Ya, that's part 1. The tricky part is what number to put on the balance sheet once you move it. Mark to reality, or fantasy land, or is it just not knowable yet? Should be interesting.
Hey, it hasn't been done yet. Not til 4:01pm Friday afternoon. Probably with another 10% workforce cut and another 10 billion from the Middle East at 11.5% interest...
jg, a new CEO gets about 6 months to blame the problems on his predecessor. Then the honeymoon is over. Pandit probably saw huge losses coming - why wait? Blame them on Prince and move on.
Fine, my link didnt work, search businesswire.com for Citigroup and you will find it.
Here is the release:
"NEW YORK--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Citi announced today that it has committed to provide a support facility that will resolve uncertainties regarding senior debt repayment currently facing the Citi-advised Structured Investment Vehicles (SIVs).
This action is a response to the recently announced ratings review for possible downgrade by Moodys and S&P of the outstanding senior debt of the SIVs, and the continued reduction of liquidity in the SIV related asset-backed commercial paper and medium-term note markets. These markets are the traditional funding sources for the SIVs. Citis actions today are designed to support the current ratings of the SIVs senior debt and to allow the SIVs to continue to pursue their current orderly asset reduction plan. As a result of this commitment, Citi will consolidate the SIVs assets and liabilities onto its balance sheet under applicable accounting rules.
Several key factors further contributed to Citis decision to make this commitment:
The SIVs continue to successfully pursue alternative funding strategies, primarily asset reductions, to meet maturing debt obligations. The SIV assets (net of cash and cash equivalents) have been reduced from $87 billion in August 2007 to $49 billion currently, while maintaining the overall high credit quality of the portfolio. Citi expects orderly asset reductions will be sufficient to meet liquidity requirements through the end of 2008, which currently total $35 billion. Consequently, Citi expects little or no funding requirement from the facility.
As assets continue to be sold, Citis risk exposure, and the capital ratio impact from consolidation, will be reduced accordingly.
Given the high credit quality of the SIV assets, Citis credit exposure under its commitment is substantially limited. Approximately 54% of the SIV assets are rated triple-A and 43% double-A by Moodys, with no direct exposure to sub-prime assets and immaterial indirect sub-prime exposure of $51 million. In addition, the junior notes, which have a current market value of $2.5 billion, are in the first loss position.
Taking into account this commitment, Citi still expects to return to its targeted capital ratios by the end of the second quarter of 2008. Based on September 30, 2007 capital ratio disclosures and applying the current asset levels in the SIVs, the estimated impact of this action would have been approximately 16 basis point decline in the Tier 1 capital ratio and approximately 12 basis point decline in the TCE/RWMA ratio.
Our team has made great progress managing the SIVs in a very difficult environment. After considering a full range of funding options, this commitment is the best outcome for Citi and the SIVs, said Vikram Pandit, Citis Chief Executive Officer.
The terms of this committed facility will be finalized in early 2008 and will reflect market te
The commitment is independent of the Master Liquidity Enhancement Conduit (M-LEC). Citi continues to support the formation of the M-LEC, which is an initiative that involves Citi and other financial institutions.
Attached are additional fact sheets regarding the SIVs and the committed support facility.
Citi, the leading global financial services company, has some 200 million customer accounts and does business in more than 100 countries, providing consumers, corporations, governments and institutions with a broad range of financial products and services, including consumer banking and credit, corporate and investment banking, securities brokerage, and wealth management. Citis major brand names include Citibank, CitiFinancial, Primerica, Smith Barney and Banamex. Additional information may be found at Citi - Home or citi.com
Certain statements in this document are "forward-looking statements" within the meaning of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act. These statements are based on management's current expectations and are subject to uncertainty and changes in circumstances. Actual results may differ materially from those included in these statements due to a variety of factors. More information about these factors is contained in Citigroup's filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
ADDITIONAL FACTS ON THE CITI-ADVISED SIVs
Profile of the SIV assets and liabilities as of December 12, 2007:
Average Credit Quality (1,2)
Average Asset Mix Aaa Aa A
Financial Institutions Debt 60% 14% 43% 3%
Sovereign Debt 1% 1%
Structured Finance:
MBS Non-U.S. residential 12% 12%
CBOs, CLOs, CDOs 6 6
MBS U.S. residential 7 7
CMBS 3 3
Student loans 5 5
Credit cards 5 5
Other 1 1
Total Structured Finance 39% 39%
Total Assets 100% 54% 43% 3%
The weighted average maturity of the assets is 3.7 years
(1) Based on Moodys ratings.
(2) The SIVs have no direct exposure to U.S. sub-prime assets and have approximately $51 million of indirect exposure to sub-prime assets through CDOs which are AAA rated and carry credit enhancements.
Amount Outstanding Average Rating Average Maturity
Commercial Paper $10B A-1+/P-1 2.4 months
Medium Term Notes 48B AAA/Aaa 10.1 months
OTHER INFORMATION
Through asset reductions, the SIVs have partially repaid the previously disclosed $10 billion commitment to purchase commercial paper. As a result, Citi now holds $7.2 billion of commercial paper issued by the SIVs as of December 12, 2007. Citi expects the SIVs to fully repay the commercial paper at or before the last maturity date in mid-March 2008. Following the final maturity date, the new facility is expected to be the sole commitment by Citi to the SIVs.
The Citi-advised SIVs
Um, ah, oh.
Financial institution debt 60%.
Isn't that a lovely high concentration. Hmmmmm.
Whose debt?
Commercial Paper $10B A-1+/P-1 2.4 months- wow in 3 months they hope to be out of this- good luck!!!
Medium Term Notes 48B AAA/Aaa 10.1 months 10 months for this?
Well if they get any support from the MLEC it'll be that much less pressure on their balance sheet wouldn't it? It would also give more time to sell the assets.
what Basel II risk level do you apply to the SIV assets? Were these already accounted for at 100% credit conversion factor, i.e. as if they were on balance sheet?
Caring, loving friend of fraudulent bankers, died suddenly last night of natural causes. Mr. SIV, the illegitimate child of Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson, lived short, yet spirited life. His most noted accomplishments were the painful and successful squeezing of short sellers, and perhaps his crowning achievement, to delay the discovery of faultily priced MBS.
I am not so for sure about the ramifications of this news. In today's bizarro world, I bet this is seen as great news and the market will skyrocket tomorrow. It will be spun in such a way that we are finally getting all this behind us. I think the pain will come once these assets have to be marked down.
perhaps the Super SIV did it's duty... bought time for Citi to replace Prince and also to unload the most dangerous of assets?
"The SIV assets (net of cash and cash equivalents) have been reduced from $87 billion in August 2007 to $49 billion currently, while maintaining the overall high credit quality of the portfolio."
With all three of the recent rescue proposals (M-LEC, Hope Now and TAF) there sure seems to be a lot of fast-paced improvisation going on. And the players don't all seem to be playing from the same score. This sounds more like Ornette Coleman than Duke Ellington. If this were music I'd be fine with that, but this ain't music, and I'm starting to get a little worried. Can somebody play me a ballad?
I read that Citi is going to use the 40ik money of their remaining employees as the capital infusion it needs now that this stuff is coming onto the balance sheet. I'm kidding!
Still, this will be spun as positive early tomorrow with a slow bleed from about 11am into the close. Will we make to the end of the year after all?
Just last week Pandit told the CNBC anchoress that the dividend would be maintained. I really do not see how they can do that ... Or rather, I do not see how they can do that in any way that is better for shareholders than simply cutting the dividend.
But it sounds like their A-Rab masters are hell bent against a dividend cut, so maybe some more oil money is poised to come home and take bite out of the big C.
AllenM --
How can any sane individual buy a homebuilder at this point in time?
Actually, now is exactly the right time to buy a homebuilder, if you can find the right one to buy. Whoever survives this carnage will be in a perfect position to acquire their competitors' assets at absolute fire sale prices. The trick is to identify who that will be, and to avoid whoever is going bankrupt.
The time to invest in a sector is precisely when everyone "knows" you would have to be crazy to invest in that sector. We are very close to that point for the homebuilders, IMO.
I myself am very close to pulling the trigger on MDC. I will probably wait until the first major goes BK...
Plus Citi gets to borrow money at the auction on Monday.
Oooo, good point. What are the odds the timing here is not coincidence, and the reason to bring these SIV assets on-balance-sheet is to use them as collateral at the TAF?
Nah, too conspiracy-ish. So much going on all at once making me see patterns in the noise.
emo - "How can any sane individual buy a homebuilder at this point in time?
Actually, now is exactly the right time to buy a homebuilder, if you can find the right one to buy."
Are you serious. How does four or five years of ARM resets, foreclosures, and rising inventory not keep knocking down EVERY home builder for the next several years. Those homebuilders are no where near bottoming -- even the 'good' ones.
< jg, a new CEO gets about 6 months to blame the problems on his predecessor. Then the honeymoon is over. Pandit probably saw huge losses coming - why wait? Blame them on Prince and move on.>
You say the "honeymoon" is over in six months?
I'll bet it's "GAME OVER FOR CITIGROUP" in six months...
That SIV is gonna kill the DIV
as in C's dividend. Buh bye.
I think you'll hear about significant cost cutting measures - which means a large RIF - coupled with a dividend cut. Look for Citi to start offering higher rates on 3 month, 6 month, 1 yr CD's and savings accounts a la CFC. in an attempt to grow cash on hand.
CR nailed it - Pandits got a 6 month honeymoon - he's going to clean house and blame it on the dancing guy.
"CR nailed it - Pandits got a 6 month honeymoon - he's going to clean house and blame it on the dancing guy."
But it's so sad that that should mean anything at all. Why should blame have any effect on what the company should or shouldn't do? It's sad if such important decisions at such a large and powerful company are being made based on 'blame' or a 6 month 'honeymoon'.
Obviously it's all in the details. How did they get from $87b to $49b, how good are the remaining $49b, and I assume they also have $49 billion in new liabilities.
I'm betting C will go up on the news. I'm sure that new management wants to throw in the kitchen sink, but there isn't enough capital.
1) CPI number will be benign, possibly very benign. The clowns at the BLS are working overtime this week engineering the CPI numbers. The prices of 24" LCD monitors just dropped again, and 24" LCD monitors are being overweighted for this month's spin, because it has transpired that consumers shop for one every month.
2) The Dow skyrocket at least 300 points on the news, and the S&P goes up at least 2%, in anticipation of more rate cuts at the fed.
It is amazing how things run in rythm with C. First Basel II, then the anon borrowers, then the SIV on the books.
The new guy will take all the hits now, make big mgmt changes, probably sell some buz areas, cancel the dividend. And, in three years all looks great 'cause they are still in business and dividend returns.
I'm with AllenM:
"Um, ah, oh.
Financial institution debt 60%.
Isn't that a lovely high concentration. Hmmmmm."
Has the music stopped and is C trying to find a vacant chair?
O/T but in line: NRK to be nationalized before yearend...In my opinion, anyway. Minyans currently drafting legislation according the FT.
My gut is telling me there are some big wobbly banks right about now and all Feds do not want to see a bank run aka NKN.
Oh please CR can we pls have another ABX chart tomorrow? Nothing better than a good cup of java on a Friday watching the finest rated poop go south
ba_lurker - given the tracking of oil prices and the cpi, there is no believable way the CPI can come in cool tomorrow. As for the Dow, prepare for a major whipsaw day. It will make yesterday look like a day in the park. And the day after tomorrow, well, that will look like a bucket of sh....
I think some folks here need to face the risk that they have become overly negative, refusing to see positive steps staring them in the face:
1) Citi cut the problem in half ($100B -> $50B) through asset sales matched with retiring CP, before they even got to this point.
2) There have not, are not now, and will not be "fire sales" of SIV assets - I'm sure Citi isn't happy with the prices they've been getting, but the stuff is moving.
3) Citi will maintain Tier 1 ratios without undue heroics. IMHO, I expect no dividend cut and one more moderate capital raising event sometime next year, and even that may not be needed depending on operating earnings next few quarters. I predict the Morgan Stanley analyst for Citi, Betsy Graseck, will look foolish in less than 3 months.
Call me a blue-sky fool, if you will, but check all those "cliff-diving" charts at Markit, first...
I think it's time for some CR/Tanta analysis of numerous recent tea leaves along the lines of "holy crap! the world may not end after all!" Those expecting the Great Depression of 2007 - 2033 may need to get their time machines to a mechanic...
Are you serious. How does four or five years of ARM resets, foreclosures, and rising inventory not keep knocking down EVERY home builder for the next several years. Those homebuilders are no where near bottoming -- even the 'good' ones.
Good point! And I bet you are the only person in the entire world to have noticed! Time to short 'em all...
Unless a company is going BK, there exists some price at which it is a good (or great) idea to buy -- no matter how bad the business is about to become.
For any particular homebuilder, you should know enough about valuation to say what that price is, given your own assumptions about ARM resets etc. Otherwise, how can you know whether the stock is "cheap" or "expensive"?
They are not all worth zero, even in the worst case.
you are correct, people are far too over-the-edge, this is due to the increase in morons with blogs.
This is very good near-term news, solely due to the realization that we are working towards measures that will ultimately lead to solutions.
That said, as discussed previously, balance sheets and the availability of credit are going to contract much further and that is not good for growth prospects.
If you have a 5 minute time horizon, crack the lemon chello, if it is longer, well, take a long nap.
Jerome Ball, you're probably right in the short term, but were you also one of those that said none of these current problems were going to occur and that all of these doom and gloomers here were overly pessimistic? How many of the professionals predicted the current mess? How many have changed the predictions now? How many predictions will get worse next month and the months after?
OK. Something I don't understand here. How could creating M-LEC and this news be both good for Citi and the market? If it's so great, why haven't they done it in the first place? Why push M-LEC?
Jerome Ball > I think C might stumble big time; but, it will not be catastrophic. More assets will have to be liquidated to preserve the ratios and any additional money as in cash would have to come from the homeland. Right now there is more risk in the collective than benefit of the whole. I think Prince had a good strat. but the failure to execute and, well lets say non-harmoious dis-functional internal relationships of the underlying groups had its challenges. The rule is to buy and conquer not buy and blend. The exercise now is to know what to fold. In this the Board may have made a good choice (imho).
So does Citi go bye bye before CW & WM? Is any of the gambling world putting numbers up yet? There could be more money in this game than WS in the future.
jo6pac
poszi...come on. You must have known that MLEC was a PR stunt to buy time for today's announcement (or one similar). Did it EVER make any sense? No one was able to explain how it would even work.
poszi, you're talking as if things actually made sense in this market! This volitility is all about PERCEPTION of the immediate news -- none of it is about reality or long term investments, etc., or else it wouldn't be so volitile.
I think tomorrow's market reaction will very much depend on what type of news we get on the financing front. Citi already sold a good chunk, and looks like it must have someone waiting in the wings to break the good side of the news (the $$$ - infusion baby yeh!!!!) This will play first, then we'll get the $ call. Just like Ben and the boys - cut 25 bp, test reaction, then no likey-like, release the hounds (coordinated useless Central Bank policy). All financial actions must have their corresponding PR wingman along for the ride.
I'm feeling the yen breaking away from the year-long inverse relationship with speculative stocks. It's not happening like I thought, and I can't figure it out, but I'm not going to fight it. Something else is crushing the yen besides carry.
At the same time, I'm feeling structural weakness in emerging markets. Today, I sold all my yen (FXY) and shorted emerging (EUM). I don't feel confident enough yet to ultra short emerging markets. But I'm hoping to at some point. I think ulta short emerging and China will be the best investment idea for all of 2008.
GaudiaRay and Jerome - this is good news only to the extent you believe that everyone else can bring these #s to the balance sheet, AND that the numbers are believable, AND that it helps unfreeze the markets.
Problem 1 with that is that even if credit loosens a bit, it's not loosening for the ridiculous loans lent in the Res housing market the past few years, so collateral is going to be worth quite possibly a great deal less than people think.
Also, is there enough $ floating around to recapitalize the various idiots out there that have been unwilling to bring this stuff into the light? Not so sure how that works out.
Next, does the fact that Citi does it materially change things? I mean, all of the sudden are we going to see everyone else step up to the plate? Beats me.
Still lots of unknowns and the longer the ugliness of this remains in the dark, the worse things get in terms of the impact on investment.
Hmm, so basically the Super SIV's sole purpose was to fool the markets into a sense of false complacency? We're just supposed to forget the 300 point rally in the Dow that resulted from the announcement?
If the CB applauds this decision, why don't they encourage EVERYONE to mark-to-market EVERY bad loan and debt out there instead of coming up with ways to prevent that very thing?
All three companies clearly have financial issues. But at Countrywide, I think it's deeper.
