"High fuel prices are causing the value of used SUVs to plummet, often below what's listed in the buying guides many shoppers use to negotiate with dealers."
Good riddance to bad rubbish. SUVs are despicable---in addition to killing people in smaller cars in collisions at an unacceptably high rate (in return for no general increase in safety for their owners, due to rollovers), they worsen gridlock by about 10--12% according to one study. How? Because smaller cars trailing them must back off a bit to see around them, resulting in fewer vehicles making it through lights.
Not to mention that they're ugly and handle like crap.
I don't think anything has cheered me up more lately than the thought of all those McMansions with big honkin' SUVs up on blocks in the front yard.
Like these folks probably have any idea why you'd store a car on blocks in the first place . . . it'll probably be more like a bunch of old SUVs with flat tires and bent rims coming on the market in a year . . .
I shouldn't be so nasty, but my little Corolla has been tailgated by too many of the damned things for too many years for me to locate any sympathy in the depths of what passes for my heart . . .
No need for the Morgenson snark. She has a piece on the front page of the Times today. Perfect opportunity for you to mount your hobby horse and go to the whip.
fred, you're beginning to sound a little . . . obsessed . . . with defending Gretchen. People on glass hobby horses shouldn't crack whips, as the old saying goes.
One of our cars is a Honda CR-V - which has a 4 cylinder engine, and I'm already embarassed by the mileage I get (and looking longingly at a Prius). I can't imagine what its like to drive an Explorer, Sequoia, or Suburban as your dialy commuter nowadays.
Lets hope oil never becomes so expensive that the values of homes in the outer suburbs plummet as New Urbanism takes hold. Its certainly not just subprime then and will affect greater than 4% of homeowners.
But on the other side of the coin...
OUTSTANDING. Been looking for a good used Excursion for a couple of years. Everybody wanted top dollar for the used ones. I just missed a 2003 with 70k miles for 5100. If it's paid for and you only carry liability insurance who cares what kind of milage it gets ??? My new favorite saying "Got cash?".
I can absorb an extra $40 per month in increased fuel cost much more easily than $300 + per month for a new, fuel efficient tin can. And the comfort is so much better.
The next generation of gas guzzler needs to be much more fuel efficient (> 30 mpg) at replacement time or I will scale down. Here that Detroit ?
AutoNation's Jackson says he thinks affluent buyers may be hanging on to their SUVs even after they buy newer, more fuel-efficient vehicles, banking on gasoline prices falling so they can sell their big SUVs later for a better price.
Gee, holding on because they're unwilling to accept the market price...I haven't seen THAT behavior much lately....NOT.
"According to Argus Research, about 0.24 percent of lease payments are now between 60 and 90 days past due, while around 1.5 percent of leaseholders have missed one payment. Both figures are higher than average and are on the rise, though they haven't reached levels seen during the 2001 mini-recession.
There are no numbers available on how many people are just walking away from car leases, essentially doing what a number of homeowners whose homes are worth less than their mortgages are doing - turning in their keys to the lender."
Banker writes:
If you have the cash for a McMansion, I doubt you are worried about losing a few grand on an SUV.
Ummm, Banker, isn't that kinda the problem? The McMansions weren't bought for cash. They were bought with no money down subprime / alt A /option ARM nightmare mortgages and now the McMansion "owners" (snark) can afford neither the resets on the house nor the fuel for the SUV. Oh, and both are falling in value. Hucoodanode?
"If you have the cash for a McMansion, I doubt you are worried about losing a few grand on an SUV."
I doubt many people bought a McMansion with cash. And many who are currently occupants of McMansions, are probably hard enough up on cash where a few grand could make a big difference.
Tanta, you finally put up a nice little well edited piece but you can't help yourself and drag your bete noir into it out of nowhere. But I'm the one who is obsessed.
We breathlessly await your 5000 words on the evils of rent control and how unfair Gretchen is to billionaire private equity managers who are just trying to make a buck like the rest of us.
Been looking for a good used Excursion for a couple of years... I just missed a 2003 with 70k miles for 5100.
A quick perusal of Ebay indicates that there should be a "1" in front of that "5100."
My advice is to buy that gas guzzler or 400hp sports car now and enjoy it while you still can, because the era of easy ownership of them is pretty much coming to an end.
If it's paid for and you only carry liability insurance who cares what kind of milage it gets ???
Well, it depends on how many miles you drive every month.
cjkubx writes:
Lets hope oil never becomes so expensive that the values of homes in the outer suburbs plummet as New Urbanism takes hold...
Have you read "The Long Emergency"? RIP SUV, and good riddance too. With all the smart guys at the US auto firms, you would think they could have seen this coming. This was all predicted, years ago, and not just by Kunstler.
Be glad you are not paying UK prices. In London, unleaded fuel is about £1.10 per litre. I think that is something scary like $10/gallon, but I try not to think about and use my car so infrequently that I'm never sure if the battery will be dead or not...
Everyone thinks their junk is worth more than it is. I remember trying to trade in a decent mazda 5 years ago and the dealer offered me $800 trade in. The blue book was $2,200. My wife sold it to her brother for $1,200 and he sold it for $2,000. I bet that car is still running.
I currently drive a full sized pickup. I've had it for 10 years and it has about 35,000 miles on it. I get terrible gas mileage, but I don't drive much so it isn't costing much. I used to spend about $60/month on gas. Now I spend about $100/month. Not a big deal.
The station where I fill up won't let me put more than $75 in the tank on a single fillup. I have a 34 gallon tank, so I can easily exceed this amount. My hunch is it's a safety feature that needs to be updated with new gas prices.
The idea that anybody gains self-esteem from the size of the vehicle they drive just cracks me up. All autos look more or less like other autos. They all do the same thing. Likewise for pickups. If you have to tow or carry heavy stuff regularly, sure, buy what you need. But for commuting to work and carrying a few bags of grass seed every couple of months?? You're driving a pickup for THAT??
I suppose one could have a hobby of differentiating one vehicle from another via subtle distinctions. But for what end? You don't learn anything about the world, you can't relate the knowledge to anything else. I suppose you can memorize statistics - this one has this #of cubic inches engine - but again, to what end?
People who actually gain self-esteem from a vehicle - can they really be interesting?
I have a CR-V as well.. and couldn't be happier. Tall enough to see around / through the stupid SUV's, with good enough gas mileage to not think about switching.
Aside from the boats, mileage problems are a result of a mismatch of vehicle to engine.. the honda pilot and toyota 4runner also get around 20 MPG, and they're a size bigger than the CR-V/RAV4 breed.
FWIW, all years of the lincoln town car and cadillac sedan deville get worse mileage than the CR-V and all small cars like the toyota. What's the cop car of choice? Yep, lincoln.
Morality is a funny thing. Lefties have been talking about all the evils of SUVs for a decade. I love it when karma comes a callin'. Wal-Mart, you're next.
I've been trying to trade in my 5 year old SUV for the past 3 months.
No takers, on my terms that is.
Despite the fact that KBB and Edmunds say that the trade in value is $10k, the last offer I've been given was $3k.
Dealers simply don't want them, if they do, it will be on their terms (at a significant discount).
Talked to a local salesman that I've used before. He says he gets at least a half dozen SUV trade-in requests a day, most all of them walk away upset.
Interesting anecdote, he says that Cadillac Escalade owners are typically the most upset. At best, for a 2004 Escalade in excellent condition, they would offer $6-7k. This is a truck that originally had a $50,000 sticker.
Hmm, I've actually been leaning toward getting a small 4wd myself, this may encourage me in that direction. My commute is in a forty-seater with thirty-nine of my best friends, so whatever vehicle I get will not see a lot of miles, just for shopping and social activities, where extra space would be nice.
And it needs to be said: some of the used compacts and mid-sizeds out there are overpriced. I realize that Hondas are reliable, but it is absolutely ridiculous when people try to get away with putting a price on a ten-year-old Accord that strongly resembles the original sticker price.
Have'nt had a car for 6 years. no fuel cost, no insurance cost, no headache. sf,nyc. best decision ever. if you can make that adjustment, you may find yourself pretty happy also.
Goodness. It certainly is sounding like a 1970s rerun.
People in St. Petersburg were so unnerved at the time by gas lines and purchase restrictions, the Times classified soon overflowed with luxury cars on offer at panic prices. To say they overshot on the downside is to say too little.
An anesthesiologist I knew at the time bought and warehoused eight enormous luxury barges for half a year or so and resold them when sanity returned.
I guess if you're a bit counter-cultural, or if your investing philosophy is contrarian, it may be time to load up on nearly-new Escalades?
There is something to be said for getting hit by another driver and walking away -- Silverado 2500HD
How much gas can a stay at home mom use for her SUV just driving around town? Ever tried to put a family with car seats into one of those little commuter cars?
If they wait to sell them at a higher price, wont their increasing age cause depreciation that will nullify any gain in sales price should gas go back to $3?
For some years I've been telling my stepson that his not having a car could hurt his employment options since here in the lovely Minneapolis/St. Paul metro many workplaces are only gotten to by car. Well, he just got a job on a bus line and is paying only $35 a month for an unlimited transit pass. Smart kid!
I think trying to mothball Escalades for profit would be a terrible idea. I don't see gas prices going down substantially over the long haul, plus these gigantic things aren't going to age well. The unlikely possibility of some profit is well overshadowed by the likely total writeoff of investment, plus being laughed at for years by your relatives.
We had a chance in the last decade to figure out how to conserve. Now we will be forced to. Guess which is more painful.
What makes these markdowns on trade ins significant is that a lot of people borrowed more than 100% of value on car loans. People have been able to roll balances left on trade ins into loans for new cars, adding as much as 25% to the new loan.
But your reasoning is just what caused the land yacht owners of the time to cut prices to nearly nothing, and is also what kept nearly all buyers away.
As to now being when we are forced to conserve, remember gasoline tripled in price very quickly then, there was no way of knowing how long the embargo would continue or what sort of recovery would follow, and no assurance that fuel prices would come down much if at all when supplies were restored.
For the record, I can't imagine owning an Escalade even if it ran on frymax.
Heh, heh, heh...and to add to Sue's observation about guys and their cars, here's one doofus who has way more money that sense. Not content with buying obsolete cars, he goes for whole companies full of obsolete cars.
"...Kerkorian May Increase Ford Stake Beyond 5.6 Percent - May 9 (Bloomberg) -- Billionaire investor Kirk Kerkorian said he may increase his Ford Motor Co. stake beyond 5.6 percent as he followed up on his plan to buy additional shares...Kerkorian's Tracinda Corp. will pay $8.50 for each of 20 million additional shares that will give him 5.6 percent of the world's third-largest automaker. Tracinda began buying Ford shares on April 2 and disclosed April 28 it had acquired 100 million for a 4.7 percent stake..."
And Sue I think they say the same thing about us and shoes etc, e.g. "what's so special about jimmychoo?". There are just some mysteries in the universe that will always be thus.
Those books are a waste of time. I learned my lesson when I was 13 years old trying to sell baseball cards for what the "Beckett" said they were worth. Funny, no card dealer in town would honor their quoted prices.
I stormed out of the first dealer I spoke to, he offered me a $6,000 trade.
In retrospect, I should have taken it, I didn't realize that he really was making me a good trade offer.
I've spoken to more than a dozen dealers at this point, trade prices quoted have been in a similar range.
Private party is the only real option for SUV owners trying to get rid of their vehicles.
If they wait to sell them at a higher price, won't their increasing age cause depreciation that will nullify any gain in sales price should gas go back to $3?
Well, it kinda depends on how much you pay for it up front.
If I could pick up an Escalade with a blue-book of $20k for $6k (and had somewhere to store it), I'd do it in a heartbeat. That's a huge margin of safety built in, with the potential for a big upside if gas falls back to $2.50 in 12-18 months.
If I had to pay $15k, not so much, unless I was planning on using it as my daily car anyway. But in that case, it's not considered an investment, right? (ducks)
Wow, I don't think I've ever seen such a uniformly emotional series of comments ever on any subject on Calculated Risk.
At 15mpg and a (high) typical 1000 miles per month and $4 gas you pay $270. Doubling to 30 mpg in a newish Civic saves you $140 per month. That s the same as a $10k price difference with a typical auto loan or using cash value lost opportunity cost.
