I like this quote from the article:

“Housing needs to go back to reasonable levels,” said Anthony B. Sanders, a professor of real estate finance at George Mason University. “If we keep trying to stimulate the market, that’s the definition of insanity.”

and this

“We have had enough artificial support and need to let the free market do its thing,” said the housing analyst Ivy Zelman.

The housing market would have finished correcting long ago were it not for intervention. The administration clearly does not want the housing market to correct.

Many here have talked of high home prices as part of a generational transfer of wealth from a younger generation to an older one. I think what's going on is even more damaging than that, but.... nevertheless, I'd say, end the transfer. Let prices continue to fall, especially on the coasts.

Yes in "many areas" prices have fallen. But when you consider that there are half as many people in Santa Clara County as all of Oklahoma, it's not the "many" housing markets that matter as much as the most highly-populated and most inflated ones.

The generational transfer, or the hope of it, gives many older Americans the hope that they'll escape the worst of what's going to happen. They won't. Stop supporting their delusions, let the youngers acquire assets at their "real" (much lower) prices. And let those who let their inflated asset values tranquilize them come back to reality and start supporting an agenda that supports the well-being of all Americans by redistributing income in a constructive way. I'm afraid it will be called a radical agenda... by the usual suspects.

FHA loans are WMDs. They are here. Not in Iraq.

Rob Dawg wrote:

The administration clearly does not want the housing market to correct.

Remember 2008 everyone. Here's what happens if the housing market corrects in a free market:

(a) More banks go down the toilet
(b) Bond market feels the pain
(c) Interest rates go up
(d) US has trouble rolling over debt.
(e) edit: Commercial paper markets seize
(f) :madmax: :madmax: :madmax:

Dawg, thanks for thoughts, last thread.

But I also think many of the recent FHA buyers will be underwater for a few years...

Theme music: YouTube - we all live in a yellow submarine

Elvis wrote:

Shock therapy is bulldozing. And this time the shock therapy would work. Incidentally, it didn't work for me. Despite my shock therapy, I still make fun of GWB.

I actually think bulldozing would have much less negative effects than allowing housing to correct and killing the financial system.

"Let the housing market crash."

Finally! A coherent voice from out of the wilderness.

Would such a thing make my property worth less? Yes.
Do I care? Nope.
Will such an event put more people out on the street? Yes.
Will Uncle Same then start renting the people their homes back? Yes.
Will it be beneficial to the banks? Nope.
Will it then be carried out? Nope.

Black Star Ranch wrote:

Will it be beneficial to the banks? Nope.

So then is it even worth mentioning? Nope.

Nobody wants more housing gimmicks, yet:

White House to Deploy Broader Mortgage Aid - WSJ.com

You're welcome!

especially those who bought in the last few years under the impression that a turnaround had already begun.

Easily impressed people should not buy houses.

Elvis wrote:

I actually think bulldozing would have much less negative effects than allowing housing to correct and killing the financial system.
It is nice to know that there are more than a few intelligent posters here.

Thanks, although if that was in reference to me, you're getting ahead of yourself. Can we bulldoze and get that through the courts? Nope. So is it worth mentioning....

etc......

Which is worse - bankers or terrorists wrote:

Allowing the can to be kicked down the road to a new administration? You bet

And what a can it is!!

About now, my guess is Obama is looking forward to smoking cigarettes by himself in 2 and a half years.

instead I'd argue to stop trying to support house prices and think jobs, jobs, jobs.

Evidently they were full of with so blame the asslcown Obama economic team who should have done this 18 mo. ago.

Analysts: White House Panicking Over Elections - Face The Nation - CBS News

Generally you don't want to rebuild the ship of state while it is still at sea. You want to pull into dry dock with a plan, contractors, and funding.

What, People actually get holidays off? Man I feel so used and abused.

Black Star Ranch wrote:

Our only choice is the course; via the commuter bus or the non-stop express.

Nobody rides the bus anymore. I suggest you change your metaphor.

longtimelurker wrote:

Interest rates up down in a bond market crash,, not down.

We didn't have a currency based upon electrons in the 30s, lurker.

nova wrote:

Generally you don't want to rebuild the ship of state while it is still at sea. You want to pull into dry dock with a plan, contractors, and funding.

Unless the officers are chasing a white whale and don't care what happens to the passengers. At some point...

With interest rates so low house prices should be increasing. What happens when interest rates rise.

