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I've always wanted to be first!
"Whipping boy" would tend to indicate undeserved punishment. Maybe they should be spun as victims of unscrupulous borrowers.
I say the more the merrier. Plenty of misery to be had on the end of our pitchforks and torches.
Could we have a trifecta this week?
Indy
Le
Wac
If we lend, it's predatory. If we don't lend, it's discriminatory.
Gees, the game is cooked, we can never have it right...
I'm calling a bottom in the housing market -- when Sen. Schumer and his buddy Dodd and Paulson and Bernanke are behind bars and of course Bush tries for war crimes (after leaving office) and actually the list goes on with various corrupt bastards that will be connected to this bottoming event, also known as either a civil war or revolution...
I'm sure there must be some sort of 'age-based' anti-discrimination clause, but really, is it common sense to give a multi-year construction loan to an 80-year old?
I don't know, but I suspect there are anti-age discrimination clauses, but if it were my money and I was the banker, I'd look pretty hard at how an eighty year old is going to service a construction mortgage?
How are issues of age related loan origination? Is it allowable to take those types of considerations into account or is it purely an 'income' issue.
Mr. Butler had not idea his income was reported incorrectly? And he had no idea what the payments were? Or how much he was borrowing? And that he could not afford to pay it back?
I called indymac in january 2007 to get a quote for a 30 yr fixed, they came back with some ridiculously low monthly payment and interest rate, and i asked again if this was for a 30 yr fixed.
They said, 'Oh, no that was for a I/O ARM, thats what would be best for your situation." I laughed and said whatever and hung up.
I wonder how many fell for that little trick!
If we lend, it's predatory. If we don't lend, it's discriminatory.
oh bankcop please. you're going to have to do better than that. This is neither, it's gross negligence.
What, NO ONE checked the SS max? No one went through this file? THAT's the issue here. Banks didn't because they pawned the bad loans off to others, so they maximized their own take.
But the big question I have is, is this criminal? Because, frankly, until a whole bunch of financial execs are in orange jumpsuits with their wealth disgorged to help the deficit, i think this will just repeat in another form.
My favorite IndyMac solicitation was the low low fixed mortgage rates. Yeah, roll in the upfront costs and fixed for the first 5 years. Honest they think that is a fixed loan. Good riddance.
And now, lest you think I'm just picking on the big guys here, I agree with phil...this guy didn't know what his payment was and that he couldn't afford it based on his income? What? This guy sat in a room with a lawyer, saw the disclosure with the payment on it, the terms, and signed it?
He should be prosecuted for lying also because there is no way the loan docs could have reflected reality when he signed that disclosure.
IMB's commercial unit... DONE. I wonder if it was their choice, or FDIC directive ?
http://ml-implode.com/info/iclc-notice.pdf
The CRL claims to have "substantial evidence that IndyMac routinely made loans with little regard for their customers' ability to repay the loans."
And then took them to the San Fran FHLB, which routinely made loans to IndyMac with little regard to their (lack of) underwriting standards...
But hey, what's the worst that could happen?
well said, ipodius.
Orange suits might not it done this time though. I'm holding out for...
The Reign of Terror -- The Sequel
My hometown, buying up foreclosures for affordable housing projects
Fairfax Will Buy Foreclosed Properties - washingtonpost.com
as i often say at work, bosch, it's really too bad we can't put people's heads on poles anymore. If I could just point outside my office and say "that's the last guy that did X" it would leave a lasting impression.
These guys, and no one in recent memory deserves it more, should have their heads on poles. A few financial CEOs and hedgies and you wanch the talent pool change.
"Move aside Countrywide, it looks like Indymac is the new whipping boy."
Who bought some out of the money puts on CFC speculating they wont do the deal Tuesday?
Crime pays you guys, crime pays... so don't hold your breath waiting for the head criminals to end up in prison... just remember they make the rules... but we still aren't smart enough to stop playing the game...
I grew up in Fairfax too (Springfield). Just recently visited and took my son to the mall, what a dump! Fairfax to be renamed Knifecatcher County?
Hmmm.... has anyone ever seen CR and Chuck Schumer in the room at the same time?
