How dare you criticize this family man ...this church-going man... this alabaster-marbled pillar of the community. He just needs another tax cut and he'll be fine.
The really sad part of all of this is: they probably do want to work something out with this guy - because affluent or not, he's expensive for the bank. It's not that the "rich" are any better about paying their bills than the rest of us or any more able, for that matter, but they do seem to get a free pass on complicated and costly financial entanglements.
When push came to shove he was able to come up with the money. Most American's effected by the collapse of sub-prime cannot.
He seems to have come up with the money by pushing and shoving those other Americans under the bus, as far as I can tell.
Did you catch the part about "tapping equity" in other properties? Wanna bet the guy is using a HELOC on some other property to stave off FC on this one? How long does anyone think that can go on?
I'm rich - I have over $1M in untapped lines of credit!
What I want to know is how someone who has a felony conviction in the last 4 years for defaulting on WAGES is able to get new debt. I wouldn't loan him 5 bucks for lunch, even with collateral.
I understand that you are joking, but just to make my point clear:
It is not I who decreed that the term "subprime" is a criticism or an insult. It is, after all, a standard industry term for people whose past bill-paying history isn't pretty.
It is the NYT who just can't bring itself to call this guy "subprime." It is the NYT who, apparently, thinks that would be an inappropriate term to apply to the "affluent." (The guy sounds insolvent to me, but I gather "affluence" in this context means something mystical, not something economic.)
But it's OK for the press to use the term "subprime" as a simple description of people who don't live in Greenwich.
So "subprime" is a class term. Which is probably why "We're All Subprime Now" pisses some people off so much.
Put this guy in a single-wide south of town, slash three zeros or so off the end of the numbers and re-read it. See if images of sleezy dead-beat Caddie-driving Welfare queens don't spontaneously emerge.
There is a lot more of this happening that what many people realize. There were some financial self-help books that even suggested this as a way of gaining wealth.
You can get wealthy if you earn enough money and never pay taxes or your employees wages. The idea is that employees don't have enough money to fight you (and often don't know where to go for help - and even when they do, the bureaucrats don't have the resources to go after all the cheaters) and the IRS doesn't have enough resources to go after everyone not paying their taxes.
To compound the problem from the 29 years ago until 2005, the bankruptcy code used to provide for the dischargeability of income taxes owed.
Tanta:
Perhaps "seemingly affluent" would be a better description. You can bet that the guy drives a fancy car and his house is in a very desirable neighborhood.
Perhaps "seemingly affluent" would be a better description. You can bet that the guy drives a fancy car and his house is in a very desirable neighborhood.
Well, sure. But if the reporter had recognized that this affluence is only apparent, then the headline would have to have been re-written.
But "Debt-Fueled 'Affluence' Unmasked As Just More Subprime" probably doesn't make the loyal Greenwich readers of the Times very happy.
I love the implication that People of Substance Who Deserve Respect suffer "business reversals," while the rest of us lose our jobs, a circumstance that deserves little sympathy.
A couple of days ago, in comments on a Tanta post about mortgage servicing, either Tanta or Maxed Out Mama said that servicers often see a pattern wherein the borrower falls behind more than 90 days, then comes up with a lump sum right before the gavel falls. Skwarek is one of those borrowers. Yep, I'll bet the servicer can spot his kind from a mile away.
Wanna bet the guy is using a HELOC on some other property to stave off FC on this one?
You won't find anyone willing to take the other side of that bet, Tanta.
They were careless people, Tom and Daisy they smashed up things and creatures and then retreated back into their money or their vast carelessness, or whatever it was that kept them together, and let other people clean up the mess they had made
F. Scott Fitzgerald
Not unusual except for his blatant disregard for the real rules of civilized behavior.
I have come across more than a few like him who are "living the good life." Same story, debt, leased vehicles, screwed up kids.
Right now I think for the affluent of America the wheels are coming off. It is just not visible in any instances. Once again we took our German car in for inspection and the "optional" service. Two years ago, 40 cars would have been stacked up waiting in the drop off lane. yesterday there was none.
What will be huge will be the redefinition in America of what is wealth and success. For many using the yardstick which they have measured so many others, the time is coming when they no longer will be the ones measuring. Instead they will become part of the measured and found wanting class.
I like how the foreclosure signs kept mysteriously disappearing. Probably the neighbours, not wanting that sort of thing bringing down the property values on the whole street.
the landlord from Greenwich is not affluent. he only rode the wave on his construction business and now is stuck when that business dried out. the interesting part are his tenants, though. they simply skipped the town, leaving the guy hanging dry. how can you compare the 'offense' of bouncing a check with the offense of not paying taxes for 29 years? i can imagine some disgruntled employees suing for wages, especially when one of his construction contracts soured, but those tenants are simply not available for comment. i think Mr Skwarek got taken advantage of by the smart reporter from NY with attention grabbing headline, but now will be ostrasized by his Greenwich neighbors because of that article.
Well, for God's sake just look at the picture of the house. You know the guy's a prole in "affluent" drag.
Sometimes I'm not sure if the breathy, faux-naif prose in these articles isn't meant as snark.
Just ask John Thygerson, who parked his Jeep sport utility vehicle in front of the empty house on Hettiefred Road on the flawless spring day last Saturday.
See? It's usually like this at the beginning of the article, and then the reportage gets a little more gritty as it progresses, as they slip something like this in:
The town, which typically has about half a dozen foreclosure notices each month, recorded 34 filings in January, according to RealtyTrac.
Just to remind you that things aren't always rosy here on a daily basis. I'm not so sure the Times isn't writing with a bit of a wink and a nod to the irony here.
"And us plebes outside of Greenwich"
Tanta - you need to get out more often. I live in Greenwich - there are plenty if plebes in Greenwich. While it certainly has more than its fair share of incredibly wealthy residents and opulent homes and neighborhoods, its a huge town and that is pretty diverse (and very diverse in many neighborhoods) and housing affordability is a very big issue for middle and lower income households - and thats the case for pretty much all of Fairfield and Westchester County - just like much of the US. Basically, all of these towns are extensions of NYC.
This guy Skwarek is nothing more than a speculator in the Greenwich market not a Greenwich resident.
You sound like the same upper middle class caucasian from the west coast who introduced my barber as "some arrogant rich dude" when he heard he was from Greenwich. My barber didn't know whether to smack the guy or go with it. He ended up popping him.
Well anonymous, I worked in Greenwhich as a youngun and lived in stamford. I was one of the plebes. Odd growing up on the poorer end of the scale in such a place.
I understand that there are a lot more plebes in the greenwhich pool than most people realize (probably more than the 'affluent' think too)but I encountered that snotty master of the universe you are the gum beneath my shoe attitude very very often. That is what people focus on when the word Greenwhich is mentioned in conversation.
Oddly enough the very old-time rich were some of the most gracious. Go figure.
Anonymous, don't go holding me responsible for the quasi-mystical terms in which this Times reporter describes Greenwich. I didn't write the thing.
That said, I think you protesteth too much:
This guy Skwarek is nothing more than a speculator in the Greenwich market not a Greenwich resident.
What does that mean? No "Greenwich residents" are speculators? I may have to come up with a No True Scotsman tag for some of these stories.
"Your" barber decked someone for calling him an "arrogant rich dude"? And you're copacetic with that? Does that mean I would be justified in punching your lights out for calling me a west coast upper middle class caucasian? It's not like I do such things, but I'm curious about whether you'd find it problematic or not.
