sad stuff - this is mans way no the word. Two are far apart course so is the world. I am seeing this stuff also up here in washington state...just had a friend say F... it.Could not sell it and had to move and they finally said here you go and walked.
His other interests include: Business Development & Entrepreneurship, Helping people create wealth, Teaching Christian Business Principles, Reading on personal, business & financial development, Song writing & musical composition, Patriotic History and Golf, as Well aS cReative Capitalization.
"Christian Business Principles" apparently didn't have a unit on "rendering unto Caesar."
I particularly liked the part where he remarks that he had never heard of a deed-in-lieu. Why the hell would he volunteer that bit?
I fully expect that Mr. Prang is about to reinvent himself as a "foreclosure prevention counselor." His schtick will be all about how if he'd known all this stuff when his Time of Tribulation occurred, he'd have avoided FC. So he is called to witness about DILs to other sinners in trouble, for only $99.99 COD for the videotape.
Carteret Mortgage is looking for Producing Loan Officers with 2 years or more in the mortgage business. We are NOT looking for individuals wanting a career change or loan officers with no experience - - that is why we are among the HIGHEST Paid in the industry!!!!!
And he says if he had sufficient funds, he wouldn't pour them into buying a house now. "Why take the chance to buy something that a year from now could be worth a lot less?"
Tanta, this guy could be the brother of a former boss of mine. Let's just say he didn't live his "values" either. The irony is so strong it's positively painful. Ugh.
Whatever happened to a sense of personal responsibility? He implies that he is a devout Christian, and yet he walked away from his commitment. He does not want the government to step in, but of course screwing the banks that gave you loans is just fine.
Do not get me wrong. I am sympathetic with those cannot make payments, and I do not pardon lenders from their responsibilities, but THIS GUYS HAS THE MONEY TO BE CURRENT. He made a bad investment and decided to lay his decision off on the banks. This is as bad as DKing a stock broker when you time the market wrong. It is analagous to stealing.
"Prang" means to crash in English, if I recall... and that sums this clown up.
No matter - the Fed will keep cutting rates, the dollar will tank, and the stock market will hit new highs even as the nation is overrun with empty houses, lost jobs, and run-away inflation. Walkaways are just a sign fo the times, a time where no contracts are valid, everyone is looking for the next scam, and the only crime is being caught.
Now I understand why there's so much talking up of walkaways to the press -- the anecdotes are conveniently located in the mortgage biz's own pockets!
I have more or less come to the conclusion that if you subtract out the relitters and mortgage borkers from the "walkaway" demographic it shrinks to about 1% of troubled borrowers.
That said, I suspect RacerX is right. I'd be shocked if this guy has a net worth of 47 cents. But then I'm skeptical of a lot of stories I hear about folks who "can afford" their mortgages but just choose to walk.
...if you subtract out the relitters and mortgage borkers from the "walkaway" demographic it shrinks to about 1% of troubled borrowers
I don't know what the % is but there was a substantial amount of speculation among these parties.
Note that if a broker screws up their credit it's much less likely that they'll be approved by a lender. Although that may seem obvious to most people it's just now starting to hit some brokers (and by extention the AEs)
Wow, what a great morning tea-reading post! Like you tanta, I'm always skeptical of people that say they can pay but don't...more bravado/denial methinks. It's easier to say, psychologically, that you "walked away" than it is to admit you totally screwed up and were over your head.
The delicious bit is, of course, the personal background. I'm always amazed at these people who are supposed to be "christian" and yet are completely blind to the hypocrisy their actions indicate. WWJD indeed! Although I have to say that when I read "home school" I immediately know what I'm dealing with...generally some right-wing fringe nutter with a Q04 sticker still on the back of the SUV alongside that yellow ribbon (made in china) which, of course, they don't get the irony of either.
Thank you Tanta - I needed that this morning. Lord knows there are a lot of Prang's out there in fly-over. Man I know too many of them - nice enough people really when you meet them - but some of the wrongest folks I have ever met. Serially catastrophically wrong too.
He'll move on and be wrong about something else, somewhere else again soon.
Its a good thing God loves him - everybody should be loved by somebody.
There is so much about this story that just reeks but the Yahoo home page is not going to make you much happier, Tanta. Story of Jose Canseco letting his home go. I can not do the linky thing but it is the home page. It just won't help any of this nonsense to fade away.
The big question for me is how does Carteret respond to this. Remember that Prang is operating under Carteret's license. Will Carteret police themselves or will they permit their LOs to operate in a fashion that is completely irresponsible. Will lenders realize how fraught with risk this type of business model is and sever their ties to these types of brokers?
Ummm, if the mood is euphoric, jobs only declined by a mere 20,000 and there is no recesssion, why did the Fed need to do this?
Fed Raises Cash-Loan Auctions by 50% to $75 Billion...By Scott Lanman...May 2 (Bloomberg) -- The Federal Reserve expanded its cash- loan auctions for banks by 50 percent to $75 billion each after higher borrowing costs blunted the impact of the four-month-old program.
The Fed also increased its currency-swap arrangement with the European Central Bank by two-thirds to $50 billion and doubled the amount with the Swiss National Bank to $12 billion, extending their terms through January. In a third move, the Fed will accept other AAA/Aaa-rated asset-backed securities as collateral for Treasury loans through another program.
Although I have to say that when I read "home school" I immediately know what I'm dealing with...generally some right-wing fringe nutter with a Q04 sticker still on the back of the SUV alongside that yellow ribbon (made in china) which, of course, they don't get the irony of either.
ipodius | 05.02.08 - 8:30 am | #
Unfortunately in about 3/4s of the US this guy isn't 'fringe' - he's 'center'. The people reading this forum are the 'fringe'. Believe me - they don't build all those mega-churches based on tithing from econo-bloggers.
And they are out there, maybe not as many along the banks of Charles as say the banks of the Ohio but they are out there... lotsa them.
Hmmm. Employment down, wage growth rapidly decelerating, inflation accelerating - apparently the elimination of the middle class is very bullish for stocks. Excuse me while I step outside to wretch.
If they're building them based on tithing from mortgage brokers, the bottom's about to fall out of Nonresidential Religious Construction Starts . . .
Tanta | 05.02.08 - 8:54 am | #
I was thinking the EXACT same thing. Add construction sub-contractors, yard maint. service providers... and all the other 'home businesses'. All will take a hit will eventually put a good sized dent in the Religion Industrial Complex - at least on the balance sheet side of things (can't speak for the net asset value of a 'saved soul' - have to wait for the analyst's report on that one)...
There may be some good come out of this mortgage mess yet.
Borrowing money to purchase assets (also used as collateral) that appreciate and earn a rate of return is not the kind of borrowing that the bible is warning about. If someone can borrow and create more wealth with the borrowed money, he is being a better steward of Gods money. Remember its all Gods money, what the lender gave to the borrower was Gods money, not the lenders.
Since the borrower now has the money working for him and not him for the money, who now becomes the ruler? The borrower does, and the lender and his/the lenders money are working for him/the borrower.
Imagine if both the lender and the borrower are Christians and good stewards. The lender earns a return on Gods money that he lent to the borrower and gives a tithe back to God. The borrower takes Gods money that was lent to him and creates more wealth with it and gives a tithe back to God. Both are serving God and not each other.
Three things happen:
1. Gods money is increased by both the lender and the borrower (parable of the talents)
2. More money is given to put towards Gods kingdom purposes
3. They both hear, well done good and faithful servant!
Funny. I'm not hearing the "well done good and faithful servant!" part. Perhaps I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.
Adding insult to irony, from looking at the satellite photo the Foxwood Forest development appears to have bulldozed every tree in sight into oblivion, sort of like the intro to the tv show Weeds.
Turbo said: "Hmmm. Employment down, wage growth rapidly decelerating, inflation accelerating - apparently the elimination of the middle class is very bullish for stocks...."
Thanks for that last piece - Tanta | 05.02.08 - 9:00 am | # - I knew the guy had to be a charismatic... explains it all.
As my priest would say... 'Yup God wants us to follow Jesus and make lotsa money - man did you see HIS portfolio... off the charts!' My kids loved the old codger - he was pretty snarky.
There was a 'faith-based' realty company that went bankrupt about a year ago. They even had a staff 'religious counselor', along with daily prayer meetings. Anyone remember where that was?
I am a man of faith, generally, but when you meet someone loudly proclaiming their holy principles, make sure your wallet is safe.
As an older Native American type, we have lots of stories about this.
Wherever Christianity is, there's a brand of it that tends to reflect the values of the surrounding culture, rather than vice-versa.
Mr. Prang's version is very typical of the American consumer culture: God's there to help you get what you want, not make unreasonable demands that you examine the wisdom of your ways.
Unfortunately, Mr. Prang's Big-Box Christianity is the dominant form in the U.S. right now. Given some hard times, that may change.
Imagine if both the lender and the borrower are Christians and good stewards. The lender earns a return on Gods money that he lent to the borrower and gives a tithe back to God. The borrower takes Gods money that was lent to him and creates more wealth with it and gives a tithe back to God. Both are serving God and not each other.
Now imagine stiffing God for the loan(s).
Does everlasting damnation or the eternal fires of Hell come to mind?
I know I'd have some trepidations about F-ing around with God's money. But that's just this responsibility thingie I have.
"some right-wing fringe nutter with a Q04 sticker still on the back of the SUV alongside that yellow ribbon (made in china) which, of course, they don't get the irony of either."
ipodius | 05.02.08 - 8:30 am | #
Wow - that's kind of a broad brush, Ipodius, don't you think?
I know several homeschoolers, and only one comes close to that 'profile'.
My perception is that homeschooling (which we don't do - my wife and I are professionals and didn't want to give up/lose track on our careers) is fast-growing, and includes people who want to spend more time with their kids, people who don't like constant threat/danger to their kids (my daughter's school had a lockdown recently due to a stabbing), people who believe they can educate their kids better than the unmotivated time-servers dozing at the front of the classroom (hint: one of my daughter's teachers this year has not 'taught' the subject YET and the year is almost over. Classes are a mix of opinion about current events - which is not the class subject, movies, and tests on the book), people who do not appreciate the solid dose of leftism/PC that accompanies much teaching (if we had ever adopted HS, it would be for this and the previous two reasons), and finally the "religious nutters". And I guess that is a broad group as one of the "religious nutters" is Jewish.
Oops, sorry, Ipodius, I conflated your comments about hypocritical Christians and right wing nutters. My apologies on that, but the rest of my comment still stands -- people home school for many reasons beyond "nuttership", of either right-wing or religious motivation.
Unless a religion is in it's formative stage, it is just words. This has been known for centuries. There is even a term for it 'dead dogma', meaning someone talks the talk, but is clueless about the walk.
As for the Mega Churches, look for good deals in large structures and large parking lots. Christianity has crashed among the young and those structures were built assuming cheap gas and consumers of religious with money to spend. They will be hit with declining incomes and increasing demands as members change from tithing to asking for alms.
As the press keeps on flogging walk a ways, it will happen. Just putting the idea out there will influence folks that never thought of it. It will make it socially acceptable to the marginal folks and as the numbers and publicity increase, it will increase.
Simple rule of thumb, if you are doing business with someone, the more they mention God or Jesus, the more careful you have to be. The probability you are dealing with a fraud is directly proportional to the number of times Jesus is invoked.
I wonder how his attitudes toward usury square with his YSP.
You wonder?
YSP = Yaweh's Special Plan
It's the Lord's money, doin' the Lord's work. By raising the borrower's interest rate, he's simply helping the borrower to pay more of God's money to God's lenders who will use it to pay God's tithes. God needs tithes because He gave all his money to the lenders so they could manage His investments for Him. I think.
"mp writes:
Conjure and I need to learn more about Big Box Christianity."
These people are the godfathers of big-box Christianity. They came up with the formula through market research and marketed it around the country. There are 12,000 churches in the franchise
Wow - that's kind of a broad brush, Ipodius, don't you think?
Ummm no. I'm a very religious guy, actually, if you knew me in person. But I take a dim view of people that use religious texts to justify their own bad behavior by twisting what it says to back up their point of view, or try to brainwash their children in some misguided attempt to "school" them. Just what we need, more intolerant, hypocrites in the world.
Business is business, and whatever God may be, I'm sure he/she is completely unconcerned about money. If you make some, keep your mouth shut and do some good with it. Be like Gates or Buffett and start foundations to give it all away. But don't pretend that you're doing "god's work" or that you have any idea of what "god's work" is. Because that's the ultimate blasphemy in my book...pretending to know what the ultimate force of the universe wants.
His curriculum was unique, not taught in schools: mathematics, history, literature, finance, politics, economics, negotiation.
Oh my! You can't teach those things! How would you satisfy "no child left behind" and have them pass the state tests so they can graduate? No no no! You have to do what a friend of mine was told recently by his high school principal...let me see if I can quote: "don't correct grammar or syntax in your class because they kids don't need any of that to pass the MCAS (the MA state graduation exam)". Ipodius wonders why his college students can't write a paragraph to save their souls.
Maybe I'll rethink that whole home schooling thing. Oh and I'd teach religion all right. All of them. Just so that kids can understand how Bronze Age tribal conceptions of the world have no place in the 21st century.
Mortgage brokers know how to game the system. Currently I rent from one such hombre. He owes over $4 million on 4 "investments" that have a current market value of $2.5 million. He's been underwater from the get-go (not to mention earning zero selling mortgates for a while now) and even still was able to get a 300k home equity loan from WaMu THIS DECEMBER. By the way, all of his debt payments are currently "adjusting" upward.
Now, as for some of you clowns caricaturizing homeschooling, well, your own "education" fails you - as it was in fact designed to do so.
I live in Albemarle county and would note for you all that the RE conditions here lag in comparison to other markets. This particular story (which I read in yesterday's Hook) is kind of a canary in the coal mine. I suspect that much more distressed real estate will come onto the market soon, and that the flood will overwhelm the ability of the local RE establishment to control information.
There are anecdotes of people locally having stopped paying on their car notes. This is what happens when you frontload an economy.
If you have money, get ready to buy big chunks of beautiful land here next year (and a half) for cheap. Also, people are going belly up in Keswick- fair more pedigreed than Foxwood.
Regarding the subtext of the Prosperity Gospel theology(?), utter horse puckey. Emblematic of the smothering ignorance which mars American culture.
