to be a volunteer effort, and land use exemptions provide nice tax shields, so I think costs are fairly low, certainly relative to course/greens maintenance!
I was less enthused about the one I lived immediately adjacent to, because that was in a much more heavily populated area and the sense of people tromping through the backyard was...uncomfortable (ironically so, since I was in the middle of a largish - ~160ac - farm). It felt more akin to living on a greenbelt/common area in a PUD than having a park nearby (I have lived on a common area as well, and found it less annoying - it's all about expectations). The one nearby now is the province only of serious outdoors nut & twig types, and they are not a nuisance (though some make their way onto my land, after passing through that of several neighbors).
"It's shameful that so many corporations make big profits and pay nothing to support our country," said Sen. Byron Dorgan, D-N.D., who asked for the GAO study with Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich.
To be fair that's because most of that goes to wages and is taxed via payrolls. Even money paid to contractors and such usually eventually gets taxed in that manner.
I had a little corporation for a while and there was never any intent to make profits, just earn money and pay wages and occasionally buy a few things to operate the business.
That doesn't mean the money going through the company wasn't ultimately taxed to oblivion. It was, and I can attest to that.
This is very different as I see it from the stuff going on with our Wall Street kleptocrat hedge fund managers paying 15% taxes etc. This is genuinely criminal IMO.
Thats why when i look at GC lots, i choose the ones on the par 3 holes. That way I can mow them and still practice my short game.... plus every spring when they aerate the greens i use the plugs and put them in my yard so i can have a nice carpet lawn....
BTW that was mean more as a response to the 2/3 of US corporations don't pay corporate taxes comment. The complaints about foreign operations may be legit.
I see quite a few 20-40 year olds who I would guess many are tech employees on the driving range/golf course here in Santa Clara, CA.
Anyone have thoughts about how well skiing will hold up in the face of a recession? Between lift tickets, lessons, food, lodging and transportation, I always thought golf was pretty cheap compared to a weekend of skiing. Not sure how to play that though.
can someone tell me if in second week of november, if my taxes will increase by 3000 bucks and then i will get a 1500 stimulus check again, only to hear 3 months later that miraculously my stimulus check didnt go towards purchases....????
personally i think, as a cautious renter, that the HMI deduction should be eliminated and renters should be given 20K stimulus checks to go towards our 20% down...
but we are DC we are immune to any RE bubbles, everything appreceiates in DC... I mean we are all govt and contractors... there is no above our means.... didnt we have diplomatic immunity from RE bubbles?
My neighbor farms about 500 acres of pine trees, pastures and hay. I wonder if venomous snakes would be considered a golf hazard (like the coral I came across last week).
The Silicon Valley area was overbuilt in golf courses years ago. Some municipalities built them thinking they'd enhance the community and at least pay for themselves, but not all have.
Personally I think the next generation would be ready for the birth of X-treme golfing -- played on rough countryside over and around steep hills and deep gullies. In other words, just the way the Scots invented it. Aerobic golf, yeah...
A few years back, I asked my developer son-in-law how they decided on a name for a development... he said "generally we name it for whatever USED to be here"
I suspect the US lifestyle is headed downward: less golf, less eating out, less vacation, less leisure time pursuits, etc., etc., at least for the vaunted Middle Class. Long term trend.
Golf play has decreased almost every year since 1998 as I understand... People in the US are getting too old and too out of shape to spend hours on a hot course. The economy won't help things...
jus me writes:
Golf would be fun if you could use air bazookas to shoot the balls instead of hitting with clubs. Something a la paintball.
Brilliant we could turn these courses into giant paintball battle fields I would pay for that...
Don't like the action today low volume small sell-off would have liked it to gap higher than sell down at the end of the day...
I used to work at a muni golf course in college. I've never been surrounded by a bigger group of bigoted, elitist losers in my life. Not to mention that golf courses are the biggest waste of water in the Arizona desert. Good riddance!
Didn't George Carlin have a skit about golf courses and the homeless? That works on so many levels here.
just adding to ac's comment earlier about corp. tax...yup...the incentive for a small to mid-size corp (remember there are more of these than biggies...) is take every cent of revenue and whittle it down to zero each year...on the one hand, yes to avoid the tax, but on the other hand to spend in productive areas, R&D, infrastructure upgrades, materials, training, acquisitions...whatever. The net effect is that either stuff is being purchased to someone else's benefit (and taxed), and/or people are being paid to perform services (and taxed)...it's an incentive to spend because it will get taxed. My problem is with publicly traded companies that have boards with fiduciary responsibilities that plunder the coffers by giving out exorbitant bonuses verses strategic acquisitions, development of new products, etc...shareholder wealth has been transferred to officers without commensurate performance of the companies they run. Remember meritocracy...? Yep, with the lead pipe, in the drawing room,...
if you take golf too seriously , it can be a drag.
However, it is a nice way to spend a a few hours walking, talking and stretching.
Just this past weekend , I spent time with an old friend(who's relativley poor, btw) on a local bay area course, and he new many of the players who happened to be his childhood friends. I don't see much wrong with that.
If were going to lambast golf courses as wastes of water, can we also include, horse tracks, dog tracks, mega-casino facilities, baseball parks, football stadiums, public parks, soccer fields, ...
shall i continue?
We're in the process of watching the owners of one of the local courses trying to get the land around the course re-zoned to allow the course to be downsized from a full 18 holes to an executive course with houses. Turns out the great golf boom they were expecting didn't turn out so well. They've losing money on the course almost from day one. It's too bad. I like the course, but it's so hard to find the 5-6 hours to get out and play 18 holes and pay decent money for the privilege.
They've losing money on the course almost from day one.
