Can someone please explain the net effect of all this lost MEW, the loss of these mortgage originations adding all this nonexistent money through the economy and how all the losses for the past 4 years are going to have to be paid back?
CR: I think that this data is more important than the percent equity from the prior post. Is this data available for other years, so that we could see how the current situation compares to other years and also see the trend? Thanks.
this whole thing is coming unclued. a 10% decline in a cpdo will cause 90% losses.
LONDON (Dow Jones)--A combination of the rising price of derivatives, which insure investors against corporate defaults, and a fall in the value of debt issued by a large structured investment company, saw ratings on a Constant Proportion Debt Obligation, or CPDO, cut dramatically this week.
Moody's Investors Service said Wednesday it had downgraded Series 55 JPY30 billion REDI Notes, issued by Clear PLC, to C from Aa3.
The deal was structured by Merrill Lynch (MER).
The rating agency said that the net asset value of the deal had dropped below 10%, triggering a "cash out" credit event that could see investor losses "likely to exceed 90%" if the deal is now unwound.
CPDOs issue notes and generate returns by selling default insurance using credit default swaps. They can vary the leverage of their investment according to how it performs over time.
But the credit crisis has driven credit default swap spreads wider, and investors who sold protection when spreads were very tight may be facing mark-to-market losses.
The Markit iTraxx Europe index, which measures the cost of default insurance on 125 investment-grade European corporate borrowers, traded at 142.5 basis points Thursday, a record high, one market participant said.
Moody's said that the widening on the iTraxx Europe index and its U.S. equivalent, the CDX.NA.IG index, had caused the NAV of the swap in the REDI Notes deal to drop to approximately 45%.
In addition, the downgraded CPDO is exposed to the market value of collateral which was purchased with the proceeds generated when it sold notes to investors.
The collateral is a yen-denominated bond maturing in 2022 issued by Sigma Finance Corporation. Moody's said that the market value of the collateral had dropped to around 65%.
Sigma is a large investment vehicle run by London-based investment manager Gordian Knot Ltd. It is similar to some of the Structured Investment Vehicles, or SIVs, that borrow short-term debt to invest in longer-term, higher-yielding assets such as bank debt or mortgage-backed bonds, although Sigma doesn't have the kind of market value triggers that have forced some SIVs to be restructured.
Moody's said that the use of this type of collateral wasn't a feature of other CPDOs that it rated.
"In most CPDOs, the initial investment, valued at par or 100%, goes into a cash deposit at the bank that executes the credit default swap, and the NAV of the vehicle is 100, plus or minus the mark-to-market value of the derivative," Gareth Levington, managing director, structured finance at Moody's in London, told Dow Jones Newswires Thursday. "In this case, for the purpose of the cash out test, the NAV was the value of the Sigma bond plus or minus the derivative. So as the bond traded away from par, you needed less mark-to-market movement to reach the cash out trigger."
The first CPDOs were one of the most talked-about innovations of the credit bull market, thanks to their ability to pay investors a high coupon while securing triple-A credit ratings. But the credit crisis has put the long-term future of the product in doubt.
"CPDOs are still under pressure given elevated investment grade index levels," said strategists at UniCredit in Munich in a note Thursday.
They said that some CDPO notes were trading below 25% of the price at which they launched, suggesting that "to some speculative investors this appears to be an opportunity."
A spokesperson for Merrill Lynch declined to comment.
Included are 18 examples of individual properties selling at 40% losses. Actually much more if you account for inflation, taxes, realtor commissions, etc.
Whatever the nationwide figure is, it is clear there are large swaths of California (and FL, AZ, MA, MI, NV...)where the majority of "homeowners" are deeply underwater on their mortgages.
Also there are now a total of 5 houses and 35 condos in San Diego selling for less than $100,000. 18 months ago the number selling for under $150,000 was precisely zero, now there are 210 on the market.
A few of them look pretty nice, with fancy kitchens in decent neighborhoods. Here they are:
If homes drop as much as expected, most people with a mortgage will be stuck in their home. That is unless they cough up some money at closing. Since the buyer will likely be having to sell too, they'll need money at closing too.