"Now, as for some of you clowns caricaturizing homeschooling, well, your own "education" fails you - as it was in fact designed to do so."
Yeah, our schools are designed to make kids dumber, right ? See, this is the type of thing that makes HSer's look like nuts. They claim that opting out of the system is the only way, and it's downright ignorant. Ever heard of a school board meeting ? Meeting with the teachers ? Nah, you'd rather take your ball and go home instead of actually improving the system.
We love our public schools here in western NY. They're pretty good quality, and they teach some pretty advanced courses.
Regarding Prang's Theoeconomics, I've been very fond of Herzog's take on the Parable of the Talents / Parable of the Minas ever since I've heard it. Parallels H-Sphere
(from the link) Now, trading talents was not something that happened the way we trade stocks these days. No, trading talents meant acquiring land from people. It meant calling in peoples debts. It meant foreclosing on land. It meant increasing the power of farmland from the peasants to the rich landowner. No one ever questions this practice in stewardship sermons on the parable of the talents, but there it is.
Yossarian--the christian tradition itself also has stories about this. For instance, Matthew chapter 6.
And I'm surprised Matthew 25's parable of the talents does not feature prominently on the website. If I were going to run a "Christian business" that would sure be my first line of defense.
Anyhow, I like the thought of the Church of the Econo-Blogger. Or perhaps just a patron saint, Our Lady of Eternal Econo-blogging?
Although I have to say that when I read "home school" I immediately know what I'm dealing with...generally some right-wing fringe nutter with a Q04 sticker still on the back of the SUV alongside that yellow ribbon (made in china) which, of course, they don't get the irony of either.
Homeschoolers come in all shapes and sizes: Christian, left and right wing; Muslim; Hindu; Atheist; Socialist; moderate doctor/lawyer types; etc. They homeschool for a variety of reasons: more control and the ability to tailor curriculum to their kids' needs; safety; avoiding negative socialization; avoiding 'labeling'; pacing the learning to their kids' needs; for philosophical reasons - e.g. not taking a government handout.
Your comment epitomizes 'prejudice', that it, judging without knowledge. Get to know some homeschoolers; you might be surprised at how bright the kids can be. Not all of them are perfect little geniuses (my kids aren't), but they usually have a better depth of knowledge than the sprinkling that goes on in public schools.
And like most message boards on the internet, Christians get savaged here all the time. Quite frankly, it's getting old. Christians seem to be the only group left that is fair game for attacks and ridicule of their religion. The whole point of Christianity is that man is corrupted by sin and that he can't attain salvation by his own good works and deeds. Only by the grace and mercy of God can he receive salvation. Even Christians get blinded by greed, lust, covetousness, and all the other sins. This is especially true in a society where such sins are normalized and even celebrated. The focus of Christianity is Jesus Christ, not the followers.
It is truly sad when a Christian falls into this kind of well-publicized sin, and brings Christ himself into disrepute among non-believers. There are many verses about that in the Bible. But there is an "upside" to hypocrisy. The very fact that someone can be accused of "hypocrisy" means that that person has a moral standard by which he can be judged. It's amazing how this man's greatest sin on this board appears not to be trying to cheat his bank out of money he promised them; it's the fact that he's a hypocrite. This is the telling state of American society; there appears to be almost no sin left (except maybe child porn and molestation) except for hypocrisy. Believe it or not, there are actually worse sins than hypocrisy.
I remember one in particular. The board said that, if their levy didn't pass, they'd have to cut the athletic programs. They knew where the hot button was and it generated a shit storm.
So, what did The People do? They told the board to cut the advanced academic programs, which is exactly what the board did. No tax increase, sports programs remain, academic programs cut.
After all, making the few sacrifice for the many is what democracy is all about, isn't it?
OhNoNotAgain writes:
"not appreciate the solid dose of leftism/PC that accompanies much teaching"
What ? Did I just wake up in the 90's again ?
OhNoNotAgain | 05.02.08 - 10:01 am | #
Well, I don't know. If you have kids in (most) public schools and do not note that PC (and leftist) perspectives dominate, it definitely does sound like you slept through most of the '00s!
Now granted, you may think this is a good thing and of course you are entitled to that perception. But not to recognize the mostly onesided nature of the presented material is different.
I can grab a handy HS history book or literature "reading list" and email you specifics if desired. Just let me know where!
Christians seem to be the only group left that is fair game for attacks and ridicule of their religion.
Oh yes, the persecution syndrome. That's getting old too.
My objection, mostly, comes from the fact that schools aren't just about academics. It's about socialization, exposure to alternate ways of thinking, cultures, and all the rest that goes with it. The most useful parts of my education came from interactions with others outside the classrooms. What was inside was important too, but I learned about how to fit into social situations and how to work with others in those situations...you know, just like in real life.
Unless, of course, I had mp experience , but then I'd send my kid to a private school. Which is probably what I'd opt to do now anyhow, seeing as how the public ones don't seem to be interested in any sort of academic rigor but, instead, getting people out the door and having their funding stats intact.
From my experience, there are 3 kinds of homeschoolers. There are homeschoolers who for whatever reason think the schools are failing their children and know that they can do better. There are homeschoolers who don't want their kids exposed to certain ideas or people. And there are neglectful ****s who are too lazy to properly care for their children or even register them in school. The 2nd and 3rd groups give the first a bad name.
Simple rule of thumb, if you are doing business with someone, the more they mention God or Jesus, the more careful you have to be. The probability you are dealing with a fraud is directly proportional to the number of times Jesus is invoked.
Dirk | Homepage | 05.02.08 - 9:40 am
This information is included in textbooks on fraud auditing, which I have read, as one of the most predictable way to determine a person is lying.
Homeschooling goes with survivalism and all that retreat from society/head for the hills crap. This is why everyone laughs at homeschoolers and always will. I've got a simpler way to fix education: reinstate segregation.
Christians seem to be the only group left that is fair game for attacks and ridicule of their religion. The whole point of Christianity is that man is corrupted by sin and that he can't attain salvation by his own good works and deeds.
Granted, this isn't the forum for it, but, yes, some might take issue with that point. Nor is the link between that proposition and, say, sacking Constantinople, immediately clear.
But on topic, this Prang guy may have made some boneheaded moves, but you've got to give him credit for taking responsibility for his own mess and disclaiming any desire for a bailout. As long as the mortgage agreement allows him to walk away, it is the lender's problem, and I'll give credit to Prang for not wanting to make it the taxpayers' problem.
I've said before: if the lender wrote an agreement under which a borrower like Prang can walk away, and the borrower chooses to do so, the lender is entitled to whatever recourse the agreement gives them (taking into consideration the prevailing law).
If the lender wants more recourse, they should have put it in the contract. If they didn't, lesson learned: next time, get a better lawyer.
Mr. Prang is not a mortgage broker. He is a W2 employee of a psuedo net branch/mortgage broker. When he goes to the settlement table none of the checks are made out to him or any entity he owns or controls.
Carteret is one of the more benign net branches but still indicative of the Wild West culture that's been allowed to develop unchecked.
I would be surprised if Mr. Prang's home was licensed as a branch for originating mortgages but its possible. Mostly the states and Wholesalers couldn't care less. The only partner in the system who cared were the credit reporting agencies. They would check to make sure there were certain minimum standards, signage, separate and secure facilities for pulling credit, etc. If you didn't want a sign hanging on your house you just didn't tell the state or CRA's and pretended you worked out of the Brokers office. Mostly the states looked the other way.
As far as a W2 employee's credit, it's something that never comes to the attention of the lenders. Only the brokers credit is checked. As it should be.
The problem with this model is that Eric Weinstein has no idea where or who his employees are, who is exposing him to buy-backs, who is jeapordising his licenses or his reputation. There is no supervision of Mr. Prang and only some superficial level of training. And this is one of the better companies!
I cringe at the possibility that Mr. Prang may have decimated the finances of his own congregation but we have built a REIC system of networking monkeys where actual knowledge and experience have no value. Not to the borrowers, not to the lenders, and not to the state. I can see him banging everyone into option arms so they can tithe a little more each month. And you know there was some morally superior Realtor with his/her greasy little fingers in there. And they probably honestly felt good about what they were doing and will continue to do so. Ignorance is bliss.
On another note, who wants to be home all day with the kids and the wife? Did any one ever leave that house? I'd slit my wrists.
One of the most sucessful home builers in my neck of the woods is a fundie/born again type. On his ubiquitous TV&radio spots, he touts his firm as "a Christian-based company" (whatever that means).
He also fancied himself the next Walt Disney, until he got sued by none other than the people at Disney for a blatant copyright infringement.
A rather fascinating article was writen about him a while back, its kind of long but worth a read.
It never ceases to amaze me how such a rube could achieve such success based on little other than wearing his (very popular) religion on his sleeve.
Whenever I dealt in business with a person who invoked God/Jesus often, I'd look at their WWJD bracelet and know it meant What Would Judas Do? Kept me out of some bad deals.
I'm always amazed at these people who are supposed to be "christian" and yet are completely blind to the hypocrisy their actions indicate.
Whenever some businessman/woman implies or flat-out tells you that you can trust them because they are such a good Christian, hold on to your wallet and run don't walk away from them.
One of the biggest churches around here is actually occupying a onetime big-box store that became medium-box and obsolete when the REALLY big box stores came to town.
I don't go to this church or any other church but it does seem to do a lot of good, providing a lot of real support and real help out of poverty and addiction to people in need.
Not all Christians are hypocrites.
And not all homeschoolers are religious wingnuts. My wife homeschools our kids for a number of reasons, one of which is, we don't want big-box eduction for them and we can't afford private school tuition if we hope to save anything for their college.
I do understand why some parents home-school, such as when the kids are really, really smart and the public schools cannot provide instruction at their level; however there's a stigma attached because a lot, a lot, a lot of home-schooling parents are teaching their kids nonsense like creationism and want to indoctrinate their kids with fundamentalist bullshit while shielding them from any possible negative influences in the outside world.
OK you got me going and I apologize in advance for the OT post.
Girlfriend was telling me last night about the time she worked in an office full of born-again Xian zealots. They harangued her mercilessly about joining their cult. When she finally and diplomatically told them she was not interested in what they were selling, she instantly became the office black sheep, she was treated horribly and run out of there in a most un-Christian fashion.
I as well have repeatedly encountered this obscene treatment in the workplace, at the hands of zealous Christians and zealous Catholics. I am willing to live and let live, but they are not. If you are not one of them, you are The Enemy.
They claim that opting out of the system is the only way, and it's downright ignorant. Ever heard of a school board meeting ? Meeting with the teachers ? Nah, you'd rather take your ball and go home instead of actually improving the system.
Well, with my two older kids, I did go to the school for 7 a.m. meetings with teachers, specialists etc. Everyone seemed very dedicated, they all said the right things, educational goals for my kids were set--but not much really changed. I understand why. If your kids need individual attention (because they are gifted or because they are challenged) they aren't likely to get tht at school because the school isn't set up that way and it's not fair to blame the teachers.
I suppose I could pester the school board, run for the board myself, run for the legislature, run for governor etc., but meanwhile my kids are moving through the system. They need better education NOW.
So my younger ones are getting homeschool. My eight-year-old reads Harry Potter and studies ancient egypt. She may head for school at some point, but right now it doesn't seem to make any sense to do that.
I saw the first foreclosure notice in my neighborhood on the door of a nearby house last night. The house looks vacant and the yard is unkempt. Looks like a walk away candidate. Too bad too; they spent the last year fixing up the house (new windows, paint, landscaping . . .). They bought near the peak and were almost certainly underwater on the mortgage -- particularly if they used a HELOC for the improvements.
Headlines . . . coming soon to a neighborhood near you!
Last thought on this topic: I am an agnostic (though Richard Dawkins would classify me as an atheist) and I am far, far more 'Christian' as far as my ethics and values and the way I treat people, than a lot of the Christians I know and read about.
One does not need to believe in magical sky-beings in order to live a good and ethical life; as a matter of fact, I have observed that there is often an inverse correlation between one's public displays of religiosity and their ethics/morals.
We do have one of the old segregationist academies which went defunct and was resurrected by the erstwhile 'homeschoolers' as a 'Christian' academy - what these folks are mainly about is the same thing the Amish and FLDS are after, albeit to a far lesser extreme: isolation from the larger society which surrounds them, with an emphasis on information control. As it has ever been with authoritarian structures, it will ever be.
That said: their "Christianity" on the sleeve is less the norm here than 65 miles to the south, in the home of Jerry Falwell and Liberty University - where you get a lot more of that psuedo-moralistic bigotry. My personal experiences match the wisdom of the audit texts - be extra cautious when dealing with anyone who wraps themselves in the bible. Inherently moral folks (ie, those with an operating internal sense of right an wrong) don't need an external power structure to impose it on them.
I'm waiting to see the carnage really develop around here...the ski resort he mentions - Wintergreen - is imploding right now. At least two "walk-aways" (not really) up there are Realtors who've been foreclosed.
One does not need to believe in magical sky-beings in order to live a good and ethical life; as a matter of fact, I have observed that there is often an inverse correlation between one's public displays of religiosity and their ethics/morals.
rnato, sprung | 05.02.08 - 11:41 am | #
I completely agree. Although you do realize that you're going to burn in a lake of fire for eternity, because Jesus loves you.
That said, I suspect RacerX is right. I'd be shocked if this guy has a net worth of 47 cents. But then I'm skeptical of a lot of stories I hear about folks who "can afford" their mortgages but just choose to walk.
His net worth probably consists of what he knows it will take to be able to continue raising that family on one income. That change is gonna be tough.
I would hope that other mortgage brokers took their huge salaries and paid off what debts they could while they were riding high. A good lesson for anyone.
I also think you're right, it seems like a lot of the walk away stories are about those who are now so hopelessly unemployed - realtors and brokers - that they've lost all hope anyway.
My objection, mostly, comes from the fact that schools aren't just about academics. It's about socialization, exposure to alternate ways of thinking, cultures, and all the rest that goes with it.
HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!
Ooooh. I was "socialized" at school in the 1970s. Need we say more?
ipodius, I am beginning to believe that you are an idealist.
Well given the other public "christain" leaders and business people, at least we can say they are consistent in their actions. Do as I say, not as I do should be the motto especially of our President and Treasury secretary and Carteret as well. Perhaps we should make this the 11th commandment?
This is why I gave up formal religion a long time ago.