I doubt many courses are money makers. A course is a labor of love for the sponsors, welathly ones, usually. However, it should'nt be a surprise to readers here that courses were derivatized into a money maker(on paper, of course).
if these developments are hurting in established high-hat places like the DC suburbs, I wonder what's gonna happen to the new golf club developments in the far exurbs of Phoenix? Some of them got under-the-table water rights deals, which may not be renewed if they're not contributing to the tax base in the way they were promising.....
All three of the courses mentioned have "Creek" in the name. Do any of them actually have a creek running through the course?
What a stupid question.
You have to have creeks on golf courses for two reasons: as a source to water the golf course and to catch balls the pro shop can recycle for profit.
If there's no creek there, you drill a well, pump up water, throw in some nice rocks, and drill a hole on the other side of the golf course for the water to drain into.
Creeks make the value of creek-front real estate lots sky-rocket (compared to creek-front lots with no creeks).
SD July foreclosure (Notice of Trustee Sale) stats are out. We're a step away from the milestone of having he county produce more foreclosures (2385) than sales (around 2500 in June). That milestone will be breached when we see the Fall seasonal decline in sales, all other things being equal.
SD will increasingly see REO sales "crowd out" normal sales. That will force normal sellers to discount in order to have some chance of selling. Those discounts, in turn, will produce further discounting by REO sellers. The only "break" in this process is an increase in demand -- at lower prices -- from home buyers. We've seen such an increase in ultra-low end zip's like Oceanside, but those are markets where small homes can more readily be converted to rentals. Higher-end markets are not as friendly to cash investors looking for rental yield, so I'd expect the "break" in the discounting to occur much later in the process, at lower rental yields.
Dad used to own a small 9 hole course in Silicon Valley. A round of golf was pretty cheap then, the land was converted orchard, you could pick cherries as you walked.
The city built a premium 18 hole course with taxpayer money and put him out of business; oddly, he was able to sell the land for a hugely inflated price based on the value of all the "golf course" homes that surrounded it.
He retired to Florida and went sailing.
Here in Vegas, the Lake Las Vegas rich boy development went under, and has come back under BK. The interesting thing is that the BK filing revealed that LLV pays 2 million to the city for water a year. They irrigate the 3 golf courses, and also have a man-made lake. All in a desert that is desperate for water. The only source of water, Lake Mead, is falling faster than John Edward's pants. They will fail again. The course fee is about $300 at The Falls, and higher at the other 2. Just utter stupidity....
One of the saddest things to see is to go to a town in Mexico, where the peasant women and children tote water on their heads, and see some fat slob American riding around in a golf cart with all the sprinklers roaring.
It makes me wanna throw that tourist golfer out of the cart and make him tote water on his head for a few hours. It's a lot better exercise anyways.
In the United States, the number of people who play golf 25 times or more per year fell from 6.9 million in 2000 to 4.6 million in 2005,[12] according to the National Golf Foundation. The Foundation reported a smaller decline in the number who played golf at all; it fell from 30 million to 26 million over the same period.[12]
I love playing golf for the challenge, and if you walk, there's a fair bit of benefit physically. But golf seems to have fallen off the back for me. Maybe it's just because when I want get outside I can get on my bike and go pedal around and it doesn't cost me anything.
Shares of Los Angeles-based Vineyard Bancshares fell 45% Tuesday after the company said in a regulatory filing that customers have recently withdrawn "significant" deposits. "Negative publicity relating to our financial results and the financial results of other financial institutions, together with the seizure of IndyMac Bank by federal regulators in July 2008, has caused a significant amount of customer deposit withdrawals, thus affecting our liquidity and our ability to meet our obligations as they have come due," the company said in its 10q quarterly SEC filing Monday. Vineyard said that it is seeking a waiver from the FDIC to raise new funds via brokered deposits, and if it doesn't get it, it won't be able to raise money that way."
I play golf often here in Central Fl. The price has come down everywhere. I can now play early in the morning for 20-30 bucks. It used to be a lot more expensive. And you dont have to wait much anymore.
"Golf is fun and actually outside of surfing the toughest sport to learn and get real good at"
Uh, I expect you mean individual, recreational sports, because baseball is a heckuva lot harder than either.
"wastes of water, can we also include ... mega-casino facilities, ... public parks"
Sure, the Bellagio wastes a bunch of water, but I didn't realize that super-deluxe fountains were required for a casino. As to public parks, why do we need to water them? And if so, why not grey water, as many places in NorCal? Would that be a waste of grey water, too?
"I wonder how the cost of maintaining a similar amount of land as a natural area, and maybe putting in hiking trails and some benches, but charging nothing, would compare? Would more people use such a space?"
That sounds like a park!
"Do your HOA fees have to cover the golf course when it can't break even?"
Generally the HOA is completley seprate from golf course operations. The golf operats as it's own corporate identity. The HOA maintians it's self seperatly with a different managemnt agent generally and a different governing structure. There is no way HOA fees could cover the costs of running even a poor course much less one you would want to play. Usually the homeowners aren't even mebers of the club. That is an extra fee. Sometimes discouted for residents.
Didn't the whole Russia/Georgia thing seem too orchestrated?
None of the big world powers seemed to flinch much or get too agitated. Bush kept smiling from his seat in China.
The market yawned.
It makes me feel like the blogger was right who said Russia had a "chore" to take care of in Georgia (with the world's blessing) before the big action starts in the Persian Gulf.
Is it true that our fleet is assembling in the Persian Gulf to blockade Iran as part of an international effort, right after the Olympics (or the swimming portion)?
It makes me feel sad about those Georgian civilians who got torched to help Russia prove its authority. But I guess somebody's gotta do it.
Golf, the sport, will always be with us. It's fun, a challenge, humbling,fresh air, etc. Golf, the wannabe conduit to social validation, will die. Wannabe's don't need 18 holes, just the first hole so others can observe them golfing! Once that hole is over, the rest is pretty much "out in the woods", no opportunities for posturing.