You should read a post at the Boston Globe website about the Mass. towns with the highest percentages of foreclosures. I don't think you have time, but I'll add the URL anyway:
Needless to say, the list prominently features many of the poorest and most minority-filled towns in the state. The comments are full of grim satisfaction. Lots of, "I'm not surprised," and what can you really expect from illegal immigrants, tsk-tsk.
I personally know of Harvard and MIT professors with subprime mortgages with outrageous rates--people who bought condos and houses in nice Cambridge neighborhoods in the 1970s for pennies, who are now hocked up to their asses. While the overall foreclosure rates for the tony towns remains relatively small, they are skyrocketing as compared to historical norms.
But no one seems to want to admit, "our" kind of people get into trouble, too. And foreclosures will affect every town, to some degree.
Oddly enough the very old-time rich were some of the most gracious. Go figure.
Not surprising at all. They have nothing to prove, no where to move up to socially, and have no feelings of being out of their league anywhere. They're the ones that drive old cars, wear suits with fraying cuffs, and haven't bought a new household item since the 50's. You'd probably pass them in town, and think they're someone's gardener or slightly daft old uncle or aunt.
It's the proles that behave in the less appropriate ways because they are playing in a league they don't understand, and will always have feelings of inadequacy in. It only washes out in the second generation.
While the overall foreclosure rates for the tony towns remains relatively small, they are skyrocketing as compared to historical norms.
Markel, that list is sad because those are the most working-class towns in the metro Boston area. Just like the poorest and most working-class neighborhoods of Boston proper have the most foreclosures.
What I think this points to is a disparity of resources, more than anything else. Depending on your zip code I think banks are more likely to work with you if you need a short sale, or perhaps you have money to bring to the table to get out, or perhaps you have other resources to sell and bring to the table. So whereas the lower economic scale people have no choice and get FC'd rather quickly, the higher earners can either hang in longer or get out from under the debt.
Take a look at the more expensive neighborhoods and cities and towns and you'll see that the prices have not fallen all that much. So if you're over-leveraged you have a much better chance of selling and not having to bring much to the table. So my point is these problems exists across all classes, it's just masked above the middle.
ipodius, I agree. One thing Tanta has taught us, I think, is that subprime isn't necessarily a species; it's also a stage. The working poor run out of options first. The "affluent" may have more resources, or, more likely, other sources of debt they can tap to extend the pain.
I think Boston still leads the nation in the number of housing crash deniers. We didn't overbuild. We didn't get subprime loans. Our towns won't go down in value. It's different here.
On that last point--check out the town stats at the Warren Group website. Sales and median prices have crashed in supposedly crash-proof towns like Cambridge, Newton, Lexington, and so forth.
It's the residents of Greenwich I feel sorry for. To suddenly find they have such people in their midst. Shameful. Thank Gawd the NYT was there for them in this crisis.
For those interested in class in America, I highly recommend the book by Paul Fussell, English prof at Penn and all around sharp guy. He also wrote a fantastic introduction to poetic meter and verse. (Class; Poetic Meter and Poetic Form)
The discussion brings to mind the scene from Auntie Mame (I'm paraphrasing and prob misremembering a bit):
Patrick: Auntie Mame, who's that nice British lady over there?
Mame: She's not British, Patrick. She only speaks that way.
P: Why?
Mame: When you're from Scarsdale (Greenwich), darling, you have to do something.
I never thought of it as having any other meaning, in the social sense. After all, the affluent and especially the affluent wannabes are horrified at being "Sub-" anything.
Hi Tanta, I just read the WaPo article on current efforts to rein in FANNIE & FREDDIE. Here's a thought I can't let go of. How is it in taxpayers' interest that FREDDIE & FANNIE, who according to the story, are now buying 80% of housing loans, are allowed to buy non-recourse loans? This seems a lot worse than irresponsible & shameful, it seems criminal.
That's funny Melancholy Korean! And yes, the book by "Paul Fussell" is a classic, if a bit dated. It was written in the 80's but there is a lot to chew on there. I read it for a class, along with Veblen whom he references frequently. A more on-the-mark chapter than "Prole Drift" has never been written on the subject.
Markel, you are correct about those areas, but they are still (yet) on the low end of the decline scale. That will change as those people get shaken out eventually. You know, as this was all happening it was a frequent discussion with friends about where these people are getting all the money. I mean, I know what I make and I can't afford to live in any of those places...what were these people doing? Now we all know.
Tanta, no kidding you didnt write it - you posted it. Was this really a post worthy article? Seems like a hair on a knat's nut in the grand scheme of things. Wasnt there any other news yesterday?
There are a ton of speculators in the Greenwich market - and yes some live in Greenwich - and yes all have made a ton of money in the past decade. Like you and others I suspect that will change - but most of these speculators are no different than speculators anywhere. You seem to be implying folks in Greenwich are different.
As it relates to my barber, you seem to be pretty good at sarcasm except when its directed at you.
Feel free to punch my lights out - although I'm not sure I called you anything - dont tell me you think I "stereotyped" you.....
You're clearly a very bright person with many shrewd opinions - but you know much less about Greenwich CT than I do. Just trying to clarify and again I'm not sure why this article was "post worthy". You know you were simply taking a shot at Greenwich which I felt was unfair and its my hometown so I defended it. You would have done the same so get over it.
Thanks ipodius! I had the misfortune of spending my early twenties living in Stamford and working for that Swiss bank that's been in the news lately, (oh, why couldn't I have traipsed around Europe and "wasted" those years like my other friends--oh yeah, student loans) and Auntie Mame, especially the two girlfriends at the end of the movie, helped me understand the diff between city and "country" life, i.e. Fairfield County life.
Anonymous - you can put down your fondue fork, this wasn't an attack on Greenwich. The target was the NYT, and how they treated the subjects of their foreclosure story with kid gloves as they live in a town where the median income is triple the National average (and where NYT subscribership is ten-fold the National average).
I personally know of Harvard and MIT professors with subprime mortgages with outrageous rates--people who bought condos and houses in nice Cambridge neighborhoods in the 1970s for pennies, who are now hocked up to their asses.
I find that shocking; not because of the class thing but because MIT professors can presumably do math, and why would anyone who can presumably do math get themselves in a situation where they have a subprime mortgage?
Just trying to clarify and again I'm not sure why this article was "post worthy". You know you were simply taking a shot at Greenwich which I felt was unfair and its my hometown so I defended it. You would have done the same so get over it.
Has it occurred to you that my purpose was to ask the NYT why this was newsworthy?
Has it occurred to you possibly that my reference to the "proles" was, um, a touch ironic?
What "shot" am I taking at Greenwich, besides the suggestion that there can be subprime borrowers there, too? I'm not saying they're "different" except in the reporter's mind.
The Times reporter was the one who in essence dubbed everyone in Greenwich "affluent."
And no, I wouldn't have leapt to "defend" my hometown from an observation that it has subprime borrowers in it. That would be factually correct.
You need to 1) get the chip off your shoulder and 2) develop some reading skills. The internets are full of people bargin' into comment threads with danders up over a misunderstanding of an ironic statement. You needn't join them.
Oh Lord Joy, there is a huge difference between doing differential equations and figuring out the time value of money! Those involve different brain operations, trust me. One of my usual quips is that i can do a laplace transform, but i can't add a column of numbers correctly
Melancholy, make sure you always watch the classic version of that movie! I have a friend who, when he sees something off, always uses "Mother of Jefferson Davis!" ha! Here I am in agreement with our esteemed blog hosts, in that "subprime" is a euphemism for the "people of the fouler sort" that used to be listed by the Crown on English proclamations. After all, this doesn't apply to Lords, Ladies, Gentlemen, and Yeomen, does it?