Really? We just moved from southern NY to TX in part because the public schools sucked in NY. Meetings with teachers and the PTA were of limited utility; teacher quality had a huge variance and, to be frank, so did parent quality.
Don't know if this thread can be rerailed out of the homeschool/religious stereotypes, but let's give it a go:
For those who doubt whether this person was a true ruthless walkaway (hereafter TRW) (and that includes me in the doubting category), would we expect TRWs to actually talk to the media? Only if the mortgage is non-recourse, I guess, otherwise, it seems you're just giving evidence to the creditors to go after you.
I would expect (more stereotypes, I know) a TRW to keep their head down and not talk to the media. TRWs would seem to me likely already to know how to adhere to the 11th commandment (don't get caught), so they would be shunning publicity, not seeking it.
This makes the Jose Canseco case interesting, since he's going to get publicity regardless. Maybe enough that the media will verify if he does indeed has the assets/income that really make its "ruthless". And while we may not want to confine our sample to people already famous, there may not a choice--the rest may be too anecdotal/unlikely for belief.
I can't blame anyone for being disillusioned with American-style Christianity. We've been heavily infected by the culture around us. If you want to see what it should really look like, look to the Christians of Africa, China, North Korea, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, etc. Although ridicule is a very minor version of persecution, I would never compare the ridicule I see here in America on a daily basis with what our brothers and sisters overseas are experiencing.
As far as "withdrawing", "retreating", "surrendering" our kids by homeschooling... I wonder what you leftists would do if the right-wing Christians really did take over the public school system? I bet you'd be heading for the hills, too! Someone talked about the "nonsense" we teach our kids. Well, try to look at it this way: for every right-wing, Christian, fundamentalist parent who takes his kids out of public school to teach them at home, that is one more parent who is NOT trying to force their style of education on YOUR kids at public expense!
The Alliance for the Separation of School and State. Their premise is that, even though we do have our disagreements, the reason we don't have Balkan-style warfare over religion is that we have freedom of conscience in choosing our religions. Education is (or should be) an extension of one's religious (or non-religious) world-view. If we had freedom in education like we do religion, we wouldn't have all the fights over who gets to decide what to teach with the government tax dollars.
congrats, your kid is going to grow up to be an aspy weirdo just like you.
When I was a kid in the 1950s, every kid had a quick retort for any other kid who made fun of his/her way of doing things: "It's a free country, isn't it?" This was a very common expression. I haven't heard it nearly as much in more recent times.
Look at it independent of creed: there's a correlation between being a loud-mouthed God-botherer (of any stripe) and hypocrisy. It offers so many more opportunities.
Maybe we don't hear "it's a free country" anymore because most people don't really think it is or want it to be. They (many Christians and non-Christians alike) want to control other people's lives through external control, rather than by persuasion and peaceful dialog.
When I was a kid in the 1950s, every kid had a quick retort for any other kid who made fun of his/her way of doing things: "It's a free country, isn't it?" This was a very common expression. I haven't heard it nearly as much in more recent times.
the reason we don't have Balkan-style warfare over religion is that we have freedom of conscience in choosing our religions.
You are entitled to your own religion.
You are not entitled to your own facts.
There's a reason they call it 'education' not 'indoctrination'.
Creationism is a fairy-tale. If you teach your kids that the value of pi is 3 because a 2000 year old book of myths and legends says so, you are dooming your kids to a life of ignorance.
If we as a nation decided to allow this absurd 'school-state' separation you propound, we will become a nation of ignoramuses and the Chinese and Indians will eat our lunch. Well, at least, faster than they are on course to already.
I assure you that China and India are not indulging in this kind of foolish nonsense.
want to control other people's lives through external control, rather than by persuasion and peaceful dialog.
That should read "want to control other people's lives through external control, rather than by convincing them to make a heartfelt change through persuasion and peaceful dialog."
If we as a nation decided to allow this absurd 'school-state' separation you propound, we will become a nation of ignoramuses and the Chinese and Indians will eat our lunch. Well, at least, faster than they are on course to already.
I assure you that China and India are not indulging in this kind of foolish nonsense.
The reason the Chinese and Indians are "eating our lunch" is not because some families teach their kids creationism over evolution. It's because as a nation, we value cheap crap over having a strong nation.
That is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.
If we all believed that, we'd still think that the Earth was the center of the universe and the stars were pinholes in the firmament of heaven.
Science can only answer "how." It can never answer "why." That is the province of philosophy and religion.
The most important questions that can be asked are:
1) How did we get here?
2) What is our purpose here?
3) Why do we act the way we do?
4) What happens to us when we die?
Science falls short in answering all of these questions. If we educate our children only from science and empiricism, we are creating "men without chests" (per C.S. Lewis).
Education is (or should be) an extension of one's religious (or non-religious) world-view.
This is the exact doctrine followed by the fundamentalist Muslims in Pakistan with their 'madrassahs' where the 'education' consists of reading the Quran.
Why don't you move there? It sounds like the ideal society for you.
This is the exact doctrine followed by the fundamentalist Muslims in Pakistan with their 'madrassahs' where the 'education' consists of reading the Quran.
Why don't you move there? It sounds like the ideal society for you.
rnato, sprung,
I believe one day, you'll get the world you are asking for. I hope you like it. Just leave me and my family out of it.
I have a friend who recently ran walking away from his mortgage by me. He's doing okay financially at present but projects difficulty in a year. In the last six months he purchased a new car, flat screen, stereo system for work truck, clothes, and trips out of town. I told him walking away in his situation was fraud and theft. He said that I was too judgmental and rigid and he felt abused.
I believe one day, you'll get the world you are asking for. I hope you like it.
I know I will like it a lot better than the world we've been living with for the past several thousand years, dominated largely by religious ignorance and superstition.
I will repeat what I stated earlier, since you have no adequate answer: the computer you are using today was not invented by men who figured out how to do it by reading the Bible.
The medical science which enables you and your children to live long, healthy lives was not created by priests mumbling over crackers and wine, nor by philosophers navel-gazing over the meaning of life.
The car you drive to work was not invented by men who used Biblical texts as the basis for their research.
The public health standards which allow you to live free of the plague and dysentery and eat food in restaurants without fear of dying from food poisoning, did not come to be because of men in robes praying for God to save us from evil humors.
Mankind spent thousands of years studying the exact questions you claim are the most important, and yet there was little progress in elevating the wellbeing of our living conditions and our society until the Enlightenment... until mankind stopped trying to figure out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin and embraced science instead.
I tell you again... the values you advocate, where education is an extension of religion, are exactly those of the Wahhabi sect in Saudi Arabia and the Islamic extremists in Pakistan and the FLDS church pedophile compound in Texas.
It matters not whether your imaginary friend is called God or Allah or Jehovah. You are all birds of a feather. You worship a philosophy which enjoys the fruits of science and rationalism, all the while advocating a return to the days of ignorance and superstition.
I have no children at all, nor do I ever plan to. I pay my property taxes gladly because I know that the future of our society depends upon properly educating our children in English, math, literature, history and science.
They should be free to believe whatever religion they like. If, after being instructed in science - INCLUDING evolution - they decide they don't believe in this or that, so be it. It's their loss and clearly they won't grow up to be a scientist if they don't think that evolution is true or quantum theory is true.
However, I'll be damned if I'll allow my education tax dollars to be used to teach religious foolishness like creationism or ID in our schools.
If this nation ever embraces your 'education as an extension of religion' philosophy, then it will deserve its fate, which will be to be crushed by the Chinese and Indians while we wallow in our ignorance.
However, I'll be damned if I'll allow my education tax dollars to be used to teach religious foolishness like creationism or ID in our schools.
You are still missing my point. I don't want your (or my) tax dollars going to support the teaching of ID or anti-evolutionism in schools, either. I want the freedom to teach my kids at home (at my expense) by the dictates of my conscience. I believe everyone, atheists and agnostics included, should have that right.
In fact, we do have that right. Homeschooling is legal in all 50 states. You seem to have a problem with this. That's where my problem with you lies. It's not enough that I teach my kids my beliefs at my own expense. My kids are actually cogs in some bigger wheel called "society," and if I teach them a different interpretation of the facts of science than you have, that somehow endangers our national security and global economic competitiveness.
If that's so, well too bad. Their my kids, and the US courts (currently) say I have the right to homeschool them, even if that means that I teach them that awful thing called "Christianity". If that sticks in your craw, tough.
Look at it independent of creed: there's a correlation between being a loud-mouthed God-botherer (of any stripe) and hypocrisy. It offers so many more opportunities.
Yup. I've reported a story or two about people who entrusted their investment portfolio to that nice godfearing man from their church. This often ends badly. The Attorney General's office has a bland sort of generic name for it: "affinity fraud."
Yup. I've reported a story or two about people who entrusted their investment portfolio to that nice godfearing man from their church. This often ends badly.
dochood, teaching your kids about your particular flavor of God is your business and yours alone.
But do you really think it's a wise thing to teach your kids that pi is equal to 3 or 2+2 is 5 or the earth is flat, just because the Bible says so?
You seem to (I think) understand the difference between the spheres of religion and science, though I would disagree profoundly that science is not equipped to answer the timeless questions you posed up above.
So why do you want to teach your kids that the world was created in 6 consecutive 24-hour periods, 6000 years ago?
Do you really think it would be a good thing for this country if everyone agreed that education is an extension of religion? We'd be just as poverty-stricken and ignorant as the Afghanis or Pakistanis if everyone thought like you.
How fortunate for you that those of us who recognize the value of rationalism and science won't deny the fruits of our labor to those who prefer the fruits of ignorance and superstition.
So why do you want to teach your kids that the world was created in 6 consecutive 24-hour periods, 6000 years ago?
So, um... did you, like, break into my house in the middle of the night to peek at my curriculum to come to this conclusion? I never said that taught my kids what you claim (in fact, I don't).
Do you really think it would be a good thing for this country if everyone agreed that education is an extension of religion? We'd be just as poverty-stricken and ignorant as the Afghanis or Pakistanis if everyone thought like you.
Everyone did think like me up until about 1925 (Darwin wasn't popularized until then... Scopes Monkey Trial). And most had some thought of God until the 1960's. We did pretty well in science. I believe that studying science is practically a duty for the Christian. Using science to improve lives in a positive way is a high calling.
How fortunate for you that those of us who recognize the value of rationalism and science won't deny the fruits of our labor to those who prefer the fruits of ignorance and superstition.
I haven't posted a lot about my beliefs here. You make an awful lot of assumptions (driven by your preconceived notions) about what I do and don't believe.
It's probably about time to return this thread to its regularly scheduled programming...
You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.
--Wrongful use should definitely include using His name to sell things and profit from the sale of said things.
An altar of earth thou shalt make unto Me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt-offerings, and thy peace-offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen; in every place where I cause My name to be mentioned I will come unto thee and bless thee.
--This tithing with money thing is suspicious anyway. Money is too fungible. The Christian system would be cleaner and less corrupt if they went back to offering meat. (and I dont mean the Jesus meat, i.e., the Eucharist)
Well, the God I believe in isn't short on cash, mister. --U2
rnato, sprung--all those things are true, but why does it matter whether we live long healthy lives with modern conveniences borne of a rational interpretation of the universe? Why do we even try to better our collective lot? Why and how do aggregations of carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, et.al, care, when formed into a sentient being, that their kids survive?
Scientific materialism/rationalism offers no answers. And please, to say it is to propagate the species is circular reasoning (as Dawkins, et al does). Why bother w/ species propagation if we are only just a boiling batch of chemicals? Something else, it seems, is going on.
Back to topic: First client I had as a closing attorney was an outfit advertising on the local christian radio as "the christian mortgage broker". They had prayer meetings/bible classes everyday. The company imploded about a year and a half after I started doing work for them. I (and several other lawyers)ended up being dragged through a lawsuit for about $150,000 (for me) of $3m they had borrowed on their warehouse line and failed to fund loans w/. Unfortunately, some of the money had gone through our trust accounts, and the bank was casting about looking for someone, like our insurance carriers, to sue. After $30,000 in legal fees, I was completely vindicated, as were the rest of the attorneys.
Nowadays (ten years later) I never do business anymore w/ anyone that feels compelled to tell me they are "Christian". If I can't tell it by their actions, hearing them say it won't convince me, and just makes me suspicious of their motives.
Dirk: "Simple rule of thumb, if you are doing business with someone, the more they mention God or Jesus, the more careful you have to be. "
Yep; that's my experience. It is like a rattlesnake's rattle - there to warn you. It isn't that Christians are bad risks. It's that people who talk about how they are Christians are bad risks,
Oh, man you bring back bad memories of this summer job I had at a Dutch Reformed run company in Michigan back in my college days. I survived because during week two when my office-mate asked "Have you accepted the lord Jesus as your savior?"
I replied, "No, but I can see you will be making my life hell, so who does that make you?" That was the end of it, funny enough.
But to return vaguely to topic. In general, anytime someone feels the need to point out what should be inherently obvious, it's a huge red flag that they have a problem in that area. From used car dealers offering "honest deals" to employers who have "empowerment initiatives".
Conseco is not a good example of a RWA, since he isn't walking away from a mortgage or just a mortgage -- he is walking away from a judgment on top of a mortgage(s). When he said he didn't own it, it wasn't this barely abstract notion that although it is in his name, the banks who hold the loans "own" it. It is that someone sued him, won, and they actually do own any possible equity. He probably doesn't even know he is underwater.
I also think Prang's idea of 'having enough money' is that he temporarily has/had enough credit to get current.
I gotta say, needing a biblical justification for leverage is hard for me to comprehend. I prefer the more direct approach of Rev Ike. More like the religious version of Gorden Gekko's 'Greed is good'.
Ike's intuitive understanding of the importance of luck is a rather simplistic version of 'Fooled by Randomness.' Ike seems to have bought real estate at the bottom. Let's see if he has the luck to sell at the top.
Without a doubt, one of the most entertaining threads in a long time. Really restores my lack of faith in just about everything. Mixing money, religion and politics always results in something explosive. BTW, best abbreviation of the year has to be WTFWJD? Brilliant!!!!!
The 'Walk Away' problem is a serious threat to the whole real estate and mortgage system.
I think authorities need to take action to make it much harder to 'walk away'.
What can be done?
I think a good way would be to create large, long-term or even permanent damage to your credit rating.
