Its all good news! MBIA loss only reported as $3 a share (the operating loss) instead of the actual $13 loss. As for Radian, they made an operating loss of $200+million, but its being reported as net income of $200mm once the write down of their own debt liabilities has been included. It is good news all the time here on Bizarro world. Anyone not buying is not smiling.
We probably could've got the stock to jump 25% if we posted a $8B loss... Man MBIA is stupid. They can't read today's market. The bigger the loss the bigger their rebound. What are these guys thinking....lol
Why shouldn't it jump. Who cares what the loss is. The Fed has their ass covered and we all know the rating agencies are NOT ALLOWED to drop their ratings on them out of fear of the consequences. So again, of course their price would jump. It has too. They are too pivotal to allow to fail it seems.
The explanation is more pedestrian, I think: It is almost always impossible to make money in the market simply by betting on what everybody already knows. (In the short term, anyway.) That is why I never touched any of these things, long or short.
Of course, I said the same when MBIA was at $30, so what do I know.
I think, at this point in time, the stock's price is more reflective of the bet that someone is going to end up with MBIA as it's pretty apparent that it can't survive in its current form.
The core business is worth something. The entire business not so much. But in an acquisition, what does one have to pay? That's the bet here I think. I don't think it will ever BK, but someone (perhaps already known to some) will step up to acquire it.
the entire market is trading on a bailout premium......pretty 'friggin obvious that reality left late last year.
It was obvious that was going to happen when crap stocks rallied late last year.
This consistent talk about fundamentals and "2nd half will be better" is nothing but the bailout premium being priced into the entire market.
How you can justify that and ignore a mountain of causes can only happen because the Fed is propping this up with daily injections disguised as "auctions".
Based on what? With Berkshire in the game, MBIA is not going to be writing any new muni policies soon, if ever. That leaves the current book of business, which I do believe is worth zero. However, it may take years for that to become indisputable...
Would love to short MBI into the ground, but can't.
That leaves the current book of business, which I do believe is worth zero.
No the current book of business is contracted and has cash flow, so it isn't worth nothing, even in run-off mode. Although I do agree that, going forward, why would anyone do business with them unless the price were a distinct advantage? Actually, being acquired would probably boost the probability of new business. About the only thing that will.
Is negative cash flow still cash flow? Technically, I guess it is.
Last I looked at their 10k, the cash flow from the insurance business was still pretty profitable. The impairment of assets (markdown of derivatives holdings) was the issue.
Re: ""The Company believes that the mark-to-market loss does not reflect material credit impairment.".... "
And last week, with AIG:
(sorry to repost, but the trend to re-value and distort, offer false and misleading data or to go beyond the need for accounting, FASB, SEC, FTC, reality.....
During the conference call, Steven Bensinger...noted that the $19.3 billion unrealized loss estimate in one of its pools of [CDOs] doesn't jibe with their analysis, which should suggest a loss of $1.2 billion to $2.4 billion...Naturally, the estimate to be ignored is the one based on accounting principles, as the company says that 'during the first quarter of 2008 AIG developed a new methodology to estimate more precisely its potential realized losses from this portfolio.' Naturally, this new methodology 'lowers' the 'potential realized losses.'For financial institutions, it seems lower housing valuations (as determined by a market) are enough to alter lines of credit, raise certain interest rates or change insurance and loan terms. But market-based analyses of their own portfolios? Obviously hogwash. "
Seeiosly, if these companies can modify debt and report it as what it is not and suggest that what is being reported, recorded is not what matters, then why can't all Americans do this, anyone involved in commerce?
Why would subprime be a problem, or oil, the dollar, inflation? Why does anything related to future value have the facade of accounting mythology associated with on-th-fly methodology? Why would any corporation in America, any bank, anyone not follow this trend to distort debt beyond Level 3 unobservable intangables -- to Level Fantasy, non-existant and it doesnt fuc---ng matter what any one does besides SIFMA, NAR and the mafia....total bullsh-t!
Berkshire has just done a "better" job of manipulating goodwill intangibles and relying on speculators to place a premium on the unobservable debt they have offshore, but in this case, where accounting has no frame of reference, where time and space are not bound as one in the fabric of reality, anything goes and we can thus imagine anything as being either real or possible and thus not be accountable for any dreams that turn out to be psychotic:
Psychosis is a generic psychiatric term for a mental state often described as involving a "loss of contact with reality." People suffering from it are said to be psychotic.
People experiencing psychosis may report hallucinations or delusional beliefs, and may exhibit personality changes and disorganized thinking. This may be accompanied by unusual or bizarre behaviour, as well as difficulty with social interaction and impairment in carrying out the activities of daily living.
