The best bailout is one where the government helps people move out of the houses that they cannot afford with a minimal of damage to the social fabric.
A while back in a previous thread, someone indicated the bill might include a property tax deduction for home owners who do not itemize because they have modest or no mortgage. Did this make it in?
Am I reading it wrong, or did they extend the 3 years loss carryback for builders to 4 years and give it to everybody? That's going to create a massive deficit increase. And it'll be specially targeted to keep value-losing business open longer, to destroy even more wealth!
This is so distorted with chaos and so engulfed in boondoggle bullshit that it is truly a great monumental model for demonstrating that this Congress and Senate are the worst group of American representatives in our history -- the polls and rating do not lie!!
This is a tribute to lobby groups and hidden agendas that seek to distort the foreclosure/subprime issue at hand -- which is linked directly to the collusion from these puppets -- who now dance away from the reality of the lack of regulations and enforcement during this Bush era of The Ownership Society.
Writing retarded legislation that spins off in a thousand directions to distort the responsibility of these people, is sheer madness!
WTF: Although HUD had previously argued that it could continue to allow seller-funded down-payment programs by introducing risk-based pricing, Congress has not acted to allow HUD to charge riskier borrowers higher rates. The FHA Mutual Mortgage Insurance Fund now faces losses that would require taxpayer subsidies of $1.4 billion in fiscal year 2009, HUD said.
As a comment noted above, the whole point of the bill is to help stop a deflationary spiral working outwards from house prices into the rest of the economy.
The Fed will play a critical role. As I've mentioned before, I think Bernanke lays out his entire anti-deflation playbook in his 2002 speech. It is well worth reading multiple times. Located here:
Rob,
I was pissed my rep voted for the bill. I'm guessing they are just trying to protect our state from a $20B deficit... we're probably going to be there the next time the accountants do the math... no?
Chase Sucks writes:
A while back in a previous thread, someone indicated the bill might include a property tax deduction for home owners who do not itemize because they have modest or no mortgage. Did this make it in?
yes.. it is in Sec. 3012.
If I'm reading correctly, it is capped at $500 per individual or $1,000 per couple.
"Is there any reason why the American people should be taxed to guarantee the debts of banks, any more than they should be taxed to guarantee the debts of other institutions, including merchants, the industries, and the mills of the country?"
Senator Carter Glass, Author of the Banking Act of 1933
Ahem, I believe that the taxpayers ought to send the bailout costs to Phil Gramm, Bill Clinton, Robert Rubin
and every greedy s.o.b congressman who voted for the repeal in 1999 of the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933.
As for the morons who passed this current bailout fiasco, Thomas Paine says it clear & loud from the grave:
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead."
Come election-day anyone wanna hand out, "I was watching 'American Idol', while Rome was burning..." t-shirts? Seems apropos to an electorate that consistently re-elects people who have such a low-approval rating...
I'm not certain on my reading of any of it, but I did notice a couple interesting items the money section is Title IV.
From Title IV Hope for Homeowners
Section 257
(e) Eligibility
(1) (B):
Mortgage debt to income > 31% [Suspect this covers most borrowers]
(2) (B)
Refinance amount limited to 90% of current appraised value [Ouch, but cheating here will be very tempting]
(3)
All fees and penalties waived and forgiven [Ouch]
(4)
Second liens extinguised, but shared appreciate is provided for (defined later) [Ouch]
(7)
No new 2nd liens for 5 yrs [Punch bowl is officially taken away]
(9)
Full doc with income based on IRS returns [Could make re-underwriting tough? Or not, saw no mention on upper allowable DTI.]
(11)
Primary AND SOLE residence [Huge temptation to cheat on this one too]
(i) Insurance premium
(1) 3 points up front
(2) 1.5 points every year after [Is that alot? Seems like a lot. But I've never bought PMI]
(k) Shared appreciation
(1) 10%/yr for first 5 yrs, 50-50 thereafter -- [Little confused by this, are FHA & lender sharing the appreciation??? does the owner really get nothing?]
I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God.
I wasn't aware that Bush & Cheney were actually elected, as the S.CT acted to put Bush & Cheney in office in 2000 in a decision the court has since declared to have "no precedential value" (plus the notable voting irregularities in FL & OH), and, in 2004, there were again such marked irregularities in vote counting & registration in OH, FL & one or two other states to make it impossible to determine (imo) whether Bush won either the popular vote or the needed number of electoral votes. I sure didn't vote for Bush in 2000 or 2004.
As for the rest of them, how much choice do you get in who you vote for at the federal level? Doesn't seem to be too many useful/knowledgeable candidates for Congressional rep or Senator where I live. The system of voting in the UK, Germany, et al (but not Italy) is starting to look pretty good to me--a wider representation of political viewpoints seems possible in those systems & they seem to have stronger limits on candidate/election financing in those nations. Perhaps someone w/more knowledge of their Constitutions or political structures can explain how they manage it.
Pension Protection Act is 1000 pages and no one read that either and ahhh, ummm, we have this problem with Department Of Labor and The Ownership Society and SIFMA and the issue of pension funds being exploited by hedge funds.... no one gives a shit, get over this legal blundering!
The really shady stuff (like earning deduction claw-backs) is going to be in the ammendments. Haven't gone through them. If anyone can cite anything egregious please do so.
If I'm reading correctly, it is capped at $500 per individual or $1,000 per couple.
ah, never mind. To a Georgist that's about right since aggressive land-value taxes should fall on those with above-median land tenancies, not below-median.
" FHA Manufactured Housing Loan Modernization Act of 2008 - (Sec. 143) Amends the NHA to exempt a manufactured home or its lot from the prohibition against FHA insurance exceeding 10% of the total amount of a financial institution's loans, advances of credit, and purchases."
I live in the south were there are a lot of mobilehome + land packages sold. This seems to be a big givaway to the mobilehome plus land dealers. They generally set up the land, home, and financing as a package. Something like a car dealership does. Limiting an instutition to 10% of deals forces more people into the transaction. I could see a corrupt mobilehome dealer paring with a corrupt financing arm and creating a huge mess.
Are people even aware the FHA insures no-down mobile home deals?? I wonder what the default rate is compared to regular no-down housing deals.
The appreciation is shared between the "Secretary" (the FHA?) and the "mortgagor" (ie, the borrower) for the first five years.
`(1) FIVE-YEAR PHASE-IN FOR EQUITY AS A RESULT OF SALE OR REFINANCING- For each eligible mortgage insured under this section, the Secretary and the mortgagor of such mortgage shall, upon any sale or disposition of the property to which such mortgage relates, or upon the subsequent refinancing of such mortgage, be entitled to the following with respect to any equity created as a direct result of such sale or refinancing:
`(A) If such sale or refinancing occurs during the period that begins on the date that such mortgage is insured and ends 1 year after such date of insurance, the Secretary shall be entitled to 100 percent of such equity.
`(B) If such sale or refinancing occurs during the period that begins 1 year after such date of insurance and ends 2 years after such date of insurance, the Secretary shall be entitled to 90 percent of such equity and the mortgagor shall be entitled to 10 percent of such equity.
etc.
There is a provision for the Secretary to allocate some of his/her share to the earlier subordinate lien holders who got little or nothing during the refinance.
(i) IN GENERAL- The Board shall establish standards and policies that will allow for the payment to the holder of any existing subordinate mortgage of a portion of any future appreciation in the property secured by such eligible mortgage that is owed to the Secretary pursuant to subsection (k).
"(Sec. 1013) Extends through 2009 the tax credit for residential energy efficient property expenditures. Repeals the $2,000 limitation on the tax credit for solar electric property. Allows an offset against the AMT of tax credit amounts."
So is there a limit one can spend on solar energy w'n one's property?
If I spend 100K on my McMansion how much in tax deduction can i claim?
(anyone, i am not a tax person ;( )
"(Sec. 149) Applies the prohibition against kickbacks and unearned fees ...(RESPA) to each sale of a manufactured home financed with an FHA-insured loan"
So the anti-kickback rules didn't apply to mobilehomes until now??
"Prohibits granting FHA ... made to finance a manufactured home intended to be located in a manufactured home community pursuant to a lease, unless the lease meets specified leasehold requirements, including an initial, renewable term of at least three years."
So FHA will insure mobilehome loans for mobile homes in space rent trailor parks with a 3 year land lease!!??
I just pulled up discussion from House floor on Wednesday. Found this:
Finance Committee Chairman FRANK and Ways and Means Committee Chairman RANGEL have asked the nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation to make available to the public a technical explanation of this legislation. The technical explanation, JCX6308, expresses the committees understanding and legislative intent behind this important legislation. It is available on the Joint Committee
on Taxation Web site, at www.jct.gov.
Following the link there is a table regarding revenue, etc. Looks like most of the bill will be paid by:
-Require information reporting on payment card and third party payment transactions.
- Delay for two years implementation of worldwide interest allocation and apply 70% limitation on the first year of worldwide interest allocation
Is the first provision a stealth tax on the Internet?
I have go get a snax, but in The Pension Protection Act, the main mechanical component that SIFMA wanted to push, was exemptions for underwriters, which relates to accountability and opening floodgates, thus I suggest someone download this beast in pdf form and do a search for underwriters and exemptions ASAP. What good it will do now that the whores have cut fat deals, may not be an issue, but these whores in many cases need re-elected, thus any collusion or connection to any abuse in this legal mumbo jumbo should be used against them, regardless if they are Dems, Repubs, Northern, Southern, etc........HELP!
If only there were a line-item veto.
tj & the bear | 07.26.08 - 8:51 pm | #
What makes you thihnk the current fool (or the next, or the one after) wouldn't just use it veto the part eliminating DAP's and sign the rest? Be careful what you wish for.
Sorry to dupe my comment from the previous thread, but there has to be a scandal in the Chrysler handout. Dan Quayle is (was?) the Chmn of Global Investment at Cerberus and engineered the deal to buy back Chrysler for &7.6B from Daimler only a year ago.
"So is there a limit one can spend on solar energy w'n one's property?
"
There was a limit onhome much of your solar power was tax deductible. It appears that the might be no limit now. Also, solar panel expenses can be used to offset the ATM tax. I bet we see lots of panels in the non-sunny northeastern blue states from this one.
Good writeup on your blog, but realistically the GSEs didn't have to buy any "bad" loans to get into trouble. The bubble pretty much assured their destruction, as inflated values were the basis for way too many prime loans, too.
Mandates the establishment of underwriting standards which allow the FHA to insure mortgage loans for qualified borrowers who have existing mortgages with adverse terms or rates, qualified borrowers who do not have access to mortgages at reasonable rates and terms for such refinancings due to adverse market conditions, and qualified borrowers who are in default or at imminent risk of being in default (Sec. 210).
Subtitle B - Dealer Sales
Reduces from four to two years the REIT safe harbor holding period for purposes of the exemption from the tax on income from prohibited transactions
Revises the amounts of sales in a taxable year that qualify for the prohibited transactions tax safe harbor to allow sales 10% of the aggregate bases of all assets in an REIT or 10% of the aggregate fair market value of all assets in an REIT.
Section 602 -
Allows the use of qualified mortgage bond proceeds to refinance subprime residential mortgages. Increases to $10 billion in 2008 the volume cap for such bonds. Exempts tax-exempt interest from such bonds from the AMT.
I've never read a single article in the "agenda-setting/mainstream" media about the current housing crash that didn't attribute it to subprime. They're so f-cking lazy and stupid.
To all reading the bill online... <a href="http://www.jct.gov/x-63-08.pdf>this Joint Committee on Taxation report might help you wade through all the mumbo-jumbo. It also includes the enactment dates. It's 72 PDF long... answered a few of my questions.
So FHA will insure mobilehome loans for mobile homes in space rent trailor parks with a 3 year land lease!!??
The snarky view would be that FHA is preparing for a plethora of home owners downgrading their living standards. Once the mcmansion gets FC'ed, a mobile home in a spare rent park may be the best choice left.
I think it does put a temporary floor on prices after it takes effect, but the lenders are going to eat it either way and that means tighter credit.
Also, this will take a long time to gain traction and get up to speed. Remember the Katrina response? Interestingly, it may not be truly effective until after the general election (or later).
"This is a voluntary program, so lenders holding the original mortgage have to agree to rework a given loan before things can get started. The bill requires lenders to make major concessions, writing down the value of the loan to 90% of the home's current value. In areas where prices have plummeted by as much as 20%, that will mean a substantial loss for the lender.
But lenders won't sign off on a workout unless they think that they'll lose less money on that than they would by allowing a home to go through the costly foreclosure process.
Each loan will have to be underwritten by an FHA lender on a case-by-case basis. That means the banks will do a new appraisal to determine the home's current value, as well as examine and verify income statements, bank accounts, job histories and credit scores."
: Dealer Sales - Reduces from four to two years the Energy Policy ActREIT safe harbor holding period for purposes of 2005 to direct the Secretary of Energy to implement a cash prize (H-Prize) program to advance research, development, demonstration, and commercial application of hydrogen energy technologies.exemption from the tax on income from prohibited transactions
Authorizes appropriations Revises the amounts of sales in a taxable year that qualify for such program for FY2008-FY2017.the prohibited transactions tax safe harbor to allow sales 10% of the aggregate bases of all assets in an REIT or 10% of the aggregate fair market value of all assets in an REIT.
The $7500 "refundable tax credit" is only available until next July.
From House debate: First, the bill uses the Bush administrations credit card reporting proposal which obligates third-party financial institutions that process credit card payments to report to the IRS on annual credit card receipts to a business.
As if there was any question as to who put that provision in. Indeed, Republicans are traitors!
One of my favorite meme's repeated over and over: There is currently a 101⁄2-month supply of unsold homes, double the 10-year average. Home prices have been falling, defaults on foreclosures have been on the rise, and this contraction in the residential real estate market has become an anchor on our economy.
You fool! You're only going to make it a bigger anchor! But don't worry everyone:
The stakes are simply too high
and the risk of an even broader, more
expensive financial bailout down the
road is too great. And for that reason, I will, with great reluctance, support the legislation before us todaynotwithstanding its numerous flawsas it includes the plan developed by Secretary Paulson to provide a temporary Federal backstop in order to protect taxpayers from potentially enormous future exposure and our economy from perhaps unprecedented harm.
I hope his fingers weren't crossed when he said it was the last bailout.
Sam Johnson of Texas! I think he might read this blog...
Apparently, Daniel Mudd, the CEO of
Fannie Mae, received $11.6 million in
salary, stock, and other compensation
for 2007. Richard Syron, CEO of Freddie Mac, took home about $18.3 million last year. On top of his salary, stock options, and a $3.5 million bonus, Freddie Mac paid for a number of other perks for Syron such as a car and driver, a home security system, travel costs for his wife, even $100,000 to pay his lawyer to negotiate his employment contract with the bank. Now everyone knows Im a strong supporter of freedom and free enterprise, but this is ridiculous, and I think even you all would agree.
I do not believe
we should ask people who rent
homes or apartments and all of the
people who reasonably and responsibly
saved for a home to foot the bill for all of the people who are in foreclosure. Thats just not right.
More to come, the debate prior to the vote is better reading than the bill.
Crazy!...Almost unbelievable all the monkey ass nonsense you have going on down there!.....
You know we don't have any tax breaks on our personal real estate. We have funded health care, funded Canada Pension Plan, run balanced budgets, have a low national debt.
And most Canadians live in a house and are managing the mortgage............
Despite the most pollyanna-ish view on this bill, there should by now be no denying the real estate market is in deep deep trouble where the US financial and political authorities are throwing everything they can at it, over and over, with no end in sight. The dollar will indeed get thumped after all these misguided efforts at upending market forces. Far from over.
Thinking about this in light of Tanta's ubernerd posts on MBS's, do the lenders have the authority to do the work-arounds that congress wants to happen?
What is the percentage of mortgage loans that are not locked up in securities anyway?
If I understood, the trustee has real incentive not to modify and possible tax and legal liability for changing the terms of the loans. Does this bill address this, or is it signifying nothing?
A Congressman from Oregon promised to attempt to strip the Canadian railcar provision from the bill.
Pisses me off whenever they bring up "affordable housing" as a justification for this bill. This bill will continue the problem and not bring a solution.
Royce(CA) with a strong slapdown of the bill. Absolutely pisses on Congress since he introduced GSE reform legislation 5 years ago and the same lobbyists who helped this bill opposed GSE reform for the past 5 years. Correctly perceives banks are going to dump their garbage on the GSEs.
Scott(GA) talking about how taxpayers are crying out and this bill is full of safety and soundness. You idiot!
Ryan(WI) he actually uses the quote privatize profits, socialize losses!
