Sounds like we're going to need an advocacy group for the houses, maybe the homeless advocacy groups could take this on, too. Or perhaps it might be a conflict of interest there.
Maybe they should start a market for vacant home adoption. The owners of a vacant homes has to buy adoption or otherwise maintain the homes themselves.
Property tax can be increased for homes that are vacant and not maintained, and can unpaid property taxes be a cause of foreclosure (by the city to retrieve the taxes owed)?
Ah yes, now not only does the bank own "your" home without having any responsibilities, you are supposed to "help" the same banker by taking care of a home he owns but will take no responsibility for. Sounds like a great deal to me! Sign me up right now!
Aside from "adopting" the vacant home, what is the long term solution to a property where there is no identifiable owner? Are municipalties able to sieze properties when they can't find the owner? What if there is an outstanding mortgage as well, and the lender refuses to foreclose? Does this create a permanent lien that can never be undone?
A question of even greater import these days is what can home-owners do when it is unclear who owns their mortgage (i.e. because there is no clear documentation indicating a legal assignee)? Can borrowers just get the courts to vacate their mortgage if the lender can't demonstrate legal ownership of the mortgage?
Heck, how can you even sell the house and pay off the mortgage if there is no legal holder of the mortgage note?
I wonder if you can deduct expenses from taking care of another home thats not yours. If you could, maybe it would spur people to take care of other homes more often. I doubt one might be able to do that.
We have one next door that's been empty about one and a half years. High school students use it as a thoroughfare, and leave scads of trash behind. We pick it up, and do other minor things, but it is a drag.
This time around, the builders are angling for a $10,000 credit [for 3 years], maintaining that on a price-adjusted basis, that amount is equal to the 1975 credit.
It will be intersting if buyers start waiting for the law to be passed before they buy. You don't want to be cut out of such a deal.
Riiiight. Your taxes are going up, your services are going down. Heck, if you are in parts of Los Angeles you are about to be billed for replacing the dangerous unmaintained sidewalks that the city ran across your property despite your fighting against them for decades. And now it is time to show community solidarity? The same "community" that bowed to the most obscene development deals that have destroyed the character of your community. The people being asked now to help have been getting screwed by these same municipalites for years and it is time to discover that there's a price to pay for ignoring the popular will.
It says something profound about America that our leaders call on us to adopt a "home" but never called on us to adopt a "homeless".
This sad concept that we are a consumerist society, that we, the people, are a herd of consumers has infected our society. It's ultimate expression lies in the intense house fixation that most people suffer.
George Carlin said that a house is just a big pile of stuff with a lid on it. So true today and so sad.
I wish more Americans could get a better grip on the difference between objects and people, between houses and community.
"you are supposed to "help" the same banker by taking care of a home he owns but will take no responsibility for"
pbpcbs | 02.22.08 - 2:14 pm
CR probably has more reasonable expectations of banks than that, so decided to take action. Whether its from his personal experience with banks, or his innate intelligence I can't say. I'd love to hear his answer.
excerpt from Market watch story on tax credit for housing stimulus package.
"Whether the renewed interest in a tax credit is a result of some hard-nosed lobbying on the part home builders is anybody's guess. But earlier this month at its annual convention in Orlando, Fla., the National Association of Home Builders took the unprecedented step of suspending all political contributions to federal candidates and their political action committees."
If history is any guide, when one segment of the econmy causes a problem across the general economy, it isn't wise to try and prop up the failing part of the economy. It would be far better to focus on a new engine of growth for the economy to replace housing.
The housing problem has one solution. Let the prices drop to a point where houses are affordable. If the goverment is going to invest in the US economy, instead of housing stimulus packages, they should invest in alternative energy or something that will produce jobs the economy actually needs.
The city or other local government has a tax lien which beats the bank's mortgage lien -- this is why careful banks have the mortgagor pay monthly into an escrow from which the bank then pays the taxes.
As I understand the process the government does not actually foreclose the tax lien. What they do is sell it at auction so that they get their money up front. The auction price is the amount of the lien, and the bidding is on how low an interest rate the bidder is willing to charge the mortgagor while he waits for his money and trys to collect.
Usually, the buyer of the tax lien will work out a payment plan with the owner -- if there is one available -- but if the lien holder hasn't been able to collect in (usually) two years, then he can foreclose and end up owning the property free of the bank's mortgage lien.
The problem in the abandoned house case is, of course, the two year delay even after the city gets around to auctioning the tax lien.
There's nothing new in this. There have been blocks of abandoned houses in virtually every small and large city in the US for 30 years or more. Go abroad and come back to the US and it's one of the first things you notice. Now that's it's showing up in middle-class neighbourhoods, it's news.
One of the houses in my neighborhood (in Denver) had been vacant for so long that a tree had grown up, rooted in a gap between the foundation and front porch slab. The tree blocked the front door and grew so large that it was about 1.5" in diameter and poked out a hole in the roofing between the porch and house. There were a couple other vacant houses that the owners wanted to sell, not rent. The asking price for 50 year old houses is in the mid 200s, which is barking mad insane.
Sure, I'd like to rent one of them, as I'd like a back yard to grow some fruit and veggies. And some of these streets have some wild character. One in particular, the folks who own dogs on that street all own dachshunds and the shared fence lines they have are about 3 feet high, because that's more than enough for their dogs.
