Linear vs not. Nominal vs real. I would look for a tangent curvilinear response rather than linear. I expect the response is barely linear within bounds guessing 4-8 months supply. On top of that inflation takes time to percolate through the economy unevenly and potentially masking the extremes of response. We've also not tested this end of any curve in modern times.
When I sold the last of my investment real estate properties in Apr 06 it was the cheapest sale in that market at $242k. The same market today is flooded with 3x as many listings with dozens $160k-$200k. 13 years inventory might have something to do with it. (1 sale so don't read to much into this last.)
Great graphs. Mohican (who runs langley financial planning) has been doing these scatter plots for a few months. The x intercept at 6 months is strikingly similar for this US data you post and what Mohican found for Vancouver.
Who knows, maybe this is a universal constant.
Interestingly, Vancouver, which is the very last bubble city in the world still holding out, has recently hit just about 6 months of inventory. MOM price changes have slowed, but we'll soon see if they turn negative!
CR, you can improve the correlation by looking at different moving averages of MOI and %change intervals. For Vancouver the optimum was found for half-over-half and 3-month moving average MOI to give a correlation coefficient of -0.91.
I ran some city specific numbers (Phoenix and San Diego) and the results varied, with no underlying "law" on the slope. In fact looking at Phoenix's data suggests the %change-MOI regression slope is shallower in a falling market compared to a rising market, meaning much higher MOI will not affect prices as much on the way down. In both cities the magic number appears to be 6 MOI to give negative half-over-half changes in price. This can be seen without much detailed analysis.
As for more complicated curve fits, I don't see much benefit in doing this except to optimize the current data to an arbitrary model. My guess is we know where the bottom is but are so cluster&^$%ed right now the path to be taken has a huge variance.
CR, you might want to lag those variables and re-run the analysis. I would hypothesize that price declines will lag months of supply by a quarter or so.
To various commenters: Stop worrying about the correlation. Why should we expect a linear relationship between these two variables?
The key thing to acknowledge is that there is a relationship of decreasing prices and months of supply. The data is very sparse out in the 8+ months of supply range, so we can't extrapolate the expected price declines very well. We could perhaps draw some 95% confidence intervals but they would be very large due to the lack of data.
However, we can confidently predict large declines in price. Great plot CR!
Thing that bothers me above months supply is that it is a moving target. The sales rate and inventory are taking wild swings and it will be hard to pin down when the months of supply actually get down to historical norms. Housing bottom will be more psychological than anything like most assets throughout history.
We may being seeing a rough analogy in the much faster acting oil futures market. The seemingly small decrease of months of supply caused contracts to soar. I personally was correct to think the response was insane vice houses and await confirmation in the oil markets. I suspect the holders of all those "in the money" futures are going to be surprised that there's no one to buy $130 oil for actual consumption.
Since VHB left us, mohican has been doing a bang up job with langley financial blog here in Vancouver B.C.. I'm really glad that he's getting a bit of well deserved recognition for his work. If you read his blog and see what's up with "the bubbliest city in N.A." as R. Shiiller called Vancouver back before he sold out, you will realize why I hang out here so much. I want to know what's coming down the pike at us before it gets here.
the existing homes Months of Supply hit 11.2 months, and will probably be over 12 months this summer. This suggests nominal price declines of over 5%
With all due respect, I would say "The existing data suggests months of supply does not predict price changes."
"Why should we expect a linear relationship between these two variables?"
We don't expect a linear relationship. This is merely a regression exercise, nothing more. In fact it is likely the case that negative price drops will behave differently than price rises because different effects start taking hold; months' inventory can go extremely high if its denominator, sales, is close to zero but this does not portend -100%+ price drops.
"I would hypothesize that price declines will lag months of supply by a quarter or so."
The strongest correlation is likely based on prolonged high MOI, not necessarily a lag. It's probably true that properties that sit for a few months with low sales will be softer on price and will mark the true state of the market. I'd bet CR's correlation would increase if 3 month moving average of MOI is used.
Kind of looks like a logarithmic drop off at 10-11 months. Once there are so many for sale signs out there, the market doesn't look like a bargain anymore.