"We go through these periods of correction. It's not unhealthy. It's the way capitalism works."
So bailouts are supposed to be part of capitalism?
If I'm thinking of the right person, Fisher's been one of the more sane people.
But yeah in this case bailouts and capitalism seem at odds.
I think what it comes down to is people can't handle the roller coaster ride that is capitalism, and the politicians know this.
Even though time and time again the basic ideas behind capitalism seem to be vindicated (e.g. China today).
But success seems to so often sew the seeds of it's own demise because the successful grow tired of the stress and uncertainty that is inherent in obtaining that success.
So political and financial structures begin developing in such a way that they may ironically institutionalize loss of that success while perversely claiming to insure against just that sort of outcome.
Not into the game of golf. I have always had a hard time calling it a sport. This is another sign that Americans will have to live within their true financial means. Ouch it will be a painful transition but much needed.
Wow, all these comments from every direction. Let's start with context and bona fides; the Dawg lives on a SoCal golf course and has a ski cabin in the mountains. The big picture big deal is it isn't about the course or the slopes. The houses in trouble nearly all over-improved, refi'd or traded recently. In other words it isn't about the underlying value but rather a newfound unwillingness to pay for the bagholding idjit's bad choices.
Huge swaths of not recreationally adjacent properties are imploding but no one seems all that interested. Who cares that hundreds of regular houses are being lost when dozens of high end homes are in trouble.
The LATimes has an interesting if deeply flawed analysis of "underwaterness." Apparently only 1% of those who bought in 2003 owe more than their imputed equity but 71% of anything bought in 2006 is underwater.
Irrigation - especially golf courses - is major reason that Minneapolis (with water everywhere) has a daily per-capita water use of 145 gallons while Phoenix uses 226 and conservation-minded Tucson uses 160.
"I always thought golf was pretty cheap compared to a weekend of skiing. Not sure how to play that though.
Dave"
Both sports take along time and are expensive. I'd focus on investing on companies that produce cheap sport products for sports that don't take a long time to play. Suggestion: Campbell's Soup (CBP) for kick-the-can.
Aspirational. A nice word to describe the lifestyle of many No. Va. people. My nephews, both under the age of 7, take golf classes. Golf is the big thing at my daughters HS. That and lacrosse.
Mcmansions, German cars, and Rolexes. No. Va. turned into So. Cal. somewhere in the 80's when all the Reagan money came flooding in.
Personally, I hate golf, and never wear a watch or a cell phone (almost). I may be the only senior level IT person left in America that can say that.
"Golf and skiing not same model. A ski mountain really has no alternative economic use"
I didn't mean to say that a golf course and a mountain are exactly the same thing. What I meant to say is that both businesses'revenues are from RE sales and leasing as much as or more than on usage rentals.
Lotta golf haters here, it figures. I started playing golf in 1971, when I was 10. It was for fun on a public par-3 course. I graduated to longer public courses as I got older and better at the game. I was invited to and played at two private clubs and disliked the atmosphere at both intensely. It was all equipment porn (hey honey, look at my new carbon-fiber shaft!), drinking, betting, and lying about how much money you make. Almost nobody there cared about actually playing the game unless there was money on the line. Still go to public courses now and then, but not like when I was younger. Taking 5-6 hours to finish 18 is madness. I could WALK a decent length 18 in 4-4.5 hours. The courses that required driving a cart drove me batty. It actually slowed me up on some courses.
I wonder what the impact of Wii on the generation of today's kids will be, in the context of golf. Will it make them more likely to take it up when they get older, or will the real thing seem like a gigantic, expensive pain in the ass?
Golf courses designed in the last 10 yrs are generally too difficult for the average golfer. The builders design them for hard core players who don't want a course that is too easy. But when somebody that plays once or twice a month goes on one of these courses, they wind up shooting double par-140 or something. Raised greens, narrow fairways, water in front of the tee all quickly kill off enthusiasm. When you hit a clean 7 iron and it bounces off a green raised 6 feet above the fringe, you want to hit something with your club.
You have to play 2 to 3 times a week for a couple of years unless you are athletically gifted to come close to par on most newer courses.
A funny story about golf courses from a couple decades ago...
First off - I HATE GOLF - always have.
Anyway I was traveling with an avid golfer on a business trip - it was during one of the 1980s recessions and the topic turned to his country club (very posh - very near bk due to high rollers tanking)... he was morose.
I told him the rural CC near me did go BK and was for sale - 18 hole course and they were only asking $250K for it (something like $1000/acre)... he asked why I didn't buy it - good GOD man, you could own a whole course by yourself - your own course!!!
I told him I was thinking about it - but thought it would be a hassle to plow it all up... all those bumps & trees would have to go... plus the land wasn't that great (I knew the area - kinda sandy) - there were better parcels if I wanted one that bad.
He got real quiet & looked at me... you mean you'd turn it back into a farm? Why would you do that?
I said - ya, I'd try to grow beens & corn on it... why would I want a money losing golf course?
Golf is an expensive hobby. Go short Titleist.
First? Doubt it...
I had a couple of nice rounds of golf at a development just like this in the next county over. Course was absolutely empty, and over half the lots were still empty. About a third of those that were built out were up for sale. They had the "members of the public welcome" banners out...all the way out to the main highway.
Heck, they even let me play despite the no-denim rule! Green is the only color that counts.
Another one of these, in another suburb-county is having a fire sale on the remaining houses - 50% haircuts.
BTW - I'm about two.5 hours south of DC.
I like "aspirational". Note that there are -lots- of golf courses in the DC area, so we're not talking about demand-side marketing.
At least here in NYC, some of the municipal courses are pretty good. I like the one in Forest Park, Queens. Nice and cheap. No need for a fancy smancy membership at a private club unless you need to impress.