I find that shocking; not because of the class thing but because MIT professors can presumably do math
Your statement is a class thing, though I believe you don't mean it to be. Doctors do math, too, and they are famous for their bad investments. So do Wall Street analysts and hedge fund managers, and all the guys at Goldman who created AAA securities out of toxic mortgages, as well as the investors who bought them.
Financial foolishness is confined to no particular class.
ipodius: Check out the Warren site. The drops are much more dramatic this time for tony towns.
Fondue fork? I said I live in Greenwich not the 70's.
I hate to tell you this anon, but fondue is again very, very hip. Evidently you really don't hang in the more chi-chi circles down there or in the city.
Geeez Tanta, what are you doing, responding to absurdities? You're way too good & there's way too little time.
So, what do you think, am I missing an obvious argument as to why FANNIE & FREDDIE should be allowed to buy mortgages of those who can walk away from homes any time they choose, or is it time for Congress to act to protect the interests of taxpayers over those of house-pushers?
Markel, will do! I'm sure they will take a bath this spring. I do have a vacation place on the cape in what is probably the most obscenely priced per square foot area, and can say that everything is about 25% below peak there. Stuff that would have flown for 425 now won't move at 349. I'm waiting to see who was swimming naked there, for sure, and will be watching...
I recall your comment some days ago about the meeting in which the go-getter sales guy had boasted of having increased gross revenues $45 million in the last quarter, and you had replied, "Well, my underwriters tried to stop you."
Doctors do math, too, and they are famous for their bad investments. So do Wall Street analysts and hedge fund managers, and all the guys at Goldman who created AAA securities out of toxic
mortgages, as well as the investors who bought them.
Hm. Maybe I'm confusing "mental acuity" with being risk adverse.
Ah, yes, all it takes is a little adversity to bring the undercurrent of class bias to the surface. So America isn't the one big happy family ranging from lower middle class to upper middle class, like we were taught years ago in high school.
More recently, my daughter came home from high school and asked me what I thought about a comment that one of her teachers had made to her class, to the effect that 'you kids are so smug about the decline in racial bigotry, well, I'll predict that it's just being replaced by class bias.' I think the guy may have been right. Meanwhile, that high school made the news today:
"Mother of Jefferson Davis"!!! Oh, I forgot about that whole scene. I've only seen the version with Rosalind Russell. There isn't a remake or something, is there?
Fussell calls snobbery a middle class vice. If I remember correctly, he goes on to say that Belgium, per capita, has the greatest number of snobs in Europe!
Tanta -
Man (or I mean wo-Man), for someone who lives on the left coast you spend a lot of time combing through the NYT. Over the past 3 decades of reading it I've found it to be entertaining at best and not particularly a great source for "news". Although, I'd probably say that about most papers other than the USA Today sports section.
I read the article in the paper this AM and laughed about its complete and utter irrelevance. Although I should tell you that I had to have someone read it to me because as you point out I need to "develop some reading skills" and the NYT uses a lot of big words.
Thanks for posting it again - your insight was invaluable and your commentary helped me understand what the article was really saying because as you know most of it sailed well over my head.
I really appreciate you pointing out that there are subprime borrowers in my hometown because its very hard to see through all this "affluence" that you and the NYT has made me aware of. Also, thanks for helping me realize that I was defending my hometown from an incredibly perceptive observation that it has subprime borrowers in it. My God man, who could have known. I thought I was defending it from an uninformed opinion in the NYT and on an internet blog regarding a stereotype that doesnt exist. Shame on me for not even knowing what I'm doing. Sometimes that massive chip on my shoulder makes my small mind kind of foggy.
Keep up the good work. I need to go to the fondue store now.
This is a question for CR/Tanta. Pls help!!
I am a physician looking to buy a house. Until February, I was an employee at a 2 physician practice getting a regular paycheck of 200k pa.
I became a full 50% partner back in Feb. Last week my bank refused to approve a mortgage on the reasoning that since I have become self-employed (the definition of self-employment: a person holding more than 25% share in a company that provides their main income), I will need to show 2 yrs of self employment income. They dont want to consider the fact that my last 2 yrs income was excess of 200k, and my potential income starting from 2008 will be at least 350k based on the profitability of the practice. This is ridiculous! Cant they design mortgage qualifying process that takes into consideration the difference between physicians/lawyers etc with stable incomes and other self-employed people with variable incomes?
What a great senior prank. I love the reaction of one mom to receiving a pair of condoms in the mail: visceral disgust. Condoms arouse positive associations for some people and negative associations for others. Maybe she should have been more discerning about selecting boyfriends.
I was born in a small town in the Midwest. Attended two big land-grant prairie universities. The furthest west I have ever actually lived was in Iowa, about 100 miles east of the Mississippi. I now live in the DC area.
But I am of course flattered to be accused of being a west coaster.
Cant they design mortgage qualifying process that takes into consideration the difference between physicians/lawyers etc with stable incomes and other self-employed people with variable incomes?
Nope. You gotta get lumped in with the proles. We do that on purpose just to teach you humility.
the_economist writes:
I know people like this. They never change. They go thru life screwing people over, with no conscious.
the_economist | 04.25.08 - 7:30 am | #
Yeah, me too. They are called sociopaths...I was once married to one...
Melancholy, there is a remake with Lucille Ball, not as good. Stick with the classics! On Fussell's book Class, yes, he basically skewers the middle class pretty hard in the book. I think Veblen does as well, so he follows that lead in a more updated way. It's the middles who are the most class-anxious as the upper middles and uppers are where everyone wants to be, the lowers know they aren't going anywhere and have their own parallel class system to which we're all drifting to anyhow (the number of big-screen LCD TV are surely prole drift), and the destitute and upper uppers are remarkably alike in many respects. It's a fun read!
Wisconsin: Un pays inconnu sauf le frommage de merde et les supper clubs ou on peut trouver la nouriture pour un chien. De plus il fait f*&#ing froid!
I heard "insult" and immediately reverted.
Where else can one dress up in a giant sausage costume to compete with others similarly attired to engage in a footrace around a major-league baseball field? Sadly, nowhere.
While you were, eating bratwurst and drinking 27oz draughts and slurring latin, I was taking an inventory in a 75 foot high grain silo in November. Climbing up the side, my fleece gloves would slip, then I'd take off the gloves and my hands would freeze, put them back on.
Now, I have a pass-card for the elevator, the covered parking and the bathroom. The world is my oyster.
Where else can one dress up in a giant sausage costume to compete with others similarly attired to engage in a footrace around a major-league baseball field? Sadly, nowhere.
You could run Bay to Breakers in San Francisco that way. Even being dressed is sometimes considered optional.
well, i can't claim we have sausage races, but we do have this:
Large numbers of participants walk the route behind the runners. Some participants dress in elaborate costumes or, though not technically allowed, wear nothing at all (except footwear), thus lending a party atmosphere to the event. One festive tradition is the tortilla toss, during which runners throw tortillas at one another to pass time (similar to balloon-batting at rock concerts). This was originated by Kinry Louie back in the early 90s. Years before the tortilla tossing started people used to throw their clothes and beach balls around up in the air as it was amusing to watch the flying clothes on television. As Kinry Louie was leaving for the race and knowing that he could not part with his clothes and didn't have a beach ball; he noticed that he had a number of bags of tortilla in the kitchen and thought that it would be cheaper to fly them like frisbees (because they were soft and would not hurt anyone) so he handed out bags of tortillas to his friends who were with him at the Bay to Breakers race and started flinging them.
