"Two buildings on extra-large lot -- income potential! Live in one, convert the other for rental. Extra large lot has room for additional granny unit, pool, ?????? The sky's the limit!"
Yesterday, I finished reading "The Middle Class Millionaire" that heralds Ladera Ranch as an enclave of the middle-class millionaires who take risk, prosper, network and move up. The authors claim that Ladera Ranch homes have kept the values in the down market because it reflect the middle-class millionaire culture.
Those who don't live in California should be aware that (a) Californians make more and (b) they pay a larger proportion of the income for housing, which is perfectly logical given the climate, recreational and job opportunities, etc. So steep prices by standards elsewhere are quite reasonable. That said, the peak prices were beyond insane, even after accounting for the location.
I'd recommend moving to a "nice mid-Western town" if you can. Life is better and RE is sure a lot more reasonable. No problems with commute either. (I'd avoid Iowa river towns, however.)
Central City in Nebraska is a very nice little town on the Platte river that is virtually guaranteed not to flood. You can watch the sandhill cranes fly in every year, go duck hunting in the fall, pheasant hunting too, and fishing all summer. Winter brings snow, but it is perfectly manageable in a small town like that. What to do? Live off your stock investments, of course. Short hop to the supermarket and anything else you might need.
I moved many, many people to Ladera Ranch, CA from cities within Orange County, CA in 05=07...this is a prime area for people who wanted to buy a house where the builder installed the graniteel....
Ladera is a "noveau rich" Coto de Caza...
and, in 06 and 07 I moved a few folks, who personally moved from a big Ladera Ranch home to a much bigger and grander Ladera Ranch home...these are the people, who will surely get stung when their Alt-A loans come due next year and some very nice homes will be flooding the market.....
it's going to be interesting and sad to watch.....
I think life it what you make it. If you are into nothing but eating and drinking, then that's your life. You don't surf the net? Watch nature programs on TV? Read? Socialize with nice neighbors? Like picnics? In the modern world, small towns are hardly isolated places anymore you know. The only thing missing there is big city problems.
You have to be on the coast to have "fresh seafood" in the US and not everyone can live on a coast. Frozen seafood is quite good enough for even fastidious eaters. If you want Thai, then learn to cook it yourself. Most small midwestern towns have a decent Chinese restaurant. If you want arty movies, buy them from Amazon and watch them in the comfort of your home.
You really need "minorities" around you? If so, move to London or New York or LA and buy your abode in a minority neighborhood. You're welcome to do that.
Granted there are exceptions (dryfly will probably be all over me for these comments) but for the most part I think life in the midwest is pretty sad.
Gamma | 06.16.08 - 3:11 pm | #
Yup all over you - completely FOS.
People are people everywhere - not much changes. I've lived in the east, in the south & a couple different places in the center... not much about human nature changes including people's provincial attitudes about others they don't know - hmmm?
Oh and ya everywhere in the Midwest is really ugly too - like this picture taken near my neck of the woods. I've actually hiked up there about 100 times. The view the other way is even better but hard to photograph at sunset - you stare straight into the sun at that time of year.
Also - you can buy nice houses up and down that river for $100K-200K - VERY nice house. No graffiti, no crack addicts... just homes, neighbors, schools, jobs. Oh and hobbies too.
Open your mind and your ass will follow... try it sometime gamma.
"You have to be on the coast to have "fresh seafood" in the US and not everyone can live on a coast. Frozen seafood is quite good enough for even fastidious eaters. If you want Thai, then learn to cook it yourself. Most small midwestern towns have a decent Chinese restaurant. If you want arty movies, buy them from Amazon and watch them in the comfort of your home."
My contention is with the phrase "anything you might need" in your original post. Some of us need brighter lights than the tuna casserole and lutefisk smorgasbord down at St. Olaf's Lutheran. (I say that as a life-long son of Luther!) Not to mention going outside in February in a windbreaker and t-shirt.
The starting bid is $299,000. That doesn't mean it was sold for that price; only that is will not go for less than that figure. It looks like in the end it would go for 600-700K to me.
If you can't do without the Met operas and the New York stage, the money you save by living in Central City will be perfectly adequate to take a ten day trip to the Big Apple, stay at a first class hotel and gorge on opera and theater. And then you can go back to civilized living afterward.
Dryfly, I don't know what this even means, but it made be laugh at work, so I thank you.
If you can't do without the Met operas and the New York stage, the money you save by living in Central City will be perfectly adequate to take a ten day trip to the Big Apple, stay at a first class hotel and gorge on opera and theater. And then you can go back to civilized living afterward.
Yes, most definitely. New York, uncivilized. Farm town in the middle of nowhere, pinnacle of civilization.
Come on. When's the last time you were in New York? We don't bite. (Anymore.)
If you are a culture-vulture there are midwestern university towns that are full of "cultivated" people and pursuits: Lincoln, NE, Lawrence, KS, Columbia, MO, Ames, IA, Madison WI, etc., etc., etc.
Anonymous writes:
Got any minorities there in Central City, Nebraska?
Anonymous | 06.16.08 - 3:18 pm | #
We sure do in my Mississippi River river town - predominantly white but still a mix... black, white, Hispanic, Asian. And not terribly segregated either - have BOTH a Mexican immigrant family & a mixed white/black couple on my block of eight houses. Oh and natives too - Dakota community not far away either (15 miles maybe)?
Oh and ya everywhere in the Midwest is really ugly too - like this picture taken near my neck of the woods. I've actually hiked up there about 100 times. The view the other way is even better but hard to photograph at sunset - you stare straight into the sun at that time of year.
Also - you can buy nice houses up and down that river for $100K-200K - VERY nice house. No graffiti, no crack addicts... just homes, neighbors, schools, jobs. Oh and hobbies too.
Open your mind and your ass will follow... try it sometime gamma.
Yeah, I never got the sense that it was "sad" when I was in Northern Ohio. Industry was indisputably in decline and I guess some of the school districts that were running out of money were "sad", but over all I had a good experience up there. I liked the people and the area.
In NYC last year returning from Portugal. Hated the prices, the oppressively tall buildings, the rude people, mediocre food in supposedly fine restaurants, etc., etc. If I had to be near a big city I'd sure prefer Chicago to NY.
Come on. When's the last time you were in New York? We don't bite. (Anymore.)
‽‽‽ | 06.16.08 - 3:33 pm | #
In the city? About four years ago... Upstate? Last year. My daughter went to RPI, my niece (also Midwestern) works at Battery Park - or did until she had a baby. We would meet & do museums, theatre & such.
My wife is going to Javitz next week on biz - asked if I wanted to go with & I declined, maybe next time. My daughter will meet her there (she is visiting old school chums) - they'll all go shop. Besides the trout action here is picking up. If she asked me off-season then I might have gone.
Well, when I look at NYC I see increased economic opportunity, more attractive people, hundreds more art, music, and cultural opportunities than any other city in the country, and a more forgiving social support structure.
I'd love to retire to a more rural area, but there's a reason all the smart kids leave the sticks after college.
anony-1797 writes:
Noticing the URL of Dryfly's image link. "When in doubt, apply for Stout." That still brings a smile to my face (my parents are both Stout alumni).
anony-1797 | 06.16.08 - 3:32 pm | #
My youngest son actually wants to go there - wow, says something about our inadequate parenting skills.
Send me a picture from atop that knoll in February...
I live in Chicago and my wife is from Minneapolis (pretty nice town) so I hardly think I'm ignorant to what the midwest has to offer. I never said there were NO hobbies (I waterski and hunt), but people in the midwest act like people in CA are crazy (obviously they were the past few years), but people in CA pay a premium to live there for good reason. The weather and access to water and mountains make it a much nicer place to live. I've found that alot of people in the midwest haven't spent too much time there and run wild with preconceptions.
My point wasn't to troll it was to refute the midwest attitude of "just move out here".
Again... let's see that picture in February when it's 10 below zero and under 4 feet fo snow.
Well if you have to have a California climate, move to Costa Rica or Chile or other places where it is cheaper. Need to learn Spanish of course, but then you're very much into culture, are you not? Speaking a foreign language would be just the thing for you. LOL.
I live in Orange County,
You could not buy anything in Santa Ana for under 500k in 2006. Small,
1000 sq ft homes that are 50 years old have now dropped at least 50%.
And they are still too much.
This home with the extra decorating has dropped somewhat more. Reminds me of the listing that i saw which said "Rumored to have plumbing".
Ladera Ranch house should sell for over 600k at the moment. I looked at a lot of homes in Ladera Ranch - Taxes too high. 1.8%. I believe about 1% of tax is tied to price of house - the other .8% is fixed bonds. So as price of house goes down should see tax rate over 2%.
OT -- no one tell Seb and O-Joe -- no need to spoil their lunch -- but the two private sector monthly GDP forecasts that the NBER Business Cycle Dating Committee peruses are down again for April and May:
Love that picture Dryfly. That's in the same neighborhood where my fiancee's family hails from. Was just looking at some RE listings on the water in NW Wisconsin. It would be a nice place to work from for a few months a year.
This is OT but interesting. I've been talking for some time about insurance company failures. They include monolines, PBGC and some niches nobody has heard of. Here's an example from today's NY Times.
"State officials say they may have to create a $200 million emergency fund to finance workers compensation benefits for thousands of injured New Yorkers because 12 trusts that provided insurance to their employers have failed financially.
"The self-insured trusts provide workers compensation insurance to groups of small- to medium-size employers in the same industry, and the failure of so many of them in recent months has sparked fears of a cutoff in benefits to thousands of injured workers. It has also generated criticism that the State Workers Compensation Board was lax in regulating the trusts. There are 50 group trusts remaining in the state that provide insurance to more than 20,000 businesses with a total of about 500,000 employees."
Bureucrats are laying this huge loss on administrative mismanagement. But it has to be more such as too many claims, too little funding, or bad investments.
The result will be higher costs for many types of biz operating in NY state and probably general tax hit, too. The crunch on corporate earnings continues. And all this is happening before Obama.
chipmUnks, please. let's not insult our furry friends
I was trying to inject some religious diversity into the discussion.
I lived in LA for almost 30 years and I have no desire to go back. Idaho and Arizona were okay in some ways like cost, crime, etc, but ultimately I discovered that they were a bit ingrown and provincial. In LA religion is a hobby but in Idaho it's grounds for hiring / firing. No, thanks.
I've lived in LA (South Bay) and Kansas City. Where would I rather live? In South Bay.
But I say to everyone, wake up and see the beauty in your own community and scratch beneath the surface. I think I have in Kansas City, and it's a beautiful city.
I live in La Jolla, and have lived in California for 13 of my 28 adult years. I long for the relative sanity of Minneapolis, Chicago, or Austin, where I also lived as an adult.
I honestly believe that this place, California, is going to devolve to a Mad Max atmosphere.
Back on topic - did you guys see the video? At the 2:34 mark, Tom Sebring (Wells Fargo "Mortgage Consultant") claims the inventory has fallen "from 12 to 18 months worth of inventory at the beginning of the year" to its current level which is "down to about 6 months worth".
As a former resident of San jose, ca and Madison wi and current resident of mordor-on-Potomac (Washington dc, a world of its own), I feel qualified to say you both make good points.