Petey Wheatstraw, yes, whipping boy was a poor choice ... because it appears they do deserve some of the punishment.
Oh well ...
Best to all.
YSLP...ha Springfield Mall...we used to make fun of that mall when we were kids... it was always dicier over there... but it was an easier neighborhood to buy beer with a fake ID.
Fairfax will end up just fine (ah, I miss the green of the east coast)...it's a pretty darn nice place overall, just very pricey these days. But both of my parents who want to retire and use the proceeds for retirement can't sell... and when they do, it will be for less than they planned.
I am really just waiting to see some more pictures of people lined up around the block trying to withdraw money. Maybe even a small riot or two.
If this movie doesn't pick up soon i'm going to hit fast-forward.
Hey CR - No problem. I never thought you intended to indicate innocence, but the phrase caught my eye, and I'm obsessive/compulsive.
Don't know about you but I have never been dragged into a bank and forced to sign loan documents for a house I could not afford.
Not saying IndyMac wasn't complicit but the borrower is the originator of the fraud.
Hey, Indy got married in the last installment. Will life follow art?
PS - Offscreen, Ben was holding a shotgun.
The borrower might have committed fraud, but the lender has a fiduciary duty to its shareholders - in addition the legal responsibility to vet the accuracy of the documents they are provided. I'm sure they employ quite a few loan examiners (or whatever title) for this specific purpose. At the very least, the lender suborned fraud.
It's important, when trying to determine if a crime has been committed, to answer two questions:
Who is to say the old boy actually signed the loan docs, IndyMac could have forged that too!
I am not to sure about blame the borrower, they will always push the limit if allowed by the lender.
ipodius
Amen brother; Disgorging should be the word on everyones lips, the DA the Judges.....
How about these banker and brokers do hard labor building affordable housing for the poor?
Were these 30 yr. mortgages? For 80+ yr. olds?
Whoa. Life spans have increased, but not that much.
barely writes:
IMB's commercial unit... DONE. I wonder if it was their choice, or FDIC directive ?
404 Not Found notice.pdf
Holy cow. Closing down commercial?!? They're done. They're the right size bank to close this Thursday. Me and the Mrs. have some money there, but its insured. Now to see how long it takes to get it out.
From whom?
Outsider: If you offer a 30 year mortgage to anyone, you have to offer it to the 80 year olds too. That's just banking law. I have no problem with someone being 80 and cash flow managing with a mortgage in their new estate. My problem is when they give the 80 year old an I/O option ARM they can barely afford and when it resets two years later...
Oh wait. I guess they can just out wait the bank.
Indymac for this Thursday!
Got Popcorn?
Neil
ps
I bet against BoA taking over Countrywide. That's a nightmare waiting to happen. My Wells Fargo friends are cheering on that deal!
Kevin Phillips on the Bush dynasty
LiveLeak.com - Kevin Phillips giving a speach about the Bush Family
from jesses cafe american
Jesse's Café Américain
Wild animals will steal food from those that are physically too weak to defend themselves. In lawless places people use weapons to steal from those who become physically weak. In our sophisticated society, when you become old and mentally weak, someone will use the pen and trickery to take away your property.
IMB is small change. Just you wait! FRE & FNM are the MAIN ATTRACTION when they crumble. Looks like they're a little weak in the knees, since the MIs are all taking a savage beating to their ratings...
RhodesianRidgebackinAZ writes:
My hometown, buying up foreclosures for affordable housing projects
Error - washingtonpost.com? hpid=topnews
Local county government just appropriated $440K for a $3.4MM project to buy homes for lease back to potential homeowners, in just one neighborhood of less than 150 homes.
Sorry above link is old news
So . . . these mysterious "loan docs" . . . do the borrowers retain a copy with their (claimed) income listed on it?
Ok, bullshit,
Maybe I'm different, but when I went through the loan application process, I followed the numbers as we went, and the deal I cut stayed the same, e.g, you apply for a loan amount and then ideas come up, like LTV and then as you negotiate for the house, you come up with an arms length deal which is back by the loan.......the bank is full of shit and this guy is full of shit, because this seems to not have been an issue as the guy moved in and got comfy in 2005 and now, oh my God, the deal isnt right.