The tree blocked the front door and grew so large that it was about 1.5" in diameter
Surely you mean 1.5' or 18"? Or is this some reference to the movie Spinal Tap and the Stonehenge bit? One and a half inches wouldn't make a good blockage or a good treehouse.
In the 1970's in England, where there was at the same time a tight housing market and many properties sitting empty and unused, then 'squatting' was born. People would 'legally' enter an unused home, perhaps change the locks in the house, and reside there. It was not a criminal offence, they could only be evicted after the owner had procured court documents ordering their eviction. Provided they had done no damage or stolen anything, no other action than eviction could be taken.
This was due to some old loophole in the law, I believe altered by Parliament. So I ask, do such loopholes exist here in the U.S.?
I should add there was some sympathy for the squatters, people felt houses should not be left empty while there was a housing shortage.
A fine line between renting and adopting, but would yah rather have a low income renter or a bando.
This is all about market efficiency, you either adapt and write down losses and get real, or hang in there with greed as your motive and then play this game of waiting for more losses. It will take time to grind people down, so why not be proactive now?
I honestly believe that civil disobedience is the inevitable consequence of the dimunition of property rights and distortions in land use regulation.
The house next to me is empty. It is a viper's nest of zoning and engineering code violations. This McStrosity is 4900 sf "replacing" the previous 1400 sf home. I'm expected to go and skim leaves from the unpermitted pool so that what? The owner can continue to drive his Lotus Esprit V8? The owner can continue to build a 10,000 sf house two miles away?
My neighbors stopped renting out the summer cabin next to me after the renters were more trouble than the rent was worth. I clean the leaves and tree branches up, scrub it down a bit; less trouble than the renters were and far less hassle than dealing with squatters would be. Seems pretty obvious that it is worth doing, takes maybe two hours a month.
There seems to be an attempt to live as solitary islands, with no connection or mutual assistance with neighbors and community. Seems far better to me to just do it than to waste the time whining about it and not have it done.
How about the towns hire unemployed and welfare recipients to take care of the vacant homes and then pass on the bill as a tax lien (1st position) to the banks who now own the properties but won't take care of them.
Inch and half diameter. Sure it wasn't tree-house grade, but it blocked/obstructed the front door, so anyone riding down the street (it was also on a bus route until last year) could see clearly that it was vacant. I think it was a maple, and to get that size (about 20 feet tall), it had to have grown unattended for something near 10 years.
I see two other possibilities. Either let the property decay then complain and have the city condemn and demolish the house or talk to an attorney to see what actions would amount to constructive possession. Then you care and use the property in a constructive possession way for the required period then sue to take it from the "missing" owner after a period of time.
If the bank or "owner" isn't willing to look after the property, they shouldn't expect the neighbors to tolerate it without some actions being taken.
Maybe they could work out a program to rent these houses out for a nominal fee and short-term lease to homeless families?
This was just the idea I proposed on this very forum yesterday.
Section 8. Or some other program. There can be minimum qualifications so that you don't get Crackhead King and his loyal subjects moving in and scaring the neighbors.
But with all these empty homes causing problems, and all the newly unemployed realtors, builders, etc., with families, this could be an excellent opportunity for a country to learn a lesson in charity and good will. Morale, a big issue these days, would also be improved.
Renters could be required to upkeep the properties, and they could be evicted quickly - 30 days - should problems arise.
I have an even better idea: how about the bank sells the vacant house for a reasonable price so we can actually buy the stupid place and live there?!
I am seeing some sort of insane world where: foreclosure dupes are either homeless or renting sleazy apartments, honest savers are somehow forced into "adopting" vacant homes, and the vacant houses sit - unable to be bought by the savers - because the banks refuse to lower the prices to something affordable?
It's nuts - why should we "adopt" somebody else's screw-up? Just lower the price already and we'll start selling houses to people who can afford them!
Maybe we need warrents for caring for vacant houses that honest savers can use to eventually buy the house, or some such thing. No doubt we can then secure these loans with collateral, such as the weeds pulled out of the lawn of the vacant house... or something... argh!
In my upscale tract in So.Cal. there are 8-10 REO's. The HOA says that there are 23k in past due dues. So not to mention the eyesore that these are becoming, now we are running a deficit in the HOA budget. As ususal the responsible take care of the dopes.
I may be mistaken, but don't HOAs have power to foreclose a home for HOA fees? If so, just threaten the banks to pay HOA fees or otherwise the HOA will initiate foreclosures to take the homes away from the banks and sell them to cover HOA fees overdue. Can anyone confirm that?
This poor run down decrepit shack is but three doors away from me. Unoccupied, unloved. The tragedy is unbearable, please what can I do to help? Sold 08/03/2005: $2,300,000 asking $2,389,000 now. These people are looking to lose... ummm well... Okay, they aren't really "losing" when you subtract out OER but well they aren't getting fabulous returns on their investment. Can someone take up a collection of unused yacht wax perhaps?
