USAToday: 'Foreclosures take an emotional toll'
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CalculatedRisk on Thu, 05/15/2008 - 10:33am (154 comments)
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first?
soo disturbing.
when we baught last year we were told 'just streatch a bit'
fortunatly we scaled back our expectations and havn't had our life suck.
but oi.
You know what also takes an emotional toll? Having your savings devalued so crooks can be bailed out. Watching shmucks with less money and less financial sense live it up in a big house for a few years while you're stuck in a cruddy apartment because you refuse to "play the game" - and THEN watching the same shmucks whine for a bail-out for their luxurious lifestyles at YOUR expense.
Another thing that takes an emotional toll: knowing that every government and private organization out there is doing everything they can to continue the Ponzi scheme while encouraging fraud and reckless behavior at your expense.
hmmm... and how many of these people had these disorders beforehand?
shudder that ad..
Never trust someone who has his own interests at heart with your money. Oh wait that means, anyone selling you a service is always out for himself no matter the altruistic message. Yup. If someone is a salesman, he sells.
Agent(salesman/facilitator), mortgage broker, car salesman, insurance salesman, financial adviser(salesman), broker.. Scratch the surface and you will find a salesman or someone in the kickback stream of the salesmen.
Once you open your eyes, you never look at people the same way...
I remember that commercial, it is sickening.
Realtors have to push emotional buttons, because logic ain' cutting it.
Expect the divorce rate to skyrocket.
How many troubled marriages were held together with equity-financing? New cars, fancy trips, diamond jewelry and stainless grills... hell, the stress alone will kill lots of healthy relationships.
Money may not buy happiness, but it sure saves a lot of grief.
This guy doesn't seem to show any shame
uh, as the USA Today article notes financial problems act as a trigger for other problems.
I'd like to see some stats (if anybody has them) on divorce rates during tough economic times ... I suspect this will act as a trigger for divorce (or worse), like for the poor guy in this shameful ad.
Best to all.
it is amazing how the mental illnesses come out of the woodwork when the free money disappears.
Hopefully someone will get a lawyer and start suing the entire REIC for "emotional duress"
GRRRRR! What's sad is watching Barney Frank and the fed spread the pain.
I say it's time for some tough love on speculators and imprudent borrowers AND lenders.
We can do this! ...What are you kidd'n me?
LOL.
The headline is inaccurate, it should say "Unsustainable borrowing takes an emotional toll on homeowners"
Very sad situation though.
The Century 21 video "The Debate", along with the Saturday Night Live skit "Don't Buy Stuff You Cannot Afford" are the poster children for the housing/credit mess:
Hulu - Saturday Night Live: Don't Buy Stuff
Angry Saver writes:
GRRRRR! What's sad is watching Barney Frank and the fed spread the pain.
I totally agree, let all the victims wallow in their own stupidty. I don't want to pay for the consequences of their stupidity.
The question is-do any of these cases deserve a bailout? No.
The elderly couple pulled money out of their homes-not a good idea when you are on a fixed income.
The uninsured RE Mrytle Beach guy should of provided himself medical insurance or had his wife could of work to provide it.
The divorce woman is a sad case but nothing can be done to prevent divorce. After 13 years is their no equity in the house to help her restart her life?
"I wonder if the mortgage brokers, securitizers, rating agencies, realtors, banks, investment banks, rating agencies and everyone else who raked in millions during the bubble ever feel even a shred of remorse or shame ..."
I wonder how many people look in the mirror and say, "I made a mistake"?
Do they feel shame?
NO! They feel put-upon because their business has collapsed.
arroyogrande
thanks, we needed the humor after that incredibly disturbing century21 ad from CR.
What's next, a bailout of the millions of baby boomers that forgot to save for retirement? Irresponsible idiots.
It has to stop NOW!
Just another victim in Greenspan's Body Count.
stuck_in-reverse It is certainly not the case that all salesmen are lying sacks of sh--. But it's a useful working assumption.
Does anybody remember the cat juggling scene from the movie "The Jerk"
Bernanke and Frank are just like Steve Martin in that movie.
I ran across this article on divorce stats in the NYT:
Reporting on Divorce
My favorite comment is on the discrepency between divorce numbers for men and women as one Mormon male divorce counts as several divorced women, skewing the numbers
In my family, both my grandfathers left their families during the Depression - my parents were each the oldest child and, therefore, responsible for helping support their families at age 13. If you don't think that changes a person - heck, I can halfway understand how the children of Holocaust survivors feel.
I don't find this ad either creepy or disgusting - I thinkn it is very effective. The message (IMO) is to empower women to intimidate their husbands in order to override his financial judgement and make an emotional decision instead. Note that the RE agent on the phone was also a women giving support to the wife against her husband.
An excellent tactic when prices had exceeded rational levels.
My first impression when I first saw this ad was that the husband was henpecked and the wife overbearing. Then I realized that was the relationship the ad was encouraging.
Very clever and effective if your goal is to sell overpriced houses.
Does anyone really expect any sense of shame?
Jim
Crisis operator: "Okay calm down. Pack up your things, leave the keys on the counter and walkaway."
Angry Saver writes:
What's next, a bailout of the millions of baby boomers that forgot to save for retirement? Irresponsible idiots.
We'll try.
One irresponsible person -- you laugh at them and walk away a smart, rich scrooge. Off to the poorhouse to dine on green bones and sunshine, granny.
Millions of irresponsible people -- they jump you, beat you to death and take your wallet for broadly-worded "crimes" they pin on you just like you tar them all with one brush. Just like you, they're probably right.
byzantine ruins,
You lost me.
A lot of people who were previously just considered alcoholics, addicts or bums are now being diagnosed as mentally ill.
They are called "dual diagnosis." They self-medicate mental illness with alcohol or drugs.
This is very important for society because you can't get social services benefits, starting with Social Security SSI or Medicaid, just for being a bum, addict or alcoholic. But once you are dually diagnosed, a whole world of govt.-paid services opens up to you.
The cost of these services is skyrocketing and most of it (except for elderly health care) falls on state/local govt. There is no easy way for govts. to escape these costs, either.
The real story is that housing downturn is reducing state/local govt. revenue at the same time outlays for social services are skyrocketing.
The dual diagnosis wave is concurrent with the housing bust, not necessarily caused by it. (But sometimes, economic issues cause people to get dually diagnosed to qualify for SSI and Medicaid.)
In this country, if you ever feel so severely depressed you might kill yourself, don't go into an emergency room. You might have to wait a day or more and then get rejected. Instead, lie down in the middle of a busy street naked and start flapping your arms and screaming.
You will get picked up by an EMS in minutes and escorted right into a hospital bed and the Medicaid system, without any wait time. You then will be dually diagnosed and get all kinds of free benefits.