Sterlingerl, there is nothing unique about jimmychoo. But that's a good comparison - overspending on an item that actually hurts you (financially and physically).
Got rid of my last pair of heels last year, after not wearing them for 10 years. I never look at anyone else's shoes, and I don't think anyone else does either. Only if the wearer calls attention to them, "Do you like these _______." Truthfully, they all look the same. If they more or less match the outfit, seem appropriate to the outfit, and allow me to walk where I wish, that's all I ask from a shoe. Take the labels off and nobody can tell one strap sandal from another.
I think you are being sarcastic about the stay at home Moms "needing" an SUV.
I am a SAHM, and so sick of people telling me I need a minivan. No! I do not!
It is true -- having a rear-facing seat behind the driver is rough. But typically -- put the baby behind the passenger. Put a toddler in a forward-facing behind the driver. Put the kid in the booster in the middle.
I only have one kid, pregnant with my second, so how do I need a minivan?
Oh, for my stroller. Well... an umbrella stroller goes in the floor for convenience, and really, my big stroller fits just fine in the trunk, even with a load of groceries.
Sorry for the rant but this is a HUGE pet peeve I have... we have two paid off cars and I am not going to go work part-time at a daycare to pay for a minivan.
The dealers use something called NADA books, and KBB/Edmunds (consumer equivalent) are not all that far off - (maybe +/-5%, but not +/-67%).
The NADA is a pretty simple method, it's not even a model, it's basically just a report of what average sales broken down out by make/model/year/cond as recorded at the AUTO AUCTIONS in the previous quarter.
Chances are, your Caddy dealer would't put that SUV on their lot even if they did take it in trade. They will roll it through the auction, and some rinkydink dealer on the south side of town with multicoloured triangular flags strung lamppost-to-lampost will have it on his lot next month.
"It's a challenge," says Adam Lee, president of the Lee Auto Malls dealerships in Maine. "How do you tell a good customer, 'You paid $32,000 and now it's only worth $17,000?' "
I know gas prices are high. But they aren't that high. If you're trading in a 1 or 2 year old vehicle and you're losing $15,000 in the deal, then you're financially better off just paying for the gas.
I, for one, will buy an old, giant Suburban soon. For weekends with the kids. Perhaps 5K.
Something to let the kids spill fruit juice in. It will be a joy to hurl 3 muddy bikes (fully assembled) right into the cavernous trunk area on any given Saturday.
I have a little car for commuting.
OT,
Just finished Kunstler's World Made by Hand the other day. Not as dark as I thought. Rules regarding monogamy and drinking and smoking are greatly relaxed in his future. He made a pretty good case for locally grown political structures after cheap energy.
jinchi-
I think you are on the right track.
What we are seeing more of, is people keeping whatever car they have (own, not the leasers) and keeping it in good repair.
If you have a pickup or SUV that is in good shape, or can be put into good shape with some skilled mechanical work, you are better off not taking on a huge new loan to drive an instantly-depreciating still-uses-gas new car.
The smart money repairs the car they have that is already paid-for, keeps good tires on it and remembers to change the oil, tries to make sense out of errands so gas is used but not wasted, and saves the monthly payment expense.
Buying a new car is rarely a net savings! Find a good mechanic that you trust...ask around...old guys in barbershops often know of such things.
One of your quotes was from Lee Auto in Maine. These guys specialize in the "sub-prime" selling of Autos. The TV always have "No Credit? No money down affordable cars ..." ads from Lee. Their business model is to sell used junk autos at inflated prices and outrageous rates to bad credit buyers. I think they sell each car 2-3 times ... because they end up repo-ing them back after the buyers default.
I'd expect no less from these guys. They screw the folks on their trade-in value, again on the purchase price, again on the interest rate, and over and over on the warrantee ... it really is blatant.
I wouldn't believe a word they say after dealing with them one time in 1985.
quackprogrammer - I think you should buy grim's vehicle. We don't need him grim and bitter.
I think like you do. I have an SUV (bought used - so my dogs can vomit in it without getting me too worked up) that thing gets 15 mpg, but my motorcycle (bought new) gets 60 mpg - so on balance, it's as if I drove a late-model Carolla.
Tell me, SUV-fans, if the American way of life is non-negotiable, what are those dirt stains on your knees? Why are your kids eating cheese doodles instead of milk and eggs?
Rob, it's not the "average" consumer that drives 1000 miles a month who is moving the numbers. The change is being driven by the marginal consumers who spend hours in their car every day, driving over 3000 miles a month while paying huge amounts for interest on the loan, taxes to local governments, and insurance. For an expensive SUV, that adds up very fast, and the price of gas is what is pushing them over the edge. They try to trade in the SUV for a smaller, cheaper car (saving not just on gas but on insurance, tax etc.), and then get reverse sticker shock when they find out that everyone else is trying to do the same thing.
I think you might be misunderstanding my position. I'm not bitter, frankly I don't even care, it's a numbers game to me, and the numbers say drive the SUV.
I'm simply adding an additional anecdote to the story posted by Tanta. I should count my blessings, I either bike, walk, or drive the 4 miles to my place of business each day. I don't need to sell my SUV, nor is the gas, maintenance, or insurance a burden on me.
However, I'm sure that it is a burden on a number of our fellow citizens. Not only are they "trapped" in high fuel costs, the barrier to exit is enormous, especially if the vehicle was financed.
(NAR ON) It is a great time to buy an SUV (NAR OFF).
I love my 2002 Echo. And yes, it is a pain when we had to fit 3 kids and 2 were in booster seats, but it was a pain for the kids, not us However, now that we only need one booster seat for the three, it's not really a problem.
However, it's a bit depressing lately; when I first bought it in 2004 and gas prices were 0.90-1.01 per liter I couldn't possibly fit $30 into the car, so choosing "30" for the debit transaction always guaranteed a full tank. Now, I've found that if I choose to fill up to $40 worth I can't guarantee a full to the brim tank ... and that was at the momentary dip of gas being 1.167 when it was 1.20 the day before and 1.22 the day after. Ah well, at 18km per day round trip to work, and good gas mileage I'm not filling up that often.
The only problem with the Echos, is the wind pushes it around a lot.
Rob Dawg is exactly right. The premium paid plus loan cost for a new gas saver does not offset the increase in gas prices. Jump on the hamster wheel if you want. I've got four kids and two dogs. We travel everywhere and I will keep my bigger vehicle. Just like I invest, buy low and sell high.
"A quick perusal of Ebay indicates that there should be a "1" in front of that "5100."
My advice is to buy that gas guzzler or 400hp sports car now and enjoy it while you still can, because the era of easy ownership of them is pretty much coming to an end.
If it's paid for and you only carry liability insurance who cares what kind of milage it gets ???
Well, it depends on how many miles you drive every month.
Tyro | 05.09.08 - 8:09 am | #
Nope,5100.00 is correct. Sold it in less than a day on Autotrader. Used trucks are not worth shit in SW Florida right now. As for the 400hp cars I have a few...Once again they are not daily drivers but for fun. I just put 2100 miles on the Cobra at 15mpg and had more fun than going to Disney. Total gas cost was about 550.00 for the trip. How much do people spend on a normal vacation ??? Gas is a incidental cost for me...Even at 10.00 gallon I am still gonna drive...
The change is being driven by the marginal consumers who spend hours in their car every day, driving over 3000 miles a month while paying huge amounts for interest on the loan, taxes to local governments, and insurance. For an expensive SUV, that adds up very fast, and the price of gas is what is pushing them over the edge.
Yep, one of my central tenents. Many modern consumers were incorrectly trained to look at the monthly nut and were never even taught about TOC or ROI. I just don't have any sympathy for someone driving a SUV 3000 miles per month and carrying a high payment and other costs. We can just recycle the early Tanta exchanges about compassion and empathy substituting auto for house.
I giggle at all the people I work with who drove the high dollar cars/trucks and now bitch about all the associated costs. It is pretty amazing how when you drive a old used Neon,carry a very minimum of insurance(1.00/day) and generally dont give a crap what other people think of me,how much extra cash I have vs the people I work with...
Lesleyann has never had access to an SUV/Minivan with her kids.
I go just under 6'4", the last thing I want to do is try to squeeze into an Accord or Civic. I generally like Japanese made vehicles, but most are not made for people who are much over 6'.
Sorry, but the ability to change radio stations with my knee is not a feature I desire.
To refine Rob's estimate: When people bought these cars, they were already looking at $2 gas. So the extra cost from gas price increases is equivalent to only about $5000 in the sticker price. A 10-15K price reduction would only be rational with 200/barrel oil.
"Many modern consumers were incorrectly trained to look at the monthly nut and were never even taught about TOC or ROI. I just don't have any sympathy for someone driving a SUV 3000 miles per month and carrying a high payment and other costs. We can just recycle the early Tanta exchanges about compassion and empathy substituting auto for house.
Rob Dawg | Homepage | 05.09.08 - 11:09 am | #"
Mr. Dawg,
Whatttt ??? 3k a month at 12 mpg and 4.00/gal gas could get pricey...I used to get a laugh that people I work with literally were pissed at me cause I have a pretty good collection of vehicles. Then I remind em that what 15+ years of Geo Metros,Neons,Festivas And generally being a cheap bastard will get ya...
Shoot you should see the looks when I tell them I have the cash to buy a small place and don't give a crap about interest rates...
"ericblair writes:
I think trying to mothball Escalades for profit would be a terrible idea. I don't see gas prices going down substantially over the long haul, plus these gigantic things aren't going to age well. The unlikely possibility of some profit is well overshadowed by the likely total writeoff of investment, plus being laughed at for years by your relatives."
Yeah, because gas price NEVER fluctuates. Once they go up/down, they stay up/down - forever.
Perhaps there is more value in some of these vehicles as scrap. Buy one, break it down yourself and take the sheet metal, engine block, radiator, and so forth down to your local scrap dealer. I've been pondering this for a month or two, but haven't had the time to seriously pencil it out. Any thoughts?
While SUVs as a group may not be safer for their occupants, a British study which broke down fatality rates by model clearly shows that the largest and most solid SUVs are essentially the safest cars on the road.
The Land Rover Defender, Toyota Land Cruiser, and Mercedes ML were the safest vehicles in the study. They were several times safer than other cars - even Volvos.
Brokeback Benny - yeah, it's not cost effective to buy an expensive Prius, but look at the cost and gas mileage of an Echo, and other similar small cars. Maybe if the 2009 prius gets the currently claimed 97mpg, and doesn't rise much in price, then it might make sense to get a hybrid. But Hybrids aren't the only vehicles with good gas mileage.
Lesleyann, not being sarcastic at all. My wife drives an Expedition. With 2 kids it is a necessity if you pick up friends, go out with grandma or just go on a family trip. With our third child it will be even more so. Since she does not work she does not commute and so gas costs are minimal per month. The car should last for 10 years easily so it is cheap insurance having a large (safer) utilitarian vehicle.
I drive 2000 miles a month for work and I am around a lot of crazy commuters who are in a hurry. Since two have totalled their vehicles hitting me in the last 10 years I insist on driving a huge vehicle that can take their best shot. 10 mpg is offset by the fact that I actually use the truck for work and that it is cheap insurance in case of an accident. Being self employed my business would suffer if I am in the hospital.
I think you're lumping my Nissan with the F-150. If I only had one vehicle by choice, it would be a small pick-up. Still over 20 mpg and ability to throw stuff in the back.
Because of my work, I guess I could "justify" a large pick-up, except that their beds aren't any bigger than mine. WTF? And it doesn't make sense since I don't need to pull a trailer, problems parking, and paying for the higher insurance/gas/maintenance.
My wife's car is a Sentra, big enough for us, but I can see how it would be too small for the average US citizen.
On the other hand, if someone gave me an SUV, I'd consider it for the rare trips that we'd want to take the dogs along.
I generally suspect that people who advertise what kind of car they drive in their username are teenagers living out a fantasy. Every comment from "cobradriver" is a reply which has nothing to do with the original comment but is merely an opportunity to mention which car he (supposedly) wants to buy, what he (supposedly) drives, and how much money he (supposedly) has.