I bring up this and my other neighbors because I'm getting tired of this being a housing crisis. There won't be 'Obamatowns like there were Hoovervilles 75 years ago. The five houses within 200 yards of me currently offered for sale at a combined $13 million have zero children 6 adults total. Wipe them away and nobody is on the streets or so much as looking for a subsidized rental yet they represent monetarily more than 50 "typical" national houses.
well said, Pondering, well said. If the banks aren't willing to reduce the price to an affordable level, then they are skirting their obligation as a homeowner (which they are) by letting the yard grow wild, leaving doors wide open, tolerating trespassing, allowing trash to accumulate, watching their pools turn green and fester with mosquitoes. There are nuisance laws in many areas that can and often are enforced by concerned neighbors.
I have an even better idea: how about the bank sells the vacant house for a reasonable price so we can actually buy the stupid place and live there?!
If the banks aren't willing to reduce the price to an affordable level, then they are skirting their obligation as a homeowner (which they are) by letting the yard grow wild...
Time for a bit of enlightenment. Let me tell you the story of the house down the street from me. Wells Fargo filed a foreclosure action on Feb. 7, 2007, 54 weeks ago. The owners moved out right around that time. And then Wells Fargo did ... nothing. The last court action was filing the lis pendens. Wells Fargo hasn't requested any hearings since then. They never formally took possession. They have never tried to sell it. They never put it up for auction.
Technically, the borrower is still the owner. Wells knows that the owner has vacated and moved three time zones away. They just don't care.
The next-door neighbors bitched and moaned but didn't mow the lawn or trim the shrubs. (When the rental house next door to me was vacant for a year, I did those things, even though the owners live 60 miles away and could have had it taken care of.) Finally they got the HOA to hire a gardener to do basic yardwork twice a month. The HOA probably will never get its money back.
The point is: I'm not sure you can force the bank to formally take possession, or to take care of the house. That way, they don't have to recognize the loss -- they can put off that day of reckoning.
The way that it's SUPPOSED to work is that the house gets foreclosed upon, the house gets sold at the "market clearing" price, the new owner moves in and takes care of the house.
The PROBLEM is that the market clearing price is not being reached, because unrealistic sellers don't understand that the most important part of the sale is price, price, price. Throw on top of it all the uncertainty caused by government bailouts and efforts to keep the house from being sold, and bingo, this is what you end up with.
Hey Rob Dawg --- I can't help but notice.... the listing for that property three doors down from you mentions "horse facilities" (honest to god). You know, for your pony.
query_tool writes:
Hey Rob Dawg --- I can't help but notice.... the listing for that property three doors down from you mentions "horse facilities" (honest to god). You know, for your pony.
Yes, the Dawg House is also zoned for ponies (of any color). The house 3 doors in the other direction, also for sale currently has two horses.
The whole 'hood is in a death spiral. Prices are already in some cases below a million. Countrywide finally disposed of their albatross to a flipper for a mere $755,000 (01/18/2008) having been REO'd last May $929,250 (05/01/2007).
[Sorry to post this twice - but I think this is a more appropriate thread. I have a bad cold - am suffering from pollen season - have had a tiring week - and am not working even on 4 cylinders. Hope you don't mind.]
This is kind of OT to this thread - but relevant to the blog (sorry if someone has posted this link before):
"Loan defaults in the [Palm Beach/Treasure Coast] area topped $1 billion over six months.
Many owners never made a payment."
Obviously - this is a very serious situation now - but I am also pondering the long term implications. Do you think the younger people (a generation younger than my "Boomer" generation - living through this will - years from now - act like my parents - the "Depression Generation" did (they were generally thrifty and careful about money - perhaps obsessively so - the opposite of what we saw in the real estate boom)? Will this be a long-lasting lesson that leads to a long term period of financial sobriety? It is sometimes said that grandchildren have more in common with their grandparents than their parents. Wonder if that will be true in this case.
Another OT - although perhaps practical note - I have spent some time this week opening up E*Trade Complete savings accounts (for my husband and me and my dad). Federally insured bank. Good interest rate (over 4% now) - excellent electronic transfer capabilities. For those of you wagering on the collapse of the world as we know it - it is obviously not an option. But for those of you taking a contrary point of view - it is a decent place to park money short term IMO - or to use for cash management purposes. Roby
Foreclosures are nothing new. We had 2 on our block a fair while back (not related to the current crisis). In both cases - the neighbors did what they could to take care of the outside of the houses (doing things like mowing the lawn). Of course - there are some things we couldn't do. One house (unlocked) had one of those salt water fish tanks where all the fish had died and the water was green. Disgusting.
In terms of maintenance - we live in a gated community with maintenance covenants. So when the HOA steps in to maintain property (which it does from time to time) - it simply imposes a lien on the house. And forecloses if it isn't paid. If WAMU or Wachovia or similar is the mortgage holder of record - it can scream until it's blue in the face that it really isn't the mortgage holder - but I don't think it will help one bit in front of a local judge.
Perhaps a bank can diddle around and not foreclose. But once a HOA files to foreclose on a lien - a lender must step in and assert whatever rights it has. Otherwise - the HOA can wind up buying the house for peanuts and extinguishing everyone else's rights to the house. So for those of you who live in condos or HOAs - the answer to some of these problems is to spend a few bucks more on attorneys - and force these lenders to sh** or get off the pot. At least in Florida (can't speak for other states).