If you put two and two together, there's not going to be a lot of home selling going on.
Sebastian, your (fiscally responsible) kind are overwhelmed in the numbers by millions who spent every dime of their equity or who bought with close to 0% down.
OT- I was thinking. This recession/depression in the making does have a couple bright spots-
Telecommuting might catch on in a big way
Obesity will decrease and will become less prevalent. Especially child obesity. (per recent child food article posted in couple articles back)Hey maybe this was the master plan to attack that problem!
Global warming will peak, oil will unpeak because nobody can afford it
(which might help in terrorism war)
Overthrow of the 2 party lobbyist backed system by angry public
More camping out (could be forced to) better for the brain
No more young adults partying in Cancun during spring
Less crowded waves in far away places!
Humility rises up to meet greed
Off to Hawaii...Tomorrow will be interesting but who cares when your sitting on the beach with a beer, next to a g-string!
Whatever the nationwide figure is, it is clear there are large swaths of California (and FL, AZ, MA, MI, NV...)where the majority of "homeowners" are deeply underwater on their mortgages.
Pilgrim said: "Sebastian, your (fiscally responsible) kind are overwhelmed in the numbers by millions who spent every dime of their equity or who bought with close to 0% down."
Yes, but in the past (when I was younger, poorer and had fewer assets) I was one of those people, too. Career advancement and slow-but-steady accumulation of assets made me wealthier as I matured.
Low interest rates and easy money have allowed lots of people to buy homes in recent years, it's just that they haven't been in those homes long enough to build any meaningful equity.
That's a normal, life-long process, but CR isn't interested in explaining that, he's interested in advancing his bearish, California-centric point of view.
And never mind about minor details, like that "record" foreclosure rates were caused by making home loans to people who were bad risks to begin with and weren't representative of typical homebuyers.
Does it matter much now? There was a discussion on our local housing bubble blog started by someone who said that he put a house on the market last summer and it was on the market for about six months before he took it off. Then he went to get his HELOC increased (said he's got 90% equity and 780FICO, as I recall). The increase would have put the HELOC at about 1/3 of "market" value for the house. The bank refused. He asserted that the lenders are checking to see if a house has been on the market and then taken off without selling and if so, they won't give any home equity loans on that property.
Whether or not that's true (and it well could be) it seems that the lenders are not at all willing to much home equity lending at this point even if someone has plenty of equity.
Eight years ago I bought the house I'm living in for 5% down (5% equity).
Today, from a combination of monthly mortgage payments and housing price appreciation I've got 36% equity (and it's still rising).
Let me guess, the large majority of that 36% "equity" was due to rising prices (which are now "rising" in a different direction), not repayment of principal?
Then of course, there's your "bought before the bubble" factor, and the (implied) presumption that you never refi'd, HELOC'd or cash-out in any way, and we can conclude that people like Sebastian constitute about 0.0000001% of the current U.S. Housing market.
Enjoy the fact you have far better timing and impulse control than the rest of your neighbors, and enjoy that vapor-equity (while you still have it).
Bofiz
perfect timing for my remarks.
There is endless chatter about the dumb sub-primers and evil alt-A-ers but what about the MEWers.This last group is not one I have any sympathy for, if they cat-pissed themselves into harms way.
CR any what percent of equity there would be if there was no MEWing.
I have seen estimates up to 2% of GDP that were financed by MEWs. But I haven't seen discussion of it as a source of deflatio
California has 12.5% of the USA's population and due to higher prices about 25% of its real estate market. Any blog addressing the US real estate market is going to be "California-centric."
And what's wrong with being bearish when prices are declining? That's the correct view, and I am sure reading CR allowed many people to avoid losing a lot of money by buying during the bubble.
During the bubble 98% of the information about the RE market was bullish, with David Leraeh all by himself being quoted in the press more than all the bears put together.
Even now according to a recent poll 55% of the public thinks RE prices are increasing. There is still a lot of misinformation out there being put out by the well organized groups that have large financial stakes in keeping the bubble going.