I wonder how the cost of maintaining a similar amount of land as a natural area, and maybe putting in hiking trails and some benches, but charging nothing, would compare? Would more people use such a space?
VNBC: Summary for - Yahoo! Finance
Stock just started tanking (down 36%)...run on the bank?
I don't like golf.
I think we should convert a bunch of these into frisbee golf courses and put university dormitories around them.
That might make some sense.
Golf is a dying sport, just like horse racing.
The generation that aspired to the golf lifestyle is mostly either ensconced or on the way out feet first.
So gee, what do I care?
Call them greenbelts and get rid of the overmaintenance. Make the clubhouse a conference center/community center.
Only way to go. We have a most likely two to three times too many golf courses to meet sustainability over the next twenty years.
How about that for terrifying for all of those older investors who bought in with the expectation the younger generations would prize their memberships?
Look to Japan and what happened there when golf crashed.
What a waste.
Someday this war's gonna end....
Golf started out being played in Scotland on sand and heath. It was almost free.
Golf today is one of the most expensive sports in terms of energy and water consumption. It costs a lot of money to mow and water. Do you know how many MPG a golf course mower gets? And how many miles they have to mow per week?
There will come a time when golf courses will be banned. I mean, except for the very wealthy.
Allen, what DID happen when golf tanked in Japan? I never heard about this. I was never a golfer, but my now-elderly father grew up playing the game in the midwest when apparently it was very cheap (i.e. not out of the reach of a factory worker). Still plays, at 87.
When you buy a home on a fairway, and the golf course can't afford to mow and water any more and has to close down, then what will you have in your front yard?
Not a fairway. A freeway.
Golfers at La Moraleja, like those at courses across Spain, are rushing to sell memberships. That's cut their value by 32 percent since 2006, according to Pilar Sanchez, an administrator at the club.
It's the first thing they get rid of,'' Sanchez says.Next it's the beach house.''
Wealthy Spaniards are abandoning luxuries as a decade-long economic boom based on the homebuilding industry comes to an abrupt halt. The construction slowdown will probably lead the economy to the brink of a recession by year-end, Finance Minister Pedro Solbes said July 24 in Madrid.
Also: At least 65 privately held developers and real-estate brokers based in Spain have filed for bankruptcy this year, according to Credito y Caucion, a Spanish credit insurer.
Real-Estate Wealth
The richest 10 percent of Spanish families, with an average net worth of more than 700,000 euros, have two-thirds of their fortunes tied up in real estate, according to a Bank of Spain survey published last year.
with the following strategy all americans can find the leisure time to go golfing
(AP) Two-thirds of U.S. corporations paid no federal income taxes between 1998 and 2005, according to a new report from Congress.
The study by the Government Accountability Office, expected to be released Tuesday, said about 68 percent of foreign companies doing business in the U.S. avoided corporate taxes over the same period.
Collectively, the companies reported trillions of dollars in sales, according to GAO's estimate.
"It's shameful that so many corporations make big profits and pay nothing to support our country," said Sen. Byron Dorgan, D-N.D., who asked for the GAO study with Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich.
we need to all incorporate.. and then we can employ these tax strategies and no one will have to pay any taxes.
But people will have more time on their hands...
NEW YORK, Aug 12 (Reuters) - U.S. economic growth is expected to slow more sharply in the coming months than previously forecast with employers shedding staff into next year, according to a Philadelphia Federal Reserve survey released on Tuesday
UPDATE 1-US economy seen slowing more sharply-Philly Fed
| Reuters
In the immortal words of Al Czervik:
"I'm tellin' ya, golf courses and cemeteries are the biggest wastes of prime real estate!"
All three of the courses mentioned have "Creek" in the name. Do any of them actually have a creek running through the course?
Yours Truly.
Jean Baudrillard
The generation that aspired to the golf lifestyle is mostly either ensconced or on the way out feet first.
I wonder what the demographics for gold are, both in terms of age and what professions favor it. Because if old bankers and real estate agents are the ones playing, yeah short golf equipment. But if it is popular among young tech folk, it could have a pretty good future after the present slump runs its course.
My wife works across the street from Callaway in Carlsbad...they just doubled their main building...have 2 others down the road. It will be interesting times for them in the near future for them to say the least. The new Carlsbad muni charges up to $150 for a game, and it is all hilly...what do I care, I don't golf!
Read what happened in Spain, golf clubs went bk, members stopped spending insane amounts entertaining, and the prices of houses on the golf course fell. Younger folks lost interest, and the number of golfers in
Best one I can think of was the purchase of pebble beach in the early 90s- they eventually sold it for less than half of what they paid. Lol. funny thing is they would have made out if they could have just sat tight until the next boom in california.
Just like when any boom ends, the bagholders bail at a loss.
Best quote:
"During the "Bubble Econonmy" there was a uniquely Japanese episode of speculation in golf club memberships. At the peak the total market value of golf club memberships was about $200 billion (that is billions not millions). There is even a Nikkei Golf Club Membership Index."
from JAPAN'S BUBBLE ECONOMY
Good stats:
Japan's golf index showing healthy upswing | The Australian
It took a long time to recover.
Someday this war's gonna end...
I think we have seen peak golf. It has been declining since approximately 2000.
Golf = Cow Pasture Pool
That's what Daddy used to say.
However, Conjure enjoys training on golf balls.
Conjure asks me to remind those who want THE TRUTH that he'll be available on the 18th.
And now for a (unfortunately subscription-only) trip down memory lane, courtesy of The Economist:
Premium content | Economist.com
GOLFONOMICS
Asia in the rough
Dec 18th 1997
From The Economist print edition
Many explanations have been advanced as to what went wrong with the East Asian miracle. Most of them can be summed up in one four-letter word: golf
(re)read the whole thing if you have access.
