"Not to mention tedious and boring as hell. Not the kind of work a Master Of The Universe or his fund should have to do."
Surely if I think hard enough about it and generate a complex and interesting theory supporting my model, Euelna's number will end up fitting right in...
This seems to mirror the government practices in Cost-of-Living measurement, Birth-Death adjustment of employment stats... etc., etc.
When the whole world is just a model it should all tie together and function perfectly. No need for reality at all!
Don't you need to stake them through the heart to keep them down?
Well, I don't, but my cubicle was decorated with garlic wreaths and crucifixes for so many years . . . all you people who went for those motivational posters are screwed, though.
Don't worry about the Appraisers,once AVM's are fully implemented the lenders won't have to put up with them anymore.and lenders LOVE AVM's.they are scientific.and fast.and really cheap...and instead of telling them to hit a number,you simply correct the assumptions in the model.which is why they are getting so popular.
But the expense of rehiring Euelna would be prohibitive, depriving millions of Americans of the opportunity to participate in the nation's best sure-fire investment and become an "automatic millionaire"!
Not to worry though, with modern computers and communication, instead of Euelna we can employ Chinese for a few dollars a day, and use machine translation software for the docs and correspondence. For a sample of how good that is nowadays, here's a
Babelfish translation of the Tavakoli quote into Chinese and back:
The hedge fund famously changes by the "marking uses they mathematical model to estimate and their CDO holding value reports -- the practice to the investor to the model. "recently troubled in the hedge fund by bear Stearns, Braddock Financial the Corp. responsible conduct and the unity capital market has highlighted the question inherently in that method. Even so, the fund supervisor resists the market view and to continue the "mark in the subprime property value to mold, the" request decline represents the short-term volatility. "the ' mark to model ' is the joke," says 珍妮特 Tavakoli, Tavakoli by structure finance consultant firm president, Chicago. "any you need the present to do are 狩 medical subordinate's mortgage" but are not mold in CDOs, has not completed early, she said. "it is unclean, rolls your sleeve type work. "
With artificial intelligence, who needs English lit majors?
Of course hedge funds don't have Collateral Review Departments. How the hell can a fund afford to keep due diligence people around for a mere 2 and 20? Good Lord, those people who actually know how to read appraisals will eat you out of house and home . . .
A few weeks ago I chatted with someone at a (perfectly respectable) firm that offers due diligence services for securitizations. The going rate for analysts with 10 years of underwriting or loan closing or quality control experience is $35/hr plus expenses and a $100 per diem, no bennies. Average job lasts 5-10 days.
BS-in = BS out. In business school they call it "Data Integrity". what a concept!
When I was working in NYC, some of us nerds mused that we could reinvent our careers by riding the elevator up and down with a Blackberry and Bluetooth earpiece saying "Ya, circle back with the lawyers, we need some visioneering...those two processes could be synergized...".
Giving people bad news from my downloads and pivot tables never got me anywhere.
Of course hedge funds don't have Collateral Review Departments.
Many (most) of the hedge funds are just a small shop with 2-3 traders, 2-3 programmers, 1 sysadm and a secretary. That's pretty much it, whatever they can do then with those people is what kind of "analysis" they trade on.
To the hedge funds, the underlying asset doesn't matter, just so long as it can be traded-tulips, violins, diamonds, CDO's, etc. The pinch comes when it can't, which seems to be now.
If they're an old and powerful hedgie recieved practice is to burn the body after staking to keep it from re-assembling in a new one after a time.
BtW - whatever happened to the guy who got Amaranth in trouble ? I know Nick Leeson is on the lecture circuit.
You know they keep telling us that sub-prime is contained 'cause it's a small part of the mortgage market w/o mentioning the CDO's we're all talking about built on those assets.
2nd BTW (that's by-the-way BTW) sub-prime IS small. Of course it's one of ten or so major assets classes all of whose base assets are leveraged and then re-sliced into structured derivatives and none of who's assets are marked to market. I guess if somebody buys it there's a market.