Lesleyann, The worry I have about using small cars for my family comes from an accident I was in. I kid was drunk coming off the freeway and slammed into the back of my truck. The truck was torqued a little but the little Japanese hatchback that hit me did something scary. Both front seats (with passengers) snapped and fell back flat into the back seat. If there had been passengers in the back they would have been badly hurt.
Yeah, because gas price NEVER fluctuates. Once they go up/down, they stay up/down - forever.
Previous crude oil price collapses may not be of good predictive value for future price movements.
If you don't understand the differing dynamics this time around by now you are either insulated in an ideological bubble (say 'hi' to Darth Cheney for me) or simply deficient in cognitive abilities.
Their business model is to sell used junk autos at inflated prices and outrageous rates to bad credit buyers. I think they sell each car 2-3 times ... because they end up repo-ing them back after the buyers default.
Car dealership as loan shark. This is not uncommon. They are just Hertz with tackier ads and an ability to screw your credit rating further.
Maybe if the 2009 prius gets the currently claimed 97mpg, and doesn't rise much in price, then it might make sense to get a hybrid.
Ahhh. The "plug in" hybrid. Remember what happened with ethanol and all the trouble that caused? T'weren't nuttin compared to what plug in hybrids will do to the electric grid. California road passenger vehicle petrol consumption is the equivalent of 40+ nuclear plants. Heck, plug in vehicles are going to be essentially coal powered but at extremely low efficiencies.
What about diesel fuel cars? My European friends marvel that the US has not moved to diesel cars. They run just as well as gas fueled ones and they don't pollute. And they are much more economical.
"The station where I fill up won't let me put more than $75 in the tank on a single fillup. I have a 34 gallon tank, so I can easily exceed this amount. My hunch is it's a safety feature that needs to be updated with new gas prices."
It's not the station that limits you, it's your bank card. Different banks have different limits. If you take the card in and leave it with the cashier you can pump as much as you like. I wish I didn't need to know this...
Oh, sorry. i was at the nursery. Picked up a mother's day present; 15gal apricot tree for Mrs. Dawg. Wrestled that sucker into the Expedition and let the crown hang out the back. [Note to "w"; Dobsons on SR-118]. Mrs. Dawg took the '06 Civic to work today. Never would have happened if I were driving the "the clown car." We call it that because whenever the two adults and three kids are in it together the kids start singing circus music as we all pile in or out. Just two days ago picking up one we had to decline giving her friend a ride home, not enough space. That means some other adult made a special pick up trip and wasted gas that was far more than if we had been in one of the SUVs instead. BTU/pass mi is a lot more complex than reading the EPA sticker.
Lurker,
I think you'd fit into the Accord. I'm 6'3" and have one. The only thing is that I had to get a lower (LX) model because I didn't quite fit with the Moonroof which is on all higher equipped Accords.
When I saw the headline of this post, "Seriously underwater", I thought we'd have a story about strapped car owners driving their 3 year old Ford Exploitations into the river and reporting them stolen.
Well, if everyone is currently trying to trade in big cars for small ones, then you should do the exact opposite. It always pays off to do the opposite than the masses - just remember buying a home 1994 and 2005.
What about diesel fuel cars? My European friends marvel that the US has not moved to diesel cars. They run just as well as gas fueled ones and they don't pollute. And they are much more economical.
Chris | 05.09.08 - 12:11 pm | #
Chris,
Most people think diesel stinks/smokes. The latest generation may change that. The whole deal with ULSD and meeting the latest emission requirements is going to also cause some short term supply problems. I think once we get a few years under our belts with the 2010/urea injection/particle trap ordeal and the emissions become a proven item it will get better.
A current 05 long wheel base Sprinter will easily get 25mpg w/o babying it...
not enough space. That means some other adult made a special pick up trip and wasted gas that was far more than if we had been in one of the SUVs instead.
Rob, my solution to that: my Mercury Sable wagon. With the rear seat up, can actually seat 8. The dog loves the way back. With a Thule on top it can carry a boatload. Rides smooth, comfortable interior, good gas mileage. I've never been happier with a car.
Of course, Ford had to discontinue it, so you can only get used now. They shoulda discontinued the SUVs instead. If they had consulted me, they might not be broke today.
Outsider writes:
Rob, my solution to that: my Mercury Sable wagon.
Excellent platform, criminal engine/powertrain. The transverse duratec is a travesty. I always wanted to shoehorn the yahama into a wagon especially if the AWD could be retained. The ultimate sleeper car.
On topic, yes to an extent but now we are talking about shades of gray. Not everyone needs an Expedition sure but in a total lifecycle analysis if you are going to need one occasionally you need to do the math very carefully.
And it needs to be said: some of the used compacts and mid-sizeds out there are overpriced. I realize that Hondas are reliable, but it is absolutely ridiculous when people try to get away with putting a price on a ten-year-old Accord that strongly resembles the original sticker price.
Haven't you heard of getting equity in your vehicle?
Heh indeedly-doodely. Remember Ken and Mysti Cope of San Clemente? And how he 'traded down' from a 'Vette to a Suburban? And how they had expenses of $10K a month but income of $1.8k/mth?
Maybe he was smarter than we all thought, to 'trade down' to that 'burban... before long that will be their home. But hey, they can still have that beachfront lifestyle... they just have to move it every 48 hours to avoid getting ticketed.
I'm really enjoying the schadenfreude wrt plummeting SUV values. Our troops are dying in the ME in no small part due to the demand for gasoline created by folks driving ginormous Urban Assault Vehicles, solely for the purpose of conspicuous consumption. I freakin' hate Hummers and most people who are driving Escalades and Expeditions, really don't need something that big.
I drive a Corolla which gets 34/38 (up to 42 if I stick to the speed limit on the fwy...). I get looked down upon for not owning a larger car, though I could certainly afford one. I think I am going to enjoy the vindication for a good, long while.
What about diesel fuel cars? My European friends marvel that the US has not moved to diesel cars. They run just as well as gas fueled ones and they don't pollute. And they are much more economical.
Last year during our annual Urine Peein' vacation, we leased a Peugeot minivan which got 40mpg on diesel. No kidding. Same for a VW minivan we rented the year before in Yurp.
"Remember what happened with ethanol and all the trouble that caused? T'weren't nuttin compared to what plug in hybrids will do to the electric grid"
YES! Spot on, 150% correct, thank you.
The problem isn't gasoline-burning vehicles, the problem is vehicles period.
We're setting ourselves up for some serious nightmares with this electric car BS. What most people don't get is that as important as it is to be able to drive, it is still a lot less necessary than electricity, especially in our society. But they'll learn, when all these idiots plug their Priuses in and the lights go out...for a week.
the other thing about vehicle choice that makes me cringe... good ol' boy rednecks driving ginormous diesel-powered pickups who don't really need one to haul around bales of hay and stuff, it's just their overcompensating, motorized version of a big ass belt buckle.
I think I am going to enjoy all the whining from these folks when gas hits $5/gallon.
Scooby, at least electricity generation lessens the demand for oil. It does shift the CO2 generation to coal and gas powered electricity generation facilities, typically (but not always) located in the sticks. I still say this is a problem which can be addressed; I prefer electric-powered vehicles over petroleum-powered vehicles. If we could convert the private vehicle fleet overnight to a substantially electric-powered one, we could at least have a viable option to extracting our troops from ME intrigues and even improve the strength of our currency.
w: How much gas can a stay at home mom use for her SUV just driving around town? Ever tried to put a family with car seats into one of those little commuter cars?
Of course, because that's the ONLY possible choice: a mammoth SUV or a SMARTCar...
I drive a Corolla which gets 34/38 (up to 42 if I stick to the speed limit on the fwy...).
Oh God no please. Save us all from this. The curse of the mileage braggart.
Consumer reports says: "The 130-hp, 1.8-liter Four is both quick and thrifty. Expect 29 mpg in mixed driving on regular fuel."
It's nice to get good fuel economy but it is the most incredibly boring thing to have to listen to the claims especially when so far from documented practical results.
I go just under 6'4", the last thing I want to do is try to squeeze into an Accord or Civic. I generally like Japanese made vehicles, but most are not made for people who are much over 6'.
Sorry, but the ability to change radio stations with my knee is not a feature I desire.
Lurker | 05.09.08 - 11:14 am | #
Hi, Lurker,
On the Diehards forum, one poster boasted that her 6'6" partner "easily fits" into her 2002 Toyota Echo:
It's nice to get good fuel economy but it is the most incredibly boring thing to have to listen to the claims especially when so far from documented practical results.
My claims are based on documented practical results. Every time I fill up, I write down the trip odometer reading and reset it and write down the amount of fuel purchased.
...and the air over "the sticks" comes from the atmosphere over another planet, right?
Oh, I don't deny that it merely shifts the pollution from the city to the sticks, and that doesn't magically disappear just because urban dwellers can't see it; but this can be addressed, if only we had a government that wanted to do so.
For instance, we could take a fraction of the money being pissed away on the Iraq war - itself a product of our country's need to maintain stable access of the worldwide oil market to ME oil - and put it into researching ways to make coal burn more cleanly. Or, truly clean alternative energy sources like solar.
shrug whatever. Save me from the curse of the people who hate me for having made wise choices.
Every time some PC fanboi rants about Apple/Steve Jobs, I merely smile slyly and ask them about their registry, or how Vista is working out for them, or the last time they got a virus on their computer, or how often they have to take their box in for maintenance because it has slowed to a crawl.
Paid cash for a Civic Hybrid two years ago; I figure I saved that much by driving the previous Honda for 12 years. The Hybrid is getting 42 mpg easy, the $3.90 + gas is just not an issue.
And the cool thing about the Civic is it's a stealth hybrid, so no attitude from the SUVs or Beemers.
Scooby writes:
"It does shift the CO2 generation to coal and gas powered electricity generation facilities, typically (but not always) located in the sticks"
...and the air over "the sticks" comes from the atmosphere over another planet, right?
Yes, exactly so. the urban core dwellers have any number of blind spots as to where their consumptive lifestyle derives. For all the "local jobs, shopping and lives" they don't mind flooding the hinterlands for their water and electricity and landfilling for garbage dumps.
I can even predict the responses. Invariably they will include a nasty or two about the current administration and/or the war. They will advocate clean energy alternatives all of which don't get built in urban cores (solar, wind, hydro). They will tout transit despite all the proof that transit does not save energy. So predictable.
Unlike the people you like to piss upon, I am not pretending that those power plants up on the Navajo rez magically disappear all those particulate and CO2 emissions. What I am saying is that there are ways to address that, if only we had the will and leadership to do so.
Same for solar energy; imagine the leaps forward we could have made in making it more practical/productive if a fraction of the hundreds of billions of dollars spent on this wasteful war, had been put into solar energy research.
Invariably they will include a nasty or two about the current administration and/or the war.
Do you believe that the current administration is undeserving of harsh criticism?
Do you believe that the war in Iraq has not been a poor choice, or thaty it has not come at a tremendous opportunity cost?
Do you believe the current US energy paradigm is sustainable into the future, given the realities of peak oil/declining value of the dollar/global climate change due to human CO2 emissions?
I'm pleased that the resale values on my (fully paid for) Toyota Tundra and Toyota Sequoia are dropping ... less money to the state in property taxes at registration time and less in insurance premiums to the FIRE economy parasites.
We drive them an average of less than 8,000 miles per year (mostly winter - 4x4 is a wonderful thing when it snows 2+ ft. overnight) and most of my commute miles are by motorcycle at over 60 mpg during the other 3 seasons.
The best thing about the ever increasing price of gasoline is all the riff-raff it'll get off the roads. Fewer cars, less motorcyclists killed by clueless drivers of four or more wheeled vehicles.
I thought the burden to the electrical grid under such a strategy was minimized since most recharging would be done at night, when the grid demand is lowest. Thus this approach actually makes use of the as-now under-utilized nighttime base capacity of the system.
Not saying that PHEVs are the be-all and end-all solution, just that the PHEV approach can't be dismissed as simply as "there is no grid capacity for them"
Yup, pluggable hybrid makes a lot of sense, particularly where hydro is a major source of power. I'm on a time of use meter, night costs $.08 while peak summer afternoon is $.40, 5x higher because the marginal costs for power is so much higher.