The signs are starting to point to systematic fraud at Countrywide that might result in legal problems and regulatory penalties, maybe some jail time and permanent loss of reputation. I want to say...similar to Worldcom or Global Crossing. But not sure yet. I'm just getting vibes that Countrywide won't survive this.
The millions/billions bit is getting me to glaze over faster than a hot Holiday Rum Punch. There are 5 billion shares of Citigroup each worth $31. Think of this as $10/share rather $49 billion.
Me- If the CB applauds this decision, why don't they encourage EVERYONE to mark-to-market EVERY bad loan and debt out there instead of coming up with ways to prevent that very thing?
In the end, they're all going to do it because they'll have to. Sooner, however, would be better than later.
Hopefully, this Citi decision will everyone else to get off their dead asses and do it.
This is a good move for the long term but it will hurt in the short term. Citi's gonna have to raise more capital (at lower prices) and cut the dividend. But, for the long term, this is probably a good move because it says that Citi will stand behind its poop. Also, as CR noted, Pandit can take the losses and blame it on prince for a while. Why not just clean house and get a fresh start? Makes sense to me. But it's gonna be painful for current shareholders for a while.
O/T While we consider the future of C, lets watch Insurers...Insurers are now insuring there insurance to pass along risk (nothing against reinsurance but what the heck is at risk?):
"Ambac Financial Group Inc., struggling to avoid the crippling loss of its AAA credit rating, took out insurance on $29 billion in securities it guarantees"...
and
We're heading into maybe the most turbulent few weeks the bond insurers have ever seen,'' said Matt Fabian, a senior analyst and managing director at Municipal Market Advisors, an independent research firm in Concord, Massachusetts.There could be some very serious numbers floating around before Christmas
Citi's Equity + Yearly Profits - MLEC, Jr aka CitiSIV Obligations (current + probable assuming the trend in housing, as in anvil through the cheesecloth flooring, continues) [yes, that's an algebraic minus for those with an optomistic bent] - [algabraic, of course] CRE loans and other asset wonders populating Citi's balance sheet + next year's profits [to help stay above zero] equals what??
As solvency has been explained here when at zero and below to not be equal to bankruptcy proceedings, it appears Citi is insolvent without additional contributions from gigantic depositors who don't want their deposits to drop by much more than their newly-come-to-Citi-spirituality equity positions, and this all means more avoidance of stark reality...
...and here it is.
Loan:Equity ratios dropping when looked at objectively
Disgorgement of profitable assets as the garbage is unsellable at anything other than insolvency prices.
Major, though temporary, slam to the credibility and trustworthiness of Citi. Twisting the GS-man Paulson's arm to support a chimera and a recognized fraud by omission and comission, the MLEC, has severely damaged the credibility of Paulson and the integrity of the US Treasury in the eyes of the entire financial world. Pandit is not the white knight. Truth telling is not a virtue; it's a legal requirement.
A stunningly unsafe business environment for the next 3 years while the US RE prices, residential and commercial, continue to return to yield-positive pricing...which means Citi ain't gonna find investments to earn what it needs or did in the last 15 years.
As I've posted before, Citi is BK, based on the magical formula of 2 + 2 = 4.
Right now, Pandit has arrived with his handbag full of lipstick and he's painting the pig.
And here is tomorrow's news on Northern Rock. Geezz does this sound familiar - I'll have to go scroll up in the comments section? There is no blood* way they wait 'till the year end. My guess December 19th. Remember this is the UK's 5th largest bank/lender.
"The government was last night preparing a contingency plan for a possible new year nationalisation of Northern Rock as it held last-ditch talks with the potential buyers of the stricken bank.
Ministers have reluctantly concluded that temporary state ownership may prove the only way to prevent a final collapse of the Newcastle-based lender.
In a bid to keep the private sector option alive, they agreed last night to give the bid from former Abbey National boss Luqman Arnold equal status to preferred bidder Virgin, amid fears that Richard Branson has been struggling to finalise a deal"
GaudiaRay- "Right now, Pandit has arrived with his handbag full of lipstick and he's painting the pig."
Sure, it's quite likely Citi will have to be bailed. What's the alternative? Let it fail?
The lessons should have been re-learned almost twenty years ago, but they weren't. Bankers, mortgage brokers and real estate people should be going to prison right now, but it won't happen.
So, we taxpayers are going to bail out Citi and a bunch of others like it. Conjure considers it a cost of doing business.
What else should he do GaudiaRay? Just close up shop and go home? This is what we've all been saying is the right thing to do, and now they've done it. We'll see what the consequences are, short term and long term, sometime in the future. Tomorrow's market reaction actually means NOTHING, because we all know that it will all be forgotten by Monday, and stock prices will be reacting to some different news, up or down.
"At the same time, I'm feeling structural weakness in emerging markets. Today, I sold all my yen (FXY) and shorted emerging (EUM). I don't feel confident enough yet to ultra short emerging markets."
been 2x short for awhile now, the SSEC is below 5K, BVSP took a dump today, will be a wild ride, good luck!
Fellow bloggers, the IB's and commercial B's have gamed the world's economies.
They have seriously damaged the future security of millions of people who depend on their communal savings institutions to protect their stores of value.
Now I'm not talking about a sociopath like tanman who sold loans to fraudsters and who knew totally what the downside looked like; he's white trash as far as I see it.
I'm talking about the square mile and wall street well heeled and well educated who clearly understood the consequences of their churn & burn behavior.
Every one of those people could have claimed the high moral ground and refused to be "in". Instead, they whored themselves out of unvarnished greed, and they built a derivatives pyramid standing on its pointy head.
What do I want? I want the feds and the eurocrats to do just what they did to Arthur Andersen. There are plenty of other banks who will fill the shoes of Citi. There's nothing special about Citi or Wells or NR or any of them. There's nothing special about Bear Stearns or Merrill.
Their employees will find jobs in the companies who buy up the pieces of these fraudulent companies. Fraud by omission is real. They failed to disclose because disclosure of risk, other than in legalese, and I was one of those monkeys, would have been a deal-breaker. It's like AA failing to audit obviously risky assets.
Bust'em. And create in the world's remaining financial community a sense of fear that they will get wiped out too if they fail to disclose, in their chase for the golden ring.
Nobody will care but for the major depositors who are unfortunately not FDIC insured.
Failure to cleanse this gaming table of this ilk will do nothing but extend the new game of hide the garbage, yet another unproductive allocation of resources and time.
Some things are just beyond science, and Conjure is in that category.
I've tried sacrificing goats, like Nepal Airlines did recently for one of their Boeing 757s with electrical trouble. They sacrificed two of them and the airplane started right up.
The problem with buying the builders now, beyond the BK risk, is that their best years are behind them. It is mistaken to think that KB, LEN, TOL, or others are growth stocks. They are cyclical value plays, if anything.
The profit margins and P/E ratios of these stocks during the period 2003-2006 were IMO huge anomalies that will never be repeated. The bubble of a lifetime has come and gone; there will be a recovery someday but not to the insane levels we just had.
I took a hard look at buying some SPF on the odd chance it doesn't go BK; at the time SPF was trading around $4. I passed because I did some analysis and while it may not go BK, it probably will stay in the sub $10 range for many years to come. For that kind of risk you are better off getting a high-yield muni or better yet go with some growth stocks in other sectors.
We just had the more insane housing bubble in history, and it while the crash won't last forever, I believe it will never be repeated in our lifetimes at least.
Tis true that virtually all of the SIV assets are of better quality. The really stinky, stinky, stinky stuff is festering in the CDOs and ABCP conduits.
Mortgages, credit cards, trade receivables, auto loans.
Mortgages, credit cards, trade receivables, auto loans.
We will start hearing this story very soon.
Anonymous | 12.13.07 - 9:08 pm | #
Yes, indeed. The big picture is ignored as each data point comes out and argued over. But. . .
Increased forclosures, high loan to income values for homes, increased bankruptcies due to medical expenses, longer terms and more total amount financed for car purchases, rolling over debt from previous car purchases, multiyear negative savings rate, decreased benefits, increased cost of energy and food, HELOCs, corporate debt, government debt, individual debt, loss of work benefits, decreased health and higher obesity, increased credit card usage, decaying infrastructure, highest all time debt to GDP ratios, overall lack of trust in institutions, expensive and counterproductive wars, corrupt and incompetent financial and political leadership. . . and on and on.
You can argue over each data point but taken together the picture is very very ominous.
I've heard commentators wax poetic about how the United States has the most transparent financial system in the world, staffed by the brightest people in the world.
And everybody makes money.
The interesting thing is that, once people start losing money, they learn that the system is more corrupt than they thought it was.
Human nature being what is, with corruption everywhere, the United States has been able to ignore the problem because everybody was making money and say 'we're unique.'
Well, we're not unique, and maybe some of us are beginning to understand that not all banana republics lie south of the border.
Waiting to buy builders seems a tad like waiting to get back into real estate speculation. I just get the feeling that real estate and its supporting cast will create such a black eye/broken leg/concussion for the economy that it will be shunned for many years. Without speculators, real estate appreciation won't do that well, and neither will builders it would seem.
Hopefully, this Citi decision will everyone else to get off their dead asses and do it.
The reason Citi (Prince) put it off so long was to save bonuses... The new guy is on a different mission with different metrics (a least for now) so could afford to do it (as CR said do it fast 'before the honeymoon is over').
That's one of the perverse aspects of tying management compensation to short term 'results'. Screws the future to reward the present. They need more balanced scoring if they ever expect to avoid this kinda crap in the future.
It will be smaller entrepreneurial builders who lead the recovery in homebuilding.
The big HBs need a combination of financing, landbank and organization to make their model work, and they won't have it. New big public builders will be built over time from the ground up.
"Citigroups new chief executive Vikram Pandit has charged chief financial officer Gary Crittenden with leading a review of the banks structure and cost base in the clearest sign yet that tens of thousands of job cuts are on the cards"
Moody's lowers Citigroup's ratings senior to Aa3 from Aa2
New York, December 13, 2007 -- Moody's Investors Service downgraded the long-term ratings of Citigroup Inc. (Citigroup) (senior to Aa3 from Aa2) and lowered the Bank Financial Strength Rating (BFSR) of Citibank, N.A. (Citibank) to B from A-. The rating on Citibank for long-term deposits and senior debt was lowered to Aa1 from Aaa. The rating outlook is stable.
The downgrade was prompted by Moody's view that Citigroup's capital ratios will remain low. According to Senior Vice President Sean Jones, "this situation is likely because management will need to take sizable write-downs against its subprime RMBS and CDO portfolio." The bank is also expected to make significant sustained provisions against its residential mortgage book, which is over $200 billion. These charges are likely to occur when Citigroup's normal earnings power is depressed, particularly in the United States.
I think this is definitely good news for Citi. It 1) shows that Pandit is paying some attention to reality and is trying to fix things and 2) implies Citi can handle the losses.
While Citi may need a bailout, remember there are at least 3 entities willing and able to bailout the banking system. The US Government, of course, could fix all the US bank losses with less than Bush spends every year in Iraq, and it would actually do us good. The Chinese and Arabs are sitting on hundreds of billions in dollars they'll never be able to sell and dependent on the continued functioning of the US economy. Deals a la Abu Dhabi or even at less favorable terms make a lot of sense for them - they get something for dollars that will otherwise sit uselessly forever in their vaults. By showing it will play ball, Citi makes itself suitable for a bailout.
Asia markets currently Red, not impressed with all this negative talk about their main squeeze, U.S.A.
Big banks in trouble, consumer tapped out-not the kind of news you want to hear if you are running a manufacturing plant in Asia or Germany for that matter.
In terms of who goes first, my bet is on Countrywide. Wamu and Citi have just thrown in the towel on denying losses, so they are at least attempting to cope with reality. Countrywide is still expecting a whole herd of ponies, and accordingly it's continuing to make toxic loans (notably home equity and option ARMS). Countrywide's continued existence hurts the system in a way that Wamu's and Citi's don't, so the feds will be much more lenient to Wamu and Citi. It's the feds that actually shut these things down; they always have leeway to bend the rules.
Thanks Dryfly
Let the betting pools of who standing at the end begin. This is my thought, is Citi to big to go bye-bye I don't care and let them and all the others B/S,WM,CW and who ever else. Soon they will join blue collar and soon white collar with out jobs. Walmart will be like shopping at Macys for this crowd.
jo6pac
Thanks CR/Tanta for the info
Off to have pie and watch Buffy.
Only in America. In the '20s, guys like Harry Klemfuss (Young and Rubicam) used the death of Rudolph Valentino to persuade Americans, and the rest of the so-called civilized world, to RENT HALLS (funeral homes) to display their dead loved ones. Harry also gave us National Secretary's Day to honor those hardworking gals and, by the way, benefit his client, the national florists. Congress institutionalized it.
PR and advertising is the one industry where Americans truly excel, even beyond high tech. No one can match us at slinging bullshit.
"Mr Pandit has even thornier problems to resolve. Doubts about Citi's sprawling business model and disparate internal cultures predated the credit crunch: the bank's shares performed anaemically throughout Mr Prince's tenure. But diversification seems to have multiplied Citi's woes. Given the continuing questions about its capital base, the case for a break-up looks stronger than it didalthough size has its own benefits, not least making institutions too big to fail. Mr Pandit, true to his reputation, is not going to rush any decisions. But sooner or later, more surgery looks inevitable."
CFC, CITI,WaMu, what market will they be serving? what will be the new business plan? Who will be their new competitors?
Once they have layed off the x number of employee's, closed offices world wide, etc, then what?
They will find competition to be extreme in any market segment that they attempt to go after, which will require more capital, new smarter people resources need to be attracted, loyal customers to be won. While they struggle to find new business their old asset base will continue to deflate with lower RE values causing more capital flight.
Was it totally black? Not a single white hair? And the ceremonial wreath, were those flowers fresh? You can't be too careful when you need to appease the gods.
Slightly more on track, saw a mention that Countrywide wasn't evicting delinquent borrowers. Not saying that I'd quit paying the mortgage, but it's another sign they're stuffed to the gills with foreclosures. I'll try and track down the link if I get time.
Yes, Asian mkts have been red since super-Tuesday. But many say its overdone-- in this mornings local paper a pundit offers that Hong Kong stocks should be going to the moon what with the negative real rates the market will see. An unfortunate effect of HKs dollar peg is that any cuts stateside translate into (definitely un-needed) cuts to HK rates. Res property is going manic with bidding wars, queues to view, etc. But theres so much money! Were safe until the Olympics! seems to be the rejoinder to any scepticism. The parlous state of J6P is perceived on the producer side, but not so much (yet) on the punter side, at least in HK.
The government was last night preparing a contingency plan for a possible new year nationalisation of Northern Rock as it held last-ditch talks with the potential buyers of the stricken bank.
Do you understand that a huge part of the trading volume in Asian emerging markets (outside China) is by leveraged hedge funds jockeying with each other, not domestic investors? It no longer has anything to do with anything sane or local. It's just a big casino where everyone is free to leave at any time.
Could be too early to make this call, but I believe foreign markets are showing signs of decoupling from the NYSE.
Heng Seng has had two 700-point drop days in a row and is already down another 200+ so far tonight. I think they've taken note of the financial sector problems in the U.S. and are reacting to that rather than the NYSE moving up 40 points.
So that didn't make much sense. But I think this quote says it all:
===========
"There's a real danger that this may not work. Both the Fed and the ECB have injected a lot of liquidity before, but the banks are hoarding it. We're still seeing all the signs of stress with Libor and the VIX [fear gauge] at very elevated levels. The reason is that people still don't know where the bodies are buried," he said. "This may be a Made-in-America credit crisis but the Americans have cleverly exported their sub-prime cancer to pension funds all over the world. The risk now is a recession on both sides of the Atlantic," he said.
Julian Jessop, chief economist at Capital Economics, said the move was stop-gap measure. "These measures should tide the markets through the potentially awkward New Year period but do not and cannot address the underlying imbalances threatening the world economy. Risk premiums are likely to remain permanently higher after the excesses of the last few years, and it will still be harder to obtain credit," he said.
Might world markets be selling off because the rest of the world feels stiffed by bad U.S. paper and is abandoning the American capitalist market format???? If I'm right, the rest of the world has begun their selloff which the U.S. will follow shortly later...
when insured muni bonds default does MBI take on interest pmts or interest AND principal? do they have to book any losses on the entire bond value? i've heard different things.
I understand that they are like other insurance companies in that they reserve against expected losses and then pay out claims from those reserves as insured bonds default on interest or principal. So, their earnings would show the impact sooner and their cash would take a hit later.
The red in Asia is turning scarlet. I watch Taiwan for clues, because it's so ridiculous that a defenseless country that basically could be target practice for China's military machine has a stock market with an enormous P/E.