Don't try to understand this bricolage. (I still say a bricole is a catapult).
It will mean whatever the Feds say it means. It ain't been court tested yet.
Anyone else Dohme Denched in the late 80's? It was popularly known as Doom Denched. A 1942 obscure court ruling that basically subjected even the honest to the vagaries of the RTC.
The Government has become oppressive. Where have I heard language like that before.
(1) 10%/yr for first 5 yrs, 50-50 thereafter -- [Little confused by this, are FHA & lender sharing the appreciation??? does the owner really get nothing?]
Well, appreciation gains are limited but the owner gets the value of the writedown plus free 13% in new equity at the refinancing. (I believe both windfalls are tax free).
It's great that every American who saved for a downpayment gets to watch people with 100% financing option ARMs get free equity.
"Worldwide interest allocation" is a 2004 tax break for international corporations that was not supposed to start until 2009. It would allow them to avoid US taxes by making favorable interest expense allocations to US subsidiaries. Implementation has now been further delayed, meaning multinational corporations will lose a deduction and pay more taxes.
Neal(MA) constantly points to Paulsen and Bush in response to Republican opposition of this bill.
Maloney(NY) raising the GSE will help high cost areas in my district.
McCrerry(I dunno but he is R) should get a special EFF-YOU for giving republican credibility to the debate.
Frank(MA) says it's only a $1.7B bill, not a $300B bill. $300B is the number if no one pays off their re-mortgage. Also, it's not a $5T blank check, it will be a $25B blank check.
Bachus(LA) lays out the lies and slaps down Frank and explains why its a bad bill. The blank check authority to Paulsen was not debated within the House! We debated and studied the Chrysler bailouts, Lockheed bailouts and Conrail bailouts, but not this one.
Frank, no, the FHA is not going to take on everyone elses bad loans... not gonna happen!
"Wouldn't be suprised that within 50 years, Canada becomes the 51st 52nd and 53rd states."
I think that it might be rather more likely that the FDIC and the FED will force a marriage between us. We'll take the first billion in losses and you guys will be on the hook for the other 28 Trillion.
Damn son. Don't you know not to tell people what you keep in your safe? I mean, we might try a leveraged buyout of Canada but a hostile takeover is definately not out of the question!
I don't know about the dollar, but this certainly isn't the "end of capitalism." This is business as usual for capitalism and the "free markets," since the "invisible hand" has never been able to dig itself out of the mess it creates with nerve-wrecking regularity without some help from the public. So once again, public the savior is pushed into service to give a helping hand. Nothing new here but the details.
Canadian watching with popcorn | 07.26.08 - 10:04 pm |
I've learned that there is always a trollish argument of this nature whenever the subject of Canada is broached. I've had 'em with byzantine and barely and others. Bunch of sunsetting, neo imperialist, armchair generals. I'm surprised that they are even able to type with the slurpee in one hand and the 7-11 burrito in the other.
Ugh, more idiots talking about housing market stability. Stability will come with falling prices! Cisephysian idjits!
Manzullo(IL) Congress set its own trap with Fannie and Freddie when we allowed them to be too big to fail. But this isn't the right bailout. It doesn't punish those who took risks.
Green(TX) if this is a bailout, it is a bailout of the United States of America!
Hinojusa(TX) this is a win-win! Homeowners will end up in houses and investers will get paid because homeowners are making affordable paymnets! (What are you smoking that doesn't seem logical...)
Neugebauer(TX) this bill will make matters worse for taxpayers. It is asking those who paying their own mortgages responsibilty to make payments for their neighbors as well.
I'm sorry but our Congresspeople sound like NAR spokespeople about "house as a tool to build wealth"!
un autre canadien avec popcorn
Don't worry, Bin is running around the desert on his camel handing their asses to them in a handbucket. I don't think they would want to test our Mohawk Warriors for a second time.
"The best bailout is one where the gov. helps people move out of houses they can't afford with the least damage to the social fabric".
Yeah, I agree, but as so many in Congress and the Senate have said-outright- that this not_about communities, this is about PROPERTY VALUES.
Over and over we have heard them say - "this bailout will help you all, even if you're NOT defaulting because *less foreclosures in your neighborhood means higher property values.
They've been gunning for overpriced RE for a decade and never gave a sh*t how many people got hurt by the high prices.
Now, prices are FINALLY falling and they want to KEEP THEM HIGH.
Here's the final House and Senate vote. A lot of Republicans in Florida, Ohio, and Cali took politically tough votes against the bill (after all the GOP president supports it). Special props to Nevada's Senator Ensign and Arizona's Jon Kyl for their No votes. The sad thing was we had enough House votes to support a veto but Bush absolutely caved in.
So basically the objections to the bill:
- Blank check power to the Treasury and raising national debt. I actually think this is the main objection from most Congressmen.
- We are taxing Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae.
- Those taxes are going to local groups that decidedly help the left.
- Republicans weren't allowed to add amendments to the bill, this was a "take it or leave it" bill.
- Freddie and Fannie are too big to fail, but I don't like this bill.
- Freddie and Fannie shouldn't have government backing.
They don't realize this is pissing in the wind (or they don't want to tell us that). They think helping 400k people stave off foreclosure is useful? They don't seem to understand that falling house values is the only solution... (well, we could have massive inflation). I hope in a couple of years Barney Frank gets sent to prison and becomes someone's "Bubba".
All I can say is this is one Californian who will not be voting for a single incumbent in November..... Lying, thieving bastards. May all your homes be foreclosed upon. Lookin' right you Laura Richardson, I'm in your district.
AngryRenter, I believe the 13% implicit equity (10% from appraisal hair-cut, 3% points for FHA insurance) is not the home-debtors, it's the FHA's. At least for the first year. After that it is shared between the FHA and the home-debtor.
What I don't understand is what happens if the home-debtor does a no-money out refi. It would seem in that circumstance the FHA gets nothing. Yes, this seems a big give-away to irresponsible home-debtors. All they have to do it sit tight for 5 years and they are bailed out.
And as someone else said, I think this does put a floor under housing at the point incomes can service home prices on a 30yr fixed amoritization. Are we there yet? Probably enough people see the write-down as godsend that they will make necessary sacrifices and the foreclosures and distressed sales can subside. I don't see anything in the way of future appreciation though. Actually for the next five years a much slower decline as the 10% of FHA equity leaks away.
I agree, no votes for the incumbents in California. I have owned my home for 15 years and I see many young coworkers struggle to get a home for themselves. This bill will only help get home prices beyond wages. Not to mention pay off all the companies the stole the monies.
I can only hope this bill fails to do anything near what they are trying to accomplish.
F#@k off, try finding my taxes after changing w-4 to exempt, opening llc and doing everything I can to not give you a penny of my money. I have 4 years until daughter graduates. Good luck finding me after that..Into the wild with all my exempt tax money that you didn't receive stored in silver and gold bars buried where you'll never find it..Adaptability is a bitch..
I will not pay for someone elses house, or take the chance that I might..
This bill has created something that the the public and govt doesnt want, a person who knows how to cheat but didnt and now will...What will you do, throw me in prison for cheating on my taxes while you let the pigmen, borrowers and congress cheat on housing....$#%k off feinstein, boxer, bush, paulson, bernanke and all others..
AllanF:
What I don't understand is what happens if the home-debtor does a no-money out refi. It would seem in that circumstance the FHA gets nothing.
FHA gets its share in either sale or refi. for all time periods.
eg.
F) If such sale or refinancing occurs during any period that begins 5 years after such date of insurance, the Secretary shall be entitled to 50 percent of such equity and the mortgagor shall be entitled to 50 percent of such equity.
"I think Congress actually believes that the problem is confined to subprime.."
Probably. Congressmen/women are pretty well off, compared to a lot of their recent neighbors who had to go all in and take out pay option loans to live in the same neighborhood.
A lot of 'em (notwithstanding the CA. nitwit congresswoman who foreclosed on 3 properties) probably also had the sense to buy in earlier in the bubble and then stop, ie. they didn't have to buy at the top or near top.
It's common for Senators running for president to miss votes because they're out campaigning...plus this wasn't really scheduled until yesterday and it was an unusual Saturday vote.
I've watched McCain and I don't think he really wants to win. People who want to win campaign on weekends.
Also the media showed him getting out of some sort of vehicle, and he did it like an old man.
I wouldn't want to be prez come 2009.
And I repeat that the part about re-fis just isn't gonna happen, unless the banks are forced to do it. THAT legislation won't even be thought of for well over a year, and couldn't go into effect for a year or 2 after that, and by that time who knows how many lenders will be left standing?
McCain didn't write a thing....his "peeps" did and he just used a pen....
Now does anyone else think that the site of over 200k people cheering on Obama in Germany last week didn't scare the holy crap out of every single neo-conservative alive?? I think even the dead ones like Rand were afraid...
Seems that the new bill giveth & taketh away, the DAP. For those who get their loan cut to 85% of market, presumably a much greater haircut to purchase point, they get a retroactive DAP... huge. Current stooges don't. This is a massive wealth realocation - nothing less. It's done to favor the dumbest or biggest risk takers, over the responsible americans. Pathetic.
Hey, I just read this thing over and you gotta be sh^&*ing me right? I mean is this thing for real. I mean I love it. Tell you what though, I think maybe it would be a whole lot easier if peoples wages were just paid to the government to dole out as it, we, it, whatever, sees fit. That'd be good. Waddya think Hank?
I saw the debate on C-span, watched the whole dang thing, eyes and ears glued to the TV.
The Republicans who spoke against the bailout (and lets remember there were 149 Repubs,. AGAINST the bailout, vs. 3 Dems) were so eloquent that I'll never vote Democrat again. Period.
Never been a knee jerk voter before but watching the Dems fall all over themselves fot the past YEAR and a HALF to "keep prices high" has sickened and horrified me. That vote on Wednesday was the last straw.
The Repubs really really got it- that it's obscene to ask American workers to pay for this clusterf*ck.
Glad there's a transcript out there.
Check out the comments of 21 or so Republicans who spoke out.
I'm calling Nancy Kaptur, D. Ohio, on Monday to thank her for her bravery in standing up against her fellow Dems., and then that'll be it for me as far as that totally worthless party goes.
Bravo,
Both Texas senate persons voted against this putrid afterbirth.
When they brush aside the decayed and rotting pond scum, they will see themselves and wonder why their noses grew and why they have warts ahoy.
The threads of misconclusions are woven into the fabric of their lives.
If I were Oblama bin Hue-sane Tarikstein, OK let's call him Bob, I would try to throw this election to gerrymander ops geriatric Ivan Mac Caner and let him relive, Nah the Viets are our friends now.
A bigger throw away election I have never seen. Whoever wins, I hope the Praetorian Guard has their bayonets sharpened.
If only there were a line-item veto.
tj & the bear | 07.26.08 - 8:51 pm | #
If you want that then just abolish congress and have a dictator & be done with it. Line item veto = rubber stamp pretend congress.
Bush can veto if he had balls - or individual senators could have actually filibustered to force cloture - neither happened.
There is no substitute for good policy executed by capable & honest leadership - we get what we vote for, we got neither. Take it to the ballot box and if that doesn't do it - to the streets.
Here's a little article that might warrant some outrage. Tanta wrote about his a while back. The story went from offensive to unbelievable. Now it's just sick.
Geritol Johnny "I don't know nuttin' bout the economy" McCain is a skeerd little rabbit because he knows he's going to get his head handed to him for being a flip-flopping fool.
Rob Dawg- today on CNN I heard a dumb@ss (or lying?) reporter say that HR 3221 passed the House with "broad bipartisan support".
Say What??!!!!
149 Republican nays. One Hundred Forty Nine Against. 45 voted yea. Wow. Lots of Republican support for that bill. Not.
Dems: 229 yea. 3 Nay . Pitiful
So yeah, the LA Times probably reported it wrong.
There seems to be a concerted effort to lie about this one in the media. It's pretty blatant. Vote tally ing is in NUMBERS. Numbers don't lie.
But I guess they're depending on people not checking the numbers for themselves, or forgetting about the whole thing in a week or two, as Americans are want to do.
Why is it that no one puts blame on George W? I guess he is going to ride off into the sunset smelling like a rose. BTW he will be the one signing this bill next week.
And I repeat that the part about re-fis just isn't gonna happen, unless the banks are forced to do it....
Lawyerliz
If the banks can phony up the appraisals, (they've had lots of practice!) they'll flock to dump their worst crap on USG. And the purchasing of GSE stock, or some other shenanigans tranferring public money into private hands, will happen within minutes of the bill being signed.
W will be blamed deservedly for this and a whole lot of other stuff.
By the way, did you all notice the thing where McCain said he didn't
know how to work the internet?
Also, one of the Appollo astronauts sez that Roswell was real and the gov-mint is hiding the fact that aliens have visited many times. He really said that. NASA is ignoring it.
Maybe we can get the aliens to abduct a large number of congresspersons.
We all know democrats are socialists, they run on a socialist platform. But we voted for a republican Senate and Presidency to stop this nonsense. What do we get, double the national debt in 7 years. Limited civil liberties, open boarders, massive spending and let us not forget the secret trials at Camp Pendleton to imprison our bravest troops.
Republicans could have easily stopped this, they still control the Senate and Presidency. And it was only 3 years ago that they controlled all branches of government.
Teach these traitors a lesson and do not vote for any republicans.
Look folks, I ain't the sharpest tool in the woodshed but using Occam's razor, it seems to me that the 'powers' want a form of semi-voluntary survitude. Keep the rubes in the houses so they can pay the Man. If we all have to take a 15% haircut, we will make it up off the masses that didn't squander their credit and still have real jobs.
It reeks of a combination of coersion and blackmail with an added layer of pseudo compassion. That's the hook. Compassion...We loves the little folk.
Pass a law that says that no elected official can take a job after service other than what he/she was doing prior to being elected. Billillary would have been baking cookies and pumping gas rather than collecting $65 millionas as an after bribe. An after bribe defined as 'do as we want and we will pay you later'. Perfectly legal, da?
Ok, I'm an unpatriotic loser. i work, rent, owe nothing and pay taxes. Maybe it's not too late for me. What can I steal? Any suggestions appreciated.
I want to add my best efforts to those of my fellow citizens. With just a little more effort we can totally destroy the country.
Really, we can do it. Destruction you can count on.
Waidaminnit -- isn't this the same provision that got struck out of the 'internet gambling' thing tacked onto the port security bill, back again?
The gummint gets all of everyone's credit card transaction records, just for curious browsing?
This part:
The provision requires any payment settlement entity making payment to a participating payee in settlement of reportable payment transactions to report annually to the IRS and to the
participating payee the gross amount of such reportable payment transactions, as well as the
name, address, and TIN of the participating payees. A reportable payment transaction means
any payment card transaction and any third party network transaction.
(F) If such sale or refinancing occurs during any period that begins 5 years after such date of insurance, the Secretary shall be entitled to 50 percent of such equity and the mortgagor shall be entitled to 50 percent of such equity.
But if it is a no-money out refi what's the "such equity".
I guess one could argue it's the 10% write-down portion, but I'm not sure I see that in the text.
I'm starting a new blog, NOT. To be called 'the cucking stool'. It is a place where we can cyber-pillory the town Mayor or the town drunk. Even, dare I say men/wohmen in positions of power.
Once pilloried, we send them to Gulog.com./tm
You don't want to know what happens in the Gulog. It stays in the Gulog.
Confessions heard daily. Fake remorse will NOT be rewarded with black bread and Kvas.
Ok. The toaster was put on dark for the evening. Bell bottom blues and fading comes to mind.
If I was the proud recipient of the FHA shave-and-harcuit and I had subsequent appreciation of the property, why couldn't I cut Uncle Sam out of the shared appreciation by "selling" to some intermediate party at some low/no appreciated value. The intermediate party can then re-sell at higher market value and rebate or kick back some dough to the original seller thereby cutting Uncle Sam out of the gain? Of course, this assumes there would be appreciation. There would also be tax implications but I am sure someone will figure how to rig this.
OK, how about some predictions on the un-intended consequences of this bill? I'm sure there will be some doozies... Mish is always good at predicting them.
Higher interest rates seems to be a common one.
How about more housing supply as retired or fixed-income folks have to sell to make ends meet during the new inflationary era? Along the same lines, will household formation shift into reverse?
How do you figure? The president can't sign anything that doesn't come to him from Congress, plus line-item vetos work well at the state level.
tj & the bear | 07.26.08 - 11:21 pm | #
The states w/ line item vetoes have VERY strong governors and very weak state assemblies - virtual dictatorships.