Bay to Breakers is also the world's premiere event for "centipede racers." Competing teams in the centipede race must consist of a minimum of 13 runners tethered together, usually in some artistic fashion. An additional runner, a floater, usually the team captain, is allowed to run along untethered to pace the team or substitute for drop out runner. Despite the novelty, the centipede race is very competitive. The centipede winners used to have better finishing records than the women's division until just a decade ago.
I thought the article was just a puff piece saying we're all subprime now. See, even in the the most affluent neighborhoods they're having problems, just like the rest of America, just with a few zeros added on the end. A little Gatsby-esque maybe.
But I do wish she had mentioned the poker player's name.
lama- A phrase came to mind and I was wondering if there was some kind of accounting Level 3 torture,...you know, accounting that shocks the conscience.
sdtfs,
If you mean a mess, we use "cluster#@*%" just like everyone else. Believe it or not, there's not much unique slang in accounting. There's lots of complex technical language that usually refers to simple concepts.
Zbiggy is toast. It's one thing to be a puke. It's another thing to get outed as a puke in the NYT. You really think the guy at the servicer wants to take a chance on this guy? Sounds like he and his former tenants have much in common. Glad they were able to find eachother.
bacon dreamz did you see the comments on today's genworth thread about the TBK article on Bankstock you posted yesterday
i did. i think there are serious problems with that guy's data and methodology (too many to get into in the comments). i do like the fact that he claims UBS is the only IB that has analyzed the ABX at the bond level, and then forgets to mention that their loss estimates are significantly HIGHER than the RA's.
From the article: He considers this $12 billion figure to be reassuringly small, saying, "Pardon me for a moment while I'm non-hysterical."
The $12B-to-date figure seems far too low, too. My guess is we are now at Hayes Street Hill - didn't we already pass the $12B mark back around Fremont Street?
well his first problem is that he started with 2006 subprime originations of $600B, which comes from inside mortgage finance, then makes the assumption that ABX 06-1 and 06-2 are equivalent to 2006 vintage loans and applies the loss, delinquency, prepayments, etc from those pools to the $600B number.
I think you meant to write "The furthest west I have ever actually lived was in Iowa, about 100 miles west of the Mississippi."
h2 | 04.25.08 - 2:06 pm | #
Maybe she is referring to Orland Park - isn't that an Iowa Colony?
I think you meant to write "The furthest west I have ever actually lived was in Iowa, about 100 miles west of the Mississippi."
Oh, look! People who know where Iowa is! Thank god it's not all just coastal elites around here.
I have no idea what synapses were failing to fire when I typed that. I blame it on the shock induced by being considered an uppity west coast caucasian.
...taking an inventory in a 75 foot high grain silo in November. Climbing up the side, my fleece gloves would slip ...
Go easy, lama. Wouldn't do to start an arms race here. I'd might lose control and start in on that day cleaning out the 3-foot deep accumulation of ... (ahem) ... organic fertilizer ... out of a 50 x 150 old-style chicken coop some decades past. Wooooooheeee, but that ... 100% natural organic fertilizer ... does clean out the sinuses.
And dryfly can probably one-up that. No tell'in what he'd come back with.
When push came to shove he was able to come up with the money. Most American's effected by the collapse of sub-prime cannot.
Banker
How dare you criticize this family man ...this church-going man... this alabaster-marbled pillar of the community. He just needs another tax cut and he'll be fine.
Banker is back! And First!
The really sad part of all of this is: they probably do want to work something out with this guy - because affluent or not, he's expensive for the bank. It's not that the "rich" are any better about paying their bills than the rest of us or any more able, for that matter, but they do seem to get a free pass on complicated and costly financial entanglements.
Interesting study by Navigent analyzing 170 lawsuits related to foreclosures - found courtesy of the WSJ Law Blog:
http://s.wsj.net/media/NavSubprimeLit.pdf?mod=WSJBlog
I know people like this. They never change. They go thru life screwing people over, with no conscious.
When push came to shove he was able to come up with the money. Most American's effected by the collapse of sub-prime cannot.
He seems to have come up with the money by pushing and shoving those other Americans under the bus, as far as I can tell.
Did you catch the part about "tapping equity" in other properties? Wanna bet the guy is using a HELOC on some other property to stave off FC on this one? How long does anyone think that can go on?
"How long does anyone think that can go on?"
I'm rich - I have over $1M in untapped lines of credit!
What I want to know is how someone who has a felony conviction in the last 4 years for defaulting on WAGES is able to get new debt. I wouldn't loan him 5 bucks for lunch, even with collateral.
If anyone has problems opening the Navigent link they may fare better by opening it from the WSJ LawBlog article here:
Subprime-Crisis Lawsuits 2008: By the Numbers - Law Blog - WSJ
How dare you criticize this family man
I understand that you are joking, but just to make my point clear:
It is not I who decreed that the term "subprime" is a criticism or an insult. It is, after all, a standard industry term for people whose past bill-paying history isn't pretty.
It is the NYT who just can't bring itself to call this guy "subprime." It is the NYT who, apparently, thinks that would be an inappropriate term to apply to the "affluent." (The guy sounds insolvent to me, but I gather "affluence" in this context means something mystical, not something economic.)
But it's OK for the press to use the term "subprime" as a simple description of people who don't live in Greenwich.
So "subprime" is a class term. Which is probably why "We're All Subprime Now" pisses some people off so much.
Put this guy in a single-wide south of town, slash three zeros or so off the end of the numbers and re-read it. See if images of sleezy dead-beat Caddie-driving Welfare queens don't spontaneously emerge.
How long does anyone think this can go on?
Apparently, the entire market believes it can go on forever. Just keep ignoring losses and eventually things will work out. So buy, buy, buy.
"(The guy sounds insolvent to me, but I gather "affluence" in this context means something mystical, not something economic.)"
"Affluence" now means "too big to fail."
Well, that or the correct ZIP code.
29 years without paying taxes !
that's the story we need to hear!
Re: 29 years of paying taxes and not paying wages
There is a lot more of this happening that what many people realize. There were some financial self-help books that even suggested this as a way of gaining wealth.
You can get wealthy if you earn enough money and never pay taxes or your employees wages. The idea is that employees don't have enough money to fight you (and often don't know where to go for help - and even when they do, the bureaucrats don't have the resources to go after all the cheaters) and the IRS doesn't have enough resources to go after everyone not paying their taxes.
To compound the problem from the 29 years ago until 2005, the bankruptcy code used to provide for the dischargeability of income taxes owed.
Tanta:
Perhaps "seemingly affluent" would be a better description. You can bet that the guy drives a fancy car and his house is in a very desirable neighborhood.
Perhaps "seemingly affluent" would be a better description. You can bet that the guy drives a fancy car and his house is in a very desirable neighborhood.
Well, sure. But if the reporter had recognized that this affluence is only apparent, then the headline would have to have been re-written.
But "Debt-Fueled 'Affluence' Unmasked As Just More Subprime" probably doesn't make the loyal Greenwich readers of the Times very happy.
I'm a fan of the NYT [ducks as objects are thrown] but I agree they got the moral compass wrong on this one
I love the implication that People of Substance Who Deserve Respect suffer "business reversals," while the rest of us lose our jobs, a circumstance that deserves little sympathy.
A couple of days ago, in comments on a Tanta post about mortgage servicing, either Tanta or Maxed Out Mama said that servicers often see a pattern wherein the borrower falls behind more than 90 days, then comes up with a lump sum right before the gavel falls. Skwarek is one of those borrowers. Yep, I'll bet the servicer can spot his kind from a mile away.
Wanna bet the guy is using a HELOC on some other property to stave off FC on this one?