"California has 12.5% of the USA's population and due to higher prices about 25% of its real estate market."
This dynamic may drive the "national average," but all real estate is local. Price movements outside the CA-FL-AZ-NV bubble are going to be driven by local economic and demographic fundamentals...even though most media 'analyses' seem to infer that homeowners everywhere will be taking a bath.
Sebastian, mortgage lending increased up to ONE TRILLION DOLLARS per year during the 3 peak boom years.
For 2007 we saw that it's now back down to ~$600B/yr -- 2002 levels -- and still falling.
When you throw ONE TRILLION DOLLARS at a market, prices are going to zoom to the moon.
When you take away the bubble money, prices HAVE TO fall back down to earth.
Earth being pre-bubble valuations. In some areas, this is really, really going to hurt. Millions of people. In other areas like where you are in BFE, not so much.
Sebastian said equity is now 36%. If you have not completed the sale which is the only way to know truthfully what equity you have/had then everything else is just speculation. Remember all of the phony assesments? They were also just speculation or desire. These assets only value is what you can get for them when you sell them. Lots of people thought 2 years ago that their purchase was a good deal. What is their opinion now?
Sebastian's 8 year performance is pretty dismal. Just paying down a 30yr fixed for that long plus the 5% down is 15% of the 36% equity. The other 21% is something like 2.5% per year. There were periods over the last 8 years when I had months like that.
I wonder why CR assumes that paid-off homes have a lower value on average. This is not self-evident to me. At least in Los Angeles where I live, most older homeowners have long-owned houses in very desirable (therefore expensive) neighborhoods. The houses may be due for updating but they are still quite valuable due to their location. With the movement of the affluent back into the more established parts of the city this tends to favor elderly homeowners. In fact this phenomenon is exaggerated by the falling market as an established neighborhood is perceived to be a less risky investment. If this is true elsewhere then the numbers might be a little different than CR is using here.
Since he bought his place in 2000 I assume Sebastian is fine in terms of equity. I don't understand, though, why he seems to deny the vivid deflation of real estate values in all the bubble zones. Those unqualified buyers that he mentions are the people whose entry into the market puffed up the values artificially. Once they are gone from the market there's nothing there to hold up the values.
He referenced and provided a link to the statistics in the American Community Survey. Look them up for yourself. Once you see the data, it will be "self-evident" to you!
The situation may even be worse than CR calculates.
His distribution data comes from 2006. If we assume that that the frothy parts of the national RE market were the parts had a higher ratio of mortgaged property AND that those areas have suffered a larger %age drop in selling prices than the rest of the country:
Curious, you're right, I should have looked at the table. What rubbish. I'm supposed to believe that paid-off houses have a median value 2/3 of those with mortgages? Whoever put this table together did nothing more than check assessed values which in some states at least merely reflect what they last sold for. Obvously, on average, paid-off house last sold further back in time and will therefore have lower recorded "values." This table is laughable. Utter rubbish. Just go out and have a look-see at where the older homeowners live. They live in expensive established neighborhoods.
Can someone please explain the net effect of all this lost MEW, the loss of these mortgage originations adding all this nonexistent money through the economy and how all the losses for the past 4 years are going to have to be paid back?
I wonder how much of that equity was earned not investment. It is harder to walk away from something you worked you ass off for.
divide home mortgages ($10,508.8 billion)
So if house prices fall 25%, lenders and tax payers have to cough up over $2.5 trillion to absorb principal writedowns?
I don't understand how it's possible to do this on a selective basis without making a lot of people really angry.
CR: I think that this data is more important than the percent equity from the prior post. Is this data available for other years, so that we could see how the current situation compares to other years and also see the trend? Thanks.
this whole thing is coming unclued. a 10% decline in a cpdo will cause 90% losses.
LONDON (Dow Jones)--A combination of the rising price of derivatives, which insure investors against corporate defaults, and a fall in the value of debt issued by a large structured investment company, saw ratings on a Constant Proportion Debt Obligation, or CPDO, cut dramatically this week.