I'm not kidding.
I'm going to have to fine myself for invoking Godwin's Rule - helping support your family during a Depression is nowhere near the outskirts of the Holocaust. Sorry.
stuck_in_reverse @ 3:01 pm
Did you ever wonder why a salesperson who is supposed to help you make money in the securities market or in the realestate market is called a "broker"?
The fed is SOOOOOO misguided they actually viewed soaring house prices as a positive development.
How can anyone have any faith in a monetary authority that views unaffordable housing as a solution? Ludicrous.
Their new solution? Bailouts and permanent unaffordability.
AHHHHAHHHHAHHHH!
Rich it is sad, but when I quit chuckling I thought "damn he is right"
Maybe the pain these people are suffering will teach a generation a bit of respect for prudent financial management. If not, then this sadness will simply be revisited in one way, shape or form, in some future financial disaster.
The elderly couple pulled money out of their homes-not a good idea when you are on a fixed income.
You pull money out of your home the same way you pull money out of your stocks - by selling. If that's what they had actually done they would probably be in good shape now with a cash cushion.
What they did was borrow money that they couldn't pay back. The money came from the bank, not the house.
Suecris,
Real estate blogs have a corollary to Godwin's Rule whereby as the thread length increases the probability that a price-rent ratio argument breaks out approaches 1.
As long as you haven't violated that, you're fine.
What kills me about this commercial are the high pressure sales tactics. The sales person on the phone waiting for the answer right away. As if they need the decision right now. No one uses high pressure tactics if they have your best interest at heart.
Calculated Risk writes:
uh, as the USA Today article notes financial problems act as a trigger for other problems.
I agree, CR. My psych program (and many others) ascribe to the diathesis-stress model of disorder acquisition, i.e., one has a genetic predisposition (diathesis) and the illness or disorder is triggered by stress in the environment. Even illnesses with a high genetic load, like schizophrenia, in identical twins, have "only" a 50% coincidence. Same genes, entirely different outcomes. My buffer against stress: Exercise, relax, spent time with loved ones, and read calculated risk.
Maybe we can get em other ways...
IHT: Seeking tax cheats, U.S. casts wider net abroad
"One American caught by the disclosure rules was Igor Olenicoff, the billionaire founder of Olen Properties, a real estate development company. Last December he pleaded guilty to failing to file the disclosures from 1998 to 2004, when he put around $200 million in accounts at overseas institutions, including UBS. He paid $52 million to resolve the issue.
Olenicoff was identified in an indictment of a former UBS banker Tuesday over violations of private banking and tax issues."
Seeking tax cheats, U.S. casts wider net abroad - The New York Times
Senate passed the housing bailout I hear.
The elderly couple pulled money out of their homes-not a good idea when you are on a fixed income.
I've said this before, the next crisis is going to be older Americans left without means due to reverse mortgages.
BTW, there are plenty of commercials on T.V. right now promoting this scam. By the same folks who brought us the crisis for which they are currently getting a bail out.
Now THAT is sickening.
Old but worth a read:
What was discussed during the closed session in Congress?
What was discussed at a closed session of the U.S. House of
Representatives? .
byzantine ruins,
You lost me.
What I mean is, of course we're going to bail them out. There are millions of them and this is a Republic.
We might run out of money or suffer a state collapse that prevents it, but we're basically 100% certain to spend every penny our grandchildren don't have to keep the boomers fat and happy til the necromancers can't keep them alive any more at 121. Seriously, I know someone who just went through nursing school, the educational framework is already in place.
The way to solve this is to have made different people 30 years ago. Now it is a foregone conclusion.
If you're under 40, sorry, other people screwed you, probably when you were about 4. If you're over 40, you're at fault so don't come whining to me about how (you boomers / the children you raised) are a bunch of thoughtless self-centered monsters. It will be just another ruinous expense along with PBGC, FMC, FNM, etc.
Cathy Quote:
"I wonder if the mortgage brokers, securitizers, rating agencies, realtors, banks, investment banks, rating agencies and everyone else who raked in millions during the bubble ever feel even a shred of remorse or shame ..."
Umm, really? Wow? As a Realtor and Real Estate Broker for the last 18 years I feel no shame whatsoever Cathy. In fact I had some pretty good years as recently as 2005 and 2006. 2007 and this year it is quite a bit thinner but I am holding my own. Those millions I raked (yeah right) in were saved and invested ever so wisely to enable my family and I to ride out this downturn I saw coming. It's quite a bit deeper than I expected. I knew something was amiss when model match comparables in track home neighborhoods we're increasing in large integers in short periods of time. That being said I can count many clients and/or potential clients I advised NOT to buy when everything and everyone told them they needed to because they would miss the boat. I can count on ONE FINGER the clients I pushed into a house they could not afford. Cathy, that finger is my middle finger and it's pointed at you. My wife has an amazing career apart from mine and we enjoy travel all over the world. We have a 30 year fixed mortgage and a decent amount of equity in our modest but nice home. I saw a lot of people get into the real estate and mortgage business during 2000-2006. Most are leaving or already gone. Good riddance. I even saw some very experienced people do some real stupid stuff and they are paying for it dearly today. It is sad to see so many people lose their homes. I would submit that most of them should have remained as renters. Shame on the banks for lending so much of their assets to people who had no prayer of paying it back. Shame on the unscrupulous mortgage and real estate people whose greed came back to bite them in the ass. Shame on the lack of prudence and poor financial management of so many people that thought they could make a quick buck. Shame on you for being so damn ignorant.
Cheers,
Pondering the Mess said: "You know what also takes an emotional toll? Having your savings devalued so crooks can be bailed out. Watching shmucks with less money and less financial sense live it up in a big house for a few years while you're stuck in a cruddy apartment because you refuse to "play the game" - and THEN watching the same shmucks whine for a bail-out for their luxurious lifestyles at YOUR expense."
Leaving aside the ugly turn Calculated Risk has made in the direction of "Maury"/"Oprah"/"Dr. Phil", you know what else takes an emotional toll?
Attempting to explain to people that if they try just a little to think independently they can use their own wits to make some money for themselves and their families, so they can have a better life just like all those "schmucks", only to have them call you a moron.
Sebastia
tj & the bear said: "Expect the divorce rate to skyrocket."
It's happening. I know several couples who are in that process for precisely that reason. It saddens me, but I understand.
Re: the ad. Consumer products (of which a 'home' is one) are sold through appeals to emotion as opposed to logic. Watch the ads for consumer products, e.g. cars) with that thought in mind. It becomes an interesting game to spot the appeals to emotion.
Really sad.