You won't find anyone willing to take the other side of that bet, Tanta.
jubprime.
They were careless people, Tom and Daisy they smashed up things and creatures and then retreated back into their money or their vast carelessness, or whatever it was that kept them together, and let other people clean up the mess they had made
F. Scott Fitzgerald
Not unusual except for his blatant disregard for the real rules of civilized behavior.
I have come across more than a few like him who are "living the good life." Same story, debt, leased vehicles, screwed up kids.
Right now I think for the affluent of America the wheels are coming off. It is just not visible in any instances. Once again we took our German car in for inspection and the "optional" service. Two years ago, 40 cars would have been stacked up waiting in the drop off lane. yesterday there was none.
What will be huge will be the redefinition in America of what is wealth and success. For many using the yardstick which they have measured so many others, the time is coming when they no longer will be the ones measuring. Instead they will become part of the measured and found wanting class.
I like how the foreclosure signs kept mysteriously disappearing. Probably the neighbours, not wanting that sort of thing bringing down the property values on the whole street.
Come to think of it, I've got an idea on how to save the housing market. Outlaw foreclosure signs. Streets everywhere will be saved.
Fitzgerald: The very rich are different from you and me.
Hemingway: Yes, they have more money.
the landlord from Greenwich is not affluent. he only rode the wave on his construction business and now is stuck when that business dried out. the interesting part are his tenants, though. they simply skipped the town, leaving the guy hanging dry. how can you compare the 'offense' of bouncing a check with the offense of not paying taxes for 29 years? i can imagine some disgruntled employees suing for wages, especially when one of his construction contracts soured, but those tenants are simply not available for comment. i think Mr Skwarek got taken advantage of by the smart reporter from NY with attention grabbing headline, but now will be ostrasized by his Greenwich neighbors because of that article.
Interesting method. The article describes a cretin without calling him one.
Well, for God's sake just look at the picture of the house. You know the guy's a prole in "affluent" drag.
Sometimes I'm not sure if the breathy, faux-naif prose in these articles isn't meant as snark.
Just ask John Thygerson, who parked his Jeep sport utility vehicle in front of the empty house on Hettiefred Road on the flawless spring day last Saturday.
See? It's usually like this at the beginning of the article, and then the reportage gets a little more gritty as it progresses, as they slip something like this in:
The town, which typically has about half a dozen foreclosure notices each month, recorded 34 filings in January, according to RealtyTrac.
Just to remind you that things aren't always rosy here on a daily basis. I'm not so sure the Times isn't writing with a bit of a wink and a nod to the irony here.
"And us plebes outside of Greenwich"
Tanta - you need to get out more often. I live in Greenwich - there are plenty if plebes in Greenwich. While it certainly has more than its fair share of incredibly wealthy residents and opulent homes and neighborhoods, its a huge town and that is pretty diverse (and very diverse in many neighborhoods) and housing affordability is a very big issue for middle and lower income households - and thats the case for pretty much all of Fairfield and Westchester County - just like much of the US. Basically, all of these towns are extensions of NYC.
This guy Skwarek is nothing more than a speculator in the Greenwich market not a Greenwich resident.
You sound like the same upper middle class caucasian from the west coast who introduced my barber as "some arrogant rich dude" when he heard he was from Greenwich. My barber didn't know whether to smack the guy or go with it. He ended up popping him.
Banker,
Nice to see you back.
Well anonymous, I worked in Greenwhich as a youngun and lived in stamford. I was one of the plebes. Odd growing up on the poorer end of the scale in such a place.
I understand that there are a lot more plebes in the greenwhich pool than most people realize (probably more than the 'affluent' think too)but I encountered that snotty master of the universe you are the gum beneath my shoe attitude very very often. That is what people focus on when the word Greenwhich is mentioned in conversation.
Oddly enough the very old-time rich were some of the most gracious. Go figure.
Totally OT:
Is it just me or do the square windows on the left side of the house look completely wrong? The stonework is nice though.
Anonymous, don't go holding me responsible for the quasi-mystical terms in which this Times reporter describes Greenwich. I didn't write the thing.
That said, I think you protesteth too much:
This guy Skwarek is nothing more than a speculator in the Greenwich market not a Greenwich resident.
What does that mean? No "Greenwich residents" are speculators? I may have to come up with a No True Scotsman tag for some of these stories.
"Your" barber decked someone for calling him an "arrogant rich dude"? And you're copacetic with that? Does that mean I would be justified in punching your lights out for calling me a west coast upper middle class caucasian? It's not like I do such things, but I'm curious about whether you'd find it problematic or not.
I now know that Tanta is a west coast upper middle class caucasian with a wrinkled reptilian snout. My mental portrait is complete!
Massachusetts foreclosures jumped 40% YOY.
You should read a post at the Boston Globe website about the Mass. towns with the highest percentages of foreclosures. I don't think you have time, but I'll add the URL anyway:
Foreclosures plague second-tier cities - Boston Real Estate - Boston.com
Needless to say, the list prominently features many of the poorest and most minority-filled towns in the state. The comments are full of grim satisfaction. Lots of, "I'm not surprised," and what can you really expect from illegal immigrants, tsk-tsk.
I personally know of Harvard and MIT professors with subprime mortgages with outrageous rates--people who bought condos and houses in nice Cambridge neighborhoods in the 1970s for pennies, who are now hocked up to their asses. While the overall foreclosure rates for the tony towns remains relatively small, they are skyrocketing as compared to historical norms.
But no one seems to want to admit, "our" kind of people get into trouble, too. And foreclosures will affect every town, to some degree.
Oddly enough the very old-time rich were some of the most gracious. Go figure.
Not surprising at all. They have nothing to prove, no where to move up to socially, and have no feelings of being out of their league anywhere. They're the ones that drive old cars, wear suits with fraying cuffs, and haven't bought a new household item since the 50's. You'd probably pass them in town, and think they're someone's gardener or slightly daft old uncle or aunt.
It's the proles that behave in the less appropriate ways because they are playing in a league they don't understand, and will always have feelings of inadequacy in. It only washes out in the second generation.
While the overall foreclosure rates for the tony towns remains relatively small, they are skyrocketing as compared to historical norms.
Markel, that list is sad because those are the most working-class towns in the metro Boston area. Just like the poorest and most working-class neighborhoods of Boston proper have the most foreclosures.
What I think this points to is a disparity of resources, more than anything else. Depending on your zip code I think banks are more likely to work with you if you need a short sale, or perhaps you have money to bring to the table to get out, or perhaps you have other resources to sell and bring to the table. So whereas the lower economic scale people have no choice and get FC'd rather quickly, the higher earners can either hang in longer or get out from under the debt.
Take a look at the more expensive neighborhoods and cities and towns and you'll see that the prices have not fallen all that much. So if you're over-leveraged you have a much better chance of selling and not having to bring much to the table. So my point is these problems exists across all classes, it's just masked above the middle.
Zbigniew Skwarek added, "whatta country!"
This whole "affluence" and "walking away" versus "sub-prime" thing has more than a slight hint of new orleans about it.
Remember what the difference was between people who were "looting" and thouse who had "found supplies".
ipodius, I agree. One thing Tanta has taught us, I think, is that subprime isn't necessarily a species; it's also a stage. The working poor run out of options first. The "affluent" may have more resources, or, more likely, other sources of debt they can tap to extend the pain.
I think Boston still leads the nation in the number of housing crash deniers. We didn't overbuild. We didn't get subprime loans. Our towns won't go down in value. It's different here.
On that last point--check out the town stats at the Warren Group website. Sales and median prices have crashed in supposedly crash-proof towns like Cambridge, Newton, Lexington, and so forth.