BSR,

I am aware of that too. I just don't see anything appealing about either way. For selfish reasons the more time they take the better off my chances of giving my family more chance to survive and live because this sucker is going down.

Elvis wrote:

Nobody rides the bus anymore. I suggest you change your metaphor.

LOL......Well, I WAS going to use the bull and cow vs. the artificial insemination and manual sperm collection 'metaphor', but 'fingered' the bus analogy would be better absorbed.

comrade mike wrote:

With interest rates so low house prices should be increasing.

With interest in buying homes so low, home prices should be decreasing.

sportsfan wrote:

To repeat it as a command: No one should buy a house expecting to resell it at a profit in the near future.

I will be buying houses in the near future with an expectation of ongoing cash flow and tax benefits. Different micro-economic motivation, same results for the macro market however.

Kauai_Kahuna wrote:

I just can't see the logic in destroying assets while people are homeless, just to save some other peoples assets.

there is none. I agree.

Rob Dawg wrote:

Past returns are no guarantee of future performance.

It is different this time?

For those who tout the glories of free markets (that never were and never will be), it would seem that that they would understand that supply and demand underlie the entire concept, and that price is the way the free market is supposed to adjust supply to demand. But they don't get it, and perhaps don't believe in free markets anyway - it is just a mantra chanted to remove any obstacles to greed and skimming.

In the case of housing, the supply for now is fixed. Demand and price are the variables. Price heavily determines the demand, but other factors apply (fear - generalized and specific, availability of credit, ability to save for down payment, etc.)

I think CR is estimating incorrectly on how much prices of housing must fall to reach equilibrium - nationally and locally. But, what do I know: nothing, really. Just a gut feel that until we get back to something like housing as 30% of income, that the demand reducers won't be removed.

i fully agree with jobs/jobs/jobs as a national priority. But even 4% unemployment won't work if incomes from those jobs are static and the housing ATM plus credit card debt growth are recognized as gone for a good long while.

Income dispersion across the economy is the real factor, IMO. Until that is attacked and fixed we won't have a real recovery that can exist without government's thumb, hand, and body weighing on the scale.

Rob Dawg wrote:

That one had me prostate on the floor.

If that fell on the floor I guess you've had a visit from Allen M's velvet fist of government. Sounds painful.

longtimelurker wrote:

See Japan: real estate crash and low rates, no bond market crash.
If you have predicted an imminent US Govt bond market crash and/or significantly rising rates anytime over the past several years, please raise your hands, because you got it wrong then, and you'll have it wrong now.

It works until it doesn't. See: reserve currency.

The Japanese plan was to export out of the problem to other go-go '90s economies. In the 2010 economy, someone has to import.

Elvis - And I can't see the logic of firing people when other people are out of work.

A nonsense if I have ever saw one. Have fun with your delusions!

Kauai_Kahuna wrote:

Have fun with your delusions!

It is non-sense if you can't comprehend it. I agree. Fortunately, I can comprehend it.

There has been a several decades long trend of population moving from the snow belt to the sun belt. This trend has been supported by rising housing prices, including an increase of jobs in home building in the sun belt states.

Because housing was cheaper in the sun-belt compare to the snow belt, people were able to finance moving to the job creation areas based on home equity wealth. Now with equity shrunk or negative, relocation will be significantly reduced.

No defence left against double-dip recession, says Nouriel Roubini - Telegraph 

Hans-Werner Sinn, head of Germany’s IFO Institute, said the US would have to purge its debt excesses the hard way.

“The bitter truth is that there is no way out of this with monetary and fiscal policy. They will just have to see their living standards go down. I see a decade of difficulties for the US,” he said.

Dr Sinn said the US the market for mortgage securities (CDOs) had collapsed from $1.9 trillion in 2006 to just $50bn last year, leaving the US property market reliant on federal agencies.

JimPortlandOR wrote:

But they don't get it, and perhaps don't believe in free markets anyway - it is just a mantra chanted to remove any obstacles to greed and skimming.

They believe in the free market, yet the result is always the same monopoly capitalism... It's rooted not in the market but in the legal fiction of a corporation.

aleister perdurabo wrote:

Hans-Werner Sinn ... "They will just have to see their living standards go down."

Is he suggesting we buy fewer Mercedes and BMWs?

Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com

Old news for some. But could be the kind of thing to happen once a country is ran by a few crooks.

Hans-Werner Sinn ... "They will just have to see their living standards go down."

He was probably grinning when he said it too

longtimelurker wrote:

Just not a crash in treasuries.