No the current book of business is contracted and has cash flow, so it isn't worth nothing, even in run-off mode.
I think you might be ignoring a liability or two...
The intrinsic value of MBIA is almost certainly negative, in my opinion. I could be wrong, but we won't know until more of the chickens come home to roost. Which may take a while.
Tim --
Hey Nemo I'll tell you what I'll comment on your blog and turn all those zeroes around. Fascinating stuff really.
Well, my blog is more of a "vent when I have time" thing than a "build a community" thing. Intelligent comments are always welcome, of course. As are compliments.
I tend to think the problems at MBIA are somewhat overstated (they're probably not AAA, but they're in no danger of defaulting). That said, unless I'm misreading the accounts, there's some troubling stuff in there. Namely, the base case scenario gives losses of 16%-20% on subprime, depending on the specific holdings. The stress case gives losses of 18%-22%. That doesn't sound like much of a stress test to me, especially when you consider index implied losses. Even if you think the ABX is massively overstating likely losses, surely you have to encompass it in your stress test.
I guess the solvency of MBIA is old news. I suppose whether or not they keep their AAA rating doesn't matter any more.
Yet the stock is up 7%. Should give the conspiracy theorists something to chew on as they trade their accounts down to zero...
First.
And I can't find the $20 that I put on the counter. Maybe I'll find theirs with mine.
Charlie and Nemo:
Dagnabit.
Moin from Germany,
here is the MBIA presentation.
MBIA´s Fairytale
I recommend to flock to page 37 where they are discussing their RMBS exposure.....
MBIA had insured bonds backed by home equity lines of credit and closed-end second loans totaling $21 billion at the end of 2007
50 percent of this is via Countrywide and $ 5.2 billion via Rescap
Flashback quote October 2007
"The Company believes that the mark-to-market loss does not reflect material credit impairment.".... "
Time to borow another 3 billion at 14%. They may need to go to the Bank of Tony Soprano soon.
Moin again,
I would like to see Warburg Pincus "averaging down" from their $ 31 stock buy in Januaray.....
Its all good news! MBIA loss only reported as $3 a share (the operating loss) instead of the actual $13 loss. As for Radian, they made an operating loss of $200+million, but its being reported as net income of $200mm once the write down of their own debt liabilities has been included. It is good news all the time here on Bizarro world. Anyone not buying is not smiling.
We probably could've got the stock to jump 25% if we posted a $8B loss... Man MBIA is stupid. They can't read today's market. The bigger the loss the bigger their rebound. What are these guys thinking....lol
Why shouldn't it jump. Who cares what the loss is. The Fed has their ass covered and we all know the rating agencies are NOT ALLOWED to drop their ratings on them out of fear of the consequences. So again, of course their price would jump. It has too. They are too pivotal to allow to fail it seems.
stuart --
The explanation is more pedestrian, I think: It is almost always impossible to make money in the market simply by betting on what everybody already knows. (In the short term, anyway.) That is why I never touched any of these things, long or short.
Of course, I said the same when MBIA was at $30, so what do I know.
I think, at this point in time, the stock's price is more reflective of the bet that someone is going to end up with MBIA as it's pretty apparent that it can't survive in its current form.
The core business is worth something. The entire business not so much. But in an acquisition, what does one have to pay? That's the bet here I think. I don't think it will ever BK, but someone (perhaps already known to some) will step up to acquire it.
CR, Bloomberg is now sourcing your blog posts as news! That's great, congrats.
Moin ipodius
"The core business is worth something"
Why should anybody write new business with MBIA when you can buy it from Buffet ?
the entire market is trading on a bailout premium......pretty 'friggin obvious that reality left late last year.
It was obvious that was going to happen when crap stocks rallied late last year.
This consistent talk about fundamentals and "2nd half will be better" is nothing but the bailout premium being priced into the entire market.
How you can justify that and ignore a mountain of causes can only happen because the Fed is propping this up with daily injections disguised as "auctions".
Ciao
MS
ipodius --
The core business is worth something.
Based on what? With Berkshire in the game, MBIA is not going to be writing any new muni policies soon, if ever. That leaves the current book of business, which I do believe is worth zero. However, it may take years for that to become indisputable...
Would love to short MBI into the ground, but can't.
Short and pissed.
That leaves the current book of business, which I do believe is worth zero.
No the current book of business is contracted and has cash flow, so it isn't worth nothing, even in run-off mode. Although I do agree that, going forward, why would anyone do business with them unless the price were a distinct advantage? Actually, being acquired would probably boost the probability of new business. About the only thing that will.