Its far better to kill the whole bill via overall veto or pass & sign the whole bill than allow the executive to selectively rewrite the legislation via line-item-veto.
The thing that has made our system work is real check-n-balance. It makes them play well together...
I'd rather see a parliamentary gov't w/ vote of no confidence & new snap elections than a line item veto.
::::
There are middle ground compromises though that forces more discipline during the crafting of a bill - one is to allow 'interested parties' to contest in court legislation AFTER it is voted up by the legislative & signed by the executive to determine if ALL articles of the bill are 'germane'. If a section isn't germane then the court can order the whole bill back to the legislative for rewriting as separate bills to vote up/down individually by the legislative & signed individually by the executive.
The Cerberus/Chrysler section if placed under this scrutiny would certainly have been determined to be 'not germane' to the topic of home lending & mortgage reform. The whole bill would have to go back for rewrite as multiple bills - each with their own vote and signing (if they survive).
Congress knowing that would happen - wouldn't even try to craft earmarks & grab bag large omnibus bills like this. They work very hard to make sure the bills remained 'germane'.
That is a FAR better process than line-item-vetoes & produces a more 'democratic' result.
This sort of confirms that we did have money after all for social security before this crisis or I'm going to read it that way until somebody shoots it down. Fire away!
I too worry that banks will stick it to the taxpayer with false appraisals, thus minimizing their losses.
However, I imagine those false appraisals will be more difficult to pull off in an environment of declining prices, no? I mean, if you have a house in a foreclosure neighborhood where list prices are dropping and houses are sitting, isn't that a little easier to spot? I mean easier to spot than when prices were skyrocketing, and you could just say, "Well, it's crazy, but it's worth whatever the market will pay".
ShortCourage writes:
OK, how about some predictions on the un-intended consequences of this bill?
I should think everyone sees the elephant. Maintenance and improvement has been disincentivised and tax fraud has been entrenched. One need only look sat our sad previous experience with public housing to know where we are headed.
149 Republican nays. One Hundred Forty Nine Against. 45 voted yea. Wow. Lots of Republican support for that bill. Not.
That is wide non-partisan support by modern congressional standards... it is more support than Bush got from Dems when they were in the minority on many of his initiatives that passed with what was then termed 'nonpartisan support'.
You get a quarter of the other guys - that's pretty non-partisan. In the 90s Gingerich forced the GOP minority to vote lock step in opposition (near zero defections). Last couple years the Dems did the same thing under Pelosi & Ried. Result is they both overturned the standing majority in the next upcoming election... it could happen again.
It is easy to oppose as the minority... its a real bitch to lead & govern as a majority - both parties have learned that recently.
Federable Gummints don't go away. Wee need em for pertektion. They pertek me from you and us from thems.
I get your point but there ain't no escape. Everyone needs to do their own DD and protect themselves and those they love and cherish.
Really ironic but in 1979 I wrote a paper about "China, our last best hope." I thought we were toast then but China might give us another generation of growth. And it came to pass.
Silly me but they got rid of their 'gang of three' or was it four? Well, if we can get rid of our 'gang of 4' we could start to heal and be great again.
A Banana republic with nukes will only serve us for a decade or so. I really expect some 'great fact man' to step up to the challange and lead us across the slough of despond.
God, I'm only tempering my cynic nature with a faint ray of hope.
According to Wiki all but 7 states have line-item veto. I'd argue that selective deletion is not rewriting, either. Besides, if the gov wants something to come to him he usually has to give something in return.
"Maintenance and improvement has been disincentivised and tax fraud has been entrenched."??
I think he means that if you cannot sell your house and keep the profits why would you do maintenance and repairs. Or why would you do upgrades like new flooring or light fixtures.
Regarding tax fraud, I share the outrage of earlier comments, and I too am tempted to protest by tax avoidance.
I wonder if that will be another un-intended consequence? Will we see folks shift more heavily to the use of difficult-to-track use of cash and barter?
Probably not. This site and its outrage isn't very representative of the general population.
Still, wouldn't a website that facilitates such activity be a great idea (except that it would be squashed pretty much immediately!)?
I guess that wouldn't be a very widespread issue though, right? Just the small minority that actually get "helped" by the loan mods portion of the bill...
So that's a few scattered folks with no incentive to maintain and improve.
According to Wiki all but 7 states have line-item veto. I'd argue that selective deletion is not rewriting, either. Besides, if the gov wants something to come to him he usually has to give something in return.
We'll agree to disagree.
tj & the bear | 07.27.08 - 12:35 am | #
Most states have very weak rubber stamp legislatures. Those with LIV are among the weakest.
And I've heard of it done - where a governor will take a tiny section and strike just one word or phrase to completely change the meaning & intent of a bill. That is legislatures job - the executive signs or vetoes - if signed it executes.
GOP partisans who think Bush would do wisely as a line-item-decider in this instance... would they be as happy if say a democrat was president & congress was passing a tax cut or entitlement reduction and that democrat had line item authority to selectively strike sections of the bill so as to castrate it?
Just get rid of the legislature then.
Line item veto really is a can of worms that can't force competence & responsibility from incompetent executives & irresponsible legislatures.
You hit that one out of the park. Where do I sign up? Nah. I'm happy as an ignoramious. An old and crusty ignoramious but I still HAVE HOPE!
Adoption.com
If yer rich and need a granpaw for your adopted heathens or spoiled rug rats, I'm your guy. Will be willing not to report you to Child Welfare. Minimum wage plus room and board plus lots and lots of hush money.
BTW, my outrage would burn hottest if taxpayers contribute in any way to Fannie and Freddie while the shareholders of those companies are allowed to avoid their full losses.
That, and the obvious lunacy of proppinig up housing prices while at the same time pumping money into affordable housing initiatives!
Precisely how does one short the treasury note? What's the mechanism behind it? Expect the demand to dry up, leading to a drop in price and rise in yield?
And how does one play that?
And y'know, my better half is steamed and she's a steel magnolia.
Agreed, that's why in order to change anything, we have to take initiative in our hands and invest into VC and related.
I disappointed with democrats much more. Instead of talking about rising taxes and balancing our budget and instead of allocating government money into energy efficient research they talk populist rumble.
The real issue though, would we vote for someone who spoke their mind instead of telling us what we want to hear?
"Maintenance and improvement has been disincentivised and tax fraud has been entrenched."??
Sorry, I sometimes forget I don't think like normal people. This will take a while so relax. The bailout details will be intimate, that is at a level the FB will understand. They are about to get a once in a lifetime personal debt reduction. The initial amount of their winnings depends upon a low appraisal. So much for routine upkeep. Then they face the prospect of any appreciation accruing a half rate. How many home improvement projects have 200% ROIs? Finally comes time to collect the winnings and get out from under the onerous terms of the bailout. Tract homeowners will start trading same floor plan models for $1000 plus broker fees over the 2008 bailout price. And therein lies the final straw. This event has the effect of suppressing home prices for at least a decade.
Imagine that you are an analyst at a chinese intelligence agency tasked with reading the better econ blogs. If they didn't grow up in an english speaking country, they must be have nervous breakdowns on a regular basis trying to decipher this stuff.
"Sir, we have made great progress on codeword 'ponies', the identities of CR and Tanta, but the new legislation... sir... it just seems too counterintuitive.
We are also zeroing in on the eaters of popcorn. They're strange, yet somehow familiar; they must really be Canadians. Canado-American relations appear to be polite yet strained. Signint chatter indicates that silos in Saskatchewan are open and pose an unknown threat.
The credit card reporting provision sounds like it should put an end to all the e-bay based businesses that depend on not reporting income to be profitable. Especially the little ones that won't be worth filing a return.
It sounds like a website for facilitating cash transactions would probably be a network covered by the reporting requirement.
Intentionally or otherwise, the government will cause an increase in the "black market". High inflation, higher taxes, poorer services... the incentives will be obvious.
Plus I've heard tell of an increase in people who are using scrip to exchange services and goods.
Uncle Billy Vs. Mt. Pelerin | Homepage | 07.27.08 - 1:02 am | #
Be careful - IRS still expects taxes on barter & exchange in king at 'market equivalents'...
I have IRS & DOJ family they say 'absolutely' that is the case... I also have a friend whose business failed because he was bartering services like crazy & didn't pay taxes on the 'fee equivalent' income it represented. Litigation killed him.
It isn't hard at all to audit somebody to show they aren't paying - might not capture 100% of the barter exchange - only have to show they are intensionally not reporting some to get a nasty conviction.
Maxine Waters has promised to bring back DAP in a standalone bill. No doubt it'll probably pass, but unsure if Bush would sign it or not. She mentioned this twice during her floor testimony prior to the vote.
Uncle Billy Vs. Mt. Pelerin writes:
dry: Plus I imagine that irs will be getting more and more aggressive as revenues decline.
Uncle Billy Vs. Mt. Pelerin | Homepage | 07.27.08 - 1:11 am | #
Oh yeah, retirement. I wonder how much influence aarp had on this bill. For the boomers and older folks losing pension and home equity has got to really really piss them off.
Hmmm... the banks that just went down supposedly were involved heavily (or at least one of them) in card processing for online gambling. Maybe there will be a ton of new tax revenue generated from this provision as they can better track the flow of cash offshore. ? If they were involved in card processing for gambling, they probably did porn as well. Pretty Ironic if squeeky clean Mutual of Omaha ends up with that stuff.
tj: I'll bet that if you look in the aarp monthly magazine you'll find puhlenty of nice safe looking companies helping the older folks with their money.
Reading the greedy posts at Yahoo Message Boards about getting rich on this bill by buying FRE and FNM low is disgusting. Fortunately, they're probably deluded, since they think drastic Gov't action needed to keep the GSE's alive bodes well for their securities. Disgusting people, really.
YLSP: The e-gold.com website is up. This says that they stopped, but will start back up in November with all sorts of safeguards against criminal usage.
Anyone still posting is either drunk (my hand up) or a glutton for a prostate exam. "Honest, I like my prison tats". But for the grace of God go I.
Bad day in America. Sad day in America.
Who can truely fathom the chaos and and dislocations that will most surely result from this ignoble piece of legistlation? Yes, ignoble is the harshest term for me.
if they can do this right now, dont count the banks out of fudging appraisals..
Re: taxes, why pay them, just claim exempt, it's legal and put it in a cd until next april, depending on what happens, pay it or not..
Money to be made off this is to open a consumer mortgage credit counseling company with some friend who is considered a minority (whatever that is now days)20% of contracts will have to funnel thru there...
""For the boomers and older folks losing pension and home equity has got to really really piss them off."
Not as pissed off as they are going to be a couple of years from now."
I know a guy who just put off his retirement a year. He's 67, and he hasn't even paid off his house yet, though he's put away several hundred K -- in the stock market and REITs. Yep, next year he may well be pretty pissed off.
I can't wait to hear the sob stories on cnn.com about Joe Sixpack not qualifying for the FHA loan. Even better will be stories about the dumbasses who get foreclosed on by the FHA after their refinancing.
Think IndyMac a few weeks ago x 1,000,000.
I guess the only thing I would like to know is what are our 'leaders' doing to prevent another bubble?
If everybody thinks this one is bad, wait until our almighty, all knowing, lord and savior, Uncle Sam, passes the Failure Prevention Act of 2009. Followed by the No Banks Left Behind Act of 2010 and then the Road Out Of Serfdom Act of 2011. And finally, in 2012 Congress will repeal Reality.
Crazy!...Almost unbelievable all the monkey ass nonsense you have going on down there!.....
You know we don't have any tax breaks on our personal real estate. We have funded health care, funded Canada Pension Plan, run balanced budgets, have a low national debt.
And most Canadians live in a house and are managing the mortgage............
Canadian watching with popcorn | 07.26.08 - 9:36 pm |
As much as I would like to share your optimism, I recently read the the federal pension plan of Canda lost 1.4 billion in this fiasco - and that's only what they are disclosing...
I found this ranting very refreshing and honest and agree with the matter on choices. I find myself wanting to vote out every incumbent, yet, the prospect of musical retards is appalling, so one wonders why one should even vote. I think I will vote for Abe Lincoln for every position and thus cast a vote for change and not empower the retards, but have my vote counted for honesty!
"As much as I would like to share your optimism, I recently read the the federal pension plan of Canda lost 1.4 billion in this fiasco - and that's only what they are disclosing...
lenka | 07.27.08 - 2:11 am | # "
I know that the company I work for, Nav Canada, lost 371 million worth of ABCP out of the pension fund when Coventry went tits up last year. It's still before the courts. Never going to be resolved.
DannyHSdad's blog Danny Homeschooling Dad has a post that link to the Larry Summers Financial Times doomsday letter. It reminded me of the comments I made earlier regarding Nuriel Roubini's doom-mongery and the fact that both Summers and Pimco's El-Erian are both very involved with Roubini's RGE-Monitor. Summers' affiliation with D.E. Shaw, a very closed lip group, is not noted on the Roubini site.
Nicholas Checa is a principal at Kissinger McLarty whose secretive client list includes some of the most powerful corporations in america and... Blackstone group. Uncle Wiki says that Kissinger McLary is physically located in the same building as Blackstone as well.
Most interesting at the moment though is the fellow at the veeeeery end of the list of rge board members: Carlos Abadi. Per the carlosabadi.org website:
"Mr. Abadi has played an active role in the emerging markets debt trading arena since the first Mexican syndicated loans started to change hands in the wake of Mexicos 1982 default. Since then, he has specialized every major restructured sovereign debt instruments issued since 1985."
One would think that we will be hearing much more about this dashing Argentine in coming months as we and others need some help with our own "restructuring of foreign debt instruments."
And then there's Marc Uzan, director of a think-tank called "Reinventing Bretton Woods Committee." He appears to be one of the main people responsible for the architecture of the new global financial system.
So What? I dunno, but it seems to me, from my vantage point here under the rock, that the very people who profess to be most interested in a stable global financial system are the ones who are providing us with the biggest shocks. And there are a few poised to make a killing off of all the instability.
The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencke
Hi Clown Hands. By here, do you mean on the pirate ship?
On the blog? Well, Gladys has gone to bed, and I don't want to get hypnotized by the boob tube, and there hasn't been any good night surfing in California since forever...
You said you had to cook dinner one night, but you seem to be here a lot, unlike myself, so I'm just curious (somewhat) as to your background, i.e, are you involved with selling hair products, or do you work for The CIA or FDIC?
Of course I'm DH, but does that make me a criminal?
Re: onsidering there are about 8,500 banks in the United States, 90 problem banks is not that large a number, said L. William Seidman, a former FDIC chairman. During the S&L crisis in the late 1980s and early 1990s, about 1,500 banks were on the problem list.
"Just because a bank is on the list doesn't mean it's going to fail," Seidman said. "If customers have deposits of under $100,000, they don't have to worry. They will get their money."
A 56-year-old man from the Midwestern US state of Wisconsin has been arrested after shooting his lawn mower in his garden because it would not start....
Police officers said Mr Walendowski had told them: "It's my lawn mower and my yard, so I can shoot it if I want."
If you can't shoot your own lawnmower in your own yard, then what freedoms do we have left? This bailout bill is bad enough but losing our basic rights - it must be the end-times ...I'm ready to be raptured...
I also see a menacing triadic convergence between civil liberties, insanity and government. This week we all are under the new threat to be watched by the greasy hair'd blogger thugs of FDIC who are in cahoots with failing banks that are transferring their ownership structures to less regulated insurance holding corporations that are skilled in the art of spinning off subsidiaries and entities that front-run regulations, authority and enforcement actions -- which of course -- brings us full-circle back to this whore-like legislation, which is a bunch of dog shit duck-taped into the form of a streamlined bailout package that no one has any clue as to what it's really about.
This convergence, is fueled by the reality that no one really gives a shit, because no one has the ability to focus on more than a few disjointed thoughts and when everyone, everywhere seem to be either retarded, aliens or in some way a combination of those realities and then the additive quality of attention deficit disorder -- well there yah fucking go, no one cares, no one gets it and if yah toss out a 700 page pile of shit, you can bet a few trillion bucks that no will fight it, because everyone is too busy doing other shit!
That's all, and if yah don't like my wall of words, then you and your genetic offspring can ... well, WTF, I love you baby, please come home!
I am just boggled at the crud shoved onto this bill. Tax-exempt status for FHLB-guaranteed bonds? It's just amazing what got loaded onto this. Frank's original discount mortgage purpose is trivial compared to a lot of the other stuff like the F&F bailout, the 7500 tax credit, the massive tax carryover givaway, etc.
See Paulson trying to pull shit with GSEs and covered bonds, i.e, GSEs actually were like covered bonds but they were entities, whereas, covered bond status is more like a mechanism in the form of a what....you got it, a fucking derivative package as toxic as the black plague!