OK, fair enough, but how many trillions of debt does the US has to roll over this decade? And what happens when it can't?

To support you theory, you're going to have to explain how all of the US debt gets rolled over.

Which is worse - bankers or terrorists wrote:

Anyone else see the problem here?

Yes. The value of my yacht will decrease if everybody's living standards fall.

Rajesh wrote:

Does this mean employers in Georgia will have to rely on the products of the George educational system?

No, they will just attract recent college graduates who rent.

Which is worse - bankers or terrorists wrote:

Which stops people from relocating for jobs. Keeping the unemployment rate higher. Prevent household formation. And so on.

interest rates low, little lending because there is little borrowing because there is little lending because there is increasing excess capacity, and thus banks and money market funds and the US Treasury need only offer shrinking rates to depositors and bond buyers because there is nowhere to go make more money from an investment with any degree of safety.

This is not the Goldilocks economy. But it is a Grimme tale all the same.

Rajesh wrote:

Does this mean employers in Georgia will have to rely on the products of the Georgia educational system?

Some of the best HS's in the country are in the South, like Mountain Brook HS near Birmingham, AL. GA probably has a better grade school system than AL, and Georgia Tech is one of the better Engineering schools in the country.

Which is worse - bankers or terrorists wrote:

See, I personally see this as a benefit. The development world's standards go up, the West's go down, and wage arbitrage is reduced. Anyone else see the problem here?

I'd just like to know what lower standards means. No vacation in France, the redwoods instead? One-car families, just a four-door sedan that you nurse along for 10-12 years? No private school for junior? Swimming lessons from the Red Cross instead of the Club? 1200-square-foot houses, or maybe even flats? Packing a lunch? Taking public transit?

That was my childhood. I lived.

Cinco-X wrote:

Some of the best HS's in the country are in the South, like Mountain Brook HS near Birmingham, AL. GA probably has a better grade school system than AL, and Georgia Tech is one of the better Engineering schools in the country.

You are really reaching.

aleister perdurabo wrote:

Dr Sinn said the US the market for mortgage securities (CDOs) had collapsed from $1.9 trillion in 2006 to just $50bn last year, leaving the US property market reliant on federal agencies.

$1,900,000,000,000 to $50,000,000,000?

When the music's over . . . turn out the lights.

YouTube - The Doors - When The Music's Over

Later

The Art of Contrarian Trading: The Worst is Over

Time Magazine Cover:
Rethinking Homeownership
Why owning a home may no longer make economic sense

Bob Dobbs wrote:

That was my childhood. I lived.

Lowering living standards doesn't have to suck. But it will, because it will not happen in any way resembling equal.

nova wrote:

Good bye banks, pension funds, and a people infrastructure build on tax revenues that would fold like a house of cards.

Americans will never be able to rule their nation independently without royalty to guide them. This Revoution is a terrible error.

bANK fAILURE wrote:

Time Magazine Cover:
Rethinking Homeownership
Why owning a home may no longer make economic sense

Housing must have bottomed.

Byzantine_Ruins wrote:

Americans will never be able to rule their nation independently without royalty to guide them. This Revoution is a terrible error.

Indeed. The colonies are doing well enough this year that I think we can raise their rent again, your Majesty.

of course it hasn't, ask everyone you know....same story....worst financial decision you can ever make....right?.

Kauai_Kahuna wrote:

Let it burn, then we can rebuild.

Of course it reminds me of the slogan ( read after the event, not contemporaneously ) : "Burn Baby Burn"

When rioters in Watts, California, began shouting "Burn, Baby! BURN!" in the turmoil of 1965, they were echoing the most popular cry on rhythm-and-blues radio: The trademark of Magnificent Montague, the most exciting R&B disc jockey ever to stroll through Soulsville.
In Los Angeles on KGFJ, and earlier in New York on WWRL, Montague yelled "Burn!" whenever he was playing a record that moved him. His listeners followed suit, calling Montague and shouting "Burn!" on the air. The emotion in that exchange reverberated with as much excitement as the music of Stevie Wonder, Sam Cooke and Otis Redding.

Burn, Baby! Burn!

ANd this , so that like you said , we can "let it grow" .

Yup, let the market crash - if that's where the buyers and sellers determine it must be.

longtimelurker wrote:

When Pandit the Bandit of Citi orders lunch and does not like the wine by the glass selections,

The best part about wine is wine bottles are bigger than beer bottles for bar fights. The worst part about wine is the people you have to drink it with. Unless they are hot women.

bANK fAILURE wrote:

of course it hasn't, ask everyone you know....same story....worst financial decision you can ever make....right?.