Many of the alternative sources for power produce at night - wind, thermo, wave, nuclear... Increased demand and somewhat higher night time prices make these more cost effective as alternatives to Coal.
Heck, plug in vehicles are going to be essentially coal powered but at extremely low efficiencies.
Rob Dawg
Not so.
Your gasoline powered automobile gets what? Maybe 12% thermal efficiency? That 25% + that I hear about is only near redline, not in bumper to bumper traffic which is so characteristic of commuting.
The average base-load plant, which is what is generating the power to recharge the plug-in hybrid, has a thermal efficiency of over 50%. Some, with special topping cycles, can get over 80%.
So, the air does not suffer because of plug-in hybrids. It gets better, regardless of where the base-load plant is located.
Whenever you meet someone who drives a Tahoe, Suburban, or Expidition etc, just remind them that Osama loves their ride. All the better if they have a U.S. flag flying from the antena, the back filled with yellow ribbon magnets, support out troops bumper stickers and those little oval W04 stickers.
Oh God no please. Save us all from this. The curse of the mileage braggart.
My bicycles get about 600 mpg. It depends how much meat I eat that day. I have a car, but I don't care about gas prices. I care about diesel prices because diesel fuel powers the trucks, planes, trains, and ships that bring food to me.
Rednecks with big trucks they don't need? Going to pull that livestock and farm equipment with your corolla?? Laughable. Next time you pass a guy like me in a 7.3L diesel and scoff,..think about one thing nature boy, My diesel is burning cleaner than your corolla and in my case,..it's free, or esentially free. Now if you can't figure it out how I run my big truck for free, that's your problem. Do some research instead of falling in line with all the other sheep and telling everyone you hug trees for self gratification. As a matter of fact, I'm looking for a nice Exxon Valdez with a diesel for my wife. Notice how those AREN'T so cheap though.
Rob, nicely done. My son is doing some research into using solar to turn water into hydrogen and then heat homes. Cost per watt on solar cells has come way down and using the combos you mention mention make off grid living a nice reality.
I go just under 6'4", the last thing I want to do is try to squeeze into an Accord or Civic. I generally like Japanese made vehicles, but most are not made for people who are much over 6'.
Sorry, but the ability to change radio stations with my knee is not a feature I desire.
Lurker | 05.09.08 - 11:14 am | #
Lurker,
I'm 6'5" 265 lbs. I drive a Suzuki Areo and it has more room than most U.S. midsize cars. The key to leg room is not how big the car is, but how far back the front seat slides back. Get low 30's milage, mostly highway in high 70's mph.
I think it's about choices and if i had to thank someone it would probably be god for the fact that I live in a country that allows me choice. If you want to drive a small death trap to save 300-400 dollars a year, ..go ahead. That car won't pull my trailers or haul the multitude of people I need to haul. I can certainly understand the person who needs to have a small car as they drive a gazzilion miles a week. To ask drivers of larger vehicles to thank Osama is a childish statement and insulting.
Honestly, my ideal scenario is to do as little driving as possible and save the car for times I enjoy driving. I drive to work because it's a necessity, and I'd just as soon drive to work in such a way that it would cost me as little as humanly possible.
The commute to work is a waste: it consumes your time and your money that could be used on other things.
There are certain trips and outings for which the drive is part of the experience and worth paying for, but the commute to work is not one of them.
Gas taxes are too low. Jack 'em up to about $2/gallon. Legitimate business use by corporations get to write the tax off. If you're self employed and didn't have the sense to incorporate that's your problem.
I am glad that SUV owners are going to have to pay the price for their decisions. I still predict that the price of oil is going to fall later this summer. I think it will drop drastically, around 20-30% in a very short period of time.
my 73 vw 181 gets 28/32, room for two gorillas and two orangutans, and with the top down there is lots of room to throw things on the roll bar or bungee them to the bumpers, etc. and the machine gun mount kit, still available, will handle ever more hostile fellow drivers
Seems to be a few misconceptions about small cars around here. The cars designed by Japanese companies are bigger and heavier than they used to be when the first Honda Civics appeared. Most are built in the USA as well.
My 2003 Honda Civic is over 3000 lbs, can seat 5, gets about 38 mpg on the highway and was built in Alliston, Ontario-Honda also has 2 plants in Ohio and a plant in Tennessee. Toyota has 2 plants in Canada and 6 in the USA.
I believe a lot of those Escalades were built in Mexico, at least until 2006.
Regarding the problem of EV use shifting emissions from the tailpipe to the smokestack, there are developments in solar PV efficiency improvement, increased production capacity, and consequently better affordability that are happening in parallel with the improved battery systems that will make mass produced EV's possible. At least two large PV producers expect their products to be competitive with grid pricing within another two to three years. Beyond that point charging your EV with power produced on the rooftop of your home isn't altogether out of the question. At the very least it can relieve a lot of the pressure that would otherwise be exerted on the grid.
If we'd spent a tiny fraction of what's been wasted in Iraq on expediting this process, we'd all be driving EV's on power produced from solar already.
60 mpg from a modern small-displacement (600cc or under) fuel-injected motorcycle doesn't seem unrealistic to me. My 1985 BMW K100 usually gets around 35 mpg. It's 23 years old, has over 60k miles, worn piston rings, oversized injectors, and 1000cc engine. My dad's old '94 Virago 1100- a carbureted v-twin cruiser, not exactly designed for economy- got close to 40mpg.
As for electics:
Another factor of switching emmissions from tailpipes to smokestacks (nice phrasing btw) is that a single big smokestack is much easier to monitor and scrub than 10 million tailpipes.
Another thing, Redwood, is that PV isn't the only form of solar power. The 64mw plant in Boulder City, NV is a solar thermal plant that uses trough-shaped reflectors to concentrate heat to drive steam turbines.
As for the criticism that suddenly switching to plug-in hybrids would overwhelm the grid... that's true but it's irrelevant. It's a red herring. NOTHING is going to happen suddenly or overnight. New power plants and grid improvements will be built as demand requires, and not sooner. If every single new car were a plug-in or electric, and we all know that's not going to happen, it would still be at least a decade before the entire fleet of personally-owned vehicles were replaced.
Regarding motorcycles, although I am not the OP, I will toss it out here.
I bought a 2006 Kawasaki Ninja 250 last year specifically for commuting, after having moved further from my office. It gets around 60-70 mpg. Paid $3100 in Portland, Oregon. At time of sale it had around 3K miles on it. In this area it is really only practical for commuting during late spring and summer months, however.
As for the criticism that suddenly switching to plug-in hybrids would overwhelm the grid... that's true but it's irrelevant. It's a red herring. NOTHING is going to happen suddenly or overnight.
Better yet, if you leave your car plugged in when it's not in use, the grid supplier can cut you a lower kw rate for the permission to use that power sink to help keep the grid stable. The power companies are salivating at this idea since it's a network infrastructure that they'd love to have, but can't possibly afford to install. In this case it would install itself through the marketplace. It's so elegant a solution it brings the EE in me to tears.
Absolute power supply is easy, delivering stable power in a landscape of shifting load, that's bloody difficult. Right now they take the nighttime oversupply and run water up into reservoirs and do other silly tricks to store it for peak demand during the day. In the future, they can just run it into the batteries of the cars plugged into everyone's garage and it will be already distributed to even out the load locally.
Every time some PC fanboi rants about Apple/Steve Jobs, I merely smile slyly and ask them about their registry, or how Vista is working out for them
Not every PC runs Windows, my friend.
You better tell us how much your minor version upgrade costs? And what you gonna do if you want to put a HDTV tuner in your Mac, but do not want to get the only crappy model Apple sells, and want to get a better model (which also cost less)? Guess what, you're out of luck, your model is not supported, and will never be. What if you decide you need more powerful CPU or two more gigs of RAM? Buy a new Mac.
Each choice has its own benefits and drawbacks. There is no perfect choice.
Or you could save it to live in.
"High fuel prices are causing the value of used SUVs to plummet, often below what's listed in the buying guides many shoppers use to negotiate with dealers."
Good riddance to bad rubbish. SUVs are despicable---in addition to killing people in smaller cars in collisions at an unacceptably high rate (in return for no general increase in safety for their owners, due to rollovers), they worsen gridlock by about 10--12% according to one study. How? Because smaller cars trailing them must back off a bit to see around them, resulting in fewer vehicles making it through lights.
Not to mention that they're ugly and handle like crap.
I don't think anything has cheered me up more lately than the thought of all those McMansions with big honkin' SUVs up on blocks in the front yard.
Like these folks probably have any idea why you'd store a car on blocks in the first place . . . it'll probably be more like a bunch of old SUVs with flat tires and bent rims coming on the market in a year . . .
I shouldn't be so nasty, but my little Corolla has been tailgated by too many of the damned things for too many years for me to locate any sympathy in the depths of what passes for my heart . . .
No need for the Morgenson snark. She has a piece on the front page of the Times today. Perfect opportunity for you to mount your hobby horse and go to the whip.
Take out the roof, put a couple of steel bars and your SUV will turn to a beautiful Mad Max buggy
Even better than Honda full of silver and AK-47...
but my little Corolla
tmi
fred, you're beginning to sound a little . . . obsessed . . . with defending Gretchen. People on glass hobby horses shouldn't crack whips, as the old saying goes.
tmi
?
One of our cars is a Honda CR-V - which has a 4 cylinder engine, and I'm already embarassed by the mileage I get (and looking longingly at a Prius). I can't imagine what its like to drive an Explorer, Sequoia, or Suburban as your dialy commuter nowadays.
Lets hope oil never becomes so expensive that the values of homes in the outer suburbs plummet as New Urbanism takes hold. Its certainly not just subprime then and will affect greater than 4% of homeowners.
If you have the cash for a McMansion, I doubt you are worried about losing a few grand on an SUV.
Banker
too much info... i like to think of you in a spider or 356, somthin classic
NEUR = "newly-under-employed Realtors. "
love it.
NUER is even better.. I type too fast...
But on the other side of the coin...
OUTSTANDING. Been looking for a good used Excursion for a couple of years. Everybody wanted top dollar for the used ones. I just missed a 2003 with 70k miles for 5100. If it's paid for and you only carry liability insurance who cares what kind of milage it gets ??? My new favorite saying "Got cash?".
Chris
I can absorb an extra $40 per month in increased fuel cost much more easily than $300 + per month for a new, fuel efficient tin can. And the comfort is so much better.
The next generation of gas guzzler needs to be much more fuel efficient (> 30 mpg) at replacement time or I will scale down. Here that Detroit ?
AutoNation's Jackson says he thinks affluent buyers may be hanging on to their SUVs even after they buy newer, more fuel-efficient vehicles, banking on gasoline prices falling so they can sell their big SUVs later for a better price.
Gee, holding on because they're unwilling to accept the market price...I haven't seen THAT behavior much lately....NOT.
From yesterday's Post and Crudele, car lease walkaways.
LOSE THE LEASE: CARS ARE CREDIT CRUNCH'S NEW VICTIMS - NYPOST.com
"According to Argus Research, about 0.24 percent of lease payments are now between 60 and 90 days past due, while around 1.5 percent of leaseholders have missed one payment. Both figures are higher than average and are on the rise, though they haven't reached levels seen during the 2001 mini-recession.
There are no numbers available on how many people are just walking away from car leases, essentially doing what a number of homeowners whose homes are worth less than their mortgages are doing - turning in their keys to the lender."
"but my little Corolla has been tailgated by too many of the damned things for too many years for me "
Uh, maybe your driving too slowly, dear.
Banker writes:
If you have the cash for a McMansion, I doubt you are worried about losing a few grand on an SUV.
Ummm, Banker, isn't that kinda the problem? The McMansions weren't bought for cash. They were bought with no money down subprime / alt A /option ARM nightmare mortgages and now the McMansion "owners" (snark) can afford neither the resets on the house nor the fuel for the SUV. Oh, and both are falling in value. Hucoodanode?
"If you have the cash for a McMansion, I doubt you are worried about losing a few grand on an SUV."
I doubt many people bought a McMansion with cash. And many who are currently occupants of McMansions, are probably hard enough up on cash where a few grand could make a big difference.
