As far as the process and impact of a cancellation on new construction. My assumption is it goes like this:
Buyer puts down deposit for new home.
Builder starts building
At some point buyer walks.
builder keeps deposit.
Are their defined points in the process where cancellation occurs (prior to actually pouring the foundation) or do these cancellations mean that these homes are well on their way to completion?
Wachovia Corp (the fourth-largest U.S. bank, on Tuesday nearly doubled the size of its previously reported first-quarter loss because of a write-down on three contracts in its life insurance portfolio.
The company is now reporting a net loss available to common stockholders of $708 million, or 36 cents per share. On April 14, it reported a loss of $393 million, or 20 cents per share.
UBS unveiled a preliminary deal with U.S. asset manager BlackRock Inc (BLK.N) to sell for $15 billion a portfolio of subprime mortgages with a face value of $22 billion.
The bank said the sale was a signal the market for ailing U.S. real-estate loans is recovering.
UBS's new investment banking head, Jerker Johannson, said the layoffs would target weaker businesses, with some areas being cut by 50 percent and others, such as the municipal bonds unit, being sold or closed down.
He wants the lenders to take losses!! HA HA HA!! Okay, seriously, if they are taking losses it will only be when the Fed is forced to lower interest rates even further. The lenders OWN the Fed, now. They make the decisions. Who the hell does BB think he is? The master in control? Or a puppet?
So what the hell is that string dangling from his head?
If anyone thought there was a pause signal from the Fed, BB removed that signal with his cry for help to the lenders last night.
Cry all you want Ben, they won't help you without cheaper money.
And by this time Thursday, the Fed will be financing Target consumers. Nice, huh!
Are any large US based homebuilders active in China? There are suburban style developments being constructed on a massive scale there.
I know there are barriers to entry, but these builder do know how to put up houses quickly and cheaply.
If they didn't even try, you have to wonder what they were thinking.
Give CR a break. The iceberg isn't tearing any new holes in the hull. That's good news.
ac writes:
Wouldn't the cancellation rate be zero if they had no sales?
I predicted last year that one of the HBs would report a negative sales month by June. More cancellations than new contracts.
Doesn't matter. We've lost reliable quantitative resolution at this point. New home sales and cancellations at the individual home builder level are too coarse, too variable and too liable to manipulation to be used for anything except sentiment and general trend.
.
.
Many "no bids" at Las Vegas new homes auction last week. I was scheduled to go to this but didn't make it. Not really interested in a single family home but want a luxury condo on the strip for free.
It would be nice to know what DHI's gains were for selling call options (deposits) on the rapidly depreciating assets they're selling were. How much are they selling their calls for? Be nice if they were listed on the CBOE...
labour is so much cheaper in China that fast and cheap in the US isn't necessary fast and cheap in China. Add to that that a builder needs local contacts, not that i would alleged any corruption in the homebuilders trade, and it is a big question if it would be prudent for American builders to be in China
If I am not mistaken, China still does not allow the private ownership of land (this is a major stumbling block for 'traditional' capitalist companies). Additionally, the "products" we build are far outside the Chinese standard (too big and beyond utilitarian). US-style residential construction cannot compete with the Chinese model, in China.
Oil has Bernanke-blasted its way up to $121.49 now.
Please explain to me how the Fed sets the price of oil. I'd be interested in that analysis. If you are talking about the relative decline in the dollar vs. other currencies, and how the oil is priced in dollars, please take the percentage decline in the dollar and match that against the function that describes the rise in oil prices and then describe how much is attributable to the Fed's policy of interest rate cuts.
Then I want you to describe the economic impacts of NOT lowering interest rates, and describe the impact to the consumer of the prices changes on other goods relative to oil, and the aspect of the loss of income as it describes the changes to the employement rate due to the higher interest rate. Please also include your anaysis of the effect of re-finances, and the impact of mortgage rates on general discretionary income spending.
Then please do the math describing demand fluctuations and contraints on the price of oil, and factor in the contributions of demand from China, India, and other emerging economies.
Or you can just continue to spew "waaahhh waahhhh wahhhh everything that happens is all Ben's fault" all over the place. In fact, why don't you just paste that on your clipboard so that you now no longer have to type, as well as not think.
"Oil has Bernanke-blasted its way up to $121.49 now"
Our goverments policies along with a fiat currency durring a time of war has blasted oil prices up would be a better way of looking at it. Just like that housing bubble.
You can believe in the magical powers of the fed to create prosperity but the rest of the world does not have to.
I don't believe in anything except cogent analysis, no whining about the Fed with no context. I provided the context, but I don't expect anyone to actually do the analysis.
And "the world" isn't placing any value on anything. The markets are, because of the complex relationships between interest rates, the amount of money in circulation, and the relative values of economic fundamentals between banking systems. no one is voting here, the market sets the rates. This isn't a political discussion, it's an economic one.
This blog provides the context. We just had the largest housing bubble in history. It is a widely held belief that the fed's low low interest rates set off the bubble.
Careful now. I think Ipodius is taking flack because he continually states his beliefs as facts, yet dismisses other peoples beliefs because they are not facts.
While I won't accept your template for discussion, I do believe this is case where the fed has, willingly, undertaken to assist the financial network to repair their balance sheets at the cost of price inflation in certain commodities, including oil.
This does not, so far as I can see, reflect that the fed chair's character wants polishing [apologies to Lord Chesterfield] or that he has taken leave of his senses. Much of the name-calling here, I suspect, arises merely when the governors take a course which, however rational, doesn't meet with the approval of someone who shares none of Mr. Bernanke's responsibilities.
As to the mechanism whereby a lowered target rate appears in the form of a weakened dollar, I'm certain I don't need to retail the details to you of all people.
ipodius, good points... the relationships might be there but cant be measured... and as you mentioned there are other evils still lurking...
granted i'm not all for cutting to zero again... i think we need a little tough love! bring back some of that depression mentality that kept America strong for 50+ years....
On the other hand does America have expensive gas?
I am in Finland. We are paying over $10 US for a regular gallon of gas. In Germany they 'only' pay $8 per gallon.
And my partners US based IT consultants cannot understand that the same Dell products they recommend she buys for her office are astronomicly more expensive in Europe than in the USA.
In this kind of context the US and its government are performing some kind of economic 'miracle' where you guys get subsidised via the rest of the world.
A 2 trillion dollar war funded threw not just our fractional reserve banking system but every banking system in the world due to the dollar being the reserve currency is the cause of the the housing bubble, and what is going to be the commodity bubble like it or not, accept it or not but them's the facts. It's called inflation.
ipodius writes:
" And "the world" isn't placing any value on anything. The markets are, because of the complex relationships between interest rates, the amount of money in circulation, and the relative values of economic fundamentals between banking systems. no one is voting here, the market sets the rates. This isn't a political discussion, it's an economic one."
Have you been on vacation while the fed has been cutting rates? Are you sure you want to stand by that market creates rates statement. Probably safe to issue retraction unless you are going to provide us with some historical contezxt on why the Fed was created, with perhaps an caveat as to why the gold standard was abandoned. Maybe also throw in a discussion of the wage arbitrage and the sovereign vendor financing (see lates capital inflow numbers sester lays them out) that is causing the yield curve conundrum. Gogent analysis for sure
This matter of Bernanke positive inflation seems to be adding great value to the economy, which is obviously in evidence y the great news from D.R. Horton's latest quarterly results! This indicates the bottom is in and that cancellation rates will continue to decrease as Horton builds upon the balance sheet with cashflow from operations, which in turn will result in new buildings, new sales and profits from shareholders!! God Bless Bush & Bernanke for helping builders recover from slow economic growth!
Careful now. I think Ipodius is taking flack because he continually states his beliefs as facts
i'm not sure i state my beliefs at all. i've stated some predictions, and in the last couple of posts i suggested that it was simplistic to look at the Fed Funds rate as directly related to the price of oil. As it is simplistic to blame everything that happens on the fed, includig the housing bubble.
so i posted something that had some lines of thought in it about what oil prices were related to, and about the impacts of lowering the FFR or raising it. there used to be a time on here when these posts were treated with just the derision that i did on a regular basis. alas that time seems to have passed, and now the majority of a thread coughs up the intellectual equivalent of the WSJs op-ed page.
This thread was about the possibility that a home builder's report signaled some sort of bottom/low point turn or plateau. Then the posts about fiat currency or the fed came in. And you think i'm being off-base by treating the posts dissmissively?
In this kind of context the US and its government are performing some kind of economic 'miracle' where you guys get subsidised via the rest of the world.
Behold a few benefits of the worlds most efficient and largest economy....
Rat / jin,
I believe China started permitting private ownership about 10 years ago and ownership rates are rocketing. Also, the suburban models I saw in Nat Geographic looked like typical US subdivisions.
The US firms might not provide the actual labor or materials, but logistics and design seems reasonable.
Re: I have to admit that i do find Ipodius annoying
How long have you been at CR, a few minutes? Ipodius,, barley, and a few others like misean are here 24X posting everything and anything that happens to amuse them, so why it would fail to amuse you is very curious? It is funny how they are among the first to point out "trolls" and then immediately get off topic as they banter between themselves about unemployment and trailer home costs!
PLEASE STFU.....it certainly would mean much more if it didn't need to be pointed out to you that you are taking what you think are facts and presenting them as such.
Oh that's right you're fine as long as mommy gets access to her 401k.
just because deals go off it doesn't signal the end like you want it to. But I'm sure you're still trying to figure out why you were so wrong about the C deal at .90......
and the valuation of BSC at anything resembling market prices.
you fail to include any analysis just that "it got done so there"
Hey MS, should you be posting and annoying the crap out of everyone over at Barry's blog, or have they chased you away from there? People over there tell you to STFU all the time and you don't.
Ipodius,, barley, and a few others like misean are here 24X
Hey walter i hate to tell you this but all of us have been around for a lot longer than you. and we used to have some really interesting discussions and learned a lot from each other, even when we disagreed. your post has that "right-wing shout them down" quality to it. so we'll just keep posting and ignoring you. you'll get bored soon.
no just waiting for a lunch appoitment to show up. and i only get annoyed with your posts when don't use the obvious brains you have and resort to being sloppy.
The American economy is in a recession, which is projected to be short and mild, while oil will likely trade at $91 a barrel by the end of the year, though the range of that forecast is plus or minus $50, Standard & Poor's said Thursday.
Moody's affirms it's AAA? Come on...how much of that rating is based on the belief that with Bernanke and the printing press (which is really less printing and more SIV/Enron type manuevers I believe) Fannie will never go bust?
I hope BB is not sitting around scratching his head...wondering why commodities are skyrocketing.
With respect to comparisons of the worldwide price of gasoline, everyone seems to ignore the taxation issue. Many countries tax gas to provide social benefits. That's what makes the price so much higher elsewhere. Other countries subsidize gas -- like Saudi.
The devaluing dollar argument is specious. As was pointed out, just do the math. What's really sad is that the corporate media just keeps spewing this stuff out as if it were fact.
People aren't speculating on property anymore. That doesn't mean there will be a turn around. Anyone buying a home now is inherently too dumb to cancel.
ipodius writes:
Are you sure you want to stand by that market creates rates statement.
Absolutely boob. Let me ask you a question: have the mortgage rates responded to the Fed's drop in the FFR? Did they when Greenspan was at the helm?
