As of Thursday (March 31, 2008) Vanguards Treasury Money Market fund (VUSXX) was yielding 2.35%. But other funds that had invested heavily in the repo market or had high expenses have seen their yields drop precipitously. On Monday, the yield on certain share classes of First American Treasury Obligations was 0.05%; for certain share classes of Federated Treasury Obligations, the yield was 0.12%.
As of 04/28/2008 VUSXX Yield = 2.24%
(C AVERAGE ANNUALIZED INCOME DIVIDEND OVER PAST 7 DAYS)
To follow up on stagflation, try looking at gas prices that are over $4.00/gal, while money markets are going below 2% yields, while inflation and cost of living skyrocket. yes the bottom is in for the housing market, but now stagflation/hyperinflation are just now ramping up!
The GDP report is worthless. Growth from financial trickery, increased government spending, understated inflation, etc.
Consumers, corporations, banks, and governments are over-leveraged. Rising essential prices and tightening credit will severely impact discretionary spending. Rising fear caused by shattered expectations will result in unreasonable actions throughout markets and societies.
Get your manhole covers before they are welded down!
What do you think of the prediction markets falling probability of recession?
Intrade now predicts 28% chance of recession in 08? What do you think has changed so much in the past couple of weeks??
What do you think of the prediction markets falling probability of recession?
Two camps of people - one who thinks the worst is already behind us, and the other who thinks that the growth statistics will be manipulated until Jan 09 when the new president takes over.
One of my coworkers is absolutely bullish on the market, thanks to some MSM talking head he listens. Believes all the bad news has been priced in, and that we are destined for 14000 before the end of the year. Bragging about how he has stuck every penny to be long. I just sort of smile...
I still think we need to change our idea of what a recession is. The same with our unemployment.
A larger portion of our workforce is moving to contract positions, this isn't reflected in unemployment.
Furthermore, our economy has increasingly turned to a more service based economy, which has major differences in recessionary environments than a manufacturing economy. I think this has to be accounted for and looked into.
I doubt the resident bears will be so keen on finding statistical errors with GDP reporting methods, if the number came more negative than they expected.
When the bears are wrong, it is the entire world that is upside down.
Sebastian, I see you just earned another ten bucks. (Okay, I guess this makes it twenty--skip the thanks.) Anyway, I came across a great quote from a financial pundit named Darryl Schoon:
The chickens are coming home to roost, and they closer they come, the more they are looking like vultures.
Which is to say, what's coming isn't going to be good for anyone except carrion-eaters.
Sebastian, I used to believe that you were just another misguided Pollyanna on anti-depressants. But lately you are too much like Tiny Tim ("tiptoe, through the tulips!") to be even cyberspatially real. So I think you are a paid shill.
What I wonder is, when the inevitable crash comes and blood runs in the streets, when our Constitution has to be cast aside to preserve some kind of military order (which will fail to keep order), when the rich are hung from lampposts and the poor starve in doorways, will you still defiantly tell yourself that selling your soul for ten dollars a pop was worth it?
Carlomagno,
I believe purchase money mortgages in California, ones that haven't been refied or HELOCed, are non-recourse. Some mortgages in Arizona and other places may be non-recourse too.
I think this is what Tanta and commentors have reported.
I thought this was an interesting inflation graphic:
That graph brings home the kind of inflation we are having. Just compare the rising cost of raw materials with the cost of finished goods that use those materials.
For example, frozen food is up just 2.7%, even though most ingredients that go into frozen food are up double-digits. Why isn't frozen food up double-digits?
Because people don't need frozen food. They can switch to real food and save money. There's no pricing power in frozen food, and the goal of smart companies is to ride out the recession and maintain or grow market share.
But the hit against earnings of many companies will be huge. Through mid 2007, earnings were artificially inflated by leverage, share buybacks, low taxes, and low pension plan contributions. Now, all those factors are reversing.
Earnings are showing deteriorating especially in consumer services and consumer goods.
It's really pretty simple, since inflation subtracts from GDP, and inflation is massively understated by the government (even Seb won't argue that), we are most certainly in a recession. The real GDP number is probably 1-2 points below the official number our Ministry of Information dispenses.