You don't get the joke. Or I don't get the snark.

YouTube - Crazy world of arthur brown - fire

irony may be a lost art.

ByzRuin,

So you are saying I should rule that one out? Should we start finding out who on board can swim now or later?

Very true. Another ball and chain for the "sand state" economies.

rosethorn wrote:

Very true. Another ball and chain for the "sand state" economies.

In '06 I called them the immobility class. Doubly so because nowadays you have to move two jobs.

nova wrote:

So you are saying I should rule that one out? Should we start finding out who on board can swim now or later?

Time marches on. Everyone has had several years to take swimming lessons.

We can either do a "graceful" refit while we still have the power to keep the bow to the wind, or we can founder when we lose steerage in the blow.

We'll see. After this election, we will get to watch all the partisans switch sides in the debate as the color of misrule changes. Perhaps after another 2 years of reverses, if there are still decisions to be made and events have not gained the upper hand over volition and carried our ability to choose away, we will be ready to admit that real change is needed.

Kauai_Kahuna wrote:

Be careful of what you wish for, seen the TV show's V? Either the old or new ones.

I know what history says about what happens when people so advanced as to be benevolent aliens arrive. They ain't never benevolent.

Rob Dawg wrote:

That one had me prostate on the floor.

A momentary prolapse of reason, I'm sure.

longtimelurker wrote:

Let's just call them the Sand Trap States.

Quicksand States too obvious, or just too rude?

Vote in my gold poll where we will ask the question on everyone's mind... No not that one

Rob Dawg wrote:

I hope everyone likes their neighbors because nobody is moving for a very long time. The new immobility class has moved in to stay

Dawg, if all they've got left is a busted mortgage, not enough cash, and a bank that may or may not get around to foreclosing in the next year.... they'll move for any damned thing that means hope. That's a fairly good hunk of the population that is, and getting larger. Not to mention the people who bought 25 years ago and are okay with moving to a new job even if they clear "only" $100k these days.

I hear what you're saying... but there's a lot of people who are either too well off or too badly off for it to apply to.

Byzantine_Ruins wrote:

A momentary prolapse of reason, I'm sure.

You can't make that comment and not link to a song.

YouTube - Pink Floyd- Sorrow

• The sweet smell of a great sorrow lies over the land
  Plumes of smoke rise and merge into the leaden sky:
  A man lies and dreams of green fields and rivers,
  But awakes to a morning with no reason for waking

He's haunted by the memory of a lost paradise
In his youth or a dream, he can't be precise
He's chained forever to a world that's departed
It's not enough, it's not enough

His blood has frozen & curdled with fright
His knees have trembled & given way in the night
His hand has weakened at the moment of truth
His step has faltered

One world, one soul
Time pass, the river rolls*

I wouldn't quite phrase it as "let the housing market crash" - instead I'd argue to stop trying to support house prices and think jobs, jobs, jobs

Same logic applies to the auto industry - except we bailed them out - and to banking and credit industries - except we bailed them out. Since all the big guys got bailed out, I guess we just have to still the little guys to pay for it.

Merely grim would be excellent. 5% more would take us to 53% off on average in Miami. 10% to 57% off. I am seeing more off than that for the slightly under mid middle class houses.

lawyerliz wrote:

53% off on average in Miami.

The state of Florida has an urban renewal plan, but so far the hurricanes haven't been cooperating.

Rajesh wrote:

The state of Florida has an urban renewal plan, but so far the hurricanes haven't been cooperating.

If we had hurricanes in California, I can think of a couple hundred mill worth of residential RE that would vanish from the market forever in just a few years; within five miles of here. Wouldn't just be the houses ruined; the lots themselves would be gone.

A two-foot rise in sea level might do the same thing, but more slowly.

Hot off the press - Daily Show well ok, catching up 23rd August edition:
Fox and Friends show , anchor: Gretchen Carlson:

I didn't know what ignoramus meant and so I googled it ..

She really really said that. I started to laugh but yeah we have to weep at this don't we ?

They can't let housing crash without frying the banks and also the Fed. The housing bubble was 'essential' in the first place to prop up a non-existent recovery post dot com. The dry rot is deep.

Mike in Long Island wrote:

You can't make that comment and not link to a song.

How about this one?