Show of hands - who wants to bring back debtors' prison for people who buy $1 million houses and abandon them? Poor people can and do get citations here (in the general area) for not maintaining their lawns. Perhaps fines should be proportional to the value of the house? Roby
waitinginPNW - Of course that is the ultimate answer - lowering prices. That's how houses in foreclosure used to get sold.
Unfortunately - in some areas - prices will have to go down a lot. Here in Florida - 25% of all places sold in the last few years were sold to speculators who had no intention of living in the places they bought (and I suspect in some areas - like condos in Miami - that figure is well over 50%). Roby
Unfortunately, the US doesn't have a coherent national housing policy or planning body that addresses population growth, industry, natural resources, and infrastructure.
I dont' see why adverse possession would not be a useful tool in this case. Just move in, put the utilities in your name, if the previous owner does nothing for seven years, the house is yours, if you do get kicked out, at least you had free rent for a while.
Coincidentally, prices also need to come down at least 50% in my area also to be anywhere approaching affordability.
Whodathunkit?!
Yes, there are many areas of the US that are overpriced by 50% or more.
That being the case, a few percentage points off per year are not going to cut it if we want to get the market kick-started. Fortunately, the downslide's off to a pretty nice start. And I've got a feeling it's going to accelerate soon.
People who suggest that unoccupied houses should be discount-rented or "loaned" to the homeless have probably never had rental property or been landlords. A negligent tenant can ruin a property's value much faster and more severely than unoccupied neglect.
This is not to say that the homeless shouldn't be given assistance by the state. My politics are middle left-of-centre (and that's Canadian left-of-centre), but putting the homeless in middle-class homes in middle-class neighbourhoods won't do anyone any good. Low renters are just as risky.
I think the only solution here is to draft or enforce laws that obligate unoccupited property title-holders to pay for appropriate house property maintenance services.
With food prices going up neighbors should use the yards of empty homes for growing vegetables. If the property is big enough they can use it for livestock. It is wrong to let good property go to waste -- use it or lose it I say.
Ok, here's a wild idea. Why not give the home"less" an "adopt a home". The neighbors will certainly watch them carefully and given a chance, well wouldn't it be kinda nice to just give them a chance. House sitting free of charge - not a bad business model, and progressive to boot.
[bank[ filed a foreclosure action on
Feb. 7, 2007, 54 weeks ago. The
owners moved out right around that
time. And then [bank] did ...
nothing. The last court action was
filing the lis pendens. [bank]
hasn't requested any hearings since
then. They never formally took
possession. They have never tried to
sell it. They never put it up for
auction.
Technically, the borrower is still
the owner. [bank] knows that the
owner has vacated and moved three
time zones away. They just don't
care.
Property tax laws vary from state to state, but in my state the neighbor can go to the county clerk's office and check if the property taxes are being paid. If, as I suspect, not, the neighbor can then buy the taxes at a tax sale or "over the counter" if no one bought them at the last sale. That starts a clock during which time the deedholder or lienholder must either redeem the {taxes + penalties + bonus to tax buyer} or else ownership transfers to the tax buyer. That typically gets someone's attention at the lienholder.
they're behind the curve
out detroit way neighbors just started burning down crackhouses and other abondoned properties.
anyway i'm glad that my neighboorhood as only a few pools.
the signs are showing 'winterized' in the window now.
how about adopt a banker instead?
OMG.
"Adopt a home"?
What next?
"Adopt an unemployed realtor?"
Good God, man!
Sounds like we're going to need an advocacy group for the houses, maybe the homeless advocacy groups could take this on, too. Or perhaps it might be a conflict of interest there.
Maybe they should start a market for vacant home adoption. The owners of a vacant homes has to buy adoption or otherwise maintain the homes themselves.
Property tax can be increased for homes that are vacant and not maintained, and can unpaid property taxes be a cause of foreclosure (by the city to retrieve the taxes owed)?
test
Ah yes, now not only does the bank own "your" home without having any responsibilities, you are supposed to "help" the same banker by taking care of a home he owns but will take no responsibility for. Sounds like a great deal to me! Sign me up right now!
Aside from "adopting" the vacant home, what is the long term solution to a property where there is no identifiable owner? Are municipalties able to sieze properties when they can't find the owner? What if there is an outstanding mortgage as well, and the lender refuses to foreclose? Does this create a permanent lien that can never be undone?
A question of even greater import these days is what can home-owners do when it is unclear who owns their mortgage (i.e. because there is no clear documentation indicating a legal assignee)? Can borrowers just get the courts to vacate their mortgage if the lender can't demonstrate legal ownership of the mortgage?
Heck, how can you even sell the house and pay off the mortgage if there is no legal holder of the mortgage note?
Heh, coming soon to an abandoned house near you...prison chain gangs being driven around to clean them up weekly/monthly.
I wonder if you can deduct expenses from taking care of another home thats not yours. If you could, maybe it would spur people to take care of other homes more often. I doubt one might be able to do that.
We have one next door that's been empty about one and a half years. High school students use it as a thoroughfare, and leave scads of trash behind. We pick it up, and do other minor things, but it is a drag.