I'm sorry, I need to read the pdf, but my first impression is that they both agreed to lie, which is probably a unifying trait of the subprime era, i.e, liar loans require two to tango and they both should share in the pain!
OT to NC Jim from previous thread:
My wife loved Piedmont and still talks about it. They ultimately became part of what is now USAir, which I hate passionately.
Some hate Microsoft, others BofA, I personally detest USAir.
The points on their credit cards can now be redeemed for carryon luggage and inflight snacks.
Heh, heh.
The Reign of Terror -- The Sequel
Oh, I am, too, believe me. Mostly for what comes after, tho. I have an option on a white horse and everything! :^)
From the pdf:
IndyMac and most home lenders were not greedy and stupid, IndyMac CEO Perry told
shareholders in February. Most of us believe that innovative home lending served a legitimate
economic and social purpose, allowing many US consumers to be able to achieve the American
dream of homeownership . . . and we still do.12
Perry said a good part of the blame for the companys problems lies with forces outside its
control, including the fall in prices of mortgage-backed investments packaged by Wall Street and
the huge decline in home prices and home sales.13
Ok, I have to stop right here, because this guy is symbolic of the retards that run crooked corporations. He blames Wall Street for pressure on the way up, but what about the pressure on the way down, for being a crooked bastard? If this retard would have played by the rules and not screwed around, his stock value would be a bit higher right now, and he might have a little credibility, versus trying to look for someone else to balm. If you feed a culture of greed and corruption and collusion and then get caught, you end up having your corporation burned to the ground. The buck stops with this moron because he ran the show and wanted higher compensation on-the-fly versus waiting longer term for stock performance to come from long term interest. This dude can eat feces! Hang him!
Next..
I was really busy doing some billing but I have CNBC on in the background, and I thought I heard very casually mentioned that there's 80 banks due to go under very soon. Eighty. The money honey just replied, well "I guess they'll have to cut dividends, huh."
It was really humorous. You can't do anything but laugh at this point.
I heard very casually mentioned that there's 80 banks due to go under very soon.
They need to innovate. Soon.
Re: It didnt have to happen this way. Federal authorities including the Office of Thrift Supervision
should have kept a closer eye on IndyMacs business model and practices. They had leverage
over IndyMac, given that the company operated as a federally-chartered thrift supported by
deposit insurance and borrowings from the FHLB system.
The conclusion in this pdf is very weak and fails to develop evidence one way or another, but Perry smells like a very fat rat, highly corrupted, highly retardified, highly connected to the money flow and guilty beyond a doubt.
Hang him again!
I take it that everyboby in this comment section thinks indymac could be toast by as early as tomorrow morning?
Isn't Indymac a spin-off of Countrywide? Why should anyone expect different culture?
OT - How messed up is it that pre-holiday NFP Thursday (plus ISM services plus initial claims) occurs the same day as ECB interest rate decision and Trichet's speech?! How will anyone know what the markets are responding to, however it is they respond?
OT (addendum) - Sorry, btw. Forgot to mention they're all released @ 8:30 EST.
You really have to be sorry for a bank that is forced to make no-doc loans. Those poor people are sharks! If it weren't for those borrowers who had bad numbers on their loan docs, everything would still be great! Too bad those innocent bankers were forced to accept all those bad numbers and pretend that everything was fine, just so they could pass the loan along to the next batch of suckers. How could they have known it would end badly?
I'm sure this only a few of the bad apples done by the little people before we fired them for casting this bad PR on US. It'll all be better in the morning.
jo6pac
Everything is on schedule, please move along.
auction pro writes:
I take it that everyboby in this comment section thinks indymac could be toast by as early as tomorrow morning?
Unless there is a real run on the bank the nice people with the seizure order will be at the doors 5 minutes after closing Pacific time, 5;05/6;05 Thursday July 3rd. Oh boy! that means triple time holiday pay adding to the Federal deficit.
And if there is a run, CNBC will characterize it as the IndyMac 500.
So, who gets handed the keys to IMB's vaults and greased with a fat check to assume their steamin' pile o'dung assets (liabilities) ? WFC ?
IndyMac is nothing. Der Spiegel says: IMF to Audit Fed.