Forget about subprime flu, wait around and watch Paulson Black Plague Covered Bonds!
In response to the liquidity crisis, particularly with regard to home mortgages, the FDIC last week announced new guidance for covered bonds. So what are covered bonds?
Here's how the FDIC describes covered bonds:
"Covered bonds are general, non-deposit obligation bonds of the issuing bank secured by a pledge of loans that remain on the bank's balance sheet. Covered bonds originated in Europe, where they are subject to extensive statutory and supervisory regulation designed to protect the interests of covered bond investors from the risks of insolvency of the issuing bank. By contrast, covered bonds are a relatively new innovation in the U.S. with only two issuers to date: Bank of America, N.A. and Washington Mutual. These initial U.S. covered bonds were issued in September 2006."
Unlike the legal and regulatory framework in Europe, which is extensive, U.S. regulators find that our banks do not need express statutory or regulatory authorization to issue covered bonds.
So why don't U.S. banks just go ahead? Well, in light of the current crisis involving residential mortgages, investors are understandably reluctant to go anywhere near something that could represent more of the same risk as the subprime mortgage derivative investments.
Here's where the U.S. regulators step in. The FDIC and the Federal Reserve are taking steps to reassure investors that the covered bond product is not so risky. The FDIC's July 15, 2008, Covered Bond Policy Statement tells investors how the FDIC will treat covered bonds in the event the bank that issued the covered bonds fails:
FDIC says, "As conservator or receiver for an IDI, the FDIC has three options in responding to a properly structured covered bond transaction of the IDI: 1) continue to perform on the covered bond transaction under its terms; 2) pay-off the covered bonds in cash up to the value of the pledged collateral; or 3) allow liquidation of the pledged collateral to pay-off the covered bonds."
Currently, there are no statutory or regulatory prohibitions on the issuance of covered bonds by U.S. banks. Therefore, to reduce market uncertainty and clarify the application of the FDIC's statutory authorities for U.S. covered bond transactions, the FDIC issued an Interim Policy Statement to provide guidance on the availability of expedited access to collateral pledged for certain covered bonds by IDIs in a conservatorship or a receivership.
Covered bonds are general, non-deposit obligation bonds of the issuing bank secured by a pledge of loans that remain on the bank's balance sheet. Covered bonds originated in Europe, where they are subject to extensive statutory and supervisory regulation designed to protect the interests of covered bond investors from the risks of insolvency of the issuing bank. By contrast, covered bonds are a relatively new innovation in the U.S. with only two issuers to date: Bank of America, N.A. and Washington Mutual. These initial U.S. covered bonds were issued in September 2006.
That's all yah gotta fucking know, WaMu already issued covered bonds in 2006 ....got the point, hello?????
Now wait just a second here, the covered bond bullshit from FDIC/Paulson/Bernanke goes against the grain of the new FASB shit on QSPEs, as a covered bond essentially will become an entity like a QSPE, so WTF is going on in America? This mafia/KGB Coup is trying to destroy every fragment related to reality and spin accounting fraud into accounting chaos.........this is amazing, I guess they think in some way they need to save America from all the shit they started, but as my buddy Einstein said, over and over and fucking over, "you can't solve a problem on the same level in which it was created" ... or something like that, i.e, the reatards that gave us this corrupt mess that is fueled by collusion and fraud and false and misleading information -- are NOT the people that will save us from this BLACK HOLE!
Walkaways on 2nd homes, vacation homes, investment properties, flips, etc. will not be affected by 'bailout bill'. Loans where incomes were not required on primaries will be worked out only with income docs. Walkaways on primaries due to job losses, medical bills, divorce, bankruptcies, upside down due to HELOCS or valuation collapse will still continue. So how many primary homeowners will really qualify and be motivated to do a workout?
"So how many primary homeowners will really qualify and be motivated to do a workout?"
Very few. I know everyone likes to get all up in arms over shit like this but this will crash and burn just as hard as all the other plans devised during this financial downturn. There's just too many things working against each other to make this plan a success. These homes were purchased at anywhere from 6-10x gross income and even a 50% haircut (never going to happen) would be tough for many of these borrowers to make. They bought these homes because they thought it was their ticket to the good life and there's no way in hell they're going to live the simple life for 5+ years just so they can share half the appreciation (if there is any) with the government. A few home repairs could wipe out any gains they do get. Someone posted that 35% of the worked out loans are expected to default anyways, but I believe the number will be much higher once people actually see it's in their best interest not to get a workout.
Doc Kona, now the soothing words of the SEC's Cox (which oozed from his lips just last week) about how there's no rush to implement the new FASB rules regarding QSPE's make a lot more sense, don't they?
Also in the Housing Bill, All Credit Card transaction will be reported to the IRS. So Big Brother in now in your wallet what next DNA swipes for new driver licences
SEE Sen. Ron Paul on yo tube YouTube - Ron Paul on the Housing Bill
To the fools mewling about a majority of Republicans standing up against this bad legislation: they were not needed.
The Republicans voting against this (latest) travesty against The People are merely providing theater. It fits the narrative of Republicans are for capitalism and Democrats are for socialism.
If the Republican's votes were needed, they would have voted for it. This has been going on for a long time: both Parties are beholden to corporate America.
Unfortunately propaganda is not as easy to spit up as koolaid.
Am I reading it wrong, or did they extend the 3 years loss carryback for builders to 4 years and give it to everybody? That's going to create a massive deficit increase
You are reading it wrong. There is NO tax loss carryback provision.
Lots of disinformation floating around, maybe CR can do a post summarizing the bill.
Republicans voted against this because they knew it already had the votes to pass. Over the years, it's been shown that they vote in unison when "necessary."
It is amazing how much money the feds have to spend on wars and bailouts--and not on medicare and social security. Priorities from our "values" oriented pols seem askew.
Honestly I don't think the banks will get to much out of this. Owners seeking a rework are not going to pay more than they have to!!! If I can't have it for what the house down the street went for last month forget it.
I also don't see the banks lining up to take 60% haircuts in California on option ARMS. Better to let them run out hoping the market will be better then, all the while booking the minimum payments as full amortization. Most of what will be reworked is for idiots that signed up for low teasers and had no hope of paying the higher rate at reset. However with all the restrictions about sharing future appreciation most people may opt to go ahead and rent for less.
Someone on this blog said that senators had ~ 16 hours to read the bill. Considering that most of those guys have to pee 4 times every hour, it was more like ~ 11 hours.
what's with the barrage of oddly named people having odd discussions with each other? are they all bots or something?
I read these threads and then BAM! I feel like I took crazy pills and ended up in the tower of Babel. Lots of words that seem to say nothing, with no particular point. I can't see the segue's or anything.
isn't there a special blog for that? is it just me?
It's first name was, "Attempt to Prevent Massive Deflationary Spiral Act of 2008"
Last
The best bailout is one where the government helps people move out of the houses that they cannot afford with a minimal of damage to the social fabric.
A while back in a previous thread, someone indicated the bill might include a property tax deduction for home owners who do not itemize because they have modest or no mortgage. Did this make it in?
Am I reading it wrong, or did they extend the 3 years loss carryback for builders to 4 years and give it to everybody? That's going to create a massive deficit increase. And it'll be specially targeted to keep value-losing business open longer, to destroy even more wealth!
My only question: is this bill longer or shorter than the U.S.A. P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act?
aka The Dumbass and Douchebag Bailout Act of 2008
Oh damn, another question. Where's the video of Karl Denninger's head exploding?
No pony?
Ah well.
The take back for losses is going ot be sweeeeeet.
Someday this war's gonna end...
Someday this war's gonna end...
You sure about that?
Wife just read it and complained shouting down from upstairs.
NO PONY!
She is pissed.
"I read this, now I'm gonna have a beer."
"welcome to the middle class, dear."
Someday this war's gonna end...
This is so distorted with chaos and so engulfed in boondoggle bullshit that it is truly a great monumental model for demonstrating that this Congress and Senate are the worst group of American representatives in our history -- the polls and rating do not lie!!
This is a tribute to lobby groups and hidden agendas that seek to distort the foreclosure/subprime issue at hand -- which is linked directly to the collusion from these puppets -- who now dance away from the reality of the lack of regulations and enforcement during this Bush era of The Ownership Society.
Writing retarded legislation that spins off in a thousand directions to distort the responsibility of these people, is sheer madness!
WTF: Although HUD had previously argued that it could continue to allow seller-funded down-payment programs by introducing risk-based pricing, Congress has not acted to allow HUD to charge riskier borrowers higher rates. The FHA Mutual Mortgage Insurance Fund now faces losses that would require taxpayer subsidies of $1.4 billion in fiscal year 2009, HUD said.
No one I can see from California voted against in either house. That about says it all.
any detail on how the $4 billion is doled out to cities for 'flipping'?
It is a sad day for American capitalism.
As a comment noted above, the whole point of the bill is to help stop a deflationary spiral working outwards from house prices into the rest of the economy.
The Fed will play a critical role. As I've mentioned before, I think Bernanke lays out his entire anti-deflation playbook in his 2002 speech. It is well worth reading multiple times. Located here:
Deflation: Making Sure "It" Doesn't Happen Here
Rob,
I was pissed my rep voted for the bill. I'm guessing they are just trying to protect our state from a $20B deficit... we're probably going to be there the next time the accountants do the math... no?
Chase Sucks writes:
A while back in a previous thread, someone indicated the bill might include a property tax deduction for home owners who do not itemize because they have modest or no mortgage. Did this make it in?
yes.. it is in Sec. 3012.
If I'm reading correctly, it is capped at $500 per individual or $1,000 per couple.
"Is there any reason why the American people should be taxed to guarantee the debts of banks, any more than they should be taxed to guarantee the debts of other institutions, including merchants, the industries, and the mills of the country?"
Senator Carter Glass, Author of the Banking Act of 1933
Ahem, I believe that the taxpayers ought to send the bailout costs to Phil Gramm, Bill Clinton, Robert Rubin
and every greedy s.o.b congressman who voted for the repeal in 1999 of the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933.
As for the morons who passed this current bailout fiasco, Thomas Paine says it clear & loud from the grave:
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead."
Come election-day anyone wanna hand out, "I was watching 'American Idol', while Rome was burning..." t-shirts? Seems apropos to an electorate that consistently re-elects people who have such a low-approval rating...
the war's not going to end
we're freaking doomed
Accountability and fraud spread evenly between The Senate & Congress!
They can't pass anything these days without a huge "Christmas Tree" effect, can they? Gawd what a mess.
If only there were a line-item veto.
someone indicated the bill might include a property tax deduction for home owners who do not itemize because they have modest or no mortgage
Speaking as a quasi-Georgist, just kill me now.
My only question: is this bill longer or shorter than the U.S.A. P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act?
hr 3221 eas2 is 634 pages long. this might be longer than the Patriot act.
I'm not certain on my reading of any of it, but I did notice a couple interesting items the money section is Title IV.
From Title IV Hope for Homeowners
Section 257
(e) Eligibility
(1) (B):
Mortgage debt to income > 31% [Suspect this covers most borrowers]
(2) (B)
Refinance amount limited to 90% of current appraised value [Ouch, but cheating here will be very tempting]
(3)
All fees and penalties waived and forgiven [Ouch]
(4)
Second liens extinguised, but shared appreciate is provided for (defined later) [Ouch]
(7)
No new 2nd liens for 5 yrs [Punch bowl is officially taken away]
(9)
Full doc with income based on IRS returns [Could make re-underwriting tough? Or not, saw no mention on upper allowable DTI.]
(11)
Primary AND SOLE residence [Huge temptation to cheat on this one too]
(i) Insurance premium
(1) 3 points up front
(2) 1.5 points every year after [Is that alot? Seems like a lot. But I've never bought PMI]
(k) Shared appreciation
(1) 10%/yr for first 5 yrs, 50-50 thereafter -- [Little confused by this, are FHA & lender sharing the appreciation??? does the owner really get nothing?]
The Senate Oath of Office:
I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God.
I wasn't aware that Bush & Cheney were actually elected, as the S.CT acted to put Bush & Cheney in office in 2000 in a decision the court has since declared to have "no precedential value" (plus the notable voting irregularities in FL & OH), and, in 2004, there were again such marked irregularities in vote counting & registration in OH, FL & one or two other states to make it impossible to determine (imo) whether Bush won either the popular vote or the needed number of electoral votes. I sure didn't vote for Bush in 2000 or 2004.
As for the rest of them, how much choice do you get in who you vote for at the federal level? Doesn't seem to be too many useful/knowledgeable candidates for Congressional rep or Senator where I live. The system of voting in the UK, Germany, et al (but not Italy) is starting to look pretty good to me--a wider representation of political viewpoints seems possible in those systems & they seem to have stronger limits on candidate/election financing in those nations. Perhaps someone w/more knowledge of their Constitutions or political structures can explain how they manage it.
Pension Protection Act is 1000 pages and no one read that either and ahhh, ummm, we have this problem with Department Of Labor and The Ownership Society and SIFMA and the issue of pension funds being exploited by hedge funds.... no one gives a shit, get over this legal blundering!
The really shady stuff (like earning deduction claw-backs) is going to be in the ammendments. Haven't gone through them. If anyone can cite anything egregious please do so.
"(Sec. 603) Allows a one-time tax credit of up to $7,000 of the purchase price of a single-family principal residence in foreclosure."
yah, let's subsidize crazy people buying into crazy market and drug the RE price decrease for ages to come...
do i smell a rally on monday for no apparent reason with media screaming, "finally turning point is here!"
es.. it is in Sec. 3012.
If I'm reading correctly, it is capped at $500 per individual or $1,000 per couple.
ah, never mind. To a Georgist that's about right since aggressive land-value taxes should fall on those with above-median land tenancies, not below-median.
Section 3023 FHLB bonds are now are tax-exempt.
Is this a change? If it is, it seems like it could be a huge expansion of eligible tax-exempt bonds.
I did my own assessment of the housing rescue bill on my blog as well.
I included a link to Karl Denninger's video as well. Many of you have probably already seen it. If not it's worth a look.
Fed just takes over 2 more banks, one in CA the other in NV.
The dominoes are starting to fall...
Finally, we have energy efficient mortgages!
" FHA Manufactured Housing Loan Modernization Act of 2008 - (Sec. 143) Amends the NHA to exempt a manufactured home or its lot from the prohibition against FHA insurance exceeding 10% of the total amount of a financial institution's loans, advances of credit, and purchases."
I live in the south were there are a lot of mobilehome + land packages sold. This seems to be a big givaway to the mobilehome plus land dealers. They generally set up the land, home, and financing as a package. Something like a car dealership does. Limiting an instutition to 10% of deals forces more people into the transaction. I could see a corrupt mobilehome dealer paring with a corrupt financing arm and creating a huge mess.
Are people even aware the FHA insures no-down mobile home deals?? I wonder what the default rate is compared to regular no-down housing deals.
AllenF..
The appreciation is shared between the "Secretary" (the FHA?) and the "mortgagor" (ie, the borrower) for the first five years.
`(1) FIVE-YEAR PHASE-IN FOR EQUITY AS A RESULT OF SALE OR REFINANCING- For each eligible mortgage insured under this section, the Secretary and the mortgagor of such mortgage shall, upon any sale or disposition of the property to which such mortgage relates, or upon the subsequent refinancing of such mortgage, be entitled to the following with respect to any equity created as a direct result of such sale or refinancing:
`(A) If such sale or refinancing occurs during the period that begins on the date that such mortgage is insured and ends 1 year after such date of insurance, the Secretary shall be entitled to 100 percent of such equity.
`(B) If such sale or refinancing occurs during the period that begins 1 year after such date of insurance and ends 2 years after such date of insurance, the Secretary shall be entitled to 90 percent of such equity and the mortgagor shall be entitled to 10 percent of such equity.
etc.
There is a provision for the Secretary to allocate some of his/her share to the earlier subordinate lien holders who got little or nothing during the refinance.
(i) IN GENERAL- The Board shall establish standards and policies that will allow for the payment to the holder of any existing subordinate mortgage of a portion of any future appreciation in the property secured by such eligible mortgage that is owed to the Secretary pursuant to subsection (k).
Sorry forgot to post the link on the bank failures:
FDIC takes over two more failed banks - Mortgage Mess- msnbc.com
"(Sec. 1013) Extends through 2009 the tax credit for residential energy efficient property expenditures. Repeals the $2,000 limitation on the tax credit for solar electric property. Allows an offset against the AMT of tax credit amounts."
So is there a limit one can spend on solar energy w'n one's property?