If you know that you can never buy a house again when you 'walk away' would that solve the 'walk away' problem?
"I think a good way would be to create large, long-term or even permanent damage to your credit rating.
If you know that you can never buy a house again when you 'walk away' would that solve the 'walk away' problem?"
Yes, and it would harken the return of indentured servitude/slavery and debtor's prisons.
But really, what is an underwater McMansion but a fancy debtor's prison, unless you have the option to walk away?
1) How did we get here?
Well, it all started with some primal ooze, evolved over billions of years, into apes and eventually us. Are you a talkin heads fan by the way?
2) What is our purpose here?
As with all species, survival of oneself and one's species. (ie mating and creating spawn).
3) Why do we act the way we do?
Some just b/c some preacher tells them how. Others, free will.
4) What happens to us when we die?
We become worm food.
DonKei writes:
Yes, and it would harken the return of indentured servitude/slavery and debtor's prisons.
Sure. Bankruptcy laws allow someone to wipe the slate clean and start over without debt.
I agree that should not be changed.
HOWEVER: What we're talking about here is people who have enough income or assets to be responsible for their mortgage. Except they don't feel like being responsible any more, because it's not profitable.
We should attach severe consequences to such behavior.
I apologize to all commenters for getting a little carried away with my back-and-forth with doc. I guess I've just had about enough with religious foolishness, especially considering what we have been through the last 8 years.
"HOWEVER: What we're talking about here is people who have enough income or assets to be responsible for their mortgage. Except they don't feel like being responsible any more, because it's not profitable.
We should attach severe consequences to such behavior."
Unfortunately, it takes 3 creditors (or evidence of less than 12 creditors) owed $10k or more to file an involuntary bankruptcy. Maybe add another category so that a deficiency on a secured loan, if large enough (say $50k), can be filed by a single creditor, regardless of total number of creditors?
I think the sleeper of this story was Prang's comment "Why take the chance to buy something that a year from now could be worth a lot less"...logically then, he should stay away from: the stock market, bonds, futures, derivities, and any other type of investment product or asset, as they "could be worth a lot less" a year after his purchase of them. That someone would think there was no risk in re investing (even in '04/05) provides a real window in whats going on, or usually, whats not going on in the ole noggin..
If Tanta is right, and walk-aways aren't really all that prevalent, it might be a good time for someone, I'm not sure who, to publish some really nasty consequences against those who "walk-away."
I'm not sure who would have the power to do it. Perhaps the credit bureaus? Couldn't they implement a 10-year consequence on your credit score for walking away without trying to work with the bank? Would Congress have the power to pass a law providing some kind of nasty penalty?
I don't know how people here feel about it, but over at Housing Panic, they seem to be cheering on this kind of behavior. I'm a little worried that by publicizing it, whether its prevalent or not, it will become a self-fulfilling.... um.... prediction. It just seems to me that if everyone who is having trouble pulls this stunt at the same time... well, you get the picture.
The whole economy seems to run on trust. Trust goes out the window when personal responsibility does.
Exactly, if this 'walk away' thing turns into a real panic it's inevitable that something nasty will have to get done against it. That may require passing a law.
Have any people of authority talked about this?
I'm a mtg broker who has rented for most of this decade. It stopped making sense to buy right around 2001, 2002 at the very latest. After that, prices detached from any reality and soared until 2005. 2006 was the real estate market crash and 2007 the financial crash and resulting credit risk panic.
The reason it made sense for me is because I am single and like a lot of cash flow. If I were a family man, I would have probably bought like everybody else as it was more than financial ignorance that brought us here. It was the prevailing mentality that ownership was the norm and renting was stupid. Now renters look like fricken rocket scientists.
Homeownership is the American Dream but it is not without a price and some sacrifice to buy the property. Now that lending is sober again, the market will come back down to earth once seller denial is beaten into submission. I sure wouldn't want to be a seller for at least another decade or more.
"Education is (or should be) an extension of one's religious (or non-religious) world-view. If we had freedom in education like we do religion, we wouldn't have all the fights over who gets to decide what to teach with the government tax dollars."
OK fine. But if you should find yourself needing a surgeon, I expect you to limit your search to one who has been homeschooled.
Y'know, I almost (all-mmost) feel a twinge fer Mr. Prang. Here now, he got into a hot business---relitting---kept his nose clean, put that clean probiscus to the grindstone, even exercised some entrepreneurial gumption cashing out his sole real asset to start a hands-on side business . . . and here he is. The Invisible Hand plucked up his petite bourgeois rentier dreams along with his assets, stuffed into the May of Iniquitous Debt, chewed them up, and spit out the bones as fertilizer for the increase of other men. So what does he do? Well, yes, he sins against the banks who gave him a hand up in life, yes---but this is soooo Christian, isn't it. Sin now; beg the forgiveness of the Christ; receive absolution (for nothing, Jesus loves yah, baby); and get back after it again. He sounds sooo committed, but to what, pray tell, other than his own sweet tokus?
Mr. Prang isn't a relitter: he's 'in the business,' but didn't even know what a deed-in-lieu is. Or, one can surmise, much of anything else about the business beside where his name goes on the commission statement. He will be soon back at it selling some other soapbox or its contents to 'the community,' i.e. others who see the fish on his lapel and think that makes him a better man to do business with. So when he loses more money in later ventures for those other good Christians that doesn't make him a bad man; no sir, it does not.
Lessee on his net: selling his ridiculously over-priced above, remodel nothwithstanding, for $699K "wouldn't clear his debt," so he cashed out all of his second and his HELOC to fund this side business. Where he "was foreclosed on," so other than some minor assets like a vehicle or tools he lost his stake there. Which means he is dependent upon his income as a relitter, plus whatever his wife brings in which, if she's a Christian homeschooler, is likely nothing. From that, he has to pay on $725K worth of mortgages, all of which were taken out near the market top so he does not figure to have good rates or structure, likely a ballooning ARM if he got it from AHM. Mr. Prang may be able to pay as of today by burning through the last of his cash and other assets, but by Summer he is highly unlikely to be able to pay. So, this isn't a walkaway, it's a run-away from a financial firetrap with the curtains in the backroom already aflame.
to the homeschoolers:
bravo for sticking to your guns. it's good to have diversity IMO.
renato: lighten up on these people. You don't know the specifics of how or why they homeschool.
it is a free country, and I support anybody's right to live their own life by their own morals. moreover why do I care when I don't have to pay for it, and when it doesn't affect me in the least.
I know that I would homeschool my kids if my local school taught from the bible or koran or torah, so I support and understand the RIGHTS of those people on the other side of the aisle.
in general, homeschoolers can do quite well academically... in fact, I've rarely heard that as the big "problem". instead, it was more of their difficulty "fitting in" later in life.
I'm sure most of us remeber kids who were homeschooled who went to college with us... my college used to have TONS of homeschoolers, and I never met one that was anywhere near normal. they could interact with adults in academic settings and get A's, but forget about "hanging out" with kids their age.
but those were the "homeschool pioneers", and thus it was truly only the fringes who did it. thus it wasn't a surpise that the homeschool kids didn't know how to act around their peers. it likely had more to do with their parents than the actual homeschooling...
but I've heard this is changing. first, because more and more people are homeschooling (so it's not only the far out kooks doing it), and also because there are homeschool associations etc to help teach the kids how to be kids.
there are a lot of areas where one can contribute to society, and yet not believe that there were ever dinosaurs on the earth as example.
for instance, I don't care if my colleagues (I'm an MD) believe in creationism or armageddon or not, so long as they also believe that god created scientists and science and microscopic organisms (that go through evolution rapidly) and antibacterials and antivirals and transplants and chemotherapy and all the rest.
and so long as they restrict prayer to willing patients as an ADJUNCT to conventional therapy and not INSTEAD of conventional therapy. (e.g. let us pray as we do your radiation therapy)
many/most of the scientists of faith that I know are pretty reasonable. they typically find a way to reconcile the differences. Some simply believe that god created the earth through the big bang, and that he created Adam through evolution, and so on.
for example, when I was religious, that's what I believed. I simply thought "hmm... if lived during the iron age and god showed me a vision about the big bang and creation of earth, is it inconceivable that when I wrote down what I saw that I'd say it was 7 days?" I mean, you gotta admit, "First there was light" is an awful lot like "big bang"
and I'd guess that most "true believers" don't become scientists because it's not in their belief system. so they can become lawyers and social workers and artists and police officers and bloggers and trapeze artists and all sorts of other very productive things
My first first!
sad stuff - this is mans way no the word. Two are far apart course so is the world. I am seeing this stuff also up here in washington state...just had a friend say F... it.Could not sell it and had to move and they finally said here you go and walked.
His other interests include: Business Development & Entrepreneurship, Helping people create wealth, Teaching Christian Business Principles, Reading on personal, business & financial development, Song writing & musical composition, Patriotic History and Golf, as Well aS cReative Capitalization.
WWJW?
"Christian Business Principles" apparently didn't have a unit on "rendering unto Caesar."
I particularly liked the part where he remarks that he had never heard of a deed-in-lieu. Why the hell would he volunteer that bit?
I fully expect that Mr. Prang is about to reinvent himself as a "foreclosure prevention counselor." His schtick will be all about how if he'd known all this stuff when his Time of Tribulation occurred, he'd have avoided FC. So he is called to witness about DILs to other sinners in trouble, for only $99.99 COD for the videotape.
Walking away is becoming so pedestrian.
How does one stay ahead of the crowd?
Tanta, he's hiring (or should I say Hiring!!!!!):
Carteret Mortgage is looking for Producing Loan Officers with 2 years or more in the mortgage business. We are NOT looking for individuals wanting a career change or loan officers with no experience - - that is why we are among the HIGHEST Paid in the industry!!!!!
Deflation Alert: Get Ben in the helicopter! Now!
And he says if he had sufficient funds, he wouldn't pour them into buying a house now. "Why take the chance to buy something that a year from now could be worth a lot less?"
Tanta, this guy could be the brother of a former boss of mine. Let's just say he didn't live his "values" either. The irony is so strong it's positively painful. Ugh.
..."I could have come current," confesses Prang. "I have the money.
Sounds dubious.
I'm not sure how familiar you're with Carteret but it's kind of like the Amway of the mortgage business. Here's info on the parent company.
https://www2.carteretmortgage.com/
Now I understand why there's so much talking up of walkaways to the press -- the anecdotes are conveniently located in the mortgage biz's own pockets!
Whatever happened to a sense of personal responsibility? He implies that he is a devout Christian, and yet he walked away from his commitment. He does not want the government to step in, but of course screwing the banks that gave you loans is just fine.
Do not get me wrong. I am sympathetic with those cannot make payments, and I do not pardon lenders from their responsibilities, but THIS GUYS HAS THE MONEY TO BE CURRENT. He made a bad investment and decided to lay his decision off on the banks. This is as bad as DKing a stock broker when you time the market wrong. It is analagous to stealing.
Not very Christian to me.
"Prang" means to crash in English, if I recall... and that sums this clown up.
No matter - the Fed will keep cutting rates, the dollar will tank, and the stock market will hit new highs even as the nation is overrun with empty houses, lost jobs, and run-away inflation. Walkaways are just a sign fo the times, a time where no contracts are valid, everyone is looking for the next scam, and the only crime is being caught.
Now I understand why there's so much talking up of walkaways to the press -- the anecdotes are conveniently located in the mortgage biz's own pockets!
I have more or less come to the conclusion that if you subtract out the relitters and mortgage borkers from the "walkaway" demographic it shrinks to about 1% of troubled borrowers.
That said, I suspect RacerX is right. I'd be shocked if this guy has a net worth of 47 cents. But then I'm skeptical of a lot of stories I hear about folks who "can afford" their mortgages but just choose to walk.
...if you subtract out the relitters and mortgage borkers from the "walkaway" demographic it shrinks to about 1% of troubled borrowers
I don't know what the % is but there was a substantial amount of speculation among these parties.
Note that if a broker screws up their credit it's much less likely that they'll be approved by a lender. Although that may seem obvious to most people it's just now starting to hit some brokers (and by extention the AEs)
Wow, what a great morning tea-reading post! Like you tanta, I'm always skeptical of people that say they can pay but don't...more bravado/denial methinks. It's easier to say, psychologically, that you "walked away" than it is to admit you totally screwed up and were over your head.
The delicious bit is, of course, the personal background. I'm always amazed at these people who are supposed to be "christian" and yet are completely blind to the hypocrisy their actions indicate. WWJD indeed! Although I have to say that when I read "home school" I immediately know what I'm dealing with...generally some right-wing fringe nutter with a Q04 sticker still on the back of the SUV alongside that yellow ribbon (made in china) which, of course, they don't get the irony of either.
Thank you Tanta - I needed that this morning. Lord knows there are a lot of Prang's out there in fly-over. Man I know too many of them - nice enough people really when you meet them - but some of the wrongest folks I have ever met. Serially catastrophically wrong too.
He'll move on and be wrong about something else, somewhere else again soon.
Its a good thing God loves him - everybody should be loved by somebody.
Note that if a broker screws up their credit it's much less likely that they'll be approved by a lender.
Yeah, but, you see, Prang says he "knows how to repair" his credit.
One hopes the wholesalers are looking out for brokers who just got a brand-new SSN.
Someone might want to review the economics section of his home schooling curriculum.
WWJD?
When Would Jesus Default?
dryfly- "He'll move on and be wrong about something else, somewhere else again soon."
You're right. He'll probably run for Congress. And win.
There is so much about this story that just reeks but the Yahoo home page is not going to make you much happier, Tanta. Story of Jose Canseco letting his home go. I can not do the linky thing but it is the home page. It just won't help any of this nonsense to fade away.
I would say Prang just "became known"
Well, DUH, story below this. I need coffee. Sorry.
The big question for me is how does Carteret respond to this. Remember that Prang is operating under Carteret's license. Will Carteret police themselves or will they permit their LOs to operate in a fashion that is completely irresponsible. Will lenders realize how fraught with risk this type of business model is and sever their ties to these types of brokers?
When exactly did the Yahoo home page go all Jerry-Springerish?
Ummm, if the mood is euphoric, jobs only declined by a mere 20,000 and there is no recesssion, why did the Fed need to do this?
Fed Raises Cash-Loan Auctions by 50% to $75 Billion...By Scott Lanman...May 2 (Bloomberg) -- The Federal Reserve expanded its cash- loan auctions for banks by 50 percent to $75 billion each after higher borrowing costs blunted the impact of the four-month-old program.