Tonight, Taiwan dropped through the all-important 8,000 resistance.
Can you explain how these banks managed to put off balance sheet stuff that it appears should have been on balance sheet? How did that work?
Citi's SIVs were set up as separate, bankruptcy-remote companies. The SIVs bought various kinds of paper from Citi customers, some long term, some short term, and Citi managed the SIVs. The SIVs funded themselves by issuing commercial paper and medium term notes. There was no accounting hanky-panky in any of this, it was all above board. What happened is the SIVs could no longer roll their short term paper, because no one trusted the ratings on the collateral held by the SIV. Much of that collateral is fairly illiquid, which is why the SIVs were created in the first place. Now, some SIVs of other banks---not Citi's---had backstop credit guarantees from their sponsors. For example, HSBC utimately was obligated to take its two SIVs onto its balance sheet under its credit guarantees. Citi had no obligation to take anything onto its balance sheet, but today it chose to do so either to, ahem, protect its reputation, or because various regulators put a gun to Citi's head after the MLEC couldn't be funded.
Since pension and money funds are holding a lot of this paper, Citi's action will help to contain at least a small part of the contagion.
Citi's SIVs were set up as separate, bankruptcy-remote companies. ............ There was no accounting hanky-panky in any of this, it was all above board.
Obviously whatever the legality here the vehicles were associated with Citi and had citi funding.
Naturally a person then expects citi to be behind them.
Slowly but surely the paper losses on credit are happening. Now for the next five years or so we get the real losses as all the expected foreclosures and defaults happen.
But the Fed's gonna cut 25 beeps next meeting so the markets will party like it's 1999.
Actually the vehicles didn't have Citi funding for their operations...but Citi did get paid nice fees for managing them. And no doubt Citi's sponsorship made it easier for these things to fund in the market, even if the prospectuses are crystal-clear that none of the debt was an obligation of Citigroup.
Since these SIVs have blown up, it's easy to forget that they provided cheap funding for activities out there in the real economy. And that funding is now very expensive, if it's available at all, which will have an impact in some businesses. It's the same thing with the implosion of the secondary market for mortgages: it's easy to find blame, but very hard to figure out how needed mortgages will be funded going forward.
It's the same thing with the implosion of the secondary market for mortgages: it's easy to find blame, but very hard to figure out how needed mortgages will be funded going forward.
Steve
Where is it written that there's an inherent right for the residents of the US to get a house for nearly free?
Where is it written that bad loans to stupid and greedy people are worth anything at all?
Write off the crap; toss the non-payers out; dump the REO's at what the market will pay; punish the fraud-by-omission-&-co-mission white color sociopaths; and start out small, once again on this wheel of economic life.
Ahem...instead the FDR game of adding more economic fuel to the fire is the new solution of the day. It will or will not work; and it will bump gold to the moon, thank you very much.
David Pearson has this exactly correct. The end result is a dramatic tightening of credit and far greater risk of recession.
The markets are disconnected from the reality of the situation at the moment. The fed funds rate is going much lower and yields will likely be depressed for a prolonged period.
The next shoe is commodities and hedge funds(couldn't happen to nicer people).
Tough period ahead, but, manageable.
This was a very good move by Citi, but, the economic implications are widespread.
Downey's (DSL) 13 month data is out this morning. NPA jumped up to 3.65% - up 1% in the last month. NPA's are going vertical. Should be a fun day for the option arm lenders.
i know the citi is the biggest but i want a story on gs which seems the smartest...can we have thread on those $4B they made when everyone else was losing left and right?
"Core's a joke. It should be marginalized, since it's totally irrelevant."
It's easier justify inflating away the debt by throwing money out of helicpoters to bailout the banks if they use the core rate and it keeps retail sales rising due to pass threw inflation even as demand is falling.
$49 billion?!! This is peanuts? What does it take to impress you people? It's a humungous LOSS. "'Tis true, 'tis pity, and pity 'tis, 'tis true. A foolish figure, but farewell it."
The greatest danger of high CPI is on Social Security because of dollar-for-dollar COLA. Bernanke emphasized this in his earliest testimony to Congress. Yet, his Fed has let inflation get out of control.
Every Social Security benefit to be paid in the future now costs 4.5% more (plus compounding). A 4.5% CPI has as more impact than double-digit CPIs of 1970s because Social Security is now more frail. This is why the Fed has to focus on headline inflation, not just core.
You can debate whether CPI accurately reflects U.S. inflation. But all members of Congress understand that it will be politically difficult to tamper with the dollar-for-dollar relationship between CPI and COLA. It's senior pocketbook city.
Talking heads are trying to sell this as the beginning of the end of the credit crunch - Mr. Market isn't agreeing at the moment - sure looks more like the end of the beginning to me.
The financial blog Calculated Risk, using data from First American CoreLogic, estimates that if home prices fall 20 percent there will be 13.7 million homeowners with negative equity. If prices fall 30 percent, that number would rise to more than 20 million.
this, and not SIVs or conduits, is citi's problem. by themselves, these structured finance problems would be survivable.
but citi has $2.2tn in assets over $120bn in equity. with $312bn in loans secured by real estate and another $90bn in unsecured consumer loans.
we love to discuss the esoteria here, and their structured finance exposure can surely weaken them -- but it's their plain old whole loan portfolio that can kill them.
Moody's and Standard & Poor's are considering downgrading the credit ratings on the seven SIVs the bank advises, raising the prospect that it will become difficult for them to keep renewing their debt.
Citi bail outs SIVs-run risk. How? Do they buy the full capital structure (k notes included) and the corresponding assets? Just the ABCP/MTNs? If that is the case, what about capital notes? Do they remain open to capital adequacy tests?
Oh S word, No, not that one, its worse. STAGFLATION, or at least a mild case of it. The economy is clearly slowing and now it looks like inflation is heating up too. The market was clearly disappointed that the Fed didnt cut by 50 basis points on Tuesday, but todays data offers the reason why. The Fed operates under two mandates: To keep the economy growing AND to keep inflation under control. Back with the October policy statement that came out with the Fed meeting they said that the risks between inflation heating up and the economy slowing were balanced. Well think of balance as being a teeter totter. It can be in balance if you have two five year olds sitting on it, or it can be in balance if you have two sumo wrestlers on it. Clearly we have a couple of Sumo wrestlers here.
Headline CPI shot up to 0.8% for the month, well above the 0.6% that was expected, and close to 3x Octobers level of 0.3%. Year over year, it is up 4.3%. To nobodys surprise energy was the key culprit, rising 5.7% for the month. On a year over year basis the energy component of CPI is up 21%. However, even on a core level, CPI was up 0.3%, a tick higher than what was expected and what it was running in October. This is clearly above the Feds comfort zone of 1 to 2% inflation. The usual suspects were at work in raising core inflation. On a year over year basis Medical costs are up 5.8% and Education costs are up 5.6%. Owners Equivalent Rent (OER) is up 2.8% year over year. Just as soaring housing prices never found their way into the CPI on the way up during the blowing of the housing bubble, neither will they find their way into reducing inflation during the popping of it.
Industrial production came in a bit better than expected at up 0.3% vs. a 0.2% expectation. However the October numbers were revised down to a decline of 0.7% from the originally reported decline of 0.5%. A sharp decline in that series in one month tends to be reversed in the next month, so its hard to get excited about the slightly better than expected report for November. Capacity Utilization disappointed a bit at 81.5% vs. expectations of 81.7%. That was up from the current read on October of 81.4%, but below the originally reported 81.7%. Strength in mine output (up 1.1%) pretty much offset weakness in output from Utilities (down 1.3%). Manufacturing output rose 0.4%. Utility output has been down in four of the last five months.
cross post continued:
still think the Fed cuts again at its next meeting at the end of January, however, if we get another inflation read like this one next month, all bets are off. Back in the 1970s the Fed made the mistake of being to accommodative in the face of higher energy prices and it took very harsh medicine from Dr. Volker to cure the patient. Inflation is like a cancer, and the chemotherapy to cure it is not any fun. Generally it is a good idea to try to cure it as soon as it is detected. However this time around the patient has other problems (a massive banking crisis/credit crunch) that make the classic medicine for curing the inflation cancer, namely higher interest rates, contraindicated. That credit crisis was highlighted again with the decision by (Sh)Citi (C) to bring $49 billion of SIV assets and liabilities back onto its balance sheet. While it is not known how much of a mark to market hit will be taken on the asset side, and thus to equity, given the huge leverage involved in SIVs (normally about 14:1) we do know that there will be a hit to its capital ratios. They and the other big banks (Bank of America, (BAC), JP Morgan (JPM) Wachovia (WB)) who will most likely follow suit will have to either raise capital (sell preferred, stop share buybacks, cut dividends) or stop making more loans and shrink their balance sheets. If they do the later the risk of a recession rises sharply, if the do the former existing shareholders will be severely diluted.
"For example, HSBC utimately was obligated to take its two SIVs onto its balance sheet under its credit guarantees."
This isn't true. HSBC may have provided some liquidity to the SIVs prior to the bailout, but total committed liquidity for the SIVs wouldn't have exceeded around 5% of the senior debt. That's the total extent that HSBC could have been obligated to support its SIVs. The same applies to other bank sponsors of SIVs. There's a lot of confusion between ABCP conduits, which usually have full liquidity support, and SIVs, which have minimal committed liquidity.
why do u think the USD is strengthening? they're being repatriated by hedge funds and IB's.
which could explains rich's conundrum of a weakening yen.
idoc | 12.13.07 - 11:19 pm | # "
Idoc, if I had to guess the USD is strengthening because of being oversold (the Canadian dollar versus the greenback got way out of hand a few weeks ago) and the increasing likelihood of other Central Banks beginning to cut rates as well.
I think our system is in trouble because we've stuck a lot of foreigners who trusted us with bad paper. I believe the last few days' sell offs in indecies, like the Heng Seng, have far exceeded the moves of the NYSE. Admittedly I haven't followed international markets long, but it seemed to me when the NYSE had a solid move up other exchanges like the Heng Seng or Shanghai followed in lock step.
Now the Heng Seng is down 445... this is a 3rd straight day of solid selling in the Asian exchanges.
"By showing it will play ball, Citi makes itself suitable for a bailout"
As much as I hate all the IBs and money center banks for all the greed and corruption and would like to see a few go under, this line makes the most sense to me. A true, "father I have sinned" moment, if they actually come clean. Good chance of that? Who knows.
Idoc, if I had to guess the USD is strengthening because of being oversold
Even US mfg people would agree - I sat in meetings all week and it was 'can you believe the dollar?' over and over. Told me the sucker was oversold - at least for now.
The dollar fall over the last few months has changed the expectations of importers though - they all thought dollar didn't matter, that cheap labor uber alles. Isn't so. Never really was (like housing prices only go up - big lie).
The game is a lot more interesting (and difficult) now. No more no-brain decisions, at least until no-brainers are back in charge.
Kou Jie- I don't know much about emerging equity markets other then I just felt that the easy money had been made and the big boys would be looking for other fish to fry, plus all the MSM financial types hawking the decouple theory seem to be complete nonsense. Anyway shorting emerging markets so far is a toss up, time will tell.
Dryfly, I'm beginning to think the dollar and American assets are going to begin to be despised real fast. I wonder if the move isn't to go from shorting foreign markets to precious metals and batten down the hatches... or precious metals and short the NYSE...
Dryfly, you were writing about Chicago's plans for a city-owned casino earlier. You'll love this one. Hot off the press from the Chicago Tribune.
"Indicted insider has story, home to sell"
Christopher Kellyour unreform governor's gambling point manwas indicted Thursday on federal tax evasion charges involving huge gambling losses with Chicago bookies and Las Vegas casinos.
I'm near Chicago tonight and was listening to the news - Chicago is close to opening a city owned casino. What would Al Capone say?
Dryfly, don't count on it. It's a bunch of political maneuvering - the Illinois legislature is currently in a special session because they can't get a budget passed. They couldn't get a budget passed because the governor has been acting like a spoiled child ever since his [really bad] proposal got exactly zero votes in favor. He called a special session when the regular session ended, just to be a jerk and force the legislators to stay in Springfield for the rest of the year. A special session requires something like 2/3rds majority to pass anything which makes it impossible because downstaters think Chicago isn't subsidizing them enough. What we have now are wacky proposals that serve the purpose of "attempting" to do something while they wait for the new year, when a simple majority will do the trick and the bumpkins that think Chicago has $800 million for a casino license just laying around can be ignored. Never mind that nobody is really sure that anyone actually wants a casino in Chicago.
As for Al Capone... Well, actually there is one unused casino license in Illinois. It's bouncing around the court system as the state gaming board looks increasingly likely to prove that it has the power to take away your license if your cousin's neighbor's uncle's barber has organized crime ties.
The financial blog Calculated Risk, using data from First American CoreLogic, estimates that if home prices fall 20 percent there will be 13.7 million homeowners with negative equity. If prices fall 30 percent, that number would rise to more than 20 million.
.
Wow. A guy goes to lunch and the board goes international. Capital flows, trade flows, relative interest rates, all the way to abandoning the American capitalist market format. Way beyond my ken. But I'd certainly second what Dryfly has been seeing, and whether that means an oversold dollar, who knows?
The trend has been more Chinese exports using more RMB denominated inputs, and local cost increases have exacerbated the RMB appreciations push on prices. No buyers want to allow Chinese makers to export a ton of inflation, but what they want is beside the point-- a higher price is dead nuts certain. Exporter margins are gone.
We're told that effects of ex rate shifts lag. Maybe this shifts some production to Bdesh or Vietnam. My hope is Wisconsin, but time will tell.
Id short emerging markets (if I shorted anything which I dont) since I dont see decoupling either. Or lets say no decoupling until and unless the world economy enjoys a wrenching about face.
I hope its those nimble non-automotive manufacturers in the Midwest that Dryfly has spoken of that will be part of the benign cause (and effect). Also a resurgent middle class in BRIC. Both in their juvenile stages; and some smart money says China gets old before it gets rich
We're told that effects of ex rate shifts lag. Maybe this shifts some production to Bdesh or Vietnam. My hope is Wisconsin, but time will tell.
Kou Jie
I look forward to the day when I can once again buy a U.S.-made pair of shoes.
Well the buck broke the 50 day ma. But if it is really getting stronger it needs to break the 100 day. Got a bit to go. This may have a bit to do with a bit oversold and the Taffy proposal...too soon to tell. I just don't see anything fundemental, other than an oversold blip in some computer program driving this.
Kou Jie - it's happening. But the problem is mfg is so efficient (labor wise) that even if the dollar volume of domestic mfg grows they won't hire enough people to take away the decline in home building & financial services.
There is going to be some pain from all this here in the states - no if ands or buts. My point is the re-balancing has to happen, the US can't consume the worlds hard labor and give them crap paper in exchange. If nothing else they at last should get to own more of those efficient Wisconsin manufacturers. That is if we don't give them products in exchange, we at least need to give them real money... if we can't do that then we will have to give up some of our real assets. Productive assets. Even those in Wisconsin.
That'll make the cheese heads here happy (not - they don't even like to see FIBs own their plants). Oh well as long as they don't take the Packers [My in-laws are Packer fans, each and every cheese hat wearing one of them, pray for me].
Does anyone know what time the "Citigroup to Bring $49 Billion From SIVs Onto Its Balance Sheet" story was announced? It looks to me that it was announced after hours?
Mise I know folks who have those Packer stock certs framed on their walls. The pictures of the kids & grand kid are in the back, Packer certs up there next to Jesus.
I'm a Bills fan...but I've always had a soft spot for the Packers. Great organization. And I lived in Milwaukee for a few years as well.Way OT...
I'd love to see BF and the Cheese heads go to the SB this year, but the EVIL NE Patriotacts would likely crush them...and I don't want to see that. Rather the Dallas Cowpukes get a Patriotact waterboarding.
Try Allen Edmonds. Bring money!
Kou Jie | 12.14.07 - 12:27 am | #
The way the dollar was falling for awhile I was half expecting to see AEs at Payless. After all Payless only sells shoes made in low wage rate parts of the world. That could be Wisconsin if the trend continued...
I look forward to the day when I can once again buy a U.S.-made pair of shoes.
I don't. But I look forward to the day I can buy an American-made LCD or laptop. Low value-added labor-intensive stuff like shoes and clothes can stay offshore.
Yes, that upper midwest chauvinism. I don't think any outsider could comprehend gophers belittling badgers who take it out on the U.P. it's like the lutefisk / surstroemming conflict; simply unresolvable. All these places are pretty insular, which I believe is a direct function of the irreplaceable local tavern.
But I understand your comments about labor productivity-- even Chinese concerned about employment bemoan how efficient the factories have become.