If I spend 100K on my McMansion how much in tax deduction can i claim?
(anyone, i am not a tax person ;( )
oops, old news, sorry : )
"(Sec. 149) Applies the prohibition against kickbacks and unearned fees ...(RESPA) to each sale of a manufactured home financed with an FHA-insured loan"
So the anti-kickback rules didn't apply to mobilehomes until now??
By the way, both Obama and McCain didn't vote.
I guess it's more important to win an election than to show the American people how you feel about the important issues.
"Prohibits granting FHA ... made to finance a manufactured home intended to be located in a manufactured home community pursuant to a lease, unless the lease meets specified leasehold requirements, including an initial, renewable term of at least three years."
So FHA will insure mobilehome loans for mobile homes in space rent trailor parks with a 3 year land lease!!??
My grandad hated FDR and the so called 'New Deal'. He was a union steward meatpacker.
My pop hated LBJ, 'The Great Society' and Tricky Dick to boot. He was a carpet salesman.
I guess hating commie pinko neo-con plutacrats runs in the family.
Sad sad day in America. Which way to the new world, please.
I just pulled up discussion from House floor on Wednesday. Found this:
Finance Committee Chairman FRANK and Ways and Means Committee Chairman RANGEL have asked the nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation to make available to the public a technical explanation of this legislation. The technical explanation, JCX6308, expresses the committees understanding and legislative intent behind this important legislation. It is available on the Joint Committee
on Taxation Web site, at www.jct.gov.
Following the link there is a table regarding revenue, etc. Looks like most of the bill will be paid by:
-Require information reporting on payment card and third party payment transactions.
- Delay for two years implementation of worldwide interest allocation and apply 70% limitation on the first year of worldwide interest allocation
Is the first provision a stealth tax on the Internet?
CR, et al, patriots and bloggers alike,
I have go get a snax, but in The Pension Protection Act, the main mechanical component that SIFMA wanted to push, was exemptions for underwriters, which relates to accountability and opening floodgates, thus I suggest someone download this beast in pdf form and do a search for underwriters and exemptions ASAP. What good it will do now that the whores have cut fat deals, may not be an issue, but these whores in many cases need re-elected, thus any collusion or connection to any abuse in this legal mumbo jumbo should be used against them, regardless if they are Dems, Repubs, Northern, Southern, etc........HELP!
If only there were a line-item veto.
tj & the bear | 07.26.08 - 8:51 pm | #
What makes you thihnk the current fool (or the next, or the one after) wouldn't just use it veto the part eliminating DAP's and sign the rest? Be careful what you wish for.
Sorry to dupe my comment from the previous thread, but there has to be a scandal in the Chrysler handout. Dan Quayle is (was?) the Chmn of Global Investment at Cerberus and engineered the deal to buy back Chrysler for &7.6B from Daimler only a year ago.
Tom writes:
By the way, both Obama and McCain didn't vote.
Obama was in the air flying back from England, McCain was taking his usual weekend break from campaigning.
"So is there a limit one can spend on solar energy w'n one's property?
"
There was a limit onhome much of your solar power was tax deductible. It appears that the might be no limit now. Also, solar panel expenses can be used to offset the ATM tax. I bet we see lots of panels in the non-sunny northeastern blue states from this one.
Tom,
Good writeup on your blog, but realistically the GSEs didn't have to buy any "bad" loans to get into trouble. The bubble pretty much assured their destruction, as inflated values were the basis for way too many prime loans, too.
Is there a line in there anywhere about ass raping the American people or did they leave that one out.
Obama was in the air flying back from England, McCain was taking his usual weekend break from campaigning.
If there were political points to be had, they'd have been there.
Mandates the establishment of underwriting standards which allow the FHA to insure mortgage loans for qualified borrowers who have existing mortgages with adverse terms or rates, qualified borrowers who do not have access to mortgages at reasonable rates and terms for such refinancings due to adverse market conditions, and qualified borrowers who are in default or at imminent risk of being in default (Sec. 210).
The bubble pretty much assured their destruction, as inflated values were the basis for way too many prime loans, too.
I think most of Congress ACTUALLY believes the problem is confined to subprime, especially given the focus of the $4B redevelopment grants.
Subtitle B - Dealer Sales
Reduces from four to two years the REIT safe harbor holding period for purposes of the exemption from the tax on income from prohibited transactions
Revises the amounts of sales in a taxable year that qualify for the prohibited transactions tax safe harbor to allow sales 10% of the aggregate bases of all assets in an REIT or 10% of the aggregate fair market value of all assets in an REIT.
Section 602 -
Allows the use of qualified mortgage bond proceeds to refinance subprime residential mortgages. Increases to $10 billion in 2008 the volume cap for such bonds. Exempts tax-exempt interest from such bonds from the AMT.
I've never read a single article in the "agenda-setting/mainstream" media about the current housing crash that didn't attribute it to subprime. They're so f-cking lazy and stupid.
Short treasuries.
To all reading the bill online... <a href="http://www.jct.gov/x-63-08.pdf>this Joint Committee on Taxation report might help you wade through all the mumbo-jumbo. It also includes the enactment dates. It's 72 PDF long... answered a few of my questions.
So FHA will insure mobilehome loans for mobile homes in space rent trailor parks with a 3 year land lease!!??
The snarky view would be that FHA is preparing for a plethora of home owners downgrading their living standards. Once the mcmansion gets FC'ed, a mobile home in a spare rent park may be the best choice left.
I think it does put a temporary floor on prices after it takes effect, but the lenders are going to eat it either way and that means tighter credit.
Also, this will take a long time to gain traction and get up to speed. Remember the Katrina response? Interestingly, it may not be truly effective until after the general election (or later).
How the housing rescue bill can help you - Jul. 26, 2008
"This is a voluntary program, so lenders holding the original mortgage have to agree to rework a given loan before things can get started. The bill requires lenders to make major concessions, writing down the value of the loan to 90% of the home's current value. In areas where prices have plummeted by as much as 20%, that will mean a substantial loss for the lender.
But lenders won't sign off on a workout unless they think that they'll lose less money on that than they would by allowing a home to go through the costly foreclosure process.
Each loan will have to be underwritten by an FHA lender on a case-by-case basis. That means the banks will do a new appraisal to determine the home's current value, as well as examine and verify income statements, bank accounts, job histories and credit scores."
PS - it's still a polished terd.
Rayonthefarm,
Or that mobile home park owners give big bucks to congress. Don't fool yourself those park generate big bucks.
: Dealer Sales - Reduces from four to two years the Energy Policy ActREIT safe harbor holding period for purposes of 2005 to direct the Secretary of Energy to implement a cash prize (H-Prize) program to advance research, development, demonstration, and commercial application of hydrogen energy technologies.exemption from the tax on income from prohibited transactions
Authorizes appropriations Revises the amounts of sales in a taxable year that qualify for such program for FY2008-FY2017.the prohibited transactions tax safe harbor to allow sales 10% of the aggregate bases of all assets in an REIT or 10% of the aggregate fair market value of all assets in an REIT.
I think it does put a temporary floor on prices after it takes effect
Sorry, I just don't see it. If anything it'll accelerate the decline.
The $7500 "refundable tax credit" is only available until next July.
From House debate:
First, the bill uses the Bush administrations credit card reporting proposal which obligates third-party financial institutions that process credit card payments to report to the IRS on annual credit card receipts to a business.
As if there was any question as to who put that provision in. Indeed, Republicans are traitors!
One of my favorite meme's repeated over and over: There is currently a 101⁄2-month supply of unsold homes, double the 10-year average. Home prices have been falling, defaults on foreclosures have been on the rise, and this contraction in the residential real estate market has become an anchor on our economy.
You fool! You're only going to make it a bigger anchor! But don't worry everyone:
The stakes are simply too high
and the risk of an even broader, more
expensive financial bailout down the
road is too great. And for that reason, I will, with great reluctance, support the legislation before us todaynotwithstanding its numerous flawsas it includes the plan developed by Secretary Paulson to provide a temporary Federal backstop in order to protect taxpayers from potentially enormous future exposure and our economy from perhaps unprecedented harm.
I hope his fingers weren't crossed when he said it was the last bailout.
Sam Johnson of Texas! I think he might read this blog...
Apparently, Daniel Mudd, the CEO of
Fannie Mae, received $11.6 million in
salary, stock, and other compensation
for 2007. Richard Syron, CEO of Freddie Mac, took home about $18.3 million last year. On top of his salary, stock options, and a $3.5 million bonus, Freddie Mac paid for a number of other perks for Syron such as a car and driver, a home security system, travel costs for his wife, even $100,000 to pay his lawyer to negotiate his employment contract with the bank. Now everyone knows Im a strong supporter of freedom and free enterprise, but this is ridiculous, and I think even you all would agree.
I do not believe
we should ask people who rent
homes or apartments and all of the
people who reasonably and responsibly
saved for a home to foot the bill for all of the people who are in foreclosure. Thats just not right.
More to come, the debate prior to the vote is better reading than the bill.
So FHA will insure mobilehome loans for mobile homes in space rent trailor parks with a 3 year land lease!!??
Warren Buffett owns Clayton Homes.
GovTrack: Senate
Record:
AMERICAN HOUSING RESCUE AND FORECLOSURE...
(110-s20080625-8)
Crazy!...Almost unbelievable all the monkey ass nonsense you have going on down there!.....
You know we don't have any tax breaks on our personal real estate. We have funded health care, funded Canada Pension Plan, run balanced budgets, have a low national debt.
And most Canadians live in a house and are managing the mortgage............
Despite the most pollyanna-ish view on this bill, there should by now be no denying the real estate market is in deep deep trouble where the US financial and political authorities are throwing everything they can at it, over and over, with no end in sight. The dollar will indeed get thumped after all these misguided efforts at upending market forces. Far from over.
Hey, and Saturday bank failures?
"- Delay for two years implementation of worldwide interest allocation and apply 70% limitation on the first year of worldwide interest allocation"
What the hell is "worldwide interest allocation".
Thinking about this in light of Tanta's ubernerd posts on MBS's, do the lenders have the authority to do the work-arounds that congress wants to happen?
What is the percentage of mortgage loans that are not locked up in securities anyway?
If I understood, the trustee has real incentive not to modify and possible tax and legal liability for changing the terms of the loans. Does this bill address this, or is it signifying nothing?
Canadian watching with popcorn | 07.26.08 - 9:36 pm |
Not for long. Those crazy Yankee assclowns down south are going to destroy evrything.
Canadian watching with popcorn for President..................
Just move the Mexican boarder up to the 49th!.............
Where's the video of Karl Denninger's head exploding?
There's no such thing as the PPT, it is merely the madness of crowds.
Click heels three times:
There's no PPT.
There's no PPT.
There's no PPT.
There's no PPT...
Don't try to understand this bricolage. (I still say a bricole is a catapult).
It will mean whatever the Feds say it means. It ain't been court tested yet.
Anyone else Dohme Denched in the late 80's? It was popularly known as Doom Denched. A 1942 obscure court ruling that basically subjected even the honest to the vagaries of the RTC.
The Government has become oppressive. Where have I heard language like that before.
What's with the inferiority complex from our Norhtern neighbors?
(1) 10%/yr for first 5 yrs, 50-50 thereafter -- [Little confused by this, are FHA & lender sharing the appreciation??? does the owner really get nothing?]
Well, appreciation gains are limited but the owner gets the value of the writedown plus free 13% in new equity at the refinancing. (I believe both windfalls are tax free).
It's great that every American who saved for a downpayment gets to watch people with 100% financing option ARMs get free equity.
"Worldwide interest allocation" is a 2004 tax break for international corporations that was not supposed to start until 2009. It would allow them to avoid US taxes by making favorable interest expense allocations to US subsidiaries. Implementation has now been further delayed, meaning multinational corporations will lose a deduction and pay more taxes.
ARW | 07.26.08 - 9:52 pm |
That was sarcasm, right?
Canadian mit ze popcorn.
Wouldn't be suprised that within 50 years, Canada becomes the 51st 52nd and 53rd states. Screw Kebek. No French allowed. We speak spanglish now.
Oh did I mention we have lots of water, oil, gas, food and friends................
If you thought we had appraisal fraud in the past...
"Wouldn't be suprised that within 50 years, Canada becomes the 51st 52nd and 53rd states."
I think that it might be rather more likely that the FDIC and the FED will force a marriage between us. We'll take the first billion in losses and you guys will be on the hook for the other 28 Trillion.
Canadian mit ze popcorn,
Damn son. Don't you know not to tell people what you keep in your safe? I mean, we might try a leveraged buyout of Canada but a hostile takeover is definately not out of the question!
By the way. Where do you store your nukes?
Like I said we have friends, China, Russia, EU, I don't know where they hide their nukes, you will have to ask them..................
I don't know about the dollar, but this certainly isn't the "end of capitalism." This is business as usual for capitalism and the "free markets," since the "invisible hand" has never been able to dig itself out of the mess it creates with nerve-wrecking regularity without some help from the public. So once again, public the savior is pushed into service to give a helping hand. Nothing new here but the details.
Rob Dawg, you're wrong, 9 CA House Republicans voted against the bill.
Republicans -- Bilbray, N; Bono Mack, Y; Calvert, Y; Campbell, Y; Doolittle, N; Dreier, Y; Gallegly, Y; Herger, N; Hunter, Y; Issa, N; Lewis, Y; Lungren, Daniel E., Y; McCarthy, N; McKeon, Y; Miller, Gary, Y; Nunes, N; Radanovich, N; Rohrabacher, N; Royce, N.
We might try a leveraged buyout of Canada.......
Hahahahahaha
I wonder...if the 2nd has the potential to share in an equity gain, how will it recognize the loss and then the potential revenue?
Equity gains?! Am I missing something? Is that the bail out or are people suggesting that house prices may go up? If the latter then pass the hash.
Canadian mit ze popcorn,
So, you are saying the Chinese will send gunboats up the Yukon to protect their laundry interests?
Maybe you should adopt US. We are all canucks now and our currency is as sound as the Loonie.
Just funning ya C. I got some good hard Yankee dollars invested in your country.
You guys still curtsie to the Queen? Still wearing them plaid skirts and catterwailling with them sheep gut squeelers?
Ah, the pipes.
Canadian watching with popcorn | 07.26.08 - 10:04 pm |
I've learned that there is always a trollish argument of this nature whenever the subject of Canada is broached. I've had 'em with byzantine and barely and others. Bunch of sunsetting, neo imperialist, armchair generals. I'm surprised that they are even able to type with the slurpee in one hand and the 7-11 burrito in the other.
Angry Renter writes:
Rob Dawg, you're wrong, 9 CA House Republicans voted against the bill.
I must have been looking at an incomplete list and/or counted wrong. Or else I foolishly relied on the LA Times for my information.
I'm sorry but our Congresspeople sound like NAR spokespeople about "house as a tool to build wealth"!
I wonder what's going to happen now?
un autre canadien avec popcorn
Don't worry, Bin is running around the desert on his camel handing their asses to them in a handbucket. I don't think they would want to test our Mohawk Warriors for a second time.
Canadian mit ze popcorn.
Don't go all touchy feely on us. Yah, we are mostly slashy burny types that police ze vorld.
Imperialist? You betcha. The only thing I admired about Bush was his foreign policy. He will be remembered as one of the 'good' emperors.
The next one will probably be gaul but he will be no Tiberius.
"The best bailout is one where the gov. helps people move out of houses they can't afford with the least damage to the social fabric".
Yeah, I agree, but as so many in Congress and the Senate have said-outright- that this not_about communities, this is about PROPERTY VALUES.
Over and over we have heard them say - "this bailout will help you all, even if you're NOT defaulting because *less foreclosures in your neighborhood means higher property values.
They've been gunning for overpriced RE for a decade and never gave a sh*t how many people got hurt by the high prices.
Now, prices are FINALLY falling and they want to KEEP THEM HIGH.
Our reactive Congress is pathetic. I wonder what a proactive Congress is like..
Here's the final House and Senate vote. A lot of Republicans in Florida, Ohio, and Cali took politically tough votes against the bill (after all the GOP president supports it). Special props to Nevada's Senator Ensign and Arizona's Jon Kyl for their No votes. The sad thing was we had enough House votes to support a veto but Bush absolutely caved in.
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2008/roll519.xml
U.S. Senate: Legislation & Records Home > Votes > Roll Call Vote
Canadian mit ze popcorn,
Mohawks? Like I had one ancestor from an Algonquin tribe. Another was Blackfoot. Mohawks don't hold a candle to Blackfoots.
Actually when my son was in Y-Indian Guides (oh that's been changed for PC purposes) I was Hawkeye and he was Chinachgook.