Cycling is the new Golf...or, at least that's what I read in Bicycle Magazine.
Golf haters, huh? Some of you anyway.
Reminded me of a NYT article from '06 that manifested the paper's golf bigotry.
To answer the nature area question - I have lived next to two nature preserves - one was immediately adjacent, and the other is about a mile and a half away. Both were owned/run by The Nature Conservancy.
Trail maintenance appears to be a volunteer effort, and land use exemptions provide nice tax shields, so I think costs are fairly low, certainly relative to course/greens maintenance!
I was less enthused about the one I lived immediately adjacent to, because that was in a much more heavily populated area and the sense of people tromping through the backyard was...uncomfortable (ironically so, since I was in the middle of a largish - ~160ac - farm). It felt more akin to living on a greenbelt/common area in a PUD than having a park nearby (I have lived on a common area as well, and found it less annoying - it's all about expectations). The one nearby now is the province only of serious outdoors nut & twig types, and they are not a nuisance (though some make their way onto my land, after passing through that of several neighbors).
Holy smokes, you guys must read Max's new blog on the shadow inventory issue:
Sacramento Real Estate Statistics: Insight into Shadow Inventory
Sacramento MLS shows around 14K listings but this new work shows there are at least 31K foreclosures.
"It's shameful that so many corporations make big profits and pay nothing to support our country," said Sen. Byron Dorgan, D-N.D., who asked for the GAO study with Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich.
To be fair that's because most of that goes to wages and is taxed via payrolls. Even money paid to contractors and such usually eventually gets taxed in that manner.
I had a little corporation for a while and there was never any intent to make profits, just earn money and pay wages and occasionally buy a few things to operate the business.
That doesn't mean the money going through the company wasn't ultimately taxed to oblivion. It was, and I can attest to that.
This is very different as I see it from the stuff going on with our Wall Street kleptocrat hedge fund managers paying 15% taxes etc. This is genuinely criminal IMO.
Rich,
Thats why when i look at GC lots, i choose the ones on the par 3 holes. That way I can mow them and still practice my short game.... plus every spring when they aerate the greens i use the plugs and put them in my yard so i can have a nice carpet lawn....
BTW that was mean more as a response to the 2/3 of US corporations don't pay corporate taxes comment. The complaints about foreign operations may be legit.
I see quite a few 20-40 year olds who I would guess many are tech employees on the driving range/golf course here in Santa Clara, CA.
Anyone have thoughts about how well skiing will hold up in the face of a recession? Between lift tickets, lessons, food, lodging and transportation, I always thought golf was pretty cheap compared to a weekend of skiing. Not sure how to play that though.
Oh and if you can find a par 3 with water then you have a back yard bass retreat and somewhere to train your labs..
also, its a good bet in the DC MSA that if it has forest, arbor, or agro, it has no trees at all...likely creeks and mills have neither, either.
The fourth course is, naturally, called Sh!t Creek.
Golf and skiing are the same business model; Real Estate. Neither one are usually able to pay the costs of operations.
can someone tell me if in second week of november, if my taxes will increase by 3000 bucks and then i will get a 1500 stimulus check again, only to hear 3 months later that miraculously my stimulus check didnt go towards purchases....????
anyone got any insight?
personally i think, as a cautious renter, that the HMI deduction should be eliminated and renters should be given 20K stimulus checks to go towards our 20% down...
I think this is great -
I love playing golf but I HATE those places where they make me drive a cart and pay $100....
Lookin' forward to all day all week twilight walking rates of $15,
You gotta love deflation. All the people you can't stand are getting hosed.
but we are DC we are immune to any RE bubbles, everything appreceiates in DC... I mean we are all govt and contractors... there is no above our means.... didnt we have diplomatic immunity from RE bubbles?
My neighbor farms about 500 acres of pine trees, pastures and hay. I wonder if venomous snakes would be considered a golf hazard (like the coral I came across last week).
The Silicon Valley area was overbuilt in golf courses years ago. Some municipalities built them thinking they'd enhance the community and at least pay for themselves, but not all have.
Personally I think the next generation would be ready for the birth of X-treme golfing -- played on rough countryside over and around steep hills and deep gullies. In other words, just the way the Scots invented it. Aerobic golf, yeah...
One way to finance the membership fee is to get an FHA 203(K) loan.
I think the house has to be located within 10 miles from the golf course.LOL
A few years back, I asked my developer son-in-law how they decided on a name for a development... he said "generally we name it for whatever USED to be here"
OT:
The idiotic and presumptious McCain thinks he speaks for all Americans. What a klutz!
Yahoo! 404 - Page Not Found
Golf would be fun if you could use air bazookas to shoot the balls instead of hitting with clubs. Something a la paintball.
I suspect the US lifestyle is headed downward: less golf, less eating out, less vacation, less leisure time pursuits, etc., etc., at least for the vaunted Middle Class. Long term trend.
Golf play has decreased almost every year since 1998 as I understand... People in the US are getting too old and too out of shape to spend hours on a hot course. The economy won't help things...
Fore!
Will they throw in a club membership if you buy the house?
jus me writes:
Golf would be fun if you could use air bazookas to shoot the balls instead of hitting with clubs. Something a la paintball.
Brilliant we could turn these courses into giant paintball battle fields I would pay for that...
Don't like the action today low volume small sell-off would have liked it to gap higher than sell down at the end of the day...
I used to work at a muni golf course in college. I've never been surrounded by a bigger group of bigoted, elitist losers in my life. Not to mention that golf courses are the biggest waste of water in the Arizona desert. Good riddance!
Didn't George Carlin have a skit about golf courses and the homeless? That works on so many levels here.
Marketwatch audio interview of Zillow Survey results.