Frankly I LOVED Madison and would move back in a heartbeat. Yet the only thing a comp sci PhD can do is teach at the university (and as a grad, I would never be hired to the faculty).
Bob dobb, Madison has more restaurants per capita than anywhere in the US. I honestly think in terms of price / quality, Madison restaurants cannot be beat.
The employment opportunities for me are concentrated in major metros. I tell people at the companies where I work that if someone opened a research lab in a small Midwest university town, they could save a bundle and they would have little recruitment issues.
Hear about the idjits living here? The councilperson in Lodi (?) getting a $100 ticket cuz she watered the lawn of the foreclosed house next door. Nero could have taken lessons on fiddling from the politicians in CA.
Must be muuch less reason to live here with gas at $4.55 gal this morning. Went to grad party for best friend's kid in Truckee yesterday. School's out, where are the people?
BTW, lived there for two years and I'd take it over the valleys in the center each and every day. 'Course, that meant I missed the "culture". You know, looking at a painting of a sunset while standing inside a museum. Listening to beautiful music while sitting inside away from those pesky birds.
Ladera Ranch is a very nice master-planned community. Good overall plan, nice mix of sizes of homes, lots of parks/pools/etc. Construction quality is reasonable for the price originally paid. Decent weather. However. As mentioned above, the tax rate is really high, and the monthly fees start at roughly $400. And, because pretty much all of it was built after 2004, my guess is that a majority of owners in there (excepting those with big down payments) are underwater. That, to me, is sad.
My point wasn't to troll it was to refute the midwest attitude of "just move out here".
That wasn't what you said or what a reasonable person would have assumed you meant from what you said. Just re-read your comment from above...
Granted there are exceptions (dryfly will probably be all over me for these comments) but for the most part I think life in the midwest is pretty sad.
Gamma | 06.16.08 - 3:11 pm | #
As for this...
Send me a picture from atop that knoll in February...
Its fabulous then - been there MANY times in the depths of winter. Probably the most beautiful time of year IF there is snow. And you don't even need to hike to get vistas like that. In winter, on that stretch of road with parking lot overlooks, you can see a hundred bald eagles in a couple hours - folks come from all over the country to see them... specifically in February & March before they migrate up into N Minn & Canada.
The birders & antique chasers then all eat at local five star restaurants (specifically catering to outsiders) & stay at B&Bs (to the tune of a couple hundred a night)... and then politely leave so we can all get back to our lives.
I do most of my business in Chicago - it is rare to find a senior exec or owner of the companies I call on who hasn't vacationed in my area at one time or another. They all rave about it. Why do they come? Because it is interesting.
There are places like this all over America including in Cali - the pixs CR linked to DO NOT reflect that California. The folks who live there do not experience that 'better California' life. There are folks in the Midwest with similar misfortune - live in shit holes - but like California, not all - not even 'most' live that way. Living in the Midwest doesn't make your life 'sad' just like living in Cali doesn't automatically make it 'gay' (forgive the double entendre).
People really aren't that different place to place.
"Bob dobb, Madison has more restaurants per capita than anywhere in the US. I honestly think in terms of price / quality, Madison restaurants cannot be beat."
College towns don't count . I live in a college town; even in California, it's rare to find a town under 60K with two symphonies, a national Shakespeare festival, two art house theaters, two giant locally-owned bookstores, several major festivals a years, and a bloody seaside amusement park with several roller coasters.
Madison has long been touted by coasters as an oasis of culture in the midwest -- but you have to stay in Madison, right? I can go 100 miles north and 50 miles south and find the kind of culture I like.
50 miles east, that's another matter: out there in the San Joaquin Valley you can find plenty of places much like Chris' beloved Central City. Spent much time there; no thanks.
a homeless person doing a BM on the sidewalk, 6:30 p.m. during the week.
One week ago? I think he probably read Tanta's post on the OCC's Mortgage Metrics report. When I read how the OCC decided to define Alt-A, I shit my pants as well.
If someone wants to live in the US and a foreign country AND learn Spanish, they can come to Miami, and probably buy a waterfront tower condo really really cheap in about 6 months. Or, who knows? Right now.
Tho I must say, I can read spanish, but can't understand the Cubans. Other Spanish speakers can't understand them either.
You guys need to git down here to Dallas. I live on a 24,000 surface acre lake within walking distance to super dining. It's only 20 miles to downtown Dallas. Drive 20 miles east for huntin and fishin and 20 miles west for culture. And you can have it all for less than $130/sq' new.
I like both you guys so you can stay where you are.
It's not a good idea to try and convince people on the coasts to move to "small midwestern towns"; if they start thinking its a good idea, they won't be small towns anymore! Let the Californians stay in California!
Madison has long been touted by coasters as an oasis of culture in the midwest -- but you have to stay in Madison, right? I can go 100 miles north and 50 miles south and find the kind of culture I like.
No its similar, really Bob.
I've been to Central Coast - my daughter looked pretty hard at Cal Poly so we went up and down from just North of LA where Dawg lives through SLO-Pismo up to Monterrey & SC and finally to just shy of SJ. We wanted her to get a feel for the whole region if she was going to go to school out there - she wasn't going to be able to come home on weekends.
She liked it - chose not to go there but liked it a lot, we all did.
It isn't that different except for the weather/terrain.
If you compare Madison - there are islands of enlightenment all over the region... up along the shore of Lk Superior (Bayfield) or into Door County (Lk Michigan) down along Lake Michigan between Milwaukee & Chicago... the small rural towns in S Wisc where Chicago people have 'escapes'... and the bluff country to the west over by the Mississippi River near me.
And 'yes' they are islands in a sea of corn & cows & factory towns but 'we locals' know them all. I certainly wouldn't expect you - out there - to know them, but they are here.
City mice vs. country mice! lol The issue for most isn't the atmosphere. It's jobs. I love the Cape, and I love western MA too. But I couldn't do what I love there...no jobs in what I do, or if there are the pay stinks. And no, the differential in pay isn't matched by decreased living costs. Food, fuel, and everything else is what it is. Housing may be less, but not that much less to off-set a 40 to 50% pay reduction. I want to have enough to retire on one day.
So I think it's an overly facile thing to say "move here". First of all, taste is taste, and second (and perhaps most important) money is money.
"Sad is when someone is responsible and lose their home. This doesn't come close."
Sorry, many of the folks I move do indeed have sad stories....and, many are going to be hurt financially through no fault of their own...
those who need to move to take care of a sick parent....their company says take this move or become unemployed...the person, who lived in a nice middle class home, with a neatly manicured lawn, who's house value was destroyed by a dilapidated foreclosure at the end of the block.....silently listening to the people moving out of state, who state they are renting out their home and will sell when prices go up in a year or two.... the people living in a one family/home neighborhood, who suddenly find them in a muti-family-living-in-one-home environment....
the people who lost their company/job/inccome (andnow their home)due to the economy-be-a-changing.....
Sorry, Anonymous, although I see many folks for whom I have little sympathy, there's a large group of poeple who got hurt through no fault of their own ...... and that is sad..
"And 'yes' they are islands in a sea of corn & cows & factory towns but 'we locals' know them all. I certainly wouldn't expect you - out there - to know them, but they are here."
I've just never cared much for island living, you know what I mean.
‽‽‽ | 06.16.08 - 3:43 pm | #
I'd love to retire to a more rural area, but there's a reason all the smart kids leave the sticks after college.
The retiring part happens on distance/culture on a scale larger than initially apparent.
Youll be surprised at the variety you'd get even in in the boondocks.
Out in South Sri lanka, even with a civil war going on I have Austrian and German Neighbours.
In the southern capital Galle, next to my cousin two texas ladies one in her 70's and her daughter late 40's (each with thier own house).
So I think it's an overly facile thing to say "move here". First of all, taste is taste, and second (and perhaps most important) money is money.
ipodius | 06.16.08 - 4:35 pm | #
I actually agree with that ipod.
When the wife & I were looking for a place to settle down - I lobbied for living in the city. She vetoed. Irony is I spent most of my growing up in rural settings she in the city - we both wanted 'greener pastures'. She won.
The people living in some of those hell holes in CR's link (did ya see 'em?)... would have been better off living about anywhere else don't you think? No green pastures anywhere in that collection.
I certainly can find places that grim in the Midwest but you at least get that nastiness for a whole lot less money. Crap comes cheaper here.
Here is a LA times blog story on a Ladera Ranch house REO auction.
2005, sold for $1.2 million
2007, foreclosed
2008 march, REO auction
Listed for $915
the scheduled opening bid $429,000
the winning bid $705,000 + auction fees
The lender wanted $800,000 at min, so rejected the winning bid.
I've just never cared much for island living, you know what I mean.
Bob Dobbs | Homepage | 06.16.08 - 4:42 pm | #
To each his own - but having spent time on the central coast - it isn't that different from 'Wisconsin' on a 'people' level. That thing they call the central coast turned out to be surprisingly long and spread out - kinda like 'islands' on a big long archipelago.
Oh I agree dryfly! I think it has a lot to do with what you grow up with too. I grew up here in Boston, but realize it isn't everyone's cup of tea. In my last job I split my time between LA and Boston. Talk about bi-polar disorder
And the mid-west isn't bad at all. I'm not much of an extreme rural guy...I like the city. But there are plenty of places that are very nice and livable for shorter money. I think it depends on industry and jobs more than anything else. But I plan on retiring to a more small town place on the cape. And i won't look back when I do, as long as I can still drive to the city once in a while for the bigger life there.
Talking about bubbles, looks like one has to burst in Sri lanka from the prices on the website.
USD for 600K for a house in the middle of nowhere.
sbarrkum | Homepage | 06.16.08 - 4:52 pm | #
OT: Trying to keep track of Obama's retirement initiatives is driving me nuts; there are just too many programs, different earnings cap, donut holes, etc.
If you're going to require employers to create auto-enrolling 401(k)s, then it would seem that SS would be redundant. If one plan defines the "rich" at 250K, then they all should.
I wonder if he even knows all the programs that he's espousing, or if he's just pandering to get the senior votes.
Scrolling through the pictures, I'm completely blown away by the notion that this is what Fed/Treasury/Congress is going through all these machinations to prop up.
"To each his own - but having spent time on the central coast - it isn't that different from 'Wisconsin' on a 'people' level. That thing they call the central coast turned out to be surprisingly long and spread out - kinda like 'islands' on a big long archipelago."
Geographically, yes; but all the islands are on more or less the same wavelength. And being at the top of the chain, we connect more directly to San Jose (30 miles away) and San Francisco (a fast 75 up the coast highway).
Ha. You want boring, lack of culture and horrible weather? Try San Fernando Valley or Simi Valley. Most people in the Los Angeles area can't afford to live anywhere near the beach. So they move inland where it's an ocean of concrete for miles on end and 110º in the summer.
Back in Colorado I have a view of the Rockies from my bedroom window, sun over 300 days a year, Denver if I feel the need to see some art or theatre. The people here are on the whole better educated and more interesting. The seafood is flown in just like it was in LA (what, you thought they caught it in Santa Monica?)
And our house payments are $1400/mo., including taxes and insurance.
I agree with Dryfly - life is interesting almost anywhere. The internet has made information, opinions, ideas accessible from anywhere.