I just got back from 160 mile trip to Hershey, PA. I was great! Minimal traffic. I have made this trip for the last 4 years and this was BY FAR the least traffic I've seen.
It made me have a new appreciation for high gas prices.
My model says that low point for home prices is far, far away, as defaults are still rising, employment is still falling, and home sales are still declining.
I saw a panel of RE experts on CNBC this weekend. One person has her own show on HGTV. She said that she is currently witnessing the turnaround of the RE market.
Direct quote "I'm seeing buyers! I'm seeing sellers! These mortgage companies just have to (snapped her fingers here) start making these mortgages again!"
She covered the entire mortgage and securitization process with a pair of finger snaps. Tanta carries on with talk of transactions and tranches and what we really need are more finger snaps.
jus me writes: @ Rob Dawg - I would look for a tangent curvilinear response
You're joking, right?
No joke. I'm still not up and about enough to curve fit but here's an exaggerated tangent function that is worth a look:
doom, same here. I visited a friend yesterday (about a 60 mile drive - all freeway). It usually takes me about 70 to 80 minutes, but there was no traffic yesterday, and I was there in about an hour. Very unusual for that time of day - and on a holiday!
Rob Dawg, I don't know that this relationship is linear - I expect it's not - I wish I had more data.
Of course more inventory will put pressure on prices. I think the most useful piece of information is that nominal prices are probably flat around 7 months of inventory - and typically rise at lower levels, and fall at higher levels. I have usually used 8 months as the rule of thumb for flat prices - just from experience - and that is about the same number.
Perhaps you could put together a chart plotting the number of times a poster calls "first" and his respective IQ. Maybe you can label it the dumbass quotient.
Seriously guys, can we stop with this annoying trend?
In the Chicago Sun-Times database of home sales, the number of home sales recorded in zip code 60074 (NW suburbs) in 2005 through April 21 was 325. In 2006, 504. This year? Just 89 (yes, eighty-nine).
As there seems to be a one to two month delay between closings and recordings, this probably includes closing dating back to November of 2007. But since the comparison is year-to-year, it is apples-to-apples, anyway.
Oh yes, should mention that the number of homes on the MLS in zip code 60074 is about 380 single-family, and about 775 townhome and condo. At 20-odd sales per month, that'll be about 40 months of supply.
Rob,CR -
I view the graph as two parts.
The left is a bullseye, the classic mark of "no correlation".
The right (7+ months) is a small set of outliers, not something to draw conclusions from.
Now, the right (7+ months) is all negative, which IS suggestive.
HOWEVER, they are all from the down leg of the cycle. When the RE cycle bottoms (someday), there will be a lot of inventory, right? Right?
Then prices will head up slowly.
So post-bottom, there will be data points with large inventory, and POSITIVE price changes.
So after the cycle completes, the right side of the graph will also look like a bullseye.
So no correlation.
So curve fitting really isn't appropriate, IMO.
CR, great post. Where do I find the data to construct an area-specific analysis of my own? Or, do you know of similar analyses on the San Francisco Bay Area? (I'm a stats person, new to real estate, trying to figure out when to buy)
I agree with jus me. The timing of the downtrend has only started...there is not enough time involved to make a correlation. Btw, my area is going up up and away.
jus me, I think you are assuming too much. It is quite possible that prices will continue to go down until the months of inventory figure has tightened noticeably (or that inventory will tighten noticeably before prices start going up, to avoid implying causation).
There are numerous ways to account for this from an anecdotal perspective. For example, people won't want to incur listing expenses when houses aren't selling, so the supply (denominator) may go down rapidly at the point when people are most discouraged. A small increase in a small number of sales (numerator) can change the months of inventory even more quickly.
I don't mind gay marriages but I don't like to see them be able to adopt. It's not a natural (normal) environment for the kids to grow up into; It'll be unfair to the child. Handicapped people should not be allowed to adopt either. Anything that is identified as not normal should not be able to adopt. The outliers to the left or right of the curve should not be allowed to adopt. Congrats to the gay people; you shouldn't be singled out for your genetic abnormality...you are still human...just a little unique. So...we male, female, and other - which bathroom should the "other" be allowed to use?