I heard Moodys came out with a new rating for MBIA today...they are calling it "Fourple A"-- AAAA.
It is just one notch below Linens and Things which was recently raised to Fipple A, after they declared BK.
American ZIRP
heard Moodys came out with a new rating for MBIA today...they are calling it "Fourple A"--
Is this like being on double-secret probation?
"and has cash flow"
Is negative cash flow still cash flow? Technically, I guess it is.
yes, negative cash flow is still cash flow...
from the bears to the bulls.
I suggest a new post title:
MBIA Acknowledges Some of Their Losses by Posting $2.4 Billion Loss
Tripple A, it's not just for broken cars anymore.
Hey Nemo I'll tell you what I'll comment on your blog and turn all those zeroes around. Fascinating stuff really.
Re: The loss equated to $13.03 per share during the quarter ending March 31, compared with year-ago profits of $198.6 million, or $1.46 per share.
And still up 92 cents....retarded
Is negative cash flow still cash flow? Technically, I guess it is.
Last I looked at their 10k, the cash flow from the insurance business was still pretty profitable. The impairment of assets (markdown of derivatives holdings) was the issue.
Re: ""The Company believes that the mark-to-market loss does not reflect material credit impairment.".... "
And last week, with AIG:
(sorry to repost, but the trend to re-value and distort, offer false and misleading data or to go beyond the need for accounting, FASB, SEC, FTC, reality.....
During the conference call, Steven Bensinger...noted that the $19.3 billion unrealized loss estimate in one of its pools of [CDOs] doesn't jibe with their analysis, which should suggest a loss of $1.2 billion to $2.4 billion...Naturally, the estimate to be ignored is the one based on accounting principles, as the company says that 'during the first quarter of 2008 AIG developed a new methodology to estimate more precisely its potential realized losses from this portfolio.' Naturally, this new methodology 'lowers' the 'potential realized losses.'For financial institutions, it seems lower housing valuations (as determined by a market) are enough to alter lines of credit, raise certain interest rates or change insurance and loan terms. But market-based analyses of their own portfolios? Obviously hogwash. "
Seeiosly, if these companies can modify debt and report it as what it is not and suggest that what is being reported, recorded is not what matters, then why can't all Americans do this, anyone involved in commerce?
Why would subprime be a problem, or oil, the dollar, inflation? Why does anything related to future value have the facade of accounting mythology associated with on-th-fly methodology? Why would any corporation in America, any bank, anyone not follow this trend to distort debt beyond Level 3 unobservable intangables -- to Level Fantasy, non-existant and it doesnt fuc---ng matter what any one does besides SIFMA, NAR and the mafia....total bullsh-t!
Re: Berkshire
Berkshire has just done a "better" job of manipulating goodwill intangibles and relying on speculators to place a premium on the unobservable debt they have offshore, but in this case, where accounting has no frame of reference, where time and space are not bound as one in the fabric of reality, anything goes and we can thus imagine anything as being either real or possible and thus not be accountable for any dreams that turn out to be psychotic:
Psychosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Psychosis is a generic psychiatric term for a mental state often described as involving a "loss of contact with reality." People suffering from it are said to be psychotic.
People experiencing psychosis may report hallucinations or delusional beliefs, and may exhibit personality changes and disorganized thinking. This may be accompanied by unusual or bizarre behaviour, as well as difficulty with social interaction and impairment in carrying out the activities of daily living.
ipodius --
No the current book of business is contracted and has cash flow, so it isn't worth nothing, even in run-off mode.
I think you might be ignoring a liability or two...
The intrinsic value of MBIA is almost certainly negative, in my opinion. I could be wrong, but we won't know until more of the chickens come home to roost. Which may take a while.
Tim --
Hey Nemo I'll tell you what I'll comment on your blog and turn all those zeroes around. Fascinating stuff really.
Well, my blog is more of a "vent when I have time" thing than a "build a community" thing. Intelligent comments are always welcome, of course. As are compliments.
Thanks.
I tend to think the problems at MBIA are somewhat overstated (they're probably not AAA, but they're in no danger of defaulting). That said, unless I'm misreading the accounts, there's some troubling stuff in there. Namely, the base case scenario gives losses of 16%-20% on subprime, depending on the specific holdings. The stress case gives losses of 18%-22%. That doesn't sound like much of a stress test to me, especially when you consider index implied losses. Even if you think the ABX is massively overstating likely losses, surely you have to encompass it in your stress test.