The Fed also increased its currency-swap arrangement with the European Central Bank by two-thirds to $50 billion and doubled the amount with the Swiss National Bank to $12 billion, extending their terms through January. In a third move, the Fed will accept other AAA/Aaa-rated asset-backed securities as collateral for Treasury loans through another program.
Although I have to say that when I read "home school" I immediately know what I'm dealing with...generally some right-wing fringe nutter with a Q04 sticker still on the back of the SUV alongside that yellow ribbon (made in china) which, of course, they don't get the irony of either.
ipodius | 05.02.08 - 8:30 am | #
Unfortunately in about 3/4s of the US this guy isn't 'fringe' - he's 'center'. The people reading this forum are the 'fringe'. Believe me - they don't build all those mega-churches based on tithing from econo-bloggers.
And they are out there, maybe not as many along the banks of Charles as say the banks of the Ohio but they are out there... lotsa them.
Hmmm. Employment down, wage growth rapidly decelerating, inflation accelerating - apparently the elimination of the middle class is very bullish for stocks. Excuse me while I step outside to wretch.
dryfly- "He'll move on and be wrong about something else, somewhere else again soon."
You're right. He'll probably run for Congress. And win.
mp | 05.02.08 - 8:45 am | #
Tell me about it. If this guy were to run in my district he'd have to beat out another clown just like him.
Home Schooling... like other oxymorons (
Believe me - they don't build all those mega-churches based on tithing from econo-bloggers.
If they're building them based on tithing from mortgage brokers, the bottom's about to fall out of Nonresidential Religious Construction Starts . . .
What hath God [and God's followers] wrought?
I'm appalled.. Doesn't sincerity doesn't count for anything any more? O tempora, o mores.
Prang is born unto trouble, as the sparks fly upwards
Soon to be Prang family, "trailer schoolers."
If they're building them based on tithing from mortgage brokers, the bottom's about to fall out of Nonresidential Religious Construction Starts . . .
Tanta | 05.02.08 - 8:54 am | #
I was thinking the EXACT same thing. Add construction sub-contractors, yard maint. service providers... and all the other 'home businesses'. All will take a hit will eventually put a good sized dent in the Religion Industrial Complex - at least on the balance sheet side of things (can't speak for the net asset value of a 'saved soul' - have to wait for the analyst's report on that one)...
There may be some good come out of this mortgage mess yet.
More Theoeconomics from our Mr. Prang:
Borrowing money to purchase assets (also used as collateral) that appreciate and earn a rate of return is not the kind of borrowing that the bible is warning about. If someone can borrow and create more wealth with the borrowed money, he is being a better steward of Gods money. Remember its all Gods money, what the lender gave to the borrower was Gods money, not the lenders.
Since the borrower now has the money working for him and not him for the money, who now becomes the ruler? The borrower does, and the lender and his/the lenders money are working for him/the borrower.
Imagine if both the lender and the borrower are Christians and good stewards. The lender earns a return on Gods money that he lent to the borrower and gives a tithe back to God. The borrower takes Gods money that was lent to him and creates more wealth with it and gives a tithe back to God. Both are serving God and not each other.
Three things happen:
1. Gods money is increased by both the lender and the borrower (parable of the talents)
2. More money is given to put towards Gods kingdom purposes
3. They both hear, well done good and faithful servant!
Funny. I'm not hearing the "well done good and faithful servant!" part. Perhaps I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.
Free Money Finance: Five Biblical Principles about Borrowing and Debt
Perfectly representative of the hypocracy and cognitive dissonance which has become part of the "Amerikan" consciousness.
Time for some spring cleaning of our gene pool.
OT, but no comments on the jobs report? A real surprise, isn't it?
Adding insult to irony, from looking at the satellite photo the Foxwood Forest development appears to have bulldozed every tree in sight into oblivion, sort of like the intro to the tv show Weeds.
Jose Canseco now as well...
Turbo said: "Hmmm. Employment down, wage growth rapidly decelerating, inflation accelerating - apparently the elimination of the middle class is very bullish for stocks...."
I'm middle-class, and doing fine.
Sebastia
"I'm middle-class, and doing fine."
Anecdote =/ Data
this good Christian sh** is so stupid.
who wrote the bible?
fair ground, right? everyone else is bringing religion into this!
o comments on the jobs report? A real surprise, isn't it?
Historical Net Birth/Death Adjustments
Fake Jobs
historical speaking no.
Thanks for that last piece - Tanta | 05.02.08 - 9:00 am | # - I knew the guy had to be a charismatic... explains it all.
As my priest would say... 'Yup God wants us to follow Jesus and make lotsa money - man did you see HIS portfolio... off the charts!' My kids loved the old codger - he was pretty snarky.
There was a 'faith-based' realty company that went bankrupt about a year ago. They even had a staff 'religious counselor', along with daily prayer meetings. Anyone remember where that was?
I am a man of faith, generally, but when you meet someone loudly proclaiming their holy principles, make sure your wallet is safe.
As an older Native American type, we have lots of stories about this.
Wow! I'm really enjoying this thread. So, Carteret and Mr. Prang can earn a better rate of return on God's money that God himself?
Aren't Christians supposed to forgive debts to the needy? He's just helping the banks be more Christian! Call it ministry work.
It's particularly shocking he recommends other people keep up payments if they can. But he gets to walk.
Wherever Christianity is, there's a brand of it that tends to reflect the values of the surrounding culture, rather than vice-versa.
Mr. Prang's version is very typical of the American consumer culture: God's there to help you get what you want, not make unreasonable demands that you examine the wisdom of your ways.
Unfortunately, Mr. Prang's Big-Box Christianity is the dominant form in the U.S. right now. Given some hard times, that may change.
Imagine if both the lender and the borrower are Christians and good stewards. The lender earns a return on Gods money that he lent to the borrower and gives a tithe back to God. The borrower takes Gods money that was lent to him and creates more wealth with it and gives a tithe back to God. Both are serving God and not each other.
Now imagine stiffing God for the loan(s).
Does everlasting damnation or the eternal fires of Hell come to mind?
I know I'd have some trepidations about F-ing around with God's money. But that's just this responsibility thingie I have.
"some right-wing fringe nutter with a Q04 sticker still on the back of the SUV alongside that yellow ribbon (made in china) which, of course, they don't get the irony of either."
ipodius | 05.02.08 - 8:30 am | #
Wow - that's kind of a broad brush, Ipodius, don't you think?
I know several homeschoolers, and only one comes close to that 'profile'.
My perception is that homeschooling (which we don't do - my wife and I are professionals and didn't want to give up/lose track on our careers) is fast-growing, and includes people who want to spend more time with their kids, people who don't like constant threat/danger to their kids (my daughter's school had a lockdown recently due to a stabbing), people who believe they can educate their kids better than the unmotivated time-servers dozing at the front of the classroom (hint: one of my daughter's teachers this year has not 'taught' the subject YET and the year is almost over. Classes are a mix of opinion about current events - which is not the class subject, movies, and tests on the book), people who do not appreciate the solid dose of leftism/PC that accompanies much teaching (if we had ever adopted HS, it would be for this and the previous two reasons), and finally the "religious nutters". And I guess that is a broad group as one of the "religious nutters" is Jewish.
I fully expect that Mr. Prang is about to reinvent himself as a "foreclosure prevention counselor."
I was thinking "Youth Pastor".
Conjure and I need to learn more about Big Box Christianity.
Oops, sorry, Ipodius, I conflated your comments about hypocritical Christians and right wing nutters. My apologies on that, but the rest of my comment still stands -- people home school for many reasons beyond "nuttership", of either right-wing or religious motivation.
Conjure and I need to learn more about Big Box Christianity.
In my experience, Big Box churches preach the virtues of living debt free while selling bonds to build bigger gyms.
I was thinking "Youth Pastor".
Nowhere near enough money in that.
I wonder how his attitudes toward usury square with his YSP.
Unless a religion is in it's formative stage, it is just words. This has been known for centuries. There is even a term for it 'dead dogma', meaning someone talks the talk, but is clueless about the walk.
As for the Mega Churches, look for good deals in large structures and large parking lots. Christianity has crashed among the young and those structures were built assuming cheap gas and consumers of religious with money to spend. They will be hit with declining incomes and increasing demands as members change from tithing to asking for alms.
As the press keeps on flogging walk a ways, it will happen. Just putting the idea out there will influence folks that never thought of it. It will make it socially acceptable to the marginal folks and as the numbers and publicity increase, it will increase.
Simple rule of thumb, if you are doing business with someone, the more they mention God or Jesus, the more careful you have to be. The probability you are dealing with a fraud is directly proportional to the number of times Jesus is invoked.
Daniel Plainview: "The Lord sometimes challenges us, doesn't he?"
Eli Sunday: "Oh yes he does! Yes he does! Oh! He's completely failed to alert me to the recent panic in our economy..."
I schooled son of mp at home with Conjure's assistance, but definitely not for religious reasons.
His curriculum was unique, not taught in schools: mathematics, history, literature, finance, politics, economics, negotiation.
He graduated four years ago and recently eviscerated a 40-year-old Harvard graduate.
My boy!
I wonder how his attitudes toward usury square with his YSP.
You wonder?
YSP = Yaweh's Special Plan
It's the Lord's money, doin' the Lord's work. By raising the borrower's interest rate, he's simply helping the borrower to pay more of God's money to God's lenders who will use it to pay God's tithes. God needs tithes because He gave all his money to the lenders so they could manage His investments for Him. I think.
"mp writes:
Conjure and I need to learn more about Big Box Christianity."
These people are the godfathers of big-box Christianity. They came up with the formula through market research and marketed it around the country. There are 12,000 churches in the franchise
Willow Creek Association - Serving Christ-following church leaders around the world.
Check the "Find a Church" link, look up the member churches near you, and you'll see the similarities.
"Believe me - they don't build all those mega-churches based on tithing from econo-bloggers."
I like to measure the direct stupidity/ignorance of a local community by the size of their churches.
Anyone else traveled throughout SC, AL, NC, GA, TX???
Can we get a graph of religious construction starts by floor plan size?? =)
Christianity = The original Ponzi scheme.
All Charles Ponzi did was run a christianity scheme with stamps instead of saved souls
It should be called
Wow - that's kind of a broad brush, Ipodius, don't you think?
Ummm no. I'm a very religious guy, actually, if you knew me in person. But I take a dim view of people that use religious texts to justify their own bad behavior by twisting what it says to back up their point of view, or try to brainwash their children in some misguided attempt to "school" them. Just what we need, more intolerant, hypocrites in the world.
Business is business, and whatever God may be, I'm sure he/she is completely unconcerned about money. If you make some, keep your mouth shut and do some good with it. Be like Gates or Buffett and start foundations to give it all away. But don't pretend that you're doing "god's work" or that you have any idea of what "god's work" is. Because that's the ultimate blasphemy in my book...pretending to know what the ultimate force of the universe wants.
His curriculum was unique, not taught in schools: mathematics, history, literature, finance, politics, economics, negotiation.
Oh my! You can't teach those things! How would you satisfy "no child left behind" and have them pass the state tests so they can graduate? No no no! You have to do what a friend of mine was told recently by his high school principal...let me see if I can quote: "don't correct grammar or syntax in your class because they kids don't need any of that to pass the MCAS (the MA state graduation exam)". Ipodius wonders why his college students can't write a paragraph to save their souls.
Maybe I'll rethink that whole home schooling thing. Oh and I'd teach religion all right. All of them. Just so that kids can understand how Bronze Age tribal conceptions of the world have no place in the 21st century.
Mortgage brokers know how to game the system. Currently I rent from one such hombre. He owes over $4 million on 4 "investments" that have a current market value of $2.5 million. He's been underwater from the get-go (not to mention earning zero selling mortgates for a while now) and even still was able to get a 300k home equity loan from WaMu THIS DECEMBER. By the way, all of his debt payments are currently "adjusting" upward.
Now, as for some of you clowns caricaturizing homeschooling, well, your own "education" fails you - as it was in fact designed to do so.
"not appreciate the solid dose of leftism/PC that accompanies much teaching"
What ? Did I just wake up in the 90's again ?
I live in Albemarle county and would note for you all that the RE conditions here lag in comparison to other markets. This particular story (which I read in yesterday's Hook) is kind of a canary in the coal mine. I suspect that much more distressed real estate will come onto the market soon, and that the flood will overwhelm the ability of the local RE establishment to control information.
There are anecdotes of people locally having stopped paying on their car notes. This is what happens when you frontload an economy.
If you have money, get ready to buy big chunks of beautiful land here next year (and a half) for cheap. Also, people are going belly up in Keswick- fair more pedigreed than Foxwood.
Regarding the subtext of the Prosperity Gospel theology(?), utter horse puckey. Emblematic of the smothering ignorance which mars American culture.
"Now, as for some of you clowns caricaturizing homeschooling, well, your own "education" fails you - as it was in fact designed to do so."
Yeah, our schools are designed to make kids dumber, right ? See, this is the type of thing that makes HSer's look like nuts. They claim that opting out of the system is the only way, and it's downright ignorant. Ever heard of a school board meeting ? Meeting with the teachers ? Nah, you'd rather take your ball and go home instead of actually improving the system.
We love our public schools here in western NY. They're pretty good quality, and they teach some pretty advanced courses.
Anyone else traveled throughout SC, AL, NC, GA, TX predisposed to moronic generalizations???
Regarding Prang's Theoeconomics, I've been very fond of Herzog's take on the Parable of the Talents / Parable of the Minas ever since I've heard it. Parallels H-Sphere
(from the link) Now, trading talents was not something that happened the way we trade stocks these days. No, trading talents meant acquiring land from people. It meant calling in peoples debts. It meant foreclosing on land. It meant increasing the power of farmland from the peasants to the rich landowner. No one ever questions this practice in stewardship sermons on the parable of the talents, but there it is.
Yossarian--the christian tradition itself also has stories about this. For instance, Matthew chapter 6.
And I'm surprised Matthew 25's parable of the talents does not feature prominently on the website. If I were going to run a "Christian business" that would sure be my first line of defense.