Also, does the Fed declare a "rate" and that's that, or how does the acutal rate come about?
You are not actually serious are you? Are you suggesting that if the fed didn't exist, the core rate would be at 2%. also maybe you can tell us if the market is so good at setting rates what happened to all those triple AAA bonds. Your belif in the market is misplaced and nieve. The discussion is far to complicated for this space, but it is enough to say you are just wrong.
Fannie Mae up about 6% on the day. Them thar's some easy money making opportunities here. What amazes me is how people expect a different thing to occur when these companies report losses and huge capital raise announcements.
Also, it is beyond naive and ultimately you deserve what you get if you think Benny ain't going to continue to cut, and support anything and everything.
BTW ipodius you might not have been around at the time, but I argued over and over again that if the Fed began cutting rates that they would simply set off another bubble, probably in commodities.
Sure enough they cut rates at the discount window on August 17, 2007 and oil, which had been actually falling in price began it's march to the moon.
Coincidence? Was I just lucky in making that guess?
Maybe.
But I based my argument on history -- when the Fed cuts rates bubbles are created. Asset prices explode.
I argued that they'd been screwing up in the same way for over a decade and would continue to screw up in exactly the same way going forward.
Again maybe it's just sheer luck on my part that that is exactly what happened.
A landmark study by the Mortgage Asset Research Institute concluded that almost 60 percent of stated income loans it examined were exaggerated by at least 50 percent. "They earned their name," MARI's Merle Sharick said of liar's loans.
Fraud concerns escalated recently when a task force of states attorneys general and the Conference of State Banking Supervisors found widespread mortgage fraud at the end of the housing boom. Their report said some 28.5 percent of subprime loans that don't face even their first reset to higher rates until next year are already delinquent. In addition, some 70 percent of subprime borrowers seriously delinquent on their loans aren't involved in any effort with lenders to modify the terms to prevent foreclosures. The report urged servicers to work harder on modifications and loan workouts.
WSJ Op ed piece today, The Housing Crisis is Over
Cal | 05.06.08 - 12:18 pm | #
thanks. It seems to boil down to this:
The next question is: Even if home sales pick up, how can home prices stop falling with so many houses vacant and unsold? The flip but true answer: because they always do.
sdtfs,
Yes, they always do, but only after they hit bottom. Just because this woman says they hit bottom, doesn't mean they have. In fact, she will prove to be so wrong about the timing of the bottom that she should be mocked for the rest of her life by all humanity.
"Announcing that for purchase and no cash-out refinance Mortgages with maximum loan-to-value (LTV)/total LTV (TLTV)/home equity line of credit TLTV (HTLTV) ratios equal to or greater than 95%, secured by properties located in a market with declining values, the Seller is not required to reduce the maximum LTV/TLTV/HTLTV ratios below 95%, provided that certain requirements are met"
Aren't they saying that the extra declining market hit is no longer factored in for these loans? Isn't that kind of a big deal? Or is the scope of loans that now fit in the 95% LTV guidelines so small it doesn't matter?
The only thing she is probably right about is that inventories will stop increasing - at least until the Option Arm bomb hits.
I'm seeing anecdotal evidence that would-be sellers have changed their plans, and are now withdrawing houses from the market. This is just within the last few weeks. Unfortunately, however, this means that only distressed, desperate sellers will be in the market. And REOs. It will be a smaller, but much more price flexible inventory, which can only serve to allow prices to fall faster.
For loans originated in 2005, Florida had a reported fraud rate nearly 70 percent above what it should have had (MFIFL/2005 = 169) and ranked third or roughly half the reported fraud rate of Georgia (MFstate that year.
The highest MFI value for the 2007 loans to date is Florida at 215. Similarly, the
ninth and tenth ranked states, New York and Minnesota, have MFI values below
100, the expected or average MFI value. These results suggest that the 2007
fraud reports received to date are continuing the trend from last year in being more
uniformly spread among the states rather than being concentrated in just a few
states with problems dramatically more serious than the rest of the country, as
years 2005 and earlier demonstrate.
As we began to notice last year, the stagnant and/or declining real estate markets in
Florida, Nevada and California have resulted in easier identification of mortgage
fraud. Borrowers unable to re-sell their property, end up becoming delinquent on
their loans, unmasking the misrepresentation(s) and therefore higher rates of
MIDEX reporting.
Virginia makes its first appearance on our annual reports with an overall ranking of
seventh.
Colorado, which ranked ninth in last years report, showed the most dramatic
change by ranking seventeenth on its 2007 book of business.
**>> It will likely take three to five years to uncover most of the fraud and misrepresentation in the 2007 book of business as MARI continues to receive
MIDEX reports on 2007 loans. During this period of time, many ARM loans will be
refinanced, potentially blocking discovery of some of these issues. In spite of these variables, it is still appropriate to look at the geographic distribution of fraud found in subprime loans to determine if it follows the same pattern found in loans taken as a whole.
As we stated last year, the current mortgage market conditions will have more
professionals chasing a smaller pool of conforming business. There will be even greater pressure on all industry players to generate volumes.
"Wouldn't the cancellation rate be zero if they had no sales?"
Everything else being equal, as the denominator(sales) is reduced, the cancellation rate beomes a larger percentage. My recollection(not so good these days) of of early math years tells me that unfortunately when the denominator(sales) is reduced to zero the equation is undefined(not valid). FWIW
(OT) You guys teeing-off on each other. Great spectator sport, but I've got a better idea.
"Scandal of the Century: Where Are They Now?"
"Newly sworn-in U.S. President Nancy Pelosi promises "to move Heaven and Earth, leaving no stone unturned" in the search for the remains of the late President George W. Bush and Vice-President Dick Cheney."
"In the aftermath of yesterday's tragic shotgun/chainsaw accident, the remains of the two men were prepared for burial by a local Crawford, TX mortuary. The two coffins were then motorcaded to Lackland AFB near San Antonio, where Air Force One was to airlift them to Andrews AFB."
"Their final resting-place was to be the newly designated "Warriors for Peace" section in Arlington National Cemetery. (Voice your opinion at this link on the related story, "200 Servicemen's Remains Dis-Interred for Arlington Face-Lift.")
"However, in a scandal that has shocked the world, the two coffins were misplaced during the transfer from the motorcade to Air Force One."
"The investigation into what happened with the two bodies centers on Airman First Class Randolph "Randy" Coxscur. Disconsolate and angry over the loss of his gay Marine lover in a Fallujah firefight, Airman Coxscur evidently removed the remains of the two men from their coffins, substituting life-size blow-up Liberace dolls in their places."
"Airman Coxscur is being held incommunicado pending formal charges being filed."
Im starting to think deflation will never be "allowed" to happen.
When the commodity bubble collapses you may have lots of money moving into equities since so much money is required to be invested in something.
I think the stock market may realize that it won't be trading on fundamentals for a long time since commodities are so far seperated from supply/demand fundamentals as well.
The requriement for losses to suck the investable cash out of the market is being prevented by the Fed's actions, allowing banks to hide losses.
I don't understand why the cancelation rates aren't less than 5%. After seeing the mortgage finance problems emerge in mid-2007, I would have thought every builder would have started demanding super-huge deposits in the 50% range.
If any builder is still making sales with a deposit of 20% or less they need to have their heads examined, and deserver EXACTLY what happens to them (i.e. large cancellation rates).
[So what's going to stop the housing decline? Very simply, the same thing that caused the bust: affordability]
Ah ha! Of course! It's simple! But only to simpletons.
I guess no one let him in on the well kept secret that we are in recession, job losses are mounting, pay increases are negative, savings rate has been negative for years and inflation is consuming what little money those affordability-motivated would-be house consumers have left.
Sheesh.
We might now begin seeing the effects of what drives a normal housing downturn, on top of the ongoing slump.
The Fed does not have enough reserves to take care of many of the nations largest banks, who as you can see, are OVER their ears on Level 2 and Level 3 assets, ...
"If any builder is still making sales with a deposit of 20% or less they need to have their heads examined, and deserver EXACTLY what happens to them (i.e. large cancellation rates)."
Sniglet
Desperate times call for desperate measures. Unfortunately, desperation is bad for business plans and profitability.
Im starting to think deflation will never be "allowed" to happen.
When the commodity bubble collapses you may have lots of money moving into equities since so much money is required to be invested in something.
I think the stock market may realize that it won't be trading on fundamentals for a long time since commodities are so far separated from supply/demand fundamentals as well.
The requriement for losses to suck the investable cash out of the market is being prevented by the Fed's actions, allowing banks to hide losses.
Again, I think it's interesting that some people in the 1930s thought that the crash was required to end the insanity. I.E. a crash was the only thing that would scare people into behaving.
If that's the case, and the Fed won't allow the markets to crash, then we're going to see the economy degenerate until it's a smoldering unrecognizable ruin. Since Wall Street selectively benefits from this type of scenario at the expense of the rest of the economy it would probably wipe out the US middle class.
kis writes:
The only thing she is probably right about is that inventories will stop increasing - at least until the Option Arm bomb hits.
I'm seeing anecdotal evidence that would-be sellers have changed their plans, and are now withdrawing houses from the market. This is just within the last few weeks. Unfortunately, however, this means that only distressed, desperate sellers will be in the market. And REOs. It will be a smaller, but much more price flexible inventory, which can only serve to allow prices to fall faster.
Yep, inventory is on its way down here in Maricopa (and Pinal) county. ZipRealty reports that inventory has dropped from around 65000 to around 62000 in just the last month. Inventory normally increases as we head into summer. I think many people who want to sell but don't have to sell (YET) are pulling their houses off the market because nothing is moving.
Unfortunately, I'd estimate that around half of the people I know have ugly mortgages (80/20s, bubble payments, etc.). Very few people I know have reasonable 15-year or 30-year fixed mortgages. These people cannot hold out forever with these loans. At some point, they will have to sell or attempt to renegotiate the terms. We still have a long way to go.
In other news, Merrill Lynch increased Level 3 assets by 70% to $82.4 billion (approx 3X shareholder's equity). If this isn't a screaming buy signal I don't know what is.
I see Goldman has joined the $200 oil bandwagon. Does anybody in their right mind think the American consumer and the rest of the commercial/manufacturing/travel sector can weather that?
FWIW, Goldman's been right on target with its oil calls. In fact, they were too conservative with their $100 call, looking at $122 now. $200 oil would probably push us up around $5+ per gallon of gasoline. And no one's even touched on the cost of heating oil, come winter.
BLK 219.10, +3.70, +1.7%) is purchasing the debt at a 25% discount from its face value of $20 billion, the Financial Times reported Tuesday, without saying where it got the information.
The debt will be placed in a new fund that will be marketed to investors, the report said. UBS will hold a minority interest in the new fund and will be able to participate in any gains.
A 25% discount only? I would think the toxic waste would need to be discounted far more than that. What gives? Oh, I see, they will off load it again to new suckers. Now I understand.
I see Goldman has joined the $200 oil bandwagon. Does anybody in their right mind think the American consumer and the rest of the commercial/manufacturing/travel sector can weather that?
It seems to me like $200/oil would fundamentally alter life in America.
But Wall Street needs it's bubbles to survive and it's Bernanke's job to see that Wall Street gets what it needs.
It's starting to look like the hedge fund managers run the country now.
