Hello CR - I tell folks my office is where my laptop & cell phone are. There are more & more 'dispersed workers' just like me. I run into them everyday. With that as a backdrop, I can see absorption staying low or even negative for quite a while.
dryfly, I agree. Technology minimizes the need to add office space - and I think businesses are much more cautious to add space these days. I think that Grugg&Ellis forecast will prove to be optimistic especially on the time frame - my guess is the vacancy rate will rise in 2010 too.
At least (based on lending and architect surveys) the building of new offices will slow sharply later this year.
girlbear, the strip mall vacancy rate is lower than the office space rate, but rising much faster. I think that is going to get really ugly.
The media really seems to have finally gotten jiggy with digging into all the corners of this mess. Getting hard to keep up with all the dots, much less connect them all.
To Stinky re. Fireworks Sales. I posted last weekend that our sales were off but were seeing a huge increase in credit card use. Volume has rebounded this week with continued use of credit cards. This is in a rural area of small towns and cities with slowing economic growth. My sense is that there is some real nervousness with kind of a last hurrah feeling about this July 4.
God bless America!
My sense is that there is some real nervousness with kind of a last hurrah feeling about this July 4.
A lot of municipalities are canceling their public fireworks displays. This whole change-of-living-standards thing is starting to hit home. But do you think any public official has the cajones to declare it?
Robert Bach, Senior VP & Chief Economist, Grubb & Ellis TOPIC: Commercial Real Estate: The Next Shoe to Drop?
For apartments, the increase in the renter pool resulting from rising residential foreclosures will be offset by an increase in shadow supply (unsold condos and foreclosed houses being offered for rent). The economic recovery, when it comes, could be shallow, however.
PROGRAM RECAP May 28, 2008 Melbourne, Florida
Please visit SpaceCoastEDC.org
"This whole change-of-living-standards thing is starting to hit home."
As part of my psych training, I'm taking a pair of classes this summer. Tonight, the social worker prof was listing potential environmental stressors to be aware of and cited the poor economy, a comment that literally generated cheering and even an "Amen." The other summer class I'm taking is in infant mental health, and again, a prof mentioned the economy and foreclosures as stressful events for families with young children. This stuff is really sinking in if it's made its way into the curricula.
The Forbes piece dingojoe linked is truly scary.
That public pensions are largely underfunded is not news, but how badly some have been burned by CRE opp. funds is news to me. Man, there are going to be armies of pissed-off boomers finding out their "mandated"pensions just aren't there.
in many cases states and municipalities will respond to the pension short falls by deducting much more money from employees paychecks
many if not most of the states west of the Mississippi deduct 2 to 5% of employees paycheck each pay period as the "employees contribution" to the pension plan
that percent has , over the years increased and decreased in response to return on investment.
looks like the employee contribution will be going wayyyyy up
Anyone needing proof of the CR meltdown just has to drive on Wilshire in Los Angeles - from Santa Monica to Koreatown just about every office building has a BIG "for lease" sign on it. The amount of empty space is epic. And there is absolutely no sign any of it will ever fill up again for a good long time.
dryfly: I have been getting the impression that for a not unsubstantial amount of time your office (i.e. the laptop and cell phone) are inside your car heading down the freeway.
Even a job description as "detached" as yours comes with substantial resource consumption (when I take your point to mean "office lite"). As literally a middleman (no negative connotations implied), you have probably minimal face time requirements among "white collar" job descriptions.
I don't think the typical office "business process" would work in a "working from home" paradigm, at scale. Yes of course there are professions that are largely about "execution" and "standard" process, and it's more a sliding scale than a yes/no thing.
I have seen multi-site and even multi-building organizations (admittedly mostly R&D). Most of the useful interaction is in person, and at least much if not most is people running into each other on the isle, in the break room, etc. In short, informal and ad hoc interaction in a context that makes it clear it is not intrusive. It is not necessarily that much in-depth information is exchanged that way, but this is how often communication is initiated.
It is simply impossible to compensate for spatial proximity with phone and email, even between 2 participants. For more than 3 people, forget it.
And I'm not even going to start on the social component that is way underestimated.
Anybody in sales in the next 2 years will barely be able to hot desk for 2 reasons:
1: Why pay to watch slackers play solitaire?
2: By having offices, sales types get fucked on the home office deduction.