I do agree with the view that come Jan 09, the statistics will be quietly revised closer to the truth, so the new administration can blame the whole mess on his/her predecessor.
Aaaah... the magical mystery tour
Roll up, roll up for the mystery tour
Roll up (And that's an invitation), roll up for the mystery tour
Roll up (To make a reservation), roll up for the mystery tour
The magical mystery tour is coming to take you away
Coming to take you away
The magical mystery tour is dying to take you away
Dying to take you away, take you today
Speaking of misleading statistics. I've always added 1% in my head to the unemployment stats to account for the 1% of the US population currently behind bars.
Of course, the figures don't correct for population growth. Output per capita is shrinking.
This has also led to lots of misperceptions over the past couple of decades on how the US is growing so much faster than Europe. The per capita differences are much smaller.
My bear stance isn't predicated on a recession, though I do believe NBER will eventually call a recession. A long, dragged out period of slow growth will guarantee that the housing correction continues, and this will continually erode bank capital and profits in a broad range of industries. I don't believe high unemployment is a prerequisite for a sustained profit recession.
On WBBR, I heard a guest talking about the low unemployment and rising home prices in North Dakota. He predicted no recession. I think much more wealth is being lost in CA than is being created in ND. For mortgage lenders and credit-card companies, it hardly helps if your average customer is getting wealthier if a significant subset is going BK.
There's a lot of argument here about the comfortable rich vs. the sagging middle class. But in the U.S. today, more than you may realize, any weakness in the middle class will rebound negatively on the rich.
From the foreclosures and credit card defaults, it's a short step for a lot of people to the social welfare system. I am constantly amazed at how willing the system is today to take in failing people and households and spend whatever it takes to put them back on their feet. In some cases, if you added it all up, it takes a half million dollars or more.
Where does that money come from? Ultimately, a lot of it comes from corporations and well-off people, one way or another.
An unwritten story is how flooded all of the social welfare support systems are starting to get. These are mainly people no longer able (temporarily or permanently) to support themselves. It's a big reason why employment keeps growing in health care and govt. But it's not economic growth. It's economic drag and decline.
Once again, economists and business writers are surprised by something any normal knucklehead could have predicted: now that the home ATM machines have been unplugged, credit card use will return with a vengeance as people try to stay afloat.
"An unwritten story is how flooded all of the social welfare support systems are starting to get. These are mainly people no longer able (temporarily or permanently) to support themselves."
Rich, the unwritten story is the destruction of the social welfare system. Compared to 30 years ago, there is no social welfare system.
Elizabeth Warren make this forceful arguement on her youtube presentation about the middle class.
Rich, the unwritten story is the destruction of the social welfare system. Compared to 30 years ago, there is no social welfare system.
You've gotta be kidding me.
By themselves, Medicare and Medicaid combined are the biggest social welfare system ever created.
Do you have any elderly friends or relatives in poor health? They can go to the emergency room whenever they want, at no cost. Some of them hit it 3-4 times a month, whenever they get a chest pain or feel dizzy.
Each visit can cost several hundred dollars minimum and several thousand if doctors order tests.
The doctors tend to order a lot of tests when Medicare is the payee.
The doctors tend to order a lot of tests when Medicare is the payee.
rich | 05.08.08 - 9:53 am | #
No they don't - huge myth, I know a lot of doctors. They don't even want to see MC patients if they have a choice... MC pays something like 60% of what 'the market' pays... a lot of doctors won't take more MC patients unless they also have excellent supplemental insurance. That leaves the emergency room as the only option for everything.
Rich,what you say about the elderly is true. But for the non-elderly middle class, a serious illness, loss of a good job or a divorce can result in personal bankruptcy that would not have occurred 30 years ago.
Apologies if already posted but I thought this was interesting in light of yesterday's discussions of money supply and sterlilisation, etc.
It took from 1914 until November 2007 for the Federal Reserve to accumulate $800 billion worth of Treasury debt. It has taken from December 17 to the end of April for the Fed to divest itself of $260 billion of this portfolio, a decrease of one-third. In its place, it has placed AAA-rated mortgages..." - Gary North
No mystery on the prediction markets saying an (official) recession is unlikely. Q1 almost certainly comes out barely positive (by understating inflation and by the fact that population growth isn't accounted for, but remember we're talking official numbers). Q2 will be held up by the stimulus. So now both Q3 and Q4 have to come in neg. A recovery, a temporary bump, or statistical shenanigans (remember who's in office) for either quarter means no official recession.