Very interesting and worth a 5 minute listen.
http://www.marketwatch.com/tvradio/player.asp?siteid=yhoof&guid=%7B35E93530%2DC0D9%2D423E%2D8827%2D0AEC8D13382A%7D
I'm a golfer, but considering what environmental disasters most golf courses are I can't really mourn this development.
People that don't play golf but "aspire" to act like they do are the reason most people refuse to get involved in the sport IMHO.
I'd like to play pro-forma golf
Warren Buffet, speaking of proforma earnings during the Greenspan stock bubble.
just adding to ac's comment earlier about corp. tax...yup...the incentive for a small to mid-size corp (remember there are more of these than biggies...) is take every cent of revenue and whittle it down to zero each year...on the one hand, yes to avoid the tax, but on the other hand to spend in productive areas, R&D, infrastructure upgrades, materials, training, acquisitions...whatever. The net effect is that either stuff is being purchased to someone else's benefit (and taxed), and/or people are being paid to perform services (and taxed)...it's an incentive to spend because it will get taxed. My problem is with publicly traded companies that have boards with fiduciary responsibilities that plunder the coffers by giving out exorbitant bonuses verses strategic acquisitions, development of new products, etc...shareholder wealth has been transferred to officers without commensurate performance of the companies they run. Remember meritocracy...? Yep, with the lead pipe, in the drawing room,...
eff.
if you take golf too seriously , it can be a drag.
However, it is a nice way to spend a a few hours walking, talking and stretching.
Just this past weekend , I spent time with an old friend(who's relativley poor, btw) on a local bay area course, and he new many of the players who happened to be his childhood friends. I don't see much wrong with that.
If were going to lambast golf courses as wastes of water, can we also include, horse tracks, dog tracks, mega-casino facilities, baseball parks, football stadiums, public parks, soccer fields, ...
shall i continue?
We're in the process of watching the owners of one of the local courses trying to get the land around the course re-zoned to allow the course to be downsized from a full 18 holes to an executive course with houses. Turns out the great golf boom they were expecting didn't turn out so well. They've losing money on the course almost from day one. It's too bad. I like the course, but it's so hard to find the 5-6 hours to get out and play 18 holes and pay decent money for the privilege.
Paul,
That's golf big problem is time it takes to play 18.
Golf is fun and actually outside of surfing the toughest sport to learn and get real good at..
Most people who don't golf don't like it....
Bring on lower green fees..Lookout senior tour
They've losing money on the course almost from day one.
I doubt many courses are money makers. A course is a labor of love for the sponsors, welathly ones, usually. However, it should'nt be a surprise to readers here that courses were derivatized into a money maker(on paper, of course).
if these developments are hurting in established high-hat places like the DC suburbs, I wonder what's gonna happen to the new golf club developments in the far exurbs of Phoenix? Some of them got under-the-table water rights deals, which may not be renewed if they're not contributing to the tax base in the way they were promising.....
What a stupid question.
You have to have creeks on golf courses for two reasons: as a source to water the golf course and to catch balls the pro shop can recycle for profit.
If there's no creek there, you drill a well, pump up water, throw in some nice rocks, and drill a hole on the other side of the golf course for the water to drain into.
Creeks make the value of creek-front real estate lots sky-rocket (compared to creek-front lots with no creeks).
FORE(closure)...
SD July foreclosure (Notice of Trustee Sale) stats are out. We're a step away from the milestone of having he county produce more foreclosures (2385) than sales (around 2500 in June). That milestone will be breached when we see the Fall seasonal decline in sales, all other things being equal.
SD will increasingly see REO sales "crowd out" normal sales. That will force normal sellers to discount in order to have some chance of selling. Those discounts, in turn, will produce further discounting by REO sellers. The only "break" in this process is an increase in demand -- at lower prices -- from home buyers. We've seen such an increase in ultra-low end zip's like Oceanside, but those are markets where small homes can more readily be converted to rentals. Higher-end markets are not as friendly to cash investors looking for rental yield, so I'd expect the "break" in the discounting to occur much later in the process, at lower rental yields.
InnoVest's Foreclosure Forum
Dad used to own a small 9 hole course in Silicon Valley. A round of golf was pretty cheap then, the land was converted orchard, you could pick cherries as you walked.
The city built a premium 18 hole course with taxpayer money and put him out of business; oddly, he was able to sell the land for a hugely inflated price based on the value of all the "golf course" homes that surrounded it.
He retired to Florida and went sailing.
Here in Vegas, the Lake Las Vegas rich boy development went under, and has come back under BK. The interesting thing is that the BK filing revealed that LLV pays 2 million to the city for water a year. They irrigate the 3 golf courses, and also have a man-made lake. All in a desert that is desperate for water. The only source of water, Lake Mead, is falling faster than John Edward's pants. They will fail again. The course fee is about $300 at The Falls, and higher at the other 2. Just utter stupidity....
One of the saddest things to see is to go to a town in Mexico, where the peasant women and children tote water on their heads, and see some fat slob American riding around in a golf cart with all the sprinklers roaring.
It makes me wanna throw that tourist golfer out of the cart and make him tote water on his head for a few hours. It's a lot better exercise anyways.
In the United States, the number of people who play golf 25 times or more per year fell from 6.9 million in 2000 to 4.6 million in 2005,[12] according to the National Golf Foundation. The Foundation reported a smaller decline in the number who played golf at all; it fell from 30 million to 26 million over the same period.[12]
Golf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
cd,
I love playing golf for the challenge, and if you walk, there's a fair bit of benefit physically. But golf seems to have fallen off the back for me. Maybe it's just because when I want get outside I can get on my bike and go pedal around and it doesn't cost me anything.