Lawmakers eye home-buyer tax credit to move inventory - MarketWatch
This time around, the builders are angling for a $10,000 credit [for 3 years], maintaining that on a price-adjusted basis, that amount is equal to the 1975 credit.
It will be intersting if buyers start waiting for the law to be passed before they buy. You don't want to be cut out of such a deal.
Maybe they could work out a program to rent these houses out for a nominal fee and short-term lease to homeless families?
Just a thought...potential problems abound but handled right, it could kill two birds with one stone.
Nah...makes too much sense.
But it bothers the hell out of me to see all those homes deteriorating and dragging the whole neighborhood down with so many decent people homeless.
Maybe we could start a spay and neuter program for these houses so we don't have to worry about them multiplying like cats and dogs.
Riiiight. Your taxes are going up, your services are going down. Heck, if you are in parts of Los Angeles you are about to be billed for replacing the dangerous unmaintained sidewalks that the city ran across your property despite your fighting against them for decades. And now it is time to show community solidarity? The same "community" that bowed to the most obscene development deals that have destroyed the character of your community. The people being asked now to help have been getting screwed by these same municipalites for years and it is time to discover that there's a price to pay for ignoring the popular will.
Oh, put your pitch fork down Robert.
Why would anyone do that for free?
The owner needs to get billed and fined on top by local governments.
If there is no owner then county should immediatly auction the home off or bulldoze it down.
It says something profound about America that our leaders call on us to adopt a "home" but never called on us to adopt a "homeless".
This sad concept that we are a consumerist society, that we, the people, are a herd of consumers has infected our society. It's ultimate expression lies in the intense house fixation that most people suffer.
George Carlin said that a house is just a big pile of stuff with a lid on it. So true today and so sad.
I wish more Americans could get a better grip on the difference between objects and people, between houses and community.
"you are supposed to "help" the same banker by taking care of a home he owns but will take no responsibility for"
pbpcbs | 02.22.08 - 2:14 pm
CR probably has more reasonable expectations of banks than that, so decided to take action. Whether its from his personal experience with banks, or his innate intelligence I can't say. I'd love to hear his answer.
excerpt from Market watch story on tax credit for housing stimulus package.
"Whether the renewed interest in a tax credit is a result of some hard-nosed lobbying on the part home builders is anybody's guess. But earlier this month at its annual convention in Orlando, Fla., the National Association of Home Builders took the unprecedented step of suspending all political contributions to federal candidates and their political action committees."
Hmnnnn...
ruh roh
TLT being sold off despite a down stock mkt. trouble.
I'm surprised people needed to be told this.
Too bad SC Johnson and Woodstream Corp. are privately held.
Also too bad the CME doesn't offer mosquito futures.
wrt the market story about a $10,000 credit...
If history is any guide, when one segment of the econmy causes a problem across the general economy, it isn't wise to try and prop up the failing part of the economy. It would be far better to focus on a new engine of growth for the economy to replace housing.
The housing problem has one solution. Let the prices drop to a point where houses are affordable. If the goverment is going to invest in the US economy, instead of housing stimulus packages, they should invest in alternative energy or something that will produce jobs the economy actually needs.
Hell, I'd be willing to adopt a house. And give it love and companionship if they'd let me install some close personal friends who might pay me rent.
The city or other local government has a tax lien which beats the bank's mortgage lien -- this is why careful banks have the mortgagor pay monthly into an escrow from which the bank then pays the taxes.
As I understand the process the government does not actually foreclose the tax lien. What they do is sell it at auction so that they get their money up front. The auction price is the amount of the lien, and the bidding is on how low an interest rate the bidder is willing to charge the mortgagor while he waits for his money and trys to collect.
Usually, the buyer of the tax lien will work out a payment plan with the owner -- if there is one available -- but if the lien holder hasn't been able to collect in (usually) two years, then he can foreclose and end up owning the property free of the bank's mortgage lien.
The problem in the abandoned house case is, of course, the two year delay even after the city gets around to auctioning the tax lien.
If the bank pays locals to take care of the house, is that in effect negative rent?
Perhaps the city could be paying people to do this? I have a jobless friend in L.A. who could really really use some work!
get ready boys. last 1 1/2 hr will surely bring some action. i say down given what financials are doin.
There's nothing new in this. There have been blocks of abandoned houses in virtually every small and large city in the US for 30 years or more. Go abroad and come back to the US and it's one of the first things you notice. Now that's it's showing up in middle-class neighbourhoods, it's news.
aotc
bwahahahaha.
idoc
??
One of the houses in my neighborhood (in Denver) had been vacant for so long that a tree had grown up, rooted in a gap between the foundation and front porch slab. The tree blocked the front door and grew so large that it was about 1.5" in diameter and poked out a hole in the roofing between the porch and house. There were a couple other vacant houses that the owners wanted to sell, not rent. The asking price for 50 year old houses is in the mid 200s, which is barking mad insane.
Sure, I'd like to rent one of them, as I'd like a back yard to grow some fruit and veggies. And some of these streets have some wild character. One in particular, the folks who own dogs on that street all own dachshunds and the shared fence lines they have are about 3 feet high, because that's more than enough for their dogs.
Vacant homes are a negative externality for the neighbors...
Wouldn't "..are an eyesore for the..." work just as well. Or are you being baroque for some occult reason?