I love the outdoors, so would have no trouble living in the sticks (rather than suburbia). The opportunities for hiking, canoeing, kayaking, gardening, stargazing, painting, cooking, learning more about the natural world - that's what attracts me. My last trip into NYC was nasty. Noise, people, more noise, more people, lousy overpriced food, stuffed subways. Yet, some people like it.
California, though the weather is boring, hot and arid. The place is a semi-desert and is meant to be that way. The water is almost non-existent. The carrying capacity has been exceeded. I remember reading TWO YEARS BEFORE THE MAST, and thinking, well, that's what California really is, buried under all those houses.
I drove through Ladera Ranch in 05 with one of my sales reps (we supplied a bunch of engineered fluid handling equipment for Santa Margarita Water District).
We were commenting on the prices of the houses in that development. We looked at one 4BR up on a hill...and my rep commented on how that $1.7M house was still a good investment. I told him it was a bloodbath in the making. It might go up a little more...to $2M...but ultimately it would get sold for less than $600K.
He looked at me like I was nuts...and then told me I was a fool for not buying a house.
What an bonehead. Even now he keeps insisting that it is a good time to buy a house. You would think he would learn....
"Here is a LA times blog story on a Ladera Ranch house REO auction.
2005, sold for $1.2 million
2007, foreclosed
2008 march, REO auction
Listed for $915
the scheduled opening bid $429,000
the winning bid $705,000 + auction fees
The lender wanted $800,000 at min, so rejected the winning bid."
Next time...the winning bid will be $650K. It will get rejected...then the next time it will be $575K...and the lender will throw in the towell. The buyer will still lose money over the next 5 years.
I love when the life long urbanites whose version of reality is just as incomplete as those who have lived in the sticks all their lives...turn their noses up.
BrantW, yeah I know, we have a realtor in our family who says its bad press driving prices down. She has never been through even one housing downturn, muchless have to fathom a housing depression.
Living in the SF Bay Area.....people talk about avoiding the cold winters in other parts of the country -- I'm willing to pay a decent premium for housing just to avoid humidity in the summer.
Getting back to the original blog post--was anyone else struck by the fact that in several of these cases, the borrowers were relatively low-income laborers (one supposedly cut grass for a living) who (according to neighbors) bought in a lot of lodgers to help cover the costs? In a couple of cases, the neighbors told the photographer that there were 15 or more people living in the place.
The carrying capacity has been exceeded. I remember reading TWO YEARS BEFORE THE MAST, and thinking, well, that's what California really is, buried under all those houses.
amen, it was exceeded back in 1970. Before then, life was pretty good just about anywhere in CA.
I hitched around the country in the early seventies. Loved California nature. Surfed, climbed some mountains (Shasta is a holy place) and stuck around for a couple of years.
But even then, the economics didn't work for me. I paid twice as much for one third the space I'd had in Houston, entry level jobs were scarce to nonexistent and didn't pay enough for such frivolities as food. Besides, the surf was nice and the Pacific gorgeous, but the water was just too damned cold.
California's economics just don't make sense - except for the wealthy. Public sector employees (and anyone making the equivalent salary or less) can't afford to live where they work - and now they can't afford the commute.
A permanent underclass has been created - and while this problem was temporarily masked by essentially paying anyone who could fog a mirror to occupy way more house than they could actually...uh...pay for... while they served coffee and burgers and mowed lawns and built more unaffordable homes, the merry-go-round has stopped.
Your problems have just begun - they will either spawn some really enlightened and progressive solutions - because they have there in the past - or your cities will again burn. Your present leadership isn't up to the task - and I think things will have to get a lot worse before your citizenry will accept anything but bandaids.
Good luck from Texas.
dryfly, - sounds beautiful - but I can't handle the cold.
Texas has it's drawbacks, but there are jobs here - and housing is a LOT more affordable - along with just about everything else.
I live in Ladera Ranch, and a regret in my life was moving to this faux town. Lots of fake people, fake money and plastic faces. Needless to say, I don't plan on retiring here.
Ladera Ranch was built during the bubble - from 1999 - 2008, so I'd say a good % of the home"owners" are underwater. It was not uncommon to pay $350.00 on up a square foot. It is the option ARM/HELOC your home to the max capital of the world.
Anyways, I live near the home pictured. A realistic price I see for that house is around $500,000. Yes, that sounds crazy if you're in the midwest, but California real estate just costs more.
Fortunately, I didn't get caught up in the "irrational exuberance". I bought my house in 2000 with a sizeable down payment at 2 times my annual income. I thought all these people were nuts for paying what they did - turns out I was right.
I tell people at the companies where I work that if someone opened a research lab in a small Midwest university town, they could save a bundle and they would have little recruitment issues.
badger boy | 06.16.08 - 4:11 pm | #
Many US problems could be solved by companies spreading out to smaller towns, etc. If companies can put call centers, etc., in India they could easily put many operations in smaller towns. Not all can do so, but many could. I think some banks have big operations in small S or N Dakota towns. The example should be followed.
remind me: never listen to Gamma again. sheesh what an idiot.
I'm a born and bred San Franciscan. lived there for 27 years. Then moved around a lot. (San Diego, Seattle, Atlanta, Houston, Chicago, Paris to name a few) I now live in the Midwest, in Minneapolis proper for 8 years.
There are tons and tons and tons of things to do. as many, if not more, than in San Francisco. The reasons for this:
1) COL is so much cheaper that I have disposible income
2) salaries in the bigger midwestern cities (Minneapolis, Chicago) are BARELY lower than the coasts but COL is much cheaper
3) it's cold 4 months of the year, so lots of things open so that you don't sit inside. Museums, opera, theatre, you name it... lots of culture (Mpls has way more theatre and arts than SF as example... it's not even a contest).
4) I"m not stuck in my car all day long. so I can get home and actually do stuff.
yes, it's cold (very cold) 3 months of the year. There are another 1-2 months where it is iffy. But from April through November the weather is fine...
besides: it ain't like SF weather is all that great. Remind me: when can you sit outside and eat? oh yeah... you can't.
Gamma; get unstuck from the 1960's. the world has changed in the last few decades. My neighborhood is very multiethnic: African (not african american), Mexican, Latin American, Hmong, Vietnamese, Chinese to name a few. I can walk to hoardes of restaurants, shops and supermarkets opened by people newly from those area...
as for seafood... there is this remarkable invention called the AIRPLANE. Many restaurants in the midwest (again bigger cities) have freshly caught seafood from around the world. It's caught in the morning, put on an airplane. unpacked here and eaten that same day.
an example off the top of my head is "the Oceanaire" a chain of seafood restaurants. but there are others as well
not to mention all the trout, salmon, walleye, bass, etc that are all local to this region.
sure, if you compare San Francisco to small town North Dakota there isn't as much to do in ND except hunting/fishing/outdoorsy stuff. But the same would happen if you compare Chicago to Fresno or Eureka.
as for the salaries:
in general people grossly overestimate salaries on the coast and grossly underestimate salaries in the midwest.
if you can't find a high paying job in the midwest you aren't looking or you don't have job skills. Some of the highest paid jobs in the country are in the midwest. again, you're probably gonna have to be in Mpls, Chicago, or Detroit, but high paid jobs are all over.
now clearly there are some jobs where you really do need to be in ONE area (ex: federal govt worker living in the DC area, tech startup in Silicon Valley, Trader working in NYC) but many other jobs can be found all over.
at one time I too believed that you could only get high paying jobs on the coasts... and then I actually started doing job searches. when we moved to the midwest my salary went UP (doctor) and wifey's went UP as well, compared to SF. COL went down.
I'll bet most of you could also do very well in the midwest, unless you don't think you can make any money working for places like Medtronic, Wells Fargo, United Health Group, Best Buy, Target, 3M, the Carlson Companies, Travelers, Ameriprize, Accenture, Deloitte, Adobe, United Air, Northwest,Allstate insurance, Chicago Board of Trade, Hyatt, to name a few.
If Ladera Ranch is in/near Ladera Heights then this is just another example of a real estate area that "gentrified" before its time. Back in 1997, the guy in our office who lived there basically said it was the hood. You can put nice houses in the hood, but you can't take the hood out because of nice houses.
Or something to that effect.
KNOW YOUR LOCATION!
I've lived in Phoenix, Milwaukee, Boston, Colorado, Los Angeles and the Bay Area.
The SF Bay Area kicks all other areas to the curb in so many ways:
- general level of intellect
- cultural diversity
- entrepreneurial spirit (even the crazies get VC $'s here)
- weather (although Santa Monica prob gets the edge here)
- jobs (I'm making way more than I could in those other cities and so are a lot of other people)
- job options (there are 200 - 500 companies I could work for in a heartbeat here, nowhere else comes close)
- adventure sports (kite surfing by date and skiing 4 hours later)
- outdoors (4 hours from Tahoe, 5 from the Lost Coast, Redwoods hiking, mountain biking Mt. Tam)
- healthy food (bay area owns seafood, multi-ethnic and organic cuisine -- OWN it) (okay, fine, NYC owns multi-ethnic and may actually have more 5-stars)
- entertainment (opera, ballet, live music, raves, techno-industrialist artist communities [see: The Crucible], pro sports, amateur sports [hawaiian paddling anyone?]).
- Bay to breakers (you know who you are)
I could go on, but my point is that when it comes to optimal lifestyle, I (and a lot of other people) have decided that the Bay Area is THE place to be. It has, does and will command a premium to other areas (as most california coastal communities do).
(As long as the moronic democrats that run the government here don't screw everything up. Hi Vallejo!)
It's a master-planned community, social engineering experiment of a sort to make an ideal suburban town with a small community feel. Imagine Stepford full of touchy-feely Californians loaded with option ARMs.
I agree with most of your points, but just a coupla-two-three comments...
Nobody eats bass. Chilean Seabass, sure. But Largemouths? Dude, that's just gross.
It's cold 45 days of the year. And thank God - otherwise we'd be stuck with no icefishing like those poor bastards in SFO.
Anony Mouse I disagree with your supposed "merits" of the City by the Bay, and quite frankly wouldn't leave MKE for SFO for triple my salary, but...
hawaiian paddling anyone?
Well, you got me there. I concede that SFO beats everywhere when it comes to leading the planet in coming up with all the new sexual kinks. I haven't even heard of that one yet.
I lived in California for 6 years (Santa Barbara and LA)...and you can keep it.
I laughed how someone above said "but salaries are better here". Ha...yes they are 20% better. Now try and buy a house that is 3 x what it really should cost. Oh and gas that is 5$ a gallon for your 2 hour commute to see the 'culture'.
Not to mention living in a completely run-down, drab desert with a bunch of angry people.
I left and the whole place can go belly up for all I care. California as a great place to live is a pipe dream for anyone who does not live in La Jolla
Someone who is looking for COL ignoring the QOL would do the best on a polar station in Antarctica. COL paid by you is zero, and the salary is great. For MidWest I personally would consider the following:
Religious nuts. Unlike California, it seems to like most MidWest states have some islands of reasonable, tolerant people surrounded by swamps of religious nuts ready to crucify anyone who doesn't accept Jesus as their savior. For me it's very important - me, my family and my kids don't give shit about Jesus, and we like it this way
Humidity. I've been only in couple of places, but it was VERY humid in summer. Almost unbearable to me.