You unlock this door with the key of imagination. Beyond it is another dimension, a dimension of sound, a dimension of sight, a dimension of mind. You're moving into a land of both shadow and substance, of things and ideas. It's a journey into a wondrous land, whose boundaries are that of imagination. That's a signpost up ahead, your next stop, the "Twilight Zone!"
Rod Serling
Awesome!!! Scott Bloch is a Rove acolyte . . . he had the frickin Geek Squad come in and erase the hard driove on his gov't computer a few months ago. It's about damn time he was raided.
"I see Goldman has joined the $200 oil bandwagon. Does anybody in their right mind think the American consumer and the rest of the commercial/manufacturing/travel sector can weather that?"
No. Sounds like a variant of the old saying, "A capitalist will sell you the rope to hang him with." The political fallout would be -- extremely interesting.
Chris writes:
BlackRock (BLK:BlackRock Inc
News, chart, profile, more
Last: 219.10+3.70+1.72%
MORE LIKELY:
They can now park the paper w/ the Fed - Book Value $22B, take out $22B in Ts pay UBS $15B and pocket $7B..its a good deal as taxpayers backstop the transaction...kinda funny how BlackRock gets greased, huh?
Now I suspect C is going to get another 7B from Blackrock under a special purpose share arrangement, in the next month.
Ah yes, $200 per barrel oil, which would mean, what, paying about $5.30-$5.50 at the US pump?
That would mean that US consumers have to pay the same price as Indian consumers are currently paying! Now that's fucked up.
Are you seriously saying, AC, that the US economy is incapable of bearing petrol prices that are currently borne in many third world/developing countries? If India can "weather" $5 plus per gallon petrol prices, then I'm pretty sure that the US can too.
I suspect that what will happen instead is that a vast swathe of discretionary, frothy and "trivial" consumption will disappear. This might not be a bad thing.
It seems to me like $200/oil would fundamentally alter life in America.
But Wall Street needs it's bubbles to survive and it's Bernanke's job to see that Wall Street gets what it needs.
What's worrisome is the notion that such prognostications simply become self-fulfilling prophecies. Dammit, if Goldman Sachs and others say oil is going to $200, I better damn well be buying it here.
Yes, life would be altered considerably, and the ridiculous Tax Holiday bandaid-on-a-ruptured-artery proposals may be evidence the gov't is damn well aware of what will happen when oil gets that high.
Here's a rule of thumb: If the gov't is offering to eliminate a tax entirely - even in an election year - then something is seriously rotten in Denmark. I'm not even talking peak oil - that's another discussion for another time, whether or not it's true - I'm talking about a Democratic Congress anticipating enough nastiness around election time that it's willing to cut out tax revenue that they may never be able to politically reinstate if prices get too high.
Russia close to invading Georgia major oil pipelines
"Georgia, a vital energy transit route in the Caucasus region, has angered Russia, its former Soviet master with which it shares a land border, by seeking NATO membership."
Are you seriously saying, AC, that the US economy is incapable of bearing petrol prices that are currently borne in many third world/developing countries? If India can "weather" $5 plus per gallon petrol prices, then I'm pretty sure that the US can too.
I suspect that what will happen instead is that a vast swathe of discretionary, frothy and "trivial" consumption will disappear. This might not be a bad thing.
Since our economic engine runs primarily on "frothy and trivial consumption", perhaps you can find a way for people to get paid to just drive around while they're out of work? India is an amazing comaparison to make. Perhaps you didn't notice, but the poverty rate in India is 27% vs. 12% in America. You call that "weathering"?
In other news, Merrill Lynch increased Level 3 assets by 70% to $82.4 billion (approx 3X shareholder's equity). If this isn't a screaming buy signal I don't know what is.
roflmao
i feel like a one-legged gimp who
always has to buy both shoes when all i need is one.
India can weather oil prices - worst hit USA and specifically CA. Gasoline consumption by coutry, in Billions of gallons (2004)
1 United States 134.400
2 China 16.500
3 California 15.900
4 Japan 15.800
5 Canada 10.500
6 Mexico 9.400
7 Russia 9.300
8 Germany 8.800
9 United Kingdom 6.800
10 Iran 5.700
11 Italy 5.200
12 Australia 5.000
13 Brazil 4.600
14 Indonesia 4.400
15 Saudi Arabia 4.200
16 France 4.000
17 Venezuela 3.400
18 India 2.900
$5/gallon gas much less $8/gallon gas - and some EU countries are paying more than that - will unequivocally kick the snot out of the US economy.
No doubt we would survive it, and eventually thrive - and long run, be much better off for it - but the reallocation process would be painful (ala the restructuring after the first two oil shocks in the '70's).
An important fact to consider is that Europe and many third-world countries have far better civic transportation options. Sure, gas is $5/gallon, but they only need to use a fraction of what your average US commuter needs every day.
Our whole suburbian lifestyle is rooted in the assumption of cheap fuel. We lack the mass transit infrastructure to support sprawl housing. This is going to be another whammy on housing prices, except in the inner cities and along existing transit lines.
Our whole suburbian lifestyle is rooted in the assumption of cheap fuel. We lack the mass transit infrastructure to support sprawl housing. This is going to be another whammy on housing prices, except in the inner cities and along existing transit lines.
Bingo. Another kick to the crotch of the real estate blowup, incentivizing anyone living in the boonies with a sizable commute to just leave it behind and start over. Real estate near existing transit lines - esp. in the suburbs - may actually increase in value. But then that presupposes that homebuyers can a)get a loan and b)sell the house they're living in.
Most Indians at least a few years back used over crowded public transportation every single day. Some do even today. I don't think they will mind switching back to save a few paisas.
No. I just find it hilarious that American consumers have a ridiculous notion of what constitutes expensive petrol.
At current rates, US petrol prices are going to rise to about $4 per gallon by the end of May. IF oil prices continued to rise to $200 per barrel, given current US refinery margins ( about 8% ) and the squeeze on the retail/distribution end of the business remains, the price would rise to about $5.30-$5.50 per gallon.
Then again, it's worth noting that it's an election year and the big oil companies are doing everything possible to keep the gasoline price as low as possible in a desperate bid to avoid political scrutiny ( good luck with that, but that doesn't mean they ain't trying ) - up to and including idling their domestic refinery capacity and subbing with imports from Europe.
Are you seriously saying, AC, that the US economy is incapable of bearing petrol prices that are currently borne in many third world/developing countries? If India can "weather" $5 plus per gallon petrol prices, then I'm pretty sure that the US can too.
We would survive, but current prices are already changing things.
Hence the painful restructuring part - with recession in the 70's era magnitude as a floor for severity - not pretty but not the end of the world (maybe just as we know it lol).
I hope the long run is less than THAT long run, jin...I think we will get the kind of infrastructure projects that lay the foundation for greater future prosperity, if we are lucky. Unfortunately, by our behaviour as a society it will take a price signal of that magnitude to get the requisite changes in our political culture to make better choices.
kis writes:
Our whole suburbian lifestyle is rooted in the assumption of cheap fuel. We lack the mass transit infrastructure to support sprawl housing. This is going to be another whammy on housing prices, except in the inner cities and along existing transit lines.
Whole cloth. Entirely made up. No evidence. Worse, contradicted by the evidence. Kunstlerhead.
dan - I'm having trouble w/ you est per gallon...What I have read, $8-8.50 is more likely (less rich oil, more processing) for gasoline and 9ish for diesel.
energycon - interstate transport will slow w/ a non-robust ecoomy and you are seeing that now. Search bankruptcy and trucking on google..
Not if it's going there because the price is going up and money will pile in. Why? because it's going to 200 everybody knows that buy now are be priced out forever. All bubbles are the same.
OT-let's see what the big boys do coming back from lunch...
This is like enron all over, I can't wait to hear the tape of 2 hedge fund guys talking about how the little old lady is going to be broke after this next runup..
Until citizens go to DC in mass and protest to get 33000 lobbyist out and free market in. The disease will replicate and infect us all somehow if it hasn't already.
Petrol prices in Europe are between $8 and $10 per gallon. In the past couple of years, pump prices in the UK have risen by 20% from £4 per gal to £5 per gal - no sign of any demand destruction going on here, just an awful lot of moaning and grumbling.
Don't you find it disturbing, and ludicrous, that "many third world countries have better civic transport options?" ( not saying that I necessarily agree with that statement by the way ).
You can get an awful lot of decent public transport options going for the price of a small war these days....
The brits have a ppt too. Invented it. The grumbling is going to get a lot worse there. Housing is going to fall deep even with the boe backstopping loans..
April 2004 Crude cost per gallon of gasoline: $0.85
Retail $2.12
April 2006 Crude cost per gallon of gasoline: $1.65
Retail $3.07
April 2008 Crude cost per gallon of gasoline: $2.83
Retail $3.89
BULLISH! Look, the market has now switched psychology and everything is now trading based on bailout likelihood or posistion to capitalize on future pailouts. Every single entity now has a bailout premium, similar to last year's LBO premium. It's fargin nuts!
Barley writes:
Rob Dawg - I'm gunna side w/ kis on this one. The "evidence" is rooted in the past.
Many inner cities have been revived. You can walk to work, pick up groceries and avoid the long commutes (and now save a bundle on gas).
WHAT evidence? Pardon the shouting but assertion is not evidence. Only NYC has the same population as 1950. The revival is a remodeling upon the more suburban form. They aren't "saving" energy, they are being subsidized by other people paying more for energy. Their gas taxes go to pay for urban transit.
REBear writes:
S&P may downgrade some Fannie Mae ratings
Dream on! S&P knows not to do anything so stupid. Anyway, if you carefully analyze Fannie Mae you would realize that the implicit guarantee will be explicit if ever required and what happened to Bear Stearns confirms that or is it being suggested that the Fed would allow Fannie Mae to fail? That will never happen.
One wonders what evidence it would take to make AC and others here rethink their belief that higher oil and food prices are due solely to the fed and a weakening dollar. I mean, do any of you keep tabs on such details as world oil production for the past 10 years? How many of you can rattle off a list of countries that have been declining in production? A list of countries that have been increasing? Do you know the difference between crude+condensate vs NGLs? I bet Ipodius knows these things.
I'm estimating on the basis of March EIA data and assuming that the petrol price will catch up to the current spot price when petrol hits $4 per gallon at the end of this month.
A further $78 per barrel on crude would equate to an additional $2 per gallon or so, assuming prevailing refining margins of 8% and a continued squeeze on the retail/distribution end. So about $6 per gallon would seem likely.
How much? No, really. How much. Do it. Do it now. Put your money where your mouth is. Come on. You just trolled with nasty "I am smarter than you are." Put up. No, don't shut up. I want your money. Come on.
Of course i looked back through my database and found comments I made and have documented from a dozen years ago referencing the demand/proven reserves ratio and extraction technology limits. Did they even let you use the internet during recess a dozen years ago?
Rob-
Are you claiming that the rise of surburbia was NOT enabled mainly by the car and interstate highway system? That many outlying areas ignored building (or even retired) mass transit feeder systems because the expense relative to gas was too high? The LA and SF areas are two good examples.
How many new farther-afield McMansion areas do you think are served by sufficient bus and train lines? What other transportation options will those people have if gas hits $8/gallon?