YouTube - Rasputina~ Wish You Were Here

After only a bit of ignoramus computer struggle I ordered a t-shirt for me, the hub, and son.

Suggestion, my hub really likes pockets for his pocket protector and pens . If you do this again, can you do one with a pocket?

Bob Dobbs wrote:

Rob Dawg wrote:

I hope everyone likes their neighbors because nobody is moving for a very long time. The new immobility class has moved in to stay
...
I hear what you're saying... but there's a lot of people who are either too well off or too badly off for it to apply to.

Remember that was written over 4 years ago. I should be able to mature my views in light of subsequent outrages.

lawyerliz wrote:

Fox people are only pretending to be stupid,

This is Rupert Murdoch owned network, which is cheaper: hiring stupid people or hiring people smart enough to pretend to be stupid.

Byz,

Thanks for the link - I've not heard of them and their cover of Wish You Were Here was pretty good.

How about this one from Innerpartysystem - its called Don't Stop

"The road I walk is paved in gold
to glorify my platinum soul
I'll buy my way to talk to god
so he can live with what i'm not

the selfish blood runs through my veins
i gave up everything for fame
i am the lie that you adore
i feed the rich and f*** the poor"

YouTube - Innerpartysystem - Don't Stop

lawyerliz wrote:

I have heard of a couple of people who had stopped paying long ago, and just eventually moved out, cause they didn't want to live there any more. Even for free.

lawyerliz wrote:

And it my well be that the Fox people are only pretending to be stupid, in order to maximize the number of people watching the show--gee, they can't be made to feel stupid.

Yah, that crosses my mind too. Really creepy isn't it - if true. Wonder what sort of sting operation ( ala News of the World on the Pakistani cricket match and spot-bet fixing scandal ) one could do to discover the truth of the matter ?

No defence left against double-dip recession, says Nouriel Roubini - Telegraph
Hans-Werner Sinn, head of Germany’s IFO Institute, said the US would have to purge its debt excesses the hard way.
“The bitter truth is that there is no way out of this with monetary and fiscal policy. They will just have to see their living standards go down. I see a decade of difficulties for the US,” he said.

Germany doesn't want the US to become an export country, and serious about exporting. So they shouldn't wish for the permanent collapse of the US consumer.

Rob Dawg wrote:

Remember that was written over 4 years ago. I should be able to mature my views in light of subsequent outrages.

I'll take that as a belated disclaimer.

JimPortlandOR wrote:

i fully agree with jobs/jobs/jobs as a national priority. But even 4% unemployment won't work if incomes from those jobs are static and the housing ATM plus credit card debt growth are recognized as gone for a good long while.

Income dispersion across the economy is the real factor, IMO. Until that is attacked and fixed we won't have a real recovery that can exist without government's thumb, hand, and body weighing on the scale.

Ah, but in our global free trade economy, for every job that will be advertised here in America, there will be 10 jobs advertised elsewhere which promise to do 99% of the U.S. job for 10% of the cost. And for every U.S. worker applying for those jobs here, there are 100 people in the rest of the world who are as well qualified or better, and all of them are willing/forced to work for 1% of what used to be a middle class wage.

Like The Comedian said in Watchmen, the American dream has come true. Or at least, the rest of the world is increasingly competing for their share of it. What will be the result? For the elect .1%, the future's so bright you gotta wear shades!

For the other 99.9%? Uh... ? ? Or maybe just a ?

Rob Dawg wrote:

un-American Insurrection

You will awaken the ghost of Richard Nixon if you say that loudly.

purple wrote:

Germany doesn't want the US to become an export country, and serious about exporting. So they shouldn't wish for the permanent collapse of the US consumer.

Who in the world would the US export to? The US keeps its position because if there wasn't a dumping ground for all the crap, people would have to come face to face with the fantastic amount of overcapacity in the global capital structure. The reason we can play kick the can is because factors abroad can't stop.

"Buy a house. Get a green card."
Support INCREASED immigration into the USA.

Everybody can't export to the US and never import from anybody.

Therefore, it will stop.

davebarnes wrote:

"Buy a house. Get a green card."

Buy a Green card. Get two free houses.

Cute, but what would those terms be?

Buy an American housekeeper, get the house.

lawyerliz wrote:

Everybody can't export to the US and never import from anybody. Therefore, it will stop.

Someway, somehow, it will become cheaper again to make most things -- most items for personal daily use, at least -- within a thousand or two miles of the point of consumption; within the same country. Maybe even within ten or 50 or 100 miles for many things.