Rich @ 9:53:
You're full of it.
Dryfly @ 10:11:
I'm with you on this. I'm 68 and have medicare and supplemental coverage and I still pay a lot to doctors (and the hospital if I go to the ER as I had to do about 6 months ago). Anybody with assets avoids the ER like the plague ... the hospitals hound you to the end of the earth for the co-pay and deductibles which are substantial.
Further.
I've worked on cases involving medicare pricing and billing (going back to the earliest days of medicare -- mid-late 1960's) and it doesn't pay nearly what the provider could earn from well covered private patients.
Doctors (lawyers too incidentally) write off tons of bad debt every year. The pharmacy won't give you your medicine until you pay, but the doctor frequently renders his service and then tries to collect.
This is pretty funny. Pause, step back, listen to yourselves. You are quibbling over whether we should measure recent output growth as Mar vs Dec or Jan--Mar vs Oct--Dec.
Come on. If the economy were anywhere near as weak as folks here expected it to be, then you would not be down to such silly quibbling. That this is led by the head of the NBER is truly amazing. Doesn't he have bigger fish to fry?
During the past year, the economy grew 2.5% despite a series of oil shocks and the collapse of a monstrous housing bubble. People who thought the economy -- not just housing, the economy -- was an accident waiting to happen need to think about why it has been so resilient.
Figuring that out might be a good job for Feldstein. That he would instead write such a quibble is mostly evidence that he really really wants a recession, to show him the better man. Sad.
More amusing is the pretense that his quibble needs to be pointed out to keep policy makers from taking a false sense of comfort. Yeah,right. The Fed and Treasury don't know about statistical momentum. Give me a break Marty.
Sorry to sound grumpy. This is an awesome site for all things related to housing, housing finance and much else. Some of the posters are hysterical, but that is not the owners' fault.
Re: Speaking of misleading statistics. I've always added 1% in my head to the unemployment stats to account for the 1% of the US population currently behind bars.
Pablo Escobar | 05.08.08 - 8:06 am | #
Not sure about that - a lot of prisoners work for a few cents per hour, so maybe they should be considered employed:)
Thanks CR and goodnight.
bublam! We're waiting Seb...
Seb is busy entering his trades for tomorrow, loading up on long positions during this price dip.
Besides, he only posts when the market is rallying.
"Prepositions matter"? What prepositions is he talking about?
Well, if you look, the word "in" is italicized. He's taking issue with the use of that preposition.
More accurate would be to say that GDP declined during the first quarter.
CR, thanks for doing such a great job presenting all this stuff in a balanced manner.
"The recent government report that US gross domestic product increased 0.6 per cent in the first quarter was very misleading"
It was intended to be misleading nough said!
Here is a small tatse of reality:
As of Thursday (March 31, 2008) Vanguards Treasury Money Market fund (VUSXX) was yielding 2.35%. But other funds that had invested heavily in the repo market or had high expenses have seen their yields drop precipitously. On Monday, the yield on certain share classes of First American Treasury Obligations was 0.05%; for certain share classes of Federated Treasury Obligations, the yield was 0.12%.
As of 04/28/2008 VUSXX Yield = 2.24%
(C AVERAGE ANNUALIZED INCOME DIVIDEND OVER PAST 7 DAYS)
As of May 7, 2008 VUSXX Yield is @ 2.11%
Anyone wanna argue about stagflation?
To follow up on stagflation, try looking at gas prices that are over $4.00/gal, while money markets are going below 2% yields, while inflation and cost of living skyrocket. yes the bottom is in for the housing market, but now stagflation/hyperinflation are just now ramping up!
Gas Prices - Find The Lowest Gas Prices Near You at Mapquest! Including BioDiesel and E85 stations.
The GDP report is worthless. Growth from financial trickery, increased government spending, understated inflation, etc.
Consumers, corporations, banks, and governments are over-leveraged. Rising essential prices and tightening credit will severely impact discretionary spending. Rising fear caused by shattered expectations will result in unreasonable actions throughout markets and societies.