No fair sterlingerl, you beat me to the punch.
Crude Oil Rises to Record Above $125 as Nigeria Violence Draws Speculators
Rebates Will Fail to Spark U.S. Economy as Fuel Prices Soar, Survey Shows
There's something to be said for driving into the gas station on fumes and filling up for $35 - Honda Civic, Hatchback.
Tanta, you finally put up a nice little well edited piece but you can't help yourself and drag your bete noir into it out of nowhere. But I'm the one who is obsessed.
We breathlessly await your 5000 words on the evils of rent control and how unfair Gretchen is to billionaire private equity managers who are just trying to make a buck like the rest of us.
Been looking for a good used Excursion for a couple of years... I just missed a 2003 with 70k miles for 5100.
A quick perusal of Ebay indicates that there should be a "1" in front of that "5100."
My advice is to buy that gas guzzler or 400hp sports car now and enjoy it while you still can, because the era of easy ownership of them is pretty much coming to an end.
If it's paid for and you only carry liability insurance who cares what kind of milage it gets ???
Well, it depends on how many miles you drive every month.
cjkubx writes:
Lets hope oil never becomes so expensive that the values of homes in the outer suburbs plummet as New Urbanism takes hold...
Have you read "The Long Emergency"? RIP SUV, and good riddance too. With all the smart guys at the US auto firms, you would think they could have seen this coming. This was all predicted, years ago, and not just by Kunstler.
Be glad you are not paying UK prices. In London, unleaded fuel is about £1.10 per litre. I think that is something scary like $10/gallon, but I try not to think about and use my car so infrequently that I'm never sure if the battery will be dead or not...
Roads around here are getting mightyempty on weekends.
it's very simple, write down the value of any loans on the SUV by 15% of the blue book value. let's just bail everybody out.
Yeah bailing out the big three auto companies has led to a healthy industry.
Everyone thinks their junk is worth more than it is. I remember trying to trade in a decent mazda 5 years ago and the dealer offered me $800 trade in. The blue book was $2,200. My wife sold it to her brother for $1,200 and he sold it for $2,000. I bet that car is still running.
I currently drive a full sized pickup. I've had it for 10 years and it has about 35,000 miles on it. I get terrible gas mileage, but I don't drive much so it isn't costing much. I used to spend about $60/month on gas. Now I spend about $100/month. Not a big deal.
The station where I fill up won't let me put more than $75 in the tank on a single fillup. I have a 34 gallon tank, so I can easily exceed this amount. My hunch is it's a safety feature that needs to be updated with new gas prices.
Well, my big mistake was replacing my Pontiac with a.... Pontiac.
I had a good reason, though. My company's a preferred vendor, which got me a $1800 discount off the list price, right off the bat.
This will be the last internal combustion auto I buy, though.
The idea that anybody gains self-esteem from the size of the vehicle they drive just cracks me up. All autos look more or less like other autos. They all do the same thing. Likewise for pickups. If you have to tow or carry heavy stuff regularly, sure, buy what you need. But for commuting to work and carrying a few bags of grass seed every couple of months?? You're driving a pickup for THAT??
I suppose one could have a hobby of differentiating one vehicle from another via subtle distinctions. But for what end? You don't learn anything about the world, you can't relate the knowledge to anything else. I suppose you can memorize statistics - this one has this #of cubic inches engine - but again, to what end?
People who actually gain self-esteem from a vehicle - can they really be interesting?
You will only take their SUV's away from them thusly: out from under their cold, dead, seated-positon.
fred = gretchen.
I have a CR-V as well.. and couldn't be happier. Tall enough to see around / through the stupid SUV's, with good enough gas mileage to not think about switching.
Aside from the boats, mileage problems are a result of a mismatch of vehicle to engine.. the honda pilot and toyota 4runner also get around 20 MPG, and they're a size bigger than the CR-V/RAV4 breed.
FWIW, all years of the lincoln town car and cadillac sedan deville get worse mileage than the CR-V and all small cars like the toyota. What's the cop car of choice? Yep, lincoln.
Morality is a funny thing. Lefties have been talking about all the evils of SUVs for a decade. I love it when karma comes a callin'. Wal-Mart, you're next.
Oil at $126 - heck of a job, Bennie.
I've been trying to trade in my 5 year old SUV for the past 3 months.
No takers, on my terms that is.
Despite the fact that KBB and Edmunds say that the trade in value is $10k, the last offer I've been given was $3k.
Dealers simply don't want them, if they do, it will be on their terms (at a significant discount).
Talked to a local salesman that I've used before. He says he gets at least a half dozen SUV trade-in requests a day, most all of them walk away upset.
Interesting anecdote, he says that Cadillac Escalade owners are typically the most upset. At best, for a 2004 Escalade in excellent condition, they would offer $6-7k. This is a truck that originally had a $50,000 sticker.
Hmm, I've actually been leaning toward getting a small 4wd myself, this may encourage me in that direction. My commute is in a forty-seater with thirty-nine of my best friends, so whatever vehicle I get will not see a lot of miles, just for shopping and social activities, where extra space would be nice.
And it needs to be said: some of the used compacts and mid-sizeds out there are overpriced. I realize that Hondas are reliable, but it is absolutely ridiculous when people try to get away with putting a price on a ten-year-old Accord that strongly resembles the original sticker price.
Have'nt had a car for 6 years. no fuel cost, no insurance cost, no headache. sf,nyc. best decision ever. if you can make that adjustment, you may find yourself pretty happy also.
Goodness. It certainly is sounding like a 1970s rerun.
People in St. Petersburg were so unnerved at the time by gas lines and purchase restrictions, the Times classified soon overflowed with luxury cars on offer at panic prices. To say they overshot on the downside is to say too little.
An anesthesiologist I knew at the time bought and warehoused eight enormous luxury barges for half a year or so and resold them when sanity returned.
I guess if you're a bit counter-cultural, or if your investing philosophy is contrarian, it may be time to load up on nearly-new Escalades?
There is something to be said for getting hit by another driver and walking away -- Silverado 2500HD
How much gas can a stay at home mom use for her SUV just driving around town? Ever tried to put a family with car seats into one of those little commuter cars?
If they wait to sell them at a higher price, wont their increasing age cause depreciation that will nullify any gain in sales price should gas go back to $3?
Or am I an idiot?
For some years I've been telling my stepson that his not having a car could hurt his employment options since here in the lovely Minneapolis/St. Paul metro many workplaces are only gotten to by car. Well, he just got a job on a bus line and is paying only $35 a month for an unlimited transit pass. Smart kid!
I think trying to mothball Escalades for profit would be a terrible idea. I don't see gas prices going down substantially over the long haul, plus these gigantic things aren't going to age well. The unlikely possibility of some profit is well overshadowed by the likely total writeoff of investment, plus being laughed at for years by your relatives.
We had a chance in the last decade to figure out how to conserve. Now we will be forced to. Guess which is more painful.
Ode to the CTA
Ah, wonderful Chicago Transit
Your coughing, farting passengers
join in singing your praises
Missed bus! Damn!
Ah here comes another!
Standing in the rain
Safe in the thought that I am saving
on gas!
Please Hummers
VWs
and BMWs
Don't run me down!
Ah, CTA...to you loyal I remain:
Now and always!
Best regards...everyone have a great day.
What makes these markdowns on trade ins significant is that a lot of people borrowed more than 100% of value on car loans. People have been able to roll balances left on trade ins into loans for new cars, adding as much as 25% to the new loan.
At best, for a 2004 Escalade in excellent condition, they would offer $6-7k.
I think he's trying to lowball you.
The current trade-in value is more like $18k for the vehicle you described.
Eric, I'm not sure if I was kidding or not.
But your reasoning is just what caused the land yacht owners of the time to cut prices to nearly nothing, and is also what kept nearly all buyers away.
As to now being when we are forced to conserve, remember gasoline tripled in price very quickly then, there was no way of knowing how long the embargo would continue or what sort of recovery would follow, and no assurance that fuel prices would come down much if at all when supplies were restored.
For the record, I can't imagine owning an Escalade even if it ran on frymax.
Heh, heh, heh...and to add to Sue's observation about guys and their cars, here's one doofus who has way more money that sense. Not content with buying obsolete cars, he goes for whole companies full of obsolete cars.
"...Kerkorian May Increase Ford Stake Beyond 5.6 Percent - May 9 (Bloomberg) -- Billionaire investor Kirk Kerkorian said he may increase his Ford Motor Co. stake beyond 5.6 percent as he followed up on his plan to buy additional shares...Kerkorian's Tracinda Corp. will pay $8.50 for each of 20 million additional shares that will give him 5.6 percent of the world's third-largest automaker. Tracinda began buying Ford shares on April 2 and disclosed April 28 it had acquired 100 million for a 4.7 percent stake..."
And Sue I think they say the same thing about us and shoes etc, e.g. "what's so special about jimmychoo?". There are just some mysteries in the universe that will always be thus.
I just made the last payment on my 2003 Honda Civic last month.
I believe Nelson Muntz says it best:
YouTube -
I think he's trying to lowball you.
Those books are a waste of time. I learned my lesson when I was 13 years old trying to sell baseball cards for what the "Beckett" said they were worth. Funny, no card dealer in town would honor their quoted prices.
I stormed out of the first dealer I spoke to, he offered me a $6,000 trade.
In retrospect, I should have taken it, I didn't realize that he really was making me a good trade offer.
I've spoken to more than a dozen dealers at this point, trade prices quoted have been in a similar range.
Private party is the only real option for SUV owners trying to get rid of their vehicles.
Try trading in your truck, just for kicks.
If they wait to sell them at a higher price, won't their increasing age cause depreciation that will nullify any gain in sales price should gas go back to $3?
Well, it kinda depends on how much you pay for it up front.
If I could pick up an Escalade with a blue-book of $20k for $6k (and had somewhere to store it), I'd do it in a heartbeat. That's a huge margin of safety built in, with the potential for a big upside if gas falls back to $2.50 in 12-18 months.
If I had to pay $15k, not so much, unless I was planning on using it as my daily car anyway. But in that case, it's not considered an investment, right? (ducks)
Grim, I had the same experience with comic books. The same dealer who sold me new comics for over $1 apiece offered me a nickel a book....
[i]I think he's trying to lowball you.
The current trade-in value is more like $18k for the vehicle you described.[/i]
If that dealer has 5 Eksalays sitting in on lot not moving, do you think he gives a flying fuck what it says in a book?
yours in Christ,
Isamu
Mark to model in action.
What good is the fact that some book says the value is $10k, if none of the dealers I've spoken to will offer me anywhere near that?
I can cry until my face is as blue as the book, they won't caught up another penny.
Wow, I don't think I've ever seen such a uniformly emotional series of comments ever on any subject on Calculated Risk.
At 15mpg and a (high) typical 1000 miles per month and $4 gas you pay $270. Doubling to 30 mpg in a newish Civic saves you $140 per month. That s the same as a $10k price difference with a typical auto loan or using cash value lost opportunity cost.
One obvious point here: the margin on new SUVs and pickups was huge. That's why Detroit ramped up production on them.
Mostly on finance, natch.
Now, even though GM and Ford make small, efficient cars outside the US, they're being beaten to market by the Fit, Echo and Scions.
Sterlingerl, there is nothing unique about jimmychoo. But that's a good comparison - overspending on an item that actually hurts you (financially and physically).
Got rid of my last pair of heels last year, after not wearing them for 10 years. I never look at anyone else's shoes, and I don't think anyone else does either. Only if the wearer calls attention to them, "Do you like these _______." Truthfully, they all look the same. If they more or less match the outfit, seem appropriate to the outfit, and allow me to walk where I wish, that's all I ask from a shoe. Take the labels off and nobody can tell one strap sandal from another.
This is for W.
I think you are being sarcastic about the stay at home Moms "needing" an SUV.
I am a SAHM, and so sick of people telling me I need a minivan. No! I do not!
It is true -- having a rear-facing seat behind the driver is rough. But typically -- put the baby behind the passenger. Put a toddler in a forward-facing behind the driver. Put the kid in the booster in the middle.
I only have one kid, pregnant with my second, so how do I need a minivan?