Hey, Tom Stone, did you catch Fannie Mae's latest Announcement? If DU's internal AVM decides the property is in a "declining market," it will now require full interior/exterior inspection.
Whoa, doggies. This is gonna get ugly. Using an AVM to decide that you need a real appraisal instead of using it as a substitute for one???? Why, that's where we were five years ago! These humorless weenies at Fannie Mae are repealing progress!
The whole thing's pretty funny . . . translation: We remind you people that it is your job to read these goddam appraisals before you send the loan to us.
"What do you mean we are headed for the rocks, the GPS says I'm right on track." This is the response I got from a young officer when I pointed out he was headed into Canada and not in a good way. From then on the GPS was called the "Magic Box" to emphasize that what it said might be an illusion when compared to reality. Turns out they were right on the GPS track but a transposition of numbers had occurred in some data entry.
Perhaps they should change "marked to model" to "marked to magic box"?
$35/hr plus expenses and a $100 per diem, no bennies
That's funny, I just heard Latham was charging $440 an hour for 24 year old summer clerks to do the same thing. And the summer clerks are producing much more optimistic reports.
Actually that $100 per diem is no joke, works out to close to $100k all in. Of course that's assuming that the work is steady and so much fun that they don't take any breaks.
Still, with 10 years experience I'd expect something more than unstable contract work with no vacation or health benefits.
Next you're gonna say that some math skills would be useful in the financial markets. Them's dangerous thoughts.
Tanta, you're too tough on the motivational posters; go over to desair.com, they've got some great ones. I love their motto: "It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black."
daveNYC, remember that this is all on-site work. That per diem disappears pretty quickly when you're eating three restaurant meals a day and paying $4 a pop for a cup of coffee.
That per diem is way high- more like $35-$40 a day (unless there in Moscow).
Also, a lot of business is now sent into centralized underwriting centers, so you usually don't pay per diem on that type of work.
there are absolutely no deals getting done, and flow volume is WAY off, so the majority of contractors are lucky to work 5 days a MONTH. I see pay rates coming DOWN, since there is such a large supply of contractors. Remember that the client is usually paying a flat fee per loan, and fair number of firms are competing for a much smaller slice of business. but that's why the contract business was invented!
Janet will likely be fired for "having a bad attitude".
Ya and next we'll learn she's starting to blog about it and projecting her bad attitude all across cyber space... can the markets really handle much more of this?
Well maybe at least she has a good attitude about things that really matter - like good meatloaf.
Reading that translation to and from Chinese, I like the line that is something like "mark to subprime mold." Yeah, "mark to mold" might be about right... nobody likes mold, it spreads (unlike subprime, which is "contained!"), and you can't get rid of it. Sounds right to me!
A few weeks ago I chatted with someone at a (perfectly respectable) firm that offers due diligence services for securitizations. The going rate for analysts with 10 years of underwriting or loan closing or quality control experience is $35/hr plus expenses and a $100 per diem, no bennies. Average job lasts 5-10 days. - Tanta
Thats about 70,000 a year if fully utilized. Say the same as 50,000 salary. - vader
My guess is you spend two days marketing yourself for each day you can bill... and that's assuming the thing really blows up and the MOTUs think the really NEED these kinds of folks.
Else its seven days a week marketing youself for zero days billing. Been there.
>>$35/hr plus expenses and a $100 per diem, no bennies
That's funny, I just heard Latham was charging $440 an hour for 24 year old summer clerks to do the same thing. And the summer clerks are producing much more optimistic reports.
Well there you go, the market at work. Optimistic reports are worth AT LEAST $440 an hour. Realistic reports, well - not so much.
there are absolutely no deals getting done, and flow volume is WAY off, so the majority of contractors are lucky to work 5 days a MONTH. I see pay rates coming DOWN, since there is such a large supply of contractors.