Get your manhole covers before they are welded down!
What do you think of the prediction markets falling probability of recession?
Intrade now predicts 28% chance of recession in 08? What do you think has changed so much in the past couple of weeks??
Look at the chart at intrade:
http://tinyurl.com/47so9w
Steven,
Wonky link.
What do you think of the prediction markets falling probability of recession?
Two camps of people - one who thinks the worst is already behind us, and the other who thinks that the growth statistics will be manipulated until Jan 09 when the new president takes over.
One of my coworkers is absolutely bullish on the market, thanks to some MSM talking head he listens. Believes all the bad news has been priced in, and that we are destined for 14000 before the end of the year. Bragging about how he has stuck every penny to be long. I just sort of smile...
I still think we need to change our idea of what a recession is. The same with our unemployment.
A larger portion of our workforce is moving to contract positions, this isn't reflected in unemployment.
Furthermore, our economy has increasingly turned to a more service based economy, which has major differences in recessionary environments than a manufacturing economy. I think this has to be accounted for and looked into.
I doubt the resident bears will be so keen on finding statistical errors with GDP reporting methods, if the number came more negative than they expected.
When the bears are wrong, it is the entire world that is upside down.
S.
Seb, the guy who always whines about missing the forest for the trees when it comes to jobs numbers is now measuring red cunt hairs in GDP numbers?
Puh-leaze.
Sebastian, I see you just earned another ten bucks. (Okay, I guess this makes it twenty--skip the thanks.) Anyway, I came across a great quote from a financial pundit named Darryl Schoon:
The chickens are coming home to roost, and they closer they come, the more they are looking like vultures.
Which is to say, what's coming isn't going to be good for anyone except carrion-eaters.
Sebastian, I used to believe that you were just another misguided Pollyanna on anti-depressants. But lately you are too much like Tiny Tim ("tiptoe, through the tulips!") to be even cyberspatially real. So I think you are a paid shill.
What I wonder is, when the inevitable crash comes and blood runs in the streets, when our Constitution has to be cast aside to preserve some kind of military order (which will fail to keep order), when the rich are hung from lampposts and the poor starve in doorways, will you still defiantly tell yourself that selling your soul for ten dollars a pop was worth it?
Feldstein also says this:
Because US mortgages are no-recourse loans (lenders have no recourse to the houses owner beyond the value of the house), ...
Feldstein should read CR.
Carlomagno,
I believe purchase money mortgages in California, ones that haven't been refied or HELOCed, are non-recourse. Some mortgages in Arizona and other places may be non-recourse too.
I think this is what Tanta and commentors have reported.
I thought this was an interesting inflation graphic:
- NY Times
Sebastian, I love your sniveling!
That graph brings home the kind of inflation we are having. Just compare the rising cost of raw materials with the cost of finished goods that use those materials.
For example, frozen food is up just 2.7%, even though most ingredients that go into frozen food are up double-digits. Why isn't frozen food up double-digits?
Because people don't need frozen food. They can switch to real food and save money. There's no pricing power in frozen food, and the goal of smart companies is to ride out the recession and maintain or grow market share.
But the hit against earnings of many companies will be huge. Through mid 2007, earnings were artificially inflated by leverage, share buybacks, low taxes, and low pension plan contributions. Now, all those factors are reversing.
Earnings are showing deteriorating especially in consumer services and consumer goods.
It's really pretty simple, since inflation subtracts from GDP, and inflation is massively understated by the government (even Seb won't argue that), we are most certainly in a recession. The real GDP number is probably 1-2 points below the official number our Ministry of Information dispenses.
I do agree with the view that come Jan 09, the statistics will be quietly revised closer to the truth, so the new administration can blame the whole mess on his/her predecessor.
Aaaah... the magical mystery tour
Roll up, roll up for the mystery tour
Roll up (And that's an invitation), roll up for the mystery tour
Roll up (To make a reservation), roll up for the mystery tour
The magical mystery tour is coming to take you away
Coming to take you away
The magical mystery tour is dying to take you away
Dying to take you away, take you today
So Bush Lazear et all are disembling by asking: Depends on which "in you're in?"