The tree blocked the front door and grew so large that it was about 1.5" in diameter
Surely you mean 1.5' or 18"? Or is this some reference to the movie Spinal Tap and the Stonehenge bit? One and a half inches wouldn't make a good blockage or a good treehouse.
How about a "Section 8 Secure" program?
In the 1970's in England, where there was at the same time a tight housing market and many properties sitting empty and unused, then 'squatting' was born. People would 'legally' enter an unused home, perhaps change the locks in the house, and reside there. It was not a criminal offence, they could only be evicted after the owner had procured court documents ordering their eviction. Provided they had done no damage or stolen anything, no other action than eviction could be taken.
This was due to some old loophole in the law, I believe altered by Parliament. So I ask, do such loopholes exist here in the U.S.?
I should add there was some sympathy for the squatters, people felt houses should not be left empty while there was a housing shortage.
DaveinSanDiego
A fine line between renting and adopting, but would yah rather have a low income renter or a bando.
This is all about market efficiency, you either adapt and write down losses and get real, or hang in there with greed as your motive and then play this game of waiting for more losses. It will take time to grind people down, so why not be proactive now?
Oh, put your pitch fork down Robert.
Why? you passing out something better?
I honestly believe that civil disobedience is the inevitable consequence of the dimunition of property rights and distortions in land use regulation.
The house next to me is empty. It is a viper's nest of zoning and engineering code violations. This McStrosity is 4900 sf "replacing" the previous 1400 sf home. I'm expected to go and skim leaves from the unpermitted pool so that what? The owner can continue to drive his Lotus Esprit V8? The owner can continue to build a 10,000 sf house two miles away?
My neighbors stopped renting out the summer cabin next to me after the renters were more trouble than the rent was worth. I clean the leaves and tree branches up, scrub it down a bit; less trouble than the renters were and far less hassle than dealing with squatters would be. Seems pretty obvious that it is worth doing, takes maybe two hours a month.
There seems to be an attempt to live as solitary islands, with no connection or mutual assistance with neighbors and community. Seems far better to me to just do it than to waste the time whining about it and not have it done.
10 y UST getting sold off.
How about the towns hire unemployed and welfare recipients to take care of the vacant homes and then pass on the bill as a tax lien (1st position) to the banks who now own the properties but won't take care of them.
Inch and half diameter. Sure it wasn't tree-house grade, but it blocked/obstructed the front door, so anyone riding down the street (it was also on a bus route until last year) could see clearly that it was vacant. I think it was a maple, and to get that size (about 20 feet tall), it had to have grown unattended for something near 10 years.
I see two other possibilities. Either let the property decay then complain and have the city condemn and demolish the house or talk to an attorney to see what actions would amount to constructive possession. Then you care and use the property in a constructive possession way for the required period then sue to take it from the "missing" owner after a period of time.
If the bank or "owner" isn't willing to look after the property, they shouldn't expect the neighbors to tolerate it without some actions being taken.
Dave in SD - we have something called "adverse possession". But it's much more complicated.
Maybe they could work out a program to rent these houses out for a nominal fee and short-term lease to homeless families?
This was just the idea I proposed on this very forum yesterday.
Section 8. Or some other program. There can be minimum qualifications so that you don't get Crackhead King and his loyal subjects moving in and scaring the neighbors.
But with all these empty homes causing problems, and all the newly unemployed realtors, builders, etc., with families, this could be an excellent opportunity for a country to learn a lesson in charity and good will. Morale, a big issue these days, would also be improved.
Renters could be required to upkeep the properties, and they could be evicted quickly - 30 days - should problems arise.
Outsider-For a start there are thousands of Katrina evacuees still living in toxic FEMA trailers.
Maybe we could put some of these homes on wheels and push them on down.
I have an even better idea: how about the bank sells the vacant house for a reasonable price so we can actually buy the stupid place and live there?!
I am seeing some sort of insane world where: foreclosure dupes are either homeless or renting sleazy apartments, honest savers are somehow forced into "adopting" vacant homes, and the vacant houses sit - unable to be bought by the savers - because the banks refuse to lower the prices to something affordable?
It's nuts - why should we "adopt" somebody else's screw-up? Just lower the price already and we'll start selling houses to people who can afford them!
Maybe we need warrents for caring for vacant houses that honest savers can use to eventually buy the house, or some such thing. No doubt we can then secure these loans with collateral, such as the weeds pulled out of the lawn of the vacant house... or something... argh!
In my upscale tract in So.Cal. there are 8-10 REO's. The HOA says that there are 23k in past due dues. So not to mention the eyesore that these are becoming, now we are running a deficit in the HOA budget. As ususal the responsible take care of the dopes.
I have an even better idea: how about the bank sells the vacant house for a reasonable price so we can actually buy the stupid place and live there?!
Won't someone think of the lawyers?
girlbear,
I may be mistaken, but don't HOAs have power to foreclose a home for HOA fees? If so, just threaten the banks to pay HOA fees or otherwise the HOA will initiate foreclosures to take the homes away from the banks and sell them to cover HOA fees overdue. Can anyone confirm that?
I'll know it's serious when Sally Struthers does her schtick.
And when the Indians start telling their kids "be thankful for your humble dwelling. There are children in America..."