Oh, for my stroller. Well... an umbrella stroller goes in the floor for convenience, and really, my big stroller fits just fine in the trunk, even with a load of groceries.
Sorry for the rant but this is a HUGE pet peeve I have... we have two paid off cars and I am not going to go work part-time at a daycare to pay for a minivan.
Drives me so crazy.
grim/Isamu-
The dealers use something called NADA books, and KBB/Edmunds (consumer equivalent) are not all that far off - (maybe +/-5%, but not +/-67%).
The NADA is a pretty simple method, it's not even a model, it's basically just a report of what average sales broken down out by make/model/year/cond as recorded at the AUTO AUCTIONS in the previous quarter.
Chances are, your Caddy dealer would't put that SUV on their lot even if they did take it in trade. They will roll it through the auction, and some rinkydink dealer on the south side of town with multicoloured triangular flags strung lamppost-to-lampost will have it on his lot next month.
"It's a challenge," says Adam Lee, president of the Lee Auto Malls dealerships in Maine. "How do you tell a good customer, 'You paid $32,000 and now it's only worth $17,000?' "
I know gas prices are high. But they aren't that high. If you're trading in a 1 or 2 year old vehicle and you're losing $15,000 in the deal, then you're financially better off just paying for the gas.
I, for one, will buy an old, giant Suburban soon. For weekends with the kids. Perhaps 5K.
Something to let the kids spill fruit juice in. It will be a joy to hurl 3 muddy bikes (fully assembled) right into the cavernous trunk area on any given Saturday.
I have a little car for commuting.
OT,
Just finished Kunstler's World Made by Hand the other day. Not as dark as I thought. Rules regarding monogamy and drinking and smoking are greatly relaxed in his future. He made a pretty good case for locally grown political structures after cheap energy.
jinchi-
I think you are on the right track.
What we are seeing more of, is people keeping whatever car they have (own, not the leasers) and keeping it in good repair.
If you have a pickup or SUV that is in good shape, or can be put into good shape with some skilled mechanical work, you are better off not taking on a huge new loan to drive an instantly-depreciating still-uses-gas new car.
The smart money repairs the car they have that is already paid-for, keeps good tires on it and remembers to change the oil, tries to make sense out of errands so gas is used but not wasted, and saves the monthly payment expense.
Buying a new car is rarely a net savings! Find a good mechanic that you trust...ask around...old guys in barbershops often know of such things.
A post entitled "Severely Underwater Vehicles" without a single mention of Ted Kennedy?
quackprogrammer writes:
...Rules regarding monogamy and drinking and smoking are greatly relaxed in his future...
Oh my god!! America is turning European! Things really must be bad over there.
"Why, you should just hire some newly-under-employed Realtors®. They've had some practice at that kind of thing lately."
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
I needed that today...thanks!
One of your quotes was from Lee Auto in Maine. These guys specialize in the "sub-prime" selling of Autos. The TV always have "No Credit? No money down affordable cars ..." ads from Lee. Their business model is to sell used junk autos at inflated prices and outrageous rates to bad credit buyers. I think they sell each car 2-3 times ... because they end up repo-ing them back after the buyers default.
I'd expect no less from these guys. They screw the folks on their trade-in value, again on the purchase price, again on the interest rate, and over and over on the warrantee ... it really is blatant.
I wouldn't believe a word they say after dealing with them one time in 1985.
quackprogrammer - I think you should buy grim's vehicle. We don't need him grim and bitter.
I think like you do. I have an SUV (bought used - so my dogs can vomit in it without getting me too worked up) that thing gets 15 mpg, but my motorcycle (bought new) gets 60 mpg - so on balance, it's as if I drove a late-model Carolla.
Tell me, SUV-fans, if the American way of life is non-negotiable, what are those dirt stains on your knees? Why are your kids eating cheese doodles instead of milk and eggs?
Maybe they can ship used H2'a to Iraq.
Cut the roof out; cammy paint job;
some armor plate; 50-cal.
Only driven on Sundays by eMe-18.
Bullet holes and blood stains standard.
Rob, it's not the "average" consumer that drives 1000 miles a month who is moving the numbers. The change is being driven by the marginal consumers who spend hours in their car every day, driving over 3000 miles a month while paying huge amounts for interest on the loan, taxes to local governments, and insurance. For an expensive SUV, that adds up very fast, and the price of gas is what is pushing them over the edge. They try to trade in the SUV for a smaller, cheaper car (saving not just on gas but on insurance, tax etc.), and then get reverse sticker shock when they find out that everyone else is trying to do the same thing.
peppermint,
I think you might be misunderstanding my position. I'm not bitter, frankly I don't even care, it's a numbers game to me, and the numbers say drive the SUV.
I'm simply adding an additional anecdote to the story posted by Tanta. I should count my blessings, I either bike, walk, or drive the 4 miles to my place of business each day. I don't need to sell my SUV, nor is the gas, maintenance, or insurance a burden on me.
However, I'm sure that it is a burden on a number of our fellow citizens. Not only are they "trapped" in high fuel costs, the barrier to exit is enormous, especially if the vehicle was financed.
(NAR ON) It is a great time to buy an SUV (NAR OFF).
I love my 2002 Echo. And yes, it is a pain when we had to fit 3 kids and 2 were in booster seats, but it was a pain for the kids, not us
However, now that we only need one booster seat for the three, it's not really a problem.
However, it's a bit depressing lately; when I first bought it in 2004 and gas prices were 0.90-1.01 per liter I couldn't possibly fit $30 into the car, so choosing "30" for the debit transaction always guaranteed a full tank. Now, I've found that if I choose to fill up to $40 worth I can't guarantee a full to the brim tank ... and that was at the momentary dip of gas being 1.167 when it was 1.20 the day before and 1.22 the day after. Ah well, at 18km per day round trip to work, and good gas mileage I'm not filling up that often.
The only problem with the Echos, is the wind pushes it around a lot.
Rob Dawg is exactly right. The premium paid plus loan cost for a new gas saver does not offset the increase in gas prices. Jump on the hamster wheel if you want. I've got four kids and two dogs. We travel everywhere and I will keep my bigger vehicle. Just like I invest, buy low and sell high.
"A quick perusal of Ebay indicates that there should be a "1" in front of that "5100."
My advice is to buy that gas guzzler or 400hp sports car now and enjoy it while you still can, because the era of easy ownership of them is pretty much coming to an end.
If it's paid for and you only carry liability insurance who cares what kind of milage it gets ???
Well, it depends on how many miles you drive every month.
Tyro | 05.09.08 - 8:09 am | #
Nope,5100.00 is correct. Sold it in less than a day on Autotrader. Used trucks are not worth shit in SW Florida right now. As for the 400hp cars I have a few...Once again they are not daily drivers but for fun. I just put 2100 miles on the Cobra at 15mpg and had more fun than going to Disney. Total gas cost was about 550.00 for the trip. How much do people spend on a normal vacation ??? Gas is a incidental cost for me...Even at 10.00 gallon I am still gonna drive...
Chris
The change is being driven by the marginal consumers who spend hours in their car every day, driving over 3000 miles a month while paying huge amounts for interest on the loan, taxes to local governments, and insurance. For an expensive SUV, that adds up very fast, and the price of gas is what is pushing them over the edge.
Yep, one of my central tenents. Many modern consumers were incorrectly trained to look at the monthly nut and were never even taught about TOC or ROI. I just don't have any sympathy for someone driving a SUV 3000 miles per month and carrying a high payment and other costs. We can just recycle the early Tanta exchanges about compassion and empathy substituting auto for house.
Oh and for the Kunstlerheads: Casey's Sweet Ride on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Fred said:
"We breathlessly await your 5000 words..."
Actually, we do. Maybe you just need to find another hobby there fred...
Peripheral Visionary | 05.09.08 - 10:50 am |
PV,
I giggle at all the people I work with who drove the high dollar cars/trucks and now bitch about all the associated costs. It is pretty amazing how when you drive a old used Neon,carry a very minimum of insurance(1.00/day) and generally dont give a crap what other people think of me,how much extra cash I have vs the people I work with...
Chris
Lesleyann has never had access to an SUV/Minivan with her kids.
I go just under 6'4", the last thing I want to do is try to squeeze into an Accord or Civic. I generally like Japanese made vehicles, but most are not made for people who are much over 6'.
Sorry, but the ability to change radio stations with my knee is not a feature I desire.
To refine Rob's estimate: When people bought these cars, they were already looking at $2 gas. So the extra cost from gas price increases is equivalent to only about $5000 in the sticker price. A 10-15K price reduction would only be rational with 200/barrel oil.
"Many modern consumers were incorrectly trained to look at the monthly nut and were never even taught about TOC or ROI. I just don't have any sympathy for someone driving a SUV 3000 miles per month and carrying a high payment and other costs. We can just recycle the early Tanta exchanges about compassion and empathy substituting auto for house.
Rob Dawg | Homepage | 05.09.08 - 11:09 am | #"
Mr. Dawg,
Whatttt ??? 3k a month at 12 mpg and 4.00/gal gas could get pricey...I used to get a laugh that people I work with literally were pissed at me cause I have a pretty good collection of vehicles. Then I remind em that what 15+ years of Geo Metros,Neons,Festivas And generally being a cheap bastard will get ya...
Shoot you should see the looks when I tell them I have the cash to buy a small place and don't give a crap about interest rates...
Chris
"ericblair writes:
I think trying to mothball Escalades for profit would be a terrible idea. I don't see gas prices going down substantially over the long haul, plus these gigantic things aren't going to age well. The unlikely possibility of some profit is well overshadowed by the likely total writeoff of investment, plus being laughed at for years by your relatives."
Yeah, because gas price NEVER fluctuates. Once they go up/down, they stay up/down - forever.
Perhaps there is more value in some of these vehicles as scrap. Buy one, break it down yourself and take the sheet metal, engine block, radiator, and so forth down to your local scrap dealer. I've been pondering this for a month or two, but haven't had the time to seriously pencil it out. Any thoughts?
Re: SUV Safety vs. Auto Safety
While SUVs as a group may not be safer for their occupants, a British study which broke down fatality rates by model clearly shows that the largest and most solid SUVs are essentially the safest cars on the road.
The Land Rover Defender, Toyota Land Cruiser, and Mercedes ML were the safest vehicles in the study. They were several times safer than other cars - even Volvos.
Wikipedia Summary of the Study:
Road accident statistics on a model-by-model basis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Link to Actual Studay, go to pages 9 and 10 for the vehicle data:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/162259/162469/221412/221552/228196/228215/carsmakeandmodeltheriskofdri1801
Brokeback Benny - yeah, it's not cost effective to buy an expensive Prius, but look at the cost and gas mileage of an Echo, and other similar small cars. Maybe if the 2009 prius gets the currently claimed 97mpg, and doesn't rise much in price, then it might make sense to get a hybrid. But Hybrids aren't the only vehicles with good gas mileage.
Lesleyann, not being sarcastic at all. My wife drives an Expedition. With 2 kids it is a necessity if you pick up friends, go out with grandma or just go on a family trip. With our third child it will be even more so. Since she does not work she does not commute and so gas costs are minimal per month. The car should last for 10 years easily so it is cheap insurance having a large (safer) utilitarian vehicle.
I drive 2000 miles a month for work and I am around a lot of crazy commuters who are in a hurry. Since two have totalled their vehicles hitting me in the last 10 years I insist on driving a huge vehicle that can take their best shot. 10 mpg is offset by the fact that I actually use the truck for work and that it is cheap insurance in case of an accident. Being self employed my business would suffer if I am in the hospital.
Likewise for pickups
I think you're lumping my Nissan with the F-150. If I only had one vehicle by choice, it would be a small pick-up. Still over 20 mpg and ability to throw stuff in the back.
Because of my work, I guess I could "justify" a large pick-up, except that their beds aren't any bigger than mine. WTF? And it doesn't make sense since I don't need to pull a trailer, problems parking, and paying for the higher insurance/gas/maintenance.
My wife's car is a Sentra, big enough for us, but I can see how it would be too small for the average US citizen.
On the other hand, if someone gave me an SUV, I'd consider it for the rare trips that we'd want to take the dogs along.