You show up once a week(twice at most if your bosses are idiots) and everything else is done by email/txt/ voicemail except coming in to pick up samples and flirt with the soon to be lonely secretaries.
I'm in on a project that could be generating 9 digit revenues in a couple of years and aside from a 500 ft office in Dayton (for now) everything else will either be virtual, commissioned or contracted out(document storage & accounting.)
CRE in PHX turned fugly in the last month; there's always signs here and there but they've really popped up like weeds from the winter rains. I knew it was gonna be bad but if this is any indication this is RTC cubed.
I thought I was the one leading the charge on the commercial stuff (at least in L.A.) It started by reporting on the Robinson's May building on Wilshire... the one that was purchased for about $40M and then resold to the Candy brothers a couple of years later for, what was it, oh yes $500 Million Qatari dollars.
Or looking into that little buying spree by Dr. Younan, or how bout the folks that started doing things like 5-6% actual cap rates on institutional quality office buildings through the magic of cmbs?
Eh, nobody, except a few wonks, was thinking about this until Dr. Doomini
posted his 12 step program on our door with a big knife.
So... whose gunna buy the Tribune property in downtown l.a.? Some are thinking that this sale was Sam Zell's endgame.
I guess I wouldn't want to read that if I'd just paid the most for an office building in the history of the US.
Managers at Boston Properties, which could close on its $3.5 billion acquisition of New Yorks General Motors Building as early as next week, think Manhattan office rents are going nowhere but up.
The whole pricing paradigm of the New York market has fundamentally changed and we are comfortable with that, Douglas Linde, president of Boston Properties, said at the annual forum of National Association of Real Estate Investment Trusts in New York Wednesday.
I love that the management of Boston Properties is out there saying prices in NYC only go up and that there has been a fundamental change in the markets.
IYR is holding a lot of Boston Properties.
They also get in the "they aren't making any more NYC land" argument. They didn't want to miss any of the classic arguments for overpaying in a bubble.
Our county and state gov't have been building an truly huge and staggeringly ugly office park virtually in my backyard -- once one of the prettiest places near Pgh.
Now flattened and paved for buildings so unloveable even Kunstler would be at a loss for words.
Ok, also although it is 1 mile off a 4-lane road, this road is a 5-mile a boondoggle that only connects to two lane roads, which are a min of 7-miles from another 4-laner.
So in general it is, given the current discussions, absolutely as bad planning you have ever seen. Everything about unthinking sprawl development is contained within this one project.
But at least the 10's of millions of subsidies for this thing are going to help small, hungry American companies that can use a hand up. Lemme see, there is Siemens and Phillips there for starters.
Those are small, hungry, American companies, aren't they?
18% is probably optimistic if new space coming on the market is taken into account. CRE is going to get hit very hard; I fully expect entire projects to go empty just like residential.
In our area I'm noticing empty office spaces formerly occupied by realtors. There's also the empty WaMu outlet in a local strip mall. The housing bubble had some major office space requirements, but that was then.
Maybe they can just rotate all the laggards out of the dow 30. POOF! an overnight solution to the bear market!
"Will the last person in the strip mall please turn out the lights?"
No Loans at Mountain 1st Means Bank Credit Drying Up
No Loans at Mountain 1st Means Bank Credit Drying Up (Update2) - Bloomberg.com
Hello CR - I tell folks my office is where my laptop & cell phone are. There are more & more 'dispersed workers' just like me. I run into them everyday. With that as a backdrop, I can see absorption staying low or even negative for quite a while.
any reports on fireworks sales?
dryfly, I agree. Technology minimizes the need to add office space - and I think businesses are much more cautious to add space these days. I think that Grugg&Ellis forecast will prove to be optimistic especially on the time frame - my guess is the vacancy rate will rise in 2010 too.
At least (based on lending and architect surveys) the building of new offices will slow sharply later this year.
girlbear, the strip mall vacancy rate is lower than the office space rate, but rising much faster. I think that is going to get really ugly.
Best Wishes.
I think that is going to get really ugly.
Best Wishes.
Calculated Risk
Yes, yessss. Welcome to the dark side. We've been waiting here at the Starbucks for you. Oh wait...
Well, at least Bach is no Yun.
Dawg,
No "oh wait" about it, since a lot of Starbucks are going dark these days.