And when those factories venture into the U.S. to buy (usually a brand, or some dist'n network) they are usually taken straight from the airport to the cleaners. How to re-cycle that U.S. munny to real stuff is a challenging enterprise, even when the seller is not a xenophobe or crook.
MLEC/SuperSIV was a chance for all the banks to put their really shitty paper out to the slaughterhouse a little later than initially possible. That didn't work out, so folks are taking the bowl cut now, even though they still have no idea what it will sell for(i.e., this is all accounting black magic)
Citi is so big it's like a mutated elephant: 8 legs & 2 trunks. Even if you think you got it figured out, you have no idea. These SIV writedowns are indeed a good start, but to say that they can maintain tier 1 ratios at a canter with the SIV + PE bridge loans + everything else they screwed the pooch on is straining credibility. They wouldn't be shaking the couches for the odd $1.8bn property if they didn't have to. Meanwhile their US bank deposit base isn't large enough to provide the float like BofA & JPMorgan can.
Does Citi survive by the skin of their teeth? If they ditch the divy for the next year, sure.
I still think they need to get towards 1998 price levels before I'll go truly long, but I'm ready to start averaging in over the next couple of weeks.
How about cash, precious metals and puts (on US financials, IBs, retailers)? Maybe some LEAPS on the bubbly tech stocks...
ShortCourage | 12.14.07 - 12:13 am | #"
ShortC, how long do you want to stay in dollars for? That's why, because I think foreign markets will drop significantly before the merry NYSE (ragin' kegger about to begin no doubt as surely The Fed's auctions will rally the bulls), the dollar will eventually collapse without traditional foreign support (buyer's strike.) I think it's that dollar selloff which sends gold to lofty new heights.
I'm a Bills fan...but I've always had a soft spot for the Packers.
Ya me too - I have a soft spot in my heart for crazed fanatics and Packer fans are all of that and more. I remember one year PF (Pre-Favre) when the pack was on their way to something like a 2-14 season and a buddy was going to do the six hour drive from Mpls to Lambeau for a game and I asked 'Why?"... He just looked at me and said 'Cause the future is bright - you wait until next year'.
The country needs more of that... I think.
Oh and he and his fiancee had their engagement picture taken in front of Lambeau - the one for the paper. Only in Wisconsin. I'm surprised they didn't tail gate first. Gotta love it.
There's no way this helps anything. It's merely a result of a DOA M-LEC.
I don't know what has confused so many of you here, but this is no fix, and is not good in any way.
Capitalism is dead. No happy wishes will return it to its past glory. Dead. Just get out of the draft while the carcass rots.
Citi is toast, hell, many of the major banks are toast. risk_capital has lost his mind, things are much much worse than anybody dares say. Yes, folks, banks are going to fail, and with it the errant dreams of many a fool.
Figure it out! This is truly the big one. Bigger than any of you can yet imagine.
junior notes, which have a current market value of $2.5 billion, are in the first loss position.
everything 'marked to market as of Dec 12.
The value of ditching the "Master Liquidity Enhancement Conduit" ("M-LEC") - priceless. I have never seen anything get such a uniformly bad reaction. If anyone can find a SINGLE favorable article in the press, I would like to see it. Some of the European banks that were originally going to be bailed out hated it. Every time it was mentioned, the stock went down.
Assets: 60% Financial Institutions Debt Aaa and Aa
40% Structured Finance Aaa
The SIVs have no direct exposure to U.S. sub-prime assets and have approximately $51 million of indirect
exposure to sub-prime assets through CDOs which are AAA rated and carry credit enhancements.
Assets: 10 Billion in Commercial Paper Avg Maturity 2.4 mos.
48 Billion Medium Term Notes
Through asset reductions, the SIVs have partially repaid the previously disclosed $10
billion commitment to purchase commercial paper. As a result, Citi now holds $7.2 billion
of commercial paper issued by the SIVs as of December 12, 2007. Citi expects the SIVs
to fully repay the commercial paper at or before the last maturity date in mid-March 2008.
Following the final maturity date, the new facility is expected to be the sole commitment
by Citi to the SIVs.
Average maturity of assets 3.7 years.
They have to believe that the valuations plus the $2.5 billion cushion can get them through first quarter 08.
Estimate of ultimate cost - since they think they can close the year at current valuations and have $2.5 billion cushion, give it another $2.5 to run it off.
1) Citi will be in the business of not lending. Multiply by the other banks pressured to take in their SIV's and you get a credit crunch.
2) The bank will have to reserve against the SIV assets, which means more losses ahead. Capital ratios are a moving target in this environment, not a static one. Raise $8b one quarter, gone in losses the next...
Whatever the stock does tomorrow, the undeniable implication is that Goldman is right: $2tr in credit will disappear next year, and potentially more if the economy lapses into a recession. This would be negative for any economy (as a % of GDP), but much more so for one where leverage is the lifeblood of growth.
Oh come now, you know Banker has been calling the death of MLEC for...what?...maybe a month now? I actually think he deserves some credit.
Where is he, anyways?
The fact that they could run 40% of it off and not run through all the junior notes under really bad market conditions leads me to think they won't have to take much more of a hit on this.
The horrible publicity cost them $5/share in market price.
There are 5 billion shares and the dividend is $2. The stock is already priced for it to be cut in half. That gives them $5 billion in additional capital plus earnings to continue writing down.
They will book every dollar they can at year end. Too bad they are capital constrained. Or maybe not. Two years of bad bonuses!
Seriously though, and it was mentioned way upstairs...this is about Shiti being able to put that shat into a package and the Taffy auctions. Remeber triple whitching Friday is coming up and the Fed has to get enough caish into the system to clear those contracts.
This ain't about liquidity or long term solutions, it's about next Fridays triple witching and the banks clearing those contracts. Very short term has Bernutty and pals.
More from Krugman's column mentioning CR (that was first spotted by end_days at 11:40 BTW)
Whats going on in the markets isnt an irrational panic. Its a wholly rational panic, because theres a lot of bad debt out there, and you dont know how much of that bad debt is held by the guy who wants to borrow your money.
.
Citigroup said it will consolidate the SIVs assets and liabilities onto Citigroup's balance sheet under applicable accounting rules.
The company said it made this decision to support the current ratings by Moody's Corp. (MCO)and S&P of the SIVs' senior debt and to allow for asset reduction.
Citigroup said it expects orderly asset reductions will be sufficient to meet its $35 billion liquidity requirements through the end of 2008.
The company expects to return to its targeted capital ratios by teh end of the second quarter. mmmm... so what are the ratios now ????
I would still say that things aren't as bad as 87 when they took the $3.5 billion hit for latin american debt.
What followed was the S&L meltdown, Texas and the sunbelt banks failing. The commercial real estate glut. The residential real estate downturn. Followed by an injection of capital from Saudi Arabia.
In 87 the Fed gave C a free ride by allowing them to use the loan loss reserve as capital. I saw it somewhere on google book.
"In 87 the Fed gave C a free ride by allowing them to use the loan loss reserve as capital"
Well unless this is all a plot to make it look like the US orinating banks are suffering as much as the foreign holders of this stuff - if it is not a plot - then it appears to me that these banks are already more or less insolvent - or are feared to be - otherwise there would be no crisis of confidance.
Missean:
The only Marxist ideas like are those pertaining to alienation. The whole dictatorship of the proles does not sit well with me and I fully understand the crimes committed by Marxists. I even made through 3/4's of the Gulag Archipalego (800 pages describing torture is far to many). Is there no sarcasm emotican?
Can you explain how these banks managed to put off balance sheet stuff that it appears should have been on balance sheet? How did that work?<
The same way they booked $2 billion in profit last quarter. I'm sure it was technically justified. However I am surprised that they could change their story from 'absolutely no risk' to eating it.
The auditors have gotten much tougher since Anderson -- especially when there is a chance for a bad outcome. They won't roll over if they might be looking at a bad outcome.
And now the entire world is going to see how they book this. They don't want to look like idiots two quarters in a row.
Good.
Should be an interesting day tomorrow on the market, with this (and high CPI?).
they did this 24 hours too early... what happened to Friday night, 5pm news releases?
I'm glad to see that at least part of the market is finally working correctly
What prescience, sir!
Ya, that's part 1. The tricky part is what number to put on the balance sheet once you move it. Mark to reality, or fantasy land, or is it just not knowable yet? Should be interesting.
Hey, it hasn't been done yet. Not til 4:01pm Friday afternoon. Probably with another 10% workforce cut and another 10 billion from the Middle East at 11.5% interest...
UPDATE 1-Citi to consolidate SIVs onto balance sheet
| Reuters
A little bit more here
Found the press release
Cal, I'm unable to open that link. Is it just me?
jg, a new CEO gets about 6 months to blame the problems on his predecessor. Then the honeymoon is over. Pandit probably saw huge losses coming - why wait? Blame them on Prince and move on.
Best Wishes.
Fine, my link didnt work, search businesswire.com for Citigroup and you will find it.
Here is the release:
"NEW YORK--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Citi announced today that it has committed to provide a support facility that will resolve uncertainties regarding senior debt repayment currently facing the Citi-advised Structured Investment Vehicles (SIVs).
This action is a response to the recently announced ratings review for possible downgrade by Moodys and S&P of the outstanding senior debt of the SIVs, and the continued reduction of liquidity in the SIV related asset-backed commercial paper and medium-term note markets. These markets are the traditional funding sources for the SIVs. Citis actions today are designed to support the current ratings of the SIVs senior debt and to allow the SIVs to continue to pursue their current orderly asset reduction plan. As a result of this commitment, Citi will consolidate the SIVs assets and liabilities onto its balance sheet under applicable accounting rules.
Several key factors further contributed to Citis decision to make this commitment:
The SIVs continue to successfully pursue alternative funding strategies, primarily asset reductions, to meet maturing debt obligations. The SIV assets (net of cash and cash equivalents) have been reduced from $87 billion in August 2007 to $49 billion currently, while maintaining the overall high credit quality of the portfolio. Citi expects orderly asset reductions will be sufficient to meet liquidity requirements through the end of 2008, which currently total $35 billion. Consequently, Citi expects little or no funding requirement from the facility.
As assets continue to be sold, Citis risk exposure, and the capital ratio impact from consolidation, will be reduced accordingly.
Given the high credit quality of the SIV assets, Citis credit exposure under its commitment is substantially limited. Approximately 54% of the SIV assets are rated triple-A and 43% double-A by Moodys, with no direct exposure to sub-prime assets and immaterial indirect sub-prime exposure of $51 million. In addition, the junior notes, which have a current market value of $2.5 billion, are in the first loss position.
Taking into account this commitment, Citi still expects to return to its targeted capital ratios by the end of the second quarter of 2008. Based on September 30, 2007 capital ratio disclosures and applying the current asset levels in the SIVs, the estimated impact of this action would have been approximately 16 basis point decline in the Tier 1 capital ratio and approximately 12 basis point decline in the TCE/RWMA ratio.
Our team has made great progress managing the SIVs in a very difficult environment. After considering a full range of funding options, this commitment is the best outcome for Citi and the SIVs, said Vikram Pandit, Citis Chief Executive Officer.
The terms of this committed facility will be finalized in early 2008 and will reflect market te
As I predicted, SPE spewing back onto balance sheets.
Watch for the 5 o'clock confessional tomorrow and every Friday for the next six months.
How can any sane individual buy a homebuilder at this point in time?
Someday this war's gonna end...
The commitment is independent of the Master Liquidity Enhancement Conduit (M-LEC). Citi continues to support the formation of the M-LEC, which is an initiative that involves Citi and other financial institutions.
Attached are additional fact sheets regarding the SIVs and the committed support facility.
Citi, the leading global financial services company, has some 200 million customer accounts and does business in more than 100 countries, providing consumers, corporations, governments and institutions with a broad range of financial products and services, including consumer banking and credit, corporate and investment banking, securities brokerage, and wealth management. Citis major brand names include Citibank, CitiFinancial, Primerica, Smith Barney and Banamex. Additional information may be found at Citi - Home or citi.com
Certain statements in this document are "forward-looking statements" within the meaning of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act. These statements are based on management's current expectations and are subject to uncertainty and changes in circumstances. Actual results may differ materially from those included in these statements due to a variety of factors. More information about these factors is contained in Citigroup's filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
ADDITIONAL FACTS ON THE CITI-ADVISED SIVs
Profile of the SIV assets and liabilities as of December 12, 2007:
Average Credit Quality (1,2)
Average Asset Mix Aaa Aa A
Financial Institutions Debt 60% 14% 43% 3%
Sovereign Debt 1% 1%
Structured Finance:
MBS Non-U.S. residential 12% 12%
CBOs, CLOs, CDOs 6 6
MBS U.S. residential 7 7
CMBS 3 3
Student loans 5 5
Credit cards 5 5
Other 1 1
Total Structured Finance 39% 39%
Total Assets 100% 54% 43% 3%
The weighted average maturity of the assets is 3.7 years
(1) Based on Moodys ratings.
(2) The SIVs have no direct exposure to U.S. sub-prime assets and have approximately $51 million of indirect exposure to sub-prime assets through CDOs which are AAA rated and carry credit enhancements.
Amount Outstanding Average Rating Average Maturity
Commercial Paper $10B A-1+/P-1 2.4 months
Medium Term Notes 48B AAA/Aaa 10.1 months
OTHER INFORMATION
Through asset reductions, the SIVs have partially repaid the previously disclosed $10 billion commitment to purchase commercial paper. As a result, Citi now holds $7.2 billion of commercial paper issued by the SIVs as of December 12, 2007. Citi expects the SIVs to fully repay the commercial paper at or before the last maturity date in mid-March 2008. Following the final maturity date, the new facility is expected to be the sole commitment by Citi to the SIVs.
The Citi-advised SIVs
Cal, thanks. What is the purpose of the M-LEC? Weird.
Best Wishes.
...long live the superSIV!
"Citi continues to support the formation of the M-LEC, which is an initiative that involves Citi and other financial institutions."
There's a big whiff of "this is the politically prudent thing to say, we don't actually mean it" emanating from that statement.
I mean, what's the point, now?
Um, ah, oh.
Financial institution debt 60%.
Isn't that a lovely high concentration. Hmmmmm.
Whose debt?
Commercial Paper $10B A-1+/P-1 2.4 months- wow in 3 months they hope to be out of this- good luck!!!
Medium Term Notes 48B AAA/Aaa 10.1 months 10 months for this?
Okay, yeh, sure.
Someday this war's gonna end...
Well if they get any support from the MLEC it'll be that much less pressure on their balance sheet wouldn't it? It would also give more time to sell the assets.
what Basel II risk level do you apply to the SIV assets? Were these already accounted for at 100% credit conversion factor, i.e. as if they were on balance sheet?
M-LEC is for the mortgage based toxic paper- this stuff is not the MBS paper.
Like I said, um, wow, oh, ummm.
The next couple of days is going to be interesting.
Someday this war's gonna end...
..or as the French might say...
Le superSIV est mort..
Vive le superSIV!
Should there be any lingering doubt, M-LEC was in fact an onomatopoeia, not an acronym.
Obituary for Super Siv:
Caring, loving friend of fraudulent bankers, died suddenly last night of natural causes. Mr. SIV, the illegitimate child of Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson, lived short, yet spirited life. His most noted accomplishments were the painful and successful squeezing of short sellers, and perhaps his crowning achievement, to delay the discovery of faultily priced MBS.
WSJ article is up:
Citigroup Alters Course, Bails Out Affiliated Funds - WSJ.com
I've added the WSJ story. The M-LEC is most likely dead - as King Peasant noted, supporting the M-LEC was probably just politics.
Pandit is doing the right thing. But this will probably put significant pressure on the dividend.
Best to all.
I am not so for sure about the ramifications of this news. In today's bizarro world, I bet this is seen as great news and the market will skyrocket tomorrow. It will be spun in such a way that we are finally getting all this behind us. I think the pain will come once these assets have to be marked down.
perhaps the Super SIV did it's duty... bought time for Citi to replace Prince and also to unload the most dangerous of assets?
"The SIV assets (net of cash and cash equivalents) have been reduced from $87 billion in August 2007 to $49 billion currently, while maintaining the overall high credit quality of the portfolio."
In the end, this is all HSBC's fault...
weren't they the first bank that took large SIV's on balance sheet?
once that was done, it was "put up or shut up" time.
the other banks don't really have a chance now...
what we need is more govt ineptitude so that this can continue sorting itself out without meddling.
sigh
Plus Citi gets to borrow money at the auction on Monday.