I generally suspect that people who advertise what kind of car they drive in their username are teenagers living out a fantasy. Every comment from "cobradriver" is a reply which has nothing to do with the original comment but is merely an opportunity to mention which car he (supposedly) wants to buy, what he (supposedly) drives, and how much money he (supposedly) has.
Tyro- you don't understand car guys. Although I think he might agree to the "living out a fantasy" part.
CobraDriver is a great contributor.
Lesleyann, The worry I have about using small cars for my family comes from an accident I was in. I kid was drunk coming off the freeway and slammed into the back of my truck. The truck was torqued a little but the little Japanese hatchback that hit me did something scary. Both front seats (with passengers) snapped and fell back flat into the back seat. If there had been passengers in the back they would have been badly hurt.
Yeah, because gas price NEVER fluctuates. Once they go up/down, they stay up/down - forever.
Previous crude oil price collapses may not be of good predictive value for future price movements.
If you don't understand the differing dynamics this time around by now you are either insulated in an ideological bubble (say 'hi' to Darth Cheney for me) or simply deficient in cognitive abilities.
Their business model is to sell used junk autos at inflated prices and outrageous rates to bad credit buyers. I think they sell each car 2-3 times ... because they end up repo-ing them back after the buyers default.
Car dealership as loan shark. This is not uncommon. They are just Hertz with tackier ads and an ability to screw your credit rating further.
Maybe if the 2009 prius gets the currently claimed 97mpg, and doesn't rise much in price, then it might make sense to get a hybrid.
Ahhh. The "plug in" hybrid. Remember what happened with ethanol and all the trouble that caused? T'weren't nuttin compared to what plug in hybrids will do to the electric grid. California road passenger vehicle petrol consumption is the equivalent of 40+ nuclear plants. Heck, plug in vehicles are going to be essentially coal powered but at extremely low efficiencies.
Shnaps - "but my motorcycle (bought new) gets 60 mpg"
What kind of bike is this, and about what range did you pay?
If you don't mind me asking.
Thank goodness the my-next-car-is-a-tractor-trailer age is over.
I am hugely relieved. Goodbye, ridiculous and unecessary off road vehicles for carting kids to soccer in flat, dry, and warm terrain. Jeesh.
This just makes me think of the television commercial I love to hate -
"Life is high school... with money"
Graduate - YouTube -
That cool guy (kid/adult?) driving that cool stuff (SUV)... hope he's feeling really stupid right about now. I've got two words for him - grow up!
What about diesel fuel cars? My European friends marvel that the US has not moved to diesel cars. They run just as well as gas fueled ones and they don't pollute. And they are much more economical.
"The station where I fill up won't let me put more than $75 in the tank on a single fillup. I have a 34 gallon tank, so I can easily exceed this amount. My hunch is it's a safety feature that needs to be updated with new gas prices."
It's not the station that limits you, it's your bank card. Different banks have different limits. If you take the card in and leave it with the cashier you can pump as much as you like. I wish I didn't need to know this...
Oh, sorry. i was at the nursery. Picked up a mother's day present; 15gal apricot tree for Mrs. Dawg. Wrestled that sucker into the Expedition and let the crown hang out the back. [Note to "w"; Dobsons on SR-118]. Mrs. Dawg took the '06 Civic to work today. Never would have happened if I were driving the "the clown car." We call it that because whenever the two adults and three kids are in it together the kids start singing circus music as we all pile in or out. Just two days ago picking up one we had to decline giving her friend a ride home, not enough space. That means some other adult made a special pick up trip and wasted gas that was far more than if we had been in one of the SUVs instead. BTU/pass mi is a lot more complex than reading the EPA sticker.
Lurker,
I think you'd fit into the Accord. I'm 6'3" and have one. The only thing is that I had to get a lower (LX) model because I didn't quite fit with the Moonroof which is on all higher equipped Accords.
When I saw the headline of this post, "Seriously underwater", I thought we'd have a story about strapped car owners driving their 3 year old Ford Exploitations into the river and reporting them stolen.
Well, if everyone is currently trying to trade in big cars for small ones, then you should do the exact opposite. It always pays off to do the opposite than the masses - just remember buying a home 1994 and 2005.
O-Joe
What about diesel fuel cars? My European friends marvel that the US has not moved to diesel cars. They run just as well as gas fueled ones and they don't pollute. And they are much more economical.
Chris | 05.09.08 - 12:11 pm | #
Chris,
Most people think diesel stinks/smokes. The latest generation may change that. The whole deal with ULSD and meeting the latest emission requirements is going to also cause some short term supply problems. I think once we get a few years under our belts with the 2010/urea injection/particle trap ordeal and the emissions become a proven item it will get better.
A current 05 long wheel base Sprinter will easily get 25mpg w/o babying it...
Chris
Corner Stone writes:
Shnaps - "but my motorcycle (bought new) gets 60 mpg"
What kind of bike is this, and about what range did you pay?
If you don't mind me asking.
I'm curious, too.
Tyro | 05.09.08 - 11:50 am | #
Christ,I am a ASE Master tech. Car guy at heart. Workaholic second. I just use the same handle on here as I do on the car boards I frequent. Jeez....
Chris
not enough space. That means some other adult made a special pick up trip and wasted gas that was far more than if we had been in one of the SUVs instead.
Rob, my solution to that: my Mercury Sable wagon. With the rear seat up, can actually seat 8. The dog loves the way back. With a Thule on top it can carry a boatload. Rides smooth, comfortable interior, good gas mileage. I've never been happier with a car.
Of course, Ford had to discontinue it, so you can only get used now. They shoulda discontinued the SUVs instead. If they had consulted me, they might not be broke today.
Didn't Caddy debut their 500 cu. in. behemoth at the height of the last crisis?
If yes, I expect a 12 cyl. 750 cu. in. from them any day now.
Outsider writes:
Rob, my solution to that: my Mercury Sable wagon.
Excellent platform, criminal engine/powertrain. The transverse duratec is a travesty. I always wanted to shoehorn the yahama into a wagon especially if the AWD could be retained. The ultimate sleeper car.
On topic, yes to an extent but now we are talking about shades of gray. Not everyone needs an Expedition sure but in a total lifecycle analysis if you are going to need one occasionally you need to do the math very carefully.
PV at 9:13
And it needs to be said: some of the used compacts and mid-sizeds out there are overpriced. I realize that Hondas are reliable, but it is absolutely ridiculous when people try to get away with putting a price on a ten-year-old Accord that strongly resembles the original sticker price.
Haven't you heard of getting equity in your vehicle?
.
Or you could save it to live in.
Heh indeedly-doodely. Remember Ken and Mysti Cope of San Clemente? And how he 'traded down' from a 'Vette to a Suburban? And how they had expenses of $10K a month but income of $1.8k/mth?
Maybe he was smarter than we all thought, to 'trade down' to that 'burban... before long that will be their home. But hey, they can still have that beachfront lifestyle... they just have to move it every 48 hours to avoid getting ticketed.
I'm really enjoying the schadenfreude wrt plummeting SUV values. Our troops are dying in the ME in no small part due to the demand for gasoline created by folks driving ginormous Urban Assault Vehicles, solely for the purpose of conspicuous consumption. I freakin' hate Hummers and most people who are driving Escalades and Expeditions, really don't need something that big.
I drive a Corolla which gets 34/38 (up to 42 if I stick to the speed limit on the fwy...). I get looked down upon for not owning a larger car, though I could certainly afford one. I think I am going to enjoy the vindication for a good, long while.
What about diesel fuel cars? My European friends marvel that the US has not moved to diesel cars. They run just as well as gas fueled ones and they don't pollute. And they are much more economical.
Last year during our annual Urine Peein' vacation, we leased a Peugeot minivan which got 40mpg on diesel. No kidding. Same for a VW minivan we rented the year before in Yurp.
"Remember what happened with ethanol and all the trouble that caused? T'weren't nuttin compared to what plug in hybrids will do to the electric grid"
YES! Spot on, 150% correct, thank you.
The problem isn't gasoline-burning vehicles, the problem is vehicles period.
We're setting ourselves up for some serious nightmares with this electric car BS. What most people don't get is that as important as it is to be able to drive, it is still a lot less necessary than electricity, especially in our society. But they'll learn, when all these idiots plug their Priuses in and the lights go out...for a week.
the other thing about vehicle choice that makes me cringe... good ol' boy rednecks driving ginormous diesel-powered pickups who don't really need one to haul around bales of hay and stuff, it's just their overcompensating, motorized version of a big ass belt buckle.
I think I am going to enjoy all the whining from these folks when gas hits $5/gallon.
Scooby, at least electricity generation lessens the demand for oil. It does shift the CO2 generation to coal and gas powered electricity generation facilities, typically (but not always) located in the sticks. I still say this is a problem which can be addressed; I prefer electric-powered vehicles over petroleum-powered vehicles. If we could convert the private vehicle fleet overnight to a substantially electric-powered one, we could at least have a viable option to extracting our troops from ME intrigues and even improve the strength of our currency.
Of course, because that's the ONLY possible choice: a mammoth SUV or a SMARTCar...
/pitying fools
I drive a Corolla which gets 34/38 (up to 42 if I stick to the speed limit on the fwy...).
Oh God no please. Save us all from this. The curse of the mileage braggart.
Consumer reports says: "The 130-hp, 1.8-liter Four is both quick and thrifty. Expect 29 mpg in mixed driving on regular fuel."
It's nice to get good fuel economy but it is the most incredibly boring thing to have to listen to the claims especially when so far from documented practical results.
I go just under 6'4", the last thing I want to do is try to squeeze into an Accord or Civic. I generally like Japanese made vehicles, but most are not made for people who are much over 6'.
Sorry, but the ability to change radio stations with my knee is not a feature I desire.
Lurker | 05.09.08 - 11:14 am | #
Hi, Lurker,
On the Diehards forum, one poster boasted that her 6'6" partner "easily fits" into her 2002 Toyota Echo:
Bogleheads :: View topic - Hybrid vs. Compact Car?
The Echo has been discontinued, but there might still be other non-SUVs out there that suit your frame.
"It does shift the CO2 generation to coal and gas powered electricity generation facilities, typically (but not always) located in the sticks"
...and the air over "the sticks" comes from the atmosphere over another planet, right?
It's nice to get good fuel economy but it is the most incredibly boring thing to have to listen to the claims especially when so far from documented practical results.
My claims are based on documented practical results. Every time I fill up, I write down the trip odometer reading and reset it and write down the amount of fuel purchased.
Bored? Don't listen.
...and the air over "the sticks" comes from the atmosphere over another planet, right?
Oh, I don't deny that it merely shifts the pollution from the city to the sticks, and that doesn't magically disappear just because urban dwellers can't see it; but this can be addressed, if only we had a government that wanted to do so.
For instance, we could take a fraction of the money being pissed away on the Iraq war - itself a product of our country's need to maintain stable access of the worldwide oil market to ME oil - and put it into researching ways to make coal burn more cleanly. Or, truly clean alternative energy sources like solar.
The curse of the mileage braggart.
shrug whatever. Save me from the curse of the people who hate me for having made wise choices.
Every time some PC fanboi rants about Apple/Steve Jobs, I merely smile slyly and ask them about their registry, or how Vista is working out for them, or the last time they got a virus on their computer, or how often they have to take their box in for maintenance because it has slowed to a crawl.
Paid cash for a Civic Hybrid two years ago; I figure I saved that much by driving the previous Honda for 12 years. The Hybrid is getting 42 mpg easy, the $3.90 + gas is just not an issue.
And the cool thing about the Civic is it's a stealth hybrid, so no attitude from the SUVs or Beemers.
Scooby writes:
"It does shift the CO2 generation to coal and gas powered electricity generation facilities, typically (but not always) located in the sticks"
...and the air over "the sticks" comes from the atmosphere over another planet, right?
Yes, exactly so. the urban core dwellers have any number of blind spots as to where their consumptive lifestyle derives. For all the "local jobs, shopping and lives" they don't mind flooding the hinterlands for their water and electricity and landfilling for garbage dumps.
I can even predict the responses. Invariably they will include a nasty or two about the current administration and/or the war. They will advocate clean energy alternatives all of which don't get built in urban cores (solar, wind, hydro). They will tout transit despite all the proof that transit does not save energy. So predictable.