It's not different here.
It's the residents of Greenwich I feel sorry for. To suddenly find they have such people in their midst. Shameful. Thank Gawd the NYT was there for them in this crisis.
Great discussion. Wow. What a blog.
For those interested in class in America, I highly recommend the book by Paul Fussell, English prof at Penn and all around sharp guy. He also wrote a fantastic introduction to poetic meter and verse. (Class; Poetic Meter and Poetic Form)
The discussion brings to mind the scene from Auntie Mame (I'm paraphrasing and prob misremembering a bit):
Patrick: Auntie Mame, who's that nice British lady over there?
Mame: She's not British, Patrick. She only speaks that way.
P: Why?
Mame: When you're from Scarsdale (Greenwich), darling, you have to do something.
"So "subprime" is a class term."
I never thought of it as having any other meaning, in the social sense. After all, the affluent and especially the affluent wannabes are horrified at being "Sub-" anything.
Hi Tanta, I just read the WaPo article on current efforts to rein in FANNIE & FREDDIE. Here's a thought I can't let go of. How is it in taxpayers' interest that FREDDIE & FANNIE, who according to the story, are now buying 80% of housing loans, are allowed to buy non-recourse loans? This seems a lot worse than irresponsible & shameful, it seems criminal.
I'm guessing that the first assignment these days for a green NYT reporter is: "find someone in foreclosure and write a story about it". Yaw
That's funny Melancholy Korean! And yes, the book by "Paul Fussell" is a classic, if a bit dated. It was written in the 80's but there is a lot to chew on there. I read it for a class, along with Veblen whom he references frequently. A more on-the-mark chapter than "Prole Drift" has never been written on the subject.
Markel, you are correct about those areas, but they are still (yet) on the low end of the decline scale. That will change as those people get shaken out eventually. You know, as this was all happening it was a frequent discussion with friends about where these people are getting all the money. I mean, I know what I make and I can't afford to live in any of those places...what were these people doing? Now we all know.
Tanta, no kidding you didnt write it - you posted it. Was this really a post worthy article? Seems like a hair on a knat's nut in the grand scheme of things. Wasnt there any other news yesterday?
There are a ton of speculators in the Greenwich market - and yes some live in Greenwich - and yes all have made a ton of money in the past decade. Like you and others I suspect that will change - but most of these speculators are no different than speculators anywhere. You seem to be implying folks in Greenwich are different.
As it relates to my barber, you seem to be pretty good at sarcasm except when its directed at you.
Feel free to punch my lights out - although I'm not sure I called you anything - dont tell me you think I "stereotyped" you.....
You're clearly a very bright person with many shrewd opinions - but you know much less about Greenwich CT than I do. Just trying to clarify and again I'm not sure why this article was "post worthy". You know you were simply taking a shot at Greenwich which I felt was unfair and its my hometown so I defended it. You would have done the same so get over it.
Thanks ipodius! I had the misfortune of spending my early twenties living in Stamford and working for that Swiss bank that's been in the news lately, (oh, why couldn't I have traipsed around Europe and "wasted" those years like my other friends--oh yeah, student loans) and Auntie Mame, especially the two girlfriends at the end of the movie, helped me understand the diff between city and "country" life, i.e. Fairfield County life.
Slate discovers stated loans
http://www.slate.com/id/2189576/pagenum/all/#page_start
Anonymous - you can put down your fondue fork, this wasn't an attack on Greenwich. The target was the NYT, and how they treated the subjects of their foreclosure story with kid gloves as they live in a town where the median income is triple the National average (and where NYT subscribership is ten-fold the National average).
Is it just me or do the square windows on the left side of the house look completely wrong? The stonework is nice though
No, they look right. It is the 1980s palladian monstrosities on the right that look all wrong.
"Was this really a post worthy article?"
Since it is her (and CR's) blog, isn't that for her to decide?
I personally know of Harvard and MIT professors with subprime mortgages with outrageous rates--people who bought condos and houses in nice Cambridge neighborhoods in the 1970s for pennies, who are now hocked up to their asses.
I find that shocking; not because of the class thing but because MIT professors can presumably do math, and why would anyone who can presumably do math get themselves in a situation where they have a subprime mortgage?
Just trying to clarify and again I'm not sure why this article was "post worthy". You know you were simply taking a shot at Greenwich which I felt was unfair and its my hometown so I defended it. You would have done the same so get over it.
Has it occurred to you that my purpose was to ask the NYT why this was newsworthy?
Has it occurred to you possibly that my reference to the "proles" was, um, a touch ironic?
What "shot" am I taking at Greenwich, besides the suggestion that there can be subprime borrowers there, too? I'm not saying they're "different" except in the reporter's mind.
The Times reporter was the one who in essence dubbed everyone in Greenwich "affluent."
And no, I wouldn't have leapt to "defend" my hometown from an observation that it has subprime borrowers in it. That would be factually correct.
You need to 1) get the chip off your shoulder and 2) develop some reading skills. The internets are full of people bargin' into comment threads with danders up over a misunderstanding of an ironic statement. You needn't join them.
Shnaps -
Fondue fork? I said I live in Greenwich not the 70's.
Slate discovers stated loans
That bozo again?
Boy is Slate on top of things.
As long as Tanta doesn't disparage Tysons Corner, I'll have no beef with her.
because MIT professors can presumably do math
Oh Lord Joy, there is a huge difference between doing differential equations and figuring out the time value of money! Those involve different brain operations, trust me. One of my usual quips is that i can do a laplace transform, but i can't add a column of numbers correctly
Melancholy, make sure you always watch the classic version of that movie! I have a friend who, when he sees something off, always uses "Mother of Jefferson Davis!" ha! Here I am in agreement with our esteemed blog hosts, in that "subprime" is a euphemism for the "people of the fouler sort" that used to be listed by the Crown on English proclamations. After all, this doesn't apply to Lords, Ladies, Gentlemen, and Yeomen, does it?
Melancholy, keep posting, I like it.
Joy:
I find that shocking; not because of the class thing but because MIT professors can presumably do math
Your statement is a class thing, though I believe you don't mean it to be. Doctors do math, too, and they are famous for their bad investments. So do Wall Street analysts and hedge fund managers, and all the guys at Goldman who created AAA securities out of toxic mortgages, as well as the investors who bought them.
Financial foolishness is confined to no particular class.
ipodius: Check out the Warren site. The drops are much more dramatic this time for tony towns.
oooh a post on class.
Too bad we cant bring race into it.
"subprime", oh never mind.
regards
barr
Fondue fork? I said I live in Greenwich not the 70's.
I hate to tell you this anon, but fondue is again very, very hip. Evidently you really don't hang in the more chi-chi circles down there or in the city.
Geeez Tanta, what are you doing, responding to absurdities? You're way too good & there's way too little time.
So, what do you think, am I missing an obvious argument as to why FANNIE & FREDDIE should be allowed to buy mortgages of those who can walk away from homes any time they choose, or is it time for Congress to act to protect the interests of taxpayers over those of house-pushers?
Markel, will do! I'm sure they will take a bath this spring. I do have a vacation place on the cape in what is probably the most obscenely priced per square foot area, and can say that everything is about 25% below peak there. Stuff that would have flown for 425 now won't move at 349. I'm waiting to see who was swimming naked there, for sure, and will be watching...
...Boy is Slate on top of things.
No kidding. The article even mentions the notorious WAMU pool
WMALT 2007-0C1.
They want to work with people like me, he said.
I'll bet they do.