Though, those who got caught up deep in the speculative bubble are likely to have a higher proportion of people with potential mental instability to begin with (along with other ordinary people), compared with those who did not.
So, the causation can go both ways.
But, I can see that foreclosures and associated financial stresses can trigger their symptoms and/or tear families apart.
NC Jim -
I think you might be onto something. I have a feeling that spot ran during every other commercial break the last time "Beaches" was shown on Lifetime or Oxygen network.
Conversely, I doubt if it ever ran on ESPN.
This is why I'm dating a girl who dislikes paying money for anything - even a haircut.
" lie down in the middle of a busy street naked "
Last Friday coming home from work, a woman ran out of the SunTrust bank on the corner of York and Padonia north of the Baltimore beltway (a very middle-class area) and lay down on the street, convulsing, taking off her clothes and laying on passing cars. Luckily, she didn't leave an imprint on my ride.. she introduced herself to the Cadillac next to me while I gunned it. A paramedic was behind the Cadillac, so she was whisked to a psych ED.. but still.
i think i need mental floss again just for typing that..
being an alcholic (haven't had a drink in a little under 25 yrs) i can verify that the trigger issue is valid. although i was never foreclosed on when i was a drunk i did react to similar triggers. some of them were, being evicted, losing a job, death in the family, my birthday, christmas day, friday, saturday, lunchtime, having 5 bucks, stealing 5 bucks, waking up in the morning.
Pretty sure that the divorce rate drops during a recession and rises when prosperity returns. The reason is that it is more expensive to maintain two hoouseholds rather than one. In hard times families can't afford to split up. For that reason I have always encouraged people to view high divorce rates as a positive sign of the economic ability to make choices.
All I know is suicide decreases demand which is bad for the HBs.
Many disappointed gold diggers.
And now with their assets as eroded as equity, the profit and capacity for further digging is gone.
Maybe they stay married more instead of less.
Think of the bright side! The guy in the Ad gets to say "I told you so" to his creepy bitch wife as he's selling his belongings on ebay end drinking private label scotch out of the bottle.
Speaking of drinking. I better start loading up on private label myself. My account is getting battered.
Leaving aside the ugly turn Calculated Risk has made in the direction of "Maury"/"Oprah"/"Dr. Phil"
Honestly, the days of reading for education here are dead. This thread is just indicative of what now is here...those who don't read to be educated, but those who want their reality validated. Very sad. No wonder Barry over at BP is jumping down everyone's throats latetly to get the level back up.
Angry Saver writes:
What's next, a bailout of the millions of baby boomers that forgot to save for retirement? Irresponsible idiots.
What do you think Social Security is? A bailout for those that can't save and take care of themselves.
And I agree with Byzantine - anyone over 43 has no right to complain - they (Boomers) ARE the problem.
Hey Ipod,
I think Barry also says "DSYOFB" too.
Quit your crying.
Boy am I glad I read these comments. I've been so confused about who to blame for the mortgage crisis and it was right there in front of my face. Thanks byzantine, I knew the Boomers were no good. We just never should have let them breed.
Shit, should be "GSYOFB". grrrrr
Gamma writes:
And I agree with Byzantine - anyone over 43 has no right to complain - they (Boomers) ARE the problem.
Gamma | 05.15.08 - 4:16 pm |
Whew, I dodged that one. I don't turn 43 until July.
What do you think Social Security is? A bailout for those that can't save and take care of themselves.
WHAT??? Do you have any brain cells? That is the most asinine thing I've read on here in a long time.
Again, this is the first world. If you don't want to pay for these things then go and live in some third world country. You can save there and take care of yourself and leave the rest of the first world behind. What is wrong with you?
Even economically, SS is a good thing as an investment against the increased costs of supporting these people because we're going to do it anyhow whether gradually by tax, or later on when it's more expensive. You think that, in the US, we're going to let 70 year old women live on the streets? It isn't better to plan the costs of a safety net than pick up the tab ad hoc? You're just fu&*ed up man.
Quit your crying.
Post something relevant lunatic. How about that?
C'mon, ipodius...
One thread allocated to a little "emotional" ranting is OK once in a while. There is always an emotional toll to pay when economic times turn.
And yes, Byzantine, we have only just begun to bail.
We shall bail, bail, bail, and we shall sing while we bail. We shall sing a mighty bailing song, and the bailing shall not stop, yea, even though we bail for an hundred years.
We shall bail together, and there shall be no stopping of bailing until all that need bailment have been bailed, and on this you may all depend.
Allocate your wealth accordingly. I shall go long on both pails AND buckets.
Interesting trick with the nonverbal status cues: the hamster guy is initially submissive, bobbing and ducking and getting interrupted while the chick is in his face. When the disembodied real estate whore intervenes, they magically converge in status. This indicates that cheesy McMansions obviate Viagra as well as marriage counseling. I guess when they get evicted they'll need both.
three torches, somehow we've careened from some discussion on the broader implications of a downturn in emotional terms, to ranting about how we don't need SS because it's just for people who can't take care of themselves.
And somehow I'm being harsh???
Seb,
If you feel CR has taken a turn for the worse, then just buzz off. Nodoby's keeping you here but you.
The fate of individuals is irrelevant to the market, which is thankfully omniscient, and miraculously free of the inefficiency of sentiment. Humbug.
Sorry, ipod., I did not mean to imply that you were too harsh on the Soc. Secur. bashers. I meant only that there is still plenty of educational value here, even though some articles or threads seem to go to unusual places.
I agree with your larger view of social security...in a sense, it is one of the few guarantees that if you agree to play along, and take risks, and seek prosperity, that everyone can rise together. All will jump for the brass ring, some will seize it, and some will fall...those that fall are not permitted to drown, thus more line up to jump. Overall, we all come out ahead.
I still hope that the system can be competently administered, but I think most here do not wish to throw out the baby with the bathwater. (Even if the bathwater is incompetent and quite possibly corrupt.)
Nominations are officially open for "a mighty bailing song."
I nominate "When the Levee Breaks" by Zep.
Again, this is the first world. If you don't want to pay for these things then go and live in some third world country. You can save there and take care of yourself and leave the rest of the first world behind. What is wrong with you?
Some of us don't think government should be the entity that deals with this problem. Traditionally, charities and churches have been the ones to do so. Morally, that's the right way to do it because that system is not based on violent intervention by the state. It's not necessarily that we are heartless. It's just that we see the system will fail at some point, and supporting it is a pointless exercise.
Even economically, SS is a good thing as an investment against the increased costs of supporting these people because we're going to do it anyhow whether gradually by tax, or later on when it's more expensive. You think that, in the US, we're going to let 70 year old women live on the streets? It isn't better to plan the costs of a safety net than pick up the tab ad hoc? You're just fu&*ed up man.