Won't someone think of the lawyers?
I thought of that but they don't stack near as well as cord wood and don't burn worth a darn.
I've lost my piece of the pie...
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This poor run down decrepit shack is but three doors away from me. Unoccupied, unloved. The tragedy is unbearable, please what can I do to help? Sold 08/03/2005: $2,300,000 asking $2,389,000 now. These people are looking to lose... ummm well... Okay, they aren't really "losing" when you subtract out OER but well they aren't getting fabulous returns on their investment. Can someone take up a collection of unused yacht wax perhaps?
I bring up this and my other neighbors because I'm getting tired of this being a housing crisis. There won't be 'Obamatowns like there were Hoovervilles 75 years ago. The five houses within 200 yards of me currently offered for sale at a combined $13 million have zero children 6 adults total. Wipe them away and nobody is on the streets or so much as looking for a subsidized rental yet they represent monetarily more than 50 "typical" national houses.
Maybe they can plant tulips.
well said, Pondering, well said. If the banks aren't willing to reduce the price to an affordable level, then they are skirting their obligation as a homeowner (which they are) by letting the yard grow wild, leaving doors wide open, tolerating trespassing, allowing trash to accumulate, watching their pools turn green and fester with mosquitoes. There are nuisance laws in many areas that can and often are enforced by concerned neighbors.
Rob, Your neighbors may be to old and decrepit to carry pitch forks. Best they carry the torches.
I have an even better idea: how about the bank sells the vacant house for a reasonable price so we can actually buy the stupid place and live there?!
If the banks aren't willing to reduce the price to an affordable level, then they are skirting their obligation as a homeowner (which they are) by letting the yard grow wild...
Time for a bit of enlightenment. Let me tell you the story of the house down the street from me. Wells Fargo filed a foreclosure action on Feb. 7, 2007, 54 weeks ago. The owners moved out right around that time. And then Wells Fargo did ... nothing. The last court action was filing the lis pendens. Wells Fargo hasn't requested any hearings since then. They never formally took possession. They have never tried to sell it. They never put it up for auction.
Technically, the borrower is still the owner. Wells knows that the owner has vacated and moved three time zones away. They just don't care.
The next-door neighbors bitched and moaned but didn't mow the lawn or trim the shrubs. (When the rental house next door to me was vacant for a year, I did those things, even though the owners live 60 miles away and could have had it taken care of.) Finally they got the HOA to hire a gardener to do basic yardwork twice a month. The HOA probably will never get its money back.
The point is: I'm not sure you can force the bank to formally take possession, or to take care of the house. That way, they don't have to recognize the loss -- they can put off that day of reckoning.
How about adopting a vacant congressman's cranium???
The way that it's SUPPOSED to work is that the house gets foreclosed upon, the house gets sold at the "market clearing" price, the new owner moves in and takes care of the house.
The PROBLEM is that the market clearing price is not being reached, because unrealistic sellers don't understand that the most important part of the sale is price, price, price. Throw on top of it all the uncertainty caused by government bailouts and efforts to keep the house from being sold, and bingo, this is what you end up with.
RH said: "How about adopting a vacant congressman's cranium???"
So many from which to choose....
I think of all those working hours, materials, land and ilussions wasted...
depressing
we have a probable vacant house on my block.
we have been shoveling and dealing with the mail the last few months.
this summer I s'pose we'll do mild lawn maintenance... because it's a great house and a great block.
in Minneapolis there are no "subdivision" or HOA's that I know of (except for maybe condo towers, etc)
only in the suburbs do we have subdevelopments.
so most blocks are like mine: a bunch of homeowners who share a block and share a street/alleyway.
if we let that house go to pot, it will ruin the look/feel of our VERY CLOSE neighborhood.
luckily, we have 5 different houses helping, so it's not that bad...
Hey Rob Dawg --- I can't help but notice.... the listing for that property three doors down from you mentions "horse facilities" (honest to god). You know, for your pony.
query_tool writes:
Hey Rob Dawg --- I can't help but notice.... the listing for that property three doors down from you mentions "horse facilities" (honest to god). You know, for your pony.
Yes, the Dawg House is also zoned for ponies (of any color). The house 3 doors in the other direction, also for sale currently has two horses.
The whole 'hood is in a death spiral. Prices are already in some cases below a million. Countrywide finally disposed of their albatross to a flipper for a mere $755,000 (01/18/2008) having been REO'd last May $929,250 (05/01/2007).
[Sorry to post this twice - but I think this is a more appropriate thread. I have a bad cold - am suffering from pollen season - have had a tiring week - and am not working even on 4 cylinders. Hope you don't mind.]
This is kind of OT to this thread - but relevant to the blog (sorry if someone has posted this link before):
"Loan defaults in the [Palm Beach/Treasure Coast] area topped $1 billion over six months.
Many owners never made a payment."
West Palm Beach breaking news, headlines & weather | The Palm Beach Post new..._MAIN_1014.html
Obviously - this is a very serious situation now - but I am also pondering the long term implications. Do you think the younger people (a generation younger than my "Boomer" generation - living through this will - years from now - act like my parents - the "Depression Generation" did (they were generally thrifty and careful about money - perhaps obsessively so - the opposite of what we saw in the real estate boom)? Will this be a long-lasting lesson that leads to a long term period of financial sobriety? It is sometimes said that grandchildren have more in common with their grandparents than their parents. Wonder if that will be true in this case.