Moody's Investors Service said Wednesday it had downgraded Series 55 JPY30 billion REDI Notes, issued by Clear PLC, to C from Aa3.
The deal was structured by Merrill Lynch (MER).
The rating agency said that the net asset value of the deal had dropped below 10%, triggering a "cash out" credit event that could see investor losses "likely to exceed 90%" if the deal is now unwound.
CPDOs issue notes and generate returns by selling default insurance using credit default swaps. They can vary the leverage of their investment according to how it performs over time.
But the credit crisis has driven credit default swap spreads wider, and investors who sold protection when spreads were very tight may be facing mark-to-market losses.
The Markit iTraxx Europe index, which measures the cost of default insurance on 125 investment-grade European corporate borrowers, traded at 142.5 basis points Thursday, a record high, one market participant said.
Moody's said that the widening on the iTraxx Europe index and its U.S. equivalent, the CDX.NA.IG index, had caused the NAV of the swap in the REDI Notes deal to drop to approximately 45%.
In addition, the downgraded CPDO is exposed to the market value of collateral which was purchased with the proceeds generated when it sold notes to investors.
The collateral is a yen-denominated bond maturing in 2022 issued by Sigma Finance Corporation. Moody's said that the market value of the collateral had dropped to around 65%.
Sigma is a large investment vehicle run by London-based investment manager Gordian Knot Ltd. It is similar to some of the Structured Investment Vehicles, or SIVs, that borrow short-term debt to invest in longer-term, higher-yielding assets such as bank debt or mortgage-backed bonds, although Sigma doesn't have the kind of market value triggers that have forced some SIVs to be restructured.
Moody's said that the use of this type of collateral wasn't a feature of other CPDOs that it rated.
"In most CPDOs, the initial investment, valued at par or 100%, goes into a cash deposit at the bank that executes the credit default swap, and the NAV of the vehicle is 100, plus or minus the mark-to-market value of the derivative," Gareth Levington, managing director, structured finance at Moody's in London, told Dow Jones Newswires Thursday. "In this case, for the purpose of the cash out test, the NAV was the value of the Sigma bond plus or minus the derivative. So as the bond traded away from par, you needed less mark-to-market movement to reach the cash out trigger."
The first CPDOs were one of the most talked-about innovations of the credit bull market, thanks to their ability to pay investors a high coupon while securing triple-A credit ratings. But the credit crisis has put the long-term future of the product in doubt.
"CPDOs are still under pressure given elevated investment grade index levels," said strategists at UniCredit in Munich in a note Thursday.
They said that some CDPO notes were trading below 25% of the price at which they launched, suggesting that "to some speculative investors this appears to be an opportunity."
A spokesperson for Merrill Lynch declined to comment.
-Mark Brown, Dow Jones Newswires; +44 (0)207 842 9485, mark.brown@dowjones.com
03-06-08 1445ET
I profiled another San Diego zip code where home prices are down 40-60% from 2004-2006 prices.
Houses and Condos in San Diego’s College Area fall 40-60% in price « Greg’s Law & Economics Blog
Included are 18 examples of individual properties selling at 40% losses. Actually much more if you account for inflation, taxes, realtor commissions, etc.
Whatever the nationwide figure is, it is clear there are large swaths of California (and FL, AZ, MA, MI, NV...)where the majority of "homeowners" are deeply underwater on their mortgages.
What's the source for the valuations of the mortgaged (and unmortgaged) residences?
Also there are now a total of 5 houses and 35 condos in San Diego selling for less than $100,000. 18 months ago the number selling for under $150,000 was precisely zero, now there are 210 on the market.
A few of them look pretty nice, with fancy kitchens in decent neighborhoods. Here they are:
San Diego real estate & San Diego homes for sale | Single family homes,Condos,Townhomes,Co-ops - REALTOR.com®
If homes drop as much as expected, most people with a mortgage will be stuck in their home. That is unless they cough up some money at closing. Since the buyer will likely be having to sell too, they'll need money at closing too.
If you put two and two together, there's not going to be a lot of home selling going on.