So says the guy who sees no problem with fiat money. There's a good reason why the sum total of our debts is over 50 trillion dollars when all the future spending promises/guarantees are added up. Do you honestly think this system is sustainable? Really?
This country did just fine for 160 years before SS. When it fails once and for all, we'll figure it out again.
threetorches, that's totally the case and very well said. I keep saying that this is the first world and I don't mind paying for first world services. I don't even mind paying for some that "can't take care of themselves" because, you know, it's right that more fortunate people should. I mean, in the end we all die...and none of what you make is going with you.
Rich,
No, not SSI or SSDI w/dual diagnosis unless the claimant can show that he/she is disabled DESPITE the substance abuse or addiction. Or show that, if the substance abuse problem magically disappeared, the person would still meet SSA's definition of "disabled."
Congress changed the law re: disability due to substance abuse/addiction way back in the '90's & is not about to change it back.
What criteria a state or county chooses to apply for receipt of non-SSI/SSDI benefits is something else again.
It's not unusual for people w/PTSD to try to deal with their symptoms through alcohol or drugs. During the late '90's & into the early 21st C I represented a number of Vietnam vets whose bodies (& sometimes minds) were no longer able to deal w/the substances or experienced a crisis of one kind of another that made whatever substances they'd be using to mask or cope with their PTSD symptoms either no longer usable or just didn't work well enough. 90% of these clients had worked pretty steadily since they'd gotten out of whatever military branch they'd served in. Had often gone through several marriages.
The VA is actually not bad at dealing w/PTSD (it's had enough time & experience, that's for sure) but not every VAMC has good PTSD counseling, not every vet lives close ehough to a VA center to make it feasible to obtain counseling & not every vet trusts the VA enough to even ask for it. Also had one client who told me he'd never heard of PTSD until he was admitted to a VA hospital because of suicidal behavior & was diagnosed w/PTSD (& alcohol abuse) & treatment started.
Some of us don't think government should be the entity that deals with this problem. Traditionally, charities and churches have been the ones to do so.
Well, some of us, frankly, don't want "churches" overhead and baggage that goes with the charity. If I could make every last one of them pay normal taxes I would. And charities? Go and look up where the money actually goes. Not any better than government.
And I beleive it is ALL of our civic duty and responsibility to take care of those in our society that, no matter by what means, are in need. I said CIVIC. That means government. It is government's responsibility to take care of its citizenry, NOT some third party. Especially not in the religious realm.
Of course, if you think otherwise, I'm sure there are tons of countries that would accomocate you. Just don't look for any services while you're there. And watch out for those corrupt government officials because, you know, when you don't take care of the citizenry....
I disagree that it is sad. I see the forclosures as hopeful. It gives me hope to see people get escape their debt traps, via forclosure or any other means.
Of course, I'm working under the assumption that debt is bad, which if you're with the MSM, doesn't seem to be a safe assumption.
That`s what happens when you put your trust in women. LOL
I keep saying that this is the first world and I don't mind paying for first world services.
Social security is one thing, but I sure mind having to pay for irresponsible borrowing and lending.
What's worse, the bailout will only further the housing affordability crisis. A bailout is not a solution at all.
It's sort of apt that this thread started about the emotional toll of a down economy. With the nastiness, meaness, and self-centeredness of the number of posting on this thread, it's pretty plain that some are in vast need of some emotional coaching.
This isn't libertarian, it's just narrow and mean.
Traditionally Americans understood personal responsibility.
We really are a subprime nation.
A bailout is not a solution at all.
Angry, that I agree with totally! I said first world services you know like excellent health care, SS, social safety nets, education, job retraining, unemployment, my garbage being picked up, infrastructure, well-paid law enforcement so bribes aren't necessary etc.
But no bailouts. I would, however, support assisting people with relocation and housing if needed. But they do NOT get to keep the house.
Well, some of us, frankly, don't want "churches" overhead and baggage that goes with the charity.
As if churches and charities have more baggage than government. Please.
And just because churches and charities are somehow distasteful to you, you advocate forced acquisition by the state. Your right not to be offended by religion does not give you the right to reach into my pockets. Or support politicians who will.
And I beleive it is ALL of our civic duty and responsibility to take care of those in our society that, no matter by what means, are in need.
Your beliefs are irrelevant. I believe the state is evil and should be opposed at all costs because it overrides the rights of individual. I also believe it is my responsibility to care for those in need as a Christian, not because politicians wrote a law.
I have no problem taking shots at people who took huge risks and lost. They made their bed. Now, they can lay in it.
Next thing, we'll get criticized for making fun of this administration, because we shouldn't pick on dumb people.
This isn't libertarian, it's just narrow and mean.
Sorry ipod, you have no idea what you're talking about. I oppose social security (and the state in general) on moral grounds, not because I want what's mine.
"It is government's responsibility to
take care of its citizenry, NOT some third party."
What happens when everyone buys into the idea that "the government" is not a "third party" but "responsible" for their welfare?
I'd suggest you'd have problems that makes today's issues look piddling. Everyone looking to "government" and not themselves to meet their needs (however they define them) will simply grow a populace of groveling weaklings totally dependent on their "betters", the master bureaucrats.
We got into this problem, to no small extent, because legions of people did not look out for themselves with even a modicum of prudence. What do you think these same people will be like when they are TOLD the government exists to "take care" of them?
Ipodius is right regarding social security. It is the minimum we can do to support our elderly.
As for bailing out reckless homebuyers, I don't like it. But if there is going to be a bailout I'd rather bail homeowners rather than the banks or the homebuilders.
Of course, if you think otherwise, I'm sure there are tons of countries that would accomocate you. Just don't look for any services while you're there. And watch out for those corrupt government officials because, you know, when you don't take care of the citizenry....
Love it or leave it, eh? You're better than this.
And I beleive it is ALL of our civic duty and responsibility to take care of those in our society that, no matter by what means, are in need. I said CIVIC. That means government. It is government's responsibility to take care of its citizenry, NOT some third party. Especially not in the religious realm.
Although I mostly don't like you and find you rhetorically dishonest, I have to agree with you here. I saw you doing the Republican two-step about ten posts back (first make them come to you to be pronounced "good" enough, then impugne) so I wouldn't point at everyone else as the sole source of the site's decline.
The sort of "hack it or die" attitude some people have here is, I hope, some kind of psychological mechanism to compensate for their own shortcomings and anxieties. I try to overlook it along with the eye-popping level of goldbuggery.
However, I have a problem with the scope of the offerings and the blithe way in which they are tossed out with both hands without concerns for the budget side of things. We should offer the best we can within the scope of a sustainable outlay.