Property tax. It's 3% in Texas, so you'll pay the same amount in property tax for the 300K property in TX and for a 900K property in CA. I didn't check other states, but it's something worth to consider as well.
There are more thing, but I'd look what you could say about those.
About property price.
Yes, it sucks when you buy it in Bay Area, but it rocks when you sell it (assuming you kept it for a while, not bought it for speculation and suffered in burble). Note that typical real estate appreciation comes from increasing land value - the building value is depreciating every year. Let's assume the land appreciates 6% a year, and building value deprecates 1% a year. Let's look on a typical Bay Area property:
Land value - 680,000
Improverment value - 260,000
Total value: 940,000
after 1 year:
Land value - 714,000
Improverment value - 257,000
Total value: 971,000
Appreciation: 31K (3.3%)
Now take a look on the same property in a midwest town:
Land value - 110,000
Improverment value - 260,000
Total value: 370,000
after 1 year, using the same appreciation:
Land value - 116,000
Improverment value - 257,000
Total value: 373,000
Appreciation: 3K (0.8%)
Hope the numbers are speaking for themselves. That's one of things you're paying for in Bay Area by having a $4000/month mortgage.
How fun to see the million dollar McHouse dropping in value.
What an ugly pile of Stepford it is, too!
Look at that car port, swollen grotesquely to hold the blob of an SUV or two. Fittingly empty now, in the era of $5/gallon.
Oddly, the carport gives the house the appearance of having these spindly insect legs -- as if the whole thing's about to go scuttling off, a Stucco Dung Beetle in search of moist comforts!
George, you're an idiot. Do you really think California property taxes are the lowest in the land? You do not get around much, do you?
I have not seen anyone crucified lately, neither in the MidWest, nor even the left coast (although it's probably coming to homeschoolers in CA). Does it burn you up so bad to have a nice person just want to talk to you about Jesus? Why does it hurt you to give them a listen? The last person crucified that I know about, George, not counting Saudi Arabia (where all kind of crap goes on), was Jesus himself, and that was 2000 years ago. Oh, Christians didn't do it, BTW (shoot, I hope I didn't spoil the movie for you!)
Good luck with your little "burble" there in the land of fruits and nuts. I think the fruits are losing out to the nuts.
I hope you enjoy your house, the beautiful scenery (no joke there), and your socialist leaders before the impending financial and cultural disaster. Hasta La Vista, amigo. Viva la Neuvo, Nuevo Mexico!
Dave Lincoln, you're exactly the kind of person I would like to never meet, calling everyone idiots who disagree with them. MidWest is full of people like you. It's you who is targeted by my bumper sticker which says "Jesus might love you, but everyone else thinks you're an asshole".
I brought property taxes in CA vs TX as one of examples why the same property in TX has much lower sticker price. You're free to provide the opposide examples if you can.
No, I REALLY do not want to have a nice person to talk to me about Jesus, Allah, Jehova, Perun, Odin or Zeus. This might be a surprise for you, but you would hardly find anyone in the United States who never heard about Jesus, and who doesn't know where to go if they decide to learn more. It doesn't make any sense to listen to them since ALL of them are trying to tell you the same bullshit, and all the evidence they have is an old book full of mistakes and contradictions. No, thanks.
George, I am not from the midwest, but I would not mind living there. I have been all over this great country - that is why I made my comment.
You just spout things out without knowing anything about the subject. That's why I called you and idiot, and I stand by my assesment.
The houses in Texas have much lower prices because there is LOTS OF LAND in Texas! It has nothing to do with the property tax rate. SF and all the bay area now is pretty hemmed in. You all have invited the world there, and there is not any room left. Fine, that's your business, but it is the reason that the basic price of land is high there. That, in turn, gives your local governments lots of money to dick you over with. (i.e. for the same tax rates - millage- they can collect a whole lot more to make new rules to lay down on you).
I would never see your bumper sticker, George, as have not been in the Bay Area in a long time. But, I will tell you that I don't call everyone who disagrees with me an idiot - only people who are indeed idiots. I call em like I see em.
So, who was it who tried to crucify you again? Name names for me.
I can see where all the nuts have gathered, and it is not the midwest, George. Ask not who the nutcracker comes for, it comes for you.
Sorry dude, it looks like you have problems with basic reading skills. Where did I say that the houses in Texas have much lower prices BECAUSE of property tax? If you move your eyes away from your Jesus, and actually read what I wrote, you'll probably see it clear:
For MidWest I personally would consider the following...
Property tax. It's 3% in Texas, so you'll pay the same amount in property tax for the 300K property in TX and for a 900K property in CA. I didn't check other states, but it's something worth to consider as well.
...which basically means you pay the same property tax in TX for the property three times cheaper than in CA. Why did you read it as the only reason the prices in TX are much lower, I have no idea. If I were you, I'd probably say you need to sober up and stop smoking crack before writing a reply, but since I'm not such an impolite selfish asshole, I'll only say that your opinion is biased and ungrounded.
You can promote yourself any way you want - your actions speak much louder than your self-appraisal. You seems to be no different than Middle Age christians who "spread the word about Jesus" through the swords. I really appreciate you haven't been in Bay Area for a long time - please don't come back. You do fine in the place all nuts have gathered; stay there.
Hey George, what does this mean: "I brought property taxes in CA vs TX as one of examples why the same property in TX has much lower sticker price."?
"Where did I say that the houses in Texas have much lower prices BECAUSE of property tax?" Right there, in the line I quote above.
See, George, I can comprehend the meaning of your writing, and that is what makes me think you are an idiot. You can't go recinding your post, as it is clearly visible just 4 or 5 posts above for both of us to see.
I don't know why you have such animosity to someone who even mentions Jesus - I did not say I was a Christian even. You seem to have a very high fear toward anything unknown, not just regions of the country, but people different from your kind (meaning, of course, the fruits and the nuts).
I'll come back to the Bay Area anytime I please, but I don't expect you'd go anywhere east of Berkeley because you could indeed, run into people who are not your kind, and who for some reason, scare you. Oh, and the humidity is too high too. Scared of humidity, too? Sometimes you just gotta sweat it out.
Dude, not only you'd use some attitude, you'd also use some brain power as well.
Since it's considered good to take care of mentally disabled, I'd step down and explain it to you once more. "One of the examples" does not mean "the only reason". It means "one of the reasons". A high property tax eats up the property investment value, putting a pressure on how high/how fast the price could go up. You could compare the appreciation rates in TX and AZ (Phoenix, for example) - note that both places have a lot of land to build housing.
So next time you want to see an idiot, please check the nearby mirror. And seeing a lot of nuts, I'm not scared of them. I just don't want to live close to them.
Right George, way to backtrack; it sounds like a certain presidential candidate I could name.
So, "one of the reasons" that Texas properties cost less is that the taxes are higher? I seriously doubt it's a big factor at all, compared to Texas has a LOT OF LAND! I already said that to you. That is the main reason - the Bay Area is hemmed by geography.
Do the numbers here: Let's say your prop. tax in a certain area in TX is 1 whole %-point higher than it is in your area in CA. Yet, even a good interest rate is around 6%. So, for a given loan amount, that property tax difference would be only 16 - 17% of the difference in your payments on interest (probably insurance too, but I'm not sure on that). It would be different if one puts a large down-payment down, but then opportunity costs come into play too.
So, the property tax difference is not any major reason that the properties in TX cost much less than in CA. How about that?
George, you need to get around. You have a total lack of diversity of ideas over there in your area. You should get out more and see the country to get rid of your small-mindedness. It's so obvious to me.
Does anyone know the profit margins selling crack and hourly room rentals?
I doubt I'd pay $299,000 for the "million dollar" house. It looks like maybe $150,000 in a nice mid-Western town.
What's Ms. Busta got to say about this?
"This house sold for $585,000 in 2006?"
I can see the ad write-up:
"Two buildings on extra-large lot -- income potential! Live in one, convert the other for rental. Extra large lot has room for additional granny unit, pool, ?????? The sky's the limit!"
Yesterday, I finished reading "The Middle Class Millionaire" that heralds Ladera Ranch as an enclave of the middle-class millionaires who take risk, prosper, network and move up. The authors claim that Ladera Ranch homes have kept the values in the down market because it reflect the middle-class millionaire culture.
Well, now we know. It's about a bubble.
"I doubt I'd pay $299,000 for the "million dollar" house. It looks like maybe $150,000 in a nice mid-Western town."
Welcome to California real estate. If I could buy a house like that where I live for $300K, it'd be a viable income property investment.
In Florida, even now, it would be at least half a mil, depending where it was.
Would still be a million five in my neighborhood ... currently...
Wow, great article CR. The pictures are fantastic.
This house sold for $585,000 in 2006?
I think there's been some redecorating since.
Those who don't live in California should be aware that (a) Californians make more and (b) they pay a larger proportion of the income for housing, which is perfectly logical given the climate, recreational and job opportunities, etc. So steep prices by standards elsewhere are quite reasonable. That said, the peak prices were beyond insane, even after accounting for the location.
Let us spray.
70% haircut on that Ladera Ranch home?!?
Oooohhhhhhwwwwwww...
Man, and people thought I was being too harsh predicting 40-50% declines in much of CA real estate values.
Dude is that the house Mischa Barton lived in. 60 declines are more probable now.
That house will not sell anywhere near the minimum bid. It is just a tease.
I'd recommend moving to a "nice mid-Western town" if you can. Life is better and RE is sure a lot more reasonable. No problems with commute either. (I'd avoid Iowa river towns, however.)
Central City in Nebraska is a very nice little town on the Platte river that is virtually guaranteed not to flood. You can watch the sandhill cranes fly in every year, go duck hunting in the fall, pheasant hunting too, and fishing all summer. Winter brings snow, but it is perfectly manageable in a small town like that. What to do? Live off your stock investments, of course. Short hop to the supermarket and anything else you might need.
"nice Midwestern towns"... you mean the ones where the hobbies are eating and drinking and freezing your ass off 9 months/yr?
At least in IL, WI, IA, MN, SD, ND, and NE - the vvvvvast majority of people have no hobbies.
Granted there are exceptions (dryfly will probably be all over me for these comments) but for the most part I think life in the midwest is pretty sad.
I moved many, many people to Ladera Ranch, CA from cities within Orange County, CA in 05=07...this is a prime area for people who wanted to buy a house where the builder installed the graniteel....
Ladera is a "noveau rich" Coto de Caza...
and, in 06 and 07 I moved a few folks, who personally moved from a big Ladera Ranch home to a much bigger and grander Ladera Ranch home...these are the people, who will surely get stung when their Alt-A loans come due next year and some very nice homes will be flooding the market.....
it's going to be interesting and sad to watch.....
"I doubt I'd pay $299,000 for the "million dollar" house. It looks like maybe $150,000 in a nice mid-Western town."
Seriously, last time I was in TX that was maybe a $250,000 house.
That house in Santa Ana is right across the street from a school(probably a HS). I bet that's where all the kids go to paint. LOL!!