Another OT - although perhaps practical note - I have spent some time this week opening up E*Trade Complete savings accounts (for my husband and me and my dad). Federally insured bank. Good interest rate (over 4% now) - excellent electronic transfer capabilities. For those of you wagering on the collapse of the world as we know it - it is obviously not an option. But for those of you taking a contrary point of view - it is a decent place to park money short term IMO - or to use for cash management purposes. Roby
Here's an idea whose time has come:
How about LOWER THE PRICE to where somebody will actually BUY the place?
The concept here is that the new owner will pay taxes and do upkeep while simultaneously LIVING IN THE HOUSE!!!!
With this plan, neighbors not only get a cared-for property next door , they also get ACTUAL, LIVE NEIGHBORS!!!!
And the city gets to collect property taxes!!!
We used to do this in the US and it worked pretty well.
All in all, a better idea than abandoned homes being left to the sometime care of people on the block.
We do have people who will buy homes to live in. But the mania/sickness of people paying stupid prices is over.
Foreclosures are nothing new. We had 2 on our block a fair while back (not related to the current crisis). In both cases - the neighbors did what they could to take care of the outside of the houses (doing things like mowing the lawn). Of course - there are some things we couldn't do. One house (unlocked) had one of those salt water fish tanks where all the fish had died and the water was green. Disgusting.
In terms of maintenance - we live in a gated community with maintenance covenants. So when the HOA steps in to maintain property (which it does from time to time) - it simply imposes a lien on the house. And forecloses if it isn't paid. If WAMU or Wachovia or similar is the mortgage holder of record - it can scream until it's blue in the face that it really isn't the mortgage holder - but I don't think it will help one bit in front of a local judge.
Perhaps a bank can diddle around and not foreclose. But once a HOA files to foreclose on a lien - a lender must step in and assert whatever rights it has. Otherwise - the HOA can wind up buying the house for peanuts and extinguishing everyone else's rights to the house. So for those of you who live in condos or HOAs - the answer to some of these problems is to spend a few bucks more on attorneys - and force these lenders to sh** or get off the pot. At least in Florida (can't speak for other states).
Show of hands - who wants to bring back debtors' prison for people who buy $1 million houses and abandon them? Poor people can and do get citations here (in the general area) for not maintaining their lawns. Perhaps fines should be proportional to the value of the house? Roby
waitinginPNW - Of course that is the ultimate answer - lowering prices. That's how houses in foreclosure used to get sold.
Unfortunately - in some areas - prices will have to go down a lot. Here in Florida - 25% of all places sold in the last few years were sold to speculators who had no intention of living in the places they bought (and I suspect in some areas - like condos in Miami - that figure is well over 50%). Roby
UK policy on empty homes from a government agency. Also, there is an Empty Homes Agency to encourage reuse and revitalization.
Unfortunately, the US doesn't have a coherent national housing policy or planning body that addresses population growth, industry, natural resources, and infrastructure.
I dont' see why adverse possession would not be a useful tool in this case. Just move in, put the utilities in your name, if the previous owner does nothing for seven years, the house is yours, if you do get kicked out, at least you had free rent for a while.
Robyn-
Coincidentally, prices also need to come down at least 50% in my area also to be anywhere approaching affordability.
Whodathunkit?!
Yes, there are many areas of the US that are overpriced by 50% or more.
That being the case, a few percentage points off per year are not going to cut it if we want to get the market kick-started. Fortunately, the downslide's off to a pretty nice start. And I've got a feeling it's going to accelerate soon.
People who suggest that unoccupied houses should be discount-rented or "loaned" to the homeless have probably never had rental property or been landlords. A negligent tenant can ruin a property's value much faster and more severely than unoccupied neglect.
This is not to say that the homeless shouldn't be given assistance by the state. My politics are middle left-of-centre (and that's Canadian left-of-centre), but putting the homeless in middle-class homes in middle-class neighbourhoods won't do anyone any good. Low renters are just as risky.
I think the only solution here is to draft or enforce laws that obligate unoccupited property title-holders to pay for appropriate house property maintenance services.
so glad you have a CEO President with a MBA to manage the crisis....
With food prices going up neighbors should use the yards of empty homes for growing vegetables. If the property is big enough they can use it for livestock. It is wrong to let good property go to waste -- use it or lose it I say.
Ok, here's a wild idea. Why not give the home"less" an "adopt a home". The neighbors will certainly watch them carefully and given a chance, well wouldn't it be kinda nice to just give them a chance. House sitting free of charge - not a bad business model, and progressive to boot.
Food for thought. Bb
Property tax laws vary from state to state, but in my state the neighbor can go to the county clerk's office and check if the property taxes are being paid. If, as I suspect, not, the neighbor can then buy the taxes at a tax sale or "over the counter" if no one bought them at the last sale. That starts a clock during which time the deedholder or lienholder must either redeem the {taxes + penalties + bonus to tax buyer} or else ownership transfers to the tax buyer. That typically gets someone's attention at the lienholder.
Cranky