I likewise agree that it's the responisbility of the polis to care for its disadvantaged members, but at the same time, there's has to be a distinction between private means and what is available to all. There are an unlimited number of ways to funnel resources into a sick and dying old monkey in an attempt to keep it in a state nebulously defined as "life" and I think it helps to encourage the monkeys to go out and get rich.
I think we are good at providing the care to people. The challenge that lies before us is finding the ethnical technology that lets us make useful judgements that aren't a product of the ruthless illogic of Planet Randon nor from the Bleeding Heart Chorus And Doctor's Income Subsidy Club in determining who gets them and how much.
I oppose social security (and the state in general) on moral grounds
I'm sorry, but that sounds immoral to me. I guess I'll have to look up the definition of moral...letting old ladies die if they don't have the money they saved on their own.
"uh, as the USA Today article notes financial problems act as a trigger for other problems.
I'd like to see some stats (if anybody has them) on divorce rates during tough economic times ... I suspect this will act as a trigger for divorce (or worse), like for the poor guy in this shameful ad.
Best to all."
I lived the scenario in the ad circa 2005 through 2006 only I didn't cave in. Was threatened with divorce, et al. Then one day in early 2007, one of her colleagues at work who was previously urging my wife to buy in San Diego, came into work in tears. Their loan was going to reset in a few months on they could not afford it and were forced to be put the house on the market (chula vista). Then suddenly my wife began to see the light. A few months later she got a new boss who was as big a housing bear as I am and proceeded to lecture his subordinates about not buying a house in SD because he didn't want to deal with the aftermath in a couple of years. Now she really began to understand it.
Prior to that, no amount of graphs, articles, logic, could sway her. Nothing until it hit actually affected someone she knew.
Sebestian: Whatever, troll.
Isn't the Wright Model B calling you? Gotta keep thinking positive while insulting your betters, eh?
What is up with no Dataquick numbers this week? Only once since 2006 were they not out by the end of the 15th and never on a Friday.
threetorches said: "Nominations are officially open for "a mighty bailing song."
That's so easy!
Marche Slave, by Tchaikovsky.
Just as CR and Tanta knew this situation was inevitable, so, too, did the vast majority of their readers. I included the following language in my early spring 2007 letter to various folks on Capitol Hill, a letter in which I argued against a bailout of any kind, whether subprime, Alt-A, prime, or other:
What about, too, those Alt-A or prime buyers who used the option ARM or other exotic mortgage to buy a home which otherwise would have been too expensive? Should the federal government bail out those buyers, and therefore enable those buyers to maintain their sense of worth? Should those buyers have to face the stigma, the indignity, of having to move back down the housing ladder? After all, having to move down the housing ladder could devastate a homeowner psychologically. That person could lose not only his or her standing in the community, but friendships as well.
\tConsider the tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of those owners spiraling down into alcoholism, drug abuse, or other harmful behavior. After all, many buyers climb up the ladder in part so they can associate with those at the same social level. Perhaps buyers in this situation might be the most deserving of protection of all those peoples who stand to be hurt by toxic mortgages.
\tAnd we must not forget about those buyers of the mortgage-backed securities, such as collateralized debt obligations. If they stand to lose any money from their investment, should the taxpayers bail out those buyers? Again, the Constitution requires equal protection of the law. Some of those buyers are Middle Easterners, and of course we do need, dearly, their oil. Likewise as to the Chinese, and our need for the inexpensive consumer products upon which we have come to rely.
ipodius
My opinion often differs from yours, but you got this one right. If we are going to have civilization we have to have CIVIL government ... and we have to be civil to one another, even if that sometimes means helping individuals recover from their own mistakes.
I saw you doing the Republican two-step about ten posts back (first make them come to you to be pronounced "good" enough, then impugne)
No byzantine. There is nothing wrong with turning something said back around and challenging someone with it. That's educational discourse. For me as well. There's nothing dishonest about it, but even in real life if you let me run all over you I will. What the heck
And I have very specific ethical standards about things business and social. I raised hell when people screamed about taxes they pay on the one hand, but then noted the ways they cheat on the other. And now I just raised hell about those with (supposedly) more mean than others decrying spending tax money on helping them live with a bit of dignity in their old age if fortune didn't smile on them well.
And I have pretty consistent economic and buiness views. And there is nothing wrong with not suffering fools gladly in real life or virtually. Although in real life most people think I'm a lot of fun and interesting. And I love a challenging, intelligent debate based on some facts. The art is in the interpretation of those facts, after all.
"and we have to be civil to one another, even if that sometimes means helping individuals recover from their own mistakes."
Food stamps. Unemployment benefits. Not $500k house (or any denomination thereof) bailout.
"The question is-do any of these cases deserve a bailout? No. "
You know, it is possible to have compassion for people without electing to bail them out. Sometimes it seems like people here think that if they say "damn, that sucks" to a sad tale of woe, they are then obligated to vote for universal cram-downs or something.
rich - good comment on the dual diagnosis SSI/medicare scam.
Also, on a related point, I think Social Security Disability is the new Welfare. This one really bugs me, because I personally can't think of anything more shameful than scamming the disability system and taking real money out of the hands of the truly disabled.
I don't have time to read thru all the comments here, so pardon me if this has already been mentioned. I did Google the Donacas (suicide couple)and they had been borrowing against their 18 inherited acres since 1988. Very sad.
Food stamps. Unemployment benefits. Not $500k house (or any denomination thereof) bailout.
Agreed Elvis. Without the need to kowtow to some religious organization, or lessen one's dignity by appealing to charity and having them "review" you for worthiness.
Non judgemental government safety nets. Because in the end, it's actually an investment in civic order and general quality of life for all.
Three torches: "I agree with your larger view of social security...in a sense, it is one of the few guarantees that if you agree to play along, and take risks, and seek prosperity, that everyone can rise together. All will jump for the brass ring, some will seize it, and some will fall...those that fall are not permitted to drown, thus more line up to jump. Overall, we all come out ahead."
Nicely said!
and we have to be civil to one another, even if that sometimes means helping individuals recover from their own mistakes.
Ethan | 05.15.08 - 5:08 pm | #
No thinking person denies this, Ethan. It's how we do it that is subject to debate.
ipodius, I'm through with you. Your strawman about "letting old ladies die" makes it clear you're not worth debating on this subject. That reply is as lame as saying if you're against the Iraq War, you support Saddam Hussein.
BTW, I notice you still haven't answered my point on the sustainability of social security...
In very short:
1) Denial
2) Anger
3) Bargaining
4) Depression
5) Acceptance
You know which one we are approaching..
I am a renter and a saver.
Twice in the last ten years, I have been forced out of places I really liked by condo construction.
So I am thrilled at all the pain out there - right?
No way!