Office Vacancy Rates Rising
CR, boy, the hits just keep on comin'.
When does the party music start?
Rob Dawg, ROFLOL. Of course I was leading the charge on the CRE bust. So I was waiting for you!
Best Wishes.
my guess is the vacancy rate will rise in 2010 too.
About the time that the Indians and Chinese are ready to off-shore.
And who will end up holding the bag as CRE tanks? Could it be pension funds?
The Other Real Estate Disaster
The Other Real Estate Disaster - Forbes.com
The media really seems to have finally gotten jiggy with digging into all the corners of this mess. Getting hard to keep up with all the dots, much less connect them all.
Waiting in the dark at Starbucks with all of you? Geez. Is that Tanta over there eating the espresso beans?
The dark side just isn't what it used to be.
Do I smell cigar smoke?
To Stinky re. Fireworks Sales. I posted last weekend that our sales were off but were seeing a huge increase in credit card use. Volume has rebounded this week with continued use of credit cards. This is in a rural area of small towns and cities with slowing economic growth. My sense is that there is some real nervousness with kind of a last hurrah feeling about this July 4.
God bless America!
My sense is that there is some real nervousness with kind of a last hurrah feeling about this July 4.
A lot of municipalities are canceling their public fireworks displays. This whole change-of-living-standards thing is starting to hit home. But do you think any public official has the cajones to declare it?
Standard of living to fall for at least a year - Telegraph
Many people still see this a temporary blip...
Robert Bach, Senior VP & Chief Economist, Grubb & Ellis TOPIC: Commercial Real Estate: The Next Shoe to Drop?
For apartments, the increase in the renter pool resulting from rising residential foreclosures will be offset by an increase in shadow supply (unsold condos and foreclosed houses being offered for rent). The economic recovery, when it comes, could be shallow, however.
PROGRAM RECAP May 28, 2008 Melbourne, Florida
Please visit SpaceCoastEDC.org
"This whole change-of-living-standards thing is starting to hit home."
As part of my psych training, I'm taking a pair of classes this summer. Tonight, the social worker prof was listing potential environmental stressors to be aware of and cited the poor economy, a comment that literally generated cheering and even an "Amen." The other summer class I'm taking is in infant mental health, and again, a prof mentioned the economy and foreclosures as stressful events for families with young children. This stuff is really sinking in if it's made its way into the curricula.
The Forbes piece dingojoe linked is truly scary.
That public pensions are largely underfunded is not news, but how badly some have been burned by CRE opp. funds is news to me. Man, there are going to be armies of pissed-off boomers finding out their "mandated"pensions just aren't there.
fried
in many cases states and municipalities will respond to the pension short falls by deducting much more money from employees paychecks
many if not most of the states west of the Mississippi deduct 2 to 5% of employees paycheck each pay period as the "employees contribution" to the pension plan
that percent has , over the years increased and decreased in response to return on investment.
looks like the employee contribution will be going wayyyyy up
Anyone needing proof of the CR meltdown just has to drive on Wilshire in Los Angeles - from Santa Monica to Koreatown just about every office building has a BIG "for lease" sign on it. The amount of empty space is epic. And there is absolutely no sign any of it will ever fill up again for a good long time.
dryfly: I have been getting the impression that for a not unsubstantial amount of time your office (i.e. the laptop and cell phone) are inside your car heading down the freeway.
Even a job description as "detached" as yours comes with substantial resource consumption (when I take your point to mean "office lite"). As literally a middleman (no negative connotations implied), you have probably minimal face time requirements among "white collar" job descriptions.
I don't think the typical office "business process" would work in a "working from home" paradigm, at scale. Yes of course there are professions that are largely about "execution" and "standard" process, and it's more a sliding scale than a yes/no thing.
I have seen multi-site and even multi-building organizations (admittedly mostly R&D). Most of the useful interaction is in person, and at least much if not most is people running into each other on the isle, in the break room, etc. In short, informal and ad hoc interaction in a context that makes it clear it is not intrusive. It is not necessarily that much in-depth information is exchanged that way, but this is how often communication is initiated.
It is simply impossible to compensate for spatial proximity with phone and email, even between 2 participants. For more than 3 people, forget it.
And I'm not even going to start on the social component that is way underestimated.