I always wish good luck to my brothers canuck.
Peace.
Would it be reckless to sell 10 year US treasuries and short stocks at the same time?
So basically the objections to the bill:
- Blank check power to the Treasury and raising national debt. I actually think this is the main objection from most Congressmen.
- We are taxing Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae.
- Those taxes are going to local groups that decidedly help the left.
- Republicans weren't allowed to add amendments to the bill, this was a "take it or leave it" bill.
- Freddie and Fannie are too big to fail, but I don't like this bill.
- Freddie and Fannie shouldn't have government backing.
They don't realize this is pissing in the wind (or they don't want to tell us that). They think helping 400k people stave off foreclosure is useful? They don't seem to understand that falling house values is the only solution... (well, we could have massive inflation). I hope in a couple of years Barney Frank gets sent to prison and becomes someone's "Bubba".
hr 3221 eas2 is 634 pages long. this might be longer than the Patriot act.
that should improve the employment report.
Is there a provision in there to mandate continuation of Home Flipping Shows for all eternity, just to make sure houses stay really really expensive?
All I can say is this is one Californian who will not be voting for a single incumbent in November..... Lying, thieving bastards. May all your homes be foreclosed upon. Lookin' right you Laura Richardson, I'm in your district.
asty blogginses, when we finds precious, we will show the nasty blogginses.
does tanning in ones backyard, at a cost of , oh, say, your monthy mortgage nut, count as solar energy expense?
Thanks for the summary, YLSP.
Could you explain what you mean by this?
- We are taxing Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae.
tia
On the equity sharing:
AngryRenter, I believe the 13% implicit equity (10% from appraisal hair-cut, 3% points for FHA insurance) is not the home-debtors, it's the FHA's. At least for the first year. After that it is shared between the FHA and the home-debtor.
What I don't understand is what happens if the home-debtor does a no-money out refi. It would seem in that circumstance the FHA gets nothing. Yes, this seems a big give-away to irresponsible home-debtors. All they have to do it sit tight for 5 years and they are bailed out.
And as someone else said, I think this does put a floor under housing at the point incomes can service home prices on a 30yr fixed amoritization. Are we there yet? Probably enough people see the write-down as godsend that they will make necessary sacrifices and the foreclosures and distressed sales can subside. I don't see anything in the way of future appreciation though. Actually for the next five years a much slower decline as the 10% of FHA equity leaks away.
I agree, no votes for the incumbents in California. I have owned my home for 15 years and I see many young coworkers struggle to get a home for themselves. This bill will only help get home prices beyond wages. Not to mention pay off all the companies the stole the monies.
I can only hope this bill fails to do anything near what they are trying to accomplish.
My take to the U.S. Governement..
F#@k off, try finding my taxes after changing w-4 to exempt, opening llc and doing everything I can to not give you a penny of my money. I have 4 years until daughter graduates. Good luck finding me after that..Into the wild with all my exempt tax money that you didn't receive stored in silver and gold bars buried where you'll never find it..Adaptability is a bitch..
I will not pay for someone elses house, or take the chance that I might..
This bill has created something that the the public and govt doesnt want, a person who knows how to cheat but didnt and now will...What will you do, throw me in prison for cheating on my taxes while you let the pigmen, borrowers and congress cheat on housing....$#%k off feinstein, boxer, bush, paulson, bernanke and all others..
rant off-time for some belvedere..
Tom writes:
By the way, both Obama and McCain didn't vote.
Where is this info available?
F'ing McCain wrote an editorial blasting this thing, and he didn't even vote against it?
"...What will you do, throw me in prison for cheating on my taxes while you let the pigmen, borrowers and congress cheat on housing...."
well as a matter of fact........
My Balls itch
All righty all settled then, now they can get to work on the 99 trillion in unfunded liabilities..............
"Would it be reckless to sell 10 year US treasuries and short stocks at the same time?"
Actualy it would be better to just short the whole damn US. I eat my own cooking.
AllanF:
What I don't understand is what happens if the home-debtor does a no-money out refi. It would seem in that circumstance the FHA gets nothing.
FHA gets its share in either sale or refi. for all time periods.
eg.
F) If such sale or refinancing occurs during any period that begins 5 years after such date of insurance, the Secretary shall be entitled to 50 percent of such equity and the mortgagor shall be entitled to 50 percent of such equity.
"I think Congress actually believes that the problem is confined to subprime.."
Probably. Congressmen/women are pretty well off, compared to a lot of their recent neighbors who had to go all in and take out pay option loans to live in the same neighborhood.
A lot of 'em (notwithstanding the CA. nitwit congresswoman who foreclosed on 3 properties) probably also had the sense to buy in earlier in the bubble and then stop, ie. they didn't have to buy at the top or near top.
Isn't it amazing what I did with this bill? Aren't I audacious? I am superm m m m mman.
It's common for Senators running for president to miss votes because they're out campaigning...plus this wasn't really scheduled until yesterday and it was an unusual Saturday vote.
Hey, what's the beef?
Bobn,
The Senate roll call vote is at
U.S. Senate: Legislation & Records Home > Votes > Roll Call Vote
Angry,
Not disputing that, but this wasn't a common vote. Congresscritters almost never miss a vote they feel is important to their career.
I've watched McCain and I don't think he really wants to win. People who want to win campaign on weekends.
Also the media showed him getting out of some sort of vehicle, and he did it like an old man.
I wouldn't want to be prez come 2009.
And I repeat that the part about re-fis just isn't gonna happen, unless the banks are forced to do it. THAT legislation won't even be thought of for well over a year, and couldn't go into effect for a year or 2 after that, and by that time who knows how many lenders will be left standing?
Are refi's part of the package, that is if you purchased before 2005 but did a refi during the 05 to 07?
McCain didn't write a thing....his "peeps" did and he just used a pen....
Now does anyone else think that the site of over 200k people cheering on Obama in Germany last week didn't scare the holy crap out of every single neo-conservative alive?? I think even the dead ones like Rand were afraid...
Hehe
Ciao
MS
Seems that the new bill giveth & taketh away, the DAP. For those who get their loan cut to 85% of market, presumably a much greater haircut to purchase point, they get a retroactive DAP... huge. Current stooges don't. This is a massive wealth realocation - nothing less. It's done to favor the dumbest or biggest risk takers, over the responsible americans. Pathetic.
National polls are meaningless; state-by-state Mac stacks BO befo' Novemba' fo'.
Hey, I just read this thing over and you gotta be sh^&*ing me right? I mean is this thing for real. I mean I love it. Tell you what though, I think maybe it would be a whole lot easier if peoples wages were just paid to the government to dole out as it, we, it, whatever, sees fit. That'd be good. Waddya think Hank?
Did the final bill include the tax write offs for home builders?
Cool, love it. If the fees are good, and they will be.
YLSP-
I saw the debate on C-span, watched the whole dang thing, eyes and ears glued to the TV.
The Republicans who spoke against the bailout (and lets remember there were 149 Repubs,. AGAINST the bailout, vs. 3 Dems) were so eloquent that I'll never vote Democrat again. Period.
Never been a knee jerk voter before but watching the Dems fall all over themselves fot the past YEAR and a HALF to "keep prices high" has sickened and horrified me. That vote on Wednesday was the last straw.
The Repubs really really got it- that it's obscene to ask American workers to pay for this clusterf*ck.
Glad there's a transcript out there.
Check out the comments of 21 or so Republicans who spoke out.
I'm calling Nancy Kaptur, D. Ohio, on Monday to thank her for her bravery in standing up against her fellow Dems., and then that'll be it for me as far as that totally worthless party goes.
AllanF, that looks right... its confusing because there's also a 50-50 sharing appreciation above the appraised value later in the section.
Until the government repeals physical laws this isn't going to do much.
"Until the government repeals physical laws this isn't going to do much."
Yeah, everyone's going to try even harder to make their mortgage payments on time now.
Kurtyboy, dude......
don't be a buzzkill
There are many things we can do to cure deflation.
Right on Benny boy. You got 'er pontiac.
Bravo,
Both Texas senate persons voted against this putrid afterbirth.
When they brush aside the decayed and rotting pond scum, they will see themselves and wonder why their noses grew and why they have warts ahoy.
The threads of misconclusions are woven into the fabric of their lives.
If I were Oblama bin Hue-sane Tarikstein, OK let's call him Bob, I would try to throw this election to gerrymander ops geriatric Ivan Mac Caner and let him relive, Nah the Viets are our friends now.
A bigger throw away election I have never seen. Whoever wins, I hope the Praetorian Guard has their bayonets sharpened.
"There are no ugly women. Just too little vodka"
Ta
If only there were a line-item veto.
tj & the bear | 07.26.08 - 8:51 pm | #
If you want that then just abolish congress and have a dictator & be done with it. Line item veto = rubber stamp pretend congress.
Bush can veto if he had balls - or individual senators could have actually filibustered to force cloture - neither happened.
There is no substitute for good policy executed by capable & honest leadership - we get what we vote for, we got neither. Take it to the ballot box and if that doesn't do it - to the streets.
That is A LOT better than a line item veto.
ROFLMAO
Usama bin Muhammad bin `Awad bin Ladi
Ross, sweet putrescence, you should come live up here. You sound like you might fit in.
IS there anywhere on this bill where it says that credit card transactions should be reported to the IRS?
I did search for "IRS" or "Credit Card" on the pdf file and found nothing. This is strange.
Just taking a break. I'm on page 439.
Here's a little article that might warrant some outrage. Tanta wrote about his a while back. The story went from offensive to unbelievable. Now it's just sick.
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/state&id=6289204
Boo, oust the fuckers!
Line item veto = rubber stamp pretend congress.
How do you figure? The president can't sign anything that doesn't come to him from Congress, plus line-item vetos work well at the state level.
Uncle B, what a nice thing to see you here; are you really Tanata
Geritol Johnny "I don't know nuttin' bout the economy" McCain is a skeerd little rabbit because he knows he's going to get his head handed to him for being a flip-flopping fool.
This is surreal. Welfare for the rich.
Ya know 'bout that "other shoe" people keep talking about?
I think it just hit terminal velocity.
Rob Dawg- today on CNN I heard a dumb@ss (or lying?) reporter say that HR 3221 passed the House with "broad bipartisan support".
Say What??!!!!
149 Republican nays. One Hundred Forty Nine Against. 45 voted yea. Wow. Lots of Republican support for that bill. Not.
Dems: 229 yea. 3 Nay . Pitiful
So yeah, the LA Times probably reported it wrong.
There seems to be a concerted effort to lie about this one in the media. It's pretty blatant. Vote tally ing is in NUMBERS. Numbers don't lie.
But I guess they're depending on people not checking the numbers for themselves, or forgetting about the whole thing in a week or two, as Americans are want to do.
Why is it that no one puts blame on George W? I guess he is going to ride off into the sunset smelling like a rose. BTW he will be the one signing this bill next week.
"I hope Barney Frank gets sent to prison in a couple years .."
I agree with the prison part YSLP, but can we get him in there like, NEXT WEEK?
Every day this guy is free he is just f%cking Americans more and more.
Please Massachusetts VOTE this guy OUT! Please!
And I repeat that the part about re-fis just isn't gonna happen, unless the banks are forced to do it....
Lawyerliz
If the banks can phony up the appraisals, (they've had lots of practice!) they'll flock to dump their worst crap on USG. And the purchasing of GSE stock, or some other shenanigans tranferring public money into private hands, will happen within minutes of the bill being signed.
Shrubbery let this happen. He can claim ignorance until he the day he lands in prison but he is complicit in this mess.
W will be blamed deservedly for this and a whole lot of other stuff.
By the way, did you all notice the thing where McCain said he didn't
know how to work the internet?
Also, one of the Appollo astronauts sez that Roswell was real and the gov-mint is hiding the fact that aliens have visited many times. He really said that. NASA is ignoring it.
Maybe we can get the aliens to abduct a large number of congresspersons.
Nitey nite.
How much money do I get. F all of you, it's about me, me, me.
YouTube - Apple presents the iRack
Take it to the ballot box
If only that were an option. To even get on the ballot box disqualifies the worthy.
.
Anonymous writes:
Is there a line in there anywhere about ass raping the American people or did they leave that one out.
Anonymous
As a sop to the taxpayers, we are allowed to provide vaseline.
The election in Mexico was stolen, just like it was when Bush took over! in 2001
bobn I agree. The main concern I have about this bill is allowing bank appriasers to come up with a fair value estimate.
STOP!
We all know democrats are socialists, they run on a socialist platform. But we voted for a republican Senate and Presidency to stop this nonsense. What do we get, double the national debt in 7 years. Limited civil liberties, open boarders, massive spending and let us not forget the secret trials at Camp Pendleton to imprison our bravest troops.
Republicans could have easily stopped this, they still control the Senate and Presidency. And it was only 3 years ago that they controlled all branches of government.
Teach these traitors a lesson and do not vote for any republicans.
If asked would 99% of Americans know what HR 3221 is?.............
Hey did you hear the latest about Britney...............
it's going to be a Republican that is going to sign this bill.
Look folks, I ain't the sharpest tool in the woodshed but using Occam's razor, it seems to me that the 'powers' want a form of semi-voluntary survitude. Keep the rubes in the houses so they can pay the Man. If we all have to take a 15% haircut, we will make it up off the masses that didn't squander their credit and still have real jobs.
It reeks of a combination of coersion and blackmail with an added layer of pseudo compassion. That's the hook. Compassion...We loves the little folk.
Pass a law that says that no elected official can take a job after service other than what he/she was doing prior to being elected. Billillary would have been baking cookies and pumping gas rather than collecting $65 millionas as an after bribe. An after bribe defined as 'do as we want and we will pay you later'. Perfectly legal, da?
Roswell? Isn't that where the fake moon landings were filmed?.............
"Why is it that no one puts the blame on George Bush....?"
ummm.....because he's one person out of the 269 a$$hats who VOTED for this POS?
It may be impossible to say nice things about Bush and his refusal to veto.
But we've got more than 269 others who actually made it possible for this crap to reach his desk.
Bush is such a jerk that it's easy to blame him for everything.
But on this one, I blame these criminals who voted for it in the first place. They deserve it ,IMO.
Ok, I'm an unpatriotic loser. i work, rent, owe nothing and pay taxes. Maybe it's not too late for me. What can I steal? Any suggestions appreciated.
I want to add my best efforts to those of my fellow citizens. With just a little more effort we can totally destroy the country.
Really, we can do it. Destruction you can count on.
George if your for this raise your right hand..............
No George your other right hand............
"The main concern I have with this bill is allowing bank appraisers to come up with a fair value estimate"
Boy ain't that the truth. How stupid is that when it's been shown that they constantly have overinflated appraisals.
Maybe Schumer will get on it. Or, more likely they'll just shut down that investigation he started against WAMU and others altogether.
The sad thing was we had enough House votes to support a veto but Bush absolutely caved in.
Angry Renter
Once the Paulson scheme got added in, W just couldn't resist: "all that public money going to rich people - yeehaw!"
Waidaminnit -- isn't this the same provision that got struck out of the 'internet gambling' thing tacked onto the port security bill, back again?
The gummint gets all of everyone's credit card transaction records, just for curious browsing?
This part:
The provision requires any payment settlement entity making payment to a participating payee in settlement of reportable payment transactions to report annually to the IRS and to the
participating payee the gross amount of such reportable payment transactions, as well as the
name, address, and TIN of the participating payees. A reportable payment transaction means
any payment card transaction and any third party network transaction.
Rainy Day,
(F) If such sale or refinancing occurs during any period that begins 5 years after such date of insurance, the Secretary shall be entitled to 50 percent of such equity and the mortgagor shall be entitled to 50 percent of such equity.
But if it is a no-money out refi what's the "such equity".
I guess one could argue it's the 10% write-down portion, but I'm not sure I see that in the text.
Oh sorry. Portland_Allan == AllanF (I changed computers)
I'm starting a new blog, NOT. To be called 'the cucking stool'. It is a place where we can cyber-pillory the town Mayor or the town drunk. Even, dare I say men/wohmen in positions of power.
Once pilloried, we send them to Gulog.com./tm
You don't want to know what happens in the Gulog. It stays in the Gulog.
Confessions heard daily. Fake remorse will NOT be rewarded with black bread and Kvas.
Ok. The toaster was put on dark for the evening. Bell bottom blues and fading comes to mind.
Ta ta
Some day this war will start.