I think life it what you make it. If you are into nothing but eating and drinking, then that's your life. You don't surf the net? Watch nature programs on TV? Read? Socialize with nice neighbors? Like picnics? In the modern world, small towns are hardly isolated places anymore you know. The only thing missing there is big city problems.
"Short hop to the supermarket and anything else you might need."
A good Thai restaurant? An art-house cinema? Fresh seafood?
"you mean the ones where the hobbies are eating and drinking and freezing your ass off 9 months/yr?"
Naw, like Chris says, there's huntin and fishin and stuff. If your hobby is sitting around and killing small animals, the Midwest sounds great!
You have to be on the coast to have "fresh seafood" in the US and not everyone can live on a coast. Frozen seafood is quite good enough for even fastidious eaters. If you want Thai, then learn to cook it yourself. Most small midwestern towns have a decent Chinese restaurant. If you want arty movies, buy them from Amazon and watch them in the comfort of your home.
Got any minorities there in Central City, Nebraska?
Well protestants are now a minority.
You really need "minorities" around you? If so, move to London or New York or LA and buy your abode in a minority neighborhood. You're welcome to do that.
Granted there are exceptions (dryfly will probably be all over me for these comments) but for the most part I think life in the midwest is pretty sad.
Gamma | 06.16.08 - 3:11 pm | #
Yup all over you - completely FOS.
People are people everywhere - not much changes. I've lived in the east, in the south & a couple different places in the center... not much about human nature changes including people's provincial attitudes about others they don't know - hmmm?
Oh and ya everywhere in the Midwest is really ugly too - like this picture taken near my neck of the woods. I've actually hiked up there about 100 times. The view the other way is even better but hard to photograph at sunset - you stare straight into the sun at that time of year.
Also - you can buy nice houses up and down that river for $100K-200K - VERY nice house. No graffiti, no crack addicts... just homes, neighbors, schools, jobs. Oh and hobbies too.
Open your mind and your ass will follow... try it sometime gamma.
"You have to be on the coast to have "fresh seafood" in the US and not everyone can live on a coast. Frozen seafood is quite good enough for even fastidious eaters. If you want Thai, then learn to cook it yourself. Most small midwestern towns have a decent Chinese restaurant. If you want arty movies, buy them from Amazon and watch them in the comfort of your home."
My contention is with the phrase "anything you might need" in your original post. Some of us need brighter lights than the tuna casserole and lutefisk smorgasbord down at St. Olaf's Lutheran. (I say that as a life-long son of Luther!) Not to mention going outside in February in a windbreaker and t-shirt.
The starting bid is $299,000. That doesn't mean it was sold for that price; only that is will not go for less than that figure. It looks like in the end it would go for 600-700K to me.
Interesting Yes...
Sad??? HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
Sad is when someone is responsible and loses a home. This doesn't come close.
Ciao
MS
If you can't do without the Met operas and the New York stage, the money you save by living in Central City will be perfectly adequate to take a ten day trip to the Big Apple, stay at a first class hotel and gorge on opera and theater. And then you can go back to civilized living afterward.
i'd rather spend 300k for decent place in CA than 150k in a backwater swamp. "you get what you pay for" applies here.
Detecting some coastal envy from the Midwest?
Hey we just saw that 'decent place' and you can have it. I'd take the "backwater swamp" (picture provided by dryfly) anyday.
Noticing the URL of Dryfly's image link. "When in doubt, apply for Stout." That still brings a smile to my face (my parents are both Stout alumni).
why the hell would you care if "minorities" live there?
In any city there is a "minority"
In some cities, the "minority" is white people.
Im so sick of this race issue and making sure there are equal amount of each race in every city.
So in 100 years America and Europe look like mini worlds, while Africa and Asia still have a mono-culture?
How unfair is that?
Open your mind and your ass will follow...
Dryfly, I don't know what this even means, but it made be laugh at work, so I thank you.
If you can't do without the Met operas and the New York stage, the money you save by living in Central City will be perfectly adequate to take a ten day trip to the Big Apple, stay at a first class hotel and gorge on opera and theater. And then you can go back to civilized living afterward.
Yes, most definitely. New York, uncivilized. Farm town in the middle of nowhere, pinnacle of civilization.
Come on. When's the last time you were in New York? We don't bite. (Anymore.)
If you are a culture-vulture there are midwestern university towns that are full of "cultivated" people and pursuits: Lincoln, NE, Lawrence, KS, Columbia, MO, Ames, IA, Madison WI, etc., etc., etc.
Anonymous writes:
Got any minorities there in Central City, Nebraska?
Anonymous | 06.16.08 - 3:18 pm | #
We sure do in my Mississippi River river town - predominantly white but still a mix... black, white, Hispanic, Asian. And not terribly segregated either - have BOTH a Mexican immigrant family & a mixed white/black couple on my block of eight houses. Oh and natives too - Dakota community not far away either (15 miles maybe)?
Not one gated community within a 50 mile radius.
Oh and ya everywhere in the Midwest is really ugly too - like this picture taken near my neck of the woods. I've actually hiked up there about 100 times. The view the other way is even better but hard to photograph at sunset - you stare straight into the sun at that time of year.
Also - you can buy nice houses up and down that river for $100K-200K - VERY nice house. No graffiti, no crack addicts... just homes, neighbors, schools, jobs. Oh and hobbies too.
Open your mind and your ass will follow... try it sometime gamma.
Yeah, I never got the sense that it was "sad" when I was in Northern Ohio. Industry was indisputably in decline and I guess some of the school districts that were running out of money were "sad", but over all I had a good experience up there. I liked the people and the area.
In NYC last year returning from Portugal. Hated the prices, the oppressively tall buildings, the rude people, mediocre food in supposedly fine restaurants, etc., etc. If I had to be near a big city I'd sure prefer Chicago to NY.
Gamma, nice troll.
You're right, I should move to California and take up a hobby.
Let's see...spraypainting seems popular...
Come on. When's the last time you were in New York? We don't bite. (Anymore.)
‽‽‽ | 06.16.08 - 3:33 pm | #
In the city? About four years ago... Upstate? Last year. My daughter went to RPI, my niece (also Midwestern) works at Battery Park - or did until she had a baby. We would meet & do museums, theatre & such.
My wife is going to Javitz next week on biz - asked if I wanted to go with & I declined, maybe next time. My daughter will meet her there (she is visiting old school chums) - they'll all go shop. Besides the trout action here is picking up. If she asked me off-season then I might have gone.
Priorities you know.
Well, when I look at NYC I see increased economic opportunity, more attractive people, hundreds more art, music, and cultural opportunities than any other city in the country, and a more forgiving social support structure.
I'd love to retire to a more rural area, but there's a reason all the smart kids leave the sticks after college.
Please note that my troll post immediately above was meant for Chris only!
anony-1797 writes:
Noticing the URL of Dryfly's image link. "When in doubt, apply for Stout." That still brings a smile to my face (my parents are both Stout alumni).
anony-1797 | 06.16.08 - 3:32 pm | #
My youngest son actually wants to go there - wow, says something about our inadequate parenting skills.
I'd love to retire to a more rural area, but there's a reason all the smart kids leave the sticks after college.
‽‽‽ | 06.16.08 - 3:43 pm | #
A shocking number come back to spawn - like salmon swimming upstream (of course no one tells them the salmon then die - details I guess)...
Dryfly-
Send me a picture from atop that knoll in February...
I live in Chicago and my wife is from Minneapolis (pretty nice town) so I hardly think I'm ignorant to what the midwest has to offer. I never said there were NO hobbies (I waterski and hunt), but people in the midwest act like people in CA are crazy (obviously they were the past few years), but people in CA pay a premium to live there for good reason. The weather and access to water and mountains make it a much nicer place to live. I've found that alot of people in the midwest haven't spent too much time there and run wild with preconceptions.
My point wasn't to troll it was to refute the midwest attitude of "just move out here".
Again... let's see that picture in February when it's 10 below zero and under 4 feet fo snow.
A shocking number come back to spawn - like salmon swimming upstream (of course no one tells them the salmon then die - details I guess)...
I might be one of them, but for me the sticks are rural Pennsylvania. Proximity to family is pretty important.
If only the employment situation was better out there...
I'm looking forward to an ethnographic peak at the Bando lifestyle. Seems awesome.
Well if you have to have a California climate, move to Costa Rica or Chile or other places where it is cheaper. Need to learn Spanish of course, but then you're very much into culture, are you not? Speaking a foreign language would be just the thing for you. LOL.
I live in Orange County,
You could not buy anything in Santa Ana for under 500k in 2006. Small,
1000 sq ft homes that are 50 years old have now dropped at least 50%.
And they are still too much.
This home with the extra decorating has dropped somewhat more. Reminds me of the listing that i saw which said "Rumored to have plumbing".
Ladera Ranch house should sell for over 600k at the moment. I looked at a lot of homes in Ladera Ranch - Taxes too high. 1.8%. I believe about 1% of tax is tied to price of house - the other .8% is fixed bonds. So as price of house goes down should see tax rate over 2%.
Not one gated community within a 50 mile radius
Of course not. Nobody owns a big screen teevee or nice car or computer. Nothing worth stealing but chipmonks and fish are available for the taking!
Bear porn at it's finest...
OT -- no one tell Seb and O-Joe -- no need to spoil their lunch -- but the two private sector monthly GDP forecasts that the NBER Business Cycle Dating Committee peruses are down again for April and May:
US Monthly GDP for October 2009
http://www.macroadvisers.com/content/MA_Monthly_GDP_Index.xls
chipmUnks, please. let's not insult our furry friends.
Love that picture Dryfly. That's in the same neighborhood where my fiancee's family hails from. Was just looking at some RE listings on the water in NW Wisconsin. It would be a nice place to work from for a few months a year.
This is OT but interesting. I've been talking for some time about insurance company failures. They include monolines, PBGC and some niches nobody has heard of. Here's an example from today's NY Times.
State Seeks Way to Help Workers Hurt On the Job - NY Times
"State officials say they may have to create a $200 million emergency fund to finance workers compensation benefits for thousands of injured New Yorkers because 12 trusts that provided insurance to their employers have failed financially.
"The self-insured trusts provide workers compensation insurance to groups of small- to medium-size employers in the same industry, and the failure of so many of them in recent months has sparked fears of a cutoff in benefits to thousands of injured workers. It has also generated criticism that the State Workers Compensation Board was lax in regulating the trusts. There are 50 group trusts remaining in the state that provide insurance to more than 20,000 businesses with a total of about 500,000 employees."
Bureucrats are laying this huge loss on administrative mismanagement. But it has to be more such as too many claims, too little funding, or bad investments.
The result will be higher costs for many types of biz operating in NY state and probably general tax hit, too. The crunch on corporate earnings continues. And all this is happening before Obama.
chipmUnks, please. let's not insult our furry friends
I was trying to inject some religious diversity into the discussion.
I lived in LA for almost 30 years and I have no desire to go back. Idaho and Arizona were okay in some ways like cost, crime, etc, but ultimately I discovered that they were a bit ingrown and provincial. In LA religion is a hobby but in Idaho it's grounds for hiring / firing. No, thanks.
I've lived in LA (South Bay) and Kansas City. Where would I rather live? In South Bay.
But I say to everyone, wake up and see the beauty in your own community and scratch beneath the surface. I think I have in Kansas City, and it's a beautiful city.