Wow, you mean something in economics is true? Next thing you know, you won't be able to get something for nothing. From the price of things, it looks like Bernanke's free lunch line is running low on bread. Still plenty of balogna left though.
hmm... I wonder whether there would be an easy, graphical way to examine if there would be a better R square (a tighter grouping) if you lagged one of the variables. After all, the inventory built up over several months, it makes sense that the price from several months ago influenced how much inventory is out there today.
I'm an engineer and I love stats. But I know when human psychology is a trumping wildcard variable that also is very reactive to other variables. Thus, I think JG's point is key: to model 'predictors' of months of inventory, you have to model homeseller behavior ...even better, model what most influences a homesellers behavior. The behavior in question are 1) taking unsold houses off the market out of frustration and returning them out of desperation; 2) Setting selling prices based on the outcome of their emotional/mental battle over what price "I deserve" vs. what price will sell my d#ng house. So what influences such emotional behavior? Well the employment and financial circumstances of homesellers is key, circa 2008. So JG writes "I like fundamental economic variables, and still am a fan of my three factor model -- defaults, employment, and resale home sales"
Add to this the semi-anecdotal evidence that banks are not filing foreclosing docs on all homeowners whose defaults warrant foreclosures, thus depressing REO listings. Such bank behavior is a result of internal battles over bank foreclosure staff shortages and uncertainty over a veto-proof foreclosure bailout from congress, amongst other things. Ignoring these variables is a slippery slope that leads to bizarre concepts like CPI that dont include items (food & energy) that inflate; and unemployment data that excludes people who dont have jobs. It makes my inner engineer cringe.
There are well established strategies for working with non-linear variables in regression analysis.
For example, you could run the regression with the natural log of "months supply" to see if that gives you a better fit. Most statistical software packages will offer logarithmic and other adjustments--you just have to click the right box.
Not meaning to cast any stones, but R^2 values of .54, .60, .66 don't strike me as very 'robust'; particularly to call the root of the equation based on them. Does the data picture clarify at all if you shift it - for example, to account for the lag in reporting prices at closing but inventory as current listings?
Great stuff CR - thanks.
We examined this is quite a bit of detail here: Blogger: Page not found
None of us are stats people but this stuff isn't rocket science.
How is the correlation if you exclude the greatest outliers (ie 9-10 months of supply points?)
giacutter, the correlation is actually a little worse without the highest month data points.
I wish I had more data!
Best Wishes
Way to take Langley's idea and hit out of the park. Interesting post.
"I believe that we are already in a recession.
It will be deeper and longer than what many think."
-Warren Buffet
May 25, 2008
You think with all the money this guy has that he would be able to afford a copy of the Wright B Model.
Excellent stuff! Nothing like a bit of quant stuff to beat the bulls with.
First? Or is Haloscan FUBAR?
Linear vs not. Nominal vs real. I would look for a tangent curvilinear response rather than linear. I expect the response is barely linear within bounds guessing 4-8 months supply. On top of that inflation takes time to percolate through the economy unevenly and potentially masking the extremes of response. We've also not tested this end of any curve in modern times.
When I sold the last of my investment real estate properties in Apr 06 it was the cheapest sale in that market at $242k. The same market today is flooded with 3x as many listings with dozens $160k-$200k. 13 years inventory might have something to do with it. (1 sale so don't read to much into this last.)
How does the slope of the line change if you remove the outliers?
Sorry, Haloscan didn't show the previous comment with the same question.
Great graphs. Mohican (who runs langley financial planning) has been doing these scatter plots for a few months. The x intercept at 6 months is strikingly similar for this US data you post and what Mohican found for Vancouver.
Who knows, maybe this is a universal constant.
Interestingly, Vancouver, which is the very last bubble city in the world still holding out, has recently hit just about 6 months of inventory. MOM price changes have slowed, but we'll soon see if they turn negative!
VHB
I don't believe it, first?