With all three of the recent rescue proposals (M-LEC, Hope Now and TAF) there sure seems to be a lot of fast-paced improvisation going on. And the players don't all seem to be playing from the same score. This sounds more like Ornette Coleman than Duke Ellington. If this were music I'd be fine with that, but this ain't music, and I'm starting to get a little worried. Can somebody play me a ballad?
very good news, if I might say so.
on the other hand, for the economy short-term, not so good.
Bloomberg has a higher estimate of how much Citi is bringing back - $58 Bil
Bloomberg.com:
News
Assuming 8% cap ratio, this extra debt needs $4-5 Bil in capital support
I read that Citi is going to use the 40ik money of their remaining employees as the capital infusion it needs now that this stuff is coming onto the balance sheet. I'm kidding!
Still, this will be spun as positive early tomorrow with a slow bleed from about 11am into the close. Will we make to the end of the year after all?
Who's going to buy this crap?
"Assuming 8% cap ratio, this extra debt needs $4-5 Bil in capital support"
Piece of cake. They can just hold out their hand and get $4-5B in no time.
I think Anonymous is right, that it will be seen as good news. And besides, this is what we all thought was the right thing to do also.
Just last week Pandit told the CNBC anchoress that the dividend would be maintained. I really do not see how they can do that ... Or rather, I do not see how they can do that in any way that is better for shareholders than simply cutting the dividend.
But it sounds like their A-Rab masters are hell bent against a dividend cut, so maybe some more oil money is poised to come home and take bite out of the big C.
AllenM --
How can any sane individual buy a homebuilder at this point in time?
Actually, now is exactly the right time to buy a homebuilder, if you can find the right one to buy. Whoever survives this carnage will be in a perfect position to acquire their competitors' assets at absolute fire sale prices. The trick is to identify who that will be, and to avoid whoever is going bankrupt.
The time to invest in a sector is precisely when everyone "knows" you would have to be crazy to invest in that sector. We are very close to that point for the homebuilders, IMO.
I myself am very close to pulling the trigger on MDC. I will probably wait until the first major goes BK...
Of course this would happen after I sold my Citigroup Dec puts at around 1pm today.
Actually, i can't tell whether that's good or bad yet.
In Memory of M-Lec:
YouTube - Sesame Street - Somebody Come and Play (original)
"Who's going to buy this crap?"
That's not too hard too. Who bought the other $20 - $30 B of stuff. Some hedge fund they indirectly made special, legal, deals with.
Plus Citi gets to borrow money at the auction on Monday.
Oooo, good point. What are the odds the timing here is not coincidence, and the reason to bring these SIV assets on-balance-sheet is to use them as collateral at the TAF?
Nah, too conspiracy-ish. So much going on all at once making me see patterns in the noise.
emo - "How can any sane individual buy a homebuilder at this point in time?
Actually, now is exactly the right time to buy a homebuilder, if you can find the right one to buy."
Are you serious. How does four or five years of ARM resets, foreclosures, and rising inventory not keep knocking down EVERY home builder for the next several years. Those homebuilders are no where near bottoming -- even the 'good' ones.
< jg, a new CEO gets about 6 months to blame the problems on his predecessor. Then the honeymoon is over. Pandit probably saw huge losses coming - why wait? Blame them on Prince and move on.>
You say the "honeymoon" is over in six months?
I'll bet it's "GAME OVER FOR CITIGROUP" in six months...
That SIV is gonna kill the DIV
as in C's dividend. Buh bye.
I think you'll hear about significant cost cutting measures - which means a large RIF - coupled with a dividend cut. Look for Citi to start offering higher rates on 3 month, 6 month, 1 yr CD's and savings accounts a la CFC. in an attempt to grow cash on hand.
CR nailed it - Pandits got a 6 month honeymoon - he's going to clean house and blame it on the dancing guy.
"CR nailed it - Pandits got a 6 month honeymoon - he's going to clean house and blame it on the dancing guy."
But it's so sad that that should mean anything at all. Why should blame have any effect on what the company should or shouldn't do? It's sad if such important decisions at such a large and powerful company are being made based on 'blame' or a 6 month 'honeymoon'.
Obviously it's all in the details. How did they get from $87b to $49b, how good are the remaining $49b, and I assume they also have $49 billion in new liabilities.
I'm betting C will go up on the news. I'm sure that new management wants to throw in the kitchen sink, but there isn't enough capital.
Predictions for Tomorrow :
1) CPI number will be benign, possibly very benign. The clowns at the BLS are working overtime this week engineering the CPI numbers. The prices of 24" LCD monitors just dropped again, and 24" LCD monitors are being overweighted for this month's spin, because it has transpired that consumers shop for one every month.
2) The Dow skyrocket at least 300 points on the news, and the S&P goes up at least 2%, in anticipation of more rate cuts at the fed.
It is amazing how things run in rythm with C. First Basel II, then the anon borrowers, then the SIV on the books.
The new guy will take all the hits now, make big mgmt changes, probably sell some buz areas, cancel the dividend. And, in three years all looks great 'cause they are still in business and dividend returns.
I'm with AllenM:
"Um, ah, oh.
Financial institution debt 60%.
Isn't that a lovely high concentration. Hmmmmm."
Has the music stopped and is C trying to find a vacant chair?
O/T but in line: NRK to be nationalized before yearend...In my opinion, anyway. Minyans currently drafting legislation according the FT.
My gut is telling me there are some big wobbly banks right about now and all Feds do not want to see a bank run aka NKN.
Oh please CR can we pls have another ABX chart tomorrow? Nothing better than a good cup of java on a Friday watching the finest rated poop go south
ba_lurker - given the tracking of oil prices and the cpi, there is no believable way the CPI can come in cool tomorrow. As for the Dow, prepare for a major whipsaw day. It will make yesterday look like a day in the park. And the day after tomorrow, well, that will look like a bucket of sh....
CR,
I thought we got this straight. These are not the SIV's assets. They are the SIV's liabilities. Right?
I think some folks here need to face the risk that they have become overly negative, refusing to see positive steps staring them in the face:
1) Citi cut the problem in half ($100B -> $50B) through asset sales matched with retiring CP, before they even got to this point.
2) There have not, are not now, and will not be "fire sales" of SIV assets - I'm sure Citi isn't happy with the prices they've been getting, but the stuff is moving.
3) Citi will maintain Tier 1 ratios without undue heroics. IMHO, I expect no dividend cut and one more moderate capital raising event sometime next year, and even that may not be needed depending on operating earnings next few quarters. I predict the Morgan Stanley analyst for Citi, Betsy Graseck, will look foolish in less than 3 months.
Call me a blue-sky fool, if you will, but check all those "cliff-diving" charts at Markit, first...
I think it's time for some CR/Tanta analysis of numerous recent tea leaves along the lines of "holy crap! the world may not end after all!" Those expecting the Great Depression of 2007 - 2033 may need to get their time machines to a mechanic...
rich,
I take it to mean both. The SIV was borrowing short in the ABCP market and lending long by investing in MBS's, CDO's etc.
Are you serious. How does four or five years of ARM resets, foreclosures, and rising inventory not keep knocking down EVERY home builder for the next several years. Those homebuilders are no where near bottoming -- even the 'good' ones.
Good point! And I bet you are the only person in the entire world to have noticed! Time to short 'em all...
Unless a company is going BK, there exists some price at which it is a good (or great) idea to buy -- no matter how bad the business is about to become.
For any particular homebuilder, you should know enough about valuation to say what that price is, given your own assumptions about ARM resets etc. Otherwise, how can you know whether the stock is "cheap" or "expensive"?
They are not all worth zero, even in the worst case.
Pandit will blame the dancing guy, and rightly so. Pandit's first move was bold. I'm impressed.
Jerome-
you are correct, people are far too over-the-edge, this is due to the increase in morons with blogs.
This is very good near-term news, solely due to the realization that we are working towards measures that will ultimately lead to solutions.
That said, as discussed previously, balance sheets and the availability of credit are going to contract much further and that is not good for growth prospects.
If you have a 5 minute time horizon, crack the lemon chello, if it is longer, well, take a long nap.
lemon chello? LOL. YM, limoncello, as in the italian drink?
Jerome Ball, you're probably right in the short term, but were you also one of those that said none of these current problems were going to occur and that all of these doom and gloomers here were overly pessimistic? How many of the professionals predicted the current mess? How many have changed the predictions now? How many predictions will get worse next month and the months after?
We'll see.
Carlomagno-
yeah, yeah, that stuff!!!!
You can tell I am a big drinker!
OK. Something I don't understand here. How could creating M-LEC and this news be both good for Citi and the market? If it's so great, why haven't they done it in the first place? Why push M-LEC?
Jerome Ball > I think C might stumble big time; but, it will not be catastrophic. More assets will have to be liquidated to preserve the ratios and any additional money as in cash would have to come from the homeland. Right now there is more risk in the collective than benefit of the whole. I think Prince had a good strat. but the failure to execute and, well lets say non-harmoious dis-functional internal relationships of the underlying groups had its challenges. The rule is to buy and conquer not buy and blend. The exercise now is to know what to fold. In this the Board may have made a good choice (imho).
So does Citi go bye bye before CW & WM? Is any of the gambling world putting numbers up yet? There could be more money in this game than WS in the future.
jo6pac
poszi...come on. You must have known that MLEC was a PR stunt to buy time for today's announcement (or one similar). Did it EVER make any sense? No one was able to explain how it would even work.
poszi, you're talking as if things actually made sense in this market! This volitility is all about PERCEPTION of the immediate news -- none of it is about reality or long term investments, etc., or else it wouldn't be so volitile.
I think tomorrow's market reaction will very much depend on what type of news we get on the financing front. Citi already sold a good chunk, and looks like it must have someone waiting in the wings to break the good side of the news (the $$$ - infusion baby yeh!!!!) This will play first, then we'll get the $ call. Just like Ben and the boys - cut 25 bp, test reaction, then no likey-like, release the hounds (coordinated useless Central Bank policy). All financial actions must have their corresponding PR wingman along for the ride.
Tomorrow could also have a negative reaction to worthless hack Magoo's pronouncement today that odds of a recession are increasing . . .
and in my book, that means the old scoundrel is 100% positive it's on the way.
Jerome Ball, you're right, this is the last of the bad news! Now for the slow turnaround. Kewl.
49 billion or 58 billion - who cares? Them's a lot of billions.
Given the months of contortions to keep the sludge OFF the balance sheet, how can this be spun as favorable to C?
I tend to doubt this is priced in, although the market reaction after hours was muted.
worthless hack Magoo is far too kind for that s(*tbag. His revisionist history lesson the other day made my blood boil. I wish he'd just go away.
BTW, the FT put the Citi news well below the topline, and it was not spun at all as good news.
OT
I'm feeling the yen breaking away from the year-long inverse relationship with speculative stocks. It's not happening like I thought, and I can't figure it out, but I'm not going to fight it. Something else is crushing the yen besides carry.
At the same time, I'm feeling structural weakness in emerging markets. Today, I sold all my yen (FXY) and shorted emerging (EUM). I don't feel confident enough yet to ultra short emerging markets. But I'm hoping to at some point. I think ulta short emerging and China will be the best investment idea for all of 2008.
GaudiaRay and Jerome - this is good news only to the extent you believe that everyone else can bring these #s to the balance sheet, AND that the numbers are believable, AND that it helps unfreeze the markets.
Problem 1 with that is that even if credit loosens a bit, it's not loosening for the ridiculous loans lent in the Res housing market the past few years, so collateral is going to be worth quite possibly a great deal less than people think.
Also, is there enough $ floating around to recapitalize the various idiots out there that have been unwilling to bring this stuff into the light? Not so sure how that works out.
Next, does the fact that Citi does it materially change things? I mean, all of the sudden are we going to see everyone else step up to the plate? Beats me.
Still lots of unknowns and the longer the ugliness of this remains in the dark, the worse things get in terms of the impact on investment.
Countrywide Financial said on Thursday foreclosures had doubled in November, while late payments continued to rise amid the US subprime housing crisis
FT.com / Financials - Countrywide doubles foreclosures
Hmm, so basically the Super SIV's sole purpose was to fool the markets into a sense of false complacency? We're just supposed to forget the 300 point rally in the Dow that resulted from the announcement?
Go capitalism!
CB applauds Pandit's decision.
If this crisis is to be resolved in a timely manner, the other banks need to do the same to minimize the damage.
From the shriveled myopic satan himself:
- NY Times
"CB applauds Pandit's decision."
If the CB applauds this decision, why don't they encourage EVERYONE to mark-to-market EVERY bad loan and debt out there instead of coming up with ways to prevent that very thing?
All three companies clearly have financial issues. But at Countrywide, I think it's deeper.
The signs are starting to point to systematic fraud at Countrywide that might result in legal problems and regulatory penalties, maybe some jail time and permanent loss of reputation. I want to say...similar to Worldcom or Global Crossing. But not sure yet. I'm just getting vibes that Countrywide won't survive this.
The millions/billions bit is getting me to glaze over faster than a hot Holiday Rum Punch. There are 5 billion shares of Citigroup each worth $31. Think of this as $10/share rather $49 billion.
Me- If the CB applauds this decision, why don't they encourage EVERYONE to mark-to-market EVERY bad loan and debt out there instead of coming up with ways to prevent that very thing?
In the end, they're all going to do it because they'll have to. Sooner, however, would be better than later.
Hopefully, this Citi decision will everyone else to get off their dead asses and do it.
This is a good move for the long term but it will hurt in the short term. Citi's gonna have to raise more capital (at lower prices) and cut the dividend. But, for the long term, this is probably a good move because it says that Citi will stand behind its poop. Also, as CR noted, Pandit can take the losses and blame it on prince for a while. Why not just clean house and get a fresh start? Makes sense to me. But it's gonna be painful for current shareholders for a while.
O/T While we consider the future of C, lets watch Insurers...Insurers are now insuring there insurance to pass along risk (nothing against reinsurance but what the heck is at risk?):
"Ambac Financial Group Inc., struggling to avoid the crippling loss of its AAA credit rating, took out insurance on $29 billion in securities it guarantees"...
and
We're heading into maybe the most turbulent few weeks the bond insurers have ever seen,'' said Matt Fabian, a senior analyst and managing director at Municipal Market Advisors, an independent research firm in Concord, Massachusetts.There could be some very serious numbers floating around before Christmas
Ambac Reinsures $29 Billion Portfolio to Keep Rating (Update4) - Bloomberg.com
Seriously, let's do the solvency numbers.
Citi's Equity + Yearly Profits - MLEC, Jr aka CitiSIV Obligations (current + probable assuming the trend in housing, as in anvil through the cheesecloth flooring, continues) [yes, that's an algebraic minus for those with an optomistic bent] - [algabraic, of course] CRE loans and other asset wonders populating Citi's balance sheet + next year's profits [to help stay above zero] equals what??
As solvency has been explained here when at zero and below to not be equal to bankruptcy proceedings, it appears Citi is insolvent without additional contributions from gigantic depositors who don't want their deposits to drop by much more than their newly-come-to-Citi-spirituality equity positions, and this all means more avoidance of stark reality...
...and here it is.
Loan:Equity ratios dropping when looked at objectively
Disgorgement of profitable assets as the garbage is unsellable at anything other than insolvency prices.
Major, though temporary, slam to the credibility and trustworthiness of Citi. Twisting the GS-man Paulson's arm to support a chimera and a recognized fraud by omission and comission, the MLEC, has severely damaged the credibility of Paulson and the integrity of the US Treasury in the eyes of the entire financial world. Pandit is not the white knight. Truth telling is not a virtue; it's a legal requirement.
A stunningly unsafe business environment for the next 3 years while the US RE prices, residential and commercial, continue to return to yield-positive pricing...which means Citi ain't gonna find investments to earn what it needs or did in the last 15 years.
As I've posted before, Citi is BK, based on the magical formula of 2 + 2 = 4.
Right now, Pandit has arrived with his handbag full of lipstick and he's painting the pig.
And here is tomorrow's news on Northern Rock. Geezz does this sound familiar - I'll have to go scroll up in the comments section? There is no blood* way they wait 'till the year end. My guess December 19th. Remember this is the UK's 5th largest bank/lender.
"The government was last night preparing a contingency plan for a possible new year nationalisation of Northern Rock as it held last-ditch talks with the potential buyers of the stricken bank.
Ministers have reluctantly concluded that temporary state ownership may prove the only way to prevent a final collapse of the Newcastle-based lender.
In a bid to keep the private sector option alive, they agreed last night to give the bid from former Abbey National boss Luqman Arnold equal status to preferred bidder Virgin, amid fears that Richard Branson has been struggling to finalise a deal"
Ministers prepare plan to nationalise Northern Rock |
Business |
The Guardian
"and he's painting the pig" LOL!!
GaudiaRay- "Right now, Pandit has arrived with his handbag full of lipstick and he's painting the pig."