I live in La Jolla, and have lived in California for 13 of my 28 adult years. I long for the relative sanity of Minneapolis, Chicago, or Austin, where I also lived as an adult.
I honestly believe that this place, California, is going to devolve to a Mad Max atmosphere.
Back on topic - did you guys see the video? At the 2:34 mark, Tom Sebring (Wells Fargo "Mortgage Consultant") claims the inventory has fallen "from 12 to 18 months worth of inventory at the beginning of the year" to its current level which is "down to about 6 months worth".
I think he meant to say 6 years worth.
La Jolla is NOT a sane place however it is also not prone to crime either...
Boo hoo JG you live there......
Ciao
MS
My youngest son actually wants to go there - wow, says something about our inadequate parenting skills.
dryfly | 06.16.08 - 3:44 pm |
well, you do spend an awful lotta time here at CR
gamma and dryfly,
As a former resident of San jose, ca and Madison wi and current resident of mordor-on-Potomac (Washington dc, a world of its own), I feel qualified to say you both make good points.
Frankly I LOVED Madison and would move back in a heartbeat. Yet the only thing a comp sci PhD can do is teach at the university (and as a grad, I would never be hired to the faculty).
Bob dobb, Madison has more restaurants per capita than anywhere in the US. I honestly think in terms of price / quality, Madison restaurants cannot be beat.
The employment opportunities for me are concentrated in major metros. I tell people at the companies where I work that if someone opened a research lab in a small Midwest university town, they could save a bundle and they would have little recruitment issues.
Hear about the idjits living here? The councilperson in Lodi (?) getting a $100 ticket cuz she watered the lawn of the foreclosed house next door. Nero could have taken lessons on fiddling from the politicians in CA.
Must be muuch less reason to live here with gas at $4.55 gal this morning. Went to grad party for best friend's kid in Truckee yesterday. School's out, where are the people?
BTW, lived there for two years and I'd take it over the valleys in the center each and every day. 'Course, that meant I missed the "culture". You know, looking at a painting of a sunset while standing inside a museum. Listening to beautiful music while sitting inside away from those pesky birds.
Ladera Ranch is a very nice master-planned community. Good overall plan, nice mix of sizes of homes, lots of parks/pools/etc. Construction quality is reasonable for the price originally paid. Decent weather. However. As mentioned above, the tax rate is really high, and the monthly fees start at roughly $400. And, because pretty much all of it was built after 2004, my guess is that a majority of owners in there (excepting those with big down payments) are underwater. That, to me, is sad.
MS, we RENT a modest 3 BR, 1.5 BA home that in any other sane place would rent for $1,000-$1,500 per month.
Yeah, the weather is awesome, but we are getting more and more homeless folks here.
Sorry to mention this during lunch, but, one week ago, I saw a first for me: a homeless person doing a BM on the sidewalk, 6:30 p.m. during the week.
Lovely.
tiger and rocco tied after 18, go to sudden death playoff, with pistols at 100 feet.
My point wasn't to troll it was to refute the midwest attitude of "just move out here".
That wasn't what you said or what a reasonable person would have assumed you meant from what you said. Just re-read your comment from above...
Granted there are exceptions (dryfly will probably be all over me for these comments) but for the most part I think life in the midwest is pretty sad.
Gamma | 06.16.08 - 3:11 pm | #
As for this...
Send me a picture from atop that knoll in February...
Its fabulous then - been there MANY times in the depths of winter. Probably the most beautiful time of year IF there is snow. And you don't even need to hike to get vistas like that. In winter, on that stretch of road with parking lot overlooks, you can see a hundred bald eagles in a couple hours - folks come from all over the country to see them... specifically in February & March before they migrate up into N Minn & Canada.
The birders & antique chasers then all eat at local five star restaurants (specifically catering to outsiders) & stay at B&Bs (to the tune of a couple hundred a night)... and then politely leave so we can all get back to our lives.
I do most of my business in Chicago - it is rare to find a senior exec or owner of the companies I call on who hasn't vacationed in my area at one time or another. They all rave about it. Why do they come? Because it is interesting.
There are places like this all over America including in Cali - the pixs CR linked to DO NOT reflect that California. The folks who live there do not experience that 'better California' life. There are folks in the Midwest with similar misfortune - live in shit holes - but like California, not all - not even 'most' live that way. Living in the Midwest doesn't make your life 'sad' just like living in Cali doesn't automatically make it 'gay' (forgive the double entendre).
People really aren't that different place to place.
I will be coming to La Jolla and will be having Cadillac Escalades and Lexus SUV for lunch.
Dinner will be Ferraris and Range Rovers lightly peppered.
"Bob dobb, Madison has more restaurants per capita than anywhere in the US. I honestly think in terms of price / quality, Madison restaurants cannot be beat."
College towns don't count
. I live in a college town; even in California, it's rare to find a town under 60K with two symphonies, a national Shakespeare festival, two art house theaters, two giant locally-owned bookstores, several major festivals a years, and a bloody seaside amusement park with several roller coasters.
Madison has long been touted by coasters as an oasis of culture in the midwest -- but you have to stay in Madison, right? I can go 100 miles north and 50 miles south and find the kind of culture I like.
50 miles east, that's another matter: out there in the San Joaquin Valley you can find plenty of places much like Chris' beloved Central City. Spent much time there; no thanks.
well, you do spend an awful lotta time here at CR
Punditry | 06.16.08 - 4:11 pm | #
LOL. He's on the computer next to me half the time - really bad sign.
a homeless person doing a BM on the sidewalk, 6:30 p.m. during the week.
One week ago? I think he probably read Tanta's post on the OCC's Mortgage Metrics report. When I read how the OCC decided to define Alt-A, I shit my pants as well.
If someone wants to live in the US and a foreign country AND learn Spanish, they can come to Miami, and probably buy a waterfront tower condo really really cheap in about 6 months. Or, who knows? Right now.
Tho I must say, I can read spanish, but can't understand the Cubans. Other Spanish speakers can't understand them either.
Dryfly, Bob Dobbs,
You guys need to git down here to Dallas. I live on a 24,000 surface acre lake within walking distance to super dining. It's only 20 miles to downtown Dallas. Drive 20 miles east for huntin and fishin and 20 miles west for culture. And you can have it all for less than $130/sq' new.
I like both you guys so you can stay where you are.
It's not a good idea to try and convince people on the coasts to move to "small midwestern towns"; if they start thinking its a good idea, they won't be small towns anymore! Let the Californians stay in California!
Madison has long been touted by coasters as an oasis of culture in the midwest -- but you have to stay in Madison, right? I can go 100 miles north and 50 miles south and find the kind of culture I like.
No its similar, really Bob.
I've been to Central Coast - my daughter looked pretty hard at Cal Poly so we went up and down from just North of LA where Dawg lives through SLO-Pismo up to Monterrey & SC and finally to just shy of SJ. We wanted her to get a feel for the whole region if she was going to go to school out there - she wasn't going to be able to come home on weekends.
She liked it - chose not to go there but liked it a lot, we all did.
It isn't that different except for the weather/terrain.
If you compare Madison - there are islands of enlightenment all over the region... up along the shore of Lk Superior (Bayfield) or into Door County (Lk Michigan) down along Lake Michigan between Milwaukee & Chicago... the small rural towns in S Wisc where Chicago people have 'escapes'... and the bluff country to the west over by the Mississippi River near me.
And 'yes' they are islands in a sea of corn & cows & factory towns but 'we locals' know them all. I certainly wouldn't expect you - out there - to know them, but they are here.
Tiger shoots Rocco with his putter.
City mice vs. country mice! lol The issue for most isn't the atmosphere. It's jobs. I love the Cape, and I love western MA too. But I couldn't do what I love there...no jobs in what I do, or if there are the pay stinks. And no, the differential in pay isn't matched by decreased living costs. Food, fuel, and everything else is what it is. Housing may be less, but not that much less to off-set a 40 to 50% pay reduction. I want to have enough to retire on one day.
So I think it's an overly facile thing to say "move here". First of all, taste is taste, and second (and perhaps most important) money is money.
Anonymous says: HA HA Ha!
"Sad is when someone is responsible and lose their home. This doesn't come close."
Sorry, many of the folks I move do indeed have sad stories....and, many are going to be hurt financially through no fault of their own...
those who need to move to take care of a sick parent....their company says take this move or become unemployed...the person, who lived in a nice middle class home, with a neatly manicured lawn, who's house value was destroyed by a dilapidated foreclosure at the end of the block.....silently listening to the people moving out of state, who state they are renting out their home and will sell when prices go up in a year or two.... the people living in a one family/home neighborhood, who suddenly find them in a muti-family-living-in-one-home environment....
the people who lost their company/job/inccome (andnow their home)due to the economy-be-a-changing.....
Sorry, Anonymous, although I see many folks for whom I have little sympathy, there's a large group of poeple who got hurt through no fault of their own ...... and that is sad..
"And 'yes' they are islands in a sea of corn & cows & factory towns but 'we locals' know them all. I certainly wouldn't expect you - out there - to know them, but they are here."
I've just never cared much for island living, you know what I mean.
‽‽‽ | 06.16.08 - 3:43 pm | #
I'd love to retire to a more rural area, but there's a reason all the smart kids leave the sticks after college.
The retiring part happens on distance/culture on a scale larger than initially apparent.
Youll be surprised at the variety you'd get even in in the boondocks.
Out in South Sri lanka, even with a civil war going on I have Austrian and German Neighbours.
In the southern capital Galle, next to my cousin two texas ladies one in her 70's and her daughter late 40's (each with thier own house).
One of the websites for property is run by a german Sri Lanka Real Estate - Property House Land Immobilien Hikkaduwa Galle Bentota
Of course I live in NYC. !!!
So I think it's an overly facile thing to say "move here". First of all, taste is taste, and second (and perhaps most important) money is money.
ipodius | 06.16.08 - 4:35 pm | #
I actually agree with that ipod.
When the wife & I were looking for a place to settle down - I lobbied for living in the city. She vetoed. Irony is I spent most of my growing up in rural settings she in the city - we both wanted 'greener pastures'. She won.
The people living in some of those hell holes in CR's link (did ya see 'em?)... would have been better off living about anywhere else don't you think? No green pastures anywhere in that collection.
I certainly can find places that grim in the Midwest but you at least get that nastiness for a whole lot less money. Crap comes cheaper here.
sbarrkum | Homepage | 06.16.08 - 4:45 pm | #
One of the websites for property is run by a german Sri Lanka Real Estate - Property House Land Immobilien Hikkaduwa Galle Bentota
Talking about bubbles, looks like one has to burst in Sri lanka from the prices on the website.
USD for 600K for a house in the middle of nowhere.
Here is a LA times blog story on a Ladera Ranch house REO auction.
2005, sold for $1.2 million
2007, foreclosed
2008 march, REO auction
Listed for $915
the scheduled opening bid $429,000
the winning bid $705,000 + auction fees
The lender wanted $800,000 at min, so rejected the winning bid.
Auction for Ladera Ranch: A foreclosure bidding war with a twist | L.A. Land | Los Angeles Times
I've just never cared much for island living, you know what I mean.