CR did you have to dust off the ole text books for these?
I've never seen data on this correlation.
Sure it seems obvious but the true number crunching is what separates the ______ from the ________. fill at will
Good stuff!
~n
CR, you can improve the correlation by looking at different moving averages of MOI and %change intervals. For Vancouver the optimum was found for half-over-half and 3-month moving average MOI to give a correlation coefficient of -0.91.
I ran some city specific numbers (Phoenix and San Diego) and the results varied, with no underlying "law" on the slope. In fact looking at Phoenix's data suggests the %change-MOI regression slope is shallower in a falling market compared to a rising market, meaning much higher MOI will not affect prices as much on the way down. In both cities the magic number appears to be 6 MOI to give negative half-over-half changes in price. This can be seen without much detailed analysis.
As for more complicated curve fits, I don't see much benefit in doing this except to optimize the current data to an arbitrary model. My guess is we know where the bottom is but are so cluster&^$%ed right now the path to be taken has a huge variance.
Awesome, CR. (We're not worthy!) Scatter graphs are my favorite, even if they show that something's happening that I didn't foresee.
CR, you might want to lag those variables and re-run the analysis. I would hypothesize that price declines will lag months of supply by a quarter or so.
To various commenters: Stop worrying about the correlation. Why should we expect a linear relationship between these two variables?
The key thing to acknowledge is that there is a relationship of decreasing prices and months of supply. The data is very sparse out in the 8+ months of supply range, so we can't extrapolate the expected price declines very well. We could perhaps draw some 95% confidence intervals but they would be very large due to the lack of data.
However, we can confidently predict large declines in price. Great plot CR!
Thing that bothers me above months supply is that it is a moving target. The sales rate and inventory are taking wild swings and it will be hard to pin down when the months of supply actually get down to historical norms. Housing bottom will be more psychological than anything like most assets throughout history.
I LIKE IT!
Numero Uno
OK....numero 60 then. Geez what's up with Haloscan?
Rob Dawg has a good point. What possible reason could there be for this relationship to be linear?
(Although as CR mentions in the poast, "nominal vs. real" does not matter, since the y axis is a percentage change.)
Still interesting, though. Can't wait to see how that 3.1 += 2 percent prediction pans out.
Wow, slippery fingers today. Meant "post" not "poast", and "3.1 +- 2 percent" not "3.1 += 2 percent".
We may being seeing a rough analogy in the much faster acting oil futures market. The seemingly small decrease of months of supply caused contracts to soar. I personally was correct to think the response was insane vice houses and await confirmation in the oil markets. I suspect the holders of all those "in the money" futures are going to be surprised that there's no one to buy $130 oil for actual consumption.
Since VHB left us, mohican has been doing a bang up job with langley financial blog here in Vancouver B.C.. I'm really glad that he's getting a bit of well deserved recognition for his work. If you read his blog and see what's up with "the bubbliest city in N.A." as R. Shiiller called Vancouver back before he sold out, you will realize why I hang out here so much. I want to know what's coming down the pike at us before it gets here.
Would be interesting to see what the same scatter plot with OFHEO data would look like.
How do I read it?
Interesting graphs, but rather inconclusive.
(and y intercept to 3 digits? Sheesh.)
the existing homes Months of Supply hit 11.2 months, and will probably be over 12 months this summer. This suggests nominal price declines of over 5%
With all due respect, I would say "The existing data suggests months of supply does not predict price changes."
@ Rob Dawg - I would look for a tangent curvilinear response
You're joking, right?
"Why should we expect a linear relationship between these two variables?"
We don't expect a linear relationship. This is merely a regression exercise, nothing more. In fact it is likely the case that negative price drops will behave differently than price rises because different effects start taking hold; months' inventory can go extremely high if its denominator, sales, is close to zero but this does not portend -100%+ price drops.
"I would hypothesize that price declines will lag months of supply by a quarter or so."
The strongest correlation is likely based on prolonged high MOI, not necessarily a lag. It's probably true that properties that sit for a few months with low sales will be softer on price and will mark the true state of the market. I'd bet CR's correlation would increase if 3 month moving average of MOI is used.