Wait 'til the class actions start & 'discovery' kicks in. Then it'll be 'Happy Days Are Here Again' for those folks.
As a fresh B school grad armed with IRR skills, Strat Planning put me onto some models for the business plan. The general knowledge was "put the number in here, if the output is over 25%, its good." Well the marketing guys got really smart, they all figured out if their program got really big sales 10 years out (they'd be long gone) they're program always came in over 25% and would get funded.
Marking to the model wouldn't mesh with GAAP, but its likely a practice thats been handed down and they assume its acceptable and ethical.
Tanta -- The hedge funds would love to get Euelna on the phone to consult her, but all their phone lines are lit up with incoming margin calls from their prime brokers.
Who wants to value the collateral when you just have to give it back anyway?
"It's grubby, roll-up-your-sleeves kind of work."
Not to mention tedious and boring as hell. Not the kind of work a Master Of The Universe or his fund should have to do.
Sexy computer models are much more exciting, don't you think?
"Not to mention tedious and boring as hell. Not the kind of work a Master Of The Universe or his fund should have to do."
Surely if I think hard enough about it and generate a complex and interesting theory supporting my model, Euelna's number will end up fitting right in...
This seems to mirror the government practices in Cost-of-Living measurement, Birth-Death adjustment of employment stats... etc., etc.
When the whole world is just a model it should all tie together and function perfectly. No need for reality at all!
They shoot fund managers, don't they?
Don't you need to stake them through the heart to keep them down?
Don't you need to stake them through the heart to keep them down?
Well, I don't, but my cubicle was decorated with garlic wreaths and crucifixes for so many years . . . all you people who went for those motivational posters are screwed, though.
Mark-to-hope, more like.
i don't know how long the market can take this kind of bad news:
KKR Cancels $1.4 Billion Loan to Refinance Maxeda LBO (Update5) - Bloomberg.com
what? hedge funds have collateral review departments?
Don't worry about the Appraisers,once AVM's are fully implemented the lenders won't have to put up with them anymore.and lenders LOVE AVM's.they are scientific.and fast.and really cheap...and instead of telling them to hit a number,you simply correct the assumptions in the model.which is why they are getting so popular.
Garbage in, garbage out. A well-known feature of black-box models.
i though a hedge fund's collateral review department was a guy with a checklist:
FICO - check
LTV - check
BBB rating - check
tell the trader it's good to buy!
But the expense of rehiring Euelna would be prohibitive, depriving millions of Americans of the opportunity to participate in the nation's best sure-fire investment and become an "automatic millionaire"!
Not to worry though, with modern computers and communication, instead of Euelna we can employ Chinese for a few dollars a day, and use machine translation software for the docs and correspondence. For a sample of how good that is nowadays, here's a
Babelfish translation of the Tavakoli quote into Chinese and back:
The hedge fund famously changes by the "marking uses they mathematical model to estimate and their CDO holding value reports -- the practice to the investor to the model. "recently troubled in the hedge fund by bear Stearns, Braddock Financial the Corp. responsible conduct and the unity capital market has highlighted the question inherently in that method. Even so, the fund supervisor resists the market view and to continue the "mark in the subprime property value to mold, the" request decline represents the short-term volatility. "the ' mark to model ' is the joke," says 珍妮特 Tavakoli, Tavakoli by structure finance consultant firm president, Chicago. "any you need the present to do are 狩 medical subordinate's mortgage" but are not mold in CDOs, has not completed early, she said. "it is unclean, rolls your sleeve type work. "
With artificial intelligence, who needs English lit majors?
Janet will likely be fired for "having a bad attitude".
Shocked, I say absolutely shocked! Has the heat gotten to the readers and contributors of this blog.
Are you seriously saying that hedge fund managers should work for their under taxed profits? Surely you don't mean that.
How do expect them to continue to take those juicy profits from the fund buyers if they have to fairly price their product.
Gads, when they get wind of this in the Hampton's it will cause no end of grief. Fund managers are far too special to actually work for a living.