Bob Dobbs | Homepage | 06.16.08 - 4:42 pm | #
To each his own - but having spent time on the central coast - it isn't that different from 'Wisconsin' on a 'people' level. That thing they call the central coast turned out to be surprisingly long and spread out - kinda like 'islands' on a big long archipelago.
Oh I agree dryfly! I think it has a lot to do with what you grow up with too. I grew up here in Boston, but realize it isn't everyone's cup of tea. In my last job I split my time between LA and Boston. Talk about bi-polar disorder
And the mid-west isn't bad at all. I'm not much of an extreme rural guy...I like the city. But there are plenty of places that are very nice and livable for shorter money. I think it depends on industry and jobs more than anything else. But I plan on retiring to a more small town place on the cape. And i won't look back when I do, as long as I can still drive to the city once in a while for the bigger life there.
Talking about bubbles, looks like one has to burst in Sri lanka from the prices on the website.
USD for 600K for a house in the middle of nowhere.
sbarrkum | Homepage | 06.16.08 - 4:52 pm | #
Why so much? What drives it?
OT: Trying to keep track of Obama's retirement initiatives is driving me nuts; there are just too many programs, different earnings cap, donut holes, etc.
Get retirement savings $$ from Uncle Sam - Jun. 16, 2008
If you're going to require employers to create auto-enrolling 401(k)s, then it would seem that SS would be redundant. If one plan defines the "rich" at 250K, then they all should.
I wonder if he even knows all the programs that he's espousing, or if he's just pandering to get the senior votes.
Scrolling through the pictures, I'm completely blown away by the notion that this is what Fed/Treasury/Congress is going through all these machinations to prop up.
"To each his own - but having spent time on the central coast - it isn't that different from 'Wisconsin' on a 'people' level. That thing they call the central coast turned out to be surprisingly long and spread out - kinda like 'islands' on a big long archipelago."
Geographically, yes; but all the islands are on more or less the same wavelength. And being at the top of the chain, we connect more directly to San Jose (30 miles away) and San Francisco (a fast 75 up the coast highway).
Ha. You want boring, lack of culture and horrible weather? Try San Fernando Valley or Simi Valley. Most people in the Los Angeles area can't afford to live anywhere near the beach. So they move inland where it's an ocean of concrete for miles on end and 110º in the summer.
Back in Colorado I have a view of the Rockies from my bedroom window, sun over 300 days a year, Denver if I feel the need to see some art or theatre. The people here are on the whole better educated and more interesting. The seafood is flown in just like it was in LA (what, you thought they caught it in Santa Monica?)
And our house payments are $1400/mo., including taxes and insurance.
I agree with Dryfly - life is interesting almost anywhere. The internet has made information, opinions, ideas accessible from anywhere.
I love the outdoors, so would have no trouble living in the sticks (rather than suburbia). The opportunities for hiking, canoeing, kayaking, gardening, stargazing, painting, cooking, learning more about the natural world - that's what attracts me. My last trip into NYC was nasty. Noise, people, more noise, more people, lousy overpriced food, stuffed subways. Yet, some people like it.
California, though
the weather is boring, hot and arid. The place is a semi-desert and is meant to be that way. The water is almost non-existent. The carrying capacity has been exceeded. I remember reading TWO YEARS BEFORE THE MAST, and thinking, well, that's what California really is, buried under all those houses.
I drove through Ladera Ranch in 05 with one of my sales reps (we supplied a bunch of engineered fluid handling equipment for Santa Margarita Water District).
We were commenting on the prices of the houses in that development. We looked at one 4BR up on a hill...and my rep commented on how that $1.7M house was still a good investment. I told him it was a bloodbath in the making. It might go up a little more...to $2M...but ultimately it would get sold for less than $600K.
He looked at me like I was nuts...and then told me I was a fool for not buying a house.
What an bonehead. Even now he keeps insisting that it is a good time to buy a house. You would think he would learn....
"Here is a LA times blog story on a Ladera Ranch house REO auction.
2005, sold for $1.2 million
2007, foreclosed
2008 march, REO auction
Listed for $915
the scheduled opening bid $429,000
the winning bid $705,000 + auction fees
The lender wanted $800,000 at min, so rejected the winning bid."
Next time...the winning bid will be $650K. It will get rejected...then the next time it will be $575K...and the lender will throw in the towell. The buyer will still lose money over the next 5 years.
I love when the life long urbanites whose version of reality is just as incomplete as those who have lived in the sticks all their lives...turn their noses up.
BrantW, yeah I know, we have a realtor in our family who says its bad press driving prices down. She has never been through even one housing downturn, muchless have to fathom a housing depression.
Living in the SF Bay Area.....people talk about avoiding the cold winters in other parts of the country -- I'm willing to pay a decent premium for housing just to avoid humidity in the summer.
"I'm willing to pay a decent premium for housing just to avoid humidity in the summer."
Come south to Peninsular/South Bay. You can have a dry summer here with a highly decent premium.
Getting back to the original blog post--was anyone else struck by the fact that in several of these cases, the borrowers were relatively low-income laborers (one supposedly cut grass for a living) who (according to neighbors) bought in a lot of lodgers to help cover the costs? In a couple of cases, the neighbors told the photographer that there were 15 or more people living in the place.
The carrying capacity has been exceeded. I remember reading TWO YEARS BEFORE THE MAST, and thinking, well, that's what California really is, buried under all those houses.
amen, it was exceeded back in 1970. Before then, life was pretty good just about anywhere in CA.
I hitched around the country in the early seventies. Loved California nature. Surfed, climbed some mountains (Shasta is a holy place) and stuck around for a couple of years.
But even then, the economics didn't work for me. I paid twice as much for one third the space I'd had in Houston, entry level jobs were scarce to nonexistent and didn't pay enough for such frivolities as food. Besides, the surf was nice and the Pacific gorgeous, but the water was just too damned cold.
California's economics just don't make sense - except for the wealthy. Public sector employees (and anyone making the equivalent salary or less) can't afford to live where they work - and now they can't afford the commute.
A permanent underclass has been created - and while this problem was temporarily masked by essentially paying anyone who could fog a mirror to occupy way more house than they could actually...uh...pay for... while they served coffee and burgers and mowed lawns and built more unaffordable homes, the merry-go-round has stopped.
Your problems have just begun - they will either spawn some really enlightened and progressive solutions - because they have there in the past - or your cities will again burn. Your present leadership isn't up to the task - and I think things will have to get a lot worse before your citizenry will accept anything but bandaids.
Good luck from Texas.
dryfly, - sounds beautiful - but I can't handle the cold.
Texas has it's drawbacks, but there are jobs here - and housing is a LOT more affordable - along with just about everything else.
I live in Ladera Ranch, and a regret in my life was moving to this faux town. Lots of fake people, fake money and plastic faces. Needless to say, I don't plan on retiring here.
Ladera Ranch was built during the bubble - from 1999 - 2008, so I'd say a good % of the home"owners" are underwater. It was not uncommon to pay $350.00 on up a square foot. It is the option ARM/HELOC your home to the max capital of the world.
Anyways, I live near the home pictured. A realistic price I see for that house is around $500,000. Yes, that sounds crazy if you're in the midwest, but California real estate just costs more.
Fortunately, I didn't get caught up in the "irrational exuberance". I bought my house in 2000 with a sizeable down payment at 2 times my annual income. I thought all these people were nuts for paying what they did - turns out I was right.
I tell people at the companies where I work that if someone opened a research lab in a small Midwest university town, they could save a bundle and they would have little recruitment issues.
badger boy | 06.16.08 - 4:11 pm | #
Many US problems could be solved by companies spreading out to smaller towns, etc. If companies can put call centers, etc., in India they could easily put many operations in smaller towns. Not all can do so, but many could. I think some banks have big operations in small S or N Dakota towns. The example should be followed.
wow...
remind me: never listen to Gamma again. sheesh what an idiot.
I'm a born and bred San Franciscan. lived there for 27 years. Then moved around a lot. (San Diego, Seattle, Atlanta, Houston, Chicago, Paris to name a few) I now live in the Midwest, in Minneapolis proper for 8 years.
There are tons and tons and tons of things to do. as many, if not more, than in San Francisco. The reasons for this:
1) COL is so much cheaper that I have disposible income
2) salaries in the bigger midwestern cities (Minneapolis, Chicago) are BARELY lower than the coasts but COL is much cheaper
3) it's cold 4 months of the year, so lots of things open so that you don't sit inside. Museums, opera, theatre, you name it... lots of culture (Mpls has way more theatre and arts than SF as example... it's not even a contest).
4) I"m not stuck in my car all day long. so I can get home and actually do stuff.
yes, it's cold (very cold) 3 months of the year. There are another 1-2 months where it is iffy. But from April through November the weather is fine...
besides: it ain't like SF weather is all that great. Remind me: when can you sit outside and eat? oh yeah... you can't.
Gamma; get unstuck from the 1960's. the world has changed in the last few decades. My neighborhood is very multiethnic: African (not african american), Mexican, Latin American, Hmong, Vietnamese, Chinese to name a few. I can walk to hoardes of restaurants, shops and supermarkets opened by people newly from those area...
as for seafood... there is this remarkable invention called the AIRPLANE. Many restaurants in the midwest (again bigger cities) have freshly caught seafood from around the world. It's caught in the morning, put on an airplane. unpacked here and eaten that same day.
an example off the top of my head is "the Oceanaire" a chain of seafood restaurants. but there are others as well
not to mention all the trout, salmon, walleye, bass, etc that are all local to this region.
sure, if you compare San Francisco to small town North Dakota there isn't as much to do in ND except hunting/fishing/outdoorsy stuff. But the same would happen if you compare Chicago to Fresno or Eureka.
The house next to my sister's in Mission Viejo was
REO auction with opening bid of $100k. High bid was a little over $400k, which the bank rejected.
So, I'm skeptical of the opening bids being close to a price that would be accepted.
as for the salaries:
in general people grossly overestimate salaries on the coast and grossly underestimate salaries in the midwest.
if you can't find a high paying job in the midwest you aren't looking or you don't have job skills. Some of the highest paid jobs in the country are in the midwest. again, you're probably gonna have to be in Mpls, Chicago, or Detroit, but high paid jobs are all over.
now clearly there are some jobs where you really do need to be in ONE area (ex: federal govt worker living in the DC area, tech startup in Silicon Valley, Trader working in NYC) but many other jobs can be found all over.
at one time I too believed that you could only get high paying jobs on the coasts... and then I actually started doing job searches. when we moved to the midwest my salary went UP (doctor) and wifey's went UP as well, compared to SF. COL went down.
I'll bet most of you could also do very well in the midwest, unless you don't think you can make any money working for places like Medtronic, Wells Fargo, United Health Group, Best Buy, Target, 3M, the Carlson Companies, Travelers, Ameriprize, Accenture, Deloitte, Adobe, United Air, Northwest,Allstate insurance, Chicago Board of Trade, Hyatt, to name a few.
If Ladera Ranch is in/near Ladera Heights then this is just another example of a real estate area that "gentrified" before its time. Back in 1997, the guy in our office who lived there basically said it was the hood. You can put nice houses in the hood, but you can't take the hood out because of nice houses.
Or something to that effect.