Speaking of misleading statistics. I've always added 1% in my head to the unemployment stats to account for the 1% of the US population currently behind bars.
In the US, a recession is defined as two successive quarters of falling GDP, as judged by NBER.
Recession has a definition, there is no need to invent another.
rmark writes:
In the US, a recession is defined as two successive quarters of falling GDP, as judged by NBER.
Wrong. Go check the NBER's website.
Of course, the figures don't correct for population growth. Output per capita is shrinking.
This has also led to lots of misperceptions over the past couple of decades on how the US is growing so much faster than Europe. The per capita differences are much smaller.
My bear stance isn't predicated on a recession, though I do believe NBER will eventually call a recession. A long, dragged out period of slow growth will guarantee that the housing correction continues, and this will continually erode bank capital and profits in a broad range of industries. I don't believe high unemployment is a prerequisite for a sustained profit recession.
On WBBR, I heard a guest talking about the low unemployment and rising home prices in North Dakota. He predicted no recession. I think much more wealth is being lost in CA than is being created in ND. For mortgage lenders and credit-card companies, it hardly helps if your average customer is getting wealthier if a significant subset is going BK.
Effen
IMF Says Inflation Back After Years of `Quiescence' (Update3) - Bloomberg.com
How much did rising prices help retail sales? Especially Costco that sells a ton of gasoline (have you seen the lines lately at their stations)?
There's a lot of argument here about the comfortable rich vs. the sagging middle class. But in the U.S. today, more than you may realize, any weakness in the middle class will rebound negatively on the rich.
From the foreclosures and credit card defaults, it's a short step for a lot of people to the social welfare system. I am constantly amazed at how willing the system is today to take in failing people and households and spend whatever it takes to put them back on their feet. In some cases, if you added it all up, it takes a half million dollars or more.
Where does that money come from? Ultimately, a lot of it comes from corporations and well-off people, one way or another.
An unwritten story is how flooded all of the social welfare support systems are starting to get. These are mainly people no longer able (temporarily or permanently) to support themselves. It's a big reason why employment keeps growing in health care and govt. But it's not economic growth. It's economic drag and decline.
"rising home prices in North Dakota"
Population 636,677 BFD. like a flee on an elephants ass.
Population statistics - states compared - StateMaster
For Seb:
The Big Picture
I like you so much Seb. When you show up back on this board this is the time to go short again...
If you look at the monthly change in real PCE-- the largest component in measuring gdp --you come to a little different conclusion.
dec...-0.05
jan...+0.14
feb...-0.03
mar...+0.13
this looks like a steady pattern of stagnation
This is so funny: In europe despite higher and higher Euro they have this:
Trichet Sees `Rather Protracted' High Inflation (Update3) - Bloomberg.com
and in the US, despite falling dollar there is none....
Somewhat OT:
Initial jobless claims: 365,000
Initial claims (4 wk MA): 367,000
Continuing claims: 3,020,000
Cont claims (4 wk MA): 2,998,750
Also OT: a headline from this morning:
"Consumer borrowing unexpectedly surges in March"
Once again, economists and business writers are surprised by something any normal knucklehead could have predicted: now that the home ATM machines have been unplugged, credit card use will return with a vengeance as people try to stay afloat.
"An unwritten story is how flooded all of the social welfare support systems are starting to get. These are mainly people no longer able (temporarily or permanently) to support themselves."
Rich, the unwritten story is the destruction of the social welfare system. Compared to 30 years ago, there is no social welfare system.
Elizabeth Warren make this forceful arguement on her youtube presentation about the middle class.
You've gotta be kidding me.
By themselves, Medicare and Medicaid combined are the biggest social welfare system ever created.
Do you have any elderly friends or relatives in poor health? They can go to the emergency room whenever they want, at no cost. Some of them hit it 3-4 times a month, whenever they get a chest pain or feel dizzy.
Each visit can cost several hundred dollars minimum and several thousand if doctors order tests.
The doctors tend to order a lot of tests when Medicare is the payee.
The doctors tend to order a lot of tests when Medicare is the payor.
Doctored gov't stats have even made it to the MSM:
Hard numbers: The economy is worse than you know - St. Petersburg Times
Not just for cranky bloggers any more!