Let's all agree on $6.00, the effects will be the same. Consumer spending will drop off cliff and we have one hell of a repression (closer to depression than recession)..end of my point of view..Need to sell that extra skf I bought at low this morning to fill my truck up!
Rob Dawg, it wasn't an "I'm smarter than you" post, it was a "show me you are evidence-based in you beliefs" and "show me you are informed enough to be making the enormous assertions you make".
So no, y'all have yet to demonstrate this - I'm not doing your work for you. Though, my questions were extremely basic - can hardly call it "work".
Ditto. Also, I suspect he knows there are countries outside the US where demand for oil is increasing rapidly.
I have these vague memories of an econ class in which we talked about how increases in demand outpacing increases in supply results in increased prices, but that could just be a memory of a hallucination or something.
Mike writes:
Rob Dawg, it wasn't an "I'm smarter than you" post, it was a "show me you are evidence-based in you beliefs" and "show me you are informed enough to be making the enormous assertions you make".
So no, y'all have yet to demonstrate this - I'm not doing your work for you. Though, my questions were extremely basic - can hardly call it "work".
You bet I didn't know. Do it. Do it now. Name the bet. No wriggling. no backpedalling. I don't have to demonstrate anything to someone who has already stated in no uncertain terms that they already know more than me. You made the bet offer. Now live up to it or concede the point. This is not a place where you get to issue a troll challenge and then insist you were only "asking" for evidence that proves my innocence. I've been at this too long. You are as noted previously a dozen years too late with these anonymous insults. You bet I didn't know. Now show you are the boy you appear to be and defend your taunt.
As I expected, no bet terms are forthcoming but then neither is a retraction. Troll begone.
You are puzzling me lad - maybe it is a time horizon thing - what part of this will cause a nasty recession (or make one worse) did you miss from my earlier post?
If we are fortunate, what comes next is big infrastructure projects, if we are unlucky, big resource wars.
Stephen Friedman is retired chairman of The Goldman Sachs Group and currently serves as chairman of Stone Point Capital, LLC.
He joined Goldman, Sachs & Co. in 1966 and became a partner in 1973. He was vice chairman and co-chief operating officer from 1987 to November 1990, and co-chairman or chairman from 1990 to 1994.
Mr. Friedman is chairman of the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board and of the Intelligence Oversight Board. From December 2002 to December 2004, he served as assistant to President George W. Bush for Economic Policy and director of the National Economic Council.
Mr. Friedman received his B.A. from Cornell University and law degree from Columbia University Law School. He is currently a board member of The Goldman Sachs Group, Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, The Aspen Institute and the Council on Foreign Relations.
January 2008
I say thier's a fox in the henhouse and he doesn't care about the eggs..
Mike writes:
Rob Dawg, if you are going to persist in arguing that I have claimed to be smarter than you, then I may have to concede the point.
Agreed. No bet terms, no retraction, no taking ownership of:
do any of you keep tabs on such details as world oil production for the past 10 years? ...Do you know the difference between crude+condensate vs NGLs? ...
I bet Rob Dawg and AC and I Say No don't.
That is in no uncertain terms a claim of superior knowledge. You just don't have the class to boy up to it. Troll begone again.
I can afford to live within my paycheck (without the optional savings deposit) at $3.65 pg gasoline ONLY by taking mass transit as close to work as possible, and then driving the rest of the way (I reverse commute). I walk or take transit all weekend, and rented in a neighborhood specifically so that I could do that.
In Atlanta (not the NE corridor).
I will either move closer to work (if I still have a job when my lease is up) or when I lose my job (I work for a RE Developer) get one in town and try to not drive at all.
If gas goes to $5 I am screwed.
PS: I own my car outright, and so I luckily don't have to factor in a car payment like most people. I can't imagine how we can go on like this without some fairly significant infrastructure upgrades in terms of transit alternatives.
Oh, and if gas goes below $3 a gallon it becomes a wash between the gas saved and the transit fare.
And like dorothy to the wizard, I say to Ben Bernanke "there's nothing in that bag for me is there?"...
Mike wrote:
... I mean, do any of you keep tabs on such details as world oil production for the past 10 years? How many of you can rattle off a list of countries that have been declining in production? A list of countries that have been increasing? ...
Mike | 05.06.08 - 2:08 pm | #
you have not been hanging around these parts for long have ya..
cause if you had then you would know we have several here who regularly post info from "the oil drum" a great web site that's kinda like to oil what CR is to finance and real estate.
Mike you are out to lunch.
I lurked here for 6 months before posting...try a little humility...
First??
48% cancellation? Ouch.
So, a greater percentage are just not signing contracts to begin with, rather than cancelling them?
A little good news: This is lowest cancellation rate for Horton in a year. The cancellation rate peaked at 48% last fall.
Wouldn't the cancellation rate be zero if they had no sales?
Don't forget the other good news: they beat the revenue estimates: $1.62B (actual) vs $1.36B (estimate).
Does lower cancellation rate reflect more prudent/realistic deposits required by the company? as opposed to writing cheap call options on houses
Another factor might be that only the people with better savings are lining up to sig
33% cancellation rate is good news?
As far as the process and impact of a cancellation on new construction. My assumption is it goes like this:
Buyer puts down deposit for new home.
Builder starts building
At some point buyer walks.
builder keeps deposit.
Are their defined points in the process where cancellation occurs (prior to actually pouring the foundation) or do these cancellations mean that these homes are well on their way to completion?
"It's not a buyer's market if you don't buy."
---D.R. Horton radio ad, Los Angeles area, late April 2008
And Gartman said the bottom is in for home builders. Another kool-aid drinking shill recruit spending too much time on CNBS.
Oil has Bernanke-blasted its way up to $121.49 now.
Wachovia Corp (the fourth-largest U.S. bank, on Tuesday nearly doubled the size of its previously reported first-quarter loss because of a write-down on three contracts in its life insurance portfolio.
The company is now reporting a net loss available to common stockholders of $708 million, or 36 cents per share. On April 14, it reported a loss of $393 million, or 20 cents per share.
Wachovia nearly doubles 1st-qtr loss to $708 mln
| Reuters
OK
Some interesting quotes from this UBS article.
UBS axes 5,500 jobs as it sells down subprime
Yahoo! 404 - Page Not Found
UBS unveiled a preliminary deal with U.S. asset manager BlackRock Inc (BLK.N) to sell for $15 billion a portfolio of subprime mortgages with a face value of $22 billion.
The bank said the sale was a signal the market for ailing U.S. real-estate loans is recovering.
UBS's new investment banking head, Jerker Johannson, said the layoffs would target weaker businesses, with some areas being cut by 50 percent and others, such as the municipal bonds unit, being sold or closed down.
ac, didn't you hear BB last night.
He wants the lenders to take losses!! HA HA HA!! Okay, seriously, if they are taking losses it will only be when the Fed is forced to lower interest rates even further. The lenders OWN the Fed, now. They make the decisions. Who the hell does BB think he is? The master in control? Or a puppet?
So what the hell is that string dangling from his head?
If anyone thought there was a pause signal from the Fed, BB removed that signal with his cry for help to the lenders last night.
Cry all you want Ben, they won't help you without cheaper money.
And by this time Thursday, the Fed will be financing Target consumers. Nice, huh!
Are any large US based homebuilders active in China? There are suburban style developments being constructed on a massive scale there.
I know there are barriers to entry, but these builder do know how to put up houses quickly and cheaply.
If they didn't even try, you have to wonder what they were thinking.
$122... back to you AC
ohhhh to be laid off by Jerker...
CR, your interpretation of DHI's cancellation rate as "good news" is very poor analysis - it's just plain retarded
$122... back to you AC
Well, we'll all have free houses but we won't be able to drive to work anymore.
Should make for an interesting life.
I'm going to grow a big garden and get some chickens to raise in the back yard of my 6500 sq/ft government subsidized McMansion.
RE chart porn:
Real Estate Market Reports - Zillow Local Info
Listen to Wilbur Ross and learn.
FT.com / View from the Top
Give CR a break. The iceberg isn't tearing any new holes in the hull. That's good news.
ac writes:
Wouldn't the cancellation rate be zero if they had no sales?
I predicted last year that one of the HBs would report a negative sales month by June. More cancellations than new contracts.
Doesn't matter. We've lost reliable quantitative resolution at this point. New home sales and cancellations at the individual home builder level are too coarse, too variable and too liable to manipulation to be used for anything except sentiment and general trend.
.
.
Many "no bids" at Las Vegas new homes auction last week. I was scheduled to go to this but didn't make it. Not really interested in a single family home but want a luxury condo on the strip for free.
The Ultimate Card Playing Legend by Doug French
On a related note the Tropicana Hotel and Casino filed for Chapter 11.
.
.
It would be nice to know what DHI's gains were for selling call options (deposits) on the rapidly depreciating assets they're selling were. How much are they selling their calls for? Be nice if they were listed on the CBOE...
lama,
labour is so much cheaper in China that fast and cheap in the US isn't necessary fast and cheap in China. Add to that that a builder needs local contacts, not that i would alleged any corruption in the homebuilders trade, and it is a big question if it would be prudent for American builders to be in China
ok can we stop with the negative news stories now. I'd like to go back to cheering on equities.
The housing crisis is far from over. Fannie Mae etc etc...... I think alot of cash still on the sidlines waiting to enter, just not yet.
Banker
If I am not mistaken, China still does not allow the private ownership of land (this is a major stumbling block for 'traditional' capitalist companies). Additionally, the "products" we build are far outside the Chinese standard (too big and beyond utilitarian). US-style residential construction cannot compete with the Chinese model, in China.
33% cancellation rate is good news?
In "normal" times, builders experience a 27% cancellation rate.
But then again, times aren't normal.
Oil has Bernanke-blasted its way up to $121.49 now.
Please explain to me how the Fed sets the price of oil. I'd be interested in that analysis. If you are talking about the relative decline in the dollar vs. other currencies, and how the oil is priced in dollars, please take the percentage decline in the dollar and match that against the function that describes the rise in oil prices and then describe how much is attributable to the Fed's policy of interest rate cuts.
Then I want you to describe the economic impacts of NOT lowering interest rates, and describe the impact to the consumer of the prices changes on other goods relative to oil, and the aspect of the loss of income as it describes the changes to the employement rate due to the higher interest rate. Please also include your anaysis of the effect of re-finances, and the impact of mortgage rates on general discretionary income spending.
Then please do the math describing demand fluctuations and contraints on the price of oil, and factor in the contributions of demand from China, India, and other emerging economies.
Or you can just continue to spew "waaahhh waahhhh wahhhh everything that happens is all Ben's fault" all over the place. In fact, why don't you just paste that on your clipboard so that you now no longer have to type, as well as not think.
Banker, please explain what you mean by "cash on the sidelines".
Cash is always on the sidelines. When I buy a stock the cash moves from me to someone else.
Perhaps it's on a different sideline. But cash is always on the sidelines.
Red-faced,
You are correct - land in China is leased, as it sometimes is here. It may be incorrect, however, to say this presents a stumbling block to builders.
lama,,
Construction is always a local business. Design can be global. There is an article on nytime.com:
DESIGN NOTEBOOK; Mansions in the Sand - NY Times
Ipodius,
We don't need to do the math. The market does it for us.
You can believe in the magical powers of the fed to create prosperity but the rest of the world does not have to.
The world is placing a lower value on the U.S.A., just follow the value of the dollar.