A lot of municipalities are canceling their public fireworks displays
$2B/day trade imbalance ==> NO INDEPENDENCE FOR YOU!!!
Anyone needing proof of the CR meltdown just has to drive on Wilshire in Los Angeles
When I was in Tokyo in the 90s I saw several buildings converted to apartments.
Kinda goofy looking (the windows were all wrong ), but just sayin'. I lived in a UCLA dorm highrise for a year and the view was f-in spectacular.
Anybody in sales in the next 2 years will barely be able to hot desk for 2 reasons:
1: Why pay to watch slackers play solitaire?
2: By having offices, sales types get fucked on the home office deduction.
You show up once a week(twice at most if your bosses are idiots) and everything else is done by email/txt/ voicemail except coming in to pick up samples and flirt with the soon to be lonely secretaries.
I'm in on a project that could be generating 9 digit revenues in a couple of years and aside from a 500 ft office in Dayton (for now) everything else will either be virtual, commissioned or contracted out(document storage & accounting.)
CRE in PHX turned fugly in the last month; there's always signs here and there but they've really popped up like weeds from the winter rains. I knew it was gonna be bad but if this is any indication this is RTC cubed.
I thought I was the one leading the charge on the commercial stuff (at least in L.A.) It started by reporting on the Robinson's May building on Wilshire... the one that was purchased for about $40M and then resold to the Candy brothers a couple of years later for, what was it, oh yes $500 Million Qatari dollars.
Or looking into that little buying spree by Dr. Younan, or how bout the folks that started doing things like 5-6% actual cap rates on institutional quality office buildings through the magic of cmbs?
Eh, nobody, except a few wonks, was thinking about this until Dr. Doomini
posted his 12 step program on our door with a big knife.
So... whose gunna buy the Tribune property in downtown l.a.? Some are thinking that this sale was Sam Zell's endgame.
Now we will have falling rentable incomes as well as falling house prices.
Dear Uncle Billy
Your comment about Zell is interesting. I think he purchased the Tribune Co. for the CR not the papers.
Of course, the endgame may come around and bite him.
Who will buy the Tribune Tower on Michigan Ave.?
Regards,
The dark side just isn't what it used to be.
I gotta remember that one!
Yossarian, on another topic, I hear Summer finally arrived in Portland. Huah!
I guess I wouldn't want to read that if I'd just paid the most for an office building in the history of the US.
Managers at Boston Properties, which could close on its $3.5 billion acquisition of New Yorks General Motors Building as early as next week, think Manhattan office rents are going nowhere but up.
The whole pricing paradigm of the New York market has fundamentally changed and we are comfortable with that, Douglas Linde, president of Boston Properties, said at the annual forum of National Association of Real Estate Investment Trusts in New York Wednesday.
I love that the management of Boston Properties is out there saying prices in NYC only go up and that there has been a fundamental change in the markets.
IYR is holding a lot of Boston Properties.
They also get in the "they aren't making any more NYC land" argument. They didn't want to miss any of the classic arguments for overpaying in a bubble.
Our county and state gov't have been building an truly huge and staggeringly ugly office park virtually in my backyard -- once one of the prettiest places near Pgh.
Now flattened and paved for buildings so unloveable even Kunstler would be at a loss for words.
Ok, also although it is 1 mile off a 4-lane road, this road is a 5-mile a boondoggle that only connects to two lane roads, which are a min of 7-miles from another 4-laner.
So in general it is, given the current discussions, absolutely as bad planning you have ever seen. Everything about unthinking sprawl development is contained within this one project.
But at least the 10's of millions of subsidies for this thing are going to help small, hungry American companies that can use a hand up. Lemme see, there is Siemens and Phillips there for starters.
Those are small, hungry, American companies, aren't they?
[office] vacancy is expected to peak at 18% by the end of 2009.
Wow... I thought I was bearish. 18% is huge!
So does that mean that Starbucks has to close 18% of their stores? (3X their current planned closings.)
Got Popcorn?
Neil
18% is probably optimistic if new space coming on the market is taken into account. CRE is going to get hit very hard; I fully expect entire projects to go empty just like residential.
In our area I'm noticing empty office spaces formerly occupied by realtors. There's also the empty WaMu outlet in a local strip mall. The housing bubble had some major office space requirements, but that was then.