I don't say how it's going to happen. I just say that it probably will.

I see housing as a cancerous testicle. Leave it there and it will kill you.

Well if you have another one, I guess it's ok.

un air conditioned shut tight Florida houses rot pretty fast.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2490203/The-Federal-Reserve-Monster-1922

Byzantine_Ruins wrote:

Leveraged M&A bubble, coming right up.

Capital flows will go from astronomical to ... intractable debt, but who cares, since they have no intention of paying it back anyway.

"Buy a house. Get a green card."
Support INCREASED immigration into the USA.

IF they bring their own funds through retirement. Because there are too few jobs available as it is.

What might make the Fed flinch? - International Business Times

China may offer a big clue about whether U.S. imports really are subsiding. It is scheduled to release trade figures for August on Friday, and those are likely to show another month of explosive gains in exports. Economists polled by Reuters think China's exports rose 35 percent, while imports increased a relatively modest 26.1 percent.

lawyerliz wrote:

un air conditioned shut tight Florida houses rot pretty fast.

My evil mind is spinning with ways to hurry that along. Hazmat employment for everybody.

I told you I loved your Siamese cat, right dawg?

Let me say that I consider the R&D tax credit an example of corporate welfare at its most extreme.

I think research and development is important but only if it pays for itself. Most small business can't take advantage of this credit but big corporations who aren't paying much in taxes anyway because they aren't recognizing profits from destroying American jobs will dig in to this buffet.

Hey Bob D - my friends are about to buy a 920 sq ft house in SC, for $706 a sq ft, that is a fixer....waddya think? Should I just buy them a gun for christmas?

Bullshit, absolutely wrong....make it permanent. the extension process and timeline for capture create more noise in an area that is sadly lacking for American Companies.

If a bank fails on Friday and no one shows up to close it, does it really fail?

GDD9000 wrote:

Hey Bob D - my friends are about to buy a 920 sq ft house in SC, for $706 a sq ft, that is a fixer....waddya think? Should I just buy them a gun for christmas?

To use on each other? Unless that sucker's in downtown Capitola on a one-acre lot -- or 50 yards from a prime surfing beach -- they sound like they've been blinded by the lifestyle. And even then, housing prices around them will be sagging south slowly. That bargain might not be a bargain in a year or two.

Dont be offended Rajesh, I actually enjoy much of what you have to say. But you are on wrong on the R&D tax credit.

Rajesh wrote:

Friends don't let friends buy overpriced real estate.

So, we don't have and friends in the US?

lawyerliz wrote:

Listing is good, but I don't think it's what you meant.

You are right-- I have been gardening all day at my collective-- I need a glass of wine.

@Rajesh:

I think we do a fantastic job of manufacturing things people need: 1. We pay farmers to produce less 2. We have plethora of housing 3. Yes, we've gutted our textile industry but there is still one there 4. Every time I go to the tap, nice potable water comes pouring out .

Everything else can be measured by a degree of want. Economists call it "utility".

adornosghost wrote:

it is sad that in many parts of the US ,Developers are actually admired.

Maybe compared to bankers or accountants?

MrM wrote:

Maybe compared to bankers or accountants?

Good point. At least they are doing something, even if they are too dumb or sociopathic to realize the results of their actions.

Bob Dobbs wrote:

Maybe someday we'll have a society that realizes that "growth" and "progress" are not the same thing.

They have to be, in an artificial, inflationary monetary system.

Bob Dobbs wrote:

Maybe someday we'll have a society that realizes that "growth" and "progress" are not the same thing. At that point, maybe demolition men will be highly respected.

Living on a finite planet, and having the need to expand, it won't be an option.
Any smart 10 year old can easily explain it to you.

MrM wrote:

Oh, well, the vagaries of the free market...

Free Gold (sort of)--
Fish Feet: Australian couple find floating gold

I had to break out my for that bull case. We should be so lucky for that type of policy response.

adornosghost wrote:

Any smart 10 year old can easily explain it to you.

Too bad our government isn't run by smart ten-year-olds.

Read my lips: Know new taxes !!

rps wrote:

1. Auction land to rebuild with government "perks" 3. This restarts the economy from building homes and jobs. Same for commercial real estate strip malls....bulldoze and rebuild.

I would offer subsidies to rebuild them as ultra-energy efficient. With further subsidies for using alternative construction tech -- straw bale, modified concrete, whatever else the national labs have cooked up lately.