"Oil has Bernanke-blasted its way up to $121.49 now"
Our goverments policies along with a fiat currency durring a time of war has blasted oil prices up would be a better way of looking at it. Just like that housing bubble.
Ipodius,
Have you ever seen a chart overlaying inflation and unemployment?
The relationship is different than the fed wants you to believe.
The fed says that monetary policy works with a lag. Guess what? So does inflation.
You can believe in the magical powers of the fed to create prosperity but the rest of the world does not have to.
I don't believe in anything except cogent analysis, no whining about the Fed with no context. I provided the context, but I don't expect anyone to actually do the analysis.
And "the world" isn't placing any value on anything. The markets are, because of the complex relationships between interest rates, the amount of money in circulation, and the relative values of economic fundamentals between banking systems. no one is voting here, the market sets the rates. This isn't a political discussion, it's an economic one.
Ipodius-
yes you've got ALL the answers...
STFU
Ipodius,
no whining about the Fed with no context.
This blog provides the context. We just had the largest housing bubble in history. It is a widely held belief that the fed's low low interest rates set off the bubble.
So much for cogent analysis.
It is a widely held belief that the fed's low low interest rates set off the bubble.
I Say No | 05.06.08 - 11:23 am | #
It's not a belief. It's a fact.
The easy money must go somewhere. It MUST.
More good news, the housing decline here is 'hardly a blip!'
KansasCity.com | 404
It's not a belief. It's a fact.
Careful now. I think Ipodius is taking flack because he continually states his beliefs as facts, yet dismisses other peoples beliefs because they are not facts.
That aside, Ipodius has good insight, imo.
So much for cogent analysis.
Yes all you need is this blog! For heaven's sake don't do any math or read anything else!
yes you've got ALL the answers...STFU
LOL! From someone that doesn't post under a name. just killfile me anon. i take that as a compliment.
ipodius,
While I won't accept your template for discussion, I do believe this is case where the fed has, willingly, undertaken to assist the financial network to repair their balance sheets at the cost of price inflation in certain commodities, including oil.
This does not, so far as I can see, reflect that the fed chair's character wants polishing [apologies to Lord Chesterfield] or that he has taken leave of his senses. Much of the name-calling here, I suspect, arises merely when the governors take a course which, however rational, doesn't meet with the approval of someone who shares none of Mr. Bernanke's responsibilities.
As to the mechanism whereby a lowered target rate appears in the form of a weakened dollar, I'm certain I don't need to retail the details to you of all people.
That aside, Ipodius has good insight, imo.
I Say No | 05.06.08 - 11:30 am | #
True. The signal to noise ratio needs to increase though.
Flame war, Flame war, Flame war, Flame war!
Common everyone chant with me. Maybe we can get them to have a shirt-less knife fight!
ipodius, good points... the relationships might be there but cant be measured... and as you mentioned there are other evils still lurking...
granted i'm not all for cutting to zero again... i think we need a little tough love! bring back some of that depression mentality that kept America strong for 50+ years....
It's a bull market in "bottom" calling! Anyone keeping count???
Banker - you gotta enter now. This market is hot baby, H O T ! Its only going one way! Its shaking off these party poopers and is rallying now.
I have to admit that i do find Ipodius annoying.
On the other hand does America have expensive gas?
I am in Finland. We are paying over $10 US for a regular gallon of gas. In Germany they 'only' pay $8 per gallon.
And my partners US based IT consultants cannot understand that the same Dell products they recommend she buys for her office are astronomicly more expensive in Europe than in the USA.
In this kind of context the US and its government are performing some kind of economic 'miracle' where you guys get subsidised via the rest of the world.
Are the wheels really about to fall of the wagon?
ades,
Cutting to zero again? Were we there before and I missed it???
We will get there this time, IMO.
Ipodius,
A 2 trillion dollar war funded threw not just our fractional reserve banking system but every banking system in the world due to the dollar being the reserve currency is the cause of the the housing bubble, and what is going to be the commodity bubble like it or not, accept it or not but them's the facts. It's called inflation.
The best way to beat estimates for a homebuilder is to not write down your assets enough. All DHI did to beat estimates was to overvalue its land.
ipodius writes:
" And "the world" isn't placing any value on anything. The markets are, because of the complex relationships between interest rates, the amount of money in circulation, and the relative values of economic fundamentals between banking systems. no one is voting here, the market sets the rates. This isn't a political discussion, it's an economic one."
Have you been on vacation while the fed has been cutting rates? Are you sure you want to stand by that market creates rates statement. Probably safe to issue retraction unless you are going to provide us with some historical contezxt on why the Fed was created, with perhaps an caveat as to why the gold standard was abandoned. Maybe also throw in a discussion of the wage arbitrage and the sovereign vendor financing (see lates capital inflow numbers sester lays them out) that is causing the yield curve conundrum. Gogent analysis for sure
This matter of Bernanke positive inflation seems to be adding great value to the economy, which is obviously in evidence y the great news from D.R. Horton's latest quarterly results! This indicates the bottom is in and that cancellation rates will continue to decrease as Horton builds upon the balance sheet with cashflow from operations, which in turn will result in new buildings, new sales and profits from shareholders!! God Bless Bush & Bernanke for helping builders recover from slow economic growth!
Careful now. I think Ipodius is taking flack because he continually states his beliefs as facts
i'm not sure i state my beliefs at all. i've stated some predictions, and in the last couple of posts i suggested that it was simplistic to look at the Fed Funds rate as directly related to the price of oil. As it is simplistic to blame everything that happens on the fed, includig the housing bubble.
so i posted something that had some lines of thought in it about what oil prices were related to, and about the impacts of lowering the FFR or raising it. there used to be a time on here when these posts were treated with just the derision that i did on a regular basis. alas that time seems to have passed, and now the majority of a thread coughs up the intellectual equivalent of the WSJs op-ed page.
This thread was about the possibility that a home builder's report signaled some sort of bottom/low point turn or plateau. Then the posts about fiat currency or the fed came in. And you think i'm being off-base by treating the posts dissmissively?
In this kind of context the US and its government are performing some kind of economic 'miracle' where you guys get subsidised via the rest of the world.
Behold a few benefits of the worlds most efficient and largest economy....
.......
ipod, the commodities market is deciding how good of a job Ben is doing. They decided Ben is a pussy.
Rat / jin,
I believe China started permitting private ownership about 10 years ago and ownership rates are rocketing. Also, the suburban models I saw in Nat Geographic looked like typical US subdivisions.
The US firms might not provide the actual labor or materials, but logistics and design seems reasonable.
Ipodius,
Thou dost protest to much.
Are you sure you want to stand by that market creates rates statement.
Absolutely boob. Let me ask you a question: have the mortgage rates responded to the Fed's drop in the FFR? Did they when Greenspan was at the helm?
Also, does the Fed declare a "rate" and that's that, or how does the acutal rate come about?
Please don't feed the troll.
I have to admit that i do find Ipodius annoying. (from Finland)
It's global now!
Re: I have to admit that i do find Ipodius annoying
How long have you been at CR, a few minutes? Ipodius,, barley, and a few others like misean are here 24X posting everything and anything that happens to amuse them, so why it would fail to amuse you is very curious? It is funny how they are among the first to point out "trolls" and then immediately get off topic as they banter between themselves about unemployment and trailer home costs!
Re: Please don't feed the troll.
Re: I have to admit that i do find Ipodius annoying
excellent. i find posts that just say something about the fed or fiat currency to be annoying so we're even.
Worried,
Here's something that worries me: someday, that gallon of gas and that Dell computer will cost the same in Finland and the U.S.A.
Worse yet, wages in China and the U.S. will converge.
If the above occurs as one might expect, how can a policy of inflation not bankrupt the average American?
ipodius-
PLEASE STFU.....it certainly would mean much more if it didn't need to be pointed out to you that you are taking what you think are facts and presenting them as such.
Oh that's right you're fine as long as mommy gets access to her 401k.
just because deals go off it doesn't signal the end like you want it to. But I'm sure you're still trying to figure out why you were so wrong about the C deal at .90......
and the valuation of BSC at anything resembling market prices.
you fail to include any analysis just that "it got done so there"
Go back to fantasyland where you belong.
Ciao
MS
Hey MS, should you be posting and annoying the crap out of everyone over at Barry's blog, or have they chased you away from there? People over there tell you to STFU all the time and you don't.
and the bait gets taken in 3,2,1....MARK...
Ciao
MS
ipodius is Latin for "boob".
Anonymous,
What facts have you posted, where are they, can you give a link or date?
took all of one minute.......
Someone's a little testy today...
Ciao
MS
Ipodius,, barley, and a few others like misean are here 24X
Hey walter i hate to tell you this but all of us have been around for a lot longer than you. and we used to have some really interesting discussions and learned a lot from each other, even when we disagreed. your post has that "right-wing shout them down" quality to it. so we'll just keep posting and ignoring you. you'll get bored soon.
Someone's a little testy today...
no just waiting for a lunch appoitment to show up. and i only get annoyed with your posts when don't use the obvious brains you have and resort to being sloppy.
go look at BR's blog and you'll see what a load of crap he's shoveling....not unlike his posts here.
Post it ....where I've been told to stfu at BR's blog.....
Public record....should be widely available......
Nahh facts get in the way of a good story........
You'll have plenty of people to respond to today with your attitude.
Tah-Tah..
Ciao
MS
Re" Oil has Bernanke-blasted its way up to $121.49 now"
Is there a problem there?
S&P: Oil at $91 Year End, +/- $50
Calculated Risk: S&P: Oil at $91 Year End, +/- $50
The American economy is in a recession, which is projected to be short and mild, while oil will likely trade at $91 a barrel by the end of the year, though the range of that forecast is plus or minus $50, Standard & Poor's said Thursday.
CR can we maybe get a CR chat room so the comment section does not get filled up with endless ranting?
Here is a list of some free ones
Free Chat Rooms For Your Site
Can't we just all get along?
We need a pic with Ben in a speedo to calm the markets some more.
It is too early for hissy fits. That should only be allowed after 9PM at night.
as opposed to 9PM in the morning.
Re: endless ranting
I see Elvis with 3 hits in a row, is that a rant?
fed PRINTS
ALl day long
print print print
it's so audacious and in your face!
Look at Caxton,
William Caxton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
you realize that an influential player has named his fund this.
doom,
Life is good at $122/bbl...smiles everyone!
Tattoo...
In what world is Fannie up on this news?
Moody's affirms it's AAA? Come on...how much of that rating is based on the belief that with Bernanke and the printing press (which is really less printing and more SIV/Enron type manuevers I believe) Fannie will never go bust?
I hope BB is not sitting around scratching his head...wondering why commodities are skyrocketing.
There once was a time when ipod's posts were interesting.
With respect to comparisons of the worldwide price of gasoline, everyone seems to ignore the taxation issue. Many countries tax gas to provide social benefits. That's what makes the price so much higher elsewhere. Other countries subsidize gas -- like Saudi.
The devaluing dollar argument is specious. As was pointed out, just do the math. What's really sad is that the corporate media just keeps spewing this stuff out as if it were fact.
S&P is up now on day. Did u all buy as I advised. Do I know the Bizarro world well or what?
People aren't speculating on property anymore. That doesn't mean there will be a turn around. Anyone buying a home now is inherently too dumb to cancel.
ipodius writes:
Are you sure you want to stand by that market creates rates statement.