"Officials with the International Monetary Fund (IMF) have informed Bernanke about a plan that would have been unheard-of in the past: a general examination of the US financial system. The IMF's board of directors has ruled that a so-called Financial Sector Assessment Program (FSAP) is to be carried out in the United States. It is nothing less than an X-ray of the entire US financial system.
"As part of the assessment, the Fed, the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC), the major investment banks, mortgage banks and hedge funds will be asked to hand over confidential documents to the IMF team. They will be required to answer the questions they are asked during interviews. Their databases will be subjected to so-called stress tests -- worst-case scenarios designed to simulate the broader effects of failures of other major financial institutions or a continuing decline of the dollar.
". . . Roughly two-thirds of IMF members--but never the United States--have already endured this painful procedure."
They will be finished in 2010.
(via George Ure)
YLSP I grew up in Fairfax too (Springfield). Just recently visited and took my son to the mall, what a dump! Fairfax to be renamed Knifecatcher County?
How did Springfield end up being such a dump? I get the feeling people expected to turn into Vienna at some point during the bubble due to the huge increase in prices. I've only been down there a few times, but it feels like any old lower middle class suburb that has run its course.
Their databases will be subjected to so-called stress tests -- worst-case scenarios designed to simulate the broader effects of failures of other major financial institutions or a continuing decline of the dollar.
Wouldn't it be cheaper to just read CR for the next year? I mean stress test? I doubt if their worst case scenario is going to be so much worse than the reality.
How did Springfield end up being such a dump?
I blame the Simpsons. And that fast talking guy who convinced them to build a monorail. They should have listened to Rob Dawg about mass transit.
This article highlights just as much fraud, if not more, by the brokers. Who's more guilty? The one committing the act, or the one who turns a blind eye?
The article makes no indication that these borrowers did anything wrong much less stupid. The 85 year old man with dementia ALREADY had a 360k loan with a fixed rate of 5.9 %. That's BEFORE IMB gave him the option ARM. How the hell was he making that payment!
IMB was also selling most of their suff to wall street firms. The loans however shitty, WERE APPROVED by the end investor, not just IMB. To blame one mortgage lender is just plain folly. IMB may have failed to perform morally for the homedebtor, but wall street fooled us all.
California is about to outdo Springfield. Proposition 1 is on the ballot authorizing $10b new debt to pay 1/4th the cost of a high speed choo-choo twixt LA and Oakland. 21st Century pink ponies.
by the way....
IMB was selling most of their option arms to Deutsche Bank, and then LEH
Is it not fraud if both parties agree to the lie? I have no problem with banks providing loans to people based on knowingly false information.
I do have a problem with taxpayer resources being used to bail them out after the deal falls through.
Let them all eat cake.....all of them.
To many memories, following my Mom around the Fairfax mall and Tysons Corner. I truly hated Lord & Taylor.
Herndon was a great place 20 years ago. I am sure it is as depressing as SoCal is right now.
NEIL wrote:
"I bet against BoA taking over Countrywide. That's a nightmare waiting to happen."
It's a sure thing: everyone saw Ben hand that large envelope to the groom-to-be after the engagement.
2010?the us banking system is not wait until then for some stuffy report.
For proper drainage of a bank in the northern hemisphere such as IMB, depositors will be instructed to form a counterclockwise line around the bank.
Officials with the International Monetary Fund (IMF) have informed Bernanke about a plan that would have been unheard-of in the past... and so on and so on...
T'aint gonna happen. Bernanke will refuse to comply for National Security Reasons.
ot to change the subject,but deflation seems to have set in at the local auction house.Im paying 70% less for merchandise than 3 mos ago.profit margins are way up in my bus, even though sales are down.I could see housing prices coming down much futher.
CNBC will characterize it as the IndyMac 500
That's the IndyMac 400 now.
$100 million was already withdrawn.
In 11 hours and 49 minutes they'll be down another Jumbo CDs worth in deposits. I'll be speaking in loud tones, "Oh good I got here in time, and you still have some left."
Dawg, maybe you should gather up a sleeping bag and a lawn chair
RIGHT NOW
and secure a choice place in line; preferably first!