Marketwatch:
Shares of Los Angeles-based Vineyard Bancshares fell 45% Tuesday after the company said in a regulatory filing that customers have recently withdrawn "significant" deposits. "Negative publicity relating to our financial results and the financial results of other financial institutions, together with the seizure of IndyMac Bank by federal regulators in July 2008, has caused a significant amount of customer deposit withdrawals, thus affecting our liquidity and our ability to meet our obligations as they have come due," the company said in its 10q quarterly SEC filing Monday. Vineyard said that it is seeking a waiver from the FDIC to raise new funds via brokered deposits, and if it doesn't get it, it won't be able to raise money that way."
It was the negative publicity that did it:)
paul, that's been my life long dilemma... golf, surf or ride.
each offer's it's unique benefits.
the object is to retire really young so you have enough time to do each, every day.
sd and HI have that covered
Fed Fisher: Economy Will 'Broach Zero Growth' In 2nd Half-Report
The NYT article about Peak Golf seems pretty good. It's actually got numbers, and they show a serious decrease from 2000 to 2005.
Do your HOA fees have to cover the golf course when it can't break even?
I play golf often here in Central Fl. The price has come down everywhere. I can now play early in the morning for 20-30 bucks. It used to be a lot more expensive. And you dont have to wait much anymore.
ANYONE HAVE A GOOD BRITISH POUND SHORT??????
ETF I MEAN
t_E
it's always like that in florida in the summer.
I remember doral has deals for $60...if you play mid august in 90 degree heat.
let us know the price in feb!
What's wrong with FXB, tim?
ANYONE HAVE A GOOD BRITISH POUND SHORT??????
amy winehouse
What's wrong with FXB, tim?
I meant w/o buying puts but that's all there is I guess
"Golf is fun and actually outside of surfing the toughest sport to learn and get real good at"
Uh, I expect you mean individual, recreational sports, because baseball is a heckuva lot harder than either.
"wastes of water, can we also include ... mega-casino facilities, ... public parks"
Sure, the Bellagio wastes a bunch of water, but I didn't realize that super-deluxe fountains were required for a casino. As to public parks, why do we need to water them? And if so, why not grey water, as many places in NorCal? Would that be a waste of grey water, too?
"I wonder how the cost of maintaining a similar amount of land as a natural area, and maybe putting in hiking trails and some benches, but charging nothing, would compare? Would more people use such a space?"
That sounds like a park!
"Do your HOA fees have to cover the golf course when it can't break even?"
Generally the HOA is completley seprate from golf course operations. The golf operats as it's own corporate identity. The HOA maintians it's self seperatly with a different managemnt agent generally and a different governing structure. There is no way HOA fees could cover the costs of running even a poor course much less one you would want to play. Usually the homeowners aren't even mebers of the club. That is an extra fee. Sometimes discouted for residents.
I' calling bottom in gold (today) and oil (probably today w/ move up tomorrow)...
B&B, you're the best!
completely off topic... unless they convert greens into, well, green.
this is especially for Currently Smoking Cannabis.
from Minyanville:
The Cheech & Chong Stock Market Indicator
The Cheech & Chong Stock Market Indicator-Minyanville
All three of the courses mentioned have "Creek" in the name. Do any of them actually have a creek running through the course?
Sh*t Creek, for those who bought.
Stocks way down. End of the bear market rally, or not yet?
Stocks way down. End of the bear market rally, or not yet?
Low volume sell off tread carefully...
The S&P has to go down below 1280 before this uptrend is broken IMO, otherwise higher lows higher lows cont...
The sec expiration today made SKF look like a tom watson putt-strong...
Zaleriana-baseball is tough but you get to know who the opposing teams 3,4,5 pitchers or 5-9 hitters are..
Nature throws up some pretty insane surprises especially in surfing..
Facing Randy Johnson or a 25Ft bomb at Mavericks or 15 FT at Pipeline could both kill ya but I have a feeling Randy won't try to drown you...
OT
Didn't the whole Russia/Georgia thing seem too orchestrated?
None of the big world powers seemed to flinch much or get too agitated. Bush kept smiling from his seat in China.
The market yawned.
It makes me feel like the blogger was right who said Russia had a "chore" to take care of in Georgia (with the world's blessing) before the big action starts in the Persian Gulf.
Is it true that our fleet is assembling in the Persian Gulf to blockade Iran as part of an international effort, right after the Olympics (or the swimming portion)?
It makes me feel sad about those Georgian civilians who got torched to help Russia prove its authority. But I guess somebody's gotta do it.
Golf, the sport, will always be with us. It's fun, a challenge, humbling,fresh air, etc. Golf, the wannabe conduit to social validation, will die. Wannabe's don't need 18 holes, just the first hole so others can observe them golfing! Once that hole is over, the rest is pretty much "out in the woods", no opportunities for posturing.
Damn looks like another up day tomorrow...weak sell off can't break that upward trend line. S**T
Golf and skiing not same model. A ski mountain really has no alternative economic use.
From Fed's Fisher (MW):
"We go through these periods of correction. It's not unhealthy. It's the way capitalism works."
So bailouts are supposed to be part of capitalism?
Atlantic City is proving that entertainment spending is very weak, with July really stinking:
http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/186/story/227118.html
F*ING ST I need to contact my spiritual adviser...
yogi writes:
Golf and skiing not same model. A ski mountain really has no alternative economic use.
that's what we use to think
"We go through these periods of correction. It's not unhealthy. It's the way capitalism works."
So bailouts are supposed to be part of capitalism?
If I'm thinking of the right person, Fisher's been one of the more sane people.
But yeah in this case bailouts and capitalism seem at odds.
I think what it comes down to is people can't handle the roller coaster ride that is capitalism, and the politicians know this.
Even though time and time again the basic ideas behind capitalism seem to be vindicated (e.g. China today).