Eight years ago I bought the house I'm living in for 5% down (5% equity).
Today, from a combination of monthly mortgage payments and housing price appreciation I've got 36% equity (and it's still rising).
Q: Where am I and the millions of other financially-responsible baby-boomers to be found on all these charts that show falling household equity?
Sebastia
Sebastian, your (fiscally responsible) kind are overwhelmed in the numbers by millions who spent every dime of their equity or who bought with close to 0% down.
Seb, you're in the group that will have about 6% equity when prices eventually bottom out -- and for a long time thereafter.
OT- I was thinking. This recession/depression in the making does have a couple bright spots-
(which might help in terrorism war)
Off to Hawaii...Tomorrow will be interesting but who cares when your sitting on the beach with a beer, next to a g-string!
If you put two and two together, there's not going to be a lot of home selling going on
Every home owner who can't sell is also someone who can't buy.
People stuck in their houses, or who just don't want to move, make no difference to the market.
It's the people who have to sell and people able and willing to buy that matter, and the former are increasing while the latter are decreasing.
Whatever the nationwide figure is, it is clear there are large swaths of California (and FL, AZ, MA, MI, NV...)where the majority of "homeowners" are deeply underwater on their mortgages.
Greg,
Thanks for the good homework. You da man!
[
cd writes:
OT- I was thinking. This recession/depression in the making does have a couple bright spots-
]
1 and 2 are contradictory. (I know since I've telecommuted for years)
Must...think...harder...
But what does this tell us?
(47.9%)
the glass is mostly half full !!
Dear CR
Just wanted to say at this point...that your anaylsis is outstanding.
Best regards,
Thanks CR.
Pilgrim said: "Sebastian, your (fiscally responsible) kind are overwhelmed in the numbers by millions who spent every dime of their equity or who bought with close to 0% down."
Yes, but in the past (when I was younger, poorer and had fewer assets) I was one of those people, too. Career advancement and slow-but-steady accumulation of assets made me wealthier as I matured.
Low interest rates and easy money have allowed lots of people to buy homes in recent years, it's just that they haven't been in those homes long enough to build any meaningful equity.
That's a normal, life-long process, but CR isn't interested in explaining that, he's interested in advancing his bearish, California-centric point of view.
And never mind about minor details, like that "record" foreclosure rates were caused by making home loans to people who were bad risks to begin with and weren't representative of typical homebuyers.
S.
I think that the credit crunch may have more impact on MEW than the actual loss of equity...
unless that loss becomes enormous.
Sebastian
I don't know that we don't have a case of kill the messenger with bad news.
so er.. how much of your 36% equity was payments and how much is asset appreciation?
Does it matter much now? There was a discussion on our local housing bubble blog started by someone who said that he put a house on the market last summer and it was on the market for about six months before he took it off. Then he went to get his HELOC increased (said he's got 90% equity and 780FICO, as I recall). The increase would have put the HELOC at about 1/3 of "market" value for the house. The bank refused. He asserted that the lenders are checking to see if a house has been on the market and then taken off without selling and if so, they won't give any home equity loans on that property.
Whether or not that's true (and it well could be) it seems that the lenders are not at all willing to much home equity lending at this point even if someone has plenty of equity.
Eight years ago I bought the house I'm living in for 5% down (5% equity).
Today, from a combination of monthly mortgage payments and housing price appreciation I've got 36% equity (and it's still rising).
Let me guess, the large majority of that 36% "equity" was due to rising prices (which are now "rising" in a different direction), not repayment of principal?
Then of course, there's your "bought before the bubble" factor, and the (implied) presumption that you never refi'd, HELOC'd or cash-out in any way, and we can conclude that people like Sebastian constitute about 0.0000001% of the current U.S. Housing market.
Enjoy the fact you have far better timing and impulse control than the rest of your neighbors, and enjoy that vapor-equity (while you still have it).
Sebastian, living in Libya Hill, circa October 1929.
You Can't Go Home Again!
Bofiz
perfect timing for my remarks.