Doesn't matter if somebody offers me a McMansion for a buck, I ain't buyin one. The upkeep is ruinous - and if the spit-and-cardboard construction I have seen around here is any indication, they're gonna fall down soon anyway.
Some of the proposed "bailouts" seem fair and reasonable to me (the bank refis at 80% of the current value at a fixed rate, for example). Home prices ARE GONNA FALL - no matter what the Government does. Period.
The question is if the whole economy is gonna collapse and bring the whole world down with it.
Yeah, some people were conned into some pretty stupid decisions - and others got caught getting greedy. I have a bit more sympathy for the "little guy" who got fast-talked into a crazy mortgage because he/she didn't know any better than I do speculators - but even a lot of them were hard working folks putting their own sweat into "fixer-uppers" and just got caught when the music stopped - trying to chase the American Dream.
Some folks deserve no bailout at all - and would just use it to continue the scam anyway. Others - if you just give em a reasonable shot at keeping their heads above water - will work their asses off to stay in their homes and be good neighbors.
The nihilistic idea that we should just punish the hell out of everybody that lived a bit better for the last few years even if it brings our whole society down also is shortsighted and frankly stupid IMHO.
I still have my cheap rent and my cash; the opportunity may present itself for me to pick up a decent house fairly soon at a decent price. I am thankful for that (if it happens) - but it sure won't add to my satisfaction if someone else's pain paves the way for that.
BTW, I notice you still haven't answered my point on the sustainability of social security...
TCA, the question is not answerable because there is no point. We're GOING to support SS no matter what. It doesn't matter. It's sustainable because we'll just tax until it evens out. There is no possibility of ever, ever doing anything about this because no one is going to vote to. Get over it. I've consistently said this. There is no debate, suck it up and move on.
We're all going to fund it no matter what. The majority will NEVER tolerate this problem being cut. Arguing about this an exercise in futility. Move along here, nothing left to see. That's the reality.
Mr. Bail Out writes:
In very short:
1) Denial
2) Anger
3) Bargaining
4) Depression
5) Acceptance
You know which one we are approaching..
Especially since the Fed has been doing so much of #3 for the past few months...
Elvis
yeah ... unemployment benefits. I've wondered for a long time why we don't stimulate the economy by extending unemployment benefits. Believe me the unemmployed are going to spend whatever we give them.
LOVE IT! Generational warfare from the jealous youngins that aren't getting, "THEIRS". More "blame the other guy" syndrome ...
1) Denial
2) Anger
3) Bargaining
4) Depression
5) Acceptance
For the last year I have seen all but (5). 'Acceptance' has a hint of 'personal responsibility.' Very unpopular stuff.
--
"I wonder if the mortgage brokers, securitizers, rating agencies, realtors, banks, investment banks, rating agencies and everyone else who raked in millions during the bubble ever feel even a shred of remorse or shame ..."
Remorse and shame from Finacial Nazis and their troops?
You are simply ignorant of the nature of the economic govt in the US, lady. It is time to wise up.
Jas
I've wondered for a long time why we don't stimulate the economy by extending unemployment benefits.
Ethan, you and every decent economist out there. It's one of the best stimuli there are, and one of the most direct.
Uneasy, well said.
The Debate couple will be fine, as the husband noted the garage is huge. They can rent out the house and live in the garage, that line of thinking is why the husband changed his mind.
These people deserve it.
Someone who can not distinguish between fantasy and reality deserves the pain.
We're all going to fund it no matter what. The majority will NEVER tolerate this problem being cut. Arguing about this an exercise in futility. Move along here, nothing left to see. That's the reality.
I'll go on record as saying you're wrong. When the boomers retire, the system reboots...
Personally, I sort of like those 28 day loans The Fed makes to various financial institutions: Cash equivalent for bad loans.
Now, apparently after 28 days the financial instution pays back the loan and gets back from The Fed:
Comment: No ...otherwise what is the point of doing the loan?
Comment: Probably yes. Why? So that this transaction is known as "a loan" and not a bailout.
Any comments?
In this country, if you ever feel so severely depressed you might kill yourself, don't go into an emergency room. You might have to wait a day or more and then get rejected. Instead, lie down in the middle of a busy street naked and start flapping your arms and screaming.
You will get picked up by an EMS in minutes and escorted right into a hospital bed and the Medicaid system, without any wait time. You then will be dually diagnosed and get all kinds of free benefits.
I'm not kidding.
I fully believe that you aren't kidding, rich. However, you are very, very wrong. No one in their right mind would pretend to be suicidal in order to get services.
I suspect that you have never tried it. From personal experience, I can tell you that it's awful. Whisked into the Medicaid system? Are you daft? Have you ever tried to work through the maze of Social Security Disability? Do you know that the reject mental health claims almost universally? Some people manage to win an appeal, but it's expensive, long, and frustrating.
Now that I have a hospitalization for suicidal depression in my records. I can't get health insurance. I can't get a job without lying about why I left my last one. Did you know that pretty much all disability insurance policies have a rider that you can't collect benefits for more than two years, no matter how serious your problem is?
Did you know that severe depression often leads to divorce, and the disappearance of what little support structure people had? It's really lonely living in a house meant for two with just my cats for company.
Okay kids, settle down. Don't make me stop this car.
Hey lunatic - what's GSYOFB? "Go Screw Your Own F@$%ed Borrower?"
". . .Suzanne researched this"
There's actually someone over at the Housing Bubble Blog
who posts under the handle Suzanne Researched This.
At least in Vegas, gambling is down from last year. Maybe they would, but can't ...
Calculated Risk writes:
uh, as the USA Today article notes financial problems act as a trigger for other problems.
I'd like to see some stats (if anybody has them) on divorce rates during tough economic times ... I suspect this will act as a trigger for divorce (or worse), like for the poor guy in this shameful ad.
Best to all.
Calculated Risk
I heard that in the Great Depression, divorce rates acually were down by a lot.
O-Joe
I'll go on record as saying you're wrong. When the boomers retire, the system reboots...
TCA you are staring down the barrel of a Democratic congress for the next 8 to 10 years. Foggetabbouddit. And that demographic is the one that votes. There will be no change and it will all pass away as the boomers do. We'll just raise taxes (as is going to happen anyway) and that will be that. Worry about things that can be changed. This cannot.
OT, House Dems finally find a backbone.
"Delilah researched this. And she cuts hair too!"
"OT, House Dems finally find a backbone" LMAO!
They just didn't get contributions from the beneficiaries of the bill. Look at the FHA BAILOUT and how stiff of a backbone those slinkies have. Shameless.
Now B Frank - That guy can certainly find a lot of lobbyists that he can work with!