Regarding the shared appreciation:
If I was the proud recipient of the FHA shave-and-harcuit and I had subsequent appreciation of the property, why couldn't I cut Uncle Sam out of the shared appreciation by "selling" to some intermediate party at some low/no appreciated value. The intermediate party can then re-sell at higher market value and rebate or kick back some dough to the original seller thereby cutting Uncle Sam out of the gain? Of course, this assumes there would be appreciation. There would also be tax implications but I am sure someone will figure how to rig this.
Yeah, well we also carry vaseline at Leftys. Its next to the party hats, passports, and drivers licenses.
Nostradamus, I think you are on to something. Looking the bill over - THERE IS MONEY TO BE MADE!!!
Capitalism wins agai
"There are no ugly women. Just too little vodka"
Ta
Ross
ROTFLMAO
OK, how about some predictions on the un-intended consequences of this bill? I'm sure there will be some doozies... Mish is always good at predicting them.
Higher interest rates seems to be a common one.
How about more housing supply as retired or fixed-income folks have to sell to make ends meet during the new inflationary era? Along the same lines, will household formation shift into reverse?
Looking for some CR genius input here.
This bill is an outrage. Where the EF is my bailout? I'm just as deserving as any of these other turnips.
I wish there was some way just to make the entire federal government go away.
How do you figure? The president can't sign anything that doesn't come to him from Congress, plus line-item vetos work well at the state level.
tj & the bear | 07.26.08 - 11:21 pm | #
The states w/ line item vetoes have VERY strong governors and very weak state assemblies - virtual dictatorships.
Its far better to kill the whole bill via overall veto or pass & sign the whole bill than allow the executive to selectively rewrite the legislation via line-item-veto.
The thing that has made our system work is real check-n-balance. It makes them play well together...
I'd rather see a parliamentary gov't w/ vote of no confidence & new snap elections than a line item veto.
::::
There are middle ground compromises though that forces more discipline during the crafting of a bill - one is to allow 'interested parties' to contest in court legislation AFTER it is voted up by the legislative & signed by the executive to determine if ALL articles of the bill are 'germane'. If a section isn't germane then the court can order the whole bill back to the legislative for rewriting as separate bills to vote up/down individually by the legislative & signed individually by the executive.
The Cerberus/Chrysler section if placed under this scrutiny would certainly have been determined to be 'not germane' to the topic of home lending & mortgage reform. The whole bill would have to go back for rewrite as multiple bills - each with their own vote and signing (if they survive).
Congress knowing that would happen - wouldn't even try to craft earmarks & grab bag large omnibus bills like this. They work very hard to make sure the bills remained 'germane'.
That is a FAR better process than line-item-vetoes & produces a more 'democratic' result.
bobn I agree. The main concern I have about this bill is allowing bank appriasers to come up with a fair value estimate.
Ministry of Truth
Yep. That is absolutely where the rubber hits the road on this part. Not encouraging.
This sort of confirms that we did have money after all for social security before this crisis or I'm going to read it that way until somebody shoots it down. Fire away!
I too worry that banks will stick it to the taxpayer with false appraisals, thus minimizing their losses.
However, I imagine those false appraisals will be more difficult to pull off in an environment of declining prices, no? I mean, if you have a house in a foreclosure neighborhood where list prices are dropping and houses are sitting, isn't that a little easier to spot? I mean easier to spot than when prices were skyrocketing, and you could just say, "Well, it's crazy, but it's worth whatever the market will pay".
ShortCourage writes:
OK, how about some predictions on the un-intended consequences of this bill?
I should think everyone sees the elephant. Maintenance and improvement has been disincentivised and tax fraud has been entrenched. One need only look sat our sad previous experience with public housing to know where we are headed.
Mine too Janet.
149 Republican nays. One Hundred Forty Nine Against. 45 voted yea. Wow. Lots of Republican support for that bill. Not.
That is wide non-partisan support by modern congressional standards... it is more support than Bush got from Dems when they were in the minority on many of his initiatives that passed with what was then termed 'nonpartisan support'.
You get a quarter of the other guys - that's pretty non-partisan. In the 90s Gingerich forced the GOP minority to vote lock step in opposition (near zero defections). Last couple years the Dems did the same thing under Pelosi & Ried. Result is they both overturned the standing majority in the next upcoming election... it could happen again.
It is easy to oppose as the minority... its a real bitch to lead & govern as a majority - both parties have learned that recently.
Furious,
Federable Gummints don't go away. Wee need em for pertektion. They pertek me from you and us from thems.
I get your point but there ain't no escape. Everyone needs to do their own DD and protect themselves and those they love and cherish.
Really ironic but in 1979 I wrote a paper about "China, our last best hope." I thought we were toast then but China might give us another generation of growth. And it came to pass.
Silly me but they got rid of their 'gang of three' or was it four? Well, if we can get rid of our 'gang of 4' we could start to heal and be great again.
A Banana republic with nukes will only serve us for a decade or so. I really expect some 'great fact man' to step up to the challange and lead us across the slough of despond.
God, I'm only tempering my cynic nature with a faint ray of hope.
Rob Dawg, can you explain this:
"Maintenance and improvement has been disincentivised and tax fraud has been entrenched."??
dryfly,
According to Wiki all but 7 states have line-item veto. I'd argue that selective deletion is not rewriting, either. Besides, if the gov wants something to come to him he usually has to give something in return.
We'll agree to disagree.
July 26th - The appraisers day.
"Maintenance and improvement has been disincentivised and tax fraud has been entrenched."??
I think he means that if you cannot sell your house and keep the profits why would you do maintenance and repairs. Or why would you do upgrades like new flooring or light fixtures.
Regarding tax fraud, I share the outrage of earlier comments, and I too am tempted to protest by tax avoidance.
I wonder if that will be another un-intended consequence? Will we see folks shift more heavily to the use of difficult-to-track use of cash and barter?
Probably not. This site and its outrage isn't very representative of the general population.
Still, wouldn't a website that facilitates such activity be a great idea (except that it would be squashed pretty much immediately!)?
Michael L, thanks.
I guess that wouldn't be a very widespread issue though, right? Just the small minority that actually get "helped" by the loan mods portion of the bill...
So that's a few scattered folks with no incentive to maintain and improve.
According to Wiki all but 7 states have line-item veto. I'd argue that selective deletion is not rewriting, either. Besides, if the gov wants something to come to him he usually has to give something in return.
We'll agree to disagree.
tj & the bear | 07.27.08 - 12:35 am | #
Most states have very weak rubber stamp legislatures. Those with LIV are among the weakest.
And I've heard of it done - where a governor will take a tiny section and strike just one word or phrase to completely change the meaning & intent of a bill. That is legislatures job - the executive signs or vetoes - if signed it executes.
GOP partisans who think Bush would do wisely as a line-item-decider in this instance... would they be as happy if say a democrat was president & congress was passing a tax cut or entitlement reduction and that democrat had line item authority to selectively strike sections of the bill so as to castrate it?
Just get rid of the legislature then.
Line item veto really is a can of worms that can't force competence & responsibility from incompetent executives & irresponsible legislatures.
Doesn't happen.
Broker,
You hit that one out of the park. Where do I sign up? Nah. I'm happy as an ignoramious. An old and crusty ignoramious but I still HAVE HOPE!
Adoption.com
If yer rich and need a granpaw for your adopted heathens or spoiled rug rats, I'm your guy. Will be willing not to report you to Child Welfare. Minimum wage plus room and board plus lots and lots of hush money.
BTW, my outrage would burn hottest if taxpayers contribute in any way to Fannie and Freddie while the shareholders of those companies are allowed to avoid their full losses.
That, and the obvious lunacy of proppinig up housing prices while at the same time pumping money into affordable housing initiatives!
itchy writes:
"Wouldn't be suprised that within 50 years, Canada becomes the 51st 52nd and 53rd states."
you got it backwards
US becomes the the 11th thru 60th of the provinces of canada
Okay, so I'm curious.
Precisely how does one short the treasury note? What's the mechanism behind it? Expect the demand to dry up, leading to a drop in price and rise in yield?
And how does one play that?
And y'know, my better half is steamed and she's a steel magnolia.
kinda like LawyerLiz.
Don't piss her off, either.
"republicans are traitors writes:
STOP!"
I disappointed with democrats much more. Instead of talking about rising taxes and balancing our budget and instead of allocating government money into energy efficient research they talk populist rumble.
The real issue though, would we vote for someone who spoke their mind instead of telling us what we want to hear?
"Maintenance and improvement has been disincentivised and tax fraud has been entrenched."??
Sorry, I sometimes forget I don't think like normal people. This will take a while so relax. The bailout details will be intimate, that is at a level the FB will understand. They are about to get a once in a lifetime personal debt reduction. The initial amount of their winnings depends upon a low appraisal. So much for routine upkeep. Then they face the prospect of any appreciation accruing a half rate. How many home improvement projects have 200% ROIs? Finally comes time to collect the winnings and get out from under the onerous terms of the bailout. Tract homeowners will start trading same floor plan models for $1000 plus broker fees over the 2008 bailout price. And therein lies the final straw. This event has the effect of suppressing home prices for at least a decade.
SC,
IMO the details of the bill are pretty much meaningless. The macro effect, OTOH, simply cannot be underestimated.
Amazingly enough, people know DC has chosen their destructor. They just don't know what form the destructor will take.
YouTube -
Imagine that you are an analyst at a chinese intelligence agency tasked with reading the better econ blogs. If they didn't grow up in an english speaking country, they must be have nervous breakdowns on a regular basis trying to decipher this stuff.
"Sir, we have made great progress on codeword 'ponies', the identities of CR and Tanta, but the new legislation... sir... it just seems too counterintuitive.
We are also zeroing in on the eaters of popcorn. They're strange, yet somehow familiar; they must really be Canadians. Canado-American relations appear to be polite yet strained. Signint chatter indicates that silos in Saskatchewan are open and pose an unknown threat.
Shortcourage, check it out:
The Barter Company
Plus I've heard tell of an increase in people who are using scrip to exchange services and goods.
The credit card reporting provision sounds like it should put an end to all the e-bay based businesses that depend on not reporting income to be profitable. Especially the little ones that won't be worth filing a return.
It sounds like a website for facilitating cash transactions would probably be a network covered by the reporting requirement.
Intentionally or otherwise, the government will cause an increase in the "black market". High inflation, higher taxes, poorer services... the incentives will be obvious.
Plus I've heard tell of an increase in people who are using scrip to exchange services and goods.
Uncle Billy Vs. Mt. Pelerin | Homepage | 07.27.08 - 1:02 am | #
Be careful - IRS still expects taxes on barter & exchange in king at 'market equivalents'...
I have IRS & DOJ family they say 'absolutely' that is the case... I also have a friend whose business failed because he was bartering services like crazy & didn't pay taxes on the 'fee equivalent' income it represented. Litigation killed him.
It isn't hard at all to audit somebody to show they aren't paying - might not capture 100% of the barter exchange - only have to show they are intensionally not reporting some to get a nasty conviction.
WAPO
Housing Bill Won't 'Perform Miracles'
Senate Approves Measure, but Critics Say Law Unlikely to Prevent Most Foreclosures
Housing Bill Won't 'Perform Miracles' - washingtonpost.com
FFDIC writes:
wp...8072601071.html
WAPO
Housing Bill Won't 'Perform Miracles'
Senate Approves Measure, but Critics Say Law Unlikely to Prevent Most Foreclosures
washingtonpost.com - nation, world, technology and Washington area news and headlines
FFDIC | 07.27.08 - 1:09 am | #
Sure it will... it will help provide the biggest & most valuable miracle of all... re-election.
Maxine Waters has promised to bring back DAP in a standalone bill. No doubt it'll probably pass, but unsure if Bush would sign it or not. She mentioned this twice during her floor testimony prior to the vote.
Long live DAP! (Please don't tell Tanta)
dry: Plus I imagine that irs will be getting more and more aggressive as revenues decline.
Be careful - IRS still expects taxes on barter & exchange in king at 'market equivalents'...
Should be...
Be careful - IRS still expects taxes on barter & exchange in kind at 'market equivalents'...
Time for bed.
Uncle Billy Vs. Mt. Pelerin writes:
dry: Plus I imagine that irs will be getting more and more aggressive as revenues decline.
Uncle Billy Vs. Mt. Pelerin | Homepage | 07.27.08 - 1:11 am | #
Regardless of which candidate wins...
"Canadian watching with popcorn writes:
George if your for this raise your right hand..............
No George your other right hand............"
Try your other "you're."
Bush is dum.
The Nation
How Wall Street Wrecked Your Retirement
Error 500 | The Nation
WAWAWA,
Yes. The IRS provisions are in the final section, "Revenue Provisions" and are going to be the main source of funding for the bill.
Search for "require information for payment card to third party". Actually "payment card" or "third party" will be there.
Oh yeah, retirement. I wonder how much influence aarp had on this bill. For the boomers and older folks losing pension and home equity has got to really really piss them off.
Maxine Waters better watch her back with Tanta or she might get whacked.
Uncle Billy,
If so the AARP is screwing their members, but I guess that's nothing new.
"For the boomers and older folks losing pension and home equity has got to really really piss them off."
Not as pissed off as they are going to be a couple of years from now.
Hmmm... the banks that just went down supposedly were involved heavily (or at least one of them) in card processing for online gambling. Maybe there will be a ton of new tax revenue generated from this provision as they can better track the flow of cash offshore. ? If they were involved in card processing for gambling, they probably did porn as well. Pretty Ironic if squeeky clean Mutual of Omaha ends up with that stuff.
tj: I'll bet that if you look in the aarp monthly magazine you'll find puhlenty of nice safe looking companies helping the older folks with their money.
Reading the greedy posts at Yahoo Message Boards about getting rich on this bill by buying FRE and FNM low is disgusting. Fortunately, they're probably deluded, since they think drastic Gov't action needed to keep the GSE's alive bodes well for their securities. Disgusting people, really.
(sigh) this country needs a high colonic.
Vote Clemente
Thanks YLSP.
Someone asked how FNM and FMC are getting taxed. I believe aren't they having to pay higher basis points or something somewhere?
Regarding bartering, etc... isn't that why the DoJ shut down e-gold? So can't we expect other similar type of online resources to get shut-down?
Anyway, wouldn't Western Union or whoever else does CoD or Money Orders win? I don't think those count as a third party...
YLSP: The e-gold.com website is up. This says that they stopped, but will start back up in November with all sorts of safeguards against criminal usage.
e-gold Blog: A New Beginning
Furious Homeowner wrote I wish there was some way just to make the entire federal government go away.
archive.gov (a US tax supported site) has a good start:
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another...
I recommend this link to those looking to understand the bill and not Thomas LOC.
There are 2 pdfs in there on the housing bill and they aren't as long or as hard to browse as Thomas.
Danny: Yeah, but they could actually get physically away. The big bad oppressor is now global.
Ah, hell.
Anyone still posting is either drunk (my hand up) or a glutton for a prostate exam. "Honest, I like my prison tats". But for the grace of God go I.
Bad day in America. Sad day in America.
Who can truely fathom the chaos and and dislocations that will most surely result from this ignoble piece of legistlation? Yes, ignoble is the harshest term for me.
Sorry, must end on this note.
On Bloomies, Gordon Brown, labour PM says to labour.......F*ck off!
Who in the hell is running the asylum over there? Chances are the inmates will win.
Competive devaluations.... Anyone, anyone?
Bugger thy neighbor.
Short,
Re:appraisals-this is how it will play out
$625,000 house on a street wrecked by subprime loans? | camile, house, mortgage - Business - The Orange County Register
if they can do this right now, dont count the banks out of fudging appraisals..
Re: taxes, why pay them, just claim exempt, it's legal and put it in a cd until next april, depending on what happens, pay it or not..
Money to be made off this is to open a consumer mortgage credit counseling company with some friend who is considered a minority (whatever that is now days)20% of contracts will have to funnel thru there...
This 4 page document was probably the most enlightening since it follows the money in the housing bill.
PDF - ESTIMATED BUDGET EFFECTS OF THE TAX PROVISIONS CONTAINED IN H.R. 3221
http://www.jct.gov/x-64-08.pdf
If you have a mortgage, stop paying. You'll get free stuff.
""For the boomers and older folks losing pension and home equity has got to really really piss them off."
Not as pissed off as they are going to be a couple of years from now."
I know a guy who just put off his retirement a year. He's 67, and he hasn't even paid off his house yet, though he's put away several hundred K -- in the stock market and REITs. Yep, next year he may well be pretty pissed off.
I can't wait to hear the sob stories on cnn.com about Joe Sixpack not qualifying for the FHA loan. Even better will be stories about the dumbasses who get foreclosed on by the FHA after their refinancing.
Think IndyMac a few weeks ago x 1,000,000.