Anyhow, I like the thought of the Church of the Econo-Blogger. Or perhaps just a patron saint, Our Lady of Eternal Econo-blogging?
ipodius:
Although I have to say that when I read "home school" I immediately know what I'm dealing with...generally some right-wing fringe nutter with a Q04 sticker still on the back of the SUV alongside that yellow ribbon (made in china) which, of course, they don't get the irony of either.
Homeschoolers come in all shapes and sizes: Christian, left and right wing; Muslim; Hindu; Atheist; Socialist; moderate doctor/lawyer types; etc. They homeschool for a variety of reasons: more control and the ability to tailor curriculum to their kids' needs; safety; avoiding negative socialization; avoiding 'labeling'; pacing the learning to their kids' needs; for philosophical reasons - e.g. not taking a government handout.
Your comment epitomizes 'prejudice', that it, judging without knowledge. Get to know some homeschoolers; you might be surprised at how bright the kids can be. Not all of them are perfect little geniuses (my kids aren't), but they usually have a better depth of knowledge than the sprinkling that goes on in public schools.
And like most message boards on the internet, Christians get savaged here all the time. Quite frankly, it's getting old. Christians seem to be the only group left that is fair game for attacks and ridicule of their religion. The whole point of Christianity is that man is corrupted by sin and that he can't attain salvation by his own good works and deeds. Only by the grace and mercy of God can he receive salvation. Even Christians get blinded by greed, lust, covetousness, and all the other sins. This is especially true in a society where such sins are normalized and even celebrated. The focus of Christianity is Jesus Christ, not the followers.
It is truly sad when a Christian falls into this kind of well-publicized sin, and brings Christ himself into disrepute among non-believers. There are many verses about that in the Bible. But there is an "upside" to hypocrisy. The very fact that someone can be accused of "hypocrisy" means that that person has a moral standard by which he can be judged. It's amazing how this man's greatest sin on this board appears not to be trying to cheat his bank out of money he promised them; it's the fact that he's a hypocrite. This is the telling state of American society; there appears to be almost no sin left (except maybe child porn and molestation) except for hypocrisy. Believe it or not, there are actually worse sins than hypocrisy.
Yeah, I went to some school board meetings.
I remember one in particular. The board said that, if their levy didn't pass, they'd have to cut the athletic programs. They knew where the hot button was and it generated a shit storm.
So, what did The People do? They told the board to cut the advanced academic programs, which is exactly what the board did. No tax increase, sports programs remain, academic programs cut.
After all, making the few sacrifice for the many is what democracy is all about, isn't it?
Joy--GMTA
OhNoNotAgain writes:
"not appreciate the solid dose of leftism/PC that accompanies much teaching"
What ? Did I just wake up in the 90's again ?
OhNoNotAgain | 05.02.08 - 10:01 am | #
Well, I don't know. If you have kids in (most) public schools and do not note that PC (and leftist) perspectives dominate, it definitely does sound like you slept through most of the '00s!
Now granted, you may think this is a good thing and of course you are entitled to that perception. But not to recognize the mostly onesided nature of the presented material is different.
I can grab a handy HS history book or literature "reading list" and email you specifics if desired. Just let me know where!
Christians seem to be the only group left that is fair game for attacks and ridicule of their religion.
Obviously you haven't googled on Islam recently.
Christians seem to be the only group left that is fair game for attacks and ridicule of their religion.
Oh yes, the persecution syndrome. That's getting old too.
My objection, mostly, comes from the fact that schools aren't just about academics. It's about socialization, exposure to alternate ways of thinking, cultures, and all the rest that goes with it. The most useful parts of my education came from interactions with others outside the classrooms. What was inside was important too, but I learned about how to fit into social situations and how to work with others in those situations...you know, just like in real life.
Unless, of course, I had mp experience , but then I'd send my kid to a private school. Which is probably what I'd opt to do now anyhow, seeing as how the public ones don't seem to be interested in any sort of academic rigor but, instead, getting people out the door and having their funding stats intact.
From my experience, there are 3 kinds of homeschoolers. There are homeschoolers who for whatever reason think the schools are failing their children and know that they can do better. There are homeschoolers who don't want their kids exposed to certain ideas or people. And there are neglectful ****s who are too lazy to properly care for their children or even register them in school. The 2nd and 3rd groups give the first a bad name.
Simple rule of thumb, if you are doing business with someone, the more they mention God or Jesus, the more careful you have to be. The probability you are dealing with a fraud is directly proportional to the number of times Jesus is invoked.
Dirk | Homepage | 05.02.08 - 9:40 am
This information is included in textbooks on fraud auditing, which I have read, as one of the most predictable way to determine a person is lying.
"Unfortunately, Mr. Prang's Big-Box Christianity is the dominant form in the U.S. right now. Given some hard times, that may change."
Well, that is something good that could come out of this recession!
WTFWJD?
Homeschooling goes with survivalism and all that retreat from society/head for the hills crap. This is why everyone laughs at homeschoolers and always will. I've got a simpler way to fix education: reinstate segregation.
yours in Christ,
Isamu
Christians seem to be the only group left that is fair game for attacks and ridicule of their religion. The whole point of Christianity is that man is corrupted by sin and that he can't attain salvation by his own good works and deeds.
Granted, this isn't the forum for it, but, yes, some might take issue with that point. Nor is the link between that proposition and, say, sacking Constantinople, immediately clear.
But on topic, this Prang guy may have made some boneheaded moves, but you've got to give him credit for taking responsibility for his own mess and disclaiming any desire for a bailout. As long as the mortgage agreement allows him to walk away, it is the lender's problem, and I'll give credit to Prang for not wanting to make it the taxpayers' problem.
I've said before: if the lender wrote an agreement under which a borrower like Prang can walk away, and the borrower chooses to do so, the lender is entitled to whatever recourse the agreement gives them (taking into consideration the prevailing law).
If the lender wants more recourse, they should have put it in the contract. If they didn't, lesson learned: next time, get a better lawyer.
Just to clarify.
Mr. Prang is not a mortgage broker. He is a W2 employee of a psuedo net branch/mortgage broker. When he goes to the settlement table none of the checks are made out to him or any entity he owns or controls.
Carteret is one of the more benign net branches but still indicative of the Wild West culture that's been allowed to develop unchecked.
I would be surprised if Mr. Prang's home was licensed as a branch for originating mortgages but its possible. Mostly the states and Wholesalers couldn't care less. The only partner in the system who cared were the credit reporting agencies. They would check to make sure there were certain minimum standards, signage, separate and secure facilities for pulling credit, etc. If you didn't want a sign hanging on your house you just didn't tell the state or CRA's and pretended you worked out of the Brokers office. Mostly the states looked the other way.
As far as a W2 employee's credit, it's something that never comes to the attention of the lenders. Only the brokers credit is checked. As it should be.
The problem with this model is that Eric Weinstein has no idea where or who his employees are, who is exposing him to buy-backs, who is jeapordising his licenses or his reputation. There is no supervision of Mr. Prang and only some superficial level of training. And this is one of the better companies!
I cringe at the possibility that Mr. Prang may have decimated the finances of his own congregation but we have built a REIC system of networking monkeys where actual knowledge and experience have no value. Not to the borrowers, not to the lenders, and not to the state. I can see him banging everyone into option arms so they can tithe a little more each month. And you know there was some morally superior Realtor with his/her greasy little fingers in there. And they probably honestly felt good about what they were doing and will continue to do so. Ignorance is bliss.
On another note, who wants to be home all day with the kids and the wife? Did any one ever leave that house? I'd slit my wrists.
And why don't fundies like trees?
"If you're ever doing business with a religious son of a bitch, get it in writing."
-William S. Burroughs.
One of the most sucessful home builers in my neck of the woods is a fundie/born again type. On his ubiquitous TV&radio spots, he touts his firm as "a Christian-based company" (whatever that means).
He also fancied himself the next Walt Disney, until he got sued by none other than the people at Disney for a blatant copyright infringement.
A rather fascinating article was writen about him a while back, its kind of long but worth a read.
It never ceases to amaze me how such a rube could achieve such success based on little other than wearing his (very popular) religion on his sleeve.
Do unto others, then split.
Whenever I dealt in business with a person who invoked God/Jesus often, I'd look at their WWJD bracelet and know it meant What Would Judas Do? Kept me out of some bad deals.
Beware the Fish...
I only had one check bounce on me this year....
she - an attorney teaching classes on irresponsible fathers,
he - a youth minister.
I'm always amazed at these people who are supposed to be "christian" and yet are completely blind to the hypocrisy their actions indicate.
Whenever some businessman/woman implies or flat-out tells you that you can trust them because they are such a good Christian, hold on to your wallet and run don't walk away from them.
I'd look at their WWJD bracelet and know it meant What Would Judas Do? Kept me out of some bad deals.
Amen, brother
It never ceases to amaze me how such a rube could achieve such success based on little other than wearing his (very popular) religion on his sleeve.
PT Barnum said there's one born every minute.
Of course, the size of the reproductive population was a lot smaller back then.
One of the biggest churches around here is actually occupying a onetime big-box store that became medium-box and obsolete when the REALLY big box stores came to town.
I don't go to this church or any other church but it does seem to do a lot of good, providing a lot of real support and real help out of poverty and addiction to people in need.
Not all Christians are hypocrites.
And not all homeschoolers are religious wingnuts. My wife homeschools our kids for a number of reasons, one of which is, we don't want big-box eduction for them and we can't afford private school tuition if we hope to save anything for their college.
Christians seem to be the only group left that is fair game for attacks and ridicule of their religion.
You haven't been paying attention to what right-wingers regularly say about Muslims, have you?
I do understand why some parents home-school, such as when the kids are really, really smart and the public schools cannot provide instruction at their level; however there's a stigma attached because a lot, a lot, a lot of home-schooling parents are teaching their kids nonsense like creationism and want to indoctrinate their kids with fundamentalist bullshit while shielding them from any possible negative influences in the outside world.
Even Christians get blinded by greed, lust, covetousness, and all the other sins.
Then certain types of Christians should stop implying or flat-out telling us that they are superior to everyone else.
It's really a shame what the fundamentalist right-wingers have done to the brand of Christianity.
OK you got me going and I apologize in advance for the OT post.
Girlfriend was telling me last night about the time she worked in an office full of born-again Xian zealots. They harangued her mercilessly about joining their cult. When she finally and diplomatically told them she was not interested in what they were selling, she instantly became the office black sheep, she was treated horribly and run out of there in a most un-Christian fashion.
I as well have repeatedly encountered this obscene treatment in the workplace, at the hands of zealous Christians and zealous Catholics. I am willing to live and let live, but they are not. If you are not one of them, you are The Enemy.
Jesus, save me from your followers.
They claim that opting out of the system is the only way, and it's downright ignorant. Ever heard of a school board meeting ? Meeting with the teachers ? Nah, you'd rather take your ball and go home instead of actually improving the system.
Well, with my two older kids, I did go to the school for 7 a.m. meetings with teachers, specialists etc. Everyone seemed very dedicated, they all said the right things, educational goals for my kids were set--but not much really changed. I understand why. If your kids need individual attention (because they are gifted or because they are challenged) they aren't likely to get tht at school because the school isn't set up that way and it's not fair to blame the teachers.
I suppose I could pester the school board, run for the board myself, run for the legislature, run for governor etc., but meanwhile my kids are moving through the system. They need better education NOW.
So my younger ones are getting homeschool. My eight-year-old reads Harry Potter and studies ancient egypt. She may head for school at some point, but right now it doesn't seem to make any sense to do that.
I saw the first foreclosure notice in my neighborhood on the door of a nearby house last night. The house looks vacant and the yard is unkempt. Looks like a walk away candidate. Too bad too; they spent the last year fixing up the house (new windows, paint, landscaping . . .). They bought near the peak and were almost certainly underwater on the mortgage -- particularly if they used a HELOC for the improvements.
Headlines . . . coming soon to a neighborhood near you!
Matt in Huntington Beach.
So my younger ones are getting homeschool. My eight-year-old reads Harry Potter and studies ancient egypt.
congrats, your kid is going to grow up to be an aspy weirdo just like you.
"those people outside are scary"
yours in Christ,
Isamu
Last thought on this topic: I am an agnostic (though Richard Dawkins would classify me as an atheist) and I am far, far more 'Christian' as far as my ethics and values and the way I treat people, than a lot of the Christians I know and read about.
One does not need to believe in magical sky-beings in order to live a good and ethical life; as a matter of fact, I have observed that there is often an inverse correlation between one's public displays of religiosity and their ethics/morals.
And why don't fundies like trees?
Stinky | 05.02.08 - 10:53 am | #
Afraid of the dryads.
Heh...this is in my hometown...
We do have one of the old segregationist academies which went defunct and was resurrected by the erstwhile 'homeschoolers' as a 'Christian' academy - what these folks are mainly about is the same thing the Amish and FLDS are after, albeit to a far lesser extreme: isolation from the larger society which surrounds them, with an emphasis on information control. As it has ever been with authoritarian structures, it will ever be.
That said: their "Christianity" on the sleeve is less the norm here than 65 miles to the south, in the home of Jerry Falwell and Liberty University - where you get a lot more of that psuedo-moralistic bigotry. My personal experiences match the wisdom of the audit texts - be extra cautious when dealing with anyone who wraps themselves in the bible. Inherently moral folks (ie, those with an operating internal sense of right an wrong) don't need an external power structure to impose it on them.
I'm waiting to see the carnage really develop around here...the ski resort he mentions - Wintergreen - is imploding right now. At least two "walk-aways" (not really) up there are Realtors who've been foreclosed.
One does not need to believe in magical sky-beings in order to live a good and ethical life; as a matter of fact, I have observed that there is often an inverse correlation between one's public displays of religiosity and their ethics/morals.
rnato, sprung | 05.02.08 - 11:41 am | #
I completely agree. Although you do realize that you're going to burn in a lake of fire for eternity, because Jesus loves you.
That said, I suspect RacerX is right. I'd be shocked if this guy has a net worth of 47 cents. But then I'm skeptical of a lot of stories I hear about folks who "can afford" their mortgages but just choose to walk.
His net worth probably consists of what he knows it will take to be able to continue raising that family on one income. That change is gonna be tough.
I would hope that other mortgage brokers took their huge salaries and paid off what debts they could while they were riding high. A good lesson for anyone.
I also think you're right, it seems like a lot of the walk away stories are about those who are now so hopelessly unemployed - realtors and brokers - that they've lost all hope anyway.
CR & Tanta-
This is only one person that you can certify as a 'walk away'.