The doctors tend to order a lot of tests when Medicare is the payee.
rich | 05.08.08 - 9:53 am | #
No they don't - huge myth, I know a lot of doctors. They don't even want to see MC patients if they have a choice... MC pays something like 60% of what 'the market' pays... a lot of doctors won't take more MC patients unless they also have excellent supplemental insurance. That leaves the emergency room as the only option for everything.
Rich,what you say about the elderly is true. But for the non-elderly middle class, a serious illness, loss of a good job or a divorce can result in personal bankruptcy that would not have occurred 30 years ago.
OT-
Interesting post on the relationship between the yen carry trade and the recent bear market rally:
[ The Financial Ninja ]: Cracks In The Bear Wedge
Apologies if already posted but I thought this was interesting in light of yesterday's discussions of money supply and sterlilisation, etc.
It took from 1914 until November 2007 for the Federal Reserve to accumulate $800 billion worth of Treasury debt. It has taken from December 17 to the end of April for the Fed to divest itself of $260 billion of this portfolio, a decrease of one-third. In its place, it has placed AAA-rated mortgages..." - Gary North
Fed Chooses Wall Street Over Main Street-Minyanville
sig,
Thanks for the St. Pete Times/Harpers article.
A fine read.
On Cal's inflation graphic, I'd like to see any data indicating food price declines (other fresh vegatables declining? I don't think so).
All the food section should be way up as far as I've seen.
No mystery on the prediction markets saying an (official) recession is unlikely. Q1 almost certainly comes out barely positive (by understating inflation and by the fact that population growth isn't accounted for, but remember we're talking official numbers). Q2 will be held up by the stimulus. So now both Q3 and Q4 have to come in neg. A recovery, a temporary bump, or statistical shenanigans (remember who's in office) for either quarter means no official recession.
It is far wiser to look at NDP, i.e, the net versus the gross!
Rich @ 9:53:
You're full of it.
Dryfly @ 10:11:
I'm with you on this. I'm 68 and have medicare and supplemental coverage and I still pay a lot to doctors (and the hospital if I go to the ER as I had to do about 6 months ago). Anybody with assets avoids the ER like the plague ... the hospitals hound you to the end of the earth for the co-pay and deductibles which are substantial.
Further.
I've worked on cases involving medicare pricing and billing (going back to the earliest days of medicare -- mid-late 1960's) and it doesn't pay nearly what the provider could earn from well covered private patients.
Doctors (lawyers too incidentally) write off tons of bad debt every year. The pharmacy won't give you your medicine until you pay, but the doctor frequently renders his service and then tries to collect.
The fake "Sebastian" again. The post at 05.08.08 - 3:05 am wasn't me.
Sebastia
This is pretty funny. Pause, step back, listen to yourselves. You are quibbling over whether we should measure recent output growth as Mar vs Dec or Jan--Mar vs Oct--Dec.
Come on. If the economy were anywhere near as weak as folks here expected it to be, then you would not be down to such silly quibbling. That this is led by the head of the NBER is truly amazing. Doesn't he have bigger fish to fry?
During the past year, the economy grew 2.5% despite a series of oil shocks and the collapse of a monstrous housing bubble. People who thought the economy -- not just housing, the economy -- was an accident waiting to happen need to think about why it has been so resilient.
Figuring that out might be a good job for Feldstein. That he would instead write such a quibble is mostly evidence that he really really wants a recession, to show him the better man. Sad.
More amusing is the pretense that his quibble needs to be pointed out to keep policy makers from taking a false sense of comfort. Yeah,right. The Fed and Treasury don't know about statistical momentum. Give me a break Marty.
Sorry to sound grumpy. This is an awesome site for all things related to housing, housing finance and much else. Some of the posters are hysterical, but that is not the owners' fault.
slg
thanks for the link...fine article
spencer , sonic seuss
thanks for the data
Re: Speaking of misleading statistics. I've always added 1% in my head to the unemployment stats to account for the 1% of the US population currently behind bars.
Pablo Escobar | 05.08.08 - 8:06 am | #
Not sure about that - a lot of prisoners work for a few cents per hour, so maybe they should be considered employed:)
They also get free lodging.
Last