Absolutely boob. Let me ask you a question: have the mortgage rates responded to the Fed's drop in the FFR? Did they when Greenspan was at the helm?
Also, does the Fed declare a "rate" and that's that, or how does the acutal rate come about?
You are not actually serious are you? Are you suggesting that if the fed didn't exist, the core rate would be at 2%. also maybe you can tell us if the market is so good at setting rates what happened to all those triple AAA bonds. Your belif in the market is misplaced and nieve. The discussion is far to complicated for this space, but it is enough to say you are just wrong.
WSJ Op ed piece today, The Housing Crisis is Over
Re: I hope BB is not sitting around scratching his head...wondering why commodities are skyrocketing.
It sounds better if you say:
hope BB is not sitting around scratching his balls...wondering why commodities are skyrocketing.
D R Horton may be visiting the confessional BUT...
countrywide is still committing sins
amazingly it appears country wide is still inducing loan applicants to cheat.
listen to the story of countrywide trying to get a business woman who is also an economist to go for a liar loan.
the NPR interview was aired this morning and her account is detailed and credible!!!
403 Forbidden sto...toryId=90213946
mock turtle | 05.06.08 - 12:08 pm | #
i apologize for the re post...rarely do.. it but was at end of 3 threads and interview shocking
Please explain to me how the Fed sets the price of oil. I'd be interested in that analysis.
August 17, 2007
Fannie Mae up about 6% on the day. Them thar's some easy money making opportunities here. What amazes me is how people expect a different thing to occur when these companies report losses and huge capital raise announcements.
Also, it is beyond naive and ultimately you deserve what you get if you think Benny ain't going to continue to cut, and support anything and everything.
BTW ipodius you might not have been around at the time, but I argued over and over again that if the Fed began cutting rates that they would simply set off another bubble, probably in commodities.
Sure enough they cut rates at the discount window on August 17, 2007 and oil, which had been actually falling in price began it's march to the moon.
Coincidence? Was I just lucky in making that guess?
Maybe.
But I based my argument on history -- when the Fed cuts rates bubbles are created. Asset prices explode.
I argued that they'd been screwing up in the same way for over a decade and would continue to screw up in exactly the same way going forward.
Again maybe it's just sheer luck on my part that that is exactly what happened.
ok CAL, Thx for the piece,
In two paragraphs he destroys his own arugment.
Granted 'Crisis' is over.
Now it's just a huge effen problem
and the trend is decelerating, not reversing.
Agreed.
the price's will continue to fall, however.
ac,
Yep, in the accounting world, we call them Debits and Credits.
How Fraud Fueled the Mortgage Crisis
How Fraud Fueled the Mortgage Crisis « The Washington Independent
A landmark study by the Mortgage Asset Research Institute concluded that almost 60 percent of stated income loans it examined were exaggerated by at least 50 percent. "They earned their name," MARI's Merle Sharick said of liar's loans.
Fraud concerns escalated recently when a task force of states attorneys general and the Conference of State Banking Supervisors found widespread mortgage fraud at the end of the housing boom. Their report said some 28.5 percent of subprime loans that don't face even their first reset to higher rates until next year are already delinquent. In addition, some 70 percent of subprime borrowers seriously delinquent on their loans aren't involved in any effort with lenders to modify the terms to prevent foreclosures. The report urged servicers to work harder on modifications and loan workouts.
I think only Bizarro is making sense today!
WSJ Op ed piece today, The Housing Crisis is Over
Cal | 05.06.08 - 12:18 pm | #
thanks. It seems to boil down to this:
The next question is: Even if home sales pick up, how can home prices stop falling with so many houses vacant and unsold? The flip but true answer: because they always do.
He must comment here!
sdtfs,
Yes, they always do, but only after they hit bottom. Just because this woman says they hit bottom, doesn't mean they have. In fact, she will prove to be so wrong about the timing of the bottom that she should be mocked for the rest of her life by all humanity.
and even some cats and dogs, too.
re: op ED piece in WSJ
Mr. Moulle-Berteaux is managing partner of Traxis Partners LP, a hedge fund firm based in New York.
Didn't we just get Barton Biggs cheerleading from the same form yesterday??
at least they are consistent.
"it's not going to get worse"
but it's not going to get better for how long???
Thanks for that insightful analysis worth every penny paid.
Ciao
MS
Freddie Mac loosened up guidelines:
"Announcing that for purchase and no cash-out refinance Mortgages with maximum loan-to-value (LTV)/total LTV (TLTV)/home equity line of credit TLTV (HTLTV) ratios equal to or greater than 95%, secured by properties located in a market with declining values, the Seller is not required to reduce the maximum LTV/TLTV/HTLTV ratios below 95%, provided that certain requirements are met"
Aren't they saying that the extra declining market hit is no longer factored in for these loans? Isn't that kind of a big deal? Or is the scope of loans that now fit in the 95% LTV guidelines so small it doesn't matter?
The only thing she is probably right about is that inventories will stop increasing - at least until the Option Arm bomb hits.
I'm seeing anecdotal evidence that would-be sellers have changed their plans, and are now withdrawing houses from the market. This is just within the last few weeks. Unfortunately, however, this means that only distressed, desperate sellers will be in the market. And REOs. It will be a smaller, but much more price flexible inventory, which can only serve to allow prices to fall faster.
Sorry, his last name is so feminine, I thought he was a woman. My apologies, Mr. Moulle-Berteaux, sir.
TENTH PERIODIC
MORTGAGE FRAUD CASE REPORT
TO THE MORTGAGE BANKERS ASSOCIATION
http://www.marisolutions.com/pdfs/mba/mortgage-fraud-report-10th.pdf
March 2008
For loans originated in 2005, Florida had a reported fraud rate nearly 70 percent above what it should have had (MFIFL/2005 = 169) and ranked third or roughly half the reported fraud rate of Georgia (MFstate that year.
The highest MFI value for the 2007 loans to date is Florida at 215. Similarly, the
ninth and tenth ranked states, New York and Minnesota, have MFI values below
100, the expected or average MFI value. These results suggest that the 2007
fraud reports received to date are continuing the trend from last year in being more
uniformly spread among the states rather than being concentrated in just a few
states with problems dramatically more serious than the rest of the country, as
years 2005 and earlier demonstrate.
As we began to notice last year, the stagnant and/or declining real estate markets in
Florida, Nevada and California have resulted in easier identification of mortgage
fraud. Borrowers unable to re-sell their property, end up becoming delinquent on
their loans, unmasking the misrepresentation(s) and therefore higher rates of
MIDEX reporting.
Virginia makes its first appearance on our annual reports with an overall ranking of
seventh.
Colorado, which ranked ninth in last years report, showed the most dramatic
change by ranking seventeenth on its 2007 book of business.
**>> It will likely take three to five years to uncover most of the fraud and misrepresentation in the 2007 book of business as MARI continues to receive
MIDEX reports on 2007 loans. During this period of time, many ARM loans will be
refinanced, potentially blocking discovery of some of these issues. In spite of these variables, it is still appropriate to look at the geographic distribution of fraud found in subprime loans to determine if it follows the same pattern found in loans taken as a whole.
As we stated last year, the current mortgage market conditions will have more
professionals chasing a smaller pool of conforming business. There will be even greater pressure on all industry players to generate volumes.
AC,
"Wouldn't the cancellation rate be zero if they had no sales?"
Everything else being equal, as the denominator(sales) is reduced, the cancellation rate beomes a larger percentage. My recollection(not so good these days) of of early math years tells me that unfortunately when the denominator(sales) is reduced to zero the equation is undefined(not valid). FWIW
(OT) You guys teeing-off on each other.
Great spectator sport, but I've got a better idea.
"Scandal of the Century: Where Are They Now?"
"Newly sworn-in U.S. President Nancy Pelosi promises "to move Heaven and Earth, leaving no stone unturned" in the search for the remains of the late President George W. Bush and Vice-President Dick Cheney."
"In the aftermath of yesterday's tragic shotgun/chainsaw accident, the remains of the two men were prepared for burial by a local Crawford, TX mortuary. The two coffins were then motorcaded to Lackland AFB near San Antonio, where Air Force One was to airlift them to Andrews AFB."
"Their final resting-place was to be the newly designated "Warriors for Peace" section in Arlington National Cemetery. (Voice your opinion at this link on the related story, "200 Servicemen's Remains Dis-Interred for Arlington Face-Lift.")
"However, in a scandal that has shocked the world, the two coffins were misplaced during the transfer from the motorcade to Air Force One."
"The investigation into what happened with the two bodies centers on Airman First Class Randolph "Randy" Coxscur. Disconsolate and angry over the loss of his gay Marine lover in a Fallujah firefight, Airman Coxscur evidently removed the remains of the two men from their coffins, substituting life-size blow-up Liberace dolls in their places."
"Airman Coxscur is being held incommunicado pending formal charges being filed."
S.
Article saying Merrill's level 3 assets surged 70% in Q1.
Mr. Mortgage’s Guide to the TRUTH! » MERRILL LEVEL 3 ASSETS SURGE NEARLY 70% TO $82.4 BILLION IN Q1
Dogs back to their vomit:
BlackRock to buy $15 billion in subprime debt from UBS - MarketWatch
Im starting to think deflation will never be "allowed" to happen.
When the commodity bubble collapses you may have lots of money moving into equities since so much money is required to be invested in something.
I think the stock market may realize that it won't be trading on fundamentals for a long time since commodities are so far seperated from supply/demand fundamentals as well.
The requriement for losses to suck the investable cash out of the market is being prevented by the Fed's actions, allowing banks to hide losses.
I don't understand why the cancelation rates aren't less than 5%. After seeing the mortgage finance problems emerge in mid-2007, I would have thought every builder would have started demanding super-huge deposits in the 50% range.
If any builder is still making sales with a deposit of 20% or less they need to have their heads examined, and deserver EXACTLY what happens to them (i.e. large cancellation rates).
from the WSJ op-ed
[So what's going to stop the housing decline? Very simply, the same thing that caused the bust: affordability]
Ah ha! Of course! It's simple! But only to simpletons.
I guess no one let him in on the well kept secret that we are in recession, job losses are mounting, pay increases are negative, savings rate has been negative for years and inflation is consuming what little money those affordability-motivated would-be house consumers have left.
Sheesh.
We might now begin seeing the effects of what drives a normal housing downturn, on top of the ongoing slump.
Re: sterlingerl writes:
Article saying Merrill's level 3 assets surged 70% in Q1.
http://mrmortgage.ml-implode.com...-billion-in-q1/
The Fed does not have enough reserves to take care of many of the nations largest banks, who as you can see, are OVER their ears on Level 2 and Level 3 assets, ...
GREAT STUFF THERE!!!!!!!!
"If any builder is still making sales with a deposit of 20% or less they need to have their heads examined, and deserver EXACTLY what happens to them (i.e. large cancellation rates)."
Sniglet
Desperate times call for desperate measures. Unfortunately, desperation is bad for business plans and profitability.
Im starting to think deflation will never be "allowed" to happen.
When the commodity bubble collapses you may have lots of money moving into equities since so much money is required to be invested in something.
I think the stock market may realize that it won't be trading on fundamentals for a long time since commodities are so far separated from supply/demand fundamentals as well.