And don't forget an empty jug.
Broad Says U.S. Economy in Worst Recession Since World War II
"Billionaire investor Eli Broad said the U.S. economy is in the `worst period' of his adult life as a housing market recovery remains ``several years'' away."
Broad Says Economy in Worst Slump Since World War II (Update2) - Bloomberg.com
Herndon was a great place 20 years ago. I am sure it is as depressing as SoCal is right now
There are still nice parts of Herndon, mostly south of the Toll Road. Foreclosures are gobbling up the northern, older part - 40%+ off 2006 prices in some cases.
-Jaso
Maybe Indy and Downey can go out together. The "Real Bank Foreclosures of Orange County".
Re: Perry said a good part of the blame for the companys problems lies with forces outside its
control, including the fall in prices of mortgage-backed investments packaged by Wall Street and
the huge decline in home prices and home sales.13
Re: American psychologist Abraham Maslow described two kinds of esteem needs the need for respect from others and the need for self-respect.[citation needed] Respect from others entails recognition, acceptance, status, and appreciation.[citation needed] Without the fulfillment of these needs, Maslow suggests, an individual feels discouraged, weak and inferior
I lived in Herndon 2000-2004 and if you want to understand the harm in illegal immigration it is a good place to start.
If there is a collapse they will fence of the entire area north of the toll road.
Mr. Potter: Why, the whole town knows you've been giving money to Violet Bick.
George Bailey: You sit around here and you spin your little webs and you think the whole world revolves around you and your money. Well, it doesn't, Mr. Potter. In the whole vast configuration of things, I'd say you were nothing but a scurvy little spider. And...
[turning to his aide]
Our mobile unit will be serving your alcoholic needs during the night at Indy Mac. And in another note, the Chicago Tribune Editoral Page called for disposing of the Second Amendment. I challenge them to have their children spend the weekend in the projects alone. What a bunch of Liberal idiots. I cancelled my subscription three years ago.
Re: Springfield being a dump
Mostly talking about the mall... we are used to the posh malls they have in Southern California, and even though they are posh they don't nickel and dime you for stuff like strollers and at least provide a decent play area for kids. Yup, sound like a typical spoiled brat, but there's nothing wrong with enjoying those free mall amenities...
My general impression of the area was that I like the neighborhoods, especially since I've lived in direct grid San Fernando Valley. Okay, so maybe it is nice that it doesn't take me 25+ minutes to get to a freeway, but the neighborhoods aren't as cookie cutter... just looking at Google Maps makes me want to scream...
Los Angeles / San Fernando / Orange County looks like it was designed by a two year old playing Sim City!
Do we really need all of our sprawling urban cities to look like Sim City replicas? I mean I understand Los Angeles is a city, but the San Fernando Valley is just a suburb... why is it designed like a Sim City clone!?! I don't think I like living in such a Sim City suburb/town... maybe its just an east coast/west coast planning thing... but it irks me...
Indymac is my lender, I have a 30 year fixed with them. Guess who calls me a month ago and offers to get me "cash out" at a "lower payment" --- yeah, Indymac decided it would be a good idea for me to get out of my 5.65 30-yr fixed interest rate to some variable loan so I can use the cash out money to "fix up" (my now depreciating) house -- or go on vacation. Idiots never learn.
peAkcredit -- ha ha
But seriously, the fdic has an FAQ (which I notice has been updated in just the last two weeks from when I last looked at it after I found both of our banks on a death-watch list). FDIC promises deposits on failed banks to be paid out in days, and since they are in the posse of the guys that own the printing presses, I tend to believe them. Seems silly to panic and pull deposits out, or maybe I've seen A Wonderful Life too many times.
if you are loaning the money, don't you think you should care more that the person you are loaning to can pay it back?
Down with margin accounts.
The McCain Residences: A Google Earth Tour
YouTube -
IndyMac denies that it's close to collapse (July 1)
Depositors have been pulling money from the Pasadena-based thrift, whose share price is down 90% this year.
IndyMac denies it is near failure - Los Angeles Times
And further on Countrywide, it is apparently taking them over 12 weeks to approve short sales here in So. Cal. They claim they're understaffed.