How will the fund managers make a living if they can not sell their invisible cloth of woven gold?
On Friday's GE conference call, the CEO talking about dumping WMC:
Mr. Immelt said: We think the platform has a lot of value to someone. A lot of people are making money in the space.
Must be that mark-to-model "value".
Of course hedge funds don't have Collateral Review Departments. How the hell can a fund afford to keep due diligence people around for a mere 2 and 20? Good Lord, those people who actually know how to read appraisals will eat you out of house and home . . .
A few weeks ago I chatted with someone at a (perfectly respectable) firm that offers due diligence services for securitizations. The going rate for analysts with 10 years of underwriting or loan closing or quality control experience is $35/hr plus expenses and a $100 per diem, no bennies. Average job lasts 5-10 days.
BS-in = BS out. In business school they call it "Data Integrity". what a concept!
When I was working in NYC, some of us nerds mused that we could reinvent our careers by riding the elevator up and down with a Blackberry and Bluetooth earpiece saying "Ya, circle back with the lawyers, we need some visioneering...those two processes could be synergized...".
Giving people bad news from my downloads and pivot tables never got me anywhere.
Many (most) of the hedge funds are just a small shop with 2-3 traders, 2-3 programmers, 1 sysadm and a secretary. That's pretty much it, whatever they can do then with those people is what kind of "analysis" they trade on.
Thats about 70,000 a year if fully utilized.
Say the same as 50,000 salary.
To the hedge funds, the underlying asset doesn't matter, just so long as it can be traded-tulips, violins, diamonds, CDO's, etc. The pinch comes when it can't, which seems to be now.
If they're an old and powerful hedgie recieved practice is to burn the body after staking to keep it from re-assembling in a new one after a time.
BtW - whatever happened to the guy who got Amaranth in trouble ? I know Nick Leeson is on the lecture circuit.
You know they keep telling us that sub-prime is contained 'cause it's a small part of the mortgage market w/o mentioning the CDO's we're all talking about built on those assets.
2nd BTW (that's by-the-way BTW) sub-prime IS small. Of course it's one of ten or so major assets classes all of whose base assets are leveraged and then re-sliced into structured derivatives and none of who's assets are marked to market. I guess if somebody buys it there's a market.
Right ?
Hey, Tom Stone, did you catch Fannie Mae's latest Announcement? If DU's internal AVM decides the property is in a "declining market," it will now require full interior/exterior inspection.
Whoa, doggies. This is gonna get ugly. Using an AVM to decide that you need a real appraisal instead of using it as a substitute for one???? Why, that's where we were five years ago! These humorless weenies at Fannie Mae are repealing progress!
The whole thing's pretty funny . . . translation: We remind you people that it is your job to read these goddam appraisals before you send the loan to us.
https://www.efanniemae.com/sf/guides/ssg/annltrs/pdf/2007/0711.pdf
Sorry Euelna had to go. She was bringing everybody down with her negativity about retaining value in a declining market. She was just an old baby boomer stuck in the 80s with her talk of recessions and real estate busts. She never got that it is a brave new world of computers and models. And the market never goes down. (See 'What if HPA was flat for an extended period of time? They responded that their model would start to break down.')
"What do you mean we are headed for the rocks, the GPS says I'm right on track." This is the response I got from a young officer when I pointed out he was headed into Canada and not in a good way. From then on the GPS was called the "Magic Box" to emphasize that what it said might be an illusion when compared to reality. Turns out they were right on the GPS track but a transposition of numbers had occurred in some data entry.
Perhaps they should change "marked to model" to "marked to magic box"?
That's funny, I just heard Latham was charging $440 an hour for 24 year old summer clerks to do the same thing. And the summer clerks are producing much more optimistic reports.
Thats about 70,000 a year if fully utilized.
Actually that $100 per diem is no joke, works out to close to $100k all in. Of course that's assuming that the work is steady and so much fun that they don't take any breaks.