One person does not make an epidemic...
ROFL!
My objection, mostly, comes from the fact that schools aren't just about academics. It's about socialization, exposure to alternate ways of thinking, cultures, and all the rest that goes with it.
HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!
Ooooh. I was "socialized" at school in the 1970s. Need we say more?
ipodius, I am beginning to believe that you are an idealist.
Well given the other public "christain" leaders and business people, at least we can say they are consistent in their actions. Do as I say, not as I do should be the motto especially of our President and Treasury secretary and Carteret as well. Perhaps we should make this the 11th commandment?
This is why I gave up formal religion a long time ago.
believe in magical sky-beings
Hey - just because I worship Quetzalcoatl doesn't mean you have to make fun of me.
A good lesson in your story here, Tanta. Do what you can, when you can do it, as long as you can.
Tanta,
"Perhaps I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue."
Awesome "Airplane" ref! Though IIRC it's "looks like I picked the wrong week...."
I'm trying to work "There Will Be Blood" references into my meetings, these days.
...Christians seem to be the only group left that is fair game for attacks and ridicule of their religion.
please add Aztecs to the list
This is why I gave up formal religion a long time ago.
Well, you are halfway there, calhousingbear, but you don't even need informal/unconventional religion.
I'm trying to work "There Will Be Blood" references into my meetings, these days.
That's awesome!
"Drainage!"
"I drink your milkshake!"
"I am the third revelation!"
"I'd like it better if you didn't think I was stupid."
That film continues to grow on me.
"We love our public schools here in western NY."
Really? We just moved from southern NY to TX in part because the public schools sucked in NY. Meetings with teachers and the PTA were of limited utility; teacher quality had a huge variance and, to be frank, so did parent quality.
Don't know if this thread can be rerailed out of the homeschool/religious stereotypes, but let's give it a go:
For those who doubt whether this person was a true ruthless walkaway (hereafter TRW) (and that includes me in the doubting category), would we expect TRWs to actually talk to the media? Only if the mortgage is non-recourse, I guess, otherwise, it seems you're just giving evidence to the creditors to go after you.
I would expect (more stereotypes, I know) a TRW to keep their head down and not talk to the media. TRWs would seem to me likely already to know how to adhere to the 11th commandment (don't get caught), so they would be shunning publicity, not seeking it.
This makes the Jose Canseco case interesting, since he's going to get publicity regardless. Maybe enough that the media will verify if he does indeed has the assets/income that really make its "ruthless". And while we may not want to confine our sample to people already famous, there may not a choice--the rest may be too anecdotal/unlikely for belief.
Sounds a lot like fraud to me.
rnato, sprung -
Wait til you see the Shnapster's next video - "There will be Granite".
It's still in post-production.
I can't blame anyone for being disillusioned with American-style Christianity. We've been heavily infected by the culture around us. If you want to see what it should really look like, look to the Christians of Africa, China, North Korea, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, etc. Although ridicule is a very minor version of persecution, I would never compare the ridicule I see here in America on a daily basis with what our brothers and sisters overseas are experiencing.
As far as "withdrawing", "retreating", "surrendering" our kids by homeschooling... I wonder what you leftists would do if the right-wing Christians really did take over the public school system? I bet you'd be heading for the hills, too! Someone talked about the "nonsense" we teach our kids. Well, try to look at it this way: for every right-wing, Christian, fundamentalist parent who takes his kids out of public school to teach them at home, that is one more parent who is NOT trying to force their style of education on YOUR kids at public expense!
See the web page: http://www.schoolandstate.org
The Alliance for the Separation of School and State. Their premise is that, even though we do have our disagreements, the reason we don't have Balkan-style warfare over religion is that we have freedom of conscience in choosing our religions. Education is (or should be) an extension of one's religious (or non-religious) world-view. If we had freedom in education like we do religion, we wouldn't have all the fights over who gets to decide what to teach with the government tax dollars.
Not all Christians are hypocites.
Even those who are probably are not hypocrites all the time, John, and I expect Mr. Prang has many redeeming qualities.
But in this case his karma ran over his dogma.
congrats, your kid is going to grow up to be an aspy weirdo just like you.
When I was a kid in the 1950s, every kid had a quick retort for any other kid who made fun of his/her way of doing things: "It's a free country, isn't it?" This was a very common expression. I haven't heard it nearly as much in more recent times.
Not all Christians are hypocrites.
Look at it independent of creed: there's a correlation between being a loud-mouthed God-botherer (of any stripe) and hypocrisy. It offers so many more opportunities.
My favorite part from Tanta's link to Mr. Prang's comment is this part of the original post:
"If you do borrow, you must pay back all of the debt. It is a sin to borrow and not repay."
with which Mr. Prang takes no issue.
John Stark,
Great point.
Maybe we don't hear "it's a free country" anymore because most people don't really think it is or want it to be. They (many Christians and non-Christians alike) want to control other people's lives through external control, rather than by persuasion and peaceful dialog.
When I was a kid in the 1950s, every kid had a quick retort for any other kid who made fun of his/her way of doing things: "It's a free country, isn't it?" This was a very common expression. I haven't heard it nearly as much in more recent times.
back to your hugbox, Melvin.
BG: "Meetings with teachers and the PTA were of limited utility; teacher quality had a huge variance and, to be frank, so did parent quality."
And this is different in Texas? I thought Lake Wobegon was in Minnesota.
the reason we don't have Balkan-style warfare over religion is that we have freedom of conscience in choosing our religions.
You are entitled to your own religion.
You are not entitled to your own facts.
There's a reason they call it 'education' not 'indoctrination'.
Creationism is a fairy-tale. If you teach your kids that the value of pi is 3 because a 2000 year old book of myths and legends says so, you are dooming your kids to a life of ignorance.
If we as a nation decided to allow this absurd 'school-state' separation you propound, we will become a nation of ignoramuses and the Chinese and Indians will eat our lunch. Well, at least, faster than they are on course to already.
I assure you that China and India are not indulging in this kind of foolish nonsense.
want to control other people's lives through external control, rather than by persuasion and peaceful dialog.
That should read "want to control other people's lives through external control, rather than by convincing them to make a heartfelt change through persuasion and peaceful dialog."
(Not a Freudian slip, I promise!)
Education is (or should be) an extension of one's religious (or non-religious) world-view.
That is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.
If we all believed that, we'd still think that the Earth was the center of the universe and the stars were pinholes in the firmament of heaven.
If we as a nation decided to allow this absurd 'school-state' separation you propound, we will become a nation of ignoramuses and the Chinese and Indians will eat our lunch. Well, at least, faster than they are on course to already.
I assure you that China and India are not indulging in this kind of foolish nonsense.
The reason the Chinese and Indians are "eating our lunch" is not because some families teach their kids creationism over evolution. It's because as a nation, we value cheap crap over having a strong nation.
Education is (or should be) an extension of one's religious (or non-religious) world-view.
I cannot adequately express my utter contempt and disgust with this point of view.
It is thanks to idiots like you that we have had to endure 8 wasted years of the worst presidency this nation has ever been forced to endure.
It's because as a nation, we value cheap crap over having a strong nation.
one does not build a strong nation by teaching our children that fairy tales are facts.
one does not build a strong nation by teaching our children that fairy tales are facts.
here's a fairytale:
"all men are created equal"
shorter dochood: "facts are stupid things."
That is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.
If we all believed that, we'd still think that the Earth was the center of the universe and the stars were pinholes in the firmament of heaven.
Science can only answer "how." It can never answer "why." That is the province of philosophy and religion.
The most important questions that can be asked are:
1) How did we get here?
2) What is our purpose here?
3) Why do we act the way we do?
4) What happens to us when we die?
Science falls short in answering all of these questions. If we educate our children only from science and empiricism, we are creating "men without chests" (per C.S. Lewis).
Education is (or should be) an extension of one's religious (or non-religious) world-view.
This is the exact doctrine followed by the fundamentalist Muslims in Pakistan with their 'madrassahs' where the 'education' consists of reading the Quran.
Why don't you move there? It sounds like the ideal society for you.
dochood, the computer you are using was not invented by men who figured out how to build a computer by reading the Bible.
This is the exact doctrine followed by the fundamentalist Muslims in Pakistan with their 'madrassahs' where the 'education' consists of reading the Quran.
Why don't you move there? It sounds like the ideal society for you.
rnato, sprung,
I believe one day, you'll get the world you are asking for. I hope you like it. Just leave me and my family out of it.
I have a friend who recently ran walking away from his mortgage by me. He's doing okay financially at present but projects difficulty in a year. In the last six months he purchased a new car, flat screen, stereo system for work truck, clothes, and trips out of town. I told him walking away in his situation was fraud and theft. He said that I was too judgmental and rigid and he felt abused.
I believe one day, you'll get the world you are asking for. I hope you like it.
I know I will like it a lot better than the world we've been living with for the past several thousand years, dominated largely by religious ignorance and superstition.
I will repeat what I stated earlier, since you have no adequate answer: the computer you are using today was not invented by men who figured out how to do it by reading the Bible.
The medical science which enables you and your children to live long, healthy lives was not created by priests mumbling over crackers and wine, nor by philosophers navel-gazing over the meaning of life.
The car you drive to work was not invented by men who used Biblical texts as the basis for their research.
The public health standards which allow you to live free of the plague and dysentery and eat food in restaurants without fear of dying from food poisoning, did not come to be because of men in robes praying for God to save us from evil humors.
Mankind spent thousands of years studying the exact questions you claim are the most important, and yet there was little progress in elevating the wellbeing of our living conditions and our society until the Enlightenment... until mankind stopped trying to figure out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin and embraced science instead.
I tell you again... the values you advocate, where education is an extension of religion, are exactly those of the Wahhabi sect in Saudi Arabia and the Islamic extremists in Pakistan and the FLDS church pedophile compound in Texas.
It matters not whether your imaginary friend is called God or Allah or Jehovah. You are all birds of a feather. You worship a philosophy which enjoys the fruits of science and rationalism, all the while advocating a return to the days of ignorance and superstition.
damondidit:
Ask your friend why he hates America.
dochood:
"The most important questions that can be asked are [.]"
I support your right to think this. I don't agree. Please leave me and my family (and our shared government) out of your pursuit of your truths.
dochood, why doesn't God heal amputees?
I support your right to think this. I don't agree. Please leave me and my family (and our shared government) out of your pursuit of your truths.
I am. That's why we are homeschooling. And I'm not taking tax dollars to do it.
I have no children at all, nor do I ever plan to. I pay my property taxes gladly because I know that the future of our society depends upon properly educating our children in English, math, literature, history and science.
They should be free to believe whatever religion they like. If, after being instructed in science - INCLUDING evolution - they decide they don't believe in this or that, so be it. It's their loss and clearly they won't grow up to be a scientist if they don't think that evolution is true or quantum theory is true.
However, I'll be damned if I'll allow my education tax dollars to be used to teach religious foolishness like creationism or ID in our schools.
If this nation ever embraces your 'education as an extension of religion' philosophy, then it will deserve its fate, which will be to be crushed by the Chinese and Indians while we wallow in our ignorance.
However, I'll be damned if I'll allow my education tax dollars to be used to teach religious foolishness like creationism or ID in our schools.
You are still missing my point. I don't want your (or my) tax dollars going to support the teaching of ID or anti-evolutionism in schools, either. I want the freedom to teach my kids at home (at my expense) by the dictates of my conscience. I believe everyone, atheists and agnostics included, should have that right.
In fact, we do have that right. Homeschooling is legal in all 50 states. You seem to have a problem with this. That's where my problem with you lies. It's not enough that I teach my kids my beliefs at my own expense. My kids are actually cogs in some bigger wheel called "society," and if I teach them a different interpretation of the facts of science than you have, that somehow endangers our national security and global economic competitiveness.
If that's so, well too bad. Their my kids, and the US courts (currently) say I have the right to homeschool them, even if that means that I teach them that awful thing called "Christianity". If that sticks in your craw, tough.
Look at it independent of creed: there's a correlation between being a loud-mouthed God-botherer (of any stripe) and hypocrisy. It offers so many more opportunities.
Yup. I've reported a story or two about people who entrusted their investment portfolio to that nice godfearing man from their church. This often ends badly. The Attorney General's office has a bland sort of generic name for it: "affinity fraud."
Is there no one left with a sense of personal responsibility. My father's generation would have sucked it up and kept a roof over their family's head.
You are entitled to your own religion.
You are not entitled to your own facts.
What, haven't you heard of the internet? Everyone gets their own facts now.
Yup. I've reported a story or two about people who entrusted their investment portfolio to that nice godfearing man from their church. This often ends badly.
Indeed.
dochood, teaching your kids about your particular flavor of God is your business and yours alone.
But do you really think it's a wise thing to teach your kids that pi is equal to 3 or 2+2 is 5 or the earth is flat, just because the Bible says so?
You seem to (I think) understand the difference between the spheres of religion and science, though I would disagree profoundly that science is not equipped to answer the timeless questions you posed up above.
So why do you want to teach your kids that the world was created in 6 consecutive 24-hour periods, 6000 years ago?
Do you really think it would be a good thing for this country if everyone agreed that education is an extension of religion? We'd be just as poverty-stricken and ignorant as the Afghanis or Pakistanis if everyone thought like you.
How fortunate for you that those of us who recognize the value of rationalism and science won't deny the fruits of our labor to those who prefer the fruits of ignorance and superstition.
why doesn't God heal amputees?
He does. Unfortunately, only lizards and crabs are deemed worthy.
So why do you want to teach your kids that the world was created in 6 consecutive 24-hour periods, 6000 years ago?
So, um... did you, like, break into my house in the middle of the night to peek at my curriculum to come to this conclusion? I never said that taught my kids what you claim (in fact, I don't).
Do you really think it would be a good thing for this country if everyone agreed that education is an extension of religion? We'd be just as poverty-stricken and ignorant as the Afghanis or Pakistanis if everyone thought like you.
Everyone did think like me up until about 1925 (Darwin wasn't popularized until then... Scopes Monkey Trial). And most had some thought of God until the 1960's. We did pretty well in science. I believe that studying science is practically a duty for the Christian. Using science to improve lives in a positive way is a high calling.
How fortunate for you that those of us who recognize the value of rationalism and science won't deny the fruits of our labor to those who prefer the fruits of ignorance and superstition.