Worry about things that can be changed. This cannot.
ipodius | 05.15.08 - 5:41 pm | #
See ipodius, I'm not particularly worried about SS. I simply think it's the wrong way to go about taking care of the elderly. We can disagree without calling each other stupid.
I would gladly support SS if we withdraw all our troops from across the globe, cut the military budget by half (for starters), and start minding our own business. I'm much more concerned with the killing and destruction going on elsewhere in the world than the comparatively benign SS.
They just didn't get contributions from the beneficiaries of the bill. Look at the FHA BAILOUT and how stiff of a backbone those slinkies have. Shameless.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while. I'll give credit where it is due. This act of defiance is LONG overdue.
"I'll give credit where it is due"
Well, I hope dubya gets pissed and vetos the FHA bailout, to get even. THAT would be progress.
Well, I hope dubya gets pissed and vetos the FHA bailout, to get even. THAT would be progress.
barely | 05.15.08 - 5:57 pm | #
No doubt. The wonders of divided government! I had almost forgotten how it worked.
"OT, House Dems finally find a backbone"
Looks to me like the Democrats were only able to vote down war funding, because the Republicans abstained. Not sure I view this as backbone.
From the article:
"The bill, which would have allocated $162.5 billion to pay for the wars into 2009, was defeated by a vote of 148-141, with 146 Democrats voting against the measure and 132 representatives abstaining.
The vote came after Republicans withheld support for the funding measure to protest the tactics by the Democratic majority. Some 132 Republicans voted "present." That kills the war funding for now, but it will be revived next week in the Senate."
"Nominations are officially open for "a mighty bailing song.""
I'm thinking we need a sea chantey. Something by Burl Ives perhaps...
Cathy comments:
"I wonder if the mortgage brokers, securitizers, rating agencies, realtors, banks, investment banks, rating agencies and everyone else who raked in millions during the bubble ever feel even a shred of remorse or shame ..."
Anyone else notice that Cathy included "rating agencies" twice in her quote? Heh. Well, if anyone deserves to be blamed twice, it's the rating agencies.
And I am sympathetic to JT's defense of realtors above. While there were a fair number of bad-actor realtors out there in the last several years, out of all the parties mentioned in Cathy's quote, I'd say realtors were the least culpable.
TCA said: "I'll go on record as saying you're wrong. When the boomers retire, the system reboots..."
Yeah. That'll get the boomers to re-elect those congress-critters.
Barely,
Don't mess with W's war, it will definitely be vetoed now..They blew it by voting it down..Good for us prudent people...
Ipodius, SS would be even better if you didn't hand it to foreigners who come her sponsered by a family member obtain citizenship and get a check..Saw it happen with neighbor from Iran...
I'm glad you agree with the no bailout side! Most people can walk after saving 9 months before evicted, time to rent after that. I have 2 family members losing thier homes and have sympathy but they made thier own beds, now they need to lie in them..
I agree about services but will say this, I'm not stupid, I'm not smart but sure as the sun is coming up tomorrow, if they get George to bailout these greedy borrowers, thier will be one less taxpayer..LLC's are easy to create!
Cheers!
I say theme song should be U2
Stuck in a moment you can't get out of..
How about re-shooting the commercial with G. W. Bush and Nancy Pelosi.
GW: "That's not the point"
NP: "What is the point? What? I love that bailout plan, plus the education bill"
GW: "The budget deficit is growing"
NP: "You will be out of this office soon. What? Henry Paulson researched this"
HP: "This bill is special. You guys, like, can do this"
GW: "Ummm, OK"
NP: "Are you kidding? This is awesome"
GW: "Can I drill Alaska, too?"
Angry, that I agree with totally! I said first world services you know like excellent health care, SS, social safety nets, education, job retraining, unemployment, my garbage being picked up, infrastructure, well-paid law enforcement so bribes aren't necessary etc.
That last bit has less to do with the pay rate of law enforcement and more with the integrity of the law enforcement officer.
There are some things that can't be bought. They have to be bred.
There's a reason why some countries with vast natural resource wealth have a standard of living that barely rises to the level of third world.
I think it's called Social Capital.
As for Social Security and the Boomers. There is something that used to be known as a Generational Contract. A small part of that social capital. The idea that you leave enough for the next generation so they can make a go of it.
The generation of sex, drugs and rock-and-roll inherited the the largest demographic dividend in the history of mankind (very few dependents to support relative to the working population). That alone would have guaranteed fabulous amounts of wealth by almost any standard.
But that wasn't enough.
They also felt the need to sell down and mortgage up America's asset base to the tune of $600B dollars a year and straddle the next generation with ~11T dollars in debt.
And after deciding to out-source raising America's children to other countries to save costs they complain bitterly about the poor quality when they import them.
And the shock! The immigrants don't speak the Queen's English! My medical-aid can't understand me! And for some reason they care more about Cinco de Mayo than Thanksgiving!
And now don't you dare touch Social Security! It's okay if you push back the next generations retirement dates, but don't push back ours by even one second!
If anyone thinks manipulation is not happening thier crazy. From the fed, govt, sec, ratings agencies and even bloomberg. Check out a headline removed than replaced with the one on top...
Schwarzman Says Markets on the Mend, Sending Blackstone Higher May ... Schwarzman Says Markets on the Mend, Sending Blackstone Higher May 15 (Bloomberg) --
Blackstone Group LP Chief Executive Officer Stephen Schwarzman said ...
- 2008-05-15
Blackstone Says Markets May Be in Eye of Hurricane' (Update2) May ... Blackstone Says Markets May Be inEye of Hurricane' (Update2) May 15 (Bloomberg) --
Blackstone Group LP President Tony James said banks are mistaken if they ...
- 2008-05-15
I wonder if Tony is still there...
"Nominations are officially open for "a mighty bailing song."
Sorcerer's Apprentice by Dukas(?_)
I get this picture of BB as Mickey Mouse
To Ipodius:
No byzantine. There is nothing wrong with turning something said back around and challenging someone with it. That's educational discourse. For me as well. There's nothing dishonest about it, but even in real life if you let me run all over you I will. What the heck
To be clear, I meant some comment in yesterday's overnight thread about 10 CR posts ago, not 10 comments above. I brought it up as you are complaining about the deteriorating quality, etc.
That itself is a form of blackmail -- read manipulative social pressure if you want to be polite. You are implicitly threatening to remove yourself from the community because it sucks -- i.e., doesn't conform to your desires. Also, as mentioned, you used a cheap gambit yourself last night, which doesn't exactly establish you as a good actor.
And I have very specific ethical standards about things business and social.
So you're a cop, or maybe a lawyer. Perhaps a slumming babalawo?
Whatever you are, I hope you have merely started on the road to the development of good character, and not concluded your journey.