Mike_PNW wrote:

It's funny that we know how to count them but have no idea of how to get them to leave once they are here.

"We" know, but "we" (meaning business) don't want them to go. There's a (voluntary) gov't program that makes it pretty easy to check the citizenship status of any prospective employee, separate from whatever massaged paperwork they bring with them. Almost no one uses it. The immigration debate is nothing but to keep the masses happy.

Gulf Coast homeowners will take big hit due to BP oil spill - Canton, OH - CantonRep.com

Their reports suggest that it will push housing prices in the region down $3 billion, or perhaps even more than $4 billion in the next several years.

BP gave vouchers for vacationers to use at Gulf Coast hotel, and they were full up.

Get out the checkbook for people living along the coast.

Will dream of s and s and s and s.

lol. a thread tailor-made for patientrenter, and he's nowhere to be found.

ROR, Read my Rips...

Helicopter Ben can still PRINT LIKE MAD.

Then assets can catch up nominally. The only hope.

Federal Reserve dont print last I checked with Treasury.

km4 wrote:

Let The Good Times Roll

Thanks I needed that!

Hows that Mark to Belvedere in Walnut Creek working out?

some investor guy - I've run a few numbers on this. I think they will take down about 3 million housing units, starting in 2012 and finishing in 2015.

As long as they pull the same permits needed by joe6pack, it's a win win, it will also provide jobs in HAZMAT disposal which many of our returning soldiers have experience in.
But it's all a farce because I work in a building with asbestos, and they can't touch it because it's a historical building. (I don't know why, it was built during WWII, not before the attack.)

For all of those who cry for a return of manufacturing to the US, consider this little tidbit I Copied from a Bloomberg news report two hours ago

"Foxconn said last month it may hire as many as 400,000 workers, more than triple the combined workforces of Microsoft Corp. and Apple, and boost its number of employees to as high as 1.3 million.

BUT !!

Gou said he’s considering building a fully-automated factory in the U.S. as part of plans to expand production in the country and reduce Foxconn’s reliance on labor. The company, which currently assembles computer servers in Houston, Texas, will probably make components and finished products at factories in the U.S. within five years, he said.

“If I can have automation in the U.S., then ship to China, the cost-price would still be competitive,” Gou said.

"........and see how mad they got when 3 buildings of some rich guys got knocked over."

".......bulldoze and rebuild........"

......I don't know what some of you are ingesting, but I surely don't any part of it........

ldmeier wrote:

Today assuming stable pricing, you are likely 6% underwater or more the day you close (The real estate commission if nothing else) more likley 7-9% underwater. This sort of argues for a minimum 10% down so that you don't walk out of closing underwater.

True, but I don't have a real problem with a 3.5% down payment or whatever the going rate is these days.

Coincidentally, I don't have a problem with a house owner being 'underwater.' The owner just has to realize that before buying and be prepared either to be there for a while or, if not, to realize lower net proceeds on the way out.

A little more education over the past decade probably would have given us fewer foreclosures these days.

Speedy foreclosure is fine. Right after we take the banks off welfare.

Not before.

Formaldehyde never hurt anybody that was already dead...

ldmeier wrote:

I think the new rule of thumb should be that unless you plan to stay 6-7 years in a place rent.

Sounds about right to me, too.

During the oil-patch bust in the 80's in Texas, I heard if you bought a toaster, they'd give you a free bank.

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The booming Dallas-Fort Worth metropolitan area added more residents during the past decade than any other city in the United States.

According to the latest Census Bureau figures, the population of the sprawling Texas metro area grew by about 1.3 million people, or 25%, between April 1, 2000, and July 1, 2009.

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The population is now estimated at 6.5 million residents, but an exact count won't be available until the 2010 census is complete.

The Palm Coast metro area in Florida had the highest percentage increase in growth. Its population exploded by 84% over the nine-years-plus covered by the Census Bureau report. But even after the jump there were only about 92,000 people living in the area.

Dallas's attractions include a very favorable business climate, according to Mayor Tom Leppert. There's no corporate income tax, building costs are relatively reasonable and regulations are minimal.

"It's a great place to do business," he said, "especially attractive for companies from high-tax states."

Helping to drive growth is the area's main airport, Dallas/Fort Worth International, the third busiest in the nation. Its location is far enough south to ensure good weather yet central enough to make it easy to fly to the Northeast, the Midwest and the Pacific Coast. It is also well positioned for air traffic with Latin American markets.