I guess the only thing I would like to know is what are our 'leaders' doing to prevent another bubble?
I don't seem to have too many answers on that.
If everybody thinks this one is bad, wait until our almighty, all knowing, lord and savior, Uncle Sam, passes the Failure Prevention Act of 2009. Followed by the No Banks Left Behind Act of 2010 and then the Road Out Of Serfdom Act of 2011. And finally, in 2012 Congress will repeal Reality.
Crazy!...Almost unbelievable all the monkey ass nonsense you have going on down there!.....
You know we don't have any tax breaks on our personal real estate. We have funded health care, funded Canada Pension Plan, run balanced budgets, have a low national debt.
And most Canadians live in a house and are managing the mortgage............
Canadian watching with popcorn | 07.26.08 - 9:36 pm |
As much as I would like to share your optimism, I recently read the the federal pension plan of Canda lost 1.4 billion in this fiasco - and that's only what they are disclosing...
I think we lack a quorum now, its time to turn out the lights, and have someone start my car.
We all need a clean start!
"finally, in 2012 Congress will repeal Reality."
why should they wait till 2012? why should government postpone for tomorrow something they can get away with today?
Reality? F that. Soma tablets. Now!
Rupert Nation = Ruin Nation; Part
The Nattering Naybob Chronicles
after the sorriest sack of shit to ever occupy the oval office... remember, from last week? The smell of shit is the smell of victory.
Totally apropro considering it will take decades to clean up the stinkin shit pile these neo con fascist republicans and
the mentally handicapped, i.e. those who voted for Shrub Jr. have left this country sitting in.
(My sincere apologies to those who are actually designated as mentally handicapped, no insult is intended.)
I found this ranting very refreshing and honest and agree with the matter on choices. I find myself wanting to vote out every incumbent, yet, the prospect of musical retards is appalling, so one wonders why one should even vote. I think I will vote for Abe Lincoln for every position and thus cast a vote for change and not empower the retards, but have my vote counted for honesty!
"As much as I would like to share your optimism, I recently read the the federal pension plan of Canda lost 1.4 billion in this fiasco - and that's only what they are disclosing...
lenka | 07.27.08 - 2:11 am | # "
I know that the company I work for, Nav Canada, lost 371 million worth of ABCP out of the pension fund when Coventry went tits up last year. It's still before the courts. Never going to be resolved.
DannyHSdad's blog Danny Homeschooling Dad has a post that link to the Larry Summers Financial Times doomsday letter. It reminded me of the comments I made earlier regarding Nuriel Roubini's doom-mongery and the fact that both Summers and Pimco's El-Erian are both very involved with Roubini's RGE-Monitor. Summers' affiliation with D.E. Shaw, a very closed lip group, is not noted on the Roubini site.
I Missed a few others working with Roubini.
RGE - Our Team
Nicholas Checa is a principal at Kissinger McLarty whose secretive client list includes some of the most powerful corporations in america and... Blackstone group. Uncle Wiki says that Kissinger McLary is physically located in the same building as Blackstone as well.
Most interesting at the moment though is the fellow at the veeeeery end of the list of rge board members: Carlos Abadi. Per the carlosabadi.org website:
"Mr. Abadi has played an active role in the emerging markets debt trading arena since the first Mexican syndicated loans started to change hands in the wake of Mexicos 1982 default. Since then, he has specialized every major restructured sovereign debt instruments issued since 1985."
One would think that we will be hearing much more about this dashing Argentine in coming months as we and others need some help with our own "restructuring of foreign debt instruments."
And then there's Marc Uzan, director of a think-tank called "Reinventing Bretton Woods Committee." He appears to be one of the main people responsible for the architecture of the new global financial system.
Reinventing Bretton Woods
So What? I dunno, but it seems to me, from my vantage point here under the rock, that the very people who profess to be most interested in a stable global financial system are the ones who are providing us with the biggest shocks. And there are a few poised to make a killing off of all the instability.
Uncle B,
What are you doing here?
Seattle Post-Intelligencer: David Horsey
Another fine cartoon from Seattle: Seattle Post-Intelligencer: David Horsey
The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencke
Hi Clown Hands. By here, do you mean on the pirate ship?
On the blog? Well, Gladys has gone to bed, and I don't want to get hypnotized by the boob tube, and there hasn't been any good night surfing in California since forever...
Mr. Clown Hands, that's just what Naomi Klein's been trying to tell us!
On the blog, I mean. You seem to be a regular these days..
Ron Paul for president. If third party votes don't add up to something like 30% this year we all need to jump our butts on the pirate ship...
You said you had to cook dinner one night, but you seem to be here a lot, unlike myself, so I'm just curious (somewhat) as to your background, i.e, are you involved with selling hair products, or do you work for The CIA or FDIC?
Ron Paul needs to beef up a little first and fake some charisma.
And you, YLSP, what are you doing here?
Let's turn this around...
What are YOU doing here? (are you Doc Holiday?)
Of course I'm DH, but does that make me a criminal?
Re: onsidering there are about 8,500 banks in the United States, 90 problem banks is not that large a number, said L. William Seidman, a former FDIC chairman. During the S&L crisis in the late 1980s and early 1990s, about 1,500 banks were on the problem list.
"Just because a bank is on the list doesn't mean it's going to fail," Seidman said. "If customers have deposits of under $100,000, they don't have to worry. They will get their money."
doc holiday is in the mental ward, so says word on the street...
Well now that you've reassured me, and I know that you're busy on Bretton Woods II, I can go to sleep in peace.
Hi Butter. G'night Butter. I love your nic. Reminds me of guns.
Doc has never felt better, your rumors are false
G'night Doc. Don't let the Austrians bite.
Nighty nite, may you and the ms dream of Naomi Klein!
Regarding FHA sharing future appreciation; I wonder what will be the treatment of situations where, e.g.:
(1) one spouse dies and for tax purposes the home takes on the current value for the surviving spouse, or
(2) the home is passed to an heir due to the homeowner's death.
(3) sham transfers between non-arm-length parties (sale well under market).
Nothingburger? Double-stack with cheese?
"All you need is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure." Mark Twain
US man charged for shooting mower
BBC NEWS | Americas | US man charged for shooting mower
A 56-year-old man from the Midwestern US state of Wisconsin has been arrested after shooting his lawn mower in his garden because it would not start....
Police officers said Mr Walendowski had told them: "It's my lawn mower and my yard, so I can shoot it if I want."
If you can't shoot your own lawnmower in your own yard, then what freedoms do we have left? This bailout bill is bad enough but losing our basic rights - it must be the end-times ...I'm ready to be raptured...
I also see a menacing triadic convergence between civil liberties, insanity and government. This week we all are under the new threat to be watched by the greasy hair'd blogger thugs of FDIC who are in cahoots with failing banks that are transferring their ownership structures to less regulated insurance holding corporations that are skilled in the art of spinning off subsidiaries and entities that front-run regulations, authority and enforcement actions -- which of course -- brings us full-circle back to this whore-like legislation, which is a bunch of dog shit duck-taped into the form of a streamlined bailout package that no one has any clue as to what it's really about.
This convergence, is fueled by the reality that no one really gives a shit, because no one has the ability to focus on more than a few disjointed thoughts and when everyone, everywhere seem to be either retarded, aliens or in some way a combination of those realities and then the additive quality of attention deficit disorder -- well there yah fucking go, no one cares, no one gets it and if yah toss out a 700 page pile of shit, you can bet a few trillion bucks that no will fight it, because everyone is too busy doing other shit!
That's all, and if yah don't like my wall of words, then you and your genetic offspring can ... well, WTF, I love you baby, please come home!
I am just boggled at the crud shoved onto this bill. Tax-exempt status for FHLB-guaranteed bonds? It's just amazing what got loaded onto this. Frank's original discount mortgage purpose is trivial compared to a lot of the other stuff like the F&F bailout, the 7500 tax credit, the massive tax carryover givaway, etc.
Tax-exempt status for FHLB-guaranteed bonds?
See Paulson trying to pull shit with GSEs and covered bonds, i.e, GSEs actually were like covered bonds but they were entities, whereas, covered bond status is more like a mechanism in the form of a what....you got it, a fucking derivative package as toxic as the black plague!
Forget about subprime flu, wait around and watch Paulson Black Plague Covered Bonds!
Worth a read:
overed Bonds - A New Solution or an Old Danger?
In response to the liquidity crisis, particularly with regard to home mortgages, the FDIC last week announced new guidance for covered bonds. So what are covered bonds?
Here's how the FDIC describes covered bonds:
"Covered bonds are general, non-deposit obligation bonds of the issuing bank secured by a pledge of loans that remain on the bank's balance sheet. Covered bonds originated in Europe, where they are subject to extensive statutory and supervisory regulation designed to protect the interests of covered bond investors from the risks of insolvency of the issuing bank. By contrast, covered bonds are a relatively new innovation in the U.S. with only two issuers to date: Bank of America, N.A. and Washington Mutual. These initial U.S. covered bonds were issued in September 2006."
Unlike the legal and regulatory framework in Europe, which is extensive, U.S. regulators find that our banks do not need express statutory or regulatory authorization to issue covered bonds.
So why don't U.S. banks just go ahead? Well, in light of the current crisis involving residential mortgages, investors are understandably reluctant to go anywhere near something that could represent more of the same risk as the subprime mortgage derivative investments.
Here's where the U.S. regulators step in. The FDIC and the Federal Reserve are taking steps to reassure investors that the covered bond product is not so risky. The FDIC's July 15, 2008, Covered Bond Policy Statement tells investors how the FDIC will treat covered bonds in the event the bank that issued the covered bonds fails:
FDIC says, "As conservator or receiver for an IDI, the FDIC has three options in responding to a properly structured covered bond transaction of the IDI: 1) continue to perform on the covered bond transaction under its terms; 2) pay-off the covered bonds in cash up to the value of the pledged collateral; or 3) allow liquidation of the pledged collateral to pay-off the covered bonds."
Banking Law Prof Blog: Covered Bonds - A New Solution or an Old Danger?
ot that anyone gives a rip, but when I opened the pdf and saw 694 pages-whew!
it was the first really healthy laugh I have had in weeks.
Still chuckling. Morons.
Boo!!
FEDERAL DEPOSIT INSURANCE CORPORATION
Covered Bond Policy Statement
Tanta & CR, please jump on this early!!!!!!
FDIC: Press Releases - PR-60-2008 7/15/2008
Currently, there are no statutory or regulatory prohibitions on the issuance of covered bonds by U.S. banks. Therefore, to reduce market uncertainty and clarify the application of the FDIC's statutory authorities for U.S. covered bond transactions, the FDIC issued an Interim Policy Statement to provide guidance on the availability of expedited access to collateral pledged for certain covered bonds by IDIs in a conservatorship or a receivership.
Covered bonds are general, non-deposit obligation bonds of the issuing bank secured by a pledge of loans that remain on the bank's balance sheet. Covered bonds originated in Europe, where they are subject to extensive statutory and supervisory regulation designed to protect the interests of covered bond investors from the risks of insolvency of the issuing bank. By contrast, covered bonds are a relatively new innovation in the U.S. with only two issuers to date: Bank of America, N.A. and Washington Mutual. These initial U.S. covered bonds were issued in September 2006.
That's all yah gotta fucking know, WaMu already issued covered bonds in 2006 ....got the point, hello?????
Now wait just a second here, the covered bond bullshit from FDIC/Paulson/Bernanke goes against the grain of the new FASB shit on QSPEs, as a covered bond essentially will become an entity like a QSPE, so WTF is going on in America? This mafia/KGB Coup is trying to destroy every fragment related to reality and spin accounting fraud into accounting chaos.........this is amazing, I guess they think in some way they need to save America from all the shit they started, but as my buddy Einstein said, over and over and fucking over, "you can't solve a problem on the same level in which it was created" ... or something like that, i.e, the reatards that gave us this corrupt mess that is fueled by collusion and fraud and false and misleading information -- are NOT the people that will save us from this BLACK HOLE!
AMEN!!
Walkaways on 2nd homes, vacation homes, investment properties, flips, etc. will not be affected by 'bailout bill'. Loans where incomes were not required on primaries will be worked out only with income docs. Walkaways on primaries due to job losses, medical bills, divorce, bankruptcies, upside down due to HELOCS or valuation collapse will still continue. So how many primary homeowners will really qualify and be motivated to do a workout?
Here are some T- shirt slogans for 2008:
"I voted Capitalism and all i got was lousy bailouts"
" 3rd. World corruption to 1st. World Prices: US CONgress!!"
Front:
"Republicans: No Bid contract for America"
Back:
" Democrats: The Art of silent , clueless resistance"
" got Banana need Republic ----Go USA"
"So how many primary homeowners will really qualify and be motivated to do a workout?"
Very few. I know everyone likes to get all up in arms over shit like this but this will crash and burn just as hard as all the other plans devised during this financial downturn. There's just too many things working against each other to make this plan a success. These homes were purchased at anywhere from 6-10x gross income and even a 50% haircut (never going to happen) would be tough for many of these borrowers to make. They bought these homes because they thought it was their ticket to the good life and there's no way in hell they're going to live the simple life for 5+ years just so they can share half the appreciation (if there is any) with the government. A few home repairs could wipe out any gains they do get. Someone posted that 35% of the worked out loans are expected to default anyways, but I believe the number will be much higher once people actually see it's in their best interest not to get a workout.
Be careful - IRS still expects taxes on barter & exchange in kind at 'market equivalents'...
Are all those nasty bloggers, trading investment advice all day long, paying taxes on the value of that advice?
Many pages of good intentions paving another road to HE double hockey sticks.
Doc Kona, now the soothing words of the SEC's Cox (which oozed from his lips just last week) about how there's no rush to implement the new FASB rules regarding QSPE's make a lot more sense, don't they?
Karma is the 5th force in the universe.
In a generation or two, Native Americans will have regained control of the majority of North America.
And Karl and I will have replaced Adam Smith and the Founding Fathers as the guiding philosophy to a more perfect union.
Power to the people, Comrades!
Opinions like asshole everyone have one.
"In a generation or two, Native Americans will have regained control of the majority of North America."
Thomas Cole's "The Course of Empire"
Also in the Housing Bill, All Credit Card transaction will be reported to the IRS. So Big Brother in now in your wallet what next DNA swipes for new driver licences
SEE Sen. Ron Paul on yo tube
YouTube - Ron Paul on the Housing Bill
To the fools mewling about a majority of Republicans standing up against this bad legislation: they were not needed.
The Republicans voting against this (latest) travesty against The People are merely providing theater. It fits the narrative of Republicans are for capitalism and Democrats are for socialism.
If the Republican's votes were needed, they would have voted for it. This has been going on for a long time: both Parties are beholden to corporate America.
Unfortunately propaganda is not as easy to spit up as koolaid.
Please wake up America.
"So how many primary homeowners will really qualify and be motivated to do a workout?"
the guest | 07.27.08 - 5:27 am |
Bingo! We have a winner. Please refer to page 403 of the bill. That will disqualify 90% or more of would-be applicants.
"If you can't shoot your own lawnmower in your own yard, then what freedoms do we have left?"
There is more then one way to kill a lawn mower, just like an economy.
Am I reading it wrong, or did they extend the 3 years loss carryback for builders to 4 years and give it to everybody? That's going to create a massive deficit increase
You are reading it wrong. There is NO tax loss carryback provision.
Lots of disinformation floating around, maybe CR can do a post summarizing the bill.
Republicans voted against this because they knew it already had the votes to pass. Over the years, it's been shown that they vote in unison when "necessary."
It is amazing how much money the feds have to spend on wars and bailouts--and not on medicare and social security. Priorities from our "values" oriented pols seem askew.
Honestly I don't think the banks will get to much out of this. Owners seeking a rework are not going to pay more than they have to!!! If I can't have it for what the house down the street went for last month forget it.
I also don't see the banks lining up to take 60% haircuts in California on option ARMS. Better to let them run out hoping the market will be better then, all the while booking the minimum payments as full amortization. Most of what will be reworked is for idiots that signed up for low teasers and had no hope of paying the higher rate at reset. However with all the restrictions about sharing future appreciation most people may opt to go ahead and rent for less.
Someone on this blog said that senators had ~ 16 hours to read the bill. Considering that most of those guys have to pee 4 times every hour, it was more like ~ 11 hours.
what's with the barrage of oddly named people having odd discussions with each other? are they all bots or something?
I read these threads and then BAM! I feel like I took crazy pills and ended up in the tower of Babel. Lots of words that seem to say nothing, with no particular point. I can't see the segue's or anything.
isn't there a special blog for that? is it just me?