I haven't posted a lot about my beliefs here. You make an awful lot of assumptions (driven by your preconceived notions) about what I do and don't believe.
It's probably about time to return this thread to its regularly scheduled programming...
You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.
--Wrongful use should definitely include using His name to sell things and profit from the sale of said things.
An altar of earth thou shalt make unto Me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt-offerings, and thy peace-offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen; in every place where I cause My name to be mentioned I will come unto thee and bless thee.
--This tithing with money thing is suspicious anyway. Money is too fungible. The Christian system would be cleaner and less corrupt if they went back to offering meat. (and I dont mean the Jesus meat, i.e., the Eucharist)
Well, the God I believe in isn't short on cash, mister. --U2
rnato, sprung--all those things are true, but why does it matter whether we live long healthy lives with modern conveniences borne of a rational interpretation of the universe? Why do we even try to better our collective lot? Why and how do aggregations of carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, et.al, care, when formed into a sentient being, that their kids survive?
Scientific materialism/rationalism offers no answers. And please, to say it is to propagate the species is circular reasoning (as Dawkins, et al does). Why bother w/ species propagation if we are only just a boiling batch of chemicals? Something else, it seems, is going on.
Back to topic: First client I had as a closing attorney was an outfit advertising on the local christian radio as "the christian mortgage broker". They had prayer meetings/bible classes everyday. The company imploded about a year and a half after I started doing work for them. I (and several other lawyers)ended up being dragged through a lawsuit for about $150,000 (for me) of $3m they had borrowed on their warehouse line and failed to fund loans w/. Unfortunately, some of the money had gone through our trust accounts, and the bank was casting about looking for someone, like our insurance carriers, to sue. After $30,000 in legal fees, I was completely vindicated, as were the rest of the attorneys.
Nowadays (ten years later) I never do business anymore w/ anyone that feels compelled to tell me they are "Christian". If I can't tell it by their actions, hearing them say it won't convince me, and just makes me suspicious of their motives.
Dirk: "Simple rule of thumb, if you are doing business with someone, the more they mention God or Jesus, the more careful you have to be. "
Yep; that's my experience. It is like a rattlesnake's rattle - there to warn you. It isn't that Christians are bad risks. It's that people who talk about how they are Christians are bad risks,
mp: "He graduated four years ago and recently eviscerated a 40-year-old Harvard graduate."
That was conjure's contribution to the curriculum.
WWJD?
huh/
Think WWSD...
What Would Scooby Do?
Oh, man you bring back bad memories of this summer job I had at a Dutch Reformed run company in Michigan back in my college days. I survived because during week two when my office-mate asked "Have you accepted the lord Jesus as your savior?"
I replied, "No, but I can see you will be making my life hell, so who does that make you?" That was the end of it, funny enough.
But to return vaguely to topic. In general, anytime someone feels the need to point out what should be inherently obvious, it's a huge red flag that they have a problem in that area. From used car dealers offering "honest deals" to employers who have "empowerment initiatives".
Wow.....
This started out funny.
Conseco is not a good example of a RWA, since he isn't walking away from a mortgage or just a mortgage -- he is walking away from a judgment on top of a mortgage(s). When he said he didn't own it, it wasn't this barely abstract notion that although it is in his name, the banks who hold the loans "own" it. It is that someone sued him, won, and they actually do own any possible equity. He probably doesn't even know he is underwater.
I also think Prang's idea of 'having enough money' is that he temporarily has/had enough credit to get current.
I gotta say, needing a biblical justification for leverage is hard for me to comprehend. I prefer the more direct approach of Rev Ike. More like the religious version of Gorden Gekko's 'Greed is good'.
Reverend Ike - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ike's intuitive understanding of the importance of luck is a rather simplistic version of 'Fooled by Randomness.' Ike seems to have bought real estate at the bottom. Let's see if he has the luck to sell at the top.
Without a doubt, one of the most entertaining threads in a long time. Really restores my lack of faith in just about everything. Mixing money, religion and politics always results in something explosive. BTW, best abbreviation of the year has to be WTFWJD? Brilliant!!!!!
Wow. Ben Bernanke must have a spot in heaven right next to St Peter reserved for himself right now, what with all the money he is creating for God.
Tanta writes:
I was thinking "Youth Pastor".
Nowhere near enough money in that.
Everybody knows you don't become a youth pastor for the money, you do it for the chicks.
Everybody knows you don't become a youth pastor for the money, you do it for the chicks.
Ick. Ew. Ick.
The 'Walk Away' problem is a serious threat to the whole real estate and mortgage system.
I think authorities need to take action to make it much harder to 'walk away'.
What can be done?
I think a good way would be to create large, long-term or even permanent damage to your credit rating.
If you know that you can never buy a house again when you 'walk away' would that solve the 'walk away' problem?
"I think a good way would be to create large, long-term or even permanent damage to your credit rating.
If you know that you can never buy a house again when you 'walk away' would that solve the 'walk away' problem?"
Yes, and it would harken the return of indentured servitude/slavery and debtor's prisons.
But really, what is an underwater McMansion but a fancy debtor's prison, unless you have the option to walk away?
A way to solve the 'walk away' problem is to change the non-recourse character of foreclosures.
If your other assets and income are at risk would you 'walk away'?
This would require a change of law. I think authorities need to consider this seriously.
Tanta --
WHERE ARE YOU AND WHY AREN'T YOU STOPPING THIS MESS????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Start pulling the plug please.
dochood 1:16 (almost like a book and chapter...)
1) How did we get here?
Well, it all started with some primal ooze, evolved over billions of years, into apes and eventually us. Are you a talkin heads fan by the way?
2) What is our purpose here?
As with all species, survival of oneself and one's species. (ie mating and creating spawn).
3) Why do we act the way we do?
Some just b/c some preacher tells them how. Others, free will.
4) What happens to us when we die?
We become worm food.
In my Father's house there are many McMansions.
DonKei writes:
Yes, and it would harken the return of indentured servitude/slavery and debtor's prisons.
Sure. Bankruptcy laws allow someone to wipe the slate clean and start over without debt.
I agree that should not be changed.
HOWEVER: What we're talking about here is people who have enough income or assets to be responsible for their mortgage. Except they don't feel like being responsible any more, because it's not profitable.
We should attach severe consequences to such behavior.
Uncle Ar:
Amen Brotha! Those are my answers to the same questions.
and yeah, "We're on a road to nowhere..."
Water Underground has haunted me and echoed my life...since the moment I heard it.
Cheers!
WOW: I thot i was the only one screwed over by "Christians" in business dealings.
I apologize to all commenters for getting a little carried away with my back-and-forth with doc. I guess I've just had about enough with religious foolishness, especially considering what we have been through the last 8 years.
renato, no need to apologize.
I was fixin' to call upon the Mighty Flying Spaghetti Monster to smite doc with one of Her garlic butter dipped appendages.
"HOWEVER: What we're talking about here is people who have enough income or assets to be responsible for their mortgage. Except they don't feel like being responsible any more, because it's not profitable.
We should attach severe consequences to such behavior."
Unfortunately, it takes 3 creditors (or evidence of less than 12 creditors) owed $10k or more to file an involuntary bankruptcy. Maybe add another category so that a deficiency on a secured loan, if large enough (say $50k), can be filed by a single creditor, regardless of total number of creditors?
I think the sleeper of this story was Prang's comment "Why take the chance to buy something that a year from now could be worth a lot less"...logically then, he should stay away from: the stock market, bonds, futures, derivities, and any other type of investment product or asset, as they "could be worth a lot less" a year after his purchase of them. That someone would think there was no risk in re investing (even in '04/05) provides a real window in whats going on, or usually, whats not going on in the ole noggin..
(Back to regularly scheduled programming...)
If Tanta is right, and walk-aways aren't really all that prevalent, it might be a good time for someone, I'm not sure who, to publish some really nasty consequences against those who "walk-away."
I'm not sure who would have the power to do it. Perhaps the credit bureaus? Couldn't they implement a 10-year consequence on your credit score for walking away without trying to work with the bank? Would Congress have the power to pass a law providing some kind of nasty penalty?
I don't know how people here feel about it, but over at Housing Panic, they seem to be cheering on this kind of behavior. I'm a little worried that by publicizing it, whether its prevalent or not, it will become a self-fulfilling.... um.... prediction. It just seems to me that if everyone who is having trouble pulls this stunt at the same time... well, you get the picture.
The whole economy seems to run on trust. Trust goes out the window when personal responsibility does.
Exactly, if this 'walk away' thing turns into a real panic it's inevitable that something nasty will have to get done against it. That may require passing a law.
Have any people of authority talked about this?
I'm a mtg broker who has rented for most of this decade. It stopped making sense to buy right around 2001, 2002 at the very latest. After that, prices detached from any reality and soared until 2005. 2006 was the real estate market crash and 2007 the financial crash and resulting credit risk panic.
The reason it made sense for me is because I am single and like a lot of cash flow. If I were a family man, I would have probably bought like everybody else as it was more than financial ignorance that brought us here. It was the prevailing mentality that ownership was the norm and renting was stupid. Now renters look like fricken rocket scientists.
Homeownership is the American Dream but it is not without a price and some sacrifice to buy the property. Now that lending is sober again, the market will come back down to earth once seller denial is beaten into submission. I sure wouldn't want to be a seller for at least another decade or more.
EJ-
LOL. The way to "stop the walkaways" is for the banks to require substantial downpayments.
But that ship's already sailed this time around.
Better luck next time.
"Education is (or should be) an extension of one's religious (or non-religious) world-view. If we had freedom in education like we do religion, we wouldn't have all the fights over who gets to decide what to teach with the government tax dollars."
OK fine. But if you should find yourself needing a surgeon, I expect you to limit your search to one who has been homeschooled.
A good Christian walkaway.
On Water, perhaps.
"And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."
Y'know, I almost (all-mmost) feel a twinge fer Mr. Prang. Here now, he got into a hot business---relitting---kept his nose clean, put that clean probiscus to the grindstone, even exercised some entrepreneurial gumption cashing out his sole real asset to start a hands-on side business . . . and here he is. The Invisible Hand plucked up his petite bourgeois rentier dreams along with his assets, stuffed into the May of Iniquitous Debt, chewed them up, and spit out the bones as fertilizer for the increase of other men. So what does he do? Well, yes, he sins against the banks who gave him a hand up in life, yes---but this is soooo Christian, isn't it. Sin now; beg the forgiveness of the Christ; receive absolution (for nothing, Jesus loves yah, baby); and get back after it again. He sounds sooo committed, but to what, pray tell, other than his own sweet tokus?
Mr. Prang isn't a relitter: he's 'in the business,' but didn't even know what a deed-in-lieu is. Or, one can surmise, much of anything else about the business beside where his name goes on the commission statement. He will be soon back at it selling some other soapbox or its contents to 'the community,' i.e. others who see the fish on his lapel and think that makes him a better man to do business with. So when he loses more money in later ventures for those other good Christians that doesn't make him a bad man; no sir, it does not.
Lessee on his net: selling his ridiculously over-priced above, remodel nothwithstanding, for $699K "wouldn't clear his debt," so he cashed out all of his second and his HELOC to fund this side business. Where he "was foreclosed on," so other than some minor assets like a vehicle or tools he lost his stake there. Which means he is dependent upon his income as a relitter, plus whatever his wife brings in which, if she's a Christian homeschooler, is likely nothing. From that, he has to pay on $725K worth of mortgages, all of which were taken out near the market top so he does not figure to have good rates or structure, likely a ballooning ARM if he got it from AHM. Mr. Prang may be able to pay as of today by burning through the last of his cash and other assets, but by Summer he is highly unlikely to be able to pay. So, this isn't a walkaway, it's a run-away from a financial firetrap with the curtains in the backroom already aflame.
Most who advertise religious credentials in their business are just trolling for their next affinity fraud victim.
to the homeschoolers:
bravo for sticking to your guns. it's good to have diversity IMO.
renato: lighten up on these people. You don't know the specifics of how or why they homeschool.
it is a free country, and I support anybody's right to live their own life by their own morals. moreover why do I care when I don't have to pay for it, and when it doesn't affect me in the least.
I know that I would homeschool my kids if my local school taught from the bible or koran or torah, so I support and understand the RIGHTS of those people on the other side of the aisle.
in general, homeschoolers can do quite well academically... in fact, I've rarely heard that as the big "problem". instead, it was more of their difficulty "fitting in" later in life.
I'm sure most of us remeber kids who were homeschooled who went to college with us... my college used to have TONS of homeschoolers, and I never met one that was anywhere near normal. they could interact with adults in academic settings and get A's, but forget about "hanging out" with kids their age.
but those were the "homeschool pioneers", and thus it was truly only the fringes who did it. thus it wasn't a surpise that the homeschool kids didn't know how to act around their peers. it likely had more to do with their parents than the actual homeschooling...
but I've heard this is changing. first, because more and more people are homeschooling (so it's not only the far out kooks doing it), and also because there are homeschool associations etc to help teach the kids how to be kids.
as for religion vs education:
there are a lot of areas where one can contribute to society, and yet not believe that there were ever dinosaurs on the earth as example.
for instance, I don't care if my colleagues (I'm an MD) believe in creationism or armageddon or not, so long as they also believe that god created scientists and science and microscopic organisms (that go through evolution rapidly) and antibacterials and antivirals and transplants and chemotherapy and all the rest.
and so long as they restrict prayer to willing patients as an ADJUNCT to conventional therapy and not INSTEAD of conventional therapy. (e.g. let us pray as we do your radiation therapy)
many/most of the scientists of faith that I know are pretty reasonable. they typically find a way to reconcile the differences. Some simply believe that god created the earth through the big bang, and that he created Adam through evolution, and so on.
for example, when I was religious, that's what I believed. I simply thought "hmm... if lived during the iron age and god showed me a vision about the big bang and creation of earth, is it inconceivable that when I wrote down what I saw that I'd say it was 7 days?" I mean, you gotta admit, "First there was light" is an awful lot like "big bang"
and I'd guess that most "true believers" don't become scientists because it's not in their belief system. so they can become lawyers and social workers and artists and police officers and bloggers and trapeze artists and all sorts of other very productive things
works for me.
Everyone did think like me up until about 1925 (Darwin wasn't popularized until then... Scopes Monkey Trial).
Anyone who asserts this as fact is not qualified to teach anyone else about history, even their own kids.