Sure, it's quite likely Citi will have to be bailed. What's the alternative? Let it fail?
The lessons should have been re-learned almost twenty years ago, but they weren't. Bankers, mortgage brokers and real estate people should be going to prison right now, but it won't happen.
So, we taxpayers are going to bail out Citi and a bunch of others like it. Conjure considers it a cost of doing business.
What else should he do GaudiaRay? Just close up shop and go home? This is what we've all been saying is the right thing to do, and now they've done it. We'll see what the consequences are, short term and long term, sometime in the future. Tomorrow's market reaction actually means NOTHING, because we all know that it will all be forgotten by Monday, and stock prices will be reacting to some different news, up or down.
mp, who the hell is this "Conjure" you keep mentioning?
Me- "mp, who the hell is this "Conjure" you keep mentioning?"
I am referring to Conjure Bag, who is well-known by this forum. He is powered by toad bones and ground-up dog balls.
OT
"At the same time, I'm feeling structural weakness in emerging markets. Today, I sold all my yen (FXY) and shorted emerging (EUM). I don't feel confident enough yet to ultra short emerging markets."
been 2x short for awhile now, the SSEC is below 5K, BVSP took a dump today, will be a wild ride, good luck!
ahh, at last an origin story for Conjure Bag! and made me laugh out loud to boot.
Now if only we could learn the secret identity of Tennis_8 . . . though I suspect T_8 comes from lesser stock.
There are a lot of numbers being thrown around: $58 bil, $49 bil, $100 bil...
From the Bloomberg article it looks like the following is what these refer to:
Citi group has 7 SIVs that collectively have:
$58 billion in senior debt
$49 billion in assets (without cash)
$62 billion in assets (with cash)
The article states that these assets of $62 billion are declined from $87 billion in August
It looks like $105 billion is the amount of SIV debt Moody's said on Dec 3rd it is preparing to cut ratings on.
Fellow bloggers, the IB's and commercial B's have gamed the world's economies.
They have seriously damaged the future security of millions of people who depend on their communal savings institutions to protect their stores of value.
Now I'm not talking about a sociopath like tanman who sold loans to fraudsters and who knew totally what the downside looked like; he's white trash as far as I see it.
I'm talking about the square mile and wall street well heeled and well educated who clearly understood the consequences of their churn & burn behavior.
Every one of those people could have claimed the high moral ground and refused to be "in". Instead, they whored themselves out of unvarnished greed, and they built a derivatives pyramid standing on its pointy head.
What do I want? I want the feds and the eurocrats to do just what they did to Arthur Andersen. There are plenty of other banks who will fill the shoes of Citi. There's nothing special about Citi or Wells or NR or any of them. There's nothing special about Bear Stearns or Merrill.
Their employees will find jobs in the companies who buy up the pieces of these fraudulent companies. Fraud by omission is real. They failed to disclose because disclosure of risk, other than in legalese, and I was one of those monkeys, would have been a deal-breaker. It's like AA failing to audit obviously risky assets.
Bust'em. And create in the world's remaining financial community a sense of fear that they will get wiped out too if they fail to disclose, in their chase for the golden ring.
Nobody will care but for the major depositors who are unfortunately not FDIC insured.
Failure to cleanse this gaming table of this ilk will do nothing but extend the new game of hide the garbage, yet another unproductive allocation of resources and time.
Some things are just beyond science, and Conjure is in that category.
I've tried sacrificing goats, like Nepal Airlines did recently for one of their Boeing 757s with electrical trouble. They sacrificed two of them and the airplane started right up.
It worked for them, but goats won't work for me.
To each his own. I guess.
Nemo,
The problem with buying the builders now, beyond the BK risk, is that their best years are behind them. It is mistaken to think that KB, LEN, TOL, or others are growth stocks. They are cyclical value plays, if anything.
The profit margins and P/E ratios of these stocks during the period 2003-2006 were IMO huge anomalies that will never be repeated. The bubble of a lifetime has come and gone; there will be a recovery someday but not to the insane levels we just had.
I took a hard look at buying some SPF on the odd chance it doesn't go BK; at the time SPF was trading around $4. I passed because I did some analysis and while it may not go BK, it probably will stay in the sub $10 range for many years to come. For that kind of risk you are better off getting a high-yield muni or better yet go with some growth stocks in other sectors.
We just had the more insane housing bubble in history, and it while the crash won't last forever, I believe it will never be repeated in our lifetimes at least.
Tis true that virtually all of the SIV assets are of better quality. The really stinky, stinky, stinky stuff is festering in the CDOs and ABCP conduits.
Mortgages, credit cards, trade receivables, auto loans.
We will start hearing this story very soon.
ooops!
Sorry for the anon post.
central scrutinizer- "The problem with buying the builders now, beyond the BK risk, is that their best years are behind them."
Conjure and I agree completely. Residential construction is going to be a wasteland for several more years at least.
Why not take a look at another industry that's full of greed and corruption, like health care. It's also a potentially interesting defensive play.
Oh, sorry, I forgot to mention government mandates.
What's better than government mandates, greed and corruption?
Our own national health service, like they have in the UK?
Gary- "Our own national health service, like they have in the UK?"
Better for you maybe, but not for the people who handle the money.
Mortgages, credit cards, trade receivables, auto loans.
We will start hearing this story very soon.
Anonymous | 12.13.07 - 9:08 pm | #
Yes, indeed. The big picture is ignored as each data point comes out and argued over. But. . .
Increased forclosures, high loan to income values for homes, increased bankruptcies due to medical expenses, longer terms and more total amount financed for car purchases, rolling over debt from previous car purchases, multiyear negative savings rate, decreased benefits, increased cost of energy and food, HELOCs, corporate debt, government debt, individual debt, loss of work benefits, decreased health and higher obesity, increased credit card usage, decaying infrastructure, highest all time debt to GDP ratios, overall lack of trust in institutions, expensive and counterproductive wars, corrupt and incompetent financial and political leadership. . . and on and on.
You can argue over each data point but taken together the picture is very very ominous.
I've heard commentators wax poetic about how the United States has the most transparent financial system in the world, staffed by the brightest people in the world.
And everybody makes money.
The interesting thing is that, once people start losing money, they learn that the system is more corrupt than they thought it was.
Human nature being what is, with corruption everywhere, the United States has been able to ignore the problem because everybody was making money and say 'we're unique.'
Well, we're not unique, and maybe some of us are beginning to understand that not all banana republics lie south of the border.
Waiting to buy builders seems a tad like waiting to get back into real estate speculation. I just get the feeling that real estate and its supporting cast will create such a black eye/broken leg/concussion for the economy that it will be shunned for many years. Without speculators, real estate appreciation won't do that well, and neither will builders it would seem.
Hopefully, this Citi decision will everyone else to get off their dead asses and do it.
The reason Citi (Prince) put it off so long was to save bonuses... The new guy is on a different mission with different metrics (a least for now) so could afford to do it (as CR said do it fast 'before the honeymoon is over').
That's one of the perverse aspects of tying management compensation to short term 'results'. Screws the future to reward the present. They need more balanced scoring if they ever expect to avoid this kinda crap in the future.
What's better than government mandates, greed and corruption?
Casinos.
And what's better than casinos? Gov't owned casinos.
I'm near Chicago tonight and was listening to the news - Chicago is close to opening a city owned casino. What would Al Capone say?
You can tell I am a big drinker!
Truthfully? We were already able to tell before that
dryfly- "They need more balanced scoring if they ever expect to avoid this kinda crap in the future."
Absolutely.
It will be smaller entrepreneurial builders who lead the recovery in homebuilding.
The big HBs need a combination of financing, landbank and organization to make their model work, and they won't have it. New big public builders will be built over time from the ground up.
Inevitable!
"Citigroups new chief executive Vikram Pandit has charged chief financial officer Gary Crittenden with leading a review of the banks structure and cost base in the clearest sign yet that tens of thousands of job cuts are on the cards"
The PR machine is in overdrive. wow.
Citigroup job cuts may be in tens of thousands - Telegraph
That was fast:
Moody's lowers Citigroup's ratings senior to Aa3 from Aa2
New York, December 13, 2007 -- Moody's Investors Service downgraded the long-term ratings of Citigroup Inc. (Citigroup) (senior to Aa3 from Aa2) and lowered the Bank Financial Strength Rating (BFSR) of Citibank, N.A. (Citibank) to B from A-. The rating on Citibank for long-term deposits and senior debt was lowered to Aa1 from Aaa. The rating outlook is stable.
The downgrade was prompted by Moody's view that Citigroup's capital ratios will remain low. According to Senior Vice President Sean Jones, "this situation is likely because management will need to take sizable write-downs against its subprime RMBS and CDO portfolio." The bank is also expected to make significant sustained provisions against its residential mortgage book, which is over $200 billion. These charges are likely to occur when Citigroup's normal earnings power is depressed, particularly in the United States.
how did they reduce their toxic siv stuff from $87 to $49 bil?
I think this is definitely good news for Citi. It 1) shows that Pandit is paying some attention to reality and is trying to fix things and 2) implies Citi can handle the losses.
While Citi may need a bailout, remember there are at least 3 entities willing and able to bailout the banking system. The US Government, of course, could fix all the US bank losses with less than Bush spends every year in Iraq, and it would actually do us good. The Chinese and Arabs are sitting on hundreds of billions in dollars they'll never be able to sell and dependent on the continued functioning of the US economy. Deals a la Abu Dhabi or even at less favorable terms make a lot of sense for them - they get something for dollars that will otherwise sit uselessly forever in their vaults. By showing it will play ball, Citi makes itself suitable for a bailout.
What would Al Capone say?
That he was born too soon.
Asia markets currently Red, not impressed with all this negative talk about their main squeeze, U.S.A.
Big banks in trouble, consumer tapped out-not the kind of news you want to hear if you are running a manufacturing plant in Asia or Germany for that matter.
In terms of who goes first, my bet is on Countrywide. Wamu and Citi have just thrown in the towel on denying losses, so they are at least attempting to cope with reality. Countrywide is still expecting a whole herd of ponies, and accordingly it's continuing to make toxic loans (notably home equity and option ARMS). Countrywide's continued existence hurts the system in a way that Wamu's and Citi's don't, so the feds will be much more lenient to Wamu and Citi. It's the feds that actually shut these things down; they always have leeway to bend the rules.
dryfly- "...Chicago is close to opening a city owned casino."
I read about that. Fabulous idea. I've no doubt that Chicago will teach Vegas a thing or two about how to skim.
They've had plenty of experience.
mp,
HAD to jump downthread - not to mention the high octane influence of Scrooge McDuck cartoons!
Thanks Dryfly
Let the betting pools of who standing at the end begin. This is my thought, is Citi to big to go bye-bye I don't care and let them and all the others B/S,WM,CW and who ever else. Soon they will join blue collar and soon white collar with out jobs. Walmart will be like shopping at Macys for this crowd.
jo6pac
Thanks CR/Tanta for the info
Off to have pie and watch Buffy.
The plot thickens
RPT-Moody's cuts Citi debt, warns of further downgrade
| Reuters
This is nothing new.
Economic Scene; Citicorp's Step: Mixed Effects - The New York Times
$3.5 billion in 1987
Barley- "The PR machine is in overdrive. wow."
Only in America. In the '20s, guys like Harry Klemfuss (Young and Rubicam) used the death of Rudolph Valentino to persuade Americans, and the rest of the so-called civilized world, to RENT HALLS (funeral homes) to display their dead loved ones. Harry also gave us National Secretary's Day to honor those hardworking gals and, by the way, benefit his client, the national florists. Congress institutionalized it.
PR and advertising is the one industry where Americans truly excel, even beyond high tech. No one can match us at slinging bullshit.
The Economist's solution for Citi:
"Mr Pandit has even thornier problems to resolve. Doubts about Citi's sprawling business model and disparate internal cultures predated the credit crunch: the bank's shares performed anaemically throughout Mr Prince's tenure. But diversification seems to have multiplied Citi's woes. Given the continuing questions about its capital base, the case for a break-up looks stronger than it didalthough size has its own benefits, not least making institutions too big to fail. Mr Pandit, true to his reputation, is not going to rush any decisions. But sooner or later, more surgery looks inevitable."
They counted the 'reserves' as part of capital.
3 1/2 billion was a lot of money.
"This is nothing new.
The New York Times > Member Center > Site Help > Server Error ful...756C0A961948260
$3.5 billion in 1987
Zigurrat | 12.13.07 - 10:14 pm"
That was almost exactly 5 months before the Black Monday!
CFC, CITI,WaMu, what market will they be serving? what will be the new business plan? Who will be their new competitors?
Once they have layed off the x number of employee's, closed offices world wide, etc, then what?
They will find competition to be extreme in any market segment that they attempt to go after, which will require more capital, new smarter people resources need to be attracted, loyal customers to be won. While they struggle to find new business their old asset base will continue to deflate with lower RE values causing more capital flight.
I see dead companies.
I've tried sacrificing goats
Was it totally black? Not a single white hair? And the ceremonial wreath, were those flowers fresh? You can't be too careful when you need to appease the gods.
Slightly more on track, saw a mention that Countrywide wasn't evicting delinquent borrowers. Not saying that I'd quit paying the mortgage, but it's another sign they're stuffed to the gills with foreclosures. I'll try and track down the link if I get time.
Just my guess for C:
14% staff reductions, 9% immediate, and a 1.8B charge, this Q for restructuring.
This would be a whomping wet blanket. But good for ratings and the share price.
There. Next please.
Let Citi go bankrupt. The sun will come up tomorrow and all bankers will become become true bankers again.
Sorry, off the C topic, but for Ron
Yes, Asian mkts have been red since super-Tuesday. But many say its overdone-- in this mornings local paper a pundit offers that Hong Kong stocks should be going to the moon what with the negative real rates the market will see. An unfortunate effect of HKs dollar peg is that any cuts stateside translate into (definitely un-needed) cuts to HK rates. Res property is going manic with bidding wars, queues to view, etc. But theres so much money! Were safe until the Olympics! seems to be the rejoinder to any scepticism. The parlous state of J6P is perceived on the producer side, but not so much (yet) on the punter side, at least in HK.
The government was last night preparing a contingency plan for a possible new year nationalisation of Northern Rock as it held last-ditch talks with the potential buyers of the stricken bank.
Venezuelan socialists nationalize profitable oilfields. Anglo-saxon capitalists nationalize failing banks.
Are the capitalists supposed to be smarter than the socialists?
"Venezuelan socialists nationalize profitable oilfields. Anglo-saxon capitalists nationalize failing banks".
A bad call on both sides, but expected of the socialists cause they're up front about it!
sdtfs- "Was it totally black? Not a single white hair? And the ceremonial wreath, were those flowers fresh?"
Damn. The ceremonial wreath.
Poor goat.
HOLY Cow.
Shit is coming to the surface.
Kou Jie,
Do you understand that a huge part of the trading volume in Asian emerging markets (outside China) is by leveraged hedge funds jockeying with each other, not domestic investors? It no longer has anything to do with anything sane or local. It's just a big casino where everyone is free to leave at any time.
Yeah Rich, and also that retail investors are baited here just as they are on CNBC!
with pork flavoured Kool-aid i might add...
Could be too early to make this call, but I believe foreign markets are showing signs of decoupling from the NYSE.
Heng Seng has had two 700-point drop days in a row and is already down another 200+ so far tonight. I think they've taken note of the financial sector problems in the U.S. and are reacting to that rather than the NYSE moving up 40 points.
So that didn't make much sense. But I think this quote says it all:
===========
"There's a real danger that this may not work. Both the Fed and the ECB have injected a lot of liquidity before, but the banks are hoarding it. We're still seeing all the signs of stress with Libor and the VIX [fear gauge] at very elevated levels. The reason is that people still don't know where the bodies are buried," he said. "This may be a Made-in-America credit crisis but the Americans have cleverly exported their sub-prime cancer to pension funds all over the world. The risk now is a recession on both sides of the Atlantic," he said.
Julian Jessop, chief economist at Capital Economics, said the move was stop-gap measure. "These measures should tide the markets through the potentially awkward New Year period but do not and cannot address the underlying imbalances threatening the world economy. Risk premiums are likely to remain permanently higher after the excesses of the last few years, and it will still be harder to obtain credit," he said.
Might world markets be selling off because the rest of the world feels stiffed by bad U.S. paper and is abandoning the American capitalist market format???? If I'm right, the rest of the world has begun their selloff which the U.S. will follow shortly later...
rich,
re: MBI
when insured muni bonds default does MBI take on interest pmts or interest AND principal? do they have to book any losses on the entire bond value? i've heard different things.