And there is nothing wrong with not suffering fools gladly in real life or virtually. Although in real life most people think I'm a lot of fun and interesting. And I love a challenging, intelligent debate based on some facts.
Also, long walks on the beach, sudoku and sleeping in late on Saturday with your bun? Gosh, you're dreamy, let's date.
Why do people think it's important and interesting to announce who is deserving of sympathy?
Is that bailing as it "bailing out banks," or bailing as in walking away from (bailing out from) an underwater property?
"Thank you calling the Mental Health hotline, now take the Red pill and deal with it. Have a good day." click.
This is some really funny pus. I hope CR puts up lots more emotionally-freighted home ownership stuff.
Hey, Suzanne researched this! An oldie but a goodie!
You help old people, the sick, and the crazy because it is the right thing to do. If someone who is old enough to post here does not understand that, they never will.
Yes, drunks will drink and we will always have the poor with us. A certain percentage will always find a way to game the system. So what. Deal with it.
Personally I see a generation coming of age that thinks relationships and people can be understood an experienced through the medium of digital communications. I don't think so.
Cower in your room and peck at your keyboard. Make sure the high dollar plastic weapon you bought is loaded (you think). Make sure you cloak your pontificating in twisted rationality in hopes of disquising your fear, both to yourself and the tin ear of your digital listener.
Beware. God has one twisted sense of humor.
I worked as a L.O. for a small mortgage brokerage owned by a real estate office in the near northwest suburbs of Chicago, I learned about the real estate business up close and personal.
It was not a pretty picture.
I quickly learned the businesses that require a large amount of disclosures signed by customers are businesses that were riddled with unscrupulous practices, necessitating the disclosures as an antidote.
Basically my experience was such that I ran for a job downtown (in the Loop) just so that I could work with people who were smart and honest, because the real estate business did not have much of both.
I would love to out the principal at the place I worked, but I would probably be sued. Let's just say this gonif, former Northside/MLS board president had several offices at one time, but was down to a single location when I was there. The only agents remaining were the old koots too old to start over anywhere else and whose business practices and ethics, or lack thereof, fit neatly in the boss's way of doing business. It was classic when the keeper of all the dark secrets, the accountant, took off with no notice to start his own business.
"Nominations are officially open for "a mighty bailing song."
Jimmy Crack Cor
Ok, don't know if anyone will read this, but there is a list of stressors out there, which have been shown to cause medical problems. Some of the stressors are seemingly positive, like inheriting a whole boat-load of money, but are actually stressful. Naturally death in the family and divorce and job loss are very high on the list.
Losing your home is about equal to a death in the family as a stressful event, causing medical problems.
Bless your heart, JT in CA, I appear to have hit a nerve about the size of an old-fashioned Texas gusher.
Im sure there were sellers, realtors, brokers, investors and financers who were entirely innocent in bringing about this whole housing debacle. Im also sure there were stupid, greedy buyers who deserve whatever torment theyve got coming.
But only someone in a drugged miasma, complete denial or studied ignorance can fail to notice that a lot of people guilty of nothing worse than bad timing, bad luck, or bad judgment are getting rode pretty rough right now. Some commenters have made it plenty clear that they dont feel any sympathy for the folk losing their homes, but maybe they could at least find some concern for the neighbors, communities, cities, school districts, and states that are being hung out to dry.
If compassion isnt in your nature, consider the problem from the standpoint of enlightened self-interest. What do you think is likely to happen to a society founded on institutions that extol equality, justice and fair play when a few tens of million of its citizens wake up to the fact that theyve been raped, pillaged and burned in a massive Wall Street ponzi scheme aided and abetted by governmental ideologues who just doesnt happen to believe in governing?
Good luck in your new career. Before you start going out on interviews, though, you might oughta consider getting some professional help for that little hostility problem of yours.
Well said, Cathy.
JT, you said yourself that there were were crooks running rampant; then got all hostile - as if Cathy's remarks were directed specifically at you. If you were as innocent and ethical as you claim, why the bird for Cathy? Why not simply brag about your own ethics, bemoan your colleagues lack thereof and heartily agree with her?
Dude, if you DON'T have a guilty conscience, you sure come off as a hostile crook trying to cover yourself in belated and transparently phony ethical standards. I myself have been attacked by liars trying to cover their own transgressions with an aggressive counterattack.
I read your comment three times - no reason at all to get so upset about Cathy's comment if you acted as you claimed - it wasn't directed at people who acted as you claimed - and didn't even come from this thread!
I'm no shrink, but I submit that you "doth protest" a bit too much.
@ CathyG (11:32PM):
I believe you sell something -- perhaps even real estate -- for a living. You are apparently well rehearsed at attempting to persuade others to do something that is not in their best interest (but likely is in yours). Anytime I hear someone say "enlightened self-interest" I grab my wallet. If what is being proposed was truly in my self interest, it wouldn't need the adjective 'enlightened'. "Enlightend" is just a faux-flattering appeal to emotion, like those discussed earlier in this comment thread. You're suggesting that I can keep my money (or at least try to) on the one hand, or I can be "enlightened" on the other hand by agreeing with you. It's a false choice and I refuse to accept the premise.
What's in my self-interest -- be it enlightened, financial, mental physical, or no jacket (adjective) required -- is for housing prices to fall [I see that they are; faster, please], and for my money not to be taken from me at the point of a gun and given to individuals who made screamingly poor decisions despite overwhelming indications not to (that applies to borrowers AND their lenders).
There is an "enlightened" case to be made for tough love too, but you're not worth the candle.
There's a logical explanation to the "We can do this" commercial.
You watched the edited, sanitized version for tv.
The wife really said to the consternated husband, "We can do this and Sue and I will give you as many blow jobs as you wish". So the husban agreed.
That's how it must have really happened. no?
Didn't Johnny Cash have a song in the '60s that went "How high's the water, Momma?...Five feet high and rising"
Anon E. Moose -
No. Actually, I totally suck at sales and have hated it since Girl Scout cookie days. The only skill I have in the art of persuasion is the use of an analytic approach. I teach statistics and critical thinking at a local university.
My comments had nothing to do with money. I'm genuinely concerned for the future of our country.
The reading I've done here and in a number of the blogs linked to this site has gotten me worried. Really smart people like Krugman, Warren, Thoma, and many others have pretty much convinced me that growing wealth and income inequality coupled with what may be a very nasty economic downturn, seasoned with long term stagnation and increased stress on the middle class can be very destabilizing to a democracy.
That's what I meant with the comment about enlightened self-interest. Even if I didn't care about foreclosures or suicides or house prices or devastated neighborhoods or who committed fraud and who didn't, just as a citizen of a country I deeply love, I'd be plenty worried about the larger ramifications of this debacle.