I recall your comment some days ago about the meeting in which the go-getter sales guy had boasted of having increased gross revenues $45 million in the last quarter, and you had replied, "Well, my underwriters tried to stop you."
Oddly enough the very old-time rich were some of the most gracious. Go figure.
rsj
Ditto!
New money = New attitude = Snob
More crummy work by the NYT. Quelle surprise!
Instead of the BUSINESS section, it should have been placed in the LIVING LARGE section.
The title should have read "Cracks in the Facade of Affluence."
Given Mr. Skwarek's apparent track record, one wonders if he left a financial train wreck behind in the old country.
You sound like the same upper middle class caucasian from the west coast
For some reason I thought Tanta lived in the Mid Atlantic region.
Doctors do math, too, and they are famous for their bad investments. So do Wall Street analysts and hedge fund managers, and all the guys at Goldman who created AAA securities out of toxic
mortgages, as well as the investors who bought them.
Hm. Maybe I'm confusing "mental acuity" with being risk adverse.
Ah, yes, all it takes is a little adversity to bring the undercurrent of class bias to the surface. So America isn't the one big happy family ranging from lower middle class to upper middle class, like we were taught years ago in high school.
More recently, my daughter came home from high school and asked me what I thought about a comment that one of her teachers had made to her class, to the effect that 'you kids are so smug about the decline in racial bigotry, well, I'll predict that it's just being replaced by class bias.' I think the guy may have been right. Meanwhile, that high school made the news today:
Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com
Well, no one from the DC area will say we don't have subprime borrowers here, that is for sure. Downtown lurks something far worse than subprime.
"Mother of Jefferson Davis"!!! Oh, I forgot about that whole scene. I've only seen the version with Rosalind Russell. There isn't a remake or something, is there?
Fussell calls snobbery a middle class vice. If I remember correctly, he goes on to say that Belgium, per capita, has the greatest number of snobs in Europe!
What a book.
Tanta -
Man (or I mean wo-Man), for someone who lives on the left coast you spend a lot of time combing through the NYT. Over the past 3 decades of reading it I've found it to be entertaining at best and not particularly a great source for "news". Although, I'd probably say that about most papers other than the USA Today sports section.
I read the article in the paper this AM and laughed about its complete and utter irrelevance. Although I should tell you that I had to have someone read it to me because as you point out I need to "develop some reading skills" and the NYT uses a lot of big words.
Thanks for posting it again - your insight was invaluable and your commentary helped me understand what the article was really saying because as you know most of it sailed well over my head.
I really appreciate you pointing out that there are subprime borrowers in my hometown because its very hard to see through all this "affluence" that you and the NYT has made me aware of. Also, thanks for helping me realize that I was defending my hometown from an incredibly perceptive observation that it has subprime borrowers in it. My God man, who could have known. I thought I was defending it from an uninformed opinion in the NYT and on an internet blog regarding a stereotype that doesnt exist. Shame on me for not even knowing what I'm doing. Sometimes that massive chip on my shoulder makes my small mind kind of foggy.
Keep up the good work. I need to go to the fondue store now.
Meanwhile, that high school made the news today:
Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com video...rank.letter.kgw
Best. Senior. Prank. Ever!
This is a question for CR/Tanta. Pls help!!
I am a physician looking to buy a house. Until February, I was an employee at a 2 physician practice getting a regular paycheck of 200k pa.
I became a full 50% partner back in Feb. Last week my bank refused to approve a mortgage on the reasoning that since I have become self-employed (the definition of self-employment: a person holding more than 25% share in a company that provides their main income), I will need to show 2 yrs of self employment income. They dont want to consider the fact that my last 2 yrs income was excess of 200k, and my potential income starting from 2008 will be at least 350k based on the profitability of the practice. This is ridiculous! Cant they design mortgage qualifying process that takes into consideration the difference between physicians/lawyers etc with stable incomes and other self-employed people with variable incomes?
Mike2 - Tanta lives in the mid-Atlantic region now, but she grew up in Haddonfield, IL
While we're at it - she's not caucasian; she's reptilian.
What a great senior prank. I love the reaction of one mom to receiving a pair of condoms in the mail: visceral disgust. Condoms arouse positive associations for some people and negative associations for others. Maybe she should have been more discerning about selecting boyfriends.
I was born in a small town in the Midwest. Attended two big land-grant prairie universities. The furthest west I have ever actually lived was in Iowa, about 100 miles east of the Mississippi. I now live in the DC area.
But I am of course flattered to be accused of being a west coaster.
Cant they design mortgage qualifying process that takes into consideration the difference between physicians/lawyers etc with stable incomes and other self-employed people with variable incomes?
Nope. You gotta get lumped in with the proles. We do that on purpose just to teach you humility.
Tanta lives in the mid-Atlantic region now, but she grew up in Haddonfield, IL
OH SURE. Come over here and say that to my face, whydoncha?
I'll pop you just like that herioc Barber of Greenwich.
the_economist writes:
I know people like this. They never change. They go thru life screwing people over, with no conscious.
the_economist | 04.25.08 - 7:30 am | #
Yeah, me too. They are called sociopaths...I was once married to one...
Tanta lives in the mid-Atlantic region now, but she grew up in Haddonfield, IL
sails over his head
As long as Tanta doesn't disparage Tysons Corner, I'll have no beef with her.
Tysons Corner: a more wretched hive of bland malls and crowded parking lots--plus assorted scum and villainy--I have never seen. Dixit anathema sit!
sails over his head
Google it.
I knew it! I knew it! You are classically educated, Tanta. Your writing style betrays you.
You are classically educated, Tanta.
That allusion to Star Wars really got to you, didn't it?
Well, affluent rhymes with effluent.
Melancholy, there is a remake with Lucille Ball, not as good. Stick with the classics! On Fussell's book Class, yes, he basically skewers the middle class pretty hard in the book. I think Veblen does as well, so he follows that lead in a more updated way. It's the middles who are the most class-anxious as the upper middles and uppers are where everyone wants to be, the lowers know they aren't going anywhere and have their own parallel class system to which we're all drifting to anyhow (the number of big-screen LCD TV are surely prole drift), and the destitute and upper uppers are remarkably alike in many respects. It's a fun read!
Well, affluent rhymes with effluent.
Only if you're some cracker Southerner, it does.
Is there anyone else left to be insulted? I do like to be thorough.
Google it.
god you guys are old.
Is there anyone else left to be insulted? I do like to be thorough.
I think you missed the Minnesota/Wisconsin demographic.
Check out this interview with Robert Schiller. The interviewers are clueless (one thinks Schiller is proposing option ARMs as a solution).
Yahoo!
oh Tanta.
οὐκ ἔχων ὅ τι χρησαίμην σοι
all right boys and girls, it's been fun, but I gotta get outta here. Apologies if the link is too far afield, but I'm going to see this at MOMA today:
Design Observer
ciao tutti.
Tanta-
Well, I don't think you really insulted the west coast, but we're hardly awake now. We quake under your gaze. Or maybe that was just a temblor.
So I guess your motto is Oderint dum metuant
Wisconsin: Un pays inconnu sauf le frommage de merde et les supper clubs ou on peut trouver la nouriture pour un chien. De plus il fait f*&#ing froid!
I heard "insult" and immediately reverted.
They want to work with people like me, he said.
They want to work with a convicted felon who is also a BUILDER?
Dream on.
This is one of my favorite comments threads ever.
So I guess your motto is Oderint dum metuant
No, my motto is numen, lumen.* The motto of my alma mater, the University of Wisconsin at Madison.
Ahem. Lama.
*This may be translated "divine light" or "Divine Lite," depending on your point of view.