KNOW YOUR LOCATION!
I've lived in Phoenix, Milwaukee, Boston, Colorado, Los Angeles and the Bay Area.
The SF Bay Area kicks all other areas to the curb in so many ways:
- general level of intellect
- cultural diversity
- entrepreneurial spirit (even the crazies get VC $'s here)
- weather (although Santa Monica prob gets the edge here)
- jobs (I'm making way more than I could in those other cities and so are a lot of other people)
- job options (there are 200 - 500 companies I could work for in a heartbeat here, nowhere else comes close)
- adventure sports (kite surfing by date and skiing 4 hours later)
- outdoors (4 hours from Tahoe, 5 from the Lost Coast, Redwoods hiking, mountain biking Mt. Tam)
- healthy food (bay area owns seafood, multi-ethnic and organic cuisine -- OWN it) (okay, fine, NYC owns multi-ethnic and may actually have more 5-stars)
- entertainment (opera, ballet, live music, raves, techno-industrialist artist communities [see: The Crucible], pro sports, amateur sports [hawaiian paddling anyone?]).
- Bay to breakers (you know who you are)
I could go on, but my point is that when it comes to optimal lifestyle, I (and a lot of other people) have decided that the Bay Area is THE place to be. It has, does and will command a premium to other areas (as most california coastal communities do).
(As long as the moronic democrats that run the government here don't screw everything up. Hi Vallejo!)
Ladera Ranch is not near Ladera Heights.
It's a master-planned community, social engineering experiment of a sort to make an ideal suburban town with a small community feel. Imagine Stepford full of touchy-feely Californians loaded with option ARMs.
"So, I'm skeptical of the opening bids being close to a price that would be accepted."
If nobody buys the house at the price that would be accepted, is that really a price?
--
Many towns can use signs: Welcome to Foreclosureville!
Jas
YtL -
I agree with most of your points, but just a coupla-two-three comments...
Anony Mouse I disagree with your supposed "merits" of the City by the Bay, and quite frankly wouldn't leave MKE for SFO for triple my salary, but...
hawaiian paddling anyone?
Well, you got me there. I concede that SFO beats everywhere when it comes to leading the planet in coming up with all the new sexual kinks. I haven't even heard of that one yet.
I lived in California for 6 years (Santa Barbara and LA)...and you can keep it.
I laughed how someone above said "but salaries are better here". Ha...yes they are 20% better. Now try and buy a house that is 3 x what it really should cost. Oh and gas that is 5$ a gallon for your 2 hour commute to see the 'culture'.
Not to mention living in a completely run-down, drab desert with a bunch of angry people.
I left and the whole place can go belly up for all I care. California as a great place to live is a pipe dream for anyone who does not live in La Jolla
Mad Max indeed
Hey, I had Largemouth Bass for dinner yesterday. It was quite nice.
Life without sushi bars, Robert Mapplethorpe retrospectives, and groups of "diverse" youths thronging the sidewalks? Quelle horreur!
Tell me: Can "progressives" attain orgasm by contemplating their cultural superiority?
Anony Mouse:
SF Opera is second rate. Only first rate opera in the US is Met, and maybe between first and second rate, Chicago.
It's a good thing there are so many different places to live. That way there's something for everyone.
YtL:
It didn't have to go all the way to the 60s for minorities to be wary of rust belt.
I am among the generation of Asian Americans who grow up watching this movie.
"Who killed Vincent Chin?"
Who Killed Vincent Chin? (1987) - Plot Summary
With the economy going the way it's going, how long before 80s style "Japan bashing" turns into "China bashing?" And I am neither.
Yaar, if you're stuck in the USA and not living within 30 minutes of I-95, you're nowhere baby.
The Mid West is full of meth addicts, if you can't see that you're a speed freak yourself.
Me, I split my money between Jersey and Hong Kong, and spend my time in Monte Carlo and Macau, hanging with my pals from the Trilateral Commission
to Yearning to Learn:
Someone who is looking for COL ignoring the QOL would do the best on a polar station in Antarctica. COL paid by you is zero, and the salary is great. For MidWest I personally would consider the following:
There are more thing, but I'd look what you could say about those.
About property price.
Yes, it sucks when you buy it in Bay Area, but it rocks when you sell it (assuming you kept it for a while, not bought it for speculation and suffered in burble). Note that typical real estate appreciation comes from increasing land value - the building value is depreciating every year. Let's assume the land appreciates 6% a year, and building value deprecates 1% a year. Let's look on a typical Bay Area property:
Land value - 680,000
Improverment value - 260,000
Total value: 940,000
after 1 year:
Land value - 714,000
Improverment value - 257,000
Total value: 971,000
Appreciation: 31K (3.3%)
Now take a look on the same property in a midwest town:
Land value - 110,000
Improverment value - 260,000
Total value: 370,000
after 1 year, using the same appreciation:
Land value - 116,000
Improverment value - 257,000
Total value: 373,000
Appreciation: 3K (0.8%)
Hope the numbers are speaking for themselves. That's one of things you're paying for in Bay Area by having a $4000/month mortgage.
How fun to see the million dollar McHouse dropping in value.
What an ugly pile of Stepford it is, too!
Look at that car port, swollen grotesquely to hold the blob of an SUV or two. Fittingly empty now, in the era of $5/gallon.
Oddly, the carport gives the house the appearance of having these spindly insect legs -- as if the whole thing's about to go scuttling off, a Stucco Dung Beetle in search of moist comforts!
George, you're an idiot. Do you really think California property taxes are the lowest in the land? You do not get around much, do you?
I have not seen anyone crucified lately, neither in the MidWest, nor even the left coast (although it's probably coming to homeschoolers in CA). Does it burn you up so bad to have a nice person just want to talk to you about Jesus? Why does it hurt you to give them a listen? The last person crucified that I know about, George, not counting Saudi Arabia (where all kind of crap goes on), was Jesus himself, and that was 2000 years ago. Oh, Christians didn't do it, BTW (shoot, I hope I didn't spoil the movie for you!)
Good luck with your little "burble" there in the land of fruits and nuts. I think the fruits are losing out to the nuts.
I hope you enjoy your house, the beautiful scenery (no joke there), and your socialist leaders before the impending financial and cultural disaster. Hasta La Vista, amigo. Viva la Neuvo, Nuevo Mexico!
Dave Lincoln, you're exactly the kind of person I would like to never meet, calling everyone idiots who disagree with them. MidWest is full of people like you. It's you who is targeted by my bumper sticker which says "Jesus might love you, but everyone else thinks you're an asshole".
I brought property taxes in CA vs TX as one of examples why the same property in TX has much lower sticker price. You're free to provide the opposide examples if you can.
No, I REALLY do not want to have a nice person to talk to me about Jesus, Allah, Jehova, Perun, Odin or Zeus. This might be a surprise for you, but you would hardly find anyone in the United States who never heard about Jesus, and who doesn't know where to go if they decide to learn more. It doesn't make any sense to listen to them since ALL of them are trying to tell you the same bullshit, and all the evidence they have is an old book full of mistakes and contradictions. No, thanks.
George, I am not from the midwest, but I would not mind living there. I have been all over this great country - that is why I made my comment.
You just spout things out without knowing anything about the subject. That's why I called you and idiot, and I stand by my assesment.
The houses in Texas have much lower prices because there is LOTS OF LAND in Texas! It has nothing to do with the property tax rate. SF and all the bay area now is pretty hemmed in. You all have invited the world there, and there is not any room left. Fine, that's your business, but it is the reason that the basic price of land is high there. That, in turn, gives your local governments lots of money to dick you over with. (i.e. for the same tax rates - millage- they can collect a whole lot more to make new rules to lay down on you).
I would never see your bumper sticker, George, as have not been in the Bay Area in a long time. But, I will tell you that I don't call everyone who disagrees with me an idiot - only people who are indeed idiots. I call em like I see em.
So, who was it who tried to crucify you again? Name names for me.
I can see where all the nuts have gathered, and it is not the midwest, George. Ask not who the nutcracker comes for, it comes for you.
Dave Lincoln,
Sorry dude, it looks like you have problems with basic reading skills. Where did I say that the houses in Texas have much lower prices BECAUSE of property tax? If you move your eyes away from your Jesus, and actually read what I wrote, you'll probably see it clear:
For MidWest I personally would consider the following...
...which basically means you pay the same property tax in TX for the property three times cheaper than in CA. Why did you read it as the only reason the prices in TX are much lower, I have no idea. If I were you, I'd probably say you need to sober up and stop smoking crack before writing a reply, but since I'm not such an impolite selfish asshole, I'll only say that your opinion is biased and ungrounded.
You can promote yourself any way you want - your actions speak much louder than your self-appraisal. You seems to be no different than Middle Age christians who "spread the word about Jesus" through the swords. I really appreciate you haven't been in Bay Area for a long time - please don't come back. You do fine in the place all nuts have gathered; stay there.
Hey George, what does this mean: "I brought property taxes in CA vs TX as one of examples why the same property in TX has much lower sticker price."?
"Where did I say that the houses in Texas have much lower prices BECAUSE of property tax?" Right there, in the line I quote above.
See, George, I can comprehend the meaning of your writing, and that is what makes me think you are an idiot. You can't go recinding your post, as it is clearly visible just 4 or 5 posts above for both of us to see.
I don't know why you have such animosity to someone who even mentions Jesus - I did not say I was a Christian even. You seem to have a very high fear toward anything unknown, not just regions of the country, but people different from your kind (meaning, of course, the fruits and the nuts).
I'll come back to the Bay Area anytime I please, but I don't expect you'd go anywhere east of Berkeley because you could indeed, run into people who are not your kind, and who for some reason, scare you. Oh, and the humidity is too high too. Scared of humidity, too? Sometimes you just gotta sweat it out.
Dave Lincoln,
Dude, not only you'd use some attitude, you'd also use some brain power as well.
Since it's considered good to take care of mentally disabled, I'd step down and explain it to you once more. "One of the examples" does not mean "the only reason". It means "one of the reasons". A high property tax eats up the property investment value, putting a pressure on how high/how fast the price could go up. You could compare the appreciation rates in TX and AZ (Phoenix, for example) - note that both places have a lot of land to build housing.
So next time you want to see an idiot, please check the nearby mirror. And seeing a lot of nuts, I'm not scared of them. I just don't want to live close to them.
Right George, way to backtrack; it sounds like a certain presidential candidate I could name.
So, "one of the reasons" that Texas properties cost less is that the taxes are higher? I seriously doubt it's a big factor at all, compared to Texas has a LOT OF LAND! I already said that to you. That is the main reason - the Bay Area is hemmed by geography.
Do the numbers here: Let's say your prop. tax in a certain area in TX is 1 whole %-point higher than it is in your area in CA. Yet, even a good interest rate is around 6%. So, for a given loan amount, that property tax difference would be only 16 - 17% of the difference in your payments on interest (probably insurance too, but I'm not sure on that). It would be different if one puts a large down-payment down, but then opportunity costs come into play too.
So, the property tax difference is not any major reason that the properties in TX cost much less than in CA. How about that?
George, you need to get around. You have a total lack of diversity of ideas over there in your area. You should get out more and see the country to get rid of your small-mindedness. It's so obvious to me.