There is endless chatter about the dumb sub-primers and evil alt-A-ers but what about the MEWers.This last group is not one I have any sympathy for, if they cat-pissed themselves into harms way.
CR any what percent of equity there would be if there was no MEWing.
I have seen estimates up to 2% of GDP that were financed by MEWs. But I haven't seen discussion of it as a source of deflatio
Ref Freakdog
All loans are paid off either by the borrower or the lender. It looks like the lenders are going to eat these losses.
California has 12.5% of the USA's population and due to higher prices about 25% of its real estate market. Any blog addressing the US real estate market is going to be "California-centric."
And what's wrong with being bearish when prices are declining? That's the correct view, and I am sure reading CR allowed many people to avoid losing a lot of money by buying during the bubble.
During the bubble 98% of the information about the RE market was bullish, with David Leraeh all by himself being quoted in the press more than all the bears put together.
Even now according to a recent poll 55% of the public thinks RE prices are increasing. There is still a lot of misinformation out there being put out by the well organized groups that have large financial stakes in keeping the bubble going.
"California has 12.5% of the USA's population and due to higher prices about 25% of its real estate market."
This dynamic may drive the "national average," but all real estate is local. Price movements outside the CA-FL-AZ-NV bubble are going to be driven by local economic and demographic fundamentals...even though most media 'analyses' seem to infer that homeowners everywhere will be taking a bath.
Sebastian, mortgage lending increased up to ONE TRILLION DOLLARS per year during the 3 peak boom years.
For 2007 we saw that it's now back down to ~$600B/yr -- 2002 levels -- and still falling.
When you throw ONE TRILLION DOLLARS at a market, prices are going to zoom to the moon.
When you take away the bubble money, prices HAVE TO fall back down to earth.
Earth being pre-bubble valuations. In some areas, this is really, really going to hurt. Millions of people. In other areas like where you are in BFE, not so much.
Sebastian said equity is now 36%. If you have not completed the sale which is the only way to know truthfully what equity you have/had then everything else is just speculation. Remember all of the phony assesments? They were also just speculation or desire. These assets only value is what you can get for them when you sell them. Lots of people thought 2 years ago that their purchase was a good deal. What is their opinion now?
Sebastian's 8 year performance is pretty dismal. Just paying down a 30yr fixed for that long plus the 5% down is 15% of the 36% equity. The other 21% is something like 2.5% per year. There were periods over the last 8 years when I had months like that.
I wonder why CR assumes that paid-off homes have a lower value on average. This is not self-evident to me. At least in Los Angeles where I live, most older homeowners have long-owned houses in very desirable (therefore expensive) neighborhoods. The houses may be due for updating but they are still quite valuable due to their location. With the movement of the affluent back into the more established parts of the city this tends to favor elderly homeowners. In fact this phenomenon is exaggerated by the falling market as an established neighborhood is perceived to be a less risky investment. If this is true elsewhere then the numbers might be a little different than CR is using here.
Since he bought his place in 2000 I assume Sebastian is fine in terms of equity. I don't understand, though, why he seems to deny the vivid deflation of real estate values in all the bubble zones. Those unqualified buyers that he mentions are the people whose entry into the market puffed up the values artificially. Once they are gone from the market there's nothing there to hold up the values.
flamina,
He referenced and provided a link to the statistics in the American Community Survey. Look them up for yourself. Once you see the data, it will be "self-evident" to you!
The situation may even be worse than CR calculates.
His distribution data comes from 2006. If we assume that that the frothy parts of the national RE market were the parts had a higher ratio of mortgaged property AND that those areas have suffered a larger %age drop in selling prices than the rest of the country:
we are so screwed.
Curious, you're right, I should have looked at the table. What rubbish. I'm supposed to believe that paid-off houses have a median value 2/3 of those with mortgages? Whoever put this table together did nothing more than check assessed values which in some states at least merely reflect what they last sold for. Obvously, on average, paid-off house last sold further back in time and will therefore have lower recorded "values." This table is laughable. Utter rubbish. Just go out and have a look-see at where the older homeowners live. They live in expensive established neighborhoods.