Well, Rob what is your solution, then?
Unlike the people you like to piss upon, I am not pretending that those power plants up on the Navajo rez magically disappear all those particulate and CO2 emissions. What I am saying is that there are ways to address that, if only we had the will and leadership to do so.
Same for solar energy; imagine the leaps forward we could have made in making it more practical/productive if a fraction of the hundreds of billions of dollars spent on this wasteful war, had been put into solar energy research.
Invariably they will include a nasty or two about the current administration and/or the war.
Do you believe that the current administration is undeserving of harsh criticism?
Do you believe that the war in Iraq has not been a poor choice, or thaty it has not come at a tremendous opportunity cost?
Do you believe the current US energy paradigm is sustainable into the future, given the realities of peak oil/declining value of the dollar/global climate change due to human CO2 emissions?
If you are concerned about this as much as I am, please call your representatives and express your support for HR 2423-SUV Owners Preservation Act:
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That link got mangled, hopefully this one is better.
rnato, sprung writes:
Well, Rob what is your solution, then?
Classic redirection.
Unlike the people you like to piss upon,
Catching you lying about your Corolla mileage is hardly pissing on you.
I'll respond to civil inquiries however.
Cars are one thing...but this is sad:
According to some specialists, horses in the United States are being abandoned or neglected because of skyrocketing maintenance costs. See Horse experts see more unwanted horses, abandonment, neglect
Didn't Conjure always demand a pony. Need to check and see if people can take care of them first.
Regards,
I'm pleased that the resale values on my (fully paid for) Toyota Tundra and Toyota Sequoia are dropping ... less money to the state in property taxes at registration time and less in insurance premiums to the FIRE economy parasites.
We drive them an average of less than 8,000 miles per year (mostly winter - 4x4 is a wonderful thing when it snows 2+ ft. overnight) and most of my commute miles are by motorcycle at over 60 mpg during the other 3 seasons.
The best thing about the ever increasing price of gasoline is all the riff-raff it'll get off the roads. Fewer cars, less motorcyclists killed by clueless drivers of four or more wheeled vehicles.
Regarding pluggable hybrids:
I thought the burden to the electrical grid under such a strategy was minimized since most recharging would be done at night, when the grid demand is lowest. Thus this approach actually makes use of the as-now under-utilized nighttime base capacity of the system.
Not saying that PHEVs are the be-all and end-all solution, just that the PHEV approach can't be dismissed as simply as "there is no grid capacity for them"
A post entitled "Severely Underwater Vehicles" without a single mention of Ted Kennedy?
El Cliffo
Posts about three car garages without mention of George Bush driving through the rear wall of one after mild criticism by his wife?
Yup, pluggable hybrid makes a lot of sense, particularly where hydro is a major source of power. I'm on a time of use meter, night costs $.08 while peak summer afternoon is $.40, 5x higher because the marginal costs for power is so much higher.
Many of the alternative sources for power produce at night - wind, thermo, wave, nuclear... Increased demand and somewhat higher night time prices make these more cost effective as alternatives to Coal.
I'm sorry to be so late to this, but this video is very much needed!
YouTube -
Heck, plug in vehicles are going to be essentially coal powered but at extremely low efficiencies.
Rob Dawg
Not so.
Your gasoline powered automobile gets what? Maybe 12% thermal efficiency? That 25% + that I hear about is only near redline, not in bumper to bumper traffic which is so characteristic of commuting.
The average base-load plant, which is what is generating the power to recharge the plug-in hybrid, has a thermal efficiency of over 50%. Some, with special topping cycles, can get over 80%.
So, the air does not suffer because of plug-in hybrids. It gets better, regardless of where the base-load plant is located.
Whenever you meet someone who drives a Tahoe, Suburban, or Expidition etc, just remind them that Osama loves their ride. All the better if they have a U.S. flag flying from the antena, the back filled with yellow ribbon magnets, support out troops bumper stickers and those little oval W04 stickers.
Oh God no please. Save us all from this. The curse of the mileage braggart.
My bicycles get about 600 mpg. It depends how much meat I eat that day. I have a car, but I don't care about gas prices. I care about diesel prices because diesel fuel powers the trucks, planes, trains, and ships that bring food to me.
mileage braggart,...now thats funny!
Rednecks with big trucks they don't need? Going to pull that livestock and farm equipment with your corolla?? Laughable. Next time you pass a guy like me in a 7.3L diesel and scoff,..think about one thing nature boy, My diesel is burning cleaner than your corolla and in my case,..it's free, or esentially free. Now if you can't figure it out how I run my big truck for free, that's your problem. Do some research instead of falling in line with all the other sheep and telling everyone you hug trees for self gratification. As a matter of fact, I'm looking for a nice Exxon Valdez with a diesel for my wife. Notice how those AREN'T so cheap though.
Rob, nicely done. My son is doing some research into using solar to turn water into hydrogen and then heat homes. Cost per watt on solar cells has come way down and using the combos you mention mention make off grid living a nice reality.
I go just under 6'4", the last thing I want to do is try to squeeze into an Accord or Civic. I generally like Japanese made vehicles, but most are not made for people who are much over 6'.
Sorry, but the ability to change radio stations with my knee is not a feature I desire.
Lurker | 05.09.08 - 11:14 am | #
Lurker,
I'm 6'5" 265 lbs. I drive a Suzuki Areo and it has more room than most U.S. midsize cars. The key to leg room is not how big the car is, but how far back the front seat slides back. Get low 30's milage, mostly highway in high 70's mph.
Dirk,
I think it's about choices and if i had to thank someone it would probably be god for the fact that I live in a country that allows me choice. If you want to drive a small death trap to save 300-400 dollars a year, ..go ahead. That car won't pull my trailers or haul the multitude of people I need to haul. I can certainly understand the person who needs to have a small car as they drive a gazzilion miles a week. To ask drivers of larger vehicles to thank Osama is a childish statement and insulting.
Honestly, my ideal scenario is to do as little driving as possible and save the car for times I enjoy driving. I drive to work because it's a necessity, and I'd just as soon drive to work in such a way that it would cost me as little as humanly possible.
The commute to work is a waste: it consumes your time and your money that could be used on other things.
There are certain trips and outings for which the drive is part of the experience and worth paying for, but the commute to work is not one of them.
Gas taxes are too low. Jack 'em up to about $2/gallon. Legitimate business use by corporations get to write the tax off. If you're self employed and didn't have the sense to incorporate that's your problem.
Then we see who "needs" what.
Why should I subsidize corporations?
Check that - I'm getting 54.8 mpg - I don't want Rob Dawg to take me to task.
Guess I've been throttle happy lately.
PS, sorry, sdtfs - It's a kind of unique bike and I don't want you to be able to pick Tanta out if she borrows it for Sturgis this year.
I am glad that SUV owners are going to have to pay the price for their decisions. I still predict that the price of oil is going to fall later this summer. I think it will drop drastically, around 20-30% in a very short period of time.
Chrysler to pay anything above $2.99 a gallon for 3 years
Chrysler Pumps Up Incentives - Sun Sentinel
Shnaps- That's okay, I understand. So that's why she was reading Robert Pirsig's book, just in case she needs to do a little motorcycle maintenance.
my 73 vw 181 gets 28/32, room for two gorillas and two orangutans, and with the top down there is lots of room to throw things on the roll bar or bungee them to the bumpers, etc. and the machine gun mount kit, still available, will handle ever more hostile fellow drivers
Lurker: "I go just under 6'4", the last thing I want to do is try to squeeze into an Accord or Civic."
Hmm. I'm 6-3 and I drive a 1992 Honda Civic HB (I barely use it). I have no problems with driving position, comfort, or visibility.
Laughable. Next time you pass a guy like me in a 7.3L diesel and scoff...
Things musta changed since I was a kid and people in regular cars could tell real farm-used trucks by sight.
This scoffing is pretty much aimed at those who commute between subdivision and office park, and don't get any mud on their rides.
Their wants aren't needs. Their idea of "truck" doesn't extend back more than 20-odd years. But I'm sure you know that.
"Chrysler to pay anything above $2.99 a gallon for 3 years"
Wow. Too bad buyers won't be able to collect on that, because Chrysler will be gone in three years.
Seems to be a few misconceptions about small cars around here. The cars designed by Japanese companies are bigger and heavier than they used to be when the first Honda Civics appeared. Most are built in the USA as well.
My 2003 Honda Civic is over 3000 lbs, can seat 5, gets about 38 mpg on the highway and was built in Alliston, Ontario-Honda also has 2 plants in Ohio and a plant in Tennessee. Toyota has 2 plants in Canada and 6 in the USA.
I believe a lot of those Escalades were built in Mexico, at least until 2006.
Regarding the problem of EV use shifting emissions from the tailpipe to the smokestack, there are developments in solar PV efficiency improvement, increased production capacity, and consequently better affordability that are happening in parallel with the improved battery systems that will make mass produced EV's possible. At least two large PV producers expect their products to be competitive with grid pricing within another two to three years. Beyond that point charging your EV with power produced on the rooftop of your home isn't altogether out of the question. At the very least it can relieve a lot of the pressure that would otherwise be exerted on the grid.
If we'd spent a tiny fraction of what's been wasted in Iraq on expediting this process, we'd all be driving EV's on power produced from solar already.
braggart
moped=150mpg
Item# 59202 Sold Out | Northern Tool + Equipment
60 mpg from a modern small-displacement (600cc or under) fuel-injected motorcycle doesn't seem unrealistic to me. My 1985 BMW K100 usually gets around 35 mpg. It's 23 years old, has over 60k miles, worn piston rings, oversized injectors, and 1000cc engine. My dad's old '94 Virago 1100- a carbureted v-twin cruiser, not exactly designed for economy- got close to 40mpg.
As for electics:
Another factor of switching emmissions from tailpipes to smokestacks (nice phrasing btw) is that a single big smokestack is much easier to monitor and scrub than 10 million tailpipes.
Another thing, Redwood, is that PV isn't the only form of solar power. The 64mw plant in Boulder City, NV is a solar thermal plant that uses trough-shaped reflectors to concentrate heat to drive steam turbines.
As for the criticism that suddenly switching to plug-in hybrids would overwhelm the grid... that's true but it's irrelevant. It's a red herring. NOTHING is going to happen suddenly or overnight. New power plants and grid improvements will be built as demand requires, and not sooner. If every single new car were a plug-in or electric, and we all know that's not going to happen, it would still be at least a decade before the entire fleet of personally-owned vehicles were replaced.
Regarding motorcycles, although I am not the OP, I will toss it out here.
I bought a 2006 Kawasaki Ninja 250 last year specifically for commuting, after having moved further from my office. It gets around 60-70 mpg. Paid $3100 in Portland, Oregon. At time of sale it had around 3K miles on it. In this area it is really only practical for commuting during late spring and summer months, however.
Ok,
What's going on with the endless visit from Taipei tonight? Sitemeter is such a nice addition here, although somewhat off topic.
an abyone explain how inflation impacts falling home prices?
Better yet, if you leave your car plugged in when it's not in use, the grid supplier can cut you a lower kw rate for the permission to use that power sink to help keep the grid stable. The power companies are salivating at this idea since it's a network infrastructure that they'd love to have, but can't possibly afford to install. In this case it would install itself through the marketplace. It's so elegant a solution it brings the EE in me to tears.
Absolute power supply is easy, delivering stable power in a landscape of shifting load, that's bloody difficult. Right now they take the nighttime oversupply and run water up into reservoirs and do other silly tricks to store it for peak demand during the day. In the future, they can just run it into the batteries of the cars plugged into everyone's garage and it will be already distributed to even out the load locally.
rnato, sprung writes:
Not every PC runs Windows, my friend.
You better tell us how much your minor version upgrade costs? And what you gonna do if you want to put a HDTV tuner in your Mac, but do not want to get the only crappy model Apple sells, and want to get a better model (which also cost less)? Guess what, you're out of luck, your model is not supported, and will never be. What if you decide you need more powerful CPU or two more gigs of RAM? Buy a new Mac.
Each choice has its own benefits and drawbacks. There is no perfect choice.