The requriement for losses to suck the investable cash out of the market is being prevented by the Fed's actions, allowing banks to hide losses.
Again, I think it's interesting that some people in the 1930s thought that the crash was required to end the insanity. I.E. a crash was the only thing that would scare people into behaving.
If that's the case, and the Fed won't allow the markets to crash, then we're going to see the economy degenerate until it's a smoldering unrecognizable ruin. Since Wall Street selectively benefits from this type of scenario at the expense of the rest of the economy it would probably wipe out the US middle class.
The Barton Biggs of the world are pumping the markets higher. Yeah, Biggs baby! Pump it!
kis writes:
The only thing she is probably right about is that inventories will stop increasing - at least until the Option Arm bomb hits.
I'm seeing anecdotal evidence that would-be sellers have changed their plans, and are now withdrawing houses from the market. This is just within the last few weeks. Unfortunately, however, this means that only distressed, desperate sellers will be in the market. And REOs. It will be a smaller, but much more price flexible inventory, which can only serve to allow prices to fall faster.
Yep, inventory is on its way down here in Maricopa (and Pinal) county. ZipRealty reports that inventory has dropped from around 65000 to around 62000 in just the last month. Inventory normally increases as we head into summer. I think many people who want to sell but don't have to sell (YET) are pulling their houses off the market because nothing is moving.
Unfortunately, I'd estimate that around half of the people I know have ugly mortgages (80/20s, bubble payments, etc.). Very few people I know have reasonable 15-year or 30-year fixed mortgages. These people cannot hold out forever with these loans. At some point, they will have to sell or attempt to renegotiate the terms. We still have a long way to go.
In other news, Merrill Lynch increased Level 3 assets by 70% to $82.4 billion (approx 3X shareholder's equity). If this isn't a screaming buy signal I don't know what is.
I see Goldman has joined the $200 oil bandwagon. Does anybody in their right mind think the American consumer and the rest of the commercial/manufacturing/travel sector can weather that?
FWIW, Goldman's been right on target with its oil calls. In fact, they were too conservative with their $100 call, looking at $122 now. $200 oil would probably push us up around $5+ per gallon of gasoline. And no one's even touched on the cost of heating oil, come winter.
BlackRock (BLK:BlackRock Inc
News, chart, profile, more
Last: 219.10+3.70+1.72%
12:39pm 05/06/2008
Delayed quote dataAdd to portfolio
Analyst
Create alertInsider
Discuss
Financials
Sponsored by:
BLK 219.10, +3.70, +1.7%) is purchasing the debt at a 25% discount from its face value of $20 billion, the Financial Times reported Tuesday, without saying where it got the information.
The debt will be placed in a new fund that will be marketed to investors, the report said. UBS will hold a minority interest in the new fund and will be able to participate in any gains.
A 25% discount only? I would think the toxic waste would need to be discounted far more than that. What gives? Oh, I see, they will off load it again to new suckers. Now I understand.
I see Goldman has joined the $200 oil bandwagon. Does anybody in their right mind think the American consumer and the rest of the commercial/manufacturing/travel sector can weather that?
It seems to me like $200/oil would fundamentally alter life in America.
But Wall Street needs it's bubbles to survive and it's Bernanke's job to see that Wall Street gets what it needs.
It's starting to look like the hedge fund managers run the country now.
Chris,
And are they using UBS to finance the purchase of the debt from...UBS?
Oil at new record, U.S. stocks rise on optimism
GLOBAL MARKETS-Oil at new record, U.S. stocks rise on optimism
| Reuters
You unlock this door with the key of imagination. Beyond it is another dimension, a dimension of sound, a dimension of sight, a dimension of mind. You're moving into a land of both shadow and substance, of things and ideas. It's a journey into a wondrous land, whose boundaries are that of imagination. That's a signpost up ahead, your next stop, the "Twilight Zone!"
Rod Serling
oh no!
FBI raids offices of Special Counsel Scott Bloch: report
CR, doesn't the UBS story (5500 jobs cut, $7B haircut on portfolio) merit a thread?
A new thread sweeps clean, eh? MMI entry of a lazy man.
Awesome!!! Scott Bloch is a Rove acolyte . . . he had the frickin Geek Squad come in and erase the hard driove on his gov't computer a few months ago. It's about damn time he was raided.
"I see Goldman has joined the $200 oil bandwagon. Does anybody in their right mind think the American consumer and the rest of the commercial/manufacturing/travel sector can weather that?"
No. Sounds like a variant of the old saying, "A capitalist will sell you the rope to hang him with." The political fallout would be -- extremely interesting.
Chris writes:
BlackRock (BLK:BlackRock Inc
News, chart, profile, more
Last: 219.10+3.70+1.72%
MORE LIKELY:
They can now park the paper w/ the Fed - Book Value $22B, take out $22B in Ts pay UBS $15B and pocket $7B..its a good deal as taxpayers backstop the transaction...kinda funny how BlackRock gets greased, huh?
Now I suspect C is going to get another 7B from Blackrock under a special purpose share arrangement, in the next month.
Ah yes, $200 per barrel oil, which would mean, what, paying about $5.30-$5.50 at the US pump?
That would mean that US consumers have to pay the same price as Indian consumers are currently paying! Now that's fucked up.
Are you seriously saying, AC, that the US economy is incapable of bearing petrol prices that are currently borne in many third world/developing countries? If India can "weather" $5 plus per gallon petrol prices, then I'm pretty sure that the US can too.
I suspect that what will happen instead is that a vast swathe of discretionary, frothy and "trivial" consumption will disappear. This might not be a bad thing.
It seems to me like $200/oil would fundamentally alter life in America.
But Wall Street needs it's bubbles to survive and it's Bernanke's job to see that Wall Street gets what it needs.
What's worrisome is the notion that such prognostications simply become self-fulfilling prophecies. Dammit, if Goldman Sachs and others say oil is going to $200, I better damn well be buying it here.
Yes, life would be altered considerably, and the ridiculous Tax Holiday bandaid-on-a-ruptured-artery proposals may be evidence the gov't is damn well aware of what will happen when oil gets that high.
Here's a rule of thumb: If the gov't is offering to eliminate a tax entirely - even in an election year - then something is seriously rotten in Denmark. I'm not even talking peak oil - that's another discussion for another time, whether or not it's true - I'm talking about a Democratic Congress anticipating enough nastiness around election time that it's willing to cut out tax revenue that they may never be able to politically reinstate if prices get too high.
Anonymous writes:
Oil at new record, U.S. stocks rise on optimism
(and then anon quotes rod serlings intro...very nice!)
anonymous , i'll see your twilight zone and raise you a nightmare on elm street
Georgia says very close to war with Russia
| Reuters
Russia close to invading Georgia major oil pipelines
"Georgia, a vital energy transit route in the Caucasus region, has angered Russia, its former Soviet master with which it shares a land border, by seeking NATO membership."
that says 200 dollars per barrel if...
The political fallout would be -- extremely interesting.
Bob Dobbs
ditto that Bob!
Are you seriously saying, AC, that the US economy is incapable of bearing petrol prices that are currently borne in many third world/developing countries? If India can "weather" $5 plus per gallon petrol prices, then I'm pretty sure that the US can too.
I suspect that what will happen instead is that a vast swathe of discretionary, frothy and "trivial" consumption will disappear. This might not be a bad thing.
Since our economic engine runs primarily on "frothy and trivial consumption", perhaps you can find a way for people to get paid to just drive around while they're out of work? India is an amazing comaparison to make. Perhaps you didn't notice, but the poverty rate in India is 27% vs. 12% in America. You call that "weathering"?
In other news, Merrill Lynch increased Level 3 assets by 70% to $82.4 billion (approx 3X shareholder's equity). If this isn't a screaming buy signal I don't know what is.
roflmao
i feel like a one-legged gimp who
always has to buy both shoes when all i need is one.
i always overpay
India can weather oil prices - worst hit USA and specifically CA. Gasoline consumption by coutry, in Billions of gallons (2004)
1 United States 134.400
2 China 16.500
3 California 15.900
4 Japan 15.800
5 Canada 10.500
6 Mexico 9.400
7 Russia 9.300
8 Germany 8.800
9 United Kingdom 6.800
10 Iran 5.700
11 Italy 5.200
12 Australia 5.000
13 Brazil 4.600
14 Indonesia 4.400
15 Saudi Arabia 4.200
16 France 4.000
17 Venezuela 3.400
18 India 2.900
I believe in the american dream, so I just bought more skf! This pump is almost over, dump coming soon...
$5/gallon gas much less $8/gallon gas - and some EU countries are paying more than that - will unequivocally kick the snot out of the US economy.
No doubt we would survive it, and eventually thrive - and long run, be much better off for it - but the reallocation process would be painful (ala the restructuring after the first two oil shocks in the '70's).
An important fact to consider is that Europe and many third-world countries have far better civic transportation options. Sure, gas is $5/gallon, but they only need to use a fraction of what your average US commuter needs every day.
Our whole suburbian lifestyle is rooted in the assumption of cheap fuel. We lack the mass transit infrastructure to support sprawl housing. This is going to be another whammy on housing prices, except in the inner cities and along existing transit lines.
Countrywide recently caught coaching applicant to lie about income:
NPR Media Player
energyecon - "No doubt we would survive it"
The US challenge is that cities/states were built with gasoline in mind. The European urban/sub-urban landscape is much different.
energyecon, in long run everybody dies. Look at Fed, you know most of time people acts on moment shorter than a blink.
I am sitting at an enclosed bus stop shelter. I see a man standing in the middle of the road, looking upwards, watching a flock of birds flying by.
Little does this man know but a truck is heading down on him,silently, but quickly.
Now, you see, I am a doctor. My job is not to give traffic advice. So I then see the man being hit by the truck.
So now my role comes fully into play. I leap out of the bus stop, dialing 911, rush to the aid of the man.
After the ambulance has taken the man away I start thinking about how we should immediately improve the system.
Our whole suburbian lifestyle is rooted in the assumption of cheap fuel. We lack the mass transit infrastructure to support sprawl housing. This is going to be another whammy on housing prices, except in the inner cities and along existing transit lines.
Bingo. Another kick to the crotch of the real estate blowup, incentivizing anyone living in the boonies with a sizable commute to just leave it behind and start over. Real estate near existing transit lines - esp. in the suburbs - may actually increase in value. But then that presupposes that homebuyers can a)get a loan and b)sell the house they're living in.
After the ambulance has taken the man away I start thinking about how we should immediately improve the system.
Anonymous
LOL!!
Most Indians at least a few years back used over crowded public transportation every single day. Some do even today. I don't think they will mind switching back to save a few paisas.
Barley
No. I just find it hilarious that American consumers have a ridiculous notion of what constitutes expensive petrol.
At current rates, US petrol prices are going to rise to about $4 per gallon by the end of May. IF oil prices continued to rise to $200 per barrel, given current US refinery margins ( about 8% ) and the squeeze on the retail/distribution end of the business remains, the price would rise to about $5.30-$5.50 per gallon.
Then again, it's worth noting that it's an election year and the big oil companies are doing everything possible to keep the gasoline price as low as possible in a desperate bid to avoid political scrutiny ( good luck with that, but that doesn't mean they ain't trying ) - up to and including idling their domestic refinery capacity and subbing with imports from Europe.