But success seems to so often sew the seeds of it's own demise because the successful grow tired of the stress and uncertainty that is inherent in obtaining that success.
So political and financial structures begin developing in such a way that they may ironically institutionalize loss of that success while perversely claiming to insure against just that sort of outcome.
Bless you, WV hick.
yogi writes:
"Golf and skiing not same model. A ski mountain really has no alternative economic use."
Until they come in with the heavy equipment and tear the side of the mountain away for strip mining.
Need...more...power...
Not into the game of golf. I have always had a hard time calling it a sport. This is another sign that Americans will have to live within their true financial means. Ouch it will be a painful transition but much needed.
Dammit Why can't they break the damn trend? Where is all the damn volume???
Wow, all these comments from every direction. Let's start with context and bona fides; the Dawg lives on a SoCal golf course and has a ski cabin in the mountains. The big picture big deal is it isn't about the course or the slopes. The houses in trouble nearly all over-improved, refi'd or traded recently. In other words it isn't about the underlying value but rather a newfound unwillingness to pay for the bagholding idjit's bad choices.
Huge swaths of not recreationally adjacent properties are imploding but no one seems all that interested. Who cares that hundreds of regular houses are being lost when dozens of high end homes are in trouble.
The LATimes has an interesting if deeply flawed analysis of "underwaterness." Apparently only 1% of those who bought in 2003 owe more than their imputed equity but 71% of anything bought in 2006 is underwater.
How upside-down is L.A.? | L.A. Land | Los Angeles Times
Bloomberg has a similar post: One Third of New Owners Owe More Than House Is Worth (Update1) - Bloomberg.com
Credit bubbles are not geographically preferential in their destructiveness.
Irrigation - especially golf courses - is major reason that Minneapolis (with water everywhere) has a daily per-capita water use of 145 gallons while Phoenix uses 226 and conservation-minded Tucson uses 160.
you see Mer closed below 25 looks like Temasek looses again...
Ah, pasture pool. Enjoyed it as a youth.
Best round was at 8pm 1962 with Sharon. Played strip golf for the last 9. I got lucky on the 18th.
I'm not tell'n!
"I always thought golf was pretty cheap compared to a weekend of skiing. Not sure how to play that though.
Dave"
Both sports take along time and are expensive. I'd focus on investing on companies that produce cheap sport products for sports that don't take a long time to play. Suggestion: Campbell's Soup (CBP) for kick-the-can.
Aspirational. A nice word to describe the lifestyle of many No. Va. people. My nephews, both under the age of 7, take golf classes. Golf is the big thing at my daughters HS. That and lacrosse.
Mcmansions, German cars, and Rolexes. No. Va. turned into So. Cal. somewhere in the 80's when all the Reagan money came flooding in.
Personally, I hate golf, and never wear a watch or a cell phone (almost). I may be the only senior level IT person left in America that can say that.
"Golf and skiing not same model. A ski mountain really has no alternative economic use"
I didn't mean to say that a golf course and a mountain are exactly the same thing. What I meant to say is that both businesses'revenues are from RE sales and leasing as much as or more than on usage rentals.
Lotta golf haters here, it figures. I started playing golf in 1971, when I was 10. It was for fun on a public par-3 course. I graduated to longer public courses as I got older and better at the game. I was invited to and played at two private clubs and disliked the atmosphere at both intensely. It was all equipment porn (hey honey, look at my new carbon-fiber shaft!), drinking, betting, and lying about how much money you make. Almost nobody there cared about actually playing the game unless there was money on the line. Still go to public courses now and then, but not like when I was younger. Taking 5-6 hours to finish 18 is madness. I could WALK a decent length 18 in 4-4.5 hours. The courses that required driving a cart drove me batty. It actually slowed me up on some courses.
Suggestion: Campbell's Soup (CBP) for kick-the-can.
Elvis | 08.12.08 - 4:16 pm | #
Don't forget Campbell's:
That's the kind of diversification you need in tomorrow's economy.
I wonder what the impact of Wii on the generation of today's kids will be, in the context of golf. Will it make them more likely to take it up when they get older, or will the real thing seem like a gigantic, expensive pain in the ass?
Golf courses designed in the last 10 yrs are generally too difficult for the average golfer. The builders design them for hard core players who don't want a course that is too easy. But when somebody that plays once or twice a month goes on one of these courses, they wind up shooting double par-140 or something. Raised greens, narrow fairways, water in front of the tee all quickly kill off enthusiasm. When you hit a clean 7 iron and it bounces off a green raised 6 feet above the fringe, you want to hit something with your club.
You have to play 2 to 3 times a week for a couple of years unless you are athletically gifted to come close to par on most newer courses.
"I have a feeling Randy won't try to drown you"
Okay, maybe (maybe) I'll give you surfing, cd, but golf ain't harder than baseball.
Tim writes:
Dammit Why can't they break the damn trend? Where is all the damn volume???
On the golf course?
A funny story about golf courses from a couple decades ago...
First off - I HATE GOLF - always have.
Anyway I was traveling with an avid golfer on a business trip - it was during one of the 1980s recessions and the topic turned to his country club (very posh - very near bk due to high rollers tanking)... he was morose.
I told him the rural CC near me did go BK and was for sale - 18 hole course and they were only asking $250K for it (something like $1000/acre)... he asked why I didn't buy it - good GOD man, you could own a whole course by yourself - your own course!!!
I told him I was thinking about it - but thought it would be a hassle to plow it all up... all those bumps & trees would have to go... plus the land wasn't that great (I knew the area - kinda sandy) - there were better parcels if I wanted one that bad.
He got real quiet & looked at me... you mean you'd turn it back into a farm? Why would you do that?
I said - ya, I'd try to grow beens & corn on it... why would I want a money losing golf course?
It was then time to change the topic...