Still, with 10 years experience I'd expect something more than unstable contract work with no vacation or health benefits.
Next you're gonna say that some math skills would be useful in the financial markets. Them's dangerous thoughts.
Tanta, you're too tough on the motivational posters; go over to desair.com, they've got some great ones. I love their motto: "It's always darkest just before it goes pitch black."
daveNYC, remember that this is all on-site work. That per diem disappears pretty quickly when you're eating three restaurant meals a day and paying $4 a pop for a cup of coffee.
No bennies? Geez, that's harsh man, next they're going to say no more acid trips on my lunchbreak. you're really killing my buzz, Tanta.
Urban Dictionary: bennies
see def'n 5.
That per diem is way high- more like $35-$40 a day (unless there in Moscow).
Also, a lot of business is now sent into centralized underwriting centers, so you usually don't pay per diem on that type of work.
there are absolutely no deals getting done, and flow volume is WAY off, so the majority of contractors are lucky to work 5 days a MONTH. I see pay rates coming DOWN, since there is such a large supply of contractors. Remember that the client is usually paying a flat fee per loan, and fair number of firms are competing for a much smaller slice of business. but that's why the contract business was invented!
Janet will likely be fired for "having a bad attitude".
Ya and next we'll learn she's starting to blog about it and projecting her bad attitude all across cyber space... can the markets really handle much more of this?
Well maybe at least she has a good attitude about things that really matter - like good meatloaf.
Reading that translation to and from Chinese, I like the line that is something like "mark to subprime mold." Yeah, "mark to mold" might be about right... nobody likes mold, it spreads (unlike subprime, which is "contained!"), and you can't get rid of it. Sounds right to me!
A few weeks ago I chatted with someone at a (perfectly respectable) firm that offers due diligence services for securitizations. The going rate for analysts with 10 years of underwriting or loan closing or quality control experience is $35/hr plus expenses and a $100 per diem, no bennies. Average job lasts 5-10 days. - Tanta
Thats about 70,000 a year if fully utilized. Say the same as 50,000 salary. - vader
My guess is you spend two days marketing yourself for each day you can bill... and that's assuming the thing really blows up and the MOTUs think the really NEED these kinds of folks.
Else its seven days a week marketing youself for zero days billing. Been there.
>>$35/hr plus expenses and a $100 per diem, no bennies
That's funny, I just heard Latham was charging $440 an hour for 24 year old summer clerks to do the same thing. And the summer clerks are producing much more optimistic reports.
Well there you go, the market at work. Optimistic reports are worth AT LEAST $440 an hour. Realistic reports, well - not so much.
Babelfish: "mark in the subprime property value to mold, ..."
No bennies? Geez, that's harsh man, next they're going to say no more acid trips on my lunchbreak. you're really killing my buzz, Tanta.
never fear bacon - there are other jobs out there for ya...
there are absolutely no deals getting done, and flow volume is WAY off, so the majority of contractors are lucky to work 5 days a MONTH. I see pay rates coming DOWN, since there is such a large supply of contractors.
Wait 'til the class actions start & 'discovery' kicks in. Then it'll be 'Happy Days Are Here Again' for those folks.
Bud Fox thought that made sense.
As a fresh B school grad armed with IRR skills, Strat Planning put me onto some models for the business plan. The general knowledge was "put the number in here, if the output is over 25%, its good." Well the marketing guys got really smart, they all figured out if their program got really big sales 10 years out (they'd be long gone) they're program always came in over 25% and would get funded.
Marking to the model wouldn't mesh with GAAP, but its likely a practice thats been handed down and they assume its acceptable and ethical.
Tanta -- The hedge funds would love to get Euelna on the phone to consult her, but all their phone lines are lit up with incoming margin calls from their prime brokers.
Who wants to value the collateral when you just have to give it back anyway?
The Epicurean Dealmaker: Marks in the Sand