Are you seriously saying, AC, that the US economy is incapable of bearing petrol prices that are currently borne in many third world/developing countries? If India can "weather" $5 plus per gallon petrol prices, then I'm pretty sure that the US can too.
We would survive, but current prices are already changing things.
Look at this graph from econbrowser.
Also keep in mind the heavy dependence on interstate trucking we have in this country.
And you have to put the $200 oil in the perspective of other problems like the housing collapse.
It doesn't look a pretty picture to me.
Barley, jin:
Hence the painful restructuring part - with recession in the 70's era magnitude as a floor for severity - not pretty but not the end of the world (maybe just as we know it lol).
I hope the long run is less than THAT long run, jin...I think we will get the kind of infrastructure projects that lay the foundation for greater future prosperity, if we are lucky. Unfortunately, by our behaviour as a society it will take a price signal of that magnitude to get the requisite changes in our political culture to make better choices.
ac: "It's starting to look like the hedge fund managers run the country now."
Oh, didn't you know?
kis writes:
Our whole suburbian lifestyle is rooted in the assumption of cheap fuel. We lack the mass transit infrastructure to support sprawl housing. This is going to be another whammy on housing prices, except in the inner cities and along existing transit lines.
Whole cloth. Entirely made up. No evidence. Worse, contradicted by the evidence. Kunstlerhead.
dan - I'm having trouble w/ you est per gallon...What I have read, $8-8.50 is more likely (less rich oil, more processing) for gasoline and 9ish for diesel.
energycon - interstate transport will slow w/ a non-robust ecoomy and you are seeing that now. Search bankruptcy and trucking on google..
that says 200 dollars per barrel if...
Not if it's going there because the price is going up and money will pile in. Why? because it's going to 200 everybody knows that buy now are be priced out forever. All bubbles are the same.
OT-let's see what the big boys do coming back from lunch...
This is like enron all over, I can't wait to hear the tape of 2 hedge fund guys talking about how the little old lady is going to be broke after this next runup..
Until citizens go to DC in mass and protest to get 33000 lobbyist out and free market in. The disease will replicate and infect us all somehow if it hasn't already.
S&P may downgrade some Fannie Mae ratings
200 Oil , bad time to be trucker but the barge and rail business is looking up!
Rob Dawg - I'm gunna side w/ kis on this one. The "evidence" is rooted in the past.
Many inner cities have been revived. You can walk to work, pick up groceries and avoid the long commutes (and now save a bundle on gas).
Kis
Petrol prices in Europe are between $8 and $10 per gallon. In the past couple of years, pump prices in the UK have risen by 20% from £4 per gal to £5 per gal - no sign of any demand destruction going on here, just an awful lot of moaning and grumbling.
Don't you find it disturbing, and ludicrous, that "many third world countries have better civic transport options?" ( not saying that I necessarily agree with that statement by the way ).
You can get an awful lot of decent public transport options going for the price of a small war these days....
Where's Tennis_8 | 05.06.08 - 1:39 pm |
LOL
dan,
The brits have a ppt too. Invented it. The grumbling is going to get a lot worse there. Housing is going to fall deep even with the boe backstopping loans..
ac: "It's starting to look like the hedge fund managers run the country now."
Along with the K Street crowd.
April 2004 Crude cost per gallon of gasoline: $0.85
Retail $2.12
April 2006 Crude cost per gallon of gasoline: $1.65
Retail $3.07
April 2008 Crude cost per gallon of gasoline: $2.83
Retail $3.89
Good article from KITCO commentary..
Kitco - Commentaries - Darryl Robert Schoon
"S&P may downgrade some Fannie Mae ratings"
BULLISH! Look, the market has now switched psychology and everything is now trading based on bailout likelihood or posistion to capitalize on future pailouts. Every single entity now has a bailout premium, similar to last year's LBO premium. It's fargin nuts!
Barley writes:
Rob Dawg - I'm gunna side w/ kis on this one. The "evidence" is rooted in the past.
Many inner cities have been revived. You can walk to work, pick up groceries and avoid the long commutes (and now save a bundle on gas).
WHAT evidence? Pardon the shouting but assertion is not evidence. Only NYC has the same population as 1950. The revival is a remodeling upon the more suburban form. They aren't "saving" energy, they are being subsidized by other people paying more for energy. Their gas taxes go to pay for urban transit.
REBear writes:
S&P may downgrade some Fannie Mae ratings
Dream on! S&P knows not to do anything so stupid. Anyway, if you carefully analyze Fannie Mae you would realize that the implicit guarantee will be explicit if ever required and what happened to Bear Stearns confirms that or is it being suggested that the Fed would allow Fannie Mae to fail? That will never happen.
One wonders what evidence it would take to make AC and others here rethink their belief that higher oil and food prices are due solely to the fed and a weakening dollar. I mean, do any of you keep tabs on such details as world oil production for the past 10 years? How many of you can rattle off a list of countries that have been declining in production? A list of countries that have been increasing? Do you know the difference between crude+condensate vs NGLs? I bet Ipodius knows these things.
I bet Rob Dawg and AC and I Say No don't.
Barley
I'm estimating on the basis of March EIA data and assuming that the petrol price will catch up to the current spot price when petrol hits $4 per gallon at the end of this month.
A further $78 per barrel on crude would equate to an additional $2 per gallon or so, assuming prevailing refining margins of 8% and a continued squeeze on the retail/distribution end. So about $6 per gallon would seem likely.
I bet Rob Dawg and AC and I Say No don't. - Mike
How much? No, really. How much. Do it. Do it now. Put your money where your mouth is. Come on. You just trolled with nasty "I am smarter than you are." Put up. No, don't shut up. I want your money. Come on.
Of course i looked back through my database and found comments I made and have documented from a dozen years ago referencing the demand/proven reserves ratio and extraction technology limits. Did they even let you use the internet during recess a dozen years ago?
Sorry, screwed the maths up - make that about an extra $1.40 per gallon.
Rob-
Are you claiming that the rise of surburbia was NOT enabled mainly by the car and interstate highway system? That many outlying areas ignored building (or even retired) mass transit feeder systems because the expense relative to gas was too high? The LA and SF areas are two good examples.
How many new farther-afield McMansion areas do you think are served by sufficient bus and train lines? What other transportation options will those people have if gas hits $8/gallon?
dan,
Let's all agree on $6.00, the effects will be the same. Consumer spending will drop off cliff and we have one hell of a repression (closer to depression than recession)..end of my point of view..Need to sell that extra skf I bought at low this morning to fill my truck up!
Rob Dawg, it wasn't an "I'm smarter than you" post, it was a "show me you are evidence-based in you beliefs" and "show me you are informed enough to be making the enormous assertions you make".
So no, y'all have yet to demonstrate this - I'm not doing your work for you. Though, my questions were extremely basic - can hardly call it "work".
Mike | 05.06.08 - 2:08 pm | #
I bet Ipodius knows these things.
Ditto. Also, I suspect he knows there are countries outside the US where demand for oil is increasing rapidly.
I have these vague memories of an econ class in which we talked about how increases in demand outpacing increases in supply results in increased prices, but that could just be a memory of a hallucination or something.
"Kunstlerhead"?
Interesting epithet.
Mike writes:
Rob Dawg, it wasn't an "I'm smarter than you" post, it was a "show me you are evidence-based in you beliefs" and "show me you are informed enough to be making the enormous assertions you make".
So no, y'all have yet to demonstrate this - I'm not doing your work for you. Though, my questions were extremely basic - can hardly call it "work".
You bet I didn't know. Do it. Do it now. Name the bet. No wriggling. no backpedalling. I don't have to demonstrate anything to someone who has already stated in no uncertain terms that they already know more than me. You made the bet offer. Now live up to it or concede the point. This is not a place where you get to issue a troll challenge and then insist you were only "asking" for evidence that proves my innocence. I've been at this too long. You are as noted previously a dozen years too late with these anonymous insults. You bet I didn't know. Now show you are the boy you appear to be and defend your taunt.
As I expected, no bet terms are forthcoming but then neither is a retraction. Troll begone.
Barley,
You are puzzling me lad - maybe it is a time horizon thing - what part of this will cause a nasty recession (or make one worse) did you miss from my earlier post?
If we are fortunate, what comes next is big infrastructure projects, if we are unlucky, big resource wars.
Yossarian writes:
"Kunstlerhead"?
Interesting epithet.
Think "dittohead" for the Peakenese.
THX, da
Rob Dawg, if you are going to persist in arguing that I have claimed to be smarter than you, then I may have to concede the point.
Why markets are up!
Fed taf-91 million today
Temporary Open Market Operations - Federal Reserve Bank of New York
The NY FeD president-
Stephen Friedman is retired chairman of The Goldman Sachs Group and currently serves as chairman of Stone Point Capital, LLC.
He joined Goldman, Sachs & Co. in 1966 and became a partner in 1973. He was vice chairman and co-chief operating officer from 1987 to November 1990, and co-chairman or chairman from 1990 to 1994.
Mr. Friedman is chairman of the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board and of the Intelligence Oversight Board. From December 2002 to December 2004, he served as assistant to President George W. Bush for Economic Policy and director of the National Economic Council.
Mr. Friedman received his B.A. from Cornell University and law degree from Columbia University Law School. He is currently a board member of The Goldman Sachs Group, Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, The Aspen Institute and the Council on Foreign Relations.
January 2008
I say thier's a fox in the henhouse and he doesn't care about the eggs..
Mike writes:
Rob Dawg, if you are going to persist in arguing that I have claimed to be smarter than you, then I may have to concede the point.
Agreed. No bet terms, no retraction, no taking ownership of:
do any of you keep tabs on such details as world oil production for the past 10 years? ...Do you know the difference between crude+condensate vs NGLs? ...
I bet Rob Dawg and AC and I Say No don't.
That is in no uncertain terms a claim of superior knowledge. You just don't have the class to boy up to it. Troll begone again.
I can afford to live within my paycheck (without the optional savings deposit) at $3.65 pg gasoline ONLY by taking mass transit as close to work as possible, and then driving the rest of the way (I reverse commute). I walk or take transit all weekend, and rented in a neighborhood specifically so that I could do that.
In Atlanta (not the NE corridor).
I will either move closer to work (if I still have a job when my lease is up) or when I lose my job (I work for a RE Developer) get one in town and try to not drive at all.
If gas goes to $5 I am screwed.
PS: I own my car outright, and so I luckily don't have to factor in a car payment like most people. I can't imagine how we can go on like this without some fairly significant infrastructure upgrades in terms of transit alternatives.
Oh, and if gas goes below $3 a gallon it becomes a wash between the gas saved and the transit fare.
And like dorothy to the wizard, I say to Ben Bernanke "there's nothing in that bag for me is there?"...
Sebastian -
Thanks so much for the chuckle...
Mike wrote:
... I mean, do any of you keep tabs on such details as world oil production for the past 10 years? How many of you can rattle off a list of countries that have been declining in production? A list of countries that have been increasing? ...
Mike | 05.06.08 - 2:08 pm | #
you have not been hanging around these parts for long have ya..
cause if you had then you would know we have several here who regularly post info from "the oil drum" a great web site that's kinda like to oil what CR is to finance and real estate.
Mike you are out to lunch.
I lurked here for 6 months before posting...try a little humility...
none of us is as smart as most of us.