Stop being sarcastic, Tanta, it isn't in your nature.
lama, s'il vous plaît, Vous n'embrasserez mon derrière.
PS I was referring to your comment that mortgage companies will want to work with what's his name, not your last post, Tanta.
Yes, the rich are different.
They spend other people's money.
As long as Tanta doesn't disparage Tysons Corner, I'll have no beef with her.
Tysons Corner: a more wretched hive of bland malls and crowded parking lots--plus assorted scum and villainy--I have never seen. Dixit anathema sit!
Scum?
Villainy?
Bland Malls?
Methinks you do not visit the premire shopping mall(s) of the east coast much.
My wife saw a women panhandling on 123. She had a Burberry scarf and somekind of designer coat (name escapes me). These are not scum!
Greenwich should be so lucky.
Chris writes:
Stop being sarcastic, Tanta, it isn't in your nature.
Wow. Really? You really think so? I guess one never knows,...
Wisconsin: land of the frozen custard. yum.
That's more like it, bacon!
Where else can one dress up in a giant sausage costume to compete with others similarly attired to engage in a footrace around a major-league baseball field? Sadly, nowhere.
While you were, eating bratwurst and drinking 27oz draughts and slurring latin, I was taking an inventory in a 75 foot high grain silo in November. Climbing up the side, my fleece gloves would slip, then I'd take off the gloves and my hands would freeze, put them back on.
Now, I have a pass-card for the elevator, the covered parking and the bathroom. The world is my oyster.
What does NYT and Greenwich have in common? I know, I know - they're both synonymous with 'facade'.
Where else can one dress up in a giant sausage costume to compete with others similarly attired to engage in a footrace around a major-league baseball field? Sadly, nowhere.
You could run Bay to Breakers in San Francisco that way. Even being dressed is sometimes considered optional.
well, i can't claim we have sausage races, but we do have this:
Large numbers of participants walk the route behind the runners. Some participants dress in elaborate costumes or, though not technically allowed, wear nothing at all (except footwear), thus lending a party atmosphere to the event. One festive tradition is the tortilla toss, during which runners throw tortillas at one another to pass time (similar to balloon-batting at rock concerts). This was originated by Kinry Louie back in the early 90s. Years before the tortilla tossing started people used to throw their clothes and beach balls around up in the air as it was amusing to watch the flying clothes on television. As Kinry Louie was leaving for the race and knowing that he could not part with his clothes and didn't have a beach ball; he noticed that he had a number of bags of tortilla in the kitchen and thought that it would be cheaper to fly them like frisbees (because they were soft and would not hurt anyone) so he handed out bags of tortillas to his friends who were with him at the Bay to Breakers race and started flinging them.
Bay to Breakers is also the world's premiere event for "centipede racers." Competing teams in the centipede race must consist of a minimum of 13 runners tethered together, usually in some artistic fashion. An additional runner, a floater, usually the team captain, is allowed to run along untethered to pace the team or substitute for drop out runner. Despite the novelty, the centipede race is very competitive. The centipede winners used to have better finishing records than the women's division until just a decade ago.
Bay to Breakers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Meanwhile back on track-
I thought the article was just a puff piece saying we're all subprime now. See, even in the the most affluent neighborhoods they're having problems, just like the rest of America, just with a few zeros added on the end. A little Gatsby-esque maybe.
But I do wish she had mentioned the poker player's name.
lama- A phrase came to mind and I was wondering if there was some kind of accounting Level 3 torture,...you know, accounting that shocks the conscience.
Just wait until the foreclosure tsunami starts hitting Darien and New Canaan. The Aryans from Darien might be displaced. Oh, the humanity.
What a coincidence that this Skwarek guy found a character like Josephberg to rent his house...
bacon dreamz did you see the comments on today's genworth thread about the TBK article on Bankstock you posted yesterday
Meritocracy and mobility is the big lie in America.
I don't know what it will take to get them to give it up; I still get lectures about unions destroying this country and the like.
I suppose as long as they can cite anecdotal evidence of how someone like them made it they'll continue on wage slaving.
sdtfs,
If you mean a mess, we use "cluster#@*%" just like everyone else. Believe it or not, there's not much unique slang in accounting. There's lots of complex technical language that usually refers to simple concepts.
Zbiggy is toast. It's one thing to be a puke. It's another thing to get outed as a puke in the NYT. You really think the guy at the servicer wants to take a chance on this guy? Sounds like he and his former tenants have much in common. Glad they were able to find eachother.
What does it mean to be "affluent"?
"They're just living hand to mouth... at a higher plateau."
-- John Guare, "Six Degrees of Separation"
Tysons Corner: a more wretched hive of bland malls and crowded parking lots--plus assorted scum and villainy--I have never seen. Dixit anathema sit!
You're being far too charitable to that glossy shithole.
Tanta,
I think you meant to write "The furthest west I have ever actually lived was in Iowa, about 100 miles west of the Mississippi."
bacon dreamz did you see the comments on today's genworth thread about the TBK article on Bankstock you posted yesterday
i did. i think there are serious problems with that guy's data and methodology (too many to get into in the comments). i do like the fact that he claims UBS is the only IB that has analyzed the ABX at the bond level, and then forgets to mention that their loss estimates are significantly HIGHER than the RA's.
I thought TBK's methodology was perversely simplistic
plus his numbers are flat out wrong. on what planet is the 2006 subprime vintage paid down to a factor of 0.5? last i checked it was around 0.7.
From the article: He considers this $12 billion figure to be reassuringly small, saying, "Pardon me for a moment while I'm non-hysterical."
The $12B-to-date figure seems far too low, too. My guess is we are now at Hayes Street Hill - didn't we already pass the $12B mark back around Fremont Street?
well his first problem is that he started with 2006 subprime originations of $600B, which comes from inside mortgage finance, then makes the assumption that ABX 06-1 and 06-2 are equivalent to 2006 vintage loans and applies the loss, delinquency, prepayments, etc from those pools to the $600B number.
LAST!
Laster!!
Tanta -- here's the word of the year:
He's effluent.
h2 writes:
Tanta,
I think you meant to write "The furthest west I have ever actually lived was in Iowa, about 100 miles west of the Mississippi."
h2 | 04.25.08 - 2:06 pm | #
Maybe she is referring to Orland Park - isn't that an Iowa Colony?
for those who don't know, btw, the loans backing ABX 06-1 (which is an index of MBS issued in 2H05) were mostly originated in early/mid 2005.
I think you meant to write "The furthest west I have ever actually lived was in Iowa, about 100 miles west of the Mississippi."
Oh, look! People who know where Iowa is! Thank god it's not all just coastal elites around here.
I have no idea what synapses were failing to fire when I typed that. I blame it on the shock induced by being considered an uppity west coast caucasian.
lama writes:
sdtfs,
If you mean a mess
Nah, I just like the phrase "shocks the conscience" and I believe it needs wider circulation.
People who know where Iowa is!
Yeah, we used to get under my BIL's skin when we complimented him (and other Iowans) by saying how great, really great, you Buckeyes[sic] are!
...taking an inventory in a 75 foot high grain silo in November. Climbing up the side, my fleece gloves would slip ...
Go easy, lama. Wouldn't do to start an arms race here. I'd might lose control and start in on that day cleaning out the 3-foot deep accumulation of ... (ahem) ... organic fertilizer ... out of a 50 x 150 old-style chicken coop some decades past. Wooooooheeee, but that ... 100% natural organic fertilizer ... does clean out the sinuses.
And dryfly can probably one-up that. No tell'in what he'd come back with.
They don't call me Stinky for nothing!