Kind of looks like a logarithmic drop off at 10-11 months. Once there are so many for sale signs out there, the market doesn't look like a bargain anymore.
OT- gas prices
I just got back from 160 mile trip to Hershey, PA. I was great! Minimal traffic. I have made this trip for the last 4 years and this was BY FAR the least traffic I've seen.
It made me have a new appreciation for high gas prices.
Oh yeah, lot's of "for sale" signs out there too.
Very nice work, CR. I have not seen this graphed before.
Now, the question becomes: what are the predictors of months of inventory?
Me, I like fundamental economic variables, and still am a fan of my three factor model -- defaults, employment, and resale home sales -- for predicting when San Diego resale home prices may trough (see the four graphs):
Free Inflection Point Forecasting Model | Piggington's Econo-Almanac | San Diego Housing Bubble News and Analysis
My model says that low point for home prices is far, far away, as defaults are still rising, employment is still falling, and home sales are still declining.
I saw a panel of RE experts on CNBC this weekend. One person has her own show on HGTV. She said that she is currently witnessing the turnaround of the RE market.
Direct quote "I'm seeing buyers! I'm seeing sellers! These mortgage companies just have to (snapped her fingers here) start making these mortgages again!"
She covered the entire mortgage and securitization process with a pair of finger snaps. Tanta carries on with talk of transactions and tranches and what we really need are more finger snaps.
jus me writes:
@ Rob Dawg - I would look for a tangent curvilinear response
You're joking, right?
No joke. I'm still not up and about enough to curve fit but here's an exaggerated tangent function that is worth a look:
http://bp3.blogger.com/_zqzPMzXNGso/SDtsS7RHUkI/AAAAAAAABow/BJeAfHlS2F0/s1600-h/MonthsPricesRealScatter.jpg
doom, same here. I visited a friend yesterday (about a 60 mile drive - all freeway). It usually takes me about 70 to 80 minutes, but there was no traffic yesterday, and I was there in about an hour. Very unusual for that time of day - and on a holiday!
Rob Dawg, I don't know that this relationship is linear - I expect it's not - I wish I had more data.
Of course more inventory will put pressure on prices. I think the most useful piece of information is that nominal prices are probably flat around 7 months of inventory - and typically rise at lower levels, and fall at higher levels. I have usually used 8 months as the rule of thumb for flat prices - just from experience - and that is about the same number.
Best to all.
I expect CR is going to get some new data points for the 15+ months of supply next summer.
CR,
Perhaps you could put together a chart plotting the number of times a poster calls "first" and his respective IQ. Maybe you can label it the dumbass quotient.
Seriously guys, can we stop with this annoying trend?
In the Chicago Sun-Times database of home sales, the number of home sales recorded in zip code 60074 (NW suburbs) in 2005 through April 21 was 325. In 2006, 504. This year? Just 89 (yes, eighty-nine).
As there seems to be a one to two month delay between closings and recordings, this probably includes closing dating back to November of 2007. But since the comparison is year-to-year, it is apples-to-apples, anyway.
Oh yes, should mention that the number of homes on the MLS in zip code 60074 is about 380 single-family, and about 775 townhome and condo. At 20-odd sales per month, that'll be about 40 months of supply.
Rob,CR -
I view the graph as two parts.
The left is a bullseye, the classic mark of "no correlation".
The right (7+ months) is a small set of outliers, not something to draw conclusions from.
Now, the right (7+ months) is all negative, which IS suggestive.
HOWEVER, they are all from the down leg of the cycle. When the RE cycle bottoms (someday), there will be a lot of inventory, right? Right?
Then prices will head up slowly.
So post-bottom, there will be data points with large inventory, and POSITIVE price changes.
So after the cycle completes, the right side of the graph will also look like a bullseye.
So no correlation.
So curve fitting really isn't appropriate, IMO.
Realty Times - Error finding Page
CR, great post. Where do I find the data to construct an area-specific analysis of my own? Or, do you know of similar analyses on the San Francisco Bay Area? (I'm a stats person, new to real estate, trying to figure out when to buy)
kudos, CR. I really enjoyed seeing the extra statistical analysis.