"Dallas has no port," said Leppert. "The airport became a 21st century port."

What it has lacked in the past -- a vibrant downtown -- is starting to develop. Recent additions include a huge new arts center, urban park, light rail system and new housing. These have bolstered the city's density and made downtown more interesting and fun.

I wonder if a localized rise in housing prices will happen soon in the DFW area as a countertrend to the bubble states price collapse ?

America has turned into a place of economic apartheid, as the coasts can move inland, but the middle can't move there.

We'll see...

ross perot is lookin more and more smart all the time

watch the vid to the end or skip ahead...he nails it

back in 92 we were told the truth, that the country would be brought down

but we chose to listen to sweat nothings soothing sounds

americans cant handle the truth

YouTube - Giant Sucking Sound - Ross Perot 1992 Presidential Debate.flv

Anonymous Bosch wrote:

[Streitfeld quote] "But an unchecked drop of 10 percent or more might prove entirely discouraging to the millions of owners who are just hanging on, especially those who bought in the last few years under the impression that a turnaround had already begun."

Once you start lying it's very difficult to stop.

I didn't think much of Streitfeld's article and I happen to think the part of it you quoted is just plain stupid.

Does anyone here know anyone at all who bought a house under the impression that a turnaround had already begun?

mock turtle wrote:

ross perot is lookin more and more smart all the time

It really needs to be said doesn't it. When looking at what's best for the proverbial working-class US man/woman, a calibrated protectionism has to be done. Calibrated cos you have to find a way to make alliances, to duck and dive to minimize retaliatory behaviours. But that's what MBA's and marketing and advertising degrees are for - to sell the unspeakable - to sell it ABROAD and throw some angel dust in other countries eyes.

But I forgot - there are no working class humans in the USA - they are all middle class.

Not sure about people being enticed by a turnaround in housing. But one of our LVN"s is thrilled that she got into this program in a southern San Diego suburb

The City's proposed plan as submitted to HUD can now be viewed at the links above, including an update on 9/5/09 which expanded the eligible target areas for assistance. The City of Chula Vista identified two NSP eligible programs, as follows:
NSP First-Time Homebuyer Program - providing up to $70,000 in down payment and closing cost assistance towards the purchase of a foreclosed property within targeted neighborhoods in Chula Vista.  If you earn under $86,500 (family of 4) and are a first-time homebuyer (have not owned property within the past 3 years) you may qualify.  To learn more about the NSP First-Time Homebuyer Program, click here.

sportsfan wrote:

Does anyone here know anyone at all who bought a house under the impression that a turnaround had already begun?

I don't know anyone who's bought a house - period - sportsfan.

Nonetheless that doesn't negate the rosy projections that constitute the pretend portion of extend-and-pretend ever since the shit hit the fan... which are for the most part what people have for so-called information from the MSM.

Citizen AllenM wrote:

Just had dinner with a power couple that is buying another house (their fourth) in Anthem AZ,

Anthem ? that's the hyper-suburbia one passes on the way out of Phoenix on the I17 to Prescott right ? If so, I've made 4 passes thru it in the last 3 years everytime I visit a friend in Prescott. Its appalling man. I really want to see Chandler to compare but that's on the other side of Phoenix.

Does anyone here know anyone at all who bought a house under the impression that a turnaround had already begun?

The only people under the impression that a turnaround had already begun, are strictly would-be sellers...

Citizen AllenM wrote:

Just had dinner with a power couple that is buying another house (their fourth) in Anthem AZ, which they are going to live in. Buying 'em cheap and renting them out after they live in them for a year or two.

I recall a CR statement about a guy who had bought 100 single family houses in the Phoenix area. As I recall he had averaged a purchase price of $30,000. No telling what condition they were in or where they were located.

I wasn't referring to investors who want to be residential landlords. I was referring to Streitfeld's poor suckers who were duped into believing there was a massive V shaped recovery just around the corner, so they bought the new family home. There aren't any of them.

BTW I looked at a shell office building and adjacent inline retail in Anthem. Really nice construction and offered at a seriously good price. I just wasn't sure where the tenants would be coming from, given the available space in town. I liked what I saw in Anthem, though, it just got a little ahead of itself.

I agree with the gist of what you are saying, but I also think the detail of our difference is important for the following reason:

the problem was not NAFTA, nor other trade agreements. Rather, it was elsewhere: the doctrinaire opposition to industrial policy, and the class & free market ideology opposition to workers' rights.