Bubba2Friday
why do u think the USD is strengthening? they're being repatriated by hedge funds and IB's.
which could explains rich's conundrum of a weakening yen.
idoc,
I understand that they are like other insurance companies in that they reserve against expected losses and then pay out claims from those reserves as insured bonds default on interest or principal. So, their earnings would show the impact sooner and their cash would take a hit later.
But they're just neophytes over there, right, Kou?
Not like here where they're highly experienced in markets and listen to what Cramer says.
The red in Asia is turning scarlet. I watch Taiwan for clues, because it's so ridiculous that a defenseless country that basically could be target practice for China's military machine has a stock market with an enormous P/E.
Tonight, Taiwan dropped through the all-important 8,000 resistance.
Oh, wait, I forgot. We are Taiwan's defense.
I'm wondering if everyone is really short C or have puts.
Or is this is just bluster.
They have lost 40% of their market cap over the last few months - $100 billion. So it's not like they haven't been punished.
They were buying back stock @ 50 share and recapitalizing @ 30/share.
Northern Rock to be "nationalised":
Ministers prepare plan to nationalise Northern Rock |
Business |
The Guardian
the best part of the krugman article? "David Brooks is off today". bu-dump!
the best part of the krugman article? "David Brooks is off today". bu-dump!
Yeah we got a guy who's into reality for a change. And reality is plenty scary. Still waiting for the Will E Coyote moment.
Citi's SIVs were set up as separate, bankruptcy-remote companies. The SIVs bought various kinds of paper from Citi customers, some long term, some short term, and Citi managed the SIVs. The SIVs funded themselves by issuing commercial paper and medium term notes. There was no accounting hanky-panky in any of this, it was all above board. What happened is the SIVs could no longer roll their short term paper, because no one trusted the ratings on the collateral held by the SIV. Much of that collateral is fairly illiquid, which is why the SIVs were created in the first place. Now, some SIVs of other banks---not Citi's---had backstop credit guarantees from their sponsors. For example, HSBC utimately was obligated to take its two SIVs onto its balance sheet under its credit guarantees. Citi had no obligation to take anything onto its balance sheet, but today it chose to do so either to, ahem, protect its reputation, or because various regulators put a gun to Citi's head after the MLEC couldn't be funded.
Since pension and money funds are holding a lot of this paper, Citi's action will help to contain at least a small part of the contagion.
Steve
Thanks for that.
Obviously whatever the legality here the vehicles were associated with Citi and had citi funding.
Naturally a person then expects citi to be behind them.
Slowly but surely the paper losses on credit are happening. Now for the next five years or so we get the real losses as all the expected foreclosures and defaults happen.
But the Fed's gonna cut 25 beeps next meeting so the markets will party like it's 1999.
Hi Worried,
Actually the vehicles didn't have Citi funding for their operations...but Citi did get paid nice fees for managing them. And no doubt Citi's sponsorship made it easier for these things to fund in the market, even if the prospectuses are crystal-clear that none of the debt was an obligation of Citigroup.
Since these SIVs have blown up, it's easy to forget that they provided cheap funding for activities out there in the real economy. And that funding is now very expensive, if it's available at all, which will have an impact in some businesses. It's the same thing with the implosion of the secondary market for mortgages: it's easy to find blame, but very hard to figure out how needed mortgages will be funded going forward.
Steve
"it's easy to find blame, but very hard to figure out how needed mortgages will be funded going forward."
Needed for who though? To save the system or to burdon the homebuyer who is better off renting.
The obvious solution if it can be managed is for home prices to become more affordable again.
It's the same thing with the implosion of the secondary market for mortgages: it's easy to find blame, but very hard to figure out how needed mortgages will be funded going forward.
Steve
Where is it written that there's an inherent right for the residents of the US to get a house for nearly free?
Where is it written that bad loans to stupid and greedy people are worth anything at all?
Write off the crap; toss the non-payers out; dump the REO's at what the market will pay; punish the fraud-by-omission-&-co-mission white color sociopaths; and start out small, once again on this wheel of economic life.
Ahem...instead the FDR game of adding more economic fuel to the fire is the new solution of the day. It will or will not work; and it will bump gold to the moon, thank you very much.
dotcommunist-
rotflmao (:
David Pearson has this exactly correct. The end result is a dramatic tightening of credit and far greater risk of recession.
The markets are disconnected from the reality of the situation at the moment. The fed funds rate is going much lower and yields will likely be depressed for a prolonged period.
The next shoe is commodities and hedge funds(couldn't happen to nicer people).
Tough period ahead, but, manageable.
This was a very good move by Citi, but, the economic implications are widespread.
"couldn't happen to nicer people" - and to theor investors.
One more thing-
for all you "the world is coming to an end types",
remember one thing, the "dead soldiers" will eventually all be lying below the enablers.
Misean said: I'm a Bills fan
I knew there was a reason I liked you, we'll see if Trent Edwards and the gang can get past the Browns. I'm cautiously optimistic, for a change.
Misean said: I'm a Bills fan
I knew there was a reason I liked you, we'll see if Trent Edwards and the gang can get past the Browns. I'm cautiously optimistic, for a change.
Tanta and CR are BIG TIME!
Everyone should read Krugman today!!
Downey's (DSL) 13 month data is out this morning. NPA jumped up to 3.65% - up 1% in the last month. NPA's are going vertical. Should be a fun day for the option arm lenders.
For those who might be interested, I have a few charts showing inflation vs. unemployment both before and after we fell off the gold standard.
Inflation vs. Unemployment
i know the citi is the biggest but i want a story on gs which seems the smartest...can we have thread on those $4B they made when everyone else was losing left and right?
p.s. no, i'm not ben stein's fa
"p.s. no, i'm not ben stein's fan"
Gretchen, honey, zat you dear?
Cause if it is, write your own shit, Tanta ain't likely playin.
iceman, I saw those numbers scary.
CR, You had a post last month charting DSL's NPA. Can you update that por favor, when you get a chance. Remarkable growth!
Congrats on the Krugman mention - you guys should sell tshirts!
CPI came in hot - 0.8% headline, 0.3% core.
"CPI came in hot - 0.8% headline, 0.3% core"
Core's a joke. It should be marginalized, since it's totally irrelevant.
"Core's a joke. It should be marginalized, since it's totally irrelevant."
It's easier justify inflating away the debt by throwing money out of helicpoters to bailout the banks if they use the core rate and it keeps retail sales rising due to pass threw inflation even as demand is falling.
$49 billion?!! This is peanuts? What does it take to impress you people? It's a humungous LOSS. "'Tis true, 'tis pity, and pity 'tis, 'tis true. A foolish figure, but farewell it."
energyecon,
CPI came in hot - 0.8% headline, 0.3% core.
I have five charts of it (3 month, 6 month, 1 year, 2 year, and 5 year), and all five charts are running hot.
5 More Views of Inflation
Stag mark,
I did not understand your charts.
is the last one by calculating a running a running (moving) 5 yr inflation rate ?
Not sure what it matter what was the rate 5 years ago. The trend of prices (dalta Price/ Delta time) is what matter and this is very hot.
Mr. Market doesn't seem to like the C news this morning. I show down about .50 in the premarket.
Financial Entertainment Television (FET) is bemoaning the possible loss of the dividend.
What on earth is the logic of worrying about a 7% dividend when the stock has almost been cut in half?
Yal,
The last one is the total amount the CPI has grown over the previous five years and then annualized to show the average annual growth per year.
Tnx.
231 comments! A new world record!
ZackAttack,
What on earth is the logic of worrying about a 7% dividend when the stock has almost been cut in half?
Yeah, no kidding.
I never did mind about the little things. - Maggie, Point of No Return
Seems like a good movie to bring up these days. We're well past the point of no return AND the point of no returns. Hahaha! gasp choke stumble
Not only are DSL's NPAs going through the roof, but principal repayments are dropping like a stone.
For the year to date, inflation is up 4.3%.
For full year 2007, estimate 4.3% or 4.5%.
2007 will be the highest CPI inflation year since 1990. To see data:
St. Louis Fed: Series: CPIAUCNS, Consumer Price Index for All Urban Consumers: All Items
Click "download data" and "% chg. from year ago"
The greatest danger of high CPI is on Social Security because of dollar-for-dollar COLA. Bernanke emphasized this in his earliest testimony to Congress. Yet, his Fed has let inflation get out of control.
Every Social Security benefit to be paid in the future now costs 4.5% more (plus compounding). A 4.5% CPI has as more impact than double-digit CPIs of 1970s because Social Security is now more frail. This is why the Fed has to focus on headline inflation, not just core.
You can debate whether CPI accurately reflects U.S. inflation. But all members of Congress understand that it will be politically difficult to tamper with the dollar-for-dollar relationship between CPI and COLA. It's senior pocketbook city.
Talking heads are trying to sell this as the beginning of the end of the credit crunch - Mr. Market isn't agreeing at the moment - sure looks more like the end of the beginning to me.
From Krugman's latest column:
The financial blog Calculated Risk, using data from First American CoreLogic, estimates that if home prices fall 20 percent there will be 13.7 million homeowners with negative equity. If prices fall 30 percent, that number would rise to more than 20 million.
this, and not SIVs or conduits, is citi's problem. by themselves, these structured finance problems would be survivable.
but citi has $2.2tn in assets over $120bn in equity. with $312bn in loans secured by real estate and another $90bn in unsecured consumer loans.
we love to discuss the esoteria here, and their structured finance exposure can surely weaken them -- but it's their plain old whole loan portfolio that can kill them.
What on earth is the logic of worrying about a 7% dividend when the stock has almost been cut in half?
as a trader, there's no logic in it.
as an income investor who bought C decades ago at a split-adjusted $2, the dividend is everything -- it's the only reason you hold C at all.
so it can be a very big deal.
Moody's and Standard & Poor's are considering downgrading the credit ratings on the seven SIVs the bank advises, raising the prospect that it will become difficult for them to keep renewing their debt.
Good morning,
Citi bail outs SIVs-run risk. How? Do they buy the full capital structure (k notes included) and the corresponding assets? Just the ABCP/MTNs? If that is the case, what about capital notes? Do they remain open to capital adequacy tests?
Appreciate your helpful comments.
Cross post from Zacks.com
Oh S word, No, not that one, its worse. STAGFLATION, or at least a mild case of it. The economy is clearly slowing and now it looks like inflation is heating up too. The market was clearly disappointed that the Fed didnt cut by 50 basis points on Tuesday, but todays data offers the reason why. The Fed operates under two mandates: To keep the economy growing AND to keep inflation under control. Back with the October policy statement that came out with the Fed meeting they said that the risks between inflation heating up and the economy slowing were balanced. Well think of balance as being a teeter totter. It can be in balance if you have two five year olds sitting on it, or it can be in balance if you have two sumo wrestlers on it. Clearly we have a couple of Sumo wrestlers here.
Headline CPI shot up to 0.8% for the month, well above the 0.6% that was expected, and close to 3x Octobers level of 0.3%. Year over year, it is up 4.3%. To nobodys surprise energy was the key culprit, rising 5.7% for the month. On a year over year basis the energy component of CPI is up 21%. However, even on a core level, CPI was up 0.3%, a tick higher than what was expected and what it was running in October. This is clearly above the Feds comfort zone of 1 to 2% inflation. The usual suspects were at work in raising core inflation. On a year over year basis Medical costs are up 5.8% and Education costs are up 5.6%. Owners Equivalent Rent (OER) is up 2.8% year over year. Just as soaring housing prices never found their way into the CPI on the way up during the blowing of the housing bubble, neither will they find their way into reducing inflation during the popping of it.
Industrial production came in a bit better than expected at up 0.3% vs. a 0.2% expectation. However the October numbers were revised down to a decline of 0.7% from the originally reported decline of 0.5%. A sharp decline in that series in one month tends to be reversed in the next month, so its hard to get excited about the slightly better than expected report for November. Capacity Utilization disappointed a bit at 81.5% vs. expectations of 81.7%. That was up from the current read on October of 81.4%, but below the originally reported 81.7%. Strength in mine output (up 1.1%) pretty much offset weakness in output from Utilities (down 1.3%). Manufacturing output rose 0.4%. Utility output has been down in four of the last five months.
cross post continued:
still think the Fed cuts again at its next meeting at the end of January, however, if we get another inflation read like this one next month, all bets are off. Back in the 1970s the Fed made the mistake of being to accommodative in the face of higher energy prices and it took very harsh medicine from Dr. Volker to cure the patient. Inflation is like a cancer, and the chemotherapy to cure it is not any fun. Generally it is a good idea to try to cure it as soon as it is detected. However this time around the patient has other problems (a massive banking crisis/credit crunch) that make the classic medicine for curing the inflation cancer, namely higher interest rates, contraindicated. That credit crisis was highlighted again with the decision by (Sh)Citi (C) to bring $49 billion of SIV assets and liabilities back onto its balance sheet. While it is not known how much of a mark to market hit will be taken on the asset side, and thus to equity, given the huge leverage involved in SIVs (normally about 14:1) we do know that there will be a hit to its capital ratios. They and the other big banks (Bank of America, (BAC), JP Morgan (JPM) Wachovia (WB)) who will most likely follow suit will have to either raise capital (sell preferred, stop share buybacks, cut dividends) or stop making more loans and shrink their balance sheets. If they do the later the risk of a recession rises sharply, if the do the former existing shareholders will be severely diluted.
"For example, HSBC utimately was obligated to take its two SIVs onto its balance sheet under its credit guarantees."
This isn't true. HSBC may have provided some liquidity to the SIVs prior to the bailout, but total committed liquidity for the SIVs wouldn't have exceeded around 5% of the senior debt. That's the total extent that HSBC could have been obligated to support its SIVs. The same applies to other bank sponsors of SIVs. There's a lot of confusion between ABCP conduits, which usually have full liquidity support, and SIVs, which have minimal committed liquidity.
"Bubba2Friday
why do u think the USD is strengthening? they're being repatriated by hedge funds and IB's.
which could explains rich's conundrum of a weakening yen.
idoc | 12.13.07 - 11:19 pm | # "
Idoc, if I had to guess the USD is strengthening because of being oversold (the Canadian dollar versus the greenback got way out of hand a few weeks ago) and the increasing likelihood of other Central Banks beginning to cut rates as well.
I think our system is in trouble because we've stuck a lot of foreigners who trusted us with bad paper. I believe the last few days' sell offs in indecies, like the Heng Seng, have far exceeded the moves of the NYSE. Admittedly I haven't followed international markets long, but it seemed to me when the NYSE had a solid move up other exchanges like the Heng Seng or Shanghai followed in lock step.
Now the Heng Seng is down 445... this is a 3rd straight day of solid selling in the Asian exchanges.
Krugman's tipped his hat to CR again. Get ready for 500 visitors online. Hope they behave.
C'mon, I want a hedge fund to blow up. Yeah, baby, I need it. C'mon ... it's been too long ...
the Americans have cleverly exported their sub-prime cancer to pension funds all over the world
We're Number One!
We're Number One!
"the Americans have cleverly exported their sub-prime cancer to pension funds all over the world
We're Number One!
We're Number One!
Broward Horne | Homepage | 12.13.07 - 11:46 pm | # "
Broward Horne, I'm glad someone else finally read that. And that comes from England, one of our historic allies.
"By showing it will play ball, Citi makes itself suitable for a bailout"
As much as I hate all the IBs and money center banks for all the greed and corruption and would like to see a few go under, this line makes the most sense to me. A true, "father I have sinned" moment, if they actually come clean. Good chance of that? Who knows.
Idoc, if I had to guess the USD is strengthening because of being oversold
Even US mfg people would agree - I sat in meetings all week and it was 'can you believe the dollar?' over and over. Told me the sucker was oversold - at least for now.
The dollar fall over the last few months has changed the expectations of importers though - they all thought dollar didn't matter, that cheap labor uber alles. Isn't so. Never really was (like housing prices only go up - big lie).
The game is a lot more interesting (and difficult) now. No more no-brain decisions, at least until no-brainers are back in charge.
Kou Jie- I don't know much about emerging equity markets other then I just felt that the easy money had been made and the big boys would be looking for other fish to fry, plus all the MSM financial types hawking the decouple theory seem to be complete nonsense. Anyway shorting emerging markets so far is a toss up, time will tell.
Dryfly, I'm beginning to think the dollar and American assets are going to begin to be despised real fast. I wonder if the move isn't to go from shorting foreign markets to precious metals and batten down the hatches... or precious metals and short the NYSE...
Dryfly, you were writing about Chicago's plans for a city-owned casino earlier. You'll love this one. Hot off the press from the Chicago Tribune.
"Indicted insider has story, home to sell"
Christopher Kellyour unreform governor's gambling point manwas indicted Thursday on federal tax evasion charges involving huge gambling losses with Chicago bookies and Las Vegas casinos.