I agree with jus me. The timing of the downtrend has only started...there is not enough time involved to make a correlation. Btw, my area is going up up and away.
jus me, I think you are assuming too much. It is quite possible that prices will continue to go down until the months of inventory figure has tightened noticeably (or that inventory will tighten noticeably before prices start going up, to avoid implying causation).
There are numerous ways to account for this from an anecdotal perspective. For example, people won't want to incur listing expenses when houses aren't selling, so the supply (denominator) may go down rapidly at the point when people are most discouraged. A small increase in a small number of sales (numerator) can change the months of inventory even more quickly.
I don't mind gay marriages but I don't like to see them be able to adopt. It's not a natural (normal) environment for the kids to grow up into; It'll be unfair to the child. Handicapped people should not be allowed to adopt either. Anything that is identified as not normal should not be able to adopt. The outliers to the left or right of the curve should not be allowed to adopt. Congrats to the gay people; you shouldn't be singled out for your genetic abnormality...you are still human...just a little unique. So...we male, female, and other - which bathroom should the "other" be allowed to use?
I hope I don't offend most of the people on here.
zazing!!!
sincerely,
Wow, you mean something in economics is true? Next thing you know, you won't be able to get something for nothing. From the price of things, it looks like Bernanke's free lunch line is running low on bread. Still plenty of balogna left though.
hmm... I wonder whether there would be an easy, graphical way to examine if there would be a better R square (a tighter grouping) if you lagged one of the variables. After all, the inventory built up over several months, it makes sense that the price from several months ago influenced how much inventory is out there today.
I hope I don't offend most of the people on here.
You hope off-topic bigoted rants aren't offensive?
Hope again.
So, with this simple model, a little over half of the change in the C-S index is explained by months supply. What explains the rest?
I'm an engineer and I love stats. But I know when human psychology is a trumping wildcard variable that also is very reactive to other variables. Thus, I think JG's point is key: to model 'predictors' of months of inventory, you have to model homeseller behavior ...even better, model what most influences a homesellers behavior. The behavior in question are 1) taking unsold houses off the market out of frustration and returning them out of desperation; 2) Setting selling prices based on the outcome of their emotional/mental battle over what price "I deserve" vs. what price will sell my d#ng house. So what influences such emotional behavior? Well the employment and financial circumstances of homesellers is key, circa 2008. So JG writes "I like fundamental economic variables, and still am a fan of my three factor model -- defaults, employment, and resale home sales"
Add to this the semi-anecdotal evidence that banks are not filing foreclosing docs on all homeowners whose defaults warrant foreclosures, thus depressing REO listings. Such bank behavior is a result of internal battles over bank foreclosure staff shortages and uncertainty over a veto-proof foreclosure bailout from congress, amongst other things. Ignoring these variables is a slippery slope that leads to bizarre concepts like CPI that dont include items (food & energy) that inflate; and unemployment data that excludes people who dont have jobs. It makes my inner engineer cringe.
Great post.
There are well established strategies for working with non-linear variables in regression analysis.
For example, you could run the regression with the natural log of "months supply" to see if that gives you a better fit. Most statistical software packages will offer logarithmic and other adjustments--you just have to click the right box.
Basically the graph shows the rate ofchange of price increase/decrease using the ratio of MOI.
Simplistically, how many straws can the camel hold on his back before the load breaks his back?
And of course during the transition from seller's to buyer's market the market passes through the "balanced market".
Shouldn't price movements lag months of supply somewhat?
A great scatter-graph would be to look at Months of Supply versus price change 3 months later (or even 6 or 9 months later)
CR,
Not meaning to cast any stones, but R^2 values of .54, .60, .66 don't strike me as very 'robust'; particularly to call the root of the equation based on them. Does the data picture clarify at all if you shift it - for example, to account for the lag in reporting prices at closing but inventory as current listings?
DOH! Shameer beat me to it.
what frequency of sampling can you get for the months data, could add a time axis with animation.