Chicago Tribune breaking news, sports, weather and traffic in Chicago - chicagotribune.com
I'm near Chicago tonight and was listening to the news - Chicago is close to opening a city owned casino. What would Al Capone say?
Dryfly, don't count on it. It's a bunch of political maneuvering - the Illinois legislature is currently in a special session because they can't get a budget passed. They couldn't get a budget passed because the governor has been acting like a spoiled child ever since his [really bad] proposal got exactly zero votes in favor. He called a special session when the regular session ended, just to be a jerk and force the legislators to stay in Springfield for the rest of the year. A special session requires something like 2/3rds majority to pass anything which makes it impossible because downstaters think Chicago isn't subsidizing them enough. What we have now are wacky proposals that serve the purpose of "attempting" to do something while they wait for the new year, when a simple majority will do the trick and the bumpkins that think Chicago has $800 million for a casino license just laying around can be ignored. Never mind that nobody is really sure that anyone actually wants a casino in Chicago.
As for Al Capone... Well, actually there is one unused casino license in Illinois. It's bouncing around the court system as the state gaming board looks increasingly likely to prove that it has the power to take away your license if your cousin's neighbor's uncle's barber has organized crime ties.
Krugman's tipped his hat to CR again.
From Krugman's latest column:
The financial blog Calculated Risk, using data from First American CoreLogic, estimates that if home prices fall 20 percent there will be 13.7 million homeowners with negative equity. If prices fall 30 percent, that number would rise to more than 20 million.
.
Wow. A guy goes to lunch and the board goes international. Capital flows, trade flows, relative interest rates, all the way to abandoning the American capitalist market format. Way beyond my ken. But I'd certainly second what Dryfly has been seeing, and whether that means an oversold dollar, who knows?
The trend has been more Chinese exports using more RMB denominated inputs, and local cost increases have exacerbated the RMB appreciations push on prices. No buyers want to allow Chinese makers to export a ton of inflation, but what they want is beside the point-- a higher price is dead nuts certain. Exporter margins are gone.
We're told that effects of ex rate shifts lag. Maybe this shifts some production to Bdesh or Vietnam. My hope is Wisconsin, but time will tell.
Bubba2Friday,
How about cash, precious metals and puts (on US financials, IBs, retailers)? Maybe some LEAPS on the bubbly tech stocks...
rich,
Id short emerging markets (if I shorted anything which I dont) since I dont see decoupling either. Or lets say no decoupling until and unless the world economy enjoys a wrenching about face.
I hope its those nimble non-automotive manufacturers in the Midwest that Dryfly has spoken of that will be part of the benign cause (and effect). Also a resurgent middle class in BRIC. Both in their juvenile stages; and some smart money says China gets old before it gets rich
We're told that effects of ex rate shifts lag. Maybe this shifts some production to Bdesh or Vietnam. My hope is Wisconsin, but time will tell.
Kou Jie
I look forward to the day when I can once again buy a U.S.-made pair of shoes.
I look forward to the day when I can once again buy a U.S.-made pair of shoes.
Try Allen Edmonds. Bring money!
Baltimore Bob- "Krugman's tipped his hat to CR again."
Damn, CR, that's scary. You're in danger of becoming mainstream media.
mp, that's downright subversive!
Kou Jie- "mp, that's downright subversive!"
My God, it's already begun.
idoc,
Well the buck broke the 50 day ma. But if it is really getting stronger it needs to break the 100 day. Got a bit to go. This may have a bit to do with a bit oversold and the Taffy proposal...too soon to tell. I just don't see anything fundemental, other than an oversold blip in some computer program driving this.
Cheers,
Idoc,
Crap...sorry read a repost of a repost.
Cheers,
dryfly,
"they all thought dollar didn't matter, that cheap labor uber alles."
Erm...are you going...
YouTube -
Or did you mean Ceterus paribus.
(I'm sure you meant the latter.)
Cheers,
My hope is Wisconsin, but time will tell.
Kou Jie - it's happening. But the problem is mfg is so efficient (labor wise) that even if the dollar volume of domestic mfg grows they won't hire enough people to take away the decline in home building & financial services.
There is going to be some pain from all this here in the states - no if ands or buts. My point is the re-balancing has to happen, the US can't consume the worlds hard labor and give them crap paper in exchange. If nothing else they at last should get to own more of those efficient Wisconsin manufacturers. That is if we don't give them products in exchange, we at least need to give them real money... if we can't do that then we will have to give up some of our real assets. Productive assets. Even those in Wisconsin.
That'll make the cheese heads here happy (not - they don't even like to see FIBs own their plants). Oh well as long as they don't take the Packers [My in-laws are Packer fans, each and every cheese hat wearing one of them, pray for me].
Does anyone know what time the "Citigroup to Bring $49 Billion From SIVs Onto Its Balance Sheet" story was announced? It looks to me that it was announced after hours?
dryfly,
The packers are quite safe. Other WI producers maybe not.
Packers.com » History » Fast Facts » Shareholder & Financial History
Cheers,
Mise - No I meant uber alles and you got it. Kudos.
So you watch current events and channel Leni Riefenstahl too? It intensifies every four years... Here I thought I was the only one.
dryfly,
OOOh, then that was much more ironic than I thought. Gotta go upstairs and reread.
step step step...hmmm
step step step...
That was kinda deep then.
Cheers,
Mise I know folks who have those Packer stock certs framed on their walls. The pictures of the kids & grand kid are in the back, Packer certs up there next to Jesus.
I'm a Bills fan...but I've always had a soft spot for the Packers. Great organization. And I lived in Milwaukee for a few years as well.Way OT...
I'd love to see BF and the Cheese heads go to the SB this year, but the EVIL NE Patriotacts would likely crush them...and I don't want to see that. Rather the Dallas Cowpukes get a Patriotact waterboarding.
Cheers,
Try Allen Edmonds. Bring money!
Kou Jie | 12.14.07 - 12:27 am | #
The way the dollar was falling for awhile I was half expecting to see AEs at Payless. After all Payless only sells shoes made in low wage rate parts of the world. That could be Wisconsin if the trend continued...
I look forward to the day when I can once again buy a U.S.-made pair of shoes.
I don't. But I look forward to the day I can buy an American-made LCD or laptop. Low value-added labor-intensive stuff like shoes and clothes can stay offshore.
Dryfly,
Yes, that upper midwest chauvinism. I don't think any outsider could comprehend gophers belittling badgers who take it out on the U.P. it's like the lutefisk / surstroemming conflict; simply unresolvable. All these places are pretty insular, which I believe is a direct function of the irreplaceable local tavern.
But I understand your comments about labor productivity-- even Chinese concerned about employment bemoan how efficient the factories have become.
And when those factories venture into the U.S. to buy (usually a brand, or some dist'n network) they are usually taken straight from the airport to the cleaners. How to re-cycle that U.S. munny to real stuff is a challenging enterprise, even when the seller is not a xenophobe or crook.
To drift back towards topic:
MLEC/SuperSIV was a chance for all the banks to put their really shitty paper out to the slaughterhouse a little later than initially possible. That didn't work out, so folks are taking the bowl cut now, even though they still have no idea what it will sell for(i.e., this is all accounting black magic)
Citi is so big it's like a mutated elephant: 8 legs & 2 trunks. Even if you think you got it figured out, you have no idea. These SIV writedowns are indeed a good start, but to say that they can maintain tier 1 ratios at a canter with the SIV + PE bridge loans + everything else they screwed the pooch on is straining credibility. They wouldn't be shaking the couches for the odd $1.8bn property if they didn't have to. Meanwhile their US bank deposit base isn't large enough to provide the float like BofA & JPMorgan can.
Does Citi survive by the skin of their teeth? If they ditch the divy for the next year, sure.
I still think they need to get towards 1998 price levels before I'll go truly long, but I'm ready to start averaging in over the next couple of weeks.
"Bubba2Friday,
How about cash, precious metals and puts (on US financials, IBs, retailers)? Maybe some LEAPS on the bubbly tech stocks...
ShortCourage | 12.14.07 - 12:13 am | #"
ShortC, how long do you want to stay in dollars for? That's why, because I think foreign markets will drop significantly before the merry NYSE (ragin' kegger about to begin no doubt as surely The Fed's auctions will rally the bulls), the dollar will eventually collapse without traditional foreign support (buyer's strike.) I think it's that dollar selloff which sends gold to lofty new heights.
I'm a Bills fan...but I've always had a soft spot for the Packers.
Ya me too - I have a soft spot in my heart for crazed fanatics and Packer fans are all of that and more. I remember one year PF (Pre-Favre) when the pack was on their way to something like a 2-14 season and a buddy was going to do the six hour drive from Mpls to Lambeau for a game and I asked 'Why?"... He just looked at me and said 'Cause the future is bright - you wait until next year'.
The country needs more of that... I think.
Oh and he and his fiancee had their engagement picture taken in front of Lambeau - the one for the paper. Only in Wisconsin. I'm surprised they didn't tail gate first. Gotta love it.
There's no way this helps anything. It's merely a result of a DOA M-LEC.
I don't know what has confused so many of you here, but this is no fix, and is not good in any way.
Capitalism is dead. No happy wishes will return it to its past glory. Dead. Just get out of the draft while the carcass rots.
Citi is toast, hell, many of the major banks are toast. risk_capital has lost his mind, things are much much worse than anybody dares say. Yes, folks, banks are going to fail, and with it the errant dreams of many a fool.
Figure it out! This is truly the big one. Bigger than any of you can yet imagine.
I don't. But I look forward to the day I can buy an American-made LCD or laptop.
I'd rather have the Edmonds - the LCD or laptop will be obsolete in a year or two the Edmonds will last you a lifetime.
The press release:
My comments
junior notes, which have a current market value of $2.5 billion, are in the first loss position.
everything 'marked to market as of Dec 12.
The value of ditching the "Master Liquidity Enhancement Conduit" ("M-LEC") - priceless. I have never seen anything get such a uniformly bad reaction. If anyone can find a SINGLE favorable article in the press, I would like to see it. Some of the European banks that were originally going to be bailed out hated it. Every time it was mentioned, the stock went down.
Citi - About Citi - Press Room
Asset composition:
http://www.citigroup.com/citigroup/press/2007/data/071213c.pdf
Assets: 60% Financial Institutions Debt Aaa and Aa
40% Structured Finance Aaa
The SIVs have no direct exposure to U.S. sub-prime assets and have approximately $51 million of indirect
exposure to sub-prime assets through CDOs which are AAA rated and carry credit enhancements.
Assets: 10 Billion in Commercial Paper Avg Maturity 2.4 mos.
48 Billion Medium Term Notes
Through asset reductions, the SIVs have partially repaid the previously disclosed $10
billion commitment to purchase commercial paper. As a result, Citi now holds $7.2 billion
of commercial paper issued by the SIVs as of December 12, 2007. Citi expects the SIVs
to fully repay the commercial paper at or before the last maturity date in mid-March 2008.
Following the final maturity date, the new facility is expected to be the sole commitment
by Citi to the SIVs.
Average maturity of assets 3.7 years.
They have to believe that the valuations plus the $2.5 billion cushion can get them through first quarter 08.
Estimate of ultimate cost - since they think they can close the year at current valuations and have $2.5 billion cushion, give it another $2.5 to run it off.
The significance of the SIV swallow is twofold:
1) Citi will be in the business of not lending. Multiply by the other banks pressured to take in their SIV's and you get a credit crunch.
2) The bank will have to reserve against the SIV assets, which means more losses ahead. Capital ratios are a moving target in this environment, not a static one. Raise $8b one quarter, gone in losses the next...
Whatever the stock does tomorrow, the undeniable implication is that Goldman is right: $2tr in credit will disappear next year, and potentially more if the economy lapses into a recession. This would be negative for any economy (as a % of GDP), but much more so for one where leverage is the lifeblood of growth.
dotcommunist, I didn't know there were any Marxists left. Keep up the good fight shooter. I have seen the future and it is bright.
About that future...
I'm getting the feeling we should all start building Arks and looking for two of everything...
dotcomrade<
"I don't know what has confused so many of you here, but this is no fix, and is not good in any way."
Who here is confused. Hands up from those who thought the M-bLECh Super Sewer was going to solve this problem.
Counting those for:
Seb, Ojoe, Banker?...maybe, maybe not...anyone else? Closed 3.
Cheers,
wooley bugger,
Yeah we could use another 200M killed by their communist gov'ts...be nice. Good fight...Bwahahahahaha
Amazon.com: The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression (9780674076082): Mark Kramer, Jonathan Murphy, Stephane Courtois, Jean-Louis Panne, Andrzej Paczkowski, Karel Bartosek, Jean-Louis Margolin: Books
Enjoy..if you dare.
Cheers,
"Seb, Ojoe, Banker?...maybe, maybe not...anyone else? Closed 3."
Oh come now, you know Banker has been calling the death of MLEC for...what?...maybe a month now? I actually think he deserves some credit.
Where is he, anyways?
The fact that they could run 40% of it off and not run through all the junior notes under really bad market conditions leads me to think they won't have to take much more of a hit on this.
The horrible publicity cost them $5/share in market price.
There are 5 billion shares and the dividend is $2. The stock is already priced for it to be cut in half. That gives them $5 billion in additional capital plus earnings to continue writing down.
They will book every dollar they can at year end. Too bad they are capital constrained. Or maybe not. Two years of bad bonuses!
anoninCA,
He initially supported...that was the maybe..maybe not part.
Cheers,
Seriously though, and it was mentioned way upstairs...this is about Shiti being able to put that shat into a package and the Taffy auctions. Remeber triple whitching Friday is coming up and the Fed has to get enough caish into the system to clear those contracts.
This ain't about liquidity or long term solutions, it's about next Fridays triple witching and the banks clearing those contracts. Very short term has Bernutty and pals.
Cheers,
More from Krugman's column mentioning CR (that was first spotted by end_days at 11:40 BTW)
Whats going on in the markets isnt an irrational panic. Its a wholly rational panic, because theres a lot of bad debt out there, and you dont know how much of that bad debt is held by the guy who wants to borrow your money.
.
"this is about Shiti being able to put that shat into a package and the Taffy auctions."
Are you saying they need cash? I would think they already had enough AAA stuff that they can't sell to fill their allocation.
They would never do it if they hadn't cleared it with their auditors - so it has to be bookable at year end.
Update: citi debt downgraded.
RPT-Moody's cuts Citi debt, warns of further downgrade
| Reuters
Citigroup said it will consolidate the SIVs assets and liabilities onto Citigroup's balance sheet under applicable accounting rules.
The company said it made this decision to support the current ratings by Moody's Corp. (MCO)and S&P of the SIVs' senior debt and to allow for asset reduction.
Citigroup said it expects orderly asset reductions will be sufficient to meet its $35 billion liquidity requirements through the end of 2008.
The company expects to return to its targeted capital ratios by teh end of the second quarter. mmmm... so what are the ratios now ????
Krugman has been spending too much time around here! Seriously, it's nice to see the blog get recognition and the msm to get a clue.
Zigurrat
Can you explain how these banks managed to put off balance sheet stuff that it appears should have been on balance sheet? How did that work?
Curious
Zigurrat,
"Are you saying they need cash? I would think they already had enough AAA stuff that they can't sell to fill their allocation."
Are you being sarcastic, or serious?
The artificially rated AAA SIV stuff is first on the auction block.
We'll see..
Cheers, and good night.
I would still say that things aren't as bad as 87 when they took the $3.5 billion hit for latin american debt.
What followed was the S&L meltdown, Texas and the sunbelt banks failing. The commercial real estate glut. The residential real estate downturn. Followed by an injection of capital from Saudi Arabia.
In 87 the Fed gave C a free ride by allowing them to use the loan loss reserve as capital. I saw it somewhere on google book.
"In 87 the Fed gave C a free ride by allowing them to use the loan loss reserve as capital"
Well unless this is all a plot to make it look like the US orinating banks are suffering as much as the foreign holders of this stuff - if it is not a plot - then it appears to me that these banks are already more or less insolvent - or are feared to be - otherwise there would be no crisis of confidance.
Missean:
The only Marxist ideas like are those pertaining to alienation. The whole dictatorship of the proles does not sit well with me and I fully understand the crimes committed by Marxists. I even made through 3/4's of the Gulag Archipalego (800 pages describing torture is far to many). Is there no sarcasm emotican?
The same way they booked $2 billion in profit last quarter. I'm sure it was technically justified. However I am surprised that they could change their story from 'absolutely no risk' to eating it.
The auditors have gotten much tougher since Anderson -- especially when there is a chance for a bad outcome. They won't roll over if they might be looking at a bad outcome.
And now the entire world is going to see how they book this. They